what does it take to break the silence?
mischa bach
okay, okay, after the usses being basically silent readers & lurkers for
weeks or maybe months, this subject might sound odd. Or misleading. 'cuz
while we are in general indeed trying to reach out more, to be more open
again and paricipate more regluarly here once more, this isn't why we write
this post.
but how to say what we wanna say without creating another of our (in)famous
novel-length weird postings? *thinking*
a while ago, we became part of a nation-wide network over here in Germany
called JES (meaning junkies - ex-junkies - folks on substitutional meds -
and, yeah, this acronym is kinda direct reply to Nancy Reagan's "Just say
No!" *grin*). and in the area/state where we leave, JES now gets a new legal
structure and, more important, JES now gets state-funding for
selfhelp-activities (amazing but true). well, talking to other folks who are
with JES, we started to wonder how it comes many, many female junkies (stats
say 70-90% or even more) have a background of childhood abuse but a) never
talk about it and b) this never became an issue, neither in official rehab
nor when it comes to self-help. so now we are looking for ways to change
that. to make breaking the silence and coming together both as part of that
network as well as abuse survivors easier.
so we thought, if folks shy away from anything which obviously smells like it
might be about the issue of s*xual abuse and/or even include "outing"
oneself, we need something like a bait. something in the line of that
wendo-weekend we just came back home from on monday (dunno if you know wendo
- it is about selfdefense and selfempowerment of women and women only). a big
part of that two days workshop ended up talking - people opening up - people
sharing what happened to them - people sharing how being a survivor still
deeply influences their lives till today. so now we plan to organize a
wendo-workshop for women who are with JES.
but we think there must be more, there must be other settings, situations,
workshops, subjects which help people to break the silence. and that's why we
now write this post - to ask for your ideas, for your help. speaking from
your expereince - what surroundings helped you to open up? e.g. we were
surprised how showing our first tv-movie (which deals with the issues of
s*xual abuse & r*pe) in Ireland back in 1993 led to complete strangers often
for the very first time ever sharing what had happened to them. and we are
looking for other "opportunities" like this. so ... do you have any ideas
here?
we'd greatly appreciate your help.
we think it is important to find more ways to break the silence and to help
others break the silence.
mischa's chaos
trill
I'm just reading with my (ahem) morning coffee (it's 1:41 in the p.m.),
and I don't have time to write a response because I'm expected somewhere,
but I can't pass this up without giving you a cheer. Yay and hurray for the
wonderful ideas and works of Mischa's chaos.
Later I'll write something more to you.
thanks for being Mischa's chaos.
trill
mischa bach <misch...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:zvfpunonputzkqr...@news.t-online.de...
mischa bach
*blushing*
On 13 Jun 2001 12:46:04 -0500, trill wrote:
>Mischa's chaos,
> I'm just reading with my (ahem) morning coffee (it's 1:41 in the p.m.),
hey, that's a really good time to have your morning coffee! :-)
>and I don't have time to write a response because I'm expected >somewhere,
hope you had a nice/good/wonderful time wherever you were this afternoon.
*smiles*
>but I can't pass this up without giving you a cheer.
the usses? *blushing som more*
>Yay and hurray for the wonderful ideas and works of Mischa's chaos.
*more blushing*
hey that must look weird. redfaced redhaired stuttering on our hm, okay not
red but greyischwhitishdirty keyboard! ;-)
> Later I'll write something more to you.
great! so we got something to look forward to! *bigbroadhappysmiles*
>thanks for being Mischa's chaos.
oh.
you're welcome.
and thanks for being trill.
you know, sometimes we dream of meeting you. *shy smiles*
mischa's chaos
Mourning Dove
It's nice to see you posting again.....see below.
"mischa bach" <misch...@gmx.de>
> hi
>
> okay, okay, after the usses being basically silent readers & lurkers
> for
> weeks or maybe months, this subject might sound odd. Or misleading.
> 'cuz
> while we are in general indeed trying to reach out more, to be more
> open
> again and paricipate more regluarly here once more, this isn't why
> we
> write
> this post.
>
> but how to say what we wanna say without creating another of our
> (in)famous
> novel-length weird postings? *thinking*
>
> a while ago, we became part of a nation-wide network over here in
> Germany
> called JES (meaning junkies - ex-junkies - folks on substitutional
> meds
An event took place in this city several years ago that really had a lot
of people talking. Of course I can't remember who sponsored the event,
but it received a lot of media attention. It was an art display, with
artwork by survivors of s*xual abuse. It took place at a local mall, and
lasted several days. The canvas for each work was a cloth handkerchief,
to represent all of the tears (shed, or unshed) of those who have
experienced such 'buse. Visitors who wished to participate were given
handkerchiefs on which to do their own artwork, which would become part
of the exhibit. There were also counselors there, as well as many
resources, information packets, etc. It really raised awareness, and
touched a lot of people. I read about it in the paper and saw it on the
news.
Now, I just have to add my personal story. I read about this exhibit a
few days before it opened, and saw a couple sample handkerchiefs in the
newspaper. My heart leapt within me. I had been expressing myself
through art for awhile, and was very excited about using this as a way to
be heard, and to meet others like myself. But, at the time, I was quite
depressed, and did not feel strong enough to go alone. I told my SO- he
wasn't interested. I told my best friend, who seemed somewhat
interested. I suggested a time for us to go, and she said she was busy.
A couple days later, she told me that she had happened to be in the mall
the day before and that she had seen the exhibit. I was devastated. I
couldn't believe she had gone without me. She said she thought it was a
good thing I did not go, because the artwork would have been too
triggering for me. (She hadn't seen any of my own.) I grew even more
depressed after that....what a missed opportunity. I had wanted to go to
that more than anything. If only I had had the courage to go alone.
So, there you have it. Some information in response to your post, and a
little rant to go along with it. I just couldn't seem to tell the former
without the latter.
mdove
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trill
end up thinking I'm dissociative as all get out 8))
mischa bach <misch...@gmx.de> wrote in message
news:zvfpunonputzkqr...@news.t-online.de...
> hi trill
>
> *blushing*
awe, c'mon!
check me out at the bottom.
Listen, I'd like to meet you, too, mc.
Right now, I just wanna say, in response to your projects, that I
started smoking pot when I was 11. By 15 I was strung out on speed. I
dropped my first acid on my 16th bday. By 17 I was firing smack, a habit
that lasted for ten years.
Every member of my family has used my aberrant behaviors to explain the
dysfunction of the family. But I see it differently. I think that my
parents raised me to be that scapegoat. I think they vented their
frustrations, a variety of types of frustrations, in a variety of types of
*bses of me. When I developed and adopted certain behaviors to try and
self-medicate (as they say) and forget or dissociate from the pain they used
those behaviors to justify the bizarre ways in which they treated me, even
before the behaviors. (The logic and psychology of committing *bse, I
think.)
Now I use x*nx. Mh pros prescribe it.
I'd still rather use opiates. They calm me better than vitamin x and
they don't leave my brain feeling bleached. Also, the side effects are
fewer and lesser and much more reversable. But, xnx it is because that's
all they'll prescribe. I'm going to try and get off of it. I dislike it.
I guess I should aim for being entirely drug free. But I dunno. The
world is filled with terrible pain. Is it really sane for me not to try and
buffer it?
Anyway, were I to attend the meetings that you describe I would probably
say some of this stuff.
Thank you, again.
trill
Cliff
Your right!!
Me bad!!!
**Bad J./c..bad bad girl!!!!
You know that your reality can't be right!!!
Your whole life people have been telling you that every facit of your
existance is wrong.. you bad...
You are flawed in every aspect of humanity.. you are not human.. you bad
bad girl!!
WWWAHHHH OK I be good!
Can someone tell me what is broken... and maybe some suggestions on how to
fix it so that I might please you!!
I don't wanna be bad... I'll cut out my s*ul just to please you..... oh wait
we already did that... Hmmmm what else do have of value that I can sacrifice
so I can be more like the human race!!
J/c
"mosaics" <mos...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106141732...@asarian-host.net...
> Hello e,
>
> > e wrote:
> >
> > > Mourning Dove wrote:
> > >
> > >> An event took place in this city several years ago that really had a
> > >> lot of people talking. Of course I can't remember who sponsored the
> > >> event, but it received a lot of media attention. It was an art
> > >> display, with artwork by survivors of s*xual abuse. It took place at
a
> > >> local mall, and lasted several days. The canvas for each work was a
> > >> cloth handkerchief, to represent all of the tears (shed, or unshed)
of
> > >> those who have experienced such 'buse.
> > >
> > > sorry to make the following irrelevant (to the main point) and
negative
> > > comment, Mourning Dove, but this is just the kind of thing that
> > > perpetuates negative and harmful stereotypes of ppl who don't have
> > > emotions. we don't have tears, shed or unshed. but doing something
like
> > > this makes it sound like we must. so ppl, including Ts, push for that
> > > and assume that we're hiding our tears. and that doing so will help
us.
>
> Excuse me for asking the obvious here, but if you've never
> permitted, allowed, had tears surrounding one's abuse how
> do you know that it wouldn't help you to have them, e?
> (Slight detour from my otherwise respectful position to not
> comment on your personal life - apologies if my Q is too...
> well, too whatever you feel like labeling it).
>
> > it also perpetuates the idea that crying is the proper response to such
> > trauma. that is, if one doesn't cry and has some other response, there's
> > something wrong with hir.
>
> Maybe not something wrong but possibly delayed, stilted, or
> repressed. I think grieving such losses unfolds differently for different
> ppl. For those who've never had tears, the tears may come later.
>
> > IMO it doesn't respect each person's choice about the best or most
> > appropriate way to respond. I think the idea that crying (or any
> > particular response) is better, e.g., more authentic or more healthy,
> > than other responses is very pernicious. and not just to ppl who don't
> > cry bc it perpetuates the idea that there *are* proper responses to
> > particular situations.
>
> Crying is a part of the human experience, e. It's like smiling. If I never
> saw a person smile, I would think something was terribly absent from their
> human experience. So, I guess you can count me in on those ppl who sees
> crying as a healthy release which ppl will get to in their own time. Imho,
> abuse happens to the mind, heart and s*ul. My tears are the language of my
> heart and s*ul. When they are absent, it's bc my mind works overtime.
>
> Sierra of TN
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> For more information about this posting service, contact:
> he...@asarian-host.net -- for all info about our server.
> If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page:
>
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Mourning Dove
>
>
> Mourning Dove wrote:
> >Hi, mischa's chaos,
>
> hi, mischa's chaos,
>
> it's good to see you posting again. :-) i like reading your
> posts. i'm impressed with your TV show and how much it helped.
> congratulations and thanks. :-)
> >
> snip
> >
> >An event took place in this city several years ago that really had
> a
> lot
> >of people talking. Of course I can't remember who sponsored the
> event,
> >but it received a lot of media attention. It was an art display,
> with
> >artwork by survivors of s*xual abuse. It took place at a local
> mall,
> and
> >lasted several days. The canvas for each work was a cloth
> handkerchief,
>
> >to represent all of the tears (shed, or unshed) of those who have
> >experienced such 'buse.
>
> sorry to make the following irrelevant (to the main point) and
> negative comment, Mourning Dove, but this is just the kind of
> thing that perpetuates negative and harmful stereotypes of ppl
> who don't have emotions. we don't have tears, shed or unshed. but
> doing something like this makes it sound like we must. so ppl,
> including Ts, push for that and assume that we're hiding our
> tears. and that doing so will help us. it's too bad that an
> otherwise very positive thing perpetuates myths that are harmful
> to some survivors.
It would be ideal if such an event could provide for the needs of all
survivors. Do you think such an event could occur? It certainly would
be quite an undertaking. There are many people who were helped by this
event, and who were heard for the first time in their lives. How do you
think those in charge could have created a more balanced event? (I am
not trying to be rude here, I really would like to know what they could
have done to be more sensitive to the experiences of all.) Would
eliminating the handkerchief/tears idea have been enough? Perhaps an
exhibit of survivor art of any type?
>
> in order for someone like J/c or me to participate, we have to
> reinforce beliefs that harm us (i.e., that we have unshed tears
> and that if we haven't shed them it's bc we're afraid or
> unwilling or covering them up or pushing them down or something).
> so either our voices are unheard or our own voices get used
> against us. it's frustrating.
I'm sure it is. Personally, I do have unshed tears, and do push them
back if they threaten to emerge. It is frustrating as well. I wish I
could either be like you guys, or be like those who can cry when they
need to. I'm just stuck somewhere between, I guess. Perhaps an event
like this art exhibit would have been good for someone like me. I am
sorry that this event could not be beneficial to all people, but I am
glad that some were helped. It certainly raised awareness of the issue,
and brought it out in the open for many people.
>
> sorry to go off on this rant.
I am sorry that the things I say incite you to rant ;-)
mdove
>
> it sounds like a generally good
> exhibit. i'm sorry that you didn't get to see it, Dove. but maybe
> you can feel a bit better bc you didn't unknowingly oppress ppl
> like J/c and me by contributing to it.
>
> i am sorry that you didn't get to go. :-( that bites.
>
> e
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Cliff
> >
J/c wrote
> > Your right!!
> >
> > Me bad!!!
> >
> > **Bad J./c..bad bad girl!!!!
>
Yes I can see that Sierra... But fwiw you are saying that my *reality* is
wrong..
As I have been told my whole life!!
wrong is bad, wrong must be c*t out
> I don't think
> anyone is bad bc there is an absence of tears, inability to cry or
> whatever. Not at all.
But you do question, if a person doesn't cry because they find they have no
reason to cry.....
>
> > You know that your reality can't be right!!! Your whole life people have
> > been telling you that every facit of your existance is wrong.. you
> > bad...You are flawed in every aspect of humanity.. you are not human..
> > you bad bad girl!!
>
> Imho, you're not.
No but you imply that my reality is wrong
To me....wrong is bad
>
> > WWWAHHHH OK I be good! Can someone tell me what is broken... and maybe
> > some suggestions on how to fix it so that I might please you!!
>
> A really, really long time ago, I didn't cry and when I could, I
definitely
> didn't cry where others could see I was crying. For me, crying made me too
> embarassed and vulnerable to the powers at be. Also, I had two other
> feelings which competed so greatly with my sadness that it more than less,
> overpowered the sadness and any inclination to cry. For me, it was when
> these other two feelings had a place and the freedom to be felt that
> eventually I found my sadness and the loss that I had desparately denied.
Yes Sierra I do know about sadness, I do know about anger, I walk the
walk... I talk the talk... I am very generous with my emotions.... I shed
many tears and hold on to much sadness for *others*!
There is no self here to feel sorrow for... no self to anger o'er
violation... no self to grieve for.. no self to invest into!
Why is there an insistance that there must be a self?
Btw... I'm glad that you found a connection with your sadness... I have no d
oubt that for most people ..that is the way to recovery
>
> > I don't wanna be bad...
>
> I know. *softly said*
>
> > I'll cut out my s*ul just to please you.....
>
> No thank you! Keep your s*ul. :o)
Nope think that went out in the bathwater? :o)
>
> > oh wait we already did that... Hmmmm what else do have of value that I
> > can sacrifice so I can be more like the human race!!
>
> Hmm, I didn't mean to imply that you weren't a part of the human race,
J/c.
No but if (from outsiders viewpoint) all of my realities differ so greatly
from that what is considered human... ..
It does re-enforce the feelings that you describe below...
> Sadly though, I think not feeling a part of the human race is a common
> experience amongst ab*se survivors. I know I've felt that way on many
> occasions. I believe there was a thread started a while back by Nancy that
> spoke a lot to this.
>
> In closing, I know ppl cope in all sorts of ways and feel in many ways.
For
> me, I know what it's like to be tearless and to have tears. There was a
> time when I didn't believe myself capable of tears and had convinced
myself
> they didn't exist for me. Practically everything you and e have said I can
> relate to at one time in my life. I can even relate to the questioning of
> normalcy and standards. For me, the questioning and criticizing of
> standards was my way of trying to keep the wall I had built erect and
> inpenetrable. Thankfully, I had a few someones in my life who weren't
> willing to buy into and cater to my clever and not-so-clever distractions,
> deflections and defenses.
Yes I understand this... I'm glad that you found those someones!!
I still think it is pretentious to say that everybody has to be this way!!!
sorry
> I'm glad I found my tears, not just for myself
> but for my children as well. I didn't want to raise my children
> role-modeling a -very- narrow range of emotion.
Oh yes lets throw that into the picture!!
When I became a single parent... the FOO conspired to take my daughter from
me! Questioning my *human-ness* or lack there of...
due to the effect this would have on my ability to raise her properly...
Me bad... me do best me can without having concern for self... but still me
bad!! My daughter has a few minor problems...yes.
Me sorry .... FOO would have done a better job!
(afterall look what they did for me and they weren't viewed as emtionally
handicapped!)
J/c
>
> Sierra of TN
astri
wrote:
>Hello e,
[...]
>Excuse me for asking the obvious here, but if you've never
>permitted, allowed, had tears surrounding one's abuse how
>do you know that it wouldn't help you to have them, e?
>(Slight detour from my otherwise respectful position to not
>comment on your personal life - apologies if my Q is too...
>well, too whatever you feel like labeling it).
[...]
if you've never permitted, allowed or tried integr*tion, how do you
know that it wouldn't help you to do it? I think the analogy is
perfectly parallel.
