her name is yn
Emerging Butterfly
stays when i try to name her. tried to put a br in front of it so
could call her bryn. no go. it's yn. guess can pronounce it like eon?
just know her name is those two letters.
never talked about her as separate alter before. want to now.
she is the one who sees huge huge drama in everything and goes
hysterical inside. she's responsible for a lot of the ab*se coming to
the fore of mind.
she also seems responsible for making things bigger than they are.
she made up the playground bully stories when i was a kid, and she
took a certain sick pleasure in being a victim -- think that was
planted by m*m?
we think she's the one who made todd out to be such an ab*ser, and
steven.
she seems to freak out at the smallest things, and believe our life as
actually in danger.
she is so dramatic. we really dislike her.
todd was really nice and pretty sensitive and stuff. yn takes one
moment of forgetting what's happening, or one comment that sounds
slightly insensitive, and tilts it to make it all *vil and dangerous.
trying to think what else she does.....
think she's the one who decided C and sarah were somehow capable of
m*rder, just because sarah was watching something where a daughter
burned down father's house with delight in her eyes.
yn likes being the victim and making everything in our life some kinda
lifetime movie moment.
we don't like her.
and we dislike that when we do bdsm, she has the need to talk about
danger and screaming when there are ways to be safe.
yn likes to talk and make big stories.
yn likes to dramatize.
yn likes to freak out other insiders.
yn saw a bl**d stain on our mattress at 16 when we were having
memories and screamed inside, as if the stain meant we had been r*ped.
we hadn't been. it was just from our cycle.
cometz
did you ever stop to think that maybe her assessments and distress are
appropriate? have you considered that she may be representative of
many others of you and that she is expressing their desires and fears?
have you considered that she is trying to protect all of you?
just wondering.
astri
bet there's a middle ground.
seems you've just set yourselves up to claim that nothing ever happened
and that your life was really rosey and wonderful.
-- astri
======================
to email send to astri
======================
at volcano dot org
======================
Emerging Butterfly
> On Nov 1, 11:21 pm, Emerging Butterfly
>
>
>
> <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > i don't know why it's yn, but it seems to be the name that stubbornly
> > stays when i try to name her. tried to put a br in front of it so
> > could call her bryn. no go. it's yn. guess can pronounce it like eon?
> > just know her name is those two letters.
>
> > never talked about her as separate alter before. want to now.
>
> did you ever stop to think that maybe her assessments and distress are
> appropriate? have you considered that she may be representative of
> many others of you and that she is expressing their desires and fears?
> have you considered that she is trying to protect all of you?
well, i wrote this post and realized the stuff i was saying about her
was pretty critical. i worry cuz she seems to have so much "drama",
but maybe that's cuz others of us minimize so it's hard to get an
accurate assessment of things?
i still feel like she's overdramatic and maybe pr*grammed to freak out
about little thigns.
open to feedback.
>
> just wondering.
Emerging Butterfly
maybe we were neglected some as a child.
maybe everything wasn't perfect.
nor was it constant ab*se though.
and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
i don't think yn has it right.
if she hadn't existed in my childhood i wouldn't ahve accused my rents
of all these vile horrible nasty things.
i don't knwo why she is.
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>well, i wrote this post and realized the stuff i was saying about her
>was pretty critical. i worry cuz she seems to have so much "drama",
>but maybe that's cuz others of us minimize so it's hard to get an
>accurate assessment of things?
think that's fairly likely to be a factor.
>i still feel like she's overdramatic and maybe pr*grammed to freak out
>about little thigns.
>open to feedback.
it's possible. in just about any sphere of human affairs, extremes in
either direction do tend to generate extremes in the other direction.
however, she appears not to be alone in freaking out about things.
that suggests that they're not so little as you would like to believe.
& certainly some of the things which you guys seem to accept as o.k.
strike me as rather scary.
someone once said to me something to the effect that the way to
understand someone is to look for the truth in what they're saying.
(looking as an active process. it's not always easy.) it might be
useful if you guys could do that with one another.
Baba Yaga
--
External things are no more like the perceptions they give rise to,
than wine is similar to intoxication, or opium to the delirium which
it produces.
- John Playfair
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>maybe we were neglected some as a child.
>maybe everything wasn't perfect.
>nor was it constant ab*se though.
>and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
*Steven* cool?
not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. and on
that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>i don't think yn has it right.
>if she hadn't existed in my childhood i wouldn't ahve accused my rents
>of all these vile horrible nasty things.
>i don't knwo why she is.
might be an important thing to discover.
wonder if she knows why you are?
Emerging Butterfly
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> alt.support.dissociation:
>
> >well, i wrote this post and realized the stuff i was saying about her
> >was pretty critical. i worry cuz she seems to have so much "drama",
> >but maybe that's cuz others of us minimize so it's hard to get an
> >accurate assessment of things?
>
> think that's fairly likely to be a factor.
yeah
>
> >i still feel like she's overdramatic and maybe pr*grammed to freak out
> >about little thigns.
> >open to feedback.
>
> it's possible. in just about any sphere of human affairs, extremes in
> either direction do tend to generate extremes in the other direction.
true
>
> however, she appears not to be alone in freaking out about things.
who else?
> that suggests that they're not so little as you would like to believe.
> & certainly some of the things which you guys seem to accept as o.k.
> strike me as rather scary.
oh
>
> someone once said to me something to the effect that the way to
> understand someone is to look for the truth in what they're saying.
oh
> (looking as an active process. it's not always easy.) it might be
> useful if you guys could do that with one another.
she used to make up outright lies about being bullied someone would
look at her wrong and she'd make a whole story out of it
but think that was at m*m's insistence
she *needed* us to bring home big issues
and never imply that the issues were in the home
so if we looked upset we had to make up something for her
she was kinda munchhausen biproxy but not necessarily all m*dical --
like needing us to be victimized so she could be the savior and the
loving p*rent and the advocate and such
she's sick
i hate her
(the m*ther)
so much black and hate right now
is hard
Emerging Butterfly
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> alt.support.dissociation:
>
> >maybe we were neglected some as a child.
> >maybe everything wasn't perfect.
> >nor was it constant ab*se though.
> >and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
>
> *Steven* cool?
> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. and on
> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
from his post here?
why a creep?
>
> >i don't think yn has it right.
> >if she hadn't existed in my childhood i wouldn't ahve accused my rents
> >of all these vile horrible nasty things.
> >i don't knwo why she is.
>
> might be an important thing to discover.
> wonder if she knows why you are?
good question
we were set up as hating each other young
"she" was a compulsion we couldn't stop
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>On Nov 2, 3:57?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
[...]
>> however, she appears not to be alone in freaking out about things.
>
>who else?
would be hard to say, 'cause not all of you use ames, and there seems
to be quite a bit of age-sliding.
just have clear impression of more than one of you, with different
outlooks and sensibilities.
some littles very clearly freaked at times.
>> that suggests that they're not so little as you would like to believe.
>> & certainly some of the things which you guys seem to accept as o.k.
>> strike me as rather scary.
>
>oh
truly so.
>> someone once said to me something to the effect that the way to
>> understand someone is to look for the truth in what they're saying.
>
>oh
>
>> (looking as an active process. ?it's not always easy.) ?it might be
>> useful if you guys could do that with one another.
>
>she used to make up outright lies about being bullied someone would
>look at her wrong and she'd make a whole story out of it
do you know that they were lies from her p.o.v.?
could they have been an attempt to makes sense of things?
>but think that was at m*m's insistence
>she *needed* us to bring home big issues
>and never imply that the issues were in the home
blech.
>so if we looked upset we had to make up something for her
ah. self-defence. o.k., that could make sense.
>she was kinda munchhausen biproxy but not necessarily all m*dical --
>like needing us to be victimized so she could be the savior and the
>loving p*rent and the advocate and such
>she's sick
>i hate her
>(the m*ther)
would too.
>so much black and hate right now
>is hard
extremely.
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>On Nov 2, 3:58?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>> >maybe we were neglected some as a child.
>> >maybe everything wasn't perfect.
>> >nor was it constant ab*se though.
>> >and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
>>
>> *Steven* cool?
>> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. ?and on
>> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>
>from his post here?
>why a creep?
hmm.
blatant attempt at manipulating the group.
invalidating you-collectively. speaking of you as if you were a
child.
presenting himself as a white knight. & that's creepy when it's real,
never mind as a pose.
minimising his treatment of you.
think that's enough to be going on with.
>> >i don't think yn has it right.
>> >if she hadn't existed in my childhood i wouldn't ahve accused my rents
>> >of all these vile horrible nasty things.
>> >i don't knwo why she is.
>>
>> might be an important thing to discover.
>> wonder if she knows why you are?
>
>good question
>we were set up as hating each other young
8-(
>"she" was a compulsion we couldn't stop
why did you need to stop her?
Emerging Butterfly
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> alt.support.dissociation:
>
>
>
> >On Nov 2, 3:57?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
> [...]
