gotta question
cometz
suggested getting together with his father and having a meal out. have
done this many times in the past. thing is, gf notwithstanding, son
gets into state of mind where he starts getting nasty to me. little
put downs and ugly stuff. they are all in reaction to stuff we are not
good at, things like nervous or forgetful. know it is the illness and
what it has made me that he hates. know it intellectually. but very
tired of going thru this each time.
has gotten to the point where if i think of seeing him it gets all
tense and angry inside and then huge feeling of nausea and too much
sorrow to manage.
i know i can do this. go to meal. deal with stuff. go home. but big
part doesn't want to do this. tired of being so badly right now that
are shutting down everyone we know. can't handle.
but shutting him out when his gf is here, and at this time of year
looms as huge ugliness like a cruel payback for him hurting. don't
feel that way. well, don't think i do. do get angry at being hurt but
not passive agressive ugly.
some inside are pushing to be safe but i really think it is my
responsibility to be parent and see him. do love him much which is why
this is so painful and confusing. his feelings are valid which is also
important for me to know. he is not just randomly mean brat. is anger
and hurt of his own.
just don't know what to do. think i should go but want others to offer
thinks.
thank you.
betsy
gathring
can accept with caveat that you will not stay around if he starts in on
you. you have the right not to be re injured, regardless of the measure
of his previous hurts.
truly do not deserve to be hurt more. there is no amount of
responsibility that requires you to accept more hurt.
imho, fwiw.
cometz
thing is that i have never called him on it. just got big shame and
shut down. now don't know how to broach it ahead of time.
in rl i am mostly a really pathetic wimp. i avoid. i'm not good at
being direct. either i shut down and disappear or i go into fury.
mostly the fury is done privately or by later complaining.
i am not an attractive human being in behavior. no skills. no
courage.
> truly do not deserve to be hurt more. there is no amount of
> responsibility that requires you to accept more hurt.
>
i don't know about deserve. can't think on it clearly. but understand
not required to accept.
also is problem that the depression is taking away all life. am just
walking zombie. voice flat. don't want to do or be.
sorry. is all complaining and self pity. depression means life is a
waste. that is how we are.
betsy
> imho, fwiw.
gathring
is never too late to start. may be the key to beginning to heal your
relationship. understand how difficult it is. realize this time it may
be about setting the boundary and then letting him walk all over it.
know that every journey starts with the first step.
perhaps could broach in email, perhaps even forward post to him.
as far as confronting, could be as simple as saying "ouch" when he says
something hurtful.
dunno, don't really know much, just think may be worth trying.
> in rl i am mostly a really pathetic wimp. i avoid. i'm not good at
> being direct. either i shut down and disappear or i go into fury.
> mostly the fury is done privately or by later complaining.
understand this. different option for you. when he says something
hurtful, say to self "ouch". then remind self that is about him and his
hurt, and is not really about you. you truly are not that person that
you are afraid of being. know this because you are here working at not
being that person.
> i am not an attractive human being in behavior. no skills. no
> courage.
have been here. do not have to be that "attractive human being". is a
falsehood, that is painted by the media and society, and is the ideal
that perhaps we all strive for, but is not real. and only way to achieve
skills is to practice. and sometimes courage is about facing ourselves,
and the distortions we paint of ourselves. see you trying to do that all
the time.
>> truly do not deserve to be hurt more. there is no amount of
>> responsibility that requires you to accept more hurt.
>>
>
> i don't know about deserve. can't think on it clearly. but understand
> not required to accept.
no one deserves to be hurt, ever. no one. there is enough good in the
world for all of us, we just need to figure out how to accept it.
> also is problem that the depression is taking away all life. am just
> walking zombie. voice flat. don't want to do or be.
understand. is truly ok to just be, do not have to be excited.
> sorry. is all complaining and self pity. depression means life is a
> waste. that is how we are.
feels to me like questioning, grasping in the dark for the light that
you know is there, if only you can find it. feels like fear and doubt
that light really still exists. will tell you now, it really does.
astri
> son called and left message. he and gf are coming to town. he
> suggested getting together with his father and having a meal out.
> have done this many times in the past. thing is, gf notwithstanding,
> son gets into state of mind where he starts getting nasty to me.