-- astri
Ross Tyler
mosaics wrote:
> > Hi..ya Sierra
>
> Hello J/c,
>
> > > > Your right!!
> > > >
> > > > Me bad!!!
> > > >
> > > > **Bad J./c..bad bad girl!!!!
> > >
> > > J/c, bad isn't what I'm saying. I hope you can see that.
> >
> > Yes I can see that Sierra... But fwiw you are saying that my *reality* is
> > wrong..
>
> I've reread what I've written and I don't see where you are getting that
> message in anything I've said.
>
> > As I have been told my whole life!! wrong is bad, wrong must be c*t out
>
> This is definitely -not- what I'm saying.
>
> > > I don't think anyone is bad bc there is an absence of tears, inability
> > > to cry or whatever. Not at all.
> >
> > But you do question, if a person doesn't cry because they find they have
> > no reason to cry.....
>
> No, I'm not saying this either. Maybe there's another way I can describe
> what I am saying. I'll think on it.
>
> > > > You know that your reality can't be right!!! Your whole life people
> > > > have been telling you that every facit of your existance is wrong..
> > > > you bad...You are flawed in every aspect of humanity.. you are not
> > > > human.. you bad bad girl!!
> > >
> > > Imho, you're not.
> >
> > No but you imply that my reality is wrong To me....wrong is bad
>
> I understand that you think wrong = bad. I'm not implying your reality is
> wrong. Like I said, maybe I need to think on how to say what I'm saying
> differently.
>
> > > > WWWAHHHH OK I be good! Can someone tell me what is broken... and
> > > > maybe some suggestions on how to fix it so that I might please you!!
> > >
> > > A really, really long time ago, I didn't cry and when I could, I
> > > definitely didn't cry where others could see I was crying. For me,
> > > crying made me too embarassed and vulnerable to the powers at be. Also,
> > > I had two other feelings which competed so greatly with my sadness that
> > > it more than less, overpowered the sadness and any inclination to cry.
> > > For me, it was when these other two feelings had a place and the
> > > freedom to be felt that eventually I found my sadness and the loss that
> > > I had desparately denied.
> >
> > Yes Sierra I do know about sadness, I do know about anger, I walk the
> > walk... I talk the talk... I am very generous with my emotions.... I shed
> > many tears and hold on to much sadness for *others*! There is no self
> > here to feel sorrow for... no self to anger o'er violation... no self to
> > grieve for.. no self to invest into!
>
> *nodding* I have the feeling that when or if this absence of Self is no
> longer, that there may be more about yourself which may
> come forth that maybe even you didn't know was there :o)
> (self-discovery).
>
> > Why is there an insistance that there must be a self?
>
> Maybe bc it makes a good point of reference? *grin* Seriously though....
> above and below you use "I" as self-referential, so on
> some level it appears that you identify a self.
>
> > Btw... I'm glad that you found a connection with your sadness... I have
> > no doubt that for most people..that is the way to recovery
>
> I don't know about recovery. For me, it's been about discovery. Growing up,
> I lived a life of indentured servitude. As children, the siblings used to
> joke about being slaves but it wasn't a joke, not really, it was a way of
> lightening the load, to make humorous the excrutiating, to rebel in
> disguise, to silently bond. I'm glad I found my sadness too, thanks. I
> really didn't enjoy very many things about life until I found my sadness,
> kinda strange how that turned out, huh? Like you, I could feel sadness for
> others but for myself was beyond my comprehension. It quite literally,
> didn't occur to me. I could tell tales about childhood to ppl and watch
> them squirm and cringe and to me, it was nothing, like I was sharing some
> storybook fairytale that though real was devoid of any intense emotion let
> alone sadness / tears. It just, was. Anyway, I had several really good ppl
> in my life who challenged me to question my preconceived / set notions
> about myself (and others) and who helped me get excited about discovering
> who I am, to help me to realize that I am 'a work of art in progress'. I
> work to hold on to that guidance in my life as I think it's one that I can
> continually relate to. Sorry, I got a bit long-winded there. Yeah,
> connection was the key.
>
> > > > I don't wanna be bad...
> > >
> > > I know. *softly said*
> > >
> > > > I'll cut out my s*ul just to please you.....
> > >
> > > No thank you! Keep your s*ul. :o)
> >
> > Nope think that went out in the bathwater? :o)
>
> Oh no! Time to draw a new bath, I think. *grin*
>
> > > > oh wait we already did that... Hmmmm what else do have of value that
> > > > I can sacrifice so I can be more like the human race!!
> > >
> > > Hmm, I didn't mean to imply that you weren't a part of the human race,
> > > J/c.
> >
> > No but if (from outsiders viewpoint) all of my realities differ so
> > greatly from that what is considered human..... It does re-enforce the
> > feelings that you describe below...
>
> *nodding* Yeah, I can see how one leads to the other. :o(
>
> This is the weird thing to me... I think your realities and mine way back
> when were/are right-on spot. There was nothing 'wrong'
> with how I was. Nothing 'wrong' with how you are. What was
> happening for me (you?) afaic, IS also a part of being human and so is the
> discovery of who I've evolved to and still evolving into. It all counts.
>
> > > Sadly though, I think not feeling a part of the human race is a common
> > > experience amongst ab*se survivors. I know I've felt that way on many
> > > occasions. I believe there was a thread started a while back by Nancy
> > > that spoke a lot to this.
> > >
> > > In closing, I know ppl cope in all sorts of ways and feel in many ways.
> > > For me, I know what it's like to be tearless and to have tears. There
> > > was a time when I didn't believe myself capable of tears and had
> > > convinced myself they didn't exist for me. Practically everything you
> > > and e have said I can relate to at one time in my life. I can even
> > > relate to the questioning of normalcy and standards. For me, the
> > > questioning and criticizing of standards was my way of trying to keep
> > > the wall I had built erect and inpenetrable. Thankfully, I had a few
> > > someones in my life who weren't willing to buy into and cater to my
> > > clever and not-so- clever distractions, deflections and defenses.
> >
> > Yes I understand this... I'm glad that you found those someones!! I still
> > think it is pretentious to say that everybody has to be this way!!! sorry
>
> *nodding* I don't think I'm saying everyone has to have tears re: their
> abuse. I do think they can be helpful and cleansing to the heart and s*ul
> when that intensity of self-identification, acknowledgment and depth /
> range of emotion is reached. Granted, ime, they don't do much for the mind
> in the moment. *grin* I think I'm saying that I understand what it's like
> to have this absence and that this has been my experience along the way and
> that if I were to see a person absent a significant aspect of the human
> experience, I'd think that something(s) heavily contributed-contributes to
> that reality, to maintaining that reality.
>
> I think I'm also saying... leave yourself open, J/c for discovering new
> areas about yourself. Your reality now may not be your reality in the
> years, months or even days to come. Who knows, you might surprise yourself.
> I know I was surprised. I don't think I'll ever forget my first tears.
> Maybe your new reality in the days to come won't be the addition of tears,
> maybe it'll be something
> else that brings more of you to you. *think possibility*
>
> > > I'm glad I found my tears, not just for myself
> >
> > > but for my children as well. I didn't want to raise my children
> > > role-modeling a -very- narrow range of emotion.
> >
> > Oh yes lets throw that into the picture!!
>
> It's an important one. I'm a parent and how I feel (or don't feel) affects
> them.
>
> > When I became a single parent... the FOO conspired to take my daughter
> > from me! Questioning my *human-ness* or lack there of... due to the
> > effect this would have on my ability to raise her properly...
>
> *nodding*
>
> Something I -really- questioned myself about before and after I
> had children.
>
> > Me bad... me do best me can without having concern for self... but still
> > me bad!! My daughter has a few minor problems...yes. Me sorry.... FOO
> > would have done a better job! (afterall look what they did for me and
> > they weren't viewed as emotionally handicapped!)
>
> Boy, I really tripped on a sore spot, huh? I'm sorry, J/c. I just wanted to
> share what my motivation was about, that it wasn't just for me, that I had
> children to role-model for. Boy, do I know how awesome and big this
> responsibility can feel / is. Hey, if your daughter's problems are minor
> then perhaps you might give yourself some credit? *encouraging nudge* We're
> all trying our best and hopefully, it will be good enough. :o)
>
> Sierra of TN
> -------------------------------------------------------------- "mosaics"
i support you Sierra of TN. There is much to say regarding the human
experience. one is knowing that you are making sense to me at least . Such a
lot of words and work to keep one from feeling vulnerable. Aquestion/ Have any
of you who claim such things at any time in your life did you hold back these
things called tears? and if you did why?. Never? okay, got it. Why is it that a
common theme I see amongst such, feelings or lack of . I see contempt. As if
doing it is a weakness, as well as not doing it , is seen by some as a
weakness. I think neither.
Interesting again how all this talk about yes or no, prevents us from focusing
on whatever the real problem might be. talk on. Ecc
Cliff
Welcomes to the conversation :o)
How's about we do a great big snip
Sierra wrote:
> > Crying is a part of the human experience, e. It's like smiling. If I
never
> > saw a person smile, I would think something was terribly absent from
their
> > human experience. So, I guess you can count me in on those ppl who sees
> > crying as a healthy release which ppl will get to in their own time.
Imho,
> > abuse happens to the mind, heart and s*ul. My tears are the language of
my
> > heart and s*ul. When they are absent, it's bc my mind works overtime.
> >
ECC wrote:
>
> i support you Sierra of TN. There is much to say regarding the human
> experience. one is knowing that you are making sense to me at least . Such
a
> lot of words and work to keep one from feeling vulnerable. Aquestion/ Have
any
> of you who claim such things at any time in your life did you hold back
these
> things called tears? and if you did why?. Never? okay, got it.
First lets make sure that we're all in the same ballpark :o)
The team(non-feeler) that this pitcher is on.. Is claiming that we have no
self!
And me cannots recall shedding a tear over anything re. self....
I do however cry freely for others and their issues.
and Hold'em back.......... sure
Don't want ppl to think we're crazy .. do ya? ;)
There a few other players on this team(non-feeler) that have different
points of view for their situation..
Perhaps we'll hear from them!!
>Why is it that a
> common theme I see amongst such, feelings or lack of . I see contempt. As
if
> doing it is a weakness, as well as not doing it , is seen by some as a
> weakness. I think neither.
Oh.. I see no contempt here at all ECC
A rather brisk discussion at the very most :o)
Some of us do tend to get a bit melodramatic ;)
But you see what you've done here?
First you sided with Sierra
then you say that it is a non discussion....
*Non-feelers wrong ...I don't wanna talk about it!!*
This is why e posted about this in the first place!
It's not you personally ECC
It is the attitude which e feel permiates ASD..
And the theraputic community...
She feels left out... :o(
> Interesting again how all this talk about yes or no, prevents us from
focusing
> on whatever the real problem might be.
Guess you haven't been here long enough to know me yet.. :o)
Let me intro.. myself
This is me at work...focusin' reeeeeal hard on my problems... ;)
My problems aren't the same as everybody else!
>
I feel left out also..
Because everyone believes that my lack of self, is a non issue
If I fail to find it... I'm not trying hard enough! ...
* non-feeler wrong ...I don't wanna talk about it*
> talk on. Ecc
Shall do :o) Please join in the more the merrier.. :o)
J/c
> P.S. No need to intro the other team(feeler) I think we met them all
>VBG<
mischa bach
>Okay, 3:24 in the morning and I get a little time. Don't ask. You'll just
>end up thinking I'm dissociative as all get out 8))
hehe
btw, that's another striking thing we sorta found out when talking to other
folks who are with JES. like when we first went to one of their bigger
meetings sometime in May, we decided to introduce ourselves as, well, as what
we are - many (or as multi-junkies as they started to call us *g*). okay, so
that meant we had to explain not only multiplicity but also dissociation.
usually, this means we have to come up with a couple of examples for
dissociation (ya know, starting with stuff like highway hypnosis, daydreams,
dissing when in a state of - physical - shock, etc.). so far, in our
experience most people would need a handful of such examples while actors
just needed two or three examples to get it.
to our surprise, it seems totally different with ex/junkies. they seem to
know dissociation very well - in fact, at first, they wouldn'T get why we
were trying to explain such a 'common phenomenon' and then they reacted like
'oh, so this stuff got a name and non-junkies/non-dissoids think it's not
normal?!'
we don't have a clue yet why that is - and we aren't just talking about
dissing out while using. it's really amazing, folks started to contact us to
talk about it more, people told us how they've since then been trying to
figure out this talking to friends, etc. strange, huh?
>check me out at the bottom.
okay :-)
but we'll do some snipping & editing or we'll get lost here! :-)
[...]
>Listen, I'd like to meet you, too, mc.
Yes! :-)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
(or should we say "Jes?" *gg*)
> Right now, I just wanna say, in response to your projects, that I
>started smoking pot when I was 11. By 15 I was strung out on speed. I
>dropped my first acid on my 16th bday. By 17 I was firing smack, a >habit that lasted for ten years.
as far as we have been able to reconstruct the time-lines (we wanted to to do
this for quite a while and then another woman who's with JES needed people to
help with her diploma by filling out some questionnaire - and, boy, did we
end up confused about stuff like time and dosage and whatnot!) we must've
started smoking pot around 14, then did some experimenting with lots and lots
of stuff (but no acid - seems we all have a real deep dislike for chemicals
;-) and at the age of 17 (or thereabouts ... that's one of the things we
can't be sure of) several of us started doing smack. Till that infamous od
shortly before our 21rst b-day which changed a lot of things very, very
drastically (though back then, most of us were unaware of them changes).
>Every member of my family has used my aberrant behaviors to explain >the dysfunction of the family. But I see it differently. I think that my
>parents raised me to be that scapegoat. I think they vented their
>frustrations, a variety of types of frustrations, in a variety of types of
>*bses of me. When I developed and adopted certain behaviors to try >and self-medicate (as they say) and forget or dissociate from the pain >they used those behaviors to justify the bizarre ways in which they >treated me, even before the behaviors. (The logic and psychology of >committing *bse, I think.)
*nodding sadly*
You know, our family pretty much reacted to it like to anything else about
the usses which might 've been strange, like they reacted to all our other
reactions to the *buse we went through (including Mashora telling them about
some of it in no uncertain terms when we were 14) - they simply didn't react
at all. Partly they claim they didn't notice it, partly they claim they
noticed some of it but didn't think it so bad, and partly they claimed they
thought we still seemed very much able to handle stuff okay. Yeah, right ....
*sigh*
Prolly that's just the difference between the logic and psychology of
something like "active *buse" vs. the logic and psychology of "passive *buse"
(or plainly, looking the other way).
> Now I use x*nx. Mh pros prescribe it.
We don't use meds, apart from some painkillers you get without prescription
over here which sometimes helps us with migraines. For some reason we never
really understood redular meds tend to work very weird and unpredictable
while so-called illegal drugs (esp. pot & opiates) work smooth and
predictable with the usses.
And so our t'pist as well as our doc's know we'll smoke pot to deal with
anxiety attacks and/or eating problems and sometimes for fun ('g') and they
think, it's okay.
> I'd still rather use opiates. They calm me better than vitamin x and
>they don't leave my brain feeling bleached. Also, the side effects are
>fewer and lesser and much more reversable.
*nodding*
that's something we never really got. it seems so stupid. opiates seem among
the very few potent drugs with little to no side effects, at least no heavy
ones (not counting what's called their addictive potential - but that also
seems generally overrated). but as long as you don't have something like
cancer in its final stages, it seems a big taboo with the mh community.
>But, xnx it is because that's all they'll prescribe. I'm going to try and >get off of it. I dislike it.
:-((((
so we hope you'll get off it.
as we said, we never tried it, yet who would want a bleached brain?!
>I guess I should aim for being entirely drug free. But I dunno. The
>world is filled with terrible pain. Is it really sane for me not to try and
>buffer it?
hehe well, we're sure the last who'd say "you have to be entirely drug free".
that's just plain stupid in our eyes, and it seems unfair, too. 'cuz well,
most people think alcohol is okay, very much acceptable, at least, as long as
you use it as a recreational drug only and aren't addicted to it. also, those
who'll tell you, you mustn't drink coffee or tea due to the fact caffeine is
a drug, are even fewer. but talk about illegalized substances and people will
react completely different - especially, if they have no experience with
those substances whatsoever.
and then ... sometimes we'll use loud music and dancing till total exhaustion
to change how we feel. sometimes it'll be yoga. sometimes (in the past) we'd
go horseriding - so, what's bad about wanting to change how you feel, what's
so horrible if you feel you can't take it anymore to retreat temporarily to
something else, whatever it may be?
dunno if you know Neil G*iman's S*ndman Series (splatted for search engines).
dunno in which book this quote is, but we simply loved it: "You know", Death
(Sandman's older sister) says, "we all know all there is to know. But in
order to keep going on, we pretend to ourselves we don't."
And sometimes, simply pretending doesn't do the job.
>Anyway, were I to attend the meetings that you describe I would >probably say some of this stuff.
Oh that would be soso wonderful! *smiling*
>Thank you, again.
You are welcome, trill, soso much welcome with the usses. *big broad smile*
mischa's chaos
(mostly Fletcher, Punk & Mashora)
mischa bach
good to see you again and talk to you again! :-)
unfortunately we lost your original post. :-(((
only thing I remember is that you were asking how's joining JES for me.
