Intro from Raven -- feel free to respond to me or to her
Emerging Butterfly
love with her spontaneity and wit. We are so glad she has you for a
support group, as she has desperately needed to connect with others
that are understanding. I personally am able to connect with her due
to my own past issues, and sure wish I'd had a group like this for
me.
Sorry, I tend to get wordy, so you are always welcome to discard any
irrelevant things that interject. Even I have little ones that like to
interrupt :)
EB has been working intensely on several issues, and is getting
better. C is no longer a factor here, thank goodness, and although
there is much more to do, things are looking up. Sometimes it's slow,
sometimes fast, but safety is number one priority. This will take
time, but slow is better in the long run.
We want to reassure all here that EB is safe with us, and she always
has choices, although care is given to protect her.
Just to let you know, although my personal experiences are not with
multiples, I have experienced numerous others that have been
destructive. I myself suffered severe abuse, with no therapy, and had
to rescue myself. It was hard, still have residual issues, but have
learned to comfort my little child inside. Understanding EB has helped
her find comfort, and she in turn helps me, although we each have
different levels of need.
Please feel free to ask questions about me, as I have taught myself
how to communicate without personally internalizing, which used to be
a huge problem for me. Hope you understand.
Updates come when we are in a comfort zone, so sorry for any delays.
Wish we could pour out more information, but we are being cautious due
to past dangers caused by C reading this group, and we are now aware
there may be others, so we have to hold back some.
EB is really working hard, and so she needs lots of rest in between
times. We encourage Internet and phone calls, although they must be at
times when she feels safest and most comfortable.
So glad she found us. We have uncovered some amazingly strong alters,
in addition to the others, and we are building rapport with them all
to strengthen her. Very interesting and amusing alters! :) We have
fallen in love with them so fast!
We understand that EB often moves quickly and was very destructive
before she found us. Hence, we are aware that folks here may be
concerned and for good reason, considering her destructive impulses
and past tendencies to run to potentially dangerous situations.
Please know that you can email her for additional information and
reassurances from either of us. I'm always open to any questions or
comments from the group, which she assures me is a friendly and
supportive bunch.
This has been wordy enough, so gonna end now, but will update as often
as we can, and have hopes that Michaela will be back as a regular
soon, as she gets stronger.
Raven
astri
> Hi, this is Raven. My husband and I met EB on the Internet and fell
> in love with her spontaneity and wit. We are so glad she has you for
> a support group, as she has desperately needed to connect with others
> that are understanding. I personally am able to connect with her due
> to my own past issues, and sure wish I'd had a group like this for
> me.
>
> Sorry, I tend to get wordy, so you are always welcome to discard any
> irrelevant things that interject. Even I have little ones that like to
> interrupt :)
>
> EB has been working intensely on several issues, and is getting
> better. C is no longer a factor here, thank goodness, and although
> there is much more to do, things are looking up. Sometimes it's slow,
> sometimes fast, but safety is number one priority. This will take
> time, but slow is better in the long run.
how is it you are keeping her safe?
> We want to reassure all here that EB is safe with us, and she always
> has choices, although care is given to protect her.
what do you do to protect her?
what range of choices does she have?
> Just to let you know, although my personal experiences are not with
> multiples, I have experienced numerous others that have been
> destructive.
where and how did you experience them?
> I myself suffered severe abuse, with no therapy, and had
> to rescue myself. It was hard, still have residual issues, but have
> learned to comfort my little child inside.
congratulations
> Understanding EB has helped her find comfort, and she in turn helps
> me, although we each have different levels of need.
>
> Please feel free to ask questions about me, as I have taught myself
> how to communicate without personally internalizing, which used to be
> a huge problem for me. Hope you understand.
what motivated you to offer this level of effort and support to someone
who was practically a total stranger?
> Updates come when we are in a comfort zone, so sorry for any delays.
> Wish we could pour out more information, but we are being cautious due
> to past dangers caused by C reading this group, and we are now aware
> there may be others, so we have to hold back some.
>
> EB is really working hard, and so she needs lots of rest in between
> times. We encourage Internet and phone calls, although they must be at
> times when she feels safest and most comfortable.
>
> So glad she found us. We have uncovered some amazingly strong alters,
> in addition to the others, and we are building rapport with them all
> to strengthen her. Very interesting and amusing alters! :) We have
> fallen in love with them so fast!