> little put downs and ugly stuff. they are all in reaction to stuff we
> are not good at, things like nervous or forgetful. know it is the
> illness and what it has made me that he hates. know it
> intellectually. but very tired of going thru this each time.
can say this to him and say you'd like to see him but you'd like him to
be aware of his behaviors and feelings?
> has gotten to the point where if i think of seeing him it gets all
> tense and angry inside and then huge feeling of nausea and too much
> sorrow to manage.
:(
> i know i can do this. go to meal. deal with stuff. go home. but big
> part doesn't want to do this. tired of being so badly right now that
> are shutting down everyone we know. can't handle.
fragile right now
> but shutting him out when his gf is here, and at this time of year
> looms as huge ugliness like a cruel payback for him hurting. don't
> feel that way. well, don't think i do. do get angry at being hurt but
> not passive agressive ugly.
so tell him you love him and want to see him and understand you've not
always been best of mothers, but you'd appreciate some gentleness this
year?
treat him like adult and speak plainly? might get adult in response.
> some inside are pushing to be safe but i really think it is my
> responsibility to be parent and see him. do love him much which is
> why this is so painful and confusing. his feelings are valid which is
> also important for me to know. he is not just randomly mean brat. is
> anger and hurt of his own.
can recognize this with him.
and still ask for what you need.
> just don't know what to do. think i should go but want others to
> offer thinks.
>
> thank you.
>
> betsy
those are ours
-- astri
======================
to email send to astri
======================
at volcano dot org
======================
astri
>>
>> can accept with caveat that you will not stay around if he starts in
>> on you. you have the right not to be re injured, regardless of the
>> measure of his previous hurts.
>
> thing is that i have never called him on it. just got big shame and
> shut down. now don't know how to broach it ahead of time.
with specific examples of what you are talking about. can say you've
never mentioned this because you understood his anger and you love him,
but now you are requesting he be aware of his behavior in relation to
you.
> in rl i am mostly a really pathetic wimp. i avoid. i'm not good at
> being direct. either i shut down and disappear or i go into fury.
> mostly the fury is done privately or by later complaining.
then do it in writing. can you email?
> i am not an attractive human being in behavior. no skills. no
> courage.
not from this perspective.
>> truly do not deserve to be hurt more. there is no amount of
>> responsibility that requires you to accept more hurt.
>
> i don't know about deserve. can't think on it clearly. but understand
> not required to accept.
>
> also is problem that the depression is taking away all life. am just
> walking zombie. voice flat. don't want to do or be.
:(
> sorry. is all complaining and self pity. depression means life is a
> waste. that is how we are.
:(
cometz
yes. not good at that first step part.
> perhaps could broach in email, perhaps even forward post to him.
did that once before, tried to express thoughts about this kind of
stuff, not so explicit to one issue, and he got very ticked off cause
i didn't have the guts to talk to him in real. he is just very angry.
justifiable. two parents who are damaged. i tried. the other didn't.
is mess.
>
> as far as confronting, could be as simple as saying "ouch" when he says
> something hurtful.
>
that is a good idea. i will do that.
> dunno, don't really know much, just think may be worth trying.
>
think you know some. you have alluded to struggle with child. i think.
maybe mixed up. makes your words have weight.
> > in rl i am mostly a really pathetic wimp. i avoid. i'm not good at
> > being direct. either i shut down and disappear or i go into fury.
> > mostly the fury is done privately or by later complaining.
>
> understand this. different option for you. when he says something
> hurtful, say to self "ouch". then remind self that is about him and his
> hurt, and is not really about you. you truly are not that person that
> you are afraid of being. know this because you are here working at not
> being that person.
>
don't think is working anymore. just trying to defend myself. trying
to pretend there is a way to go. but not going anywhere. big talk.
hollow life.
> > i am not an attractive human being in behavior. no skills. no
> > courage.
>
> have been here. do not have to be that "attractive human being". is a
> falsehood, that is painted by the media and society, and is the ideal
> that perhaps we all strive for, but is not real. and only way to achieve
> skills is to practice. and sometimes courage is about facing ourselves,
> and the distortions we paint of ourselves. see you trying to do that all
> the time.
ok. that makes sense. looking at distortions is making illness tho.
very like feelings we endured growing up. disliked. overlooked.
unwanted. seeing how ugly we must be to engender so much disdain from
outsiders.