> >> however, she appears not to be alone in freaking out about things.
>
> >who else?
>
> would be hard to say, 'cause not all of you use ames, and there seems
> to be quite a bit of age-sliding.
true
> just have clear impression of more than one of you, with different
> outlooks and sensibilities.
okay
> some littles very clearly freaked at times.
but he says that's cuz of their memories
>
> >> that suggests that they're not so little as you would like to believe.
> >> & certainly some of the things which you guys seem to accept as o.k.
> >> strike me as rather scary.
>
> >oh
>
> truly so.
yeah.
>
> >> someone once said to me something to the effect that the way to
> >> understand someone is to look for the truth in what they're saying.
>
> >oh
>
> >> (looking as an active process. ?it's not always easy.) ?it might be
> >> useful if you guys could do that with one another.
>
> >she used to make up outright lies about being bullied someone would
> >look at her wrong and she'd make a whole story out of it
>
> do you know that they were lies from her p.o.v.?
> could they have been an attempt to makes sense of things?
no, it was....
like, she *needed* to escalate the story.
she *needed* the sense of being a victim
so she could get attention and sympathy
>
> >but think that was at m*m's insistence
> >she *needed* us to bring home big issues
> >and never imply that the issues were in the home
>
> blech.
>
> >so if we looked upset we had to make up something for her
>
> ah. self-defence. o.k., that could make sense.
yeah.
at some point we even lost the desire and knew we were lying but not
why. see the reasons clearly now with m*m.
> >(the m*ther)
>
> would too.
thanks.
>
> >so much black and hate right now
> >is hard
>
> extremely.
can't breathe or see.
Emerging Butterfly
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> alt.support.dissociation:
>
> >On Nov 2, 3:58?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
> >> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> >> alt.support.dissociation:
>
> >> >maybe we were neglected some as a child.
> >> >maybe everything wasn't perfect.
> >> >nor was it constant ab*se though.
> >> >and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
>
> >> *Steven* cool?
> >> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. ?and on
> >> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>
> >from his post here?
> >why a creep?
>
> hmm.
> blatant attempt at manipulating the group.
> invalidating you-collectively. speaking of you as if you were a
> child.
> presenting himself as a white knight. & that's creepy when it's real,
> never mind as a pose.
> minimising his treatment of you.
oh
often talked about me as if i was some very burdensome person he was
kind enough to give his time to
didn't like being diminished that way
his clinging to how kind and wonderful he was
and how i caused him to lose control
>
> think that's enough to be going on with.
thanks for all that
> >good question
> >we were set up as hating each other young
>
> 8-(
interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it says we
were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was intentional set-
up. just a curious way that i described that.
>
> >"she" was a compulsion we couldn't stop
>
> why did you need to stop her?
she's a *liar*
i remember in first grade lunging to and from the bathroom over and
over
saying i was sick
i wasn't sick
i was just going in and out of the bathroom and trying to get
attention for being sick
but....
guess something was deeply wrong for me to need to make up such simple
lies as being sick
was clearly suffering anyway
teacher hated me
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>On Nov 2, 5:26?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Nov 2, 3:57?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> [...]
>> >> however, she appears not to be alone in freaking out about things.
>>
>> >who else?
>>
>> would be hard to say, 'cause not all of you use ames, and there seems
>> to be quite a bit of age-sliding.
>
>true
>
>> just have clear impression of more than one of you, with different
>> outlooks and sensibilities.
>
>okay
>
>> some littles very clearly freaked at times.
>
>but he says that's cuz of their memories
certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
world.
if it was Sukey Sunshine, we'd scoop her up and carry her away and
promise her we'd never let that happen to her again.
can't do that for your littles. 8-(
>> >> that suggests that they're not so little as you would like to believe.
>> >> & certainly some of the things which you guys seem to accept as o.k.
>> >> strike me as rather scary.
>>
>> >oh
>>
>> truly so.
>
>yeah.
>
>>
>> >> someone once said to me something to the effect that the way to
>> >> understand someone is to look for the truth in what they're saying.
>>
>> >oh
>>
>> >> (looking as an active process. ?it's not always easy.) ?it might be
>> >> useful if you guys could do that with one another.
>>
>> >she used to make up outright lies about being bullied someone would
>> >look at her wrong and she'd make a whole story out of it
>>
>> do you know that they were lies from her p.o.v.?
>> could they have been an attempt to makes sense of things?
>
>no, it was....
>like, she *needed* to escalate the story.
>she *needed* the sense of being a victim
>so she could get attention and sympathy
because she wasn't getting it for the, um, unescalated things which
needed attention and sympathy?
or because big real things weren't safe to get sympathy for?
>> >but think that was at m*m's insistence
>> >she *needed* us to bring home big issues
>> >and never imply that the issues were in the home
>>
>> blech.
>>
>> >so if we looked upset we had to make up something for her
>>
>> ah. ?self-defence. ?o.k., that could make sense.
>
>yeah.
>at some point we even lost the desire and knew we were lying but not
>why. see the reasons clearly now with m*m.
<<sigh>>
>> >(the m*ther)
>>
>> would too.
>
>thanks.
>
>>
>> >so much black and hate right now
>> >is hard
>>
>> extremely.
>
>can't breathe or see.
8-(
have you got soft drinks? can you get one and try to really taste it,
and feel the fizziness? might not help, but sometimes things like
that do.
Baba Yaga
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>On Nov 2, 5:35?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>> >On Nov 2, 3:58?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> >> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> >> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>> >> >maybe we were neglected some as a child.
>> >> >maybe everything wasn't perfect.
>> >> >nor was it constant ab*se though.
>> >> >and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
>>
>> >> *Steven* cool?
>> >> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. ?and on
>> >> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>>
>> >from his post here?
>> >why a creep?
>>
>> hmm.
>> blatant attempt at manipulating the group.
>> invalidating you-collectively. ?speaking of you as if you were a
>> child.
>> presenting himself as a white knight. ?& that's creepy when it's real,
>> never mind as a pose.
>> minimising his treatment of you.
>
>oh
>often talked about me as if i was some very burdensome person he was
>kind enough to give his time to
yep.
>didn't like being diminished that way
no.
it *is diminishing.
have been on the receiving end often enough to know that it also
represents complete fked-upness of the person representing things that
way. healthy-enough people do nt behave that way - and infact,
generally don't engage in relationships like that.
>his clinging to how kind and wonderful he was
>and how i caused him to lose control
well, that is b'll'cks.
>> think that's enough to be going on with.
>
>thanks for all that
yw.
>> >good question
>> >we were set up as hating each other young
>>
>> 8-(
>
>interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it says we
>were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was intentional set-
>up. just a curious way that i described that.
yes, it was.
can be hard to know. seems that there was some deliberate sabotage,
but also that you/s sometimes infer deliberation where perhaps it
wasn't.
>>
>> >"she" was a compulsion we couldn't stop
>>
>> why did you need to stop her?
>
>she's a *liar*
that's not entirely an answer to the question.
>i remember in first grade lunging to and from the bathroom over and
>over
>saying i was sick
>i wasn't sick
>i was just going in and out of the bathroom and trying to get
>attention for being sick
>but....
>guess something was deeply wrong for me to need to make up such simple
>lies as being sick
if it was to that extent, very likely. & especially since it's pretty
plain to me that much *was wrong.
children quite often milk or exaggerate real pains, partly because
things which adults perceive as small are big in the life of a very
young person, and partly, I think, to reassure themselves that their
adults will take their pains seriously. if they have siblings with
whom the have to vie for attention, they also learn that, when
something important is wrong, thaat pushes their claim for adult
attention to the front of the queue, so they try it on a bit. (animals
do the same.) but it's generally very mild.
if a child's needing to go back and forth to the bathroom with his
pretended or exaggerated ailment - if a child has the focussed
attention to do that - I would infer he's in need of attention he
isn't getting, or a dependanility his adults aren't showing.
>was clearly suffering anyway
>teacher hated me
<<sigh>>
never quite understand that mindset in people who've chosen to work
with children. but then, I don't want to.
emerging butterfly
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> alt.support.dissociation:
>
>> On Nov 2, 5:35?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>>
>> often talked about me as if i was some very burdensome person he was
>> kind enough to give his time to
>
> yep.
>
>> didn't like being diminished that way
>
> no.
> it *is diminishing.
> have been on the receiving end often enough to know that it also
> represents complete fked-upness of the person representing things that
> way. healthy-enough people do nt behave that way - and infact,
> generally don't engage in relationships like that.
oh
that means maybe i have to let go of wanting to be "cared for" in some
of the ways the kids crave.
>
>> his clinging to how kind and wonderful he was
>> and how i caused him to lose control
>
> well, that is b'll'cks.
yeah.
idk
he always said it was my fault
i know from a distance that's common ab*ser talk
hard from inside it
>
>>> think that's enough to be going on with.