>
> We understand that EB often moves quickly and was very destructive
> before she found us. Hence, we are aware that folks here may be
> concerned and for good reason, considering her destructive impulses
> and past tendencies to run to potentially dangerous situations.
yes
and please understand our hesitation here in believing all is as it is
being presented
> Please know that you can email her for additional information and
> reassurances from either of us. I'm always open to any questions or
> comments from the group, which she assures me is a friendly and
> supportive bunch.
do you have your own email?
maybe if you're going to post, you should do it from your own account?
> This has been wordy enough, so gonna end now, but will update as often
> as we can, and have hopes that Michaela will be back as a regular
> soon, as she gets stronger.
>
> Raven
k
-- astri
======================
to email send to astri
======================
at volcano dot org
======================
cometz
don't have much to say. astri said what is important. we don't have
much trust about this or you. EB has ones who desire connection with
very dangerous, manipulative and broken ppl. not much reassurance you
can offer, frankly.
would really like to hear from her friend j., who posted here a few
times when helping EB. would be far more convinced if we heard from
her that things are ok.
betsy
astri
> would really like to hear from her friend j., who posted here a few
> times when helping EB. would be far more convinced if we heard from
> her that things are ok.
yes
Juniper
<8f14718c-069d-448d...@1g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
cometz <come...@gmail.com> wrote:
> don't have much to say. astri said what is important. we don't have
> much trust about this or you. EB has ones who desire connection with
> very dangerous, manipulative and broken ppl. not much reassurance you
> can offer, frankly.
>
> would really like to hear from her friend j., who posted here a few
> times when helping EB. would be far more convinced if we heard from
> her that things are ok.
I have to second what betsy said. Reading the initial post made me feel
very uncomfortable. I need some kind of confirmation from someone I
know is on the side of EB's good.
Juniper
Shiyiya
Thirded. I'm quite sure there are those inside EB who are capable of
convincing them that they're somewhere safe whether they are or not.
jill
That is exactly what I wondered about. How do we know _who_ inside
EB is posting here? How do we know what they are perceiving and
stating here is true external reality? I am very concerned that this
is not a good situation and I am _very_ concerned that, once again,
some inside EB have chosen to find someone external to be in charge
of the body. This has never ended well in the past!
Rainbow Colors (Jill)
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing
we are becoming white light.
ji...@tuells.org
Emerging Butterfly
Hi again from EB. It was read here and I appreciate the safety
concerns very much.
I have done my share of running from the frying pan into the f*re --
Can see how this looks so similar to those situations, and one of the
only things that makes the truth of a situation clear and the healing
in it or the healing thereoff is time.
I will soon be on more regularly -- Being attacked by sources besides
C. made me fear for my safety and was much more than the h*spital
could quite assimilate or handle.
I feel lucky to have stumbled onto a safe place and know that with
time, realities become clearer.
It has always been important to me that destructive secrets are not
withheld and I will be honest with what is going on both internally
and externally. What else can assure anyone that what I claim is safe
truly is?
It is fully my choice to be here, basically an invite that I took
after talking with this couple at *length*.
As much as it is my choice to be here, I retain the choice to leave at
any time.
Thank you for the questions and concerns. Raven will be back to
address the questions that are asked directly of her.
As always, I appreciate the concern and hate to see good friends so
unsure about my well-being.
I can say only that it is much better than it was weeks past, and that
it was extremely clear that I was in over my head being on my own.
Hope to talk more soon, and on brighter topics once folks are assured
that I am indeed safe and living autonomously.
EB
astri
> I can say only that it is much better than it was weeks past, and
> that it was extremely clear that I was in over my head being on my
> own.
>
> Hope to talk more soon, and on brighter topics once folks are assured
> that I am indeed safe and living autonomously.
k
are you still in touch with j?
Juniper
<8cf490c8-e737-4c57...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote:
I need to speak frankly. Your writing in this post smells to me of
someone who is under a happy spell. It doesn't feel real. It's too
good to be true. It sounds like propaganda -- a happy lie to cover
reality.
Sorry, but you don't sound real. Who is writing this?
Juniper
cometz
have to say that what RC wrote resonates deeply with me about your
choices. every time you have chosen to cede the responsibility and
rights to your own body to others it has ended badly.
understand what you said earlier about not living alone. think then
that the choice should be about small group house situation. i have a
friend living in townhouse with two other men. is their home, but is
supported by staff who come in. living with ppl who are participants
in the things that caused so much damage to you doesn't make any sense
to me.
sorry. hope you keep writing. i will not say anymore about what i
think. know you have to make your own choices.
would really like to hear from your friend j. also uncomfortable that
the raven person uses your account to post here. is already
subterfuge. not good.
betsy
astri
> I need to speak frankly. Your writing in this post smells to me of
> someone who is under a happy spell. It doesn't feel real. It's too
> good to be true. It sounds like propaganda -- a happy lie to cover
> reality.