>
> >> truly do not deserve to be hurt more. there is no amount of
> >> responsibility that requires you to accept more hurt.
>
> > i don't know about deserve. can't think on it clearly. but understand
> > not required to accept.
>
> no one deserves to be hurt, ever. no one. there is enough good in the
> world for all of us, we just need to figure out how to accept it.
>
here is only where i find it. and from t. but that isn't the same. is
steps away from real. is work good. not friends good.
> > also is problem that the depression is taking away all life. am just
> > walking zombie. voice flat. don't want to do or be.
>
> understand. is truly ok to just be, do not have to be excited.
>
not about excited tho. about being responsive. really. sleep all day.
walk dogs. sit at computer. walk dogs. ignore phone calls. eat. is
zombie. dull witted and empty.
> > sorry. is all complaining and self pity. depression means life is a
> > waste. that is how we are.
>
> feels to me like questioning, grasping in the dark for the light that
> you know is there, if only you can find it. feels like fear and doubt
> that light really still exists. will tell you now, it really does.
believe you. don't know it at all. now anyway. very flat and empty.
betsy
cometz
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009, cometz wrote:
> > son called and left message. he and gf are coming to town. he
> > suggested getting together with his father and having a meal out.
> > have done this many times in the past. thing is, gf notwithstanding,
> > son gets into state of mind where he starts getting nasty to me.
> > little put downs and ugly stuff. they are all in reaction to stuff we
> > are not good at, things like nervous or forgetful. know it is the
> > illness and what it has made me that he hates. know it
> > intellectually. but very tired of going thru this each time.
>
> can say this to him and say you'd like to see him but you'd like him to
> be aware of his behaviors and feelings?
>
not very well. he doesn't want to hear. think is too much anger and
disappointment. also think he only wants to see results, not talking.
> > has gotten to the point where if i think of seeing him it gets all
> > tense and angry inside and then huge feeling of nausea and too much
> > sorrow to manage.
>
> :(
>
> > i know i can do this. go to meal. deal with stuff. go home. but big
> > part doesn't want to do this. tired of being so badly right now that
> > are shutting down everyone we know. can't handle.
>
> fragile right now
>
i guess so. mostly feel stupid and useless person. see life of stupid
useless. not good.
> > but shutting him out when his gf is here, and at this time of year
> > looms as huge ugliness like a cruel payback for him hurting. don't
> > feel that way. well, don't think i do. do get angry at being hurt but
> > not passive agressive ugly.
>
> so tell him you love him and want to see him and understand you've not
> always been best of mothers, but you'd appreciate some gentleness this
> year?
>
think it will provoke snottiness. afraid it would.
> treat him like adult and speak plainly? might get adult in response.
sometimes he does. never dependably. hasn't had much training. he does
it well with friends and in his world. think his distress about
parents makes it too difficult for him.
>
> > some inside are pushing to be safe but i really think it is my
> > responsibility to be parent and see him. do love him much which is
> > why this is so painful and confusing. his feelings are valid which is
> > also important for me to know. he is not just randomly mean brat. is
> > anger and hurt of his own.
>
> can recognize this with him.
> and still ask for what you need.
>
ok. have to figure out how that is done. that relationship with him
doesn't seem to exist any longer.
> > just don't know what to do. think i should go but want others to
> > offer thinks.
>
> > thank you.
>
> > betsy
>
> those are ours
>
> -- astri
>
thank you also. is bad time. worst for years. not going away. just
endless banal badness. tired.
betsy
cometz
> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009, cometz wrote:
> > On Dec 25, 6:35 pm, gathring <nospamcsto...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>
> >> can accept with caveat that you will not stay around if he starts in
> >> on you. you have the right not to be re injured, regardless of the
> >> measure of his previous hurts.
>
> > thing is that i have never called him on it. just got big shame and
> > shut down. now don't know how to broach it ahead of time.
>
> with specific examples of what you are talking about. can say you've
> never mentioned this because you understood his anger and you love him,
> but now you are requesting he be aware of his behavior in relation to
> you.