Well ... good. *grin*
It seems typically that I tried to get in touch with them a long while ago
but somehow got lost on the way. And even the more typically that Punk just
sat his mind to finding out about them for real and did it in a couple of
days. Which I don't mind. That's just how he is. *g*
At first, I was a bit concerned. I mean, JES is totally accepting, regardless
what choice concerning drugs a person makes. So it was clear from the start
joining them meant dealing a lot closer with junkies than even living right
in the middle of the drug-scene gets you. But that's so much okay ... hard to
explain, it comes down to finally being at home somewhere.
Like ... I had a lotta trouble dealing with some stuff which was ultimately a
result of that stupid od all those years back. There was so much sadness, I
was even sorta depressed - 'cuz, well, some time in the beginning of this
year I realized, the od meant not only me being dead and gone for eight
years, it also still means the life the others build up in the mean time
isn't a life I'd have chosen. Or at least not a life I had a part in
building. So I felt useless, empty, like a cast off from another age or
something. I still sometimes feel that way but it's getting better.
Plus, when it comes to JES, I like the attitude of the folks we've met
through them so far a lot. They're very straightforward, yet in a
non-threatening manner. They don't try to tell me how I should feel even
though some people find it hard to understand how comes I'm a male in a
female body. Yet, their response is curiosity. They ask stuff, they talk to
the usses and to me, they even appreciate the chaotic way in which we come up
with new ideas all the time.
Ya know, when we went to a state-wide JES meeting in May, we told them we
first had tried to find other multiples who got ex/junkies in their system
and failed. Failed cuz that seemed a big taboo (esp. over here in Germany).
In the end, one of the participants of that meeting just smiled at us and
said "I'm glad it didn't work out with you and the other multiples. 'cuz
otherwise you wouldn't be here." Now that was a real nice way to say
welcome! :-))))
okay, that's all I can think of now. hey, if you still got your original
reply, could you please send it again? It's really too stupid we lost it.
Fletcher
Cliff
> > Hi..ya Sierra
Back again :o)
Lets snip down to the question/s I would really like to rspond to... :o)
>
>
> > Why is there an insistance that there must be a self?
>
> Maybe bc it makes a good point of reference? *grin*
Actually though *self* is most often thought to be that what represents who
we are... and in the case of DID that which has been torn, splintered,
dislocated, disconnected!
(in a nutshell)
I believe that *self* is much more primal....
A new born must either be born with a *self* or learns of it in the first
few hours of life... the smallest insect must have an awarness of self when
it is hatched...Any living thing must have this awareness in order to know
that it must seek out nourishment for *self*
I believe that in the natural world any creature born without a *self* will
perish within hours/days
I am certain it happens though....
I believe that I, a few others, and many more to come have survived without
a *self* only due to *heroic efforts* on the part of the society in which we
live...
Call me *Frank*nstien's m*nster twisted sister... ;o)
A man made freak of nature!
Under our societies decree.. all that can be kept alive shall recieve
whatever heroic efforts it takes to keep alive..
I had to be force fed for my first three years 'till I learned through
behaviour modification techniques that it was my responsiblity to survive...
and did/do so because others wish us too...
Those of us that naturally would have perished are then left to find their
way in a world without peers/ models to show us how to fit into this world
that we are so alien to..
(there is no other living thing..like us)
Without this primal self... the self that gets the most *press* >wink<
cannot be possible...
Seriously though....
> above and below you use "I" as self-referential, so on
> some level it appears that you identify a self.
I, we, us,sie,hir. me
yup... been studying communication for 50 yrs now actually participating
somewhat for the last 34 :o)
Didn't take long to learn that any one of these words would indicate the
designation of this organism..
we use them interchangably....
>
> > Btw... I'm glad that you found a connection with your sadness... I have
> > no doubt that for most people..that is the way to recovery
>
> I don't know about recovery. For me, it's been about discovery. Growing
up,
> I lived a life of indentured servitude. As children, the siblings used to
> joke about being slaves but it wasn't a joke, not really, it was a way of
> lightening the load, to make humorous the excrutiating, to rebel in
> disguise, to silently bond. I'm glad I found my sadness too, thanks. I
> really didn't enjoy very many things about life until I found my sadness,
> kinda strange how that turned out, huh? Like you, I could feel sadness for
> others but for myself was beyond my comprehension. It quite literally,
> didn't occur to me. I could tell tales about childhood to ppl and watch
> them squirm and cringe and to me, it was nothing, like I was sharing some
> storybook fairytale that though real was devoid of any intense emotion let
> alone sadness / tears. It just, was. Anyway, I had several really good ppl
> in my life who challenged me to question my preconceived / set notions
> about myself (and others) and who helped me get excited about discovering
> who I am, to help me to realize that I am 'a work of art in progress'. I
> work to hold on to that guidance in my life as I think it's one that I can
> continually relate to. Sorry, I got a bit long-winded there. Yeah,
> connection was the key.
Hey its nice to see you get a bit long winded Sierra :o)
I have heard you mention little snippets of your childhood.
Glad to see our finding ways to talk about stuff...
Though that sadness must be so hard to deal with I think it is good to
connect with in too so that it can be dealt with in perspective.... sorry
that you had to have that sadness dealt to you though :o(
>
> I think I'm also saying... leave yourself open, J/c for discovering new
> areas about yourself. Your reality now may not be your reality in the
> years, months or even days to come. Who knows, you might surprise
yourself.
Don't worry Sierra I think I am open to the discoveries of many
enlightening and interesting things re... this organism
;)
>
> Boy, I really tripped on a sore spot, huh? I'm sorry, J/c. I just wanted
to
> share what my motivation was about, that it wasn't just for me, that I had
> children to role-model for. Boy, do I know how awesome and big this
> responsibility can feel / is. Hey, if your daughter's problems are minor
> then perhaps you might give yourself some credit?
Hey don't ya get it.. there is no one here to give credit to..;)
Tripped a sore spot I'll say.....:o)
I didn't actually find out about the conspiracy till several yrs later....
And let me tell you I was totally irate when I heard about it.... And I
sure let them know about it too.
Think it was the angriest experience in my life...
(sounds pretty human ... eh!!)
>
I totally freaked out on them ... They had no freaking right to take a
chance on my daughters welfare....
If they thought that I would have been bad for her in anyway ... THEY SHOULD
HAVE DONE SOMETHING!
For them to even consider that my needs were important at all.. was bad
enough, but to give them any weight in balancing the needs of my daughter
was almost unforgiivable....
I'm certain I would have d*ed had they taken her from me but that wasn't the
question!
Don't worry I proved that their fears were for naught..
Most of my daughters problems that she attributes to my parenting.. as she
is maturing now into a young woman she is seeing that they are things that
she will/is growing out of... couldn't cry...... hmmm since she's met her
first real boyfriend all of a sudden ... yuppers... *D*d I can cry!*
It is so cute....... sad but cute!!! :o)
J/c
Nancewt
is harmful and controlling both to teach children (or anyone, for that matter)
that they are supposed to cry, or that it is bad to cry. I think ideally
crying, laughing, talking, physical movement, withdrawal, dissociation, art
work, isolating, writing, etc. should all be considered equally valid forms of
expression and children should be given freedom to express or not express
themselves as they wish. I think it is bad to teach children that emotions
are necessary, and equally bad to teach them that emotions are bad. I think it
can help to just teach kids that emotions are okay, crying is okay, wanting to
be by yourself is ok, wanting help from others is ok, etc, and there is no
better or worse. There are studies (I don't know the citations off-hand) that
indicate that developmentally disabled children and adults cry much more
infrequently than non-disabled children and adults, because caregivers tend to
be more controlling with DD kids and adults, and to teach that crying and
expressing emotions is "bad." I find this very disturbing. I find it just as
disturbing when mental health professionals try to force people to express
feelings that may just not be there. When I was on one medication, I cried
about once a week, when for years prior to that medication, I had never cried.
The doctor said it was because the medication lifted my depression so that I
was able to cry. I don't buy this. I think the medication artificially induced
something that wasn't there before. I think that I am just someone who
naturally does not cry, whether because I was born that kind of person, or
because I had head injuries as a child, or because I was taught by one of my
ab*sers that all feelings are bad, crying is bad, and no expression of feeling
is allowed, or because one of my other ab*sers liked to make me cry and got
pleasure out of it and I often refused to cry to annoy that person for my own
entertainment, or because I felt that crying would make my ab*sers have too
much information about me because they'd see what hurt me most so I didn't want
to do that, or maybe some other reason. I've been told that I rarely cried
even as an infant, that I just stared at blank walls for hours from the time I
was taken home from the hospital and didn't demand much, and that as a toddler
and young child I never cried, so I think I probably was just born this way. I
also believed for many years that I was not human, that I had no self because
an object can't have a self, and so of course crying makes no sense. This
belief of mine has changed in the past couple years, and I also have
experienced more feelings in the past couple years, but I don't think this is
necessarily better or worse, or necessary, or the path for everyone. It's just
the way it has happened to work out so far for me. I think all different ways
of being and not-being need to be accepted and not judged. As a t, the only
time I can recall ever trying to get someone to express feelings they denied
has been with one client who says he is "fine" and has no feelings, but
continuously binges on alcohol, eats himself sick, and engages in some s*icidal
gestures. With this one person, I do tend to think that there are repressed
feelings there, and that if he could express them more freely, it might help.
But I don't know if I am right about this. I may not be. It's just a
possibility. Usually with clients of mine who say they have no feelings or
never cry or anything like that, I join their perception ("Why would anyone
want feelings? They're very inconvenient", "Why should you cry? What gives
anyone the right to try to make you cry?," etc), and in each of these cases,
we've developed a stronger therapeutic relationship and either the person
expressed relief that the lack of feelings had been understood,a nd was able to
focus on their own goals, or the person eventually developed feelings and felt
free to tell me about them without feeling controlled by me. This seemed to
work out both ways. I ahve one client who has sociopathic personality disorder
who feels that he "should" have certain feelings like sadness, regret, love,
empathy, guilt, etc., and he just doesn't. It's not part of who he is. I work
with him on remembering that harming people can put him in jail, but I can't
force him to have feelings and I have no right to make him feel inadequate for
not having them. Sometime he will say very artificial things about feelings
that he does not have,like, "I know I should feel guilty about cursing at him,"
and I'll say, "Why should you feel guilty? What's wrong with wanting to curse
at people? Why pretend to feel guilt?" and he'll laugh and say, "You're right,
I don't feel guilty, I never feel guilty, but I know I shouldn't ahve cursed
because I could end up in a fight and end up in the hospital." Trying to impose
feelings on him would just lead to him being more artifiical and less honest.
Anyway, I'm rambling now. I guess my main point is that we all follow different
paths.
-Nancy
craze...@webtv.net
i think itis important to include rather than exclude people. i am
sensitive to this issue abandonement becaus i have seen myself try to
learn and turn to groups to observe and learn, wanting to fit in even if
i didn't have qualifying credentials. fitting in anywhere in a group has
been difficult and groups of people have been nearly a dream for me. i
have been a member of a group, like a theater group (to do a play) and
the experience was tremedously pleasing, but also sensory overloading
because i knew i was being accepted and strangly enough i tried to keep
back some to protect them and me.
i was always neglected in groups in school. i was never chosen to be a
part of anything, and later as a result i hated to be even considered.
there are other groups as well, groups i have needed to identify with.
take being a male, for example. growing up, i was always more in
identity with being a female, but i also knew i wanted male
characteristics. i tried to, by placing myself in wha i thought were
jobs that fit into my being male. although i wasn't an athlete, ever, i
went for jobs that i identified as male. i wanted more of what i thought
a male in our society should be. i never found any positive role models
in society, certainly not out of hollywood. i never felt i was a good
male, and after many years i gave up. now i am me, nothing i expected
and happier for it.
in a way, society tole me what a male should be. nevermind hollywood,
the whole male image was, as i look at it, media marketed, with new
trends coming at me every year. that's the problem with not knowing who
exactly i was, i searched to fit in.
so here is where the crying plays in:
spoilered for light talk of ab*se, and emotions:
some splats, talk of off*nder signs, male identity, r*pe... tears,
be*tings
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in a way i felt i was being told how a male should be, not only by my
peers, with the usual negativity, usually pointing out the femnine stuff
a male shouldn't possess, like feelings and certain displays of
emotions. anger was ok if for fighting, identifyed as a strength for
physical accomplishments (i never fought). in any case, all the
expectations and critisisms i processed, the messages from society,
drove me further into confusion. looking back i can see how i held back
the emotions from my parents in order for them not to have control over
me. certain things from me i wouldn't let them have. it worked. the
other emotions from the s*xual abuse, i feared to show.
years later i would acknowledge i could cry on a dime when alone,
watching a movie, or hearing a song. i never saw it a problem, i knew it
was and felt safer.
about the same time, i heard a new movement say, "ah gee, men don't
cry." so i did. some. it freaked out my girlfiends. i gave up on that
for a good many years.
so in a way i have felt pegged by society to be someone i ended up
trying to be, and it never worked. unfortunately, some of these, "you
should be like this, or like that," has played out into this recovery
stuff. i believe, as a male, perhaps for women to, men have gotten a
bummer rap for being seen in a certain negative light, something i am
very sensitive towards because i had to dig hard to identify with
women's issues to understand me.
to explain this phenomenon would be like trying to tell a twenty year
old how significant the original movie 2001: A Space Odessy was and how
disturbing it was when it was first released. trust me. finding no info
to identify my gender with ab*se, and r---, was tremendous. the info i
found was disturbing and frightening pulling me into the depths of
hopelessness. ok, melodramatic, but close to truth - very close.
in a way, i have succeded in finding my own truths, but not without
paying a high price in the search, sifting through so many
misconceptions by society in general, and beileving, and trusting
professionals when i reached out for help. in effect, i had to work with
the info that fit, but not readily make the info fit.
i have found very few women who were comfortable with my tears.
expressing with words, pain and hurt, yes, but i could see a
helplessness and a confusion in their faces when i cried. i think this
emotion is culturally confusing to all of us on different levels. i have
learned it's best not to lay this display of emotion on someone, more
for them than for me. so the practice of witholding tears, later
developing into suppression, with indetifying the feelings associated
with crying, occur inside, rather than outside.
the interesting thing i just remembered is, i have really cried in front
of men several times over the past eight years and i was very readily
accepted and comforted. these were not gay men either. huh, i didn't
remember this.
perhaps in society we create simplified images of thoughts, concepts,
principles, emotions, relationships, behaviors, values, in order to make
understandable complex things; we oversimplify and in the end confuse
some people. sadly, some people believe these simplifed examples as
exact truths. we end up pushing the envelope of simplifed conclusions as
well, leading people to believe these things as simple. as a result of
these conclusions, we have somehow created a norm, an expected point of
reference where few go beyond to see the the norm in the variences, and
degrees of deviation.
tears are not a part of recovery, nor are they an emotional response
measurable by good or bad, based on the amount of response displayed.
yet in this art exhibit, they have come to symbolize our hurt, an
example percieved as a common symbol people would identify with hurt.
that's ok, but we know there is really more to our experience.
for me, i would look for a male's art work. i would look for this
expression of my gender.
several years ago, i approached a local art establishement which
promotes local artist's work and also displays shows from outside,
touring exhibits based on various themes.
i asked if they would consider a show based on work done by survivors of
ab*se. the reaction was, how much would it cost, would the work put a
person in jeapordy, and really (?), men are ab*sed (the direct quote
was, "i think that is rather funny. i hadn't thought this was
possible.") i gave up after another attempt.
this past month, after learning of a texas judge who ruled to have s*x
offenders put warning signs in their yards to protect the community, i
wanted to put a sign in my yard saying, "a male lives here who was
ab*sed by a s*x offender."
sometimes i want to be a bit radical, in front,a and up front. i want to
say in a powerful way to society, i am here. not as a male mind you,
just so a survivor's voice can be heard. i have heard so many
misconceptions, faced fearful people, or worse yet, i heard nothing at
all.
ok, that was my spin.
thanks, cliff
Ross Tyler
e wrote:
> Ross Tyler wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >i support you Sierra of TN. There is much to say regarding the human
> >experience. one is knowing that you are making sense to me at least . Such a
> >lot of words and work to keep one from feeling vulnerable.
>
> did i suggest i wasn't vulnerable? just yesterday or the day
> before, i said i was. i'm very vulnerable. i don't equate crying
> with vulnerability.
>
Just because someone says they are vulnerable does not make it true. It just makes
little sense to say you have no emotions and then to say. I am vulnerable.
What is vulnerability? It is one of the things that may happen to humans, because
they do have feelings. otherwise what would it matter.?
You say , I have no emotions, it doesn't make sense. Now If you say, I don't
express my sadness through tears. I understand that. You frequently show different
degress of emotions . from anger , to kindness and disbelif. in these posts.
What are these? Are these not emotions.?
>
> do you? if so, why? do you think you're more vulnerable if you
> cry or less vulnerable if you don't? if so, in what way?
Not at all, though others may. I do think, to show anyone that I am having certain
feelings , such as sadness, regardless of the way I show it.let's them know
something about me. I may not want to show them that.