>
> Sorry, but you don't sound real. Who is writing this?
yes, that is a good question.
hope all these concerns don't send eb away. they just concerns for her
real safety. is so hard to tell anything online.
Shiyiya
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, Juniper wrote:
>
>> I need to speak frankly. Your writing in this post smells to me of
>> someone who is under a happy spell. It doesn't feel real. It's too
>> good to be true. It sounds like propaganda -- a happy lie to cover
>> reality.
>>
>> Sorry, but you don't sound real. Who is writing this?
>
> yes, that is a good question.
>
> hope all these concerns don't send eb away. they just concerns for her
> real safety. is so hard to tell anything online.
>
will also note the fact that they seem to not be seeing the question about j
which implies less than good things
astri
or are ignoring it
> which implies less than good things
sigh
Shiyiya
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, Shiyiya wrote:
>> astri wrote:
>>> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, Juniper wrote:
>>>
>>>> I need to speak frankly. Your writing in this post smells to me of
>>>> someone who is under a happy spell. It doesn't feel real. It's too
>>>> good to be true. It sounds like propaganda -- a happy lie to cover
>>>> reality.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, but you don't sound real. Who is writing this?
>>>
>>> yes, that is a good question.
>>>
>>> hope all these concerns don't send eb away. they just concerns for
>>> her real safety. is so hard to tell anything online.
>>>
>>
>> will also note the fact that they seem to not be seeing the question
>> about j
>
> or are ignoring it
>
>> which implies less than good things
>
> sigh
>
knowing them, seems more likely that they can't see it. but suppose will
see if they answer next time or ignore again.
cometz
yes. have seen that. EB blanks away when there are ideas that threaten
the pr*gram.
also, fwiw, think raven person was another one like s. who talked like
she knows better than everyone and talked here like we were all
anxious children she had to pacify. found it irritating at the least,
heinous bs at the worst.
also worrying that someone (inside or outside?) have convinced her
that the hsptl couldn't handle the c*lt doesn't make sense. understand
that hsptl may not be clued in on the reality of c*lts and may not
give relevant therapies, but certainly are capable of keeping ppl safe
from outside stuff. is convenient excuse. works for the pr*gram.
for me none of this sounds much different from s. and c. except
hopefully these ppl won't let her get gone.
is scary. is worrying.
betsy
confuzzled
umm how about others from your system post?
how about you tell us what j and dave think of this?
and what would leaving there look like, if you choose to do it?
Emerging Butterfly
> In article
> <8f14718c-069d-448d-b6cf-92b114818...@1g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
>
> cometz <comet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > don't have much to say. astri said what is important. we don't have
> > much trust about this or you. EB has ones who desire connection with
> > very dangerous, manipulative and broken ppl. not much reassurance you
> > can offer, frankly.
>
> > would really like to hear from her friend j., who posted here a few
> > times when helping EB. would be far more convinced if we heard from
> > her that things are ok.
>
> I have to second what betsy said. Reading the initial post made me feel
> very uncomfortable. I need some kind of confirmation from someone I
> know is on the side of EB's good.
>
> Juniper
wish i could give what you need, or that J. could. Maybe time will be
the tell, and hearing more from raven on this?
i know my past choices render anyone, including myself sometimes,
incapable of trusting those i choose to connect with, especially more
"instant" connections.
maybe sometimes a fluke happens that someone who is used to running
into and drawing danger finally falls into safety without even
realizing?
admittedly, my initial need to come here was "run run run", but the
"run" impulse was an important one because of very very real danger.
stuff i can't even describe.
Still talk with J, but as has been said, she understandably shares the
concerns of the group. frankly, i wouldn't expect otherwise from those
who know my, uh, stunning track record of finding broken and ab*sive
people.
thanks for your concern.
Emerging Butterfly
> Juniper wrote:
> > In article
> > <8f14718c-069d-448d-b6cf-92b114818...@1g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >> don't have much to say. astri said what is important. we don't have
> >> much trust about this or you. EB has ones who desire connection with
> >> very dangerous, manipulative and broken ppl. not much reassurance you
> >> can offer, frankly.