>
big problem. get so dissy when he starts in that can never remember
details. he does, but i never do. remember place. remember who is
there. can't remember what triggers it, what he said, what i tried to
say. is just bad blur or hurt. is one of the things he hates. no
memory. makes me look stupid. everyone i know can remember lines from
movies or tv shows. can remember plot of books. in me it goes in and
then goes away. always impressed by ppl who can remember stuff. is
like i have old age dementia for the whole life. and none inside can
remember things either.
like, you remember who is who of the insiders of others here. and what
they are like. for me is all fuzz. eventually learn the names. sort of
learn the personalities. but is always a struggle. and if not repeated
or recent all the information goes away.
always know this to be about stupid and not paying attention.
> > in rl i am mostly a really pathetic wimp. i avoid. i'm not good at
> > being direct. either i shut down and disappear or i go into fury.
> > mostly the fury is done privately or by later complaining.
>
> then do it in writing. can you email?
>
did once. bad idea. he got angry cause of cowardice to not talk to
him. rock and hard place.
> > i am not an attractive human being in behavior. no skills. no
> > courage.
>
> not from this perspective.
>
this perspective is only what we say. you don't see the chaos we live
in. don't see the rage shouting in the car. don't see all the ugly and
useless. here is just words. in real is just anxious and nothing.
> >> truly do not deserve to be hurt more. there is no amount of
> >> responsibility that requires you to accept more hurt.
>
> > i don't know about deserve. can't think on it clearly. but understand
> > not required to accept.
>
> > also is problem that the depression is taking away all life. am just
> > walking zombie. voice flat. don't want to do or be.
>
> :(
>
> > sorry. is all complaining and self pity. depression means life is a
> > waste. that is how we are.
>
> :(
>
> -- astri
>
thank you for trying. think i am so far down i can't find anyway off
the floor. wish we could just disappear in a way that would be like we
never were. so much easier.
betsy
Puddles
i think write him a letter. ask him to read it, would be hard to be mean
and nasty to you after you talk about your feelings?
Puddles
maybe poem then. poem of 'your communication' ones that only asd knows
but under heart felt realness. write him a poem and maybe he won't feel
like you are 'telling' him something, you are only 'saying'.
we real real bad at memory too. t says cause only certain parts hold
certain memory and we can't always switch to find them when we want to.
have always always been terrible at movies and stars and plots. but, we
learned how to play what we call 'word games'. we got really good at
learning to distract ppl out of asking questions. ppl like to talk and
they like to be heard. so, i can ask a question back or distract them
with a 'related' issue as to prompt them to change the conversation.
Most ppl don't notice when you answer questions with questions unless
they are persistent. even then, i will ask why it is so important for
them to know?
astri
> On Dec 25, 8:38 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009, cometz wrote:
>>> son called and left message. he and gf are coming to town. he
>>> suggested getting together with his father and having a meal out.
>>> have done this many times in the past. thing is, gf
>>> notwithstanding, son gets into state of mind where he starts
>>> getting nasty to me. little put downs and ugly stuff. they are all
>>> in reaction to stuff we are not good at, things like nervous or
>>> forgetful. know it is the illness and what it has made me that he
>>> hates. know it intellectually. but very tired of going thru this
>>> each time.
>>
>> can say this to him and say you'd like to see him but you'd like him
>> to be aware of his behaviors and feelings?
>
> not very well. he doesn't want to hear. think is too much anger and
> disappointment. also think he only wants to see results, not talking.
hmmm
>>> has gotten to the point where if i think of seeing him it gets all
>>> tense and angry inside and then huge feeling of nausea and too much
>>> sorrow to manage.
>>
>> :(
>>
>>> i know i can do this. go to meal. deal with stuff. go home. but big
>>> part doesn't want to do this. tired of being so badly right now
>>> that are shutting down everyone we know. can't handle.
>>
>> fragile right now
>>
>
> i guess so. mostly feel stupid and useless person. see life of stupid
> useless. not good.
is the depression
>>> but shutting him out when his gf is here, and at this time of year
>>> looms as huge ugliness like a cruel payback for him hurting. don't
>>> feel that way. well, don't think i do. do get angry at being hurt
>>> but not passive agressive ugly.