>> thanks for all that
>
> yw.
>
>>>> good question
>>>> we were set up as hating each other young
>>> 8-(
>> interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it says we
>> were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was intentional set-
>> up. just a curious way that i described that.
>
> yes, it was.
> can be hard to know. seems that there was some deliberate sabotage,
> but also that you/s sometimes infer deliberation where perhaps it
> wasn't.
hmm. could you say more on that please?
>
>
>>>> "she" was a compulsion we couldn't stop
>>> why did you need to stop her?
>> she's a *liar*
>
> that's not entirely an answer to the question.
heh
seemed like answer to us
liars need to stop lying
>
>> i remember in first grade lunging to and from the bathroom over and
>> over
>> saying i was sick
>> i wasn't sick
>> i was just going in and out of the bathroom and trying to get
>> attention for being sick
>> but....
>> guess something was deeply wrong for me to need to make up such simple
>> lies as being sick
>
> if it was to that extent, very likely. & especially since it's pretty
> plain to me that much *was wrong.
>
> children quite often milk or exaggerate real pains, partly because
> things which adults perceive as small are big in the life of a very
> young person, and partly, I think, to reassure themselves that their
> adults will take their pains seriously. if they have siblings with
> whom the have to vie for attention, they also learn that, when
> something important is wrong, thaat pushes their claim for adult
> attention to the front of the queue, so they try it on a bit. (animals
> do the same.) but it's generally very mild.
hmm
we never said were sick at home
tried it at school
people just got mad anyway
no one cared no matter how much i did that
>
> if a child's needing to go back and forth to the bathroom with his
> pretended or exaggerated ailment - if a child has the focussed
> attention to do that - I would infer he's in need of attention he
> isn't getting, or a dependanility his adults aren't showing.
but no one was there for me, which makes me wonder why i did that --
hoping someone would suddenly care? clearly, no one did
i don't even know what i was looking for
>
>> was clearly suffering anyway
>> teacher hated me
>
> <<sigh>>
> never quite understand that mindset in people who've chosen to work
> with children. but then, I don't want to.
she was cruel
i remember the first day looking at all the pics of clowns in her room
hearing her tell us all how she loves clowns
and as a first grader on my first day of school i *knew* that her "love
of clowns" was a lie - that she was just trying to sound child-friendly
she hated me
she hated my mom
wish she'd seen it for what it was
but she just hated us both and the "drama" we brought
>
> Baba Yaga
emerging butterfly
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> alt.support.dissociation:
>
>> On Nov 2, 5:26?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 2, 3:57?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>> [...]
>>> some littles very clearly freaked at times.
>> but he says that's cuz of their memories
>
> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
> world.
ohh
even if it's safe sane consensual?
> if it was Sukey Sunshine, we'd scoop her up and carry her away and
> promise her we'd never let that happen to her again.
> can't do that for your littles. 8-(
thank you
we've tried
we've tried an adult said with last person when we ended up crying on
his floor
well one of the kids was *screaming* inside "michaela! i need you!" and
michaela cried and said "i'm so sorry kiddo - i didn't know" and we had
him take us home
and we stopped
but we can't all seem to stop
is huge willfulness when we get into this
even now we wanna get out
but part of us is furious she spent all this time working on finding
people to play with and now we wanna sabotage it
she always acts like she's living on borrowed time when she's out
so she's extremely frenetic and quick
>>> do you know that they were lies from her p.o.v.?
>>> could they have been an attempt to makes sense of things?
>> no, it was....
>> like, she *needed* to escalate the story.
>> she *needed* the sense of being a victim
>> so she could get attention and sympathy
>
> because she wasn't getting it for the, um, unescalated things which
> needed attention and sympathy?
>
> or because big real things weren't safe to get sympathy for?
i think it's the second one
and m*m's deep need to have stuff to rescue bro and i from
was like we weren't doing our job if we didn't bring her home terrible
stories
>> can't breathe or see.
>
> 8-(
>
> have you got soft drinks? can you get one and try to really taste it,
> and feel the fizziness? might not help, but sometimes things like
> that do.
not a bad idea
thanks
we wanna go to bookstore but everything is pretty fuzzy and it spins
easily and head hurts
so might stay home
>
> Baba Yaga
>
> Baba Yaga
astri
sigh
think you're minimizing as much as she's "overdramatic"
Emerging Butterfly
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > On Nov 1, 11:07 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>
> sigh
>
> think you're minimizing as much as she's "overdramatic"
um, if i minimize it's only very slightly :P
astri
>
>> some littles very clearly freaked at times.
>
> but he says that's cuz of their memories
such easy invalidation
astri
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> alt.support.dissociation:
>
>> we were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was intentional
>> set- up. just a curious way that i described that.
>
> yes, it was.
> can be hard to know. seems that there was some deliberate sabotage,
> but also that you/s sometimes infer deliberation where perhaps it
> wasn't.
think it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not
think searching for their intentions interferes
need to deal with fact of mutual hate
regardless of reason for it
astri
> Baba Yaga wrote:
>>
>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
>> world.
>
> ohh
> even if it's safe sane consensual?
can't be with the littles around
not ever
astri
> On Nov 2, 9:43 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> On Nov 1, 11:07 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> sigh
>>
>> think you're minimizing as much as she's "overdramatic"
>
> um, if i minimize it's only very slightly :P
:P~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Emerging Butterfly
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
> > Baba Yaga wrote:
>
> >> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
> >> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
> >> world.
>
> > ohh
> > even if it's safe sane consensual?
>
> can't be with the littles around
> not ever
but da lils are the ones who *need* it!
Emerging Butterfly
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Baba Yaga wrote:
> > alt.support.dissociation:
>
> >> interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it says
> >> we were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was intentional
> >> set- up. just a curious way that i described that.
>
> > yes, it was.
> > can be hard to know. seems that there was some deliberate sabotage,
> > but also that you/s sometimes infer deliberation where perhaps it
> > wasn't.
>
> think it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not
> think searching for their intentions interferes
> need to deal with fact of mutual hate
> regardless of reason for it
hmm
whereas i think if i do happen to find the reason for it or the roots
of both, it could help heal the rift
astri
> On Nov 2, 10:52 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
>>> Baba Yaga wrote:
>>
>>>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
>>>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
>>>> world.
>>
>>> ohh
>>> even if it's safe sane consensual?
>>
>> can't be with the littles around
>> not ever
>
> but da lils are the ones who *need* it!
no
they don't need it
they feel compelled to repeat their v*ctimization
that isn't need
that's compulsion
and it isn't healthy
Emerging Butterfly
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 10:52 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
> >>> Baba Yaga wrote:
>
> >>>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
> >>>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
> >>>> world.
>
> >>> ohh
> >>> even if it's safe sane consensual?
>
> >> can't be with the littles around
> >> not ever
>
> > but da lils are the ones who *need* it!
>
> no
> they don't need it
> they feel compelled to repeat their v*ctimization
> that isn't need
> that's compulsion
> and it isn't healthy
is *fun*!!!
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>Baba Yaga wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>> On Nov 2, 5:26?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>>>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 2, 3:57?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>>> [...]
>
>>>> some littles very clearly freaked at times.
>>> but he says that's cuz of their memories
>>
>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
>> world.
>
>ohh
>even if it's safe sane consensual?
always, so far as I can see.
it doesn't appear that it can be safe for them.
will say this. if *I* were in that world, would not be willing to
'play' with you. don't think you can give a consent I'd be happy
with.
>> if it was Sukey Sunshine, we'd scoop her up and carry her away and
>> promise her we'd never let that happen to her again.
>> can't do that for your littles. 8-(
>
>thank you
>we've tried
>we've tried an adult said with last person when we ended up crying on
>his floor
>
>well one of the kids was *screaming* inside "michaela! i need you!" and
>michaela cried and said "i'm so sorry kiddo - i didn't know" and we had
>him take us home
whew. that's a start.
>and we stopped
>
>but we can't all seem to stop
it does seem to be a battle.
think the more you can meet needs in other ways, the more it'll help.
think that's true of almost every aspect of 'recovery'.
but it may also be a matter of winning every person or part or fragmet
who's compelled that way round one at a time, until you have a clear
majority actively refusing it. I don't know.
>is huge willfulness when we get into this
mhm.
>even now we wanna get out
>
>but part of us is furious she spent all this time working on finding
>people to play with and now we wanna sabotage it
<<nod>>
it would be useful to find what *else she likes. but she may not
know.
>she always acts like she's living on borrowed time when she's out
>
>so she's extremely frenetic and quick
<<nod>>
>>>> do you know that they were lies from her p.o.v.?
>>>> could they have been an attempt to makes sense of things?
>>> no, it was....
>>> like, she *needed* to escalate the story.
>>> she *needed* the sense of being a victim
>>> so she could get attention and sympathy
>>
>> because she wasn't getting it for the, um, unescalated things which
>> needed attention and sympathy?