>
> i don't think crying makes ppl vulnerable. maybe that is a big
> difference in the way you and i look at things. maybe that is why
> you're reading denial and contempt into what J/c and i are saying
> when AFAICS there's no contempt or denial there. the only
> contempt i see is by some ppl (not most of the ppl with feelings
> who've been posting about this) who have feelings toward ppl who
> don't.
> I would not include j/c in this observation or conversastion.
If you have no feelings than I agree that contempt or denial would be impossible
for you to do. or understand. Eveb though you don.t feel emotions you are very
adept at identifying it in others???
>
> >Aquestion/ Have any
> >of you who claim such things at any time in your life did you hold back these
> >things called tears? and if you did why?.
>
> yes. i cried when it was my job as a sub. sometimes, to have some
> small amount of control, i stoopidly and stubbornly held back the
> tears bc i knew that my brother or other dom wanted them. and
> that it was one of the few things i could keep from them. at
> least i kept them from them until i got tired of whatever else
> they'd do to me if i didn't cry when they wanted. i wouldn't do
> that if i were in the situation now. i'd cry if i could. i'd find
> a way to get the drugs that allow me to do that.
>
Okay, what I see here , is a very legitamate reason for you thinking the way you
do.
What you are saying is that you can cry but only because , of a drug?
So it's not you then , that would actually cry? You are not responsible or the
author of such feelings? Now if this a function of damage to the tissue that was
inflicted by another amd that is the cause, I understand that. I can see where a
feeling of frustration would arise if a response to certain things did not bring
about , what others determine are "proper ways to show your grief". I disagree with
that.
>
> the following is not a direct response to your Q bc i wasn't
> holding back tears at the time but i think it's related. i
> sometimes enjoyed not crying when my mom would b*at the sh*t out
> of me for not crying. i thought it was funny bc it pissed her
> off. (she would have started be*ting me for some other reason -
> e.g., i'd "looked at her" in some bad way, according to her - but
> she wanted me to cry and beg. sometimes i wouldn't. just to be a
> brat, i guess.)
>
> i found the whole scenario amusing both at the time and later. it
> was esp funny and ironic bc her be*ting me on the head made it
> *less* likely that i'd have the feelings she seemed to want me to
> have bc i think that my lack of feelings is largely organic from
> the several hundred moderate - severe concussions i've had. so
> she was doing something to get me to have and show feelings that
> was making it very unlikely that i'd have them. i dunno why but
> her be*ting me in order to get me to cry - she'd flip out about
> it while she was b*ating me - amused me even though it meant that
> she'd be*t me more or maybe knock me out. hmmmm. maybe that's why
> i did it - i was hoping to be kn*cked out. ;-)
>
What you say here is an excellent reason , one may have come to the conclusion you
have. I have a thought here, that is . You were not even a player , just in the
wrong place at the wrong time. Your mom and others were dealing with adult problems
, and you happen to be in the way. You were nothing other than an object, to be
handled in what ever way they wanted? To think you were specialed out for anything
more is the thinking of a child.
>
> i think it's odd that some ppl, like my mom, my brother, and some
> of the ppl here, think it's that important to control ppl and how
> they react. i don't understand why my lack of feelings is so
> threatening to them. :-/ why does it bother ppl? i don't get
> it.
I think you said it best, this gives you some amount of control.
>
> i probably could have cried when my mom was b*ating me if i tried
> hard enough. but i didn't cry as a kid bc i was sad. i cried bc
> it was my job and someone (my dom) wanted me to. it's a sub
> thing. if you know about d/s, think about how it would be in the
> context of a bunch of unsupervised, sociopathic teenagers and a
> toddler - grade school kid. IOW more extreme, cruel, and out of
> control than most of the stuff you read. i was a sub. i didn't
> have anything, including feelings, unless my dom gave them to me.
You saw yourself only through the eyes of others!. What inconsistency. You are what
you are because of what they think at the time! You are more than that, but were
never given the opportunity to learn. Think of this in terms of your own child?
>
> >Never? okay, got it. Why is it that a
> >common theme I see amongst such, feelings or lack of . I see contempt.
>
> interesting. where do you see that? can you put some quotes in
> your reply? TIA
Yes , I can, there are several,here are just a few of what I refer to. Your
contempt for t's is a common theme throughout your posts.
number one RE: I don't sunsay 7:17 pm paragraph #3
number 2:RE: I don't 1230 pm paragraph #7
number # Re: I don't friday june 8th under spoiler
many more.
>
>
> >As if doing it is a weakness,
>
> i never said or suggested that. maybe you think that or used to
> think that and so assume that J/c and i do, too. i don't and i
> don't think J/c does, either.
>
Again I am only speaking to you. No one else
>
> >as well as not doing it , is seen by some as a weakness.
>
> yes. but not by me.
>
> >I think neither.
>
> i agree.
>
> >Interesting again how all this talk about yes or no, prevents us from focusing
> >on whatever the real problem might be.
>
> what do you think "the real problem" is? are you defining that
> for others or just yourself? and how is anyone preventing ppl
> from focusing on whatever they want to focus on? can you give
> examples or are you just making blind accusations? (which
> accusations - blind or not - are never appropriate here IMO.)
>
Again I will ask what are blind accusations?
>
> as J/c pointed out, first you agree with Sierra, then say that
> the ppl who disagree with you are "preventing [ppl] from focusing
> on . . . the real problem." IOW if we talk, we're avoiding "the
> real problem" and, by implication, are again bad. it doesn't seem
> that there's any way to win (or be OK in your book) except for us
> to completely agree with you. :-/
>
You are labeling yourself Good. or bad not me ! I'll just say it is a technique
used by some to prevent them seeing just what may be helpful to them . I am not
accusing you , of this , any longer . I just wanted us to take a look at what is
consuming us in discussion and is it relevant. Of course it is surely not up to me
, to decide , (what is relevant).
It is obvious that it is not relevant to me. I am unsure of what you refer to as
winning? I am only talking about , the reality of some who say I have no feelings!
>
> that's what i was complaining about in the first place.
>
Anyone who complains that people just don't understand people who have no feelings
, are having feelings ? No ?
>
> e
Ross Tyler
e wrote:
> e wrote:
>
> > i didn't cry as a kid bc i was sad. i cried bc
> >it was my job and someone (my dom) wanted me to. it's a sub
> >thing.
>
> i forgot to say that i think crying when you're sad is learned.
> it's not something that babies or kids automatically do. just bc
> you or most other ppl here learned that crying was how you showed
> sadness, doesn't mean that everyone did. IIRC some other cultures
> don't cry to show sadness. is that not ok to you? do you think
> they should all do it just bc that's what you learned so that's
> what you do?
> Crying by infants is something that I thought was a mechanisnm of
> survival If my daughters did'nt cry when they were just days old I may
> not have fed them , being so tired etc. Their yelling and tears
> brought me to them. Any comment on this?
>
> IMO ppl who expect others to cry when they're sad are simply
> imposing their own culturally-preferred means of expression on
> others. they don't want to let other ppl choose what means of
> expression is best for them. it's like they're saying "there are
> more of us so we're bigger and more powerful. we'll label you and
> call you names and ostracize or condemn you if you don't do what
> we want." it seems like bullying to me. i don't see how it's much
> different than what my mom or brother did. fwiw.
>
I see this as your perfect opportunity to teach. And if they persist
then I would no longer consider them as a healthy part of my life and
would exclude them, to the best of my ability. I would certainly exclude
them as someone I would reveal myself to. Frabkly I don't really care
what they think. Forcing anyone to do anything , is unhealthy.
regardless of most circumstances.
>
> why is one particular means of expressing sadness that important
> to some ppl here? not for themselves (which i understand and
> respect) but to think it's better for some other ppl than the way
> those ppl have chosen for themselves? that's what i don't
> understand. it seems perplexing and controlling and mean to me.
>
it is , if that is what they are trying to do.What I think of as mean,
is when someone expresses feelings and emotions and then are told , they
are perpetuating something that you don't understand., and are calling
harmful. Respectfully submitted Ecc
>
> e
Ross Tyler
Nancewt wrote:
I see myself as a teacher to my children, The very thing that has caused me so many
problems is that the adults said one thing and d id another. unfortunately as
humans we do have feelings and emotions and they come through.
Emotions may not be necssary but they are there and if you try and hide them
children know that too. In my family just because you did something nice did not
mean that you felft that way, To have no feelings to certain situations would even
be more confusing. There to me is nothing wrong in teaching children what is
socially acceptable, The hurtful thing would be to say , that anyone who did not
comply were of less value.
Nancewt
>unfortunately as
>humans we do have feelings and emotions and they come through.
>Emotions may not be necssary but they are there and if you try and hide them
>children know that too.
First of all, some people do not have the identity of being human. I think it
is not uncommon for those of us who have held the belief that we are not human,
to also not have feelings. Even for people who do consider themselves human,
emotions are not always there. It is not always a matter of hiding them, for
some people they may literally not be there. For example, people with
right-hemisphere brain damage have an extremely restricted range of emotion,
and often are completely flat in their affect. This is a medically accepted
fact. These people are not any less worthy of valuable or adequate or human
because of this way of being. And there are lots of other reasons why someone
may not have emotions. I don't think anyone on this thread is saying peoplw
should hide their feelings, just that feelings are not always there.
>There to me is nothing wrong in teaching children what is
>socially acceptable, The hurtful thing would be to say , that anyone who did
>not
>comply were of less value.
I agree with this. I think kids do need to learn a sense of what is going to
be expected out there in the world, and what is considered the norm. But I
think it is extremely important that kids also learn that what is the norm does
not mean what is best or preferable or idea, jsut the way the amjority does
things.
-Nancy
Ross Tyler
Nancewt wrote:
> Ecc wrote:
> >unfortunately as
> >humans we do have feelings and emotions and they come through.
> >Emotions may not be necssary but they are there and if you try and hide them
> >children know that too.
>
> First of all, some people do not have the identity of being human. I think it
> is not uncommon for those of us who have held the belief that we are not human,
> to also not have feelings. Even for people who do consider themselves human,
> emotions are not always there. It is not always a matter of hiding them, for
> some people they may literally not be there. For example, people with
> right-hemisphere brain damage have an extremely restricted range of emotion,
> and often are completely flat in their affect. This is a medically accepted
> fact. These people are not any less worthy of valuable or adequate or human
> because of this way of being. And there are lots of other reasons why someone
> may not have emotions. I don't think anyone on this thread is saying peoplw
> should hide their feelings, just that feelings are not always there.
Hello, I am very aware of certain problems with the brain that can cause just what
you refer to. I haven't seen evidence of that here.It is confusing to us to hear
someone say, they have no emotion , then go about having many of them.
To those of you who do not have identity of being human, if this is from physical
damage then I see. How accurate is it that a human being , is not a human being?
Reality or accuracy does not have to be a part of this way of thinking ?
Evev if they don.t think they are a human, they are.
If I have offened you with my observations , I do regret it. That is all they are ,
just my observations.
My own thoughts of worth , are constant throughout, to be alive , is worth.
>
> >There to me is nothing wrong in teaching children what is
> >socially acceptable, The hurtful thing would be to say , that anyone who did
> >not
> >comply were of less value.
>
> I agree with this. I think kids do need to learn a sense of what is going to
> be expected out there in the world, and what is considered the norm. But I
> think it is extremely important that kids also learn that what is the norm does
> not mean what is best or preferable or idea, jsut the way the amjority does
> things.
> -Nancy
Yes , past history has shown, that sometimes what the majority says and does makes
sense, and sometimes not. I don't think I have ever really identified this
majority, only what some people think ia the majority.
I think I am spent on this discussion, but thanks for the input.
Ecc
Ross Tyler
e wrote:
> Ross Tyler wrote:
>
> >Hi! See below
>
> hi. :-)
>
> >e wrote:
> >> Ross Tyler wrote:
> >> snip
> >>
> >> >i support you Sierra of TN. There is much to say regarding the human
> >> >experience. one is knowing that you are making sense to me at least . Such a
> >> >lot of words and work to keep one from feeling vulnerable.
> >>
> >> did i suggest i wasn't vulnerable? just yesterday or the day
> >> before, i said i was. i'm very vulnerable. i don't equate crying
> >> with vulnerability.
> >>
> >
> >Just because someone says they are vulnerable does not make it true.
>
> so are you suggesting that i'm not vulnerable?
>
> >It just makes
> >little sense to say you have no emotions and then to say. I am vulnerable.
> Mayby I can clear something up here, I was speaking specifcally of emotions and
> feelings. It is obvious that I am unable to keep with your degree of discussion, and
> knowledge. Okay, so are you emotionally vulnerable?
>
> why? i am vulnerable to being cold, being tired, having no
> energy. i am vulnerable to many things. do you think that
> emotional vulnerability is the only kind of vulnerability? i
> don't understand what you're saying here.
>
> >What is vulnerability? It is one of the things that may happen to humans, because
> >they do have feelings. otherwise what would it matter.?
>
> bc there are many kinds of vulnerability.
>
Okay I agree, how about the kind I am speaking of, that would be emotionl vulneribility.
>
> >You say , I have no emotions, it doesn't make sense.
>
> why not?
>
> >Now If you say, I don't
> >express my sadness through tears. I understand that. You frequently show different
> >degress of emotions . from anger , to kindness and disbelif. in these posts.
> >What are these? Are these not emotions.?
>
> how can you know if i'm feeling emotions? ppl who know me
> personally say that i don't show emotions and i say the same
> things to them that i do here. i'm trying to understand things. i
> like fairness and kindness and many things. but i don't think
> that means i have emotions. i think it's odd that you would think
> that you could determine that better than ppl who know me very
> well. i think it's odd that you would even think that it was
> possible for you to do so.
>
What else do you call that ? Just by saying you like something or perfer it over another
shows me that you are a very special individual with specific likes and dislikes, Usually
there is a reason, and it may have something to do with a multitude of things . I am
thinking that it has something to do with the feelings we have over what we have gone
through.
You are bringing this as yardstick to measure my knowledgr of you, I am only seeing what
I have read here. So if I haven't come ro the same conclusions as your friends , then I
must have inaccurate conclusions? It is odd to me that their idea of you is a measure you
use to see yourself. So if they think it it must be right?
Your anger at me for even suggesting that some of the things you say, or have done .
could lead me to believe you do have emotions Is significant .
>
> i'm not saying that you can't but it seems very odd and grandiose
> to me.
Speaking of grandiose , I would hope that you would never delete or change something I
wrote that had a spoiler , because you deem it not necessary.I see this as clearly making
judgements. about what others may think or feel.
>
> i think that perhaps you're getting confused bc you're reading
> *your* emotions into what i say. it's called projection. maybe
> you could read about it and figure out if you're doing it.
it is true I am getting confused. I think for good reason. The rules here and
definitions , im my mind seem to change frequently.
>
> i think maybe if you said something like that it would be bc you
> felt a certain way. but that's the logical fallacy of "when i
> feel X, i say A. you've said, A. therefore, you feel X." that's
> illogical. and it's often wrong.
> >>
> >> do you? if so, why? do you think you're more vulnerable if you
> >> cry or less vulnerable if you don't? if so, in what way?
> >
> >Not at all, though others may. I do think, to show anyone that I am having certain
> >feelings , such as sadness, regardless of the way I show it.let's them know
> >something about me. I may not want to show them that.
>
> i can understand that. i show my close friends things that i
> wouldn't show other ppl.
Right that shows your ability to trust.
>
> >>
> >> i don't think crying makes ppl vulnerable. maybe that is a big
> >> difference in the way you and i look at things. maybe that is why
> >> you're reading denial and contempt into what J/c and i are saying
> >> when AFAICS there's no contempt or denial there. the only
> >> contempt i see is by some ppl (not most of the ppl with feelings
> >> who've been posting about this) who have feelings toward ppl who
> >> don't.
> >> I would not include j/c in this observation or conversastion.
> >
> >If you have no feelings than I agree that contempt or denial would be impossible
> >for you to do. or understand.
>
> why would it be impossible for me to understand something that i
> don't experience? maybe i don't understand it as completely as
> someone else but i think i can understand some of it. e.g., i
> think i can understand something about what it's like to be a
> male bc i've known many. some of my best friends are men. (no,
> for real. ;)
>
> and, as Beauty and i were saying, i don't think anyone can really
> understand what another person is feeling. bc i think that your
> experience of sadness is different than anyone else's. so,
> according to your logic, no one can ever talk about sadness or
> contempt.
>
In this I do not come to the same conclusion as you, I see it as a forum of talking about
many things , in many ways. Safe. I think it is fine to talk about both , what I have a
problem with is someone saying they don't have it.When they clearly say it with their
words.
>
> btw, i never said that i'd never used denial. i have. and i
> didn't say that i didn't have contempt for some ppl. but AFAICS i
> don't feel it. it's a cognitive evaluation for me.
>
> >Eveb though you don.t feel emotions you are very
> >adept at identifying it in others???
>
> no. i never said that. i think you may be projecting again. but
> maybe not.
Could be, I have been known to have a wide range of experiences.
>
> >>
> >> >Aquestion/ Have any
> >> >of you who claim such things at any time in your life did you hold back these
> >> >things called tears? and if you did why?.