>>
>> so tell him you love him and want to see him and understand you've
>> not always been best of mothers, but you'd appreciate some
>> gentleness this year?
>
> think it will provoke snottiness. afraid it would.
would need to be prepared for that
wondering if you're protecting him or you or both?
>> treat him like adult and speak plainly? might get adult in response.
>
> sometimes he does. never dependably. hasn't had much training. he
> does it well with friends and in his world. think his distress about
> parents makes it too difficult for him.
also, you've never required it
>>> some inside are pushing to be safe but i really think it is my
>>> responsibility to be parent and see him. do love him much which is
>>> why this is so painful and confusing. his feelings are valid which
>>> is also important for me to know. he is not just randomly mean
>>> brat. is anger and hurt of his own.
>>
>> can recognize this with him.
>> and still ask for what you need.
>
> ok. have to figure out how that is done. that relationship with him
> doesn't seem to exist any longer.
sigh
>>> just don't know what to do. think i should go but want others to
>>> offer thinks.
>>
>>> thank you.
>>
>>> betsy
>>
>> those are ours
>
> thank you also. is bad time. worst for years. not going away. just
> endless banal badness. tired.
depression :(
-- astri
astri
> On Dec 25, 8:42 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Dec 2009, cometz wrote:
>>> On Dec 25, 6:35 pm, gathring <nospamcsto...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>
>>>> can accept with caveat that you will not stay around if he starts
>>>> in on you. you have the right not to be re injured, regardless of
>>>> the measure of his previous hurts.
>>
>>> thing is that i have never called him on it. just got big shame and
>>> shut down. now don't know how to broach it ahead of time.
>>
>> with specific examples of what you are talking about. can say you've
>> never mentioned this because you understood his anger and you love
>> him, but now you are requesting he be aware of his behavior in
>> relation to you.
>
> big problem. get so dissy when he starts in that can never remember
> details. he does, but i never do. remember place. remember who is
> there. can't remember what triggers it, what he said, what i tried to
> say. is just bad blur or hurt. is one of the things he hates. no
> memory. makes me look stupid. everyone i know can remember lines from
> movies or tv shows. can remember plot of books. in me it goes in and
> then goes away. always impressed by ppl who can remember stuff. is
> like i have old age dementia for the whole life. and none inside can
> remember things either.
:(
> like, you remember who is who of the insiders of others here. and what
> they are like. for me is all fuzz. eventually learn the names. sort of
> learn the personalities. but is always a struggle. and if not repeated
> or recent all the information goes away.
regrets
> always know this to be about stupid and not paying attention.
not about stupid
you not stupid
is about dissociating
>>> in rl i am mostly a really pathetic wimp. i avoid. i'm not good at
>>> being direct. either i shut down and disappear or i go into fury.
>>> mostly the fury is done privately or by later complaining.
>>
>> then do it in writing. can you email?
>
> did once. bad idea. he got angry cause of cowardice to not talk to
> him. rock and hard place.
:(
>>> i am not an attractive human being in behavior. no skills. no
>>> courage.
>>
>> not from this perspective.
>
> this perspective is only what we say. you don't see the chaos we live
> in. don't see the rage shouting in the car. don't see all the ugly
> and useless. here is just words. in real is just anxious and nothing.
here see what is underlying the anxious and nothing
see the best of you
maybe cuz you let us see the difficult, too
>>>> truly do not deserve to be hurt more. there is no amount of
>>>> responsibility that requires you to accept more hurt.
>>
>>> i don't know about deserve. can't think on it clearly. but
>>> understand not required to accept.
>>
>>> also is problem that the depression is taking away all life. am
>>> just walking zombie. voice flat. don't want to do or be.
>>
>> :(
>>
>>> sorry. is all complaining and self pity. depression means life is a
>>> waste. that is how we are.
>>
>> :(
>
> thank you for trying. think i am so far down i can't find anyway off
> the floor. wish we could just disappear in a way that would be like
> we never were. so much easier.
understand that wish
isn't possible, tho
-- astri
Uncle Clover
wrote:
I know your situation less than others who have responded, but folks
here can be so kind sometimes, I feel I should at least try to respond
in some way to some things. Parent/child issues abound, I know some of
them quite well.