>>
>> or because big real things weren't safe to get sympathy for?
>
>i think it's the second one
then fake sympathy for fake things was her only source. in that
light, it becomes the only possible strategy.
>and m*m's deep need to have stuff to rescue bro and i from
>was like we weren't doing our job if we didn't bring her home terrible
>stories
egads.
its no wonder you ended up fragmented, the number of roles you had to
juggle.
>>> can't breathe or see.
>>
>> 8-(
>>
>> have you got soft drinks? can you get one and try to really taste it,
>> and feel the fizziness? might not help, but sometimes things like
>> that do.
>
>not a bad idea
>thanks
>we wanna go to bookstore but everything is pretty fuzzy and it spins
>easily and head hurts
>so might stay home
sounds wise. got any books you can read again?
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>Baba Yaga wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>> On Nov 2, 5:35?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>>>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>>>
>
>>> often talked about me as if i was some very burdensome person he was
>>> kind enough to give his time to
>>
>> yep.
>>
>>> didn't like being diminished that way
>>
>> no.
>> it *is diminishing.
>> have been on the receiving end often enough to know that it also
>> represents complete fked-upness of the person representing things that
>> way. healthy-enough people do nt behave that way - and infact,
>> generally don't engage in relationships like that.
>
>oh
>that means maybe i have to let go of wanting to be "cared for" in some
>of the ways the kids crave.
in one-down ways?
yes, I think so.
it's really very hard, this.
because the need for quasi-parental care is deep. but any such
relationship between adults is unsafe. & somehow one has to resolve
that.
we had - oh, I suppose it was about three years of afternoons with
Josie Jump, and then a few weeks of taking Sukey Sunshine to nursery -
before monkeys really felt safe to emerge. don't know that it
connects, because it was all entangled with melting and S.M. becoming,
but always half-suspected being grown-up for outside little ones
helped them feel safe-enough to be.
certainly, there's more health for us in adult, or at least peer,
interactions than in hierarchical ones. much damage in being
one-down. (& temptation in being just a quarter up. not a healthy
temptation.) also far more genuine meeting of needs. nonetheless,
it's sometimes hard to know that that's all that's really viable.
>>> his clinging to how kind and wonderful he was
>>> and how i caused him to lose control
>>
>> well, that is b'll'cks.
>
>yeah.
>idk
>he always said it was my fault
to (mis?)quote Mandy Rice Davies, "he would say that, wouldn't he".
the thing is, one *couldn't drive a decent man to that. but if
something did, it'd shatter him. there'd be no saying it was your
fault, because no decent man could countenance the idea that anyone
*could* provoke that kind of abuse.
>i know from a distance that's common ab*ser talk
>hard from inside it
yes, it is.
important to put the two together, however.
>>>> think that's enough to be going on with.
>>> thanks for all that
>>
>> yw.
>>
>>>>> good question
>>>>> we were set up as hating each other young
>>>> 8-(
>>> interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it says we
>>> were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was intentional set-
>>> up. just a curious way that i described that.
>>
>> yes, it was.
>> can be hard to know. seems that there was some deliberate sabotage,
>> but also that you/s sometimes infer deliberation where perhaps it
>> wasn't.
>
>hmm. could you say more on that please?
o.k. I'm at risk of being over-categorical here. I don't know what a
child's experience of the kind of sadistic, seemingly systematic abuse
you experienced is. & of course, I'm not a dispassionate observer.
however, it seems that sometimes (don't know how widely) you're very
ready to credit them with almost magical power, in a way which leaves
little room for your having very creatively done what was necessary to
square the circle of surviving in an impossible situation.
it almost doesn't matter whether they intended or not - at a certain
point, what matters is the effect. sometimes, not having intended
seriously enough to avoid harm is as bad as having intended to do
harm, and that's really all one needs to know about it.
however, it *may matter that you're perceiving them as having so much
control over your internal relationships. it seems to me that the
effect is to donate your autonomy to them. and tbh, to keep you in a
world where magic is possible, which seems to be part of what's
driving you to the shadows. magical thinking really bothers me, in
this context.
I dunno. my unease about this may be all about me, and nothing about
you. I don't want to push it on you, when it may not be of importance
(now or at all).
>>>>> "she" was a compulsion we couldn't stop
>>>> why did you need to stop her?
>>> she's a *liar*
>>
>> that's not entirely an answer to the question.
>
>heh
>seemed like answer to us
>liars need to stop lying
well, I see your point. contrariwise, I think lying is under-rated as
an adaptive strategy. (I prefer contexts where it's unnecessary, but
that's another matter.)
to my mind, then, it depends on the lie, and on the context.
to take your bathroom example, first-graders (what's that, 6ish?)
commonly do lie. it's disapproved of by adults, or at least certain
classes of lie are disapproved of by adults, but it's a developmental
reality. they're trying out the strategies they see around them.
additionally, first-graders don't have all that developed an ability
to distinguish between truth and invention, or literal truth and
metaphor, or waking reality and dream. (it's begining to be somewhat
developed - I would be much surprised to hear Sukey Sunshine telling
me about there was a tiger and it was eating carrots and I stroked it
and Captain Handome hit me and there was an aeroplane, unless she was
telling it *as a dream. Miss Bouncer, who's 4, tells those things as
if they were waking reality.)
then, even quite old children 'somatise' experience or emotion.
(actually, so do many adults, but children more so.) "I feel sick" is
easier to get hold of than, "I feel nebulouly all wrong and I don't
like it". At about 10 or 11, I might know that 'feeling sick' wasn't
right, but I didn't have a correct way to express that kind of thing.
children use the vocabulary and concepts they have available to them.
& because childhood is a process of adapting to one's surroundings,
they use the vocabulary and concepts which get the most desirable
response.
[...]
>we never said were sick at home
>tried it at school
that's telling.
and rather sad.
>people just got mad anyway
>no one cared no matter how much i did that
8-(
>> if a child's needing to go back and forth to the bathroom with his
>> pretended or exaggerated ailment - if a child has the focussed
>> attention to do that - I would infer he's in need of attention he
>> isn't getting, or a dependanility his adults aren't showing.
>
>but no one was there for me, which makes me wonder why i did that --
>hoping someone would suddenly care? clearly, no one did
no.
we were doing the equivalent prolly until we found Usenet. until we
were 30.
making fusses, hoping someone would suddenly care, despite repeated
experience that they probably wouldn't.
>i don't even know what i was looking for
hard to know, when one hasn't experienced it.
one hears of 'pica', especially in pregnancy - people eating weird
things. chances are a lot of them are short of some micronutrient.
they also couldn't say what they're looking for, but instinct drives
them to look.
[...]
>she was cruel
>i remember the first day looking at all the pics of clowns in her room
>hearing her tell us all how she loves clowns
>and as a first grader on my first day of school i *knew* that her "love
>of clowns" was a lie - that she was just trying to sound child-friendly
>she hated me
I hesitate to say it, but phoneys very often do hate perceptive
children. no-one likes being seen through, & children have no notion
of respcting/ colluding in others' deceptions.
>she hated my mom
>wish she'd seen it for what it was
>but she just hated us both and the "drama" we brought
how grossly unreasonable to blame a child for that!
Baba Yaga
>On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Baba Yaga wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>> interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it says
>>> we were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was intentional
>>> set- up. just a curious way that i described that.
>>
>> yes, it was.
>> can be hard to know. seems that there was some deliberate sabotage,
>> but also that you/s sometimes infer deliberation where perhaps it
>> wasn't.
>
>think it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not
>think searching for their intentions interferes
fair point.
>need to deal with fact of mutual hate
>regardless of reason for it
true.
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
[....]
>> think it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not
>> think searching for their intentions interferes
>> need to deal with fact of mutual hate
>> regardless of reason for it
>
>hmm
>whereas i think if i do happen to find the reason for it or the roots
>of both, it could help heal the rift
between you and your abusers?
if that is what you meant, some rifts are are very necessary. would
recommend amptation as the only sound healing strategy.
Baba Opinionated
jill
Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Nov 1, 9:56=A0pm, cometz <comet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Nov 1, 11:21=A0pm, Emerging Butterfly
>>
>>
>>
>> <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > i don't know why it's yn, but it seems to be the name that stubbornly
>> > stays when i try to name her. tried to put a br in front of it so
>> > could call her bryn. no go. it's yn. guess can pronounce it like eon?
>> > just know her name is those two letters.
>>
>> > never talked about her as separate alter before. want to now.
>
>>
>> did you ever stop to think that maybe her assessments and distress are
>> appropriate? =A0have you considered that she may be representative of
>> many others of you and that she is expressing their desires and fears?
>> have you considered that she is trying to protect all of you?
>
>well, i wrote this post and realized the stuff i was saying about her
>was pretty critical. i worry cuz she seems to have so much "drama",
>but maybe that's cuz others of us minimize so it's hard to get an
>accurate assessment of things?