> >>
> >> yes. i cried when it was my job as a sub. sometimes, to have some
> >> small amount of control, i stoopidly and stubbornly held back the
> >> tears bc i knew that my brother or other dom wanted them. and
> >> that it was one of the few things i could keep from them. at
> >> least i kept them from them until i got tired of whatever else
> >> they'd do to me if i didn't cry when they wanted. i wouldn't do
> >> that if i were in the situation now. i'd cry if i could. i'd find
> >> a way to get the drugs that allow me to do that.
> >>
> >
> >Okay, what I see here , is a very legitamate reason for you thinking the way you do.
> >What you are saying is that you can cry but only because , of a drug?
>
> yes.
>
> >So it's not you then , that would actually cry?
>
> no, i really cry or at least get tears in my eyes when i'm on
> mega doses of a drug that i took it for a few weeks. it's clearly
> me that's getting tears in hir eyes. i haven't seen the drug cry
> yet. and if i did, i think i'd quit taking it. ;-)
>
> >You are not responsible or the author of such feelings?
>
> it doesn't seem like i'm the author of the crying or feeling to
> me. just as Nancy talked about her crying on a particular drug.
> just as some ppl have successfully sued pharmaceutical companies
> for acts they committed and feelings they had when they were on
> certain drugs. the judges and juries agreed with them that it was
> the drug, not them. or at least it was much more the drug than
> "really" them.
>
Your example here assumes that what a judge and jury come up with is accurate. I am not
so sure.
>
> >Now if this a function of damage to the tissue that was
> >inflicted by another amd that is the cause, I understand that. I can see where a
> >feeling of frustration would arise if a response to certain things did not bring
> >about , what others determine are "proper ways to show your grief". I disagree with
> >that.
>
> thanks.
>
Your welcome.
>
> >>
> >> the following is not a direct response to your Q bc i wasn't
> >> holding back tears at the time but i think it's related. i
> >> sometimes enjoyed not crying when my mom would b*at the sh*t out
> >> of me for not crying. i thought it was funny bc it pissed her
> >> off. (she would have started be*ting me for some other reason -
> >> e.g., i'd "looked at her" in some bad way, according to her - but
> >> she wanted me to cry and beg. sometimes i wouldn't. just to be a
> >> brat, i guess.)
> >>
> >> i found the whole scenario amusing both at the time and later. it
> >> was esp funny and ironic bc her be*ting me on the head made it
> >> *less* likely that i'd have the feelings she seemed to want me to
> >> have bc i think that my lack of feelings is largely organic from
> >> the several hundred moderate - severe concussions i've had. so
> >> she was doing something to get me to have and show feelings that
> >> was making it very unlikely that i'd have them. i dunno why but
> >> her be*ting me in order to get me to cry - she'd flip out about
> >> it while she was b*ating me - amused me even though it meant that
> >> she'd be*t me more or maybe knock me out. hmmmm. maybe that's why
> >> i did it - i was hoping to be kn*cked out. ;-)
> >>
> >
> >What you say here is an excellent reason , one may have come to the conclusion you
> >have. I have a thought here, that is . You were not even a player , just in the
> >wrong place at the wrong time. Your mom and others were dealing with adult problems
> >, and you happen to be in the way.
>
> my mother was nuts. my brother was a s*dist. i don't think he was
> yet dealing with adult problems but that's probably mostly
> irrelevant to your point.
>
Correct I am speaking of adults and their problems , and one of them is not keeping
someone safe from their sibling.
> >You were nothing other than an object, to be handled in what ever way they wanted?
>
> with my brother and his "friends."
>
> >To think you were specialed out for anything
> >more is the thinking of a child.
>
> what do you mean? i was "specialed out" with my brother bc i was
> his only sub. well, most of the time. my mom got similarly nuts
> and violent with my brothers, although i was her favorite target.
> (my brothers agreed with that assessment.) i don't know what
> other "specialed out" you're referring to.
>
> it seems like you may be assuming lots of things about my
> childhood that you don't know and have no way of knowing.
> >>
> >> i think it's odd that some ppl, like my mom, my brother, and some
> >> of the ppl here, think it's that important to control ppl and how
> >> they react. i don't understand why my lack of feelings is so
> >> threatening to them. :-/ why does it bother ppl? i don't get
> >> it.
> >
> >I think you said it best, this gives you some amount of control.
>
> so it's threatening to ppl here if i have some amount of control?
> over me, not them?
Go up there and look at your own question.
>
> >>
> >> i probably could have cried when my mom was b*ating me if i tried
> >> hard enough. but i didn't cry as a kid bc i was sad. i cried bc
> >> it was my job and someone (my dom) wanted me to. it's a sub
> >> thing. if you know about d/s, think about how it would be in the
> >> context of a bunch of unsupervised, sociopathic teenagers and a
> >> toddler - grade school kid. IOW more extreme, cruel, and out of
> >> control than most of the stuff you read. i was a sub. i didn't
> >> have anything, including feelings, unless my dom gave them to me.
> >
> >You saw yourself only through the eyes of others!. What inconsistency. You are what
> >you are because of what they think at the time! You are more than that, but were
> >never given the opportunity to learn. Think of this in terms of your own child?
>
> <sigh> it sounds like you don't understand. i'm not surprised.
> it's a weird situation to explain or understand. a few ppl here
> have understood, though. unfortunately, usually bc they were in
> similar situations. :-P~~
I guess you have just made a pretty big judgement about me , haven't you ?
>
> >>
> >> >Never? okay, got it. Why is it that a
> >> >common theme I see amongst such, feelings or lack of . I see contempt.
> >>
> >> interesting. where do you see that? can you put some quotes in
> >> your reply? TIA
> >
> >Yes , I can, there are several,here are just a few of what I refer to. Your
> >contempt for t's is a common theme throughout your posts.
>
> sure but i thought you were talking about a contempt for
> feelings. that's not the same thing.
>
> btw, i assume by "contempt" you mean that i think they're doing
> something that's not helpful and that has a good chance of being
> harmful. that's what i mean.
>
> >number one RE: I don't sunsay 7:17 pm paragraph #3
> >number 2:RE: I don't 1230 pm paragraph #7
> >number # Re: I don't friday june 8th under spoiler
> > many more.
>
> sorry. i don't know what you mean. but i'm talking about contempt
> for feelings in general.
>
> >> >As if doing it is a weakness,
> >>
> >> i never said or suggested that. maybe you think that or used to
> >> think that and so assume that J/c and i do, too. i don't and i
> >> don't think J/c does, either.
> >>
> >
> >Again I am only speaking to you. No one else
>
> ok. then i never said or suggested that. if you think i did,
> please provide some quotes bc i don't know what you mean. TIA.
> >>
> >> >as well as not doing it , is seen by some as a weakness.
> >>
> >> yes. but not by me.
> >>
> >> >I think neither.
> >>
> >> i agree.
> >>
> >> >Interesting again how all this talk about yes or no, prevents us from focusing
> >> >on whatever the real problem might be.
> >>
> >> what do you think "the real problem" is? are you defining that
> >> for others or just yourself? and how is anyone preventing ppl
> >> from focusing on whatever they want to focus on? can you give
> >> examples or are you just making blind accusations? (which
> >> accusations - blind or not - are never appropriate here IMO.)
Thankyou for this information, does that include vague accusations or not?
>
> >>
> >
> >Again I will ask what are blind accusations?
>
> that by talking about this "prevents us from focusing on whatever
> the real problem might be." IOW, talking about my opinion that
> ppl here with depersonalization or without feelings are given
> less respect than ppl with multiplicity somehow prevents ppl from
> talking about what they should be talking about. IOW, let's not
> talk about this bc that's harmful and, thus, wrong. IOW you're
> bad for doing it. without defining what the "real problem" is or
> presenting any evidence that anyone is preventing ppl from
> talking about whatever they want to discuss. to me, it's just
> saying (implicitly) that ppl who talk about this are bad. i don't
> think that's helpful. i think that's esp inappropriate in a
> support group.
I see what you you think you mean, IT seems like the definition of less respect is even
talking about it or commenting on it , or having feelings that differ from it.
>
> >
> >>
> >> as J/c pointed out, first you agree with Sierra, then say that
> >> the ppl who disagree with you are "preventing [ppl] from focusing
> >> on . . . the real problem." IOW if we talk, we're avoiding "the
> >> real problem" and, by implication, are again bad. it doesn't seem
> >> that there's any way to win (or be OK in your book) except for us
> >> to completely agree with you. :-/
> >>
> >
> >You are labeling yourself Good. or bad not me !
>
> i think it was implicit in what you said. so did other ppl here.
Who are all these other people? Are you speaking for others right now , and how did you
come to that conclusion? When you say here, I am thinking you mean the people at this ng.
Who are you speaking for ? I am uncertain?
>
>
> >I'll just say it is a technique
> >used by some to prevent them seeing just what may be helpful to them . I am not
> >accusing you , of this , any longer .
>
> sorry if i misunderstood. that's how it read to me. and to J/c.
> and some other ppl.
>
Who are some other people?
>
> >I just wanted us to take a look at what is
> >consuming us in discussion and is it relevant. Of course it is surely not up to me
> >, to decide , (what is relevant).
>
> good. thanks for explaining.
>
> >It is obvious that it is not relevant to me. I am unsure of what you refer to as
> >winning? I am only talking about , the reality of some who say I have no feelings!
>
> i didn't say that. i don't think anyone here did. how would we
> know? all we see is words that you write. if you say that you
> have feelings, i believe you. how would i know if you do or you
> don't?
> I guess the same to ya!
This was a rhetorical question, I have not felt that anyone was saying I had no feelinds
I was speaking to those who say they have none.
>
> i don't make the mistake of some of my Ts who assume that just bc
> ppl want to hurt others, they must be angry. i keep telling them
> "obviously, you don't know many sociopaths." ;-)
This a dangerous assumpyion held by many feeling folks. I have been around many
sociopaths, and the results of their actions.I would never take it personnaly if they
tried to kill or injure me. In these cases you are what I think as opportunistic for
them. I think it is what I was reffering to in my Not being special.
>
>
> when i was little, i used to be able to cry at will bc that's
> what i learned to do. it didn't have anything to do with how i
> was feeling, it had to do with whether it was the expected
> response. it wasn't a sign of sadness. i never understood it that
> way. but then, i was raised by sociopaths (in large part) so
> that's not surprising that i don't connect things like that with
> feelings. now they seem to be connected to feelings in most ppl
> but not in all.
>
> >> that's what i was complaining about in the first place.
> >>
> >Anyone who complains that people just don't understand people who have no feelings
> >, are having feelings ? No ?
>
> sometimes. to say that it's true in all cases is a mistake IMO.
> it can be a cognitive evaluation, not an affective one. or it may
> be some other type of evaluation.
>
Okay, I hear you.
>
> i think the implicitly put downs are wearing. if "wearing" is a
> feeling, then i have that feeling. i also don't like hypocrisy or
> cruelty or unfairness. if not liking those things is a feeling, i
> have feelings. but that doesn't mean i feel sadness. make sense?
I think it is wearing also. and yes in my simple estimation to process these things does
imply some feelings .
>
> to think that you (or anyone) can determine that from what i
> write better than friends who've known me very well for years and
> who i trust, makes no sense to me. if you (or anyone) can do
> that, i think you (or sie) should go into business and make
> millions. no joke bc i don't know anyone who can do that and i
> think it would be very helpful to ppl to just be able to write
> someone who didn't know them at all and have that person know
> what's going on with them right away like that. way better than
> ppl who've know them very well for most of their lives. it would
> save a lot of time and energy. it seems like it would be a good
> situation for you and them.
Who are them? I am uncertain.
>
I see this as a way of making fun of . and not respecting someone who does think
differentlly than yourself. I see it also as a dismissal from you, and the others you
seem to speak for.
Now this in no way is what I ever desired when beginning to write to this goup. It is my
mistake .
I have never felt that you and all of your thoughts and opinions were not welcome .
>
> e
Tess Valerian
getting on my nerves, becoming downright triggery. if e says she doesn't
have any feelings, then for god's sake she doesn't have any. i've *never*
seen anyone's reality questioned the ways hers is being questioned now. i
don't care what anyone reads into her posts or her rl demeanor. it's
dismissive, disrespectful, patronizing, and just plain ill-mannered to
insist that her knowledge of herself must be wrong because it doesn't fit
somebody else's subjective interpretation of her words or behavior.
jeez.
tv
Ross Tyler
this conversation. e is one I am thinking in particular. Okay, if she says she
doesn't then she doesn't. I have not ever been so described as dismissive ,
patronizing, disrerespectful andplainly ill mannered . I guess mayby it was
about time.
thankyou' Ecc
Tess Valerian
> tv,
>
> e posted about how others in rl view her. I took that to mean that
> observations of others in rl was acceptable to talk about since she
herself
> included it.
that's not the point. read my words again. i didn't say anywhere that
talking about rl observations isn't acceptable. i objected to your *reading
into* her behavior something that she says she doesn't feel and isn't there
and, on that basis, apparently trying to convince her that she really does
feel it and it really is there.
nearly everyone else on this group has their words taken at face value. if
someone says they're angry, we believe them. if they say they're numb, we
believe them. i don't understand why it's so hard to believe e.
tv
> I'm sorry if this has been triggering.
>
> Sierra of TN
>
> > this whole conversation, arguing about whether e has feelings or not, is
> > getting on my nerves, becoming downright triggery. if e says she doesn't
> > have any feelings, then for g*d's sake she doesn't have any. I've
*never*
> > seen anyone's reality questioned the ways hers is being questioned now.
I
> > don't care what anyone reads into her posts or her rl demeanor. it's
> > dismissive, disrespectful, patronizing, and just plain ill-mannered to
> > insist that her knowledge of herself must be wrong because it doesn't
fit
> > somebody else's subjective interpretation of her words or behavior.
> >
> > jeez.
> >
> > tv
>
>
>
>
>
>
Nancewt
I think you were very articulate and concise and brave and perceptive.
-Nancy
Cliff
Nice to see you back! :o)
Seein' as how all these posts seem to be addressed to me
>giggle< suppose it don't matter where we jump into the conversation...
>g<
FWIW I can accept the fact that feelings are one of the many things that
make humans human.. and if one does not do feelings, sie is not enjoying
the full human experience...
As you say though, this does not make sie any less human, ,
Since we all seem to be talking a lot about how e experiences things (sorry
e... I feel I must contribute)
I have never heard e ever say that her emotions/feelings were not
*disordered*.... nor does she say that sie does not want to enjoy all of the
human experiences...
On the contrary I think that sie has tried for a very long time to overcome
this dysfunction... (Note all of the attempted therp)..
I hear a lot of frustration with Ts and therp from hir
Because they *can't* help hir...
e has stated time, time and again that her ab*ser put her into double
binds(not uncommon for those who have been ab*sed ) FWIW most therp is
fashioned to help ppl get through their double binds...
But hir ab*ser double binded hir double binds.. heck may have even
triple/quadruple double binded any possible direction sie could go...
Though e's binds differ from the ones we ran into,
any direction we went in therp, we came upon a double bind... looking beyond
the double bind all we could see was another..... and intellegentising the
possible outcomes of getting beyond the next double bind really was a head
scratcher......
*Huh.. Why would we want to do that?*
T's are not prepared with solutions/suggestions beyond our 1st or maybe
second double bind.. and it is frustrating!!
FWEW (from where e writes) >grin< to me she is saying "ok so I can't be
helped, this ain't so bad anyway, lets talk about it, lets find ways to
live better within *this* experience."
(sorta like asking for support) :o)
our half-pennies worth
J/c
Sorrys about, talking about you... e :o)
"Nancewt" <nan...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010616130314...@ng-df1.aol.com...
Kaliope
!
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Delane
Tess Valerian" <tessva...@home.com> wrote in message
news:7jSW6.22431$w5.29...@news1.rdc1.ga.home.com...
trill
in-patient/out-patient?), e, and everyone else in this thread.
I'm just chiming in to bravo and applaud J/c's post.
I think you make excellent points in a well stated post, J/c, even
though it is sort of done at e's expence ;>
I hope this is all okay with you, e.
;}
As for what makes anyone human, I thought that was opposable thumbs. Of
course, that could make one a racoon, too. Then, at this time, I am
actually losing my opposable thumbs in the labyrinth, miasma, and mire of
the mangled care system. So, since I do seem to have a lot of feelings,
often to an extent that I rate "too much," perhaps I'll need to rely on them
to be human.
On second thought, I'm not sure I want to be human. And that, I think,
is strictly about the feelings.
Oh, shut up, trill.
oops.
over and out,
trill
Cliff <cli...@escape.ca> wrote in message
news:GygX6.13186$gg2.1...@news1.mts.net...
trill
missed something hugely important. I cannot figure out why anything that e
asserts about herself is subject for debate.
It seems that such a debate has permeated a few different threads
now.
kinda confused
trill
Ross Tyler <rty...@olympus.net> wrote in message
news:3B2BD979...@olympus.net...
Beauty
- I think there might have been a series of them nationwide at a certain
point. Also, there have been annual marches for over 20 years, I think,
called "T*ke B*ck the N*ght" where women march, singing and chanting about
taking back the power to be safe in the streets at night - the need for that
- and part of that is a rally at the end where women have opportunities to
speak from a stage to tell their stories. Neither of these events have
specifically targeted the link between substance use and dissociation, but
they could easily include stories or art about that - or could have
components built in to highlight that as an issue.
Beauty.