It's hard to heal anything when you are afraid, and it sounds like you
are. That's okay, though, you have to give yourself "permission", so
to speak, to feel what you feel. You are afraid when it comes to
facing issues directly - you have a hard time being blunt or up-front
about your feelings and issues. It's okay to be that way, to feel that
way - it isn't easy for any of us. Don't be ashamed of it, it's not a
flaw. It's just you.
It is, however, a bit of a barrier to what you want in life. It's a
barrier that you didn't put there, I am sure. It's sort of what life
has left you with after all the things you've been through. It's
probably too close to this particular event you asked about to do much
good, but you can start working on learning how to step around that
barrier. It will always be there, that will always be part of who you
are, but you can learn to navigate the world by stepping around it.
You just have to learn to look at it the right way.
Start small when speaking honestly, bluntly, what you really feel.
When you're honest with people and you stand up for yourself, you will
end up saying things to some of them that they may not like to hear.
That seems hard for you. It may never be easy, but once you've come to
accept that it's okay, that such speech is actually "normal" and a
typical part of being "ordinary", you might learn how to do it in
spite of yourself. Don't even wait for the opportunity to come up.
Look for things in your world that you can change easily - things that
other people have decided should be the way they are, but that you
think would be better done differently.
It doesn't even have to be anything major, it can be something as
simple as deciding that you prefer for the spoons and knives to be
kept in this drawer instead of that one, or that you like
peanut-butter/miracle whip sandwiches and that if someone else thinks
it's gross, that's their tough luck.
I don't know what level you're at with regard to the things you -are-
willing to take a stand on, but wherever you are, you don't have to be
at the big stuff right off the bat. Find your boundaries and try to
nudge them a little - not so much that you end up causing more stress
than it's worth, but enough to get the gist of what it feels like.
It doesn't even have to be anything that's already existing in your
life. Look for things that you like or that you like to do, but that
you know those in your immediate surroundings probably won't like, or
will think are "strange" or "weird" - and learn to do them anyway.
Learning to be okay with doing things you want, things that you like,
even if you know other people don't like them or that other people
might think you're "strange" for doing them - that goes a long way
towards learning how to be able to stand up for yourself in bigger
ways.
I hope something that someone's said here is of use to you, even if
it's not anything I said. I hate such problems, but they seem to
plague so many of us. It's okay to want to keep others happy, but it's
not wrong to want some happiness for yourself. It's okay to be careful
not to hurt someone else's feelings, but that doesn't have to happen
entirely at the expense of your own.
Good luck. :-)
http://www.USENETHOST.com 100% Uncensored , 100% Anonymous, 5$/month Only!
Uncle Clover
I deleted the response already so I can't quote it, but someone had
suggested e-mailing him with your feelings or sending the post to him.
You stated that made him angry, that he said something about you not
being able to talk to him directly.
That's an issue I've faced, now that I think about it. One way I
learned how to deal with it was this: Instead of writing them or
e-mailing them with what I feel, I wrote/e-mailed something like this:
"I have something I want to talk to you about, but it's a bit
difficult for me to discuss. I should probably talk to you about it
face-to-face, but I want to do it when you're at a place where you're
able to take some time to talk about such things. When would be a good
time for me to call or visit you?"
That, I've found, is a good bridge between the urge to just send
everything in a letter and just striking up a conversation
face-to-face. You never know if someone's able to talk right at that
moment or if they're in a very receptive mood. But if you're not
trying to deal with the big stuff via a letter, I think this would do
well to overcome your son's objections while still letting you be in
control of the pace and the setting of the discussion you'd like to
have.
Just a thought, I hope it helps.
confuzzled
thanks
fuzzy
hi gathring
how you? we been wondering how you doing
<waves>
fuzzy
seems you remember the important stuff about people here. seen you do
that. seen you give good advice.
think we do ok here but we can always go back and reread stuff and we
can't remember details like some people here. in RL we forget lots and
tend to avoid some conversations because we just don't know. then seems
maybe like we don't care because we can't remember
<sigh> not sure we making sense or helping
gathring
thanks for asking about me, know i'm quiet a lot lately, but am still here.
confuzzled
:)
am glad
gathring
me too