>about little thigns.
>open to feedback.
>
>>
I would bet external reality is somewhere in between. She might be
overly dramatic in some ways to get her point across because others
inside minimize so much. Others inside might minimize so much that
valid concerns are ignored. Between these two extremes is most likely
a much more realistic balance.
Sounds to me like those of you who are so strong on minimizing should
sit down and listen to her with an open mind, while she should sit
down and listen to those of you who are less dramatic with an open
mind. Ultimately, I'd bet both sides would learn something beneficial.
Rainbow Colors (Jill)
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing
we are becoming white light.
ji...@tuells.org
cometz
wrote:
> On Nov 1, 9:56 pm, cometz <comet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 1, 11:21 pm, Emerging Butterfly
>
> > <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > i don't know why it's yn, but it seems to be the name that stubbornly
> > > stays when i try to name her. tried to put a br in front of it so
> > > could call her bryn. no go. it's yn. guess can pronounce it like eon?
> > > just know her name is those two letters.
>
> > > never talked about her as separate alter before. want to now.
>
> > did you ever stop to think that maybe her assessments and distress are
> > many others of you and that she is expressing their desires and fears?
> > have you considered that she is trying to protect all of you?
>
> well, i wrote this post and realized the stuff i was saying about her
> was pretty critical. i worry cuz she seems to have so much "drama",
> but maybe that's cuz others of us minimize so it's hard to get an
> accurate assessment of things?
> i still feel like she's overdramatic and maybe pr*grammed to freak out
> about little thigns.
> open to feedback.
>
>
>
> > just wondering.
don't know what overdramatic means. wary of words that dismiss
intensity of others feelings. foo called us overdramatic, among other
things. now when i can see how distorted the entire situation was, i
consider it remarkable that we didn't just go catatonic in order to
disengage. being stuck in the middle of insanity warrants huge
feelings. maybe you don't like the ones she has but it doesn't mean
they are wrong or out of proportion. only means you don't feel the
same way. she is expressing deep upset. it is probably a reflection
of her feelings. she may have very minimal tolerance for things that
don't bother you but it doesn't mean she is wrong to feel as she
does.
sorry. is a touchy subject.
betsy
cometz
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> alt.support.dissociation:
>
> >maybe everything wasn't perfect.
> >nor was it constant ab*se though.
> >and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
>
> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. and on
> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>
oh, yeah. got stuck about the drama statementy that i forgot about
this statement. whoever is writing doesn't reflect what others of you
have stated very clearly and adamantly about both those ppl. and both
those ppl clearly caused deep and, in the case of steven, ongoing
distress in many of you.
and echoing baba yaga, his appearance here was sick making. and,
btw, he behaved like a major jerk.
betsy
> >i don't think yn has it right.
> >if she hadn't existed in my childhood i wouldn't ahve accused my rents
> >of all these vile horrible nasty things.
> >i don't knwo why she is.
>
> might be an important thing to discover.
> wonder if she knows why you are?
>
> Baba Yaga
cometz
wrote:
> On Nov 2, 5:35 am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
snip
>
> interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it says we
> were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was intentional set-
> up. just a curious way that i described that.
>
>
>
> > >"she" was a compulsion we couldn't stop
>
> > why did you need to stop her?
>
> she's a *liar*
> i remember in first grade lunging to and from the bathroom over and
> over
> saying i was sick
> i wasn't sick
> i was just going in and out of the bathroom and trying to get
> attention for being sick
> but....
> guess something was deeply wrong for me to need to make up such simple
> lies as being sick
> was clearly suffering anyway
> teacher hated me
>
>
think that lies made up in desperation aren't about being a liar. they
are last ditch attempts at self preservation. we did those kind of
lies as well. one year in junior high was so hideous we spent much
time in nurses office. anything to get away.
first grade, six years old. think of what that means. look around you
and find a six year old you know. if they were doing the things you
were doing don't you think you'd want to help that child? six years
old is so little. when i see kids that age they are nearly babies.
struggling to grow into themselves and the world of adult reasoning
and behavior as well as all the kids in school that they never knew
before. and then to have a teacher who not only doesn't understand but
indicates active dislike?
wish you could find some sympathy for her. for you. for what you
suffered.
betsy
cometz
<emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 2, 9:43 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > > On Nov 1, 11:07 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> > sigh
>
> > think you're minimizing as much as she's "overdramatic"
>
> um, if i minimize it's only very slightly :P
>
>
um, i don't think so.
bb
astri
> On Nov 2, 11:10 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> On Nov 2, 10:52 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
>>>>> Baba Yaga wrote:
>>
>>>>>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
>>>>>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
>>>>>> world.
>>
>>>>> ohh
>>>>> even if it's safe sane consensual?
>>
>>>> can't be with the littles around
>>>> not ever
>>
>>> but da lils are the ones who *need* it!
>>
>> no
>> they don't need it
>> they feel compelled to repeat their v*ctimization
>> that isn't need
>> that's compulsion
>> and it isn't healthy
>
> is *fun*!!!
not for most of you
astri
> On Nov 2, 10:44 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Baba Yaga wrote:
>>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>>> interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it
>>>> says we were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was
>>>> intentional set- up. just a curious way that i described that.
>>
>>> yes, it was. can be hard to know. seems that there was some
>>> deliberate sabotage, but also that you/s sometimes infer
>>> deliberation where perhaps it wasn't.
>>
>> think it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not
>> think searching for their intentions interferes
>> need to deal with fact of mutual hate
>> regardless of reason for it
>
> hmm
> whereas i think if i do happen to find the reason for it or the roots
> of both, it could help heal the rift
spending too much time searching searching searching is what makes one
more vulnerable to confabulations.
working to heal the current relationships is likely, however,
spontaneously to trigger information regarding reasons and/or roots.
and if the relationship gets all healed and you never figured out the
roots, it doesn't really matter anyway. you win either way.
Emerging Butterfly
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 10:44 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Baba Yaga wrote:
> >>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> >>> alt.support.dissociation:
>
> >>>> interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it
> >>>> says we were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was
> >>>> intentional set- up. just a curious way that i described that.
>
> >>> yes, it was. can be hard to know. seems that there was some
> >>> deliberate sabotage, but also that you/s sometimes infer
> >>> deliberation where perhaps it wasn't.
>
> >> think it doesn't matter if it was deliberate or not
> >> think searching for their intentions interferes
> >> need to deal with fact of mutual hate
> >> regardless of reason for it
>
> > hmm
> > whereas i think if i do happen to find the reason for it or the roots
> > of both, it could help heal the rift
>
> spending too much time searching searching searching is what makes one
> more vulnerable to confabulations.
right, but i'm really not deeply searching. i do think asking them
some questions though could help to clarify their roles. that's not
going digging.
often when i find out how one of me came into being and their role, it
helps us all understand and get along better.
i not searching or digging.
>
> working to heal the current relationships is likely, however,
> spontaneously to trigger information regarding reasons and/or roots.
yes.
Emerging Butterfly
very good points here. actually made me think of 6 year olds i've
worked with.
you're right -- i have much more ready empathy for them then i do for
the 6 year old me.
idk -- if i saw a kid making that up.....i might be a little....
well, annoyed?
like, there was this one girl i worked with some -- she was about 9 or
10? and the thing is, she'd been ab*sed. but the even bigger problem,
it seemed, was that she was with a t. who was telling her all this
wonderful stuff about boundaries and such and not teaching her how to
get along in the social world.
she repelled the other kids cuz she had heard unequivical statements
like, "you don't have to keep any secrets", and "no one touches you
without your permission",
and "you need to go to an adult and talk to them if someone bothers
you." and so here's this girl telling kids in line not to touch her,
like accidentally bumping into,
and pretty much, her therapist took the whole thing way too far in my
eyes and made this girl even more victimized by teaching her "skills"
that are great in one
situation but don't generalize to everything quite that way.
i get it some -- kids are literal. the t. was protective.
but i'm also kinda angry with that t.
because i saw what this was doing to the kid, to her interactions.
and she was ab*sed, but she was *annoying* in these new "skill sets"
i spent time with her and talked with her and talked with the other
kids, tried to get them to be kinder to her.
she was being sent out as prey.
she was sent out as a "victim" who always needed to speak. did not
serve her well at all.
and, i guess, i was sent out that way too.
by a mother who encouraged me to "speak up for yourself', but it was
for *her* not for me and she didn't teach me appropriate ways -- she
taught me how to alienate
myself and play the victim as a kid.
not an attractive role, even to the most caring adult.
it repels people.
emerging butterfly
> On Nov 2, 5:58 am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>> maybe we were neglected some as a child.
>>> maybe everything wasn't perfect.
>>> nor was it constant ab*se though.
>>> and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
>> *Steven* cool?
>> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. and on
>> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>>
>
> oh, yeah. got stuck about the drama statementy that i forgot about
> this statement. whoever is writing doesn't reflect what others of you
> have stated very clearly and adamantly about both those ppl. and both
> those ppl clearly caused deep and, in the case of steven, ongoing
> distress in many of you.