Mourning Dove wrote:
> Hi, mischa's chaos,
>
> It's nice to see you posting again.....see below.
>
> "mischa bach" <misch...@gmx.de>
> > hi
> >
> > okay, okay, after the usses being basically silent readers & lurkers
> > for
> > weeks or maybe months, this subject might sound odd. Or misleading.
> > 'cuz
> > while we are in general indeed trying to reach out more, to be more
> > open
> > again and paricipate more regluarly here once more, this isn't why
> > we
> > write
> > this post.
> >
> > but how to say what we wanna say without creating another of our
> > (in)famous
> > novel-length weird postings? *thinking*
> >
> > a while ago, we became part of a nation-wide network over here in
> > Germany
> > called JES (meaning junkies - ex-junkies - folks on substitutional
> > meds
> > and, yeah, this acronym is kinda direct reply to Nancy Reagan's
> > "Just
> > say
> > No!" *grin*). and in the area/state where we leave, JES now gets a
> > new
> > legal
> > structure and, more important, JES now gets state-funding for
> > selfhelp-activities (amazing but true). well, talking to other folks
> > who
> > are
> > with JES, we started to wonder how it comes many, many female
> > junkies
> > (stats
> > say 70-90% or even more) have a background of childhood abuse but a)
> > never
> > talk about it and b) this never became an issue, neither in official
> > rehab
> > nor when it comes to self-help. so now we are looking for ways to
> > change
> > that. to make breaking the silence and coming together both as part
> > of
> > that
> > network as well as abuse survivors easier.
> >
> > so we thought, if folks shy away from anything which obviously
> > smells
> > like it
> > might be about the issue of s*xual abuse and/or even include
> > "outing"
> > oneself, we need something like a bait. something in the line of
> > that
> > wendo-weekend we just came back home from on monday (dunno if you
> > know
> > wendo
> > - it is about selfdefense and selfempowerment of women and women
> > only).
> > a big
> > part of that two days workshop ended up talking - people opening up
> > -
> > people
> > sharing what happened to them - people sharing how being a survivor
> > still
> > deeply influences their lives till today. so now we plan to organize
> > a
> > wendo-workshop for women who are with JES.
> >
> > but we think there must be more, there must be other settings,
> > situations,
> > workshops, subjects which help people to break the silence. and
> > that's
> > why we
> > now write this post - to ask for your ideas, for your help. speaking
> > from
> > your expereince - what surroundings helped you to open up? e.g. we
> > were
> > surprised how showing our first tv-movie (which deals with the
> > issues of
> >
> > s*xual abuse & r*pe) in Ireland back in 1993 led to complete
> > strangers
> > often
> > for the very first time ever sharing what had happened to them. and
> > we
> > are
> > looking for other "opportunities" like this. so ... do you have any
> > ideas
> > here?
> > we'd greatly appreciate your help.
> > we think it is important to find more ways to break the silence and
> > to
> > help
> > others break the silence.
> >
> > mischa's chaos
> >
>
> An event took place in this city several years ago that really had a lot
> of people talking. Of course I can't remember who sponsored the event,
> but it received a lot of media attention. It was an art display, with
> artwork by survivors of s*xual abuse. It took place at a local mall, and
> lasted several days. The canvas for each work was a cloth handkerchief,
> to represent all of the tears (shed, or unshed) of those who have
> experienced such 'buse. Visitors who wished to participate were given
> handkerchiefs on which to do their own artwork, which would become part
> of the exhibit. There were also counselors there, as well as many
> resources, information packets, etc. It really raised awareness, and
> touched a lot of people. I read about it in the paper and saw it on the
> news.
>
> Now, I just have to add my personal story. I read about this exhibit a
> few days before it opened, and saw a couple sample handkerchiefs in the
> newspaper. My heart leapt within me. I had been expressing myself
> through art for awhile, and was very excited about using this as a way to
> be heard, and to meet others like myself. But, at the time, I was quite
> depressed, and did not feel strong enough to go alone. I told my SO- he
> wasn't interested. I told my best friend, who seemed somewhat
> interested. I suggested a time for us to go, and she said she was busy.
> A couple days later, she told me that she had happened to be in the mall
> the day before and that she had seen the exhibit. I was devastated. I
> couldn't believe she had gone without me. She said she thought it was a
> good thing I did not go, because the artwork would have been too
> triggering for me. (She hadn't seen any of my own.) I grew even more
> depressed after that....what a missed opportunity. I had wanted to go to
> that more than anything. If only I had had the courage to go alone.
>
> So, there you have it. Some information in response to your post, and a
> little rant to go along with it. I just couldn't seem to tell the former
> without the latter.
>
> mdove
>
Beauty
that women had space to hang cloths (small banners or whatever) which were art
of some kind.
Beauty.
e wrote:
> Mourning Dove wrote:
> >Hi, mischa's chaos,
>
> hi, mischa's chaos,
>
> it's good to see you posting again. :-) i like reading your
> posts. i'm impressed with your TV show and how much it helped.
> congratulations and thanks. :-)
> >
> snip
> >
> >An event took place in this city several years ago that really had a lot
> >of people talking. Of course I can't remember who sponsored the event,
> >but it received a lot of media attention. It was an art display, with
> >artwork by survivors of s*xual abuse. It took place at a local mall, and
> >lasted several days. The canvas for each work was a cloth handkerchief,
> >to represent all of the tears (shed, or unshed) of those who have
> >experienced such 'buse.
>
> sorry to make the following irrelevant (to the main point) and
> negative comment, Mourning Dove, but this is just the kind of
> thing that perpetuates negative and harmful stereotypes of ppl
> who don't have emotions. we don't have tears, shed or unshed. but
> doing something like this makes it sound like we must. so ppl,
> including Ts, push for that and assume that we're hiding our
> tears. and that doing so will help us. it's too bad that an
> otherwise very positive thing perpetuates myths that are harmful
> to some survivors.
>
> in order for someone like J/c or me to participate, we have to
> reinforce beliefs that harm us (i.e., that we have unshed tears
> and that if we haven't shed them it's bc we're afraid or
> unwilling or covering them up or pushing them down or something).
> so either our voices are unheard or our own voices get used
> against us. it's frustrating.
>
> sorry to go off on this rant. it sounds like a generally good
> exhibit. i'm sorry that you didn't get to see it, Dove. but maybe
> you can feel a bit better bc you didn't unknowingly oppress ppl
> like J/c and me by contributing to it.
>
> i am sorry that you didn't get to go. :-( that bites.
>
> e
>
Beauty
other cultures involving tears and/or the shedding of bl**d -
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This whole talk about art and tears and stuff reminds me of an exhibition of
Samizdat art from USSR which was, paradoxically, exhibited in the Chappaqua
(Westchester County, kilts and penny loafer rich) Library. The Samizdat
movement was a radical political movement - Samizdat meaning, I think,
self-published. Anyhow, a lot of the art was interactive in some ways, and
some was very, very personal. There was one piece which was inside an
envelope, and when you opened the envelope there was a piece of blue ribbon
inside, and it was marked with seminal fluid. I don't remember how we knew
that's what it was. The point, as I took it to be, was something about
repression in general and reaction against it. If you want to get into a
whole anthropological rap about things, all bodily fluids are "liminal" -
midway between being self and non-self - and thus "taboo" - potentially very
powerful, either in a positive or negative way. So no wonder this thing we
are talking about - tears - is such a highly charged subject. And where e
says that it's a cultural thing, that's exactly right - what people do about
tears and crying is highly culturally determined. There's a spiritual thing
among traditional Plains Indian cultures about "crying" for a vision - when
a boy (and sometimes for girls, too) reaches about 13, they go out into the
wild for a period and fast and literally weep for a vision, on the
presumption that the g*ds will look upon them w/pity and send a
vision/guardian, etc. Also, recall things like the Sun Dance where the
shedding of bl**d as a sacrifice leads to power. And c*rcumcision,
sc*rification, etc., etc., etc. These are all things about bodily fluids
that are all deeply significant. So to speak w/presumption about tears is,
if nothing else, simply naive.
Beauty.
Beauty
all being written because I don't remember - I think I was on a sleeping jag. I have
lots to say, and I hope it isn't just digging up a bunch of stuff that other people want
shoved back under, but one thing occurs to me as I read this - you, e, saying about being
able to cry at will - and then remembering that Mischa's Chaos said that when she was
talking about addicts about dissociation, it was the actors that "got" it - that clicked
for me all of a sudden. I mean, there are different ways to "do" emotion, then, aren't
there? I mean, you can "do" a "simulacrum" of emotion at will - and how authentic or
convincing that is, either for the actor or for the sub, is highly important - and does
that have to do w/what kind of internal state the actor or sub has to or is able to
invoke or access inside in order to produce the affect/effect on the outside? Most
presumably so - I mean, they have acting schools to learn to get at that kind of stuff,
right? And those are presumably (??? one wonders???) for people who "have" feelings in
everyday life? Very interesting thoughts to me.
Beauty.
e wrote:
> Ross Tyler wrote:
>
> >Hi! See below
>
> hi. :-)
>
> >e wrote:
> >> Ross Tyler wrote:
> >> snip
> >>
> >> >i support you Sierra of TN. There is much to say regarding the human
> >> >experience. one is knowing that you are making sense to me at least . Such a
> >> >lot of words and work to keep one from feeling vulnerable.
> >>
> >> did i suggest i wasn't vulnerable? just yesterday or the day
> >> before, i said i was. i'm very vulnerable. i don't equate crying
> >> with vulnerability.
> >>
> >
> >Just because someone says they are vulnerable does not make it true.
>
> so are you suggesting that i'm not vulnerable?
>
> >It just makes
> >little sense to say you have no emotions and then to say. I am vulnerable.
>
> why? i am vulnerable to being cold, being tired, having no
> energy. i am vulnerable to many things. do you think that
> emotional vulnerability is the only kind of vulnerability? i
> don't understand what you're saying here.
>
> >What is vulnerability? It is one of the things that may happen to humans, because
> >they do have feelings. otherwise what would it matter.?
>
> bc there are many kinds of vulnerability.
>
> >You say , I have no emotions, it doesn't make sense.
>
> why not?
>
> >Now If you say, I don't
> >express my sadness through tears. I understand that. You frequently show different
> >degress of emotions . from anger , to kindness and disbelif. in these posts.
> >What are these? Are these not emotions.?
>
> how can you know if i'm feeling emotions? ppl who know me
> personally say that i don't show emotions and i say the same
> things to them that i do here. i'm trying to understand things. i
> like fairness and kindness and many things. but i don't think
> that means i have emotions. i think it's odd that you would think
> that you could determine that better than ppl who know me very
> well. i think it's odd that you would even think that it was
> possible for you to do so.
>
> i'm not saying that you can't but it seems very odd and grandiose
> to me.
>
> i think that perhaps you're getting confused bc you're reading
> *your* emotions into what i say. it's called projection. maybe
> you could read about it and figure out if you're doing it.
>
> i think maybe if you said something like that it would be bc you
> felt a certain way. but that's the logical fallacy of "when i
> feel X, i say A. you've said, A. therefore, you feel X." that's
> illogical. and it's often wrong.
> >>
> >> do you? if so, why? do you think you're more vulnerable if you
> >> cry or less vulnerable if you don't? if so, in what way?
> >
> >Not at all, though others may. I do think, to show anyone that I am having certain
> >feelings , such as sadness, regardless of the way I show it.let's them know
> >something about me. I may not want to show them that.
>
> i can understand that. i show my close friends things that i
> wouldn't show other ppl.
> >>
> >> i don't think crying makes ppl vulnerable. maybe that is a big
> >> difference in the way you and i look at things. maybe that is why
> >> you're reading denial and contempt into what J/c and i are saying
> >> when AFAICS there's no contempt or denial there. the only
> >> contempt i see is by some ppl (not most of the ppl with feelings
> >> who've been posting about this) who have feelings toward ppl who
> >> don't.
> >> I would not include j/c in this observation or conversastion.
> >
> >If you have no feelings than I agree that contempt or denial would be impossible
> >for you to do. or understand.
>
> why would it be impossible for me to understand something that i
> don't experience? maybe i don't understand it as completely as
> someone else but i think i can understand some of it. e.g., i
> think i can understand something about what it's like to be a
> male bc i've known many. some of my best friends are men. (no,
> for real. ;)
>
> and, as Beauty and i were saying, i don't think anyone can really
> understand what another person is feeling. bc i think that your
> experience of sadness is different than anyone else's. so,
> according to your logic, no one can ever talk about sadness or
> contempt.
>
> btw, i never said that i'd never used denial. i have. and i
> didn't say that i didn't have contempt for some ppl. but AFAICS i
> don't feel it. it's a cognitive evaluation for me.
>
> >Eveb though you don.t feel emotions you are very
> >adept at identifying it in others???
>
> no. i never said that. i think you may be projecting again. but
> maybe not.
> >>
> >> >Aquestion/ Have any
> >> >of you who claim such things at any time in your life did you hold back these
> >> >things called tears? and if you did why?.
> >>
> >> yes. i cried when it was my job as a sub. sometimes, to have some
> >> small amount of control, i stoopidly and stubbornly held back the
> >> tears bc i knew that my brother or other dom wanted them. and
> >> that it was one of the few things i could keep from them. at
> >> least i kept them from them until i got tired of whatever else
> >> they'd do to me if i didn't cry when they wanted. i wouldn't do
> >> that if i were in the situation now. i'd cry if i could. i'd find
> >> a way to get the drugs that allow me to do that.
> >>
> >
> >Okay, what I see here , is a very legitamate reason for you thinking the way you do.
> >What you are saying is that you can cry but only because , of a drug?
>
> yes.
>
> >So it's not you then , that would actually cry?
>
> no, i really cry or at least get tears in my eyes when i'm on
> mega doses of a drug that i took it for a few weeks. it's clearly
> me that's getting tears in hir eyes. i haven't seen the drug cry
> yet. and if i did, i think i'd quit taking it. ;-)
>
> >You are not responsible or the author of such feelings?
>
> it doesn't seem like i'm the author of the crying or feeling to
> me. just as Nancy talked about her crying on a particular drug.
> just as some ppl have successfully sued pharmaceutical companies
> for acts they committed and feelings they had when they were on
> certain drugs. the judges and juries agreed with them that it was
> the drug, not them. or at least it was much more the drug than
> "really" them.
>
> >Now if this a function of damage to the tissue that was
> >inflicted by another amd that is the cause, I understand that. I can see where a
> >feeling of frustration would arise if a response to certain things did not bring
> >about , what others determine are "proper ways to show your grief". I disagree with
> >that.
>
> thanks.
>
> >>
> >> the following is not a direct response to your Q bc i wasn't
> >> holding back tears at the time but i think it's related. i
> >> sometimes enjoyed not crying when my mom would b*at the sh*t out
> >> of me for not crying. i thought it was funny bc it pissed her
> >> off. (she would have started be*ting me for some other reason -
> >> e.g., i'd "looked at her" in some bad way, according to her - but
> >> she wanted me to cry and beg. sometimes i wouldn't. just to be a
> >> brat, i guess.)
> >>
> >> i found the whole scenario amusing both at the time and later. it
> >> was esp funny and ironic bc her be*ting me on the head made it
> >> *less* likely that i'd have the feelings she seemed to want me to
> >> have bc i think that my lack of feelings is largely organic from
> >> the several hundred moderate - severe concussions i've had. so
> >> she was doing something to get me to have and show feelings that
> >> was making it very unlikely that i'd have them. i dunno why but
> >> her be*ting me in order to get me to cry - she'd flip out about
> >> it while she was b*ating me - amused me even though it meant that
> >> she'd be*t me more or maybe knock me out. hmmmm. maybe that's why
> >> i did it - i was hoping to be kn*cked out. ;-)
> >>
> >
> >What you say here is an excellent reason , one may have come to the conclusion you
> >have. I have a thought here, that is . You were not even a player , just in the
> >wrong place at the wrong time. Your mom and others were dealing with adult problems
> >, and you happen to be in the way.
>
> my mother was nuts. my brother was a s*dist. i don't think he was
> yet dealing with adult problems but that's probably mostly
> irrelevant to your point.
>
> >You were nothing other than an object, to be handled in what ever way they wanted?
>
> with my brother and his "friends."
>
> >To think you were specialed out for anything
> >more is the thinking of a child.
>
> what do you mean? i was "specialed out" with my brother bc i was
> his only sub. well, most of the time. my mom got similarly nuts
> and violent with my brothers, although i was her favorite target.
> (my brothers agreed with that assessment.) i don't know what
> other "specialed out" you're referring to.
>
> it seems like you may be assuming lots of things about my
> childhood that you don't know and have no way of knowing.
> >>
> >> i think it's odd that some ppl, like my mom, my brother, and some
> >> of the ppl here, think it's that important to control ppl and how
> >> they react. i don't understand why my lack of feelings is so
> >> threatening to them. :-/ why does it bother ppl? i don't get
> >> it.
> >
> >I think you said it best, this gives you some amount of control.
>
> so it's threatening to ppl here if i have some amount of control?
> over me, not them?