>
> >> would really like to hear from her friend j., who posted here a few
> >> times when helping EB. would be far more convinced if we heard from
> >> her that things are ok.
>
> > I have to second what betsy said. Reading the initial post made me feel
> > very uncomfortable. I need some kind of confirmation from someone I
> > know is on the side of EB's good.
>
> > Juniper
>
> Thirded. I'm quite sure there are those inside EB who are capable of
> convincing them that they're somewhere safe whether they are or not.
hi Shi. :)
Perhaps so. Is part of reason it is so important that i am able to
communicate here and with others and process the whole situation and
decision. you know me and the lil ones well enough to know our fun
justifications, such as:
"Well, they have jobs and can talk, so surely they are safe."
However, the more we all get to know these folks, the less those alarm
bells even start to sound.
i am doing more internal work than i've done in the past and feel
safe.
feel free to ask any questions.
Emerging Butterfly
> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Dec 28, 12:53 am, Emerging Butterfly
> > <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
yes, i understand that feeling. one thing that happens noticeably when
someone comes into more safety and good relationships, i think, is a
bit of a "happy spell" -- the realities of course are deeper and truer
and the post was brief and trying to reassure.
in any situation, there are hard realities and there is no perfection
-- anywhere, including here.
conflicts have been addressed and worked through, and i'm keeping the
apt. while i make the final decision whether to stay here or go back
to the apt.
i wish i could describe the horror of the C. situation and the
pr*gramming there and the back-up that existed to k*ll me. :(
i can't describe it, and the safety now is overwhelming because i was
finally able to uncover the unsafe places and somehow excise their
power in my mind and have back-up if anyone besides her was to att*ck
me. raven understands this situation and i feel....protected.
yeah, i'm scared sometimes. like, am i being brainwashed into
believing this is good because of childhood longings i've described
for a perfect family to take care of me?
is this too good to be true?
and yet. and yet.
every morning i wake up and, well, it's a new day with new fun and new
conflicts and new issues. things are resolved, anger is expressed
safely, no happy haze here, open anger and conflict, even with the
alters.
who is writing this, you ask.
i don't know.
things feel so different.
this is a different place, different emotions, things i've never
experienced. it is as if i am not the same somehow....yet not in a
negative way.
i'm learning how to break out of tr*nces here. it would be ironic to
be living in a situation learning safety and tr*nce breaking whilst
being in a tr*nce in the place.
my main concerns are some lack of communication here recently, where i
find clarity often, and that i can't disclose all the facts just yet
of just why i came here.
well, i can say why i came here, and the reasons were dangerous, but i
can't describe what's transpired while i'm here.
some horror has been uncovered that lets me know and lets my
psychiatrist know that i am unsafe alone.
things were happening while i thought i was sleeping.
i desperately needed a place with others who could see the reality and
help me face it and become safer.
it just doesn't sound right, does it? something isn't clicking right
while i'm writing.
i mean, i know you're supposed to find this in therapy, from
friendships....not necessarily from immersion in a new situation with
people that i develop instant rapport with.
yet the lack of safety at home, the overwhelm others were
experiencing, a short stay in the h*spital that resolved nothing.....
i needed more care and i knew it. these guys give it and i give in
return.
let's keep talking. i need to know for sure that i'm talking from a
clear mind, which i think i am learning here, but my vulnerabilities
are very dangerous and i could easily fall into danger without even
suspecting.
but i don't see it here.
i do see the "too good to be true".....
umm. i ran out of words and thoughts. i'm confused. will keep talking.
will get there.
Emerging Butterfly
> On Dec 28, 10:31 pm, Emerging Butterfly
>
>
>
> <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 28, 12:53 am, Emerging Butterfly
>
> > <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
the level of support i need supercedes what even the small group house
situation could provide. i was so profoundly unsafe that i needed a
bit more connection with someone who understands ra.
my body is my responsibility, although i have help here to keep those
things more in order.
this is not the same things that caused damage to me. they induced
tr*nces; these people help break them.
they encouraged dependence; these guys encourage autonomy.
i am here for safety, healing, and yes, fun.
*sighs*
Will keep writing. have to keep writing and reading responses. must
figure out what is true and what is not. must find out who i am and
who i am not.
seems that is happening here.
seems that delusions have felt real to me in the past. i'm vulnerable.
i'm wounded. i walked into a new situation.
every other new situation i talked about that i moved into and such
turned out horribly.
how then can folks not be concerned?
if i wasn't concerned as well, this would be utterly delusional. i am
retaining my apt. and making an informed decision, although
psychiatrist has openly stated that if i stay here and can have some
safety and structure, she will feel much better about my state of
mind.
i lost control. i am hopefully regaining it here.
if not, this is how i find out -- dialogue, honest questions,
feelings, reactions.