>
> and echoing baba yaga, his appearance here was sick making. and,
> btw, he behaved like a major jerk.
thank you this helped.
is harder to validate with todd cuz he so playing nice guy who just
doesn't want to be bothered with our drama
but that not nice or caring right?
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>very good points here. actually made me think of 6 year olds i've
>worked with.
>you're right -- i have much more ready empathy for them then i do for
>the 6 year old me.
>idk -- if i saw a kid making that up.....i might be a little....
>well, annoyed?
at the 6-year-old stage?
yea, maybe, if it caught you the wrong way at the wrong moment.
children can be very annoying. (people can be very annoying.)
a little, though. not more than concerned to give the child better
tools.
[...]
>and she was ab*sed, but she was *annoying* in these new "skill sets"
mmmmhm.
some children are annoying. it's hard on them.
5-year-old son of person who I suppose is now a friend is really
*quite* an annoying little boy. but as well as annoying, he's also *a
little boy*. & he's getting through the world the best he can. his
adults' job is partly to teach him to be less annoying.
I was a very annoying teen. (prolly before that, but it wasn't made
so plain to me before then.) but still I was a child in trouble and
needing help. if Josie Jump in a few years was manifesting that sort
of annoying behaviour, I'd be worrying over her.
[...]
>by a mother who encouraged me to "speak up for yourself', but it was
>for *her* not for me and she didn't teach me appropriate ways -- she
>taught me how to alienate
>myself and play the victim as a kid.
>
>not an attractive role, even to the most caring adult.
>
>it repels people.
it does. except for predators, whom it attracts. & sometimes peers.
is a sad truth. & one it took me far too many years to begin to
perceive.
Baba Yaga
alt.support.dissociation:
>is harder to validate with todd cuz he so playing nice guy who just
>doesn't want to be bothered with our drama
>but that not nice or caring right?
*exactly* right.
cometz
wrote:
big snip
>
> situation but don't generalize to everything quite that way.
>
> i get it some -- kids are literal. the t. was protective.
>
> but i'm also kinda angry with that t.
>
> because i saw what this was doing to the kid, to her interactions.
>
> and she was ab*sed, but she was *annoying* in these new "skill sets"
>
> i spent time with her and talked with her and talked with the other
> kids, tried to get them to be kinder to her.
>
> she was being sent out as prey.
>
> she was sent out as a "victim" who always needed to speak. did not
> serve her well at all.
>
> and, i guess, i was sent out that way too.
>
> by a mother who encouraged me to "speak up for yourself', but it was
> for *her* not for me and she didn't teach me appropriate ways -- she
> taught me how to alienate
>
> myself and play the victim as a kid.
>
> not an attractive role, even to the most caring adult.
>
> it repels people.
understand completely what you are telling about this t.
platitudinous teaching is nearly useless. i agree he was adding to her
likelihood of being victimized again.
the terrible conundrum about what your mother did was that while she
was teaching you to be victim she also victimized you so it is true
that you were a victim. she covered her emotional brutality by
training you to look beyond her. maybe if you can face the true ev*l
that was done to you, you won't feel like you are making up your true
anguish.
betsy
cometz
wrote:
> cometz wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 5:58 am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
> >> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> >> alt.support.dissociation:
>
> >>> maybe we were neglected some as a child.
> >>> maybe everything wasn't perfect.
> >>> nor was it constant ab*se though.
> >>> and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
> >> *Steven* cool?
> >> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. and on
> >> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>
> > oh, yeah. got stuck about the drama statementy that i forgot about
> > this statement. whoever is writing doesn't reflect what others of you
> > have stated very clearly and adamantly about both those ppl. and both
> > those ppl clearly caused deep and, in the case of steven, ongoing
> > distress in many of you.
>
> > and echoing baba yaga, his appearance here was sick making. and,
> > btw, he behaved like a major jerk.
>
> thank you this helped.
> is harder to validate with todd cuz he so playing nice guy who just
> doesn't want to be bothered with our drama
> but that not nice or caring right?
>
>
have to be honest and say that for me the a/o stuff has nothing to do
with caring so someone who trolls for women to bully is by definition
not caring or nice.
to answer your question, yes, todd was ~playing~ a nice guy. many
many ppl do that. mostly, i think, not because they are entirely
conscious of doing it but because they need to see themselves as
such. is why jumping into intimate situations with strangers is so
frightening and dangerous. you know nothing about their true selves.
you don't know their history. you don't know anything and you become
so triggered and split that you are terribly vulnerable to being
seriously hurt.
i guess my feeling/belief is that you can't know anyone without
knowing them for a very long time to see how they behave in real life
in all kinds of circumstances. and i also believe that putting your
body and mind in the hands of virtual strangers (no pun intended) is
extremely dangerous. and finally i believe that since so much of the a/
o for you is triggered and terrified and angry and needy that you are
in no state of clarity to listen to any warning bells that might be
sounding.
i make consistently terrible decisons when any of us are triggered or
struggling with emotional turmoil, even if it isn't overwhelming. i
don't think it is possible for you to know whether these ppl are "nice
guys." and unfortunately you have some inside who are going to push
so hard that you aren't able to hold onto your more solid thinking
self.
betsy
cometz
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
> alt.support.dissociation:
snip
> >not an attractive role, even to the most caring adult.
>
> >it repels people.
>
> it does. except for predators, whom it attracts. & sometimes peers.
> is a sad truth. & one it took me far too many years to begin to
> perceive.
oof. this hit home. needed that clarity. thank you.
betsy
astri
> On Nov 2, 8:44 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> spending too much time searching searching searching is what makes
>> one more vulnerable to confabulations.
>
> right, but i'm really not deeply searching. i do think asking them
> some questions though could help to clarify their roles. that's not
> going digging.
> often when i find out how one of me came into being and their role, it
> helps us all understand and get along better.
> i not searching or digging.
ok
Baba Yaga
>
>i make consistently terrible decisons when any of us are triggered or
>struggling with emotional turmoil, even if it isn't overwhelming. i
yes. exactly that, consistently terrible. 8-p
is pertinent.
>don't think it is possible for you to know whether these ppl are "nice
>guys." and unfortunately you have some inside who are going to push
>so hard that you aren't able to hold onto your more solid thinking
>self.
Baba Yaga
Baba Yaga
>On Nov 3, 5:48?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>
>snip
>
>> >not an attractive role, even to the most caring adult.
>>
>> >it repels people.
>>
>> it does. ?except for predators, whom it attracts. ?& sometimes peers.
>> is a sad truth. ?& one it took me far too many years to begin to
>> perceive.
>
>oof. this hit home. needed that clarity. thank you.
yw. 8-|
Sonata
> On Nov 1, 11:07 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 1 Nov 2009, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> i don't know why it's yn, but it seems to be the name that stubbornly
>>> stays when i try to name her. tried to put a br in front of it so
>>> could call her bryn. no go. it's yn. guess can pronounce it like eon?
>>> just know her name is those two letters.
>>> never talked about her as separate alter before. want to now.
>>> hysterical inside. she's responsible for a lot of the ab*se coming to
>>> the fore of mind.
>>> she also seems responsible for making things bigger than they are.
>>> she made up the playground bully stories when i was a kid, and she
>>> took a certain sick pleasure in being a victim -- think that was
>>> planted by m*m?
>>> we think she's the one who made todd out to be such an ab*ser, and
>>> steven.
>>> she seems to freak out at the smallest things, and believe our life as
>>> actually in danger.
>>> she is so dramatic. we really dislike her.
>>> todd was really nice and pretty sensitive and stuff. yn takes one
>>> moment of forgetting what's happening, or one comment that sounds
>>> slightly insensitive, and tilts it to make it all *vil and dangerous.
>>> trying to think what else she does.....
>>> think she's the one who decided C and sarah were somehow capable of
>>> m*rder, just because sarah was watching something where a daughter
>>> burned down father's house with delight in her eyes.
>>> yn likes being the victim and making everything in our life some kinda
>>> lifetime movie moment.
>>> we don't like her.
>>> and we dislike that when we do bdsm, she has the need to talk about
>>> danger and screaming when there are ways to be safe.
>>> yn likes to talk and make big stories.
>>> yn likes to dramatize.
>>> yn likes to freak out other insiders.
>>> yn saw a bl**d stain on our mattress at 16 when we were having
>>> memories and screamed inside, as if the stain meant we had been r*ped.
>>> we hadn't been. it was just from our cycle.
>> bet there's a middle ground.
>>
>> seems you've just set yourselves up to claim that nothing ever happened
>> and that your life was really rosey and wonderful.
>
> maybe we were neglected some as a child.
> maybe everything wasn't perfect.
> nor was it constant ab*se though.
makes it easier to minimize away when it was okay sometimes, doesn't it?