> >>
> >> i probably could have cried when my mom was b*ating me if i tried
> >> hard enough. but i didn't cry as a kid bc i was sad. i cried bc
> >> it was my job and someone (my dom) wanted me to. it's a sub
> >> thing. if you know about d/s, think about how it would be in the
> >> context of a bunch of unsupervised, sociopathic teenagers and a
> >> toddler - grade school kid. IOW more extreme, cruel, and out of
> >> control than most of the stuff you read. i was a sub. i didn't
> >> have anything, including feelings, unless my dom gave them to me.
> >
> >You saw yourself only through the eyes of others!. What inconsistency. You are what
> >you are because of what they think at the time! You are more than that, but were
> >never given the opportunity to learn. Think of this in terms of your own child?
>
> <sigh> it sounds like you don't understand. i'm not surprised.
> it's a weird situation to explain or understand. a few ppl here
> have understood, though. unfortunately, usually bc they were in
> similar situations. :-P~~
> >>
> >> >Never? okay, got it. Why is it that a
> >> >common theme I see amongst such, feelings or lack of . I see contempt.
> >>
> >> interesting. where do you see that? can you put some quotes in
> >> your reply? TIA
> >
> >Yes , I can, there are several,here are just a few of what I refer to. Your
> >contempt for t's is a common theme throughout your posts.
>
> sure but i thought you were talking about a contempt for
> feelings. that's not the same thing.
>
> btw, i assume by "contempt" you mean that i think they're doing
> something that's not helpful and that has a good chance of being
> harmful. that's what i mean.
>
> >number one RE: I don't sunsay 7:17 pm paragraph #3
> >number 2:RE: I don't 1230 pm paragraph #7
> >number # Re: I don't friday june 8th under spoiler
> > many more.
>
> sorry. i don't know what you mean. but i'm talking about contempt
> for feelings in general.
>
> >> >As if doing it is a weakness,
> >>
> >> i never said or suggested that. maybe you think that or used to
> >> think that and so assume that J/c and i do, too. i don't and i
> >> don't think J/c does, either.
> >>
> >
> >Again I am only speaking to you. No one else
>
> ok. then i never said or suggested that. if you think i did,
> please provide some quotes bc i don't know what you mean. TIA.
> >>
> >> >as well as not doing it , is seen by some as a weakness.
> >>
> >> yes. but not by me.
> >>
> >> >I think neither.
> >>
> >> i agree.
> >>
> >> >Interesting again how all this talk about yes or no, prevents us from focusing
> >> >on whatever the real problem might be.
> >>
> >> what do you think "the real problem" is? are you defining that
> >> for others or just yourself? and how is anyone preventing ppl
> >> from focusing on whatever they want to focus on? can you give
> >> examples or are you just making blind accusations? (which
> >> accusations - blind or not - are never appropriate here IMO.)
> >>
> >
> >Again I will ask what are blind accusations?
>
> that by talking about this "prevents us from focusing on whatever
> the real problem might be." IOW, talking about my opinion that
> ppl here with depersonalization or without feelings are given
> less respect than ppl with multiplicity somehow prevents ppl from
> talking about what they should be talking about. IOW, let's not
> talk about this bc that's harmful and, thus, wrong. IOW you're
> bad for doing it. without defining what the "real problem" is or
> presenting any evidence that anyone is preventing ppl from
> talking about whatever they want to discuss. to me, it's just
> saying (implicitly) that ppl who talk about this are bad. i don't
> think that's helpful. i think that's esp inappropriate in a
> support group.
> >
> >>
> >> as J/c pointed out, first you agree with Sierra, then say that
> >> the ppl who disagree with you are "preventing [ppl] from focusing
> >> on . . . the real problem." IOW if we talk, we're avoiding "the
> >> real problem" and, by implication, are again bad. it doesn't seem
> >> that there's any way to win (or be OK in your book) except for us
> >> to completely agree with you. :-/
> >>
> >
> >You are labeling yourself Good. or bad not me !
>
> i think it was implicit in what you said. so did other ppl here.
>
> >I'll just say it is a technique
> >used by some to prevent them seeing just what may be helpful to them . I am not
> >accusing you , of this , any longer .
>
> sorry if i misunderstood. that's how it read to me. and to J/c.
> and some other ppl.
>
> >I just wanted us to take a look at what is
> >consuming us in discussion and is it relevant. Of course it is surely not up to me
> >, to decide , (what is relevant).
>
> good. thanks for explaining.
>
> >It is obvious that it is not relevant to me. I am unsure of what you refer to as
> >winning? I am only talking about , the reality of some who say I have no feelings!
>
> i didn't say that. i don't think anyone here did. how would we
> know? all we see is words that you write. if you say that you
> have feelings, i believe you. how would i know if you do or you
> don't?
>
> i don't make the mistake of some of my Ts who assume that just bc
> ppl want to hurt others, they must be angry. i keep telling them
> "obviously, you don't know many sociopaths." ;-)
>
> when i was little, i used to be able to cry at will bc that's
> what i learned to do. it didn't have anything to do with how i
> was feeling, it had to do with whether it was the expected
> response. it wasn't a sign of sadness. i never understood it that
> way. but then, i was raised by sociopaths (in large part) so
> that's not surprising that i don't connect things like that with
> feelings. now they seem to be connected to feelings in most ppl
> but not in all.
>
> >> that's what i was complaining about in the first place.
> >>
> >Anyone who complains that people just don't understand people who have no feelings
> >, are having feelings ? No ?
>
> sometimes. to say that it's true in all cases is a mistake IMO.
> it can be a cognitive evaluation, not an affective one. or it may
> be some other type of evaluation.
>
> i think the implicitly put downs are wearing. if "wearing" is a
> feeling, then i have that feeling. i also don't like hypocrisy or
> cruelty or unfairness. if not liking those things is a feeling, i
> have feelings. but that doesn't mean i feel sadness. make sense?
>
> to think that you (or anyone) can determine that from what i
> write better than friends who've known me very well for years and
> who i trust, makes no sense to me. if you (or anyone) can do
> that, i think you (or sie) should go into business and make
> millions. no joke bc i don't know anyone who can do that and i
> think it would be very helpful to ppl to just be able to write
> someone who didn't know them at all and have that person know
> what's going on with them right away like that. way better than
> ppl who've know them very well for most of their lives. it would
> save a lot of time and energy. it seems like it would be a good
> situation for you and them.
>
> e
Beauty
about. They were called, I don't know, statements or emblems or banners or
something. Things. Stuff. But this occurred on a pretty rad-o campus of a school
w/fine arts conservatories as well as letters and science students - so no one was
particularly intimidated by anything. At least in that era.
Beauty.
e wrote:
> Mourning Dove wrote:
> >e<anon...@anon.twwells.com> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> >> >An event took place in this city several years ago that really had a lot
> >> >of people talking. Of course I can't remember who sponsored the event,
> >> >but it received a lot of media attention. It was an art display, with
> >> >artwork by survivors of s*xual abuse. It took place at a local mall, and
> >> >lasted several days. The canvas for each work was a cloth handkerchief,
> >> >to represent all of the tears (shed, or unshed) of those who have
> >> >experienced such 'buse.
> >>
> >> sorry to make the following irrelevant (to the main point) and
> >> negative comment, Mourning Dove, but this is just the kind of
> >> thing that perpetuates negative and harmful stereotypes of ppl
> >> who don't have emotions. we don't have tears, shed or unshed. but
> >> doing something like this makes it sound like we must. so ppl,
> >> including Ts, push for that and assume that we're hiding our
> >> tears. and that doing so will help us. it's too bad that an
> >> otherwise very positive thing perpetuates myths that are harmful
> >> to some survivors.
> >
> >It would be ideal if such an event could provide for the needs of all survivors.
> >Do you think such an event could occur? It certainly would be quite an
> >undertaking.
>
> i wasn't suggesting that it help everyone, although that would be
> ideal. i was saying it would be good if it didn't harm some ppl.
>
> > There are many people who were helped by this event,
> >and who were heard for the first time in their lives.
>
> that's why i said that the event was generally positive. :-)
> and that it was too bad that you didn't get to go. :-(
>
> >How do you think those in charge could have created a more balanced event?
> >(I am not trying to be rude here, I really would like to know what they could
> >have done to be more sensitive to the experiences of all.)
>
> you don't seem rude to me.
>
> >Would eliminating
> >the handkerchief/tears idea have been enough? Perhaps an
> >exhibit of survivor art of any type?
>
> i think even the handkerchiefs would be marginally ok as long as
> they were presented as fabric squares and the tears requirement
> was dropped.
>
> Beauty and perhaps others here could probably address the
> question of whether it should be open to any types of art. i'm
> wondering if even calling it art instead of, e.g., expressions by
> ppl who've been r*ped, might be somewhat intimidating to some
> ppl. i dunno. i think they'd need to have some limitations to
> make it workable. e.g., size, perhaps media.
>
> this is a completely different and additional idea, mischa's
> chaos, but i'm wondering if something as simple as having
> survivors put their name or other symbol, perhaps an anonymous
> one, on a wall like the Vietnam Memorial in the US might be
> relatively easy to put together. i also think journals like alt
> are good. i also like artwork like mdove suggested.
> >>
> >> in order for someone like J/c or me to participate, we have to
> >> reinforce beliefs that harm us (i.e., that we have unshed tears
> >> and that if we haven't shed them it's bc we're afraid or
> >> unwilling or covering them up or pushing them down or something).
> >> so either our voices are unheard or our own voices get used
> >> against us. it's frustrating.
> >
> >I'm sure it is. Personally, I do have unshed tears, and do push them back
> >if they threaten to emerge. It is frustrating as well.
>
> it sounds frustrating. i hope that you'll be able to cry them
> someday and that doing so will be healing for you, mdove.
>
> >I wish I could either be like you guys, or be like those who can cry
> >when they need to. I'm just stuck somewhere between, I guess.
>
> that sounds frustrating. to be stuck in limbo, wanting to cry yet
> not being able to. :-(
>
> >Perhaps an event like this art exhibit would have been good for
> >someone like me.
>
> yes. :-)
>
> >I am sorry that this event could not be beneficial to all people,
>
> my objection was that it would harm some ppl, not that it
> wouldn't help everyone. i think that ppl can be allowed to cry
> without implying that crying is *the* proper response or
> suggesting that everyone who's been r*ped should cry or has
> unshed tears.
>
> >but I am glad that some were helped. It certainly raised awareness of the issue,
> >and brought it out in the open for many people.
>
> :-) that's good. i'm glad to hear it. i'm sorry that you
> didn't get to go.
> >>
> >> sorry to go off on this rant.
> >
> >I am sorry that the things I say incite you to rant ;-)
>
> de nada. good talking to you.
>
> e
> >
> >mdove
Beauty
happened to manage to come. Then you would have them. It could be a work of
art and a kind of powerful potion - a kind of reminder of whatever you needed
it to be a reminder of - healing? If that's what the tears would mean for
you. If it were me doing such a thing, I might even start with a tiny few
drops of my favorite, or a significant, essential oil - so that the potion
were some significant, powerful, fragrant thing. Just this nutso idea that
suddenly popped into my sleepy-addled brain.
Beauty.
Mourning Dove wrote:
> e<anon...@anon.twwells.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Mourning Dove wrote:
> > >Hi, mischa's chaos,
> >
> > hi, mischa's chaos,
> >
> > it's good to see you posting again. :-) i like reading your
> > posts. i'm impressed with your TV show and how much it helped.
> > congratulations and thanks. :-)
> > >
> be quite an undertaking. There are many people who were helped by this
> event, and who were heard for the first time in their lives. How do you
> think those in charge could have created a more balanced event? (I am
> not trying to be rude here, I really would like to know what they could
> have done to be more sensitive to the experiences of all.) Would
> eliminating the handkerchief/tears idea have been enough? Perhaps an
> exhibit of survivor art of any type?
> >
> > in order for someone like J/c or me to participate, we have to
> > reinforce beliefs that harm us (i.e., that we have unshed tears
> > and that if we haven't shed them it's bc we're afraid or
> > unwilling or covering them up or pushing them down or something).
> > so either our voices are unheard or our own voices get used
> > against us. it's frustrating.
>
> I'm sure it is. Personally, I do have unshed tears, and do push them
> back if they threaten to emerge. It is frustrating as well. I wish I
> could either be like you guys, or be like those who can cry when they
> need to. I'm just stuck somewhere between, I guess. Perhaps an event
> like this art exhibit would have been good for someone like me. I am
> sorry that this event could not be beneficial to all people, but I am
> glad that some were helped. It certainly raised awareness of the issue,
> and brought it out in the open for many people.
>
> >
> > sorry to go off on this rant.
>
> I am sorry that the things I say incite you to rant ;-)
>
> mdove
>
> >
> > it sounds like a generally good
> > exhibit. i'm sorry that you didn't get to see it, Dove. but maybe
> > you can feel a bit better bc you didn't unknowingly oppress ppl
> > like J/c and me by contributing to it.
> >
> > i am sorry that you didn't get to go. :-( that bites.
> >
> > e
> >
> ________________________________________________________________
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trill
I participated in organizing the first take ba*k the night m*rch (why
did you splat it?) at the university I attended when I was in my mid
twenties. Later I worked with a coalition of sxl minorities to organize an
urban take b*ck the n*ght march focused on stopping h*te crimes and v*olnce
perpetrated against us. Both of those continue as annual traditions.
The thing you talk about in another post is a feminist movement project
called the cl*thesline project, I think. It commemorates people who have
suffered *bsve/ sxl assaults. When we stared the tbtn marches we used to
paint police style body outlines where r*pe had occurred, like on sidewalks
or at the doorstep of a building or on a lawn... with the words, "a r*pe
occurred here." A few years ago the women's studies dept. of that univ.
erected a wall, similar to the Vietnam war memorial but made out of
cardboard. It was labeled potential r*pists. The names on it included all
current male students, faculty, and physical plant employees.
Uh, the men went bonkers. They beat their chests and accused almost
every woman on campus of being a man-hater. They demanded that the wall
come down. And they made public defenses of their, uh, shall we say, well,
you know, those things that get them the designation of "male" or, better
yet, "man." There was such a ruckus that it made the national news, and if
you caught it you are figuring stuff out about me right now, eh? Anyway,
the guys even went as far as to say that such anatomy doesn't determine ones
potential to be a r*pst, and that women could commit this crime just as
well. (h-m-m-m-m, I think statistics indicate something different, but I
always to point out how one can manipulate statistics and how manipulative
statistics can be.)
Anyway, thought you'd be interested.
trill
p.s. btw, I do consider all of that stuff to be a type of art. oh, like the
AIDS Quilt. That's the same type of art, don't you think?
Beauty <dabl...@pioneeris.net> wrote in message
news:3B35733A...@pioneeris.net...
Tess Valerian
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In the state where I live, r*pe by legal definition is something only men
can do, and only to women. There are other terms and definitions for other
things, but r*pe is very narrowly construed.
As for the logic behind the wall that was, um, erected, I have matches in my
house. Does that make me a potential arsonist?
TV
"mosaics" <mos...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106242247...@asarian-host.net...
> Hello trill,
>
> I can see why the men went bonkers if -every- male was listed as a
> potential r*pist simply for being male. I don't buy the logic that since
> r*pe is committed primarily by males that this means that all males are
> potential r*pists. I think the women from this women studies dept went
> overboard, trill. I think the anger and upset by the men, justified.
>
> Sierra of TN
> > > > > this. so... do you have any ideas here? we'd greatly appreciate
trill
if my original post caused problems for anyone. I didn't think it through.
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
O
Yeah, Sierra, I don't know. I don't really have a judgment about it one way
or another. But, in terms of art, well, it got a lot of people talking
about a lot of things, just like what is happening here with your thoughts
and tv's.
Anyway, I didn't participate in that "action." I wouldn't be involved
in the women's studies dept. for a lot of reasons. But, I found the entire
"event" to be interesting, sociologically and gender dynamically. As far as
the logic of the action, well, I think it is the same logic that developed
the old slogan, "disarm [the] r*pist." And, I think your criticism, and
tv's are valid re: that slogan, as well.
trill
mosaics <mos...@asarian-host.net> wrote in message
news:200106242247...@asarian-host.net...
> Hello trill,
>
> I can see why the men went bonkers if -every- male was listed as a
> potential r*pist simply for being male. I don't buy the logic that since
> r*pe is committed primarily by males that this means that all males are
> potential r*pists. I think the women from this women studies dept went
> overboard, trill. I think the anger and upset by the men, justified.
>
> Sierra of TN
>
> > > > > this. so... do you have any ideas here? we'd greatly appreciate
trill
beginning. I apologize.
see you below.
Tess Valerian <tessva...@home.com> wrote in message
news:rawZ6.30081$w5.36...@news1.rdc1.ga.home.com...
whether or not I agree with the wall, well, I think that the "logic" of it
was that of the law in your state.
>
> As for the logic behind the wall that was, um, erected,
sorry, poor choice of words.
>I have matches in my
> house. Does that make me a potential arsonist?
I think that key word is "potential," but pointing that out does not mean
that I miss the "fighting words" nature of the whole endeavor.
I don't know. I get confused by the persistance of partriarchal and
paternalistic and s*xist and downright misogynist culture that I live in.
But, for the most part, I don't think that I entirely judge anyone by
anatomy. In fact, I think that gender is a social construct that has only
one relationship to anatomy -- assignment or designation. In and of itself,
I do not think that anatomy signifies gender nor anything else about a
person's character.
oops, I think I put your name wrong in my last post. I'm sorry. I should
have put the TV in upper case. I didn't mean any disrespect.
trill
p.s. It interests me that this discussion takes place under the header,
"what does it take to break the silence?"