> and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
Todd was NOT. And please tell me you're not going to minimize Danny into
being "fine" too. If there are some alters who exaggerate, I bet it's
only in response to alters who try to minimize everything out of existence.
> i don't think yn has it right.
> if she hadn't existed in my childhood i wouldn't ahve accused my rents
> of all these vile horrible nasty things.
what if they were real things?
> i don't knwo why she is.
>
>
Bet there's truth in her. Bet it's something that needs to be said, or
it wouldn't be there.
Sonata
> On Nov 2, 3:58 am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>> maybe everything wasn't perfect.
>>> nor was it constant ab*se though.
>> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. and on
>> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>
> why a creep?
>
>>> i don't think yn has it right.
>>> if she hadn't existed in my childhood i wouldn't ahve accused my rents
>>> of all these vile horrible nasty things.
>> wonder if she knows why you are?
>
> we were set up as hating each other young
> "she" was a compulsion we couldn't stop
>
>
sounds like if you said that aside and communicated and compared notes,
and then asked outside people what they saw (probably somewhere in the
middle), you could work together instead of against each other, and that
would be a powerful thing, and would break down some of the pr*gr*mming
maybe.
Sonata
> On Nov 2, 5:26 am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>
>>
>>> who else?
>> would be hard to say, 'cause not all of you use ames, and there seems
>> to be quite a bit of age-sliding.
>
> true
>
>> just have clear impression of more than one of you, with different
>> outlooks and sensibilities.
>
> okay
>
>> some littles very clearly freaked at times.
>
> but he says that's cuz of their memories
that means their memories are real though, doesn't it.
>
>>>> that suggests that they're not so little as you would like to believe.
>>>> & certainly some of the things which you guys seem to accept as o.k.
>>>> strike me as rather scary.
>>> oh
>> truly so.
>
> yeah.
>
>>>> someone once said to me something to the effect that the way to
>>>> understand someone is to look for the truth in what they're saying.
>>> oh
>>>> (looking as an active process. ?it's not always easy.) ?it might be
>>>> useful if you guys could do that with one another.
>>> she used to make up outright lies about being bullied someone would
>>> look at her wrong and she'd make a whole story out of it
>> do you know that they were lies from her p.o.v.?
>> could they have been an attempt to makes sense of things?
>
> no, it was....
> like, she *needed* to escalate the story.
> she *needed* the sense of being a victim
> so she could get attention and sympathy
sounds more to us like she was *forced* to make up those specific
stories so the mthr could play a part. Doesn't sound like it was her
choice or her fault.
>
>>> but think that was at m*m's insistence
>>> she *needed* us to bring home big issues
>>> and never imply that the issues were in the home
>> blech.
>>
>>> so if we looked upset we had to make up something for her
>> ah. self-defence. o.k., that could make sense.
>
> yeah.
> at some point we even lost the desire and knew we were lying but not
> why. see the reasons clearly now with m*m.
you were taught. huge amount of what you do automatically is old patterns.
>
>
>>> (the m*ther)
>> would too.
>
> thanks.
>
>>> so much black and hate right now
>>> is hard
>> extremely.
Sonata
> On Nov 2, 5:35 am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>>>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>>>> maybe everything wasn't perfect.
>>>>> nor was it constant ab*se though.
>>>>> and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
>>>> *Steven* cool?
>>>> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>> >from his post here?
>>> why a creep?
>> blatant attempt at manipulating the group.
>> invalidating you-collectively. speaking of you as if you were a
>> child.
>> presenting himself as a white knight. & that's creepy when it's real,
>> never mind as a pose.
>> minimising his treatment of you.
>
> oh
> often talked about me as if i was some very burdensome person he was
> kind enough to give his time to
is a very red flags and warning bells thting to do. very very much ab*se
patterns.
> his clinging to how kind and wonderful he was
> and how i caused him to lose control
ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh ugh NO. that is ab*se language and not true and
not passible and lies and ab*se and old patterns. yuck yuck yuck.
>
>> think that's enough to be going on with.
>
> thanks for all that
>
>
>>> good question
>>> we were set up as hating each other young
>> 8-(
>
> interesting i just read the above statement by one of me -- it says we
> were set up as hating each other. hmm. wonder if was intentional set-
> up. just a curious way that i described that.
>
>>> "she" was a compulsion we couldn't stop
>> why did you need to stop her?
>
> she's a *liar*
> i remember in first grade lunging to and from the bathroom over and
> over
> saying i was sick
> i wasn't sick
> i was just going in and out of the bathroom and trying to get
> attention for being sick
> but....
> guess something was deeply wrong for me to need to make up such simple
> lies as being sick
bet there were things wrong that you knew you couldn't get help for so
there needed to be something you *could* get attention/help for. think
any lies were attempts at asking for help.
> was clearly suffering anyway
> teacher hated me
>
Sonata
> Baba Yaga wrote:
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>> On Nov 2, 5:26?am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>>>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> but he says that's cuz of their memories
>>
>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
>> world.
>
> ohh
> even if it's safe sane consensual?
Yes. Because it can't be that for everyone. There are people who *will*
be thrust into old bad stuff by it, no matter what. It cannot not cause
h*rt. It is not healthy for you guys. Especially because you always
gravitate to people who will fill the old ab*sive patterns.
>
>> if it was Sukey Sunshine, we'd scoop her up and carry her away and
>> promise her we'd never let that happen to her again.
>> can't do that for your littles. 8-(
>
> thank you
> we've tried
> we've tried an adult said with last person when we ended up crying on
> his floor
>
> well one of the kids was *screaming* inside "michaela! i need you!" and
> michaela cried and said "i'm so sorry kiddo - i didn't know" and we had
> him take us home
>
> and we stopped
>
> but we can't all seem to stop
>
> is huge willfulness when we get into this
>
> even now we wanna get out
>
> but part of us is furious she spent all this time working on finding
> people to play with and now we wanna sabotage it
Is not sabotage. the play is sabotage. the play sabotages your stability
and health and okayness. Is okay to break away from that.
>
> she always acts like she's living on borrowed time when she's out
>
> so she's extremely frenetic and quick
which she?
>
>
>>>> do you know that they were lies from her p.o.v.?
>>>> could they have been an attempt to makes sense of things?
>>> no, it was....
>>> like, she *needed* to escalate the story.
>>> she *needed* the sense of being a victim
>>> so she could get attention and sympathy
>>
>> because she wasn't getting it for the, um, unescalated things which
>> needed attention and sympathy?
>>
>> or because big real things weren't safe to get sympathy for?
>
> i think it's the second one
> and m*m's deep need to have stuff to rescue bro and i from
> was like we weren't doing our job if we didn't bring her home terrible
> stories
>
>
>>> can't breathe or see.
>>
>> 8-(
>>
>> have you got soft drinks? can you get one and try to really taste it,
>> and feel the fizziness? might not help, but sometimes things like
>> that do.
>
> not a bad idea
> thanks
> we wanna go to bookstore but everything is pretty fuzzy and it spins
> easily and head hurts
> so might stay home
>
>>
>> Baba Yaga
>>
>> Baba Yaga
Sonata
> On Nov 2, 9:43 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> On Nov 1, 11:07 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>
>> think you're minimizing as much as she's "overdramatic"
>
> um, if i minimize it's only very slightly :P
>
>
Uhhhh. If you're the one saying Todd and Steven were/are nice, that is a
LOT more than slightly.
Sonata
> On Nov 2, 10:52 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
>>> Baba Yaga wrote:
>>>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
>>>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
>>>> world.
>>> ohh
>>> even if it's safe sane consensual?
>> not ever
>
> but da lils are the ones who *need* it!
>
>
No they do NOT. They waant it because they think it's all there is, but
they do NOT need it. What they need is to learn that they don't need it.
Sonata
> On Nov 2, 11:10 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> On Nov 2, 10:52 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
>>>>> Baba Yaga wrote:
>>>>>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
>>>>>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
>>>>>> world.
>>>>> ohh
>>>>> even if it's safe sane consensual?
>>>> can't be with the littles around
>>>> not ever
>>> but da lils are the ones who *need* it!
>> they don't need it
>> they feel compelled to repeat their v*ctimization
>> that isn't need
>> that's compulsion
>> and it isn't healthy
>
> is *fun*!!!
>
>
For a couple of you, sometimes. Isn't at all for a lot of you. Seems
like most of the time you end up with people where it ISN'T fun.
Remember how much very justified dislike there was of what happened with
danny? he waltzed over VERY serious boundaries. and you seem to seek
that out in partners, consciously or unconsciously. actually, might just
be a fact of anyone who would want to play with someone so h*rt. any
people who would want to avoid h*rting you? they wouldn't want to play
with you right now because they'd relaise it couldn't not. so you're
only going to end up with people who don't care about h*rting you. make
sense?
Sonata
> On Nov 2, 5:58 am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>
>>> maybe we were neglected some as a child.