Beauty
(splatted for searches, okay?), and remember things as you describe them, and
yes, I think I did mention that they have continued annually (and, yes, about 20
years would be right, if my dates are correct). Women who had survived a r*pe
wore t-shirts or signs or buttons, etc. There were so many. My then-husb. was
w/me, and he was in tears. I also recall that the thing I was talking about is
the clothesline project. I don't have a stellar memory for names of stuff all
the time. Would I call it art? Does it matter? "Art" is another one of those
words that doesn't thrill me. I make stuff. If someone wants to call it "art"
that's okay. I think that "art" has been used as a way of separating
"good/elite" stuff from "lesser/folk/craft" stuff - which is why I don't tend to
get into it as a term - although, for simplicity's sake, I will call myself a
visual artist when asked. Also, for me, "art" got me into trouble, because I
wanted making stuff to be about beauty and joy and not about achievement - when
I started thinking about it in terms of "art" (at a certain point in my life,
anyway, when I was much more vulnerable), thinking about it as "art" stopped me
cold. Now I am hardier, and I can think of it as whatever - art, whatever.
Here's a thing. People think artists' work, when being done in a public place,
is subject to public observation and comment - like a pregnant woman's belly,
right? So they always ask (the overdetermined question), "What are you
making?" I always smile sweetly - or not - and say, "A drawing." Sometimes
that shuts them up. Sometimes they are more dense and say, "But what's it
supposed to be?" At which point I shrug and say, "You tell me." And then they
sometimes do, or they say, "That's really neat," or whatever. Very interesting
how predictable these things are. Why were you surprised (offended?) that I
splatted tbtn?
Beauty.
trill
<major snip>
>Why were you surprised (offended?) that I
> splatted tbtn?
not surprised nor offended, just curious about your reason trill
mischa bach
just a quick hello & thanks for the suggestion from the usses as we're sorta
busy while it's already kinda late here.
hope to write some more later this week.
mischa's chaos
Mourning Dove
I must admit, upon reading this, CS made the strangest face....kind of a
questioning smirk, with one eyebrow raised, as if to say "You've got to
be kidding!!!!!!!!" But the rest of us really like the idea. Kind of
reminds me of a book I used to read to my kids when they were very
little, about on owl who made tear-water tea. It was such a poignant
little story, describing how he collected his tears.
Where would one find a tiny stoppered bottle? At a place that sells
essential oils? I have always avoided such stores, because many scents
are migraine triggers for me (although I know there are oils/scents that
are supposed to be very good for headaches.)
thanks for the suggestion,
mdove
> > > Mourning Dove wrote:
> > > >Hi, mischa's chaos,
> > >
> > > hi, mischa's chaos,
> > >
> > > it's good to see you posting again. :-) i like reading your
> > > posts. i'm impressed with your TV show and how much it helped.
> > > congratulations and thanks. :-)
> > > >
> > > snip
> > > >
> > > >An event took place in this city several years ago that really
> had
> > > a
> > > lot
> > > >of people talking. Of course I can't remember who sponsored the
> > > event,
> > > >but it received a lot of media attention. It was an art
> display,
> > > with
> > > >artwork by survivors of s*xual abuse. It took place at a local
> > > mall,
> > > and
> > > >lasted several days. The canvas for each work was a cloth
> > > handkerchief,
> > >
> > > >to represent all of the tears (shed, or unshed) of those who
> have
> > > >experienced such 'buse.
> > >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> >
> > --
> > For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or
> e-mail:
> > he...@anon.twwells.com -- for an automatically returned help
> message
> > ad...@anon.twwells.com -- for the service's administrator
> > ano...@anon.twwells.com -- anonymous mail to the administrator
>
>
> Article 79934 of 79944 in alt.support.dissociation
>
>
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
--
Nancewt
for people who are not allowed to cry but view it as healing or who have
difficulty crying but want to. What a lovely gift to give oneself.
-Nancy
Safarigrl
then I have of late-- between the move at home
and at work, I have been unable to catch up with
the group. Then I had a ISP problem that I just
got all sorted out.
My comments are not in reference to what
e said, as I have no clue-- I have gotten to that
one yet. Although the Title did intrigue me as
it is something I have wrestled with for many years.
Recently I was doing a visualization on what
would happen if I tell-- it was rather a triggering
experience. In the visualization I kept myself as
an adult going back to one of my memories of
abuse. Right in the middle of it, I snapped right
up in bed-- right back to the present with a horrible
fear. After that I experienced flashes (although I
can not say if they are memories) of hands being
tied, beatings etc.
What I find amazing even in my dreams certain family
members are always silent. Over the years since I have
realized what happened to me as a child I have tried to
share the information with people I consider safe. At
first it never came out in a coherent sense. Over the
years it got easier to at least put it into words people
could understand. Yet, it is still the most difficult thing
for me to talk about. A friend of mine noticed a couple
of weeks ago-- I can be talking aobut things with what
happened and my family and at some point (probably
because I am getting too close to something) I will
out of the blue change the subject. Which is a signal
I can no longer talk about it. It was an interesting
observation that I had never picked up on. As I said
this is probably way off topic of what the original post
was-- but it reminded me of my own experiences.
Yes, I am backkkkkkkkkk
Safari
"trill" <tri...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:3b2e6999$0$95688$45be...@newscene.com...
Ross Tyler
Safarigrl wrote:
I guess I am having a few problems with this particular post, and am unsure as
to why it appeared again , when it did.. E. you said some very hurtful .
accusing , and as if you and these others were asking me to no longer post
here,You said it in several ways and included others You said some incredibly
hurtful things to me. I also extended to you , an apology , if I had done the
same. and was not replyed to.Ihave been hurt, yes I do have feelings , and that
is enough.Ecc
>
> > >
> >
> >
e
>Hi, see below and way below please.
snip
>
>I guess I am having a few problems with this particular post, and am unsure as
>to why it appeared again , when it did..
Safari posted it. she was away for a while and read and replied
to some old posts when she came back. that happens on usenet.
>E. you said some very hurtful .
>accusing , and as if you and these others were asking me to no longer post
>here,
i don't think i or anyone said that. in fact, when you were going
in for treatment, i posted something about hoping that things
would go well and you'd be back. (IIRC. i know i posted something
positive that would suggest that.) that was after this post.
>You said it in several ways and included others
are you saying that i asked you to stop posting? repeatedly? can
you show me where? (provide the post title, date, and quote.) bc
i don't remember doing that or even suggesting it. it sounds like
a very bad misunderstanding and i'd like to know what i said that
was misunderstood. TIA (thanks in advance.)
>You said some incredibly hurtful things to me.
i'm sorry if i hurt you. i didn't mean to. fwiw, from what you
say above, it sounds like you misunderstood me.
>I also extended to you , an apology , if I had done the
>same.
sorry. i didn't see that. if it was in a post like the part i
snipped, i'm too sick to read that. i probably could if your
reply was in one color with no > in front of it. but if it's not
(and many of your replies weren't), i probably wouldn't be able
to read it. my apologies.
> and was not replyed to.Ihave been hurt, yes I do have feelings , and that
>is enough.Ecc
i'm sorry if i did something to hurt you. i didn't mean to.
e
Ross Tyler
expalining or identifying what it was .I believe I said it as clearly as I can. I
have no other skills to help me in explaining my feelings , Especially if it were
all just misunderstandings. I am very sorry for your illness , and how it
prevents you from being comfortable , and able to do all that you would desire.
I am very glad for you , and all who have this group as an outlet, for discussion.
Yes I do , remember, every positive and encourageing thing you have ever wrote to
me. Thankyou
I amthrough detox. and am now in an intensuive out pt. program. I am attending AA
meeting's daily. So far So good. I lack A t's help with the DID. portion. , mainly
because of money.
I feel somewhat discouraged with myself. in my way's of communicating with this
group. I seemed to have become , a person who comes and then just has to go , then
keeps coming back. I feel unreliable in this way and do not care for nyself in
that.
I don't think I have ever given you the credit you deserve, by surviving. such a
abusive, and destructive childhood. and your tremendous accomplishments to date.
It is my desire to say this to you.
Thaks Ecc
e
i'm glad that we can put this behind us.
i'm glad that you're back. i hope the dotox went well.
congratulations on your progress. i know that quitting drinking
too much has been difficult for other ppl i've known.
thank you for your compliment. i don't think i have any
accomplishments to date except my kid. given that many ppl have
kids, i'm not sure that's an accomplishment. ;-) however, i am
proud of hir, although not particularly my role in parenting hir.
(i think i've done ok: not bad, not great.) i don't think my
abuse was all that bad and i don't think surviving it is
something to be proud (or ashamed) of. a lot of it was luck and
not having perps who had the guts to k*ll me (most of the time,
at least intentionally). sure, it was possible on many occasions
(that's where the part of luck - good or bad i wasn't sure <g> -
comes in) but not extremely likely. i wasn't a superkid or
anything like that.
i was a regular kid and for the most part had a pretty good
childhood. e.g., i loved to read. i liked school. both were
wonderful escapes for me. i think they were for many ppl. that
may be why many of us did so well in school.
i'm sorry that you lived through your abuse and neglect.
congratulations on surviving and on your accomplishments so far.
e
Ross Tyler <rty...@olympus.net> wrote:
> Thanks for the reply and the apology. I do not wish to engage any longer in
>expalining or identifying what it was .I believe I said it as clearly as I can. I
>have no other skills to help me in explaining my feelings , Especially if it were
>all just misunderstandings. I am very sorry for your illness , and how it
>prevents you from being comfortable , and able to do all that you would desire.
>
>I am very glad for you , and all who have this group as an outlet, for discussion.
>
>Yes I do , remember, every positive and encourageing thing you have ever wrote to
>me. Thankyou
>
>I amthrough detox. and am now in an intensuive out pt. program. I am attending AA
>meeting's daily. So far So good. I lack A t's help with the DID. portion. , mainly
>because of money.
>
>I feel somewhat discouraged with myself. in my way's of communicating with this
>group. I seemed to have become , a person who comes and then just has to go , then
>keeps coming back. I feel unreliable in this way and do not care for nyself in
>that.
>I don't think I have ever given you the credit you deserve, by surviving. such a
>abusive, and destructive childhood. and your tremendous accomplishments to date.
> It is my desire to say this to you.
>Thaks Ecc
--
e
ps when i saw this, i realized i said it badly. i had originally
written "i'm sorry that you experienced abuse and neglect." but
that sounded detached, unfeeling, and unsympathetic. so i change
"experienced" to "lived through." i'm so out of it that i didn't
realize how that sounded. i meant what i said originally, that
i'm sorry that you experienced abuse and neglect instead of
something more positive.
e
i wrote:
>i'm sorry that you lived through your abuse and neglect.
>congratulations on surviving and on your accomplishments so far.
--
Ross Tyler
e wrote:
> Ecc,
>
> i'm glad that we can put this behind us.
Me too., I have wanted to just receive such a post from you as this. Thank you.
>
>
> i'm glad that you're back. i hope the dotox went well.
> congratulations on your progress. i know that quitting drinking
> too much has been difficult for other ppl i've known.
It is going well. of course it is not easy.I drink to numb the pain, I recently began
having some very sad, painful , body memories. They come with so much surprise , because
I am usually involved in a mundane chore , or something like that. I am not thinking of
it,
The best sdvice given to me by a psy.doc. . Was I just had to quit thinking about and
dwelling on it. At first I had a surge of anger , but then I realized she just didn't
know
>
>
> thank you for your compliment. i don't think i have any
> accomplishments to date except my kid. given that many ppl have
> kids, i'm not sure that's an accomplishment. ;-) however, i am
> proud of hir, although not particularly my role in parenting hir.
> (i think i've done ok: not bad, not great.) i don't think my
> abuse was all that bad and i don't think surviving it is
> something to be proud (or ashamed) of. a lot of it was luck and
> not having perps who had the guts to k*ll me (most of the time,
> at least intentionally). sure, it was possible on many occasions
> (that's where the part of luck - good or bad i wasn't sure <g> -
> comes in) but not extremely likely. i wasn't a superkid or
> anything like that.
I guess whether it was good or not to bad is according to people's perception. I am
careful what I say around the public. Some peoiple, just feel ill from some of the every
day life I lived as a child. I wonder has anyone ever felt proud of you , as you do your
daughter? I mean a relative?
I have 2 girls and they are very different day and night. I love and am proud of each.
and enjoy spending time with them. I am married to a man who grew up in a family
of minimal abuse as I know it . They have taught me so much. I think that for the most
part , the circle has been broken, of abuse like I lived it . I know they do not see the
world as I do , and have. That makes me smile!
Despite all things I have felt like one of the luckiest people alive.
>
>
> i was a regular kid and for the most part had a pretty good
> childhood. e.g., i loved to read. i liked school. both were
> wonderful escapes for me. i think they were for many ppl. that
> may be why many of us did so well in school.
I don't remember much of that, but I have always been a voracious reader.
I would describe my childhood as miserablwe and wretched , without ever a caring adult
to help me and my brother and sister's. We did help each other though.
>
>
> i'm sorry that you lived through your abuse and neglect.
> congratulations on surviving and on your accomplishments so far.
Thankyou and especially for caring about how it came across to me, relly I understood
what you meant. I have an alter , a very strong one who does not feel anything.She has
no wants or desires. I like her she makes excellent decisions, and not based on anything
but the facts mam. She did a good job in the emergency room. I also had a one present
simultaneous who provided a smile a touch , whatever .
This one is so competent. I need her .
I think I am writing a little more than I intended to , This whole point was to say
thanks . ECC
e
snip
>> i'm glad that you're back. i hope the dotox went well.
>> congratulations on your progress. i know that quitting drinking
>> too much has been difficult for other ppl i've known.
>
>It is going well. of course it is not easy.I drink to numb the pain, I recently began
>having some very sad, painful , body memories.
:-(
>They come with so much surprise , because I am usually involved in a mundane
>chore , or something like that. I am not thinking of it,
sounds rough.
>
>The best sdvice given to me by a psy.doc. . Was I just had to quit thinking about and
>dwelling on it.
lol. i wonder what she tells ppl with OCD? ;-)
>At first I had a surge of anger , but then I realized she just didn't know
except that it's her purported area of expertise. sorry that the
best recommendation you got didn't work.
>>
>>
>> thank you for your compliment. i don't think i have any
>> accomplishments to date except my kid. given that many ppl have
>> kids, i'm not sure that's an accomplishment. ;-) however, i am
>> proud of hir, although not particularly my role in parenting hir.
>> (i think i've done ok: not bad, not great.) i don't think my
>> abuse was all that bad and i don't think surviving it is
>> something to be proud (or ashamed) of. a lot of it was luck and
>> not having perps who had the guts to k*ll me (most of the time,
>> at least intentionally). sure, it was possible on many occasions
>> (that's where the part of luck - good or bad i wasn't sure <g> -
>> comes in) but not extremely likely. i wasn't a superkid or
>> anything like that.
>
>I guess whether it was good or not to bad is according to people's perception.
i think so.
>I am
>careful what I say around the public. Some peoiple, just feel ill from some of the every
>day life I lived as a child.
i rarely have any reason to mention my childhood. i also know
that even if other ppl are talking about theirs, it's rarely
appropriate to say much about mine. which is ok with me.
>I wonder has anyone ever felt proud of you , as you do your
>daughter? I mean a relative?
i dunno. it's not something i've thought about. it's irrelevant
to me. the question itself seems odd. no offense. i think it
shows something about you, about what's important to you. i think
it's good that you know what's important to you.
>I have 2 girls and they are very different day and night. I love and am proud of each.
:-)
>and enjoy spending time with them.
:-)
>I am married to a man who grew up in a family
>of minimal abuse as I know it . They have taught me so much. I think that for the most
>part , the circle has been broken, of abuse like I lived it . I know they do not see the
>world as I do , and have. That makes me smile!
:-)
>
>Despite all things I have felt like one of the luckiest people alive.
>
glad to hear that. i think that i'm lucky, too.
>>
>> i was a regular kid and for the most part had a pretty good
>> childhood. e.g., i loved to read. i liked school. both were
>> wonderful escapes for me. i think they were for many ppl. that
>> may be why many of us did so well in school.
>
>I don't remember much of that, but I have always been a voracious reader.
>I would describe my childhood as miserablwe and wretched , without ever a caring adult
>to help me and my brother and sister's. We did help each other though.
sorry that your childhood was miserable and wretched. :-( glad
you and your sibs helped each other. :-)
>>
>> i'm sorry that you lived through your abuse and neglect.
>> congratulations on surviving and on your accomplishments so far.
>
>Thankyou and especially for caring about how it came across to me, relly I understood
>what you meant.
good. i'm glad. thanks for letting me know.
>I have an alter , a very strong one who does not feel anything.She has
>no wants or desires. I like her she makes excellent decisions, and not based on anything
>but the facts mam. She did a good job in the emergency room.
she sounds like it.
>I also had a one present simultaneous who provided a smile a touch , whatever .
>This one is so competent. I need her .
i'm glad you have them.
>I think I am writing a little more than I intended to , This whole point was to say
>thanks . ECC
you're welcome. you, too. i hope things go well for you.
e