>>> maybe everything wasn't perfect.
>>> nor was it constant ab*se though.
>>> and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
>> *Steven* cool?
>> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. and on
>> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>>
>
> oh, yeah. got stuck about the drama statementy that i forgot about
> this statement. whoever is writing doesn't reflect what others of you
> have stated very clearly and adamantly about both those ppl. and both
> those ppl clearly caused deep and, in the case of steven, ongoing
> distress in many of you.
>
> and echoing baba yaga, his appearance here was sick making. and,
> btw, he behaved like a major jerk.
>
> betsy
we'll note that even people who are trying to be complimentary of the
various guys just add to the bad impressions we already had.
Sonata
> cometz wrote:
>> On Nov 2, 5:58 am, Baba Yaga <spamd...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:
>>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote, in
>>> alt.support.dissociation:
>>>
>>>> maybe we were neglected some as a child.
>>>> maybe everything wasn't perfect.
>>>> nor was it constant ab*se though.
>>>> and steven and todd were both pretty cool -- just limited
>>> *Steven* cool?
>>> not sure who Todd is, but we've *seen Steven in action here. and on
>>> that evidence alone, he is a thorough-going creep.
>>>
>>
>> oh, yeah. got stuck about the drama statementy that i forgot about
>> this statement. whoever is writing doesn't reflect what others of you
>> have stated very clearly and adamantly about both those ppl. and both
>> those ppl clearly caused deep and, in the case of steven, ongoing
>> distress in many of you.
>>
>> and echoing baba yaga, his appearance here was sick making. and,
>> btw, he behaved like a major jerk.
>
>
> thank you this helped.
> is harder to validate with todd cuz he so playing nice guy who just
> doesn't want to be bothered with our drama
> but that not nice or caring right?
not at all. not one bit. is self-centred jerk.
russiandolly
> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
> > Baba Yaga wrote:
>
> >> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
> >> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
> >> world.
>
> > ohh
> > even if it's safe sane consensual?
>
> can't be with the littles around
> not ever
>
>
> ======================
> to email send to astri
> ======================
> at volcano dot org
> ======================
that's where we come a cropper
how do you keep them away?
astri
> On Nov 2, 5:52 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
>>> Baba Yaga wrote:
>>
>>>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
>>>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
>>>> world.
>>
>>> ohh
>>> even if it's safe sane consensual?
>>
>> can't be with the littles around
>> not ever
>
> how do you keep them away?
gotta be enough communication and cooperation that folks get some
semblance and sense of control over who is going to do what kinds of
ordinary activities. and if you're in a committed relationship, then
s*x can reasonably be part of ordinary activities, if that's something
you want and agree to. and partner needs to be sensitive enough to know
who is there, too.
russiandolly
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, russiandolly wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 5:52 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
> >>> Baba Yaga wrote:
>
> >>>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
> >>>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
> >>>> world.
>
> >>> ohh
> >>> even if it's safe sane consensual?
>
> >> can't be with the littles around
> >> not ever
>
> > that's where we come a cropper
> > how do you keep them away?
>
> gotta be enough communication and cooperation that folks get some
> semblance and sense of control over who is going to do what kinds of
> ordinary activities.
nod
> and if you're in a committed relationship, then
> s*x can reasonably be part of ordinary activities,
nod
> if that's something
> you want and agree to. and partner needs to be sensitive enough to know
> who is there, too.
>
nod. yeah. understand that. think we don't have a good enough
understanding of the system to *really* be able to safely (emotion-
wise) get into that territory.
have some insiders who think that in order to be l*ved that's what you
do but they're too young
and some older ones who, still too young, resent being the ones who do
it
weren't very good at being honest with ex. they used to hide to 'get
away with it' because he said himself that if the littles were out
then he didn't want to know, but then any kind of attention draws them
out so we can't win, and they like it up until a certain point and
it's too late and horrible.
(need to give them good, age-appropriate, safe attention, and leave
the grown-up stuff to the grown-ups)
Sonata
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, russiandolly wrote:
>> On Nov 2, 5:52 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2 Nov 2009, emerging butterfly wrote:
>>>> Baba Yaga wrote:
>>>
>>>>> certainly not only because of that. whenever you're in that world,
>>>>> some of them are very clearly freaked by the present stuff in that
>>>>> world.
>>>
>>>> ohh
>>>> even if it's safe sane consensual?
>>>
>>> can't be with the littles around
>>> not ever
>>
>> that's where we come a cropper
>> how do you keep them away?
>
> gotta be enough communication and cooperation that folks get some
> semblance and sense of control over who is going to do what kinds of
> ordinary activities. and if you're in a committed relationship, then
> s*x can reasonably be part of ordinary activities, if that's something
> you want and agree to. and partner needs to be sensitive enough to know
> who is there, too.
>
>
have to be careful of littles for it. For us, anything going on that
wasn't something Summer should see, she got sent back to her swing
behind bright walls to protect her from it. But requires soemone that
will pay attention to see if something is wrong and stop if need be.
russiandolly
not sure Pippa would go as easily as that. she'd want to join in the
fun (sigh)
it's hard, even if we get an inkling that she's around, we don't like
calling a stop to things because then it's "all about us" and we
wanted to keep him happy.
plus, is embarassing. 'cos the times we've asked for stop he's had
Pippa to deal with for the next hour or so, and it make him
uncomfortable.
easier if we kept quiet and got on with it.
Emerging Butterfly
have felt very much the same way
i put a stop to something before and the other person just freaked
that one of us was little and scared
we shoulda just been quiet i think
that way we could still have fun with him
showing the freakouts can stop the fun on both sides and i don't like
that
(not endorsing what you're saying or what i'm saying -- just saying i
can relate to the feeling)
astri
recipe for repeating tra*ma
> weren't very good at being honest with ex. they used to hide to 'get
> away with it' because he said himself that if the littles were out
> then he didn't want to know, but then any kind of attention draws them
> out so we can't win, and they like it up until a certain point and
> it's too late and horrible.
not ok
> (need to give them good, age-appropriate, safe attention, and leave
> the grown-up stuff to the grown-ups)
yes
astri
> have to be careful of littles for it. For us, anything going on that
> wasn't something Summer should see, she got sent back to her swing
> behind bright walls to protect her from it. But requires soemone that
> will pay attention to see if something is wrong and stop if need be.
is summer back?
astri
c stops everything (except cuddles) when he senses we've switched (he's
pretty sensitive) and just waits for some kind of information about who
is there and what's ok. keiki avoids that stuff anyway but is very
active in seeking cuddles.
Shiyiya
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Sonata wrote:
>
>> have to be careful of littles for it. For us, anything going on that
>> wasn't something Summer should see, she got sent back to her swing
>> behind bright walls to protect her from it. But requires soemone that
>> will pay attention to see if something is wrong and stop if need be.
>
> is summer back?
>
>
no :/ everyone but me keeps getting vaguer. don't know why is happening
and don't like it. don't WANT to be alone in here. and need echo and
rys! their jobs are important!
astri
oh
you getting their abilities?
Shiyiya
> On Tue, 10 Nov 2009, Shiyiya wrote:
>> astri wrote:
>>> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009, Sonata wrote:
>>>
>>>> have to be careful of littles for it. For us, anything going on that
>>>> wasn't something Summer should see, she got sent back to her swing
>>>> behind bright walls to protect her from it. But requires soemone that
>>>> will pay attention to see if something is wrong and stop if need be.
>>>
>>> is summer back?
>>
>> no :/ everyone but me keeps getting vaguer. don't know why is
>> happening and don't like it. don't WANT to be alone in here. and need
>> echo and rys! their jobs are important!
>
> oh
>
> you getting their abilities?
>
don't think so. though jezz did say I was more assertive than normally
am online. and maybe the 'mad is bad' isn't as strong? but I don't WANT
to be them mixed with me, I want to be me and them be them!
astri
what happens happens
russiandolly
nods.
think sometimes bf... ex bf... got a bit lost in own needs
pip loves cuddles
we all do
they are safe and nice
Sonata
think you deserve someone who will pay attention to *your* needs. all of
your. that includes just a friend who woould.
russiandolly
hmmm,,, yeah,,, sigh.
need to work *with* the whole 'being many' thing, as opposed to
pretending that it doesn't exist.
he's coming over for dinner tonight we think, so we'll tell you guys
how it goes - hopefully we'll be good
Sonata
yeah, very much so.
> he's coming over for dinner tonight we think, so we'll tell you guys
> how it goes - hopefully we'll be good
good luck
astri
> On Nov 10, 4:52 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> c stops everything (except cuddles) when he senses we've switched
>> (he's pretty sensitive) and just waits for some kind of information
>> about who is there and what's ok. keiki avoids that stuff anyway but
>> is very active in seeking cuddles.
>
> think sometimes bf... ex bf... got a bit lost in own needs
can be a problem there
> pip loves cuddles
> we all do
> they are safe and nice
yup