>
> sorry. hope you keep writing. i will not say anymore about what i
> think. know you have to make your own choices.
yes. that is what i am trying to learn, to retain my own frame of mind
while still hearing the strong opinions of others.
no need to apologize for stating an opinion.
>
> would really like to hear from your friend j. also uncomfortable that
> the raven person uses your account to post here. is already
> subterfuge. not good.
her posting from my account was accidental. sorry about that. was
meant as introduction and forgot to sign out and sign her in. in
future, she will write from her own account.
>
> betsy
Emerging Butterfly
> On Mon, 28 Dec 2009, Juniper wrote:
> > I need to speak frankly. Your writing in this post smells to me of
> > someone who is under a happy spell. It doesn't feel real. It's too
> > good to be true. It sounds like propaganda -- a happy lie to cover
> > reality.
>
> > Sorry, but you don't sound real. Who is writing this?
>
> yes, that is a good question.
>
> hope all these concerns don't send eb away. they just concerns for her
> real safety. is so hard to tell anything online.
precisely right.
not feeling sent away.
am knowing of some things that i am not sharing of some of the really
bad stuff that was happening that i couldn't control at home after the
vicious C. attack.
could not stay safe.
h*spital could not keep safe.
here am safe.
Shiyiya
There is conflict expressed and resolved, not ignored?
Emerging Butterfly
understood. J. shares your concerns, of course.
i don't know what else to say. it may be that we are at an impasse as
to whether or not this is a good situation for me. maybe best thing is
to keep participating in group and let people see who i am here and
what the changes might look like?
surface of situation looks horrifying, i know.
deeper reality is different.
J. will never, as far as i know, be okay with this type of situation
due to r*ligious convictions.
however, J. also admitted sense of overwhelm with the depth of the
horror emerging in my life, the depth of my needs.
no one knew what to do.
i didn't know what to do.
so i'm here and will learn with time what is good and what is not.
every situation has good and bad.
one main concern is lack of privacy, which makes it hard to gather my
own thoughts. this, however, is because of safety concerns. can't
leave someone in danger. can't leave someone who, like me lately, goes
immediately and without warning into strong strong sui. tr*nces and
can't stop them.
so they encourage me to stay with them, to keep talking. but.....i do
long for the freedom/privacy feeling *and* the feeling of family.
i'm assured that it comes together in the end. i will have safe places
to go, support, t., and time to myself once i'm safe again.
hard, though, to feel like have to disclose all going on in mind, to
be redirected in such an intimate way as having thoughts monitored.
however, like i said, hasn't been safety without folks monitoring that
closely because of depth of tr*nces induced by recent c*lt attack.
also, am not forced or anything to say all about past. am encouraged
to speak as ready to about those scary things. main concern is safety
at this point because of deep deep pr*grams that can take over
immediately and be extremely dangerous.
don't know if am making sense quite yet. i need people here to see,
more than this situation even, the direness of the situation before in
my statements, although they do not tell all.
am being cautious about saying what happened. can say it seems am
getting help.
astri
> Still talk with J, but as has been said, she understandably shares
> the concerns of the group. frankly, i wouldn't expect otherwise from
> those who know my, uh, stunning track record of finding broken and
> ab*sive people.
why can't j meet them?
Emerging Butterfly
h*spital can't keep safety with stuff i was doing or keep me long-
term. reality is that they keep people only for short time and cannot
work with me on depr*gramming.
as to raven.....*sighs*
she isn't a C. or a Steven. she helped me to see through the reality
of tr*nces they induce, in fact.
she already regrets her form of addressing the group and, knowing her
some, although i certainly can't claim intimate knowledge after 17
days, i find her to be helpful and perceptive beyond belief.
i sometimes find this to be an intrusive situation. i sometimes read
her as saying "i am better than you and stronger than you", but know
also that i tend to read things into what people say and always check
it out with her.
umm. i like her. i like being with her. i like talking with her.
she understands me on a level that few have, besides this group,
frankly.
yes, i blank things out and get pr*grammed. so i'm grateful for
concern and honest feedback.
regrets that there is nothing i can say to undo this concern.
gladness that folks care.
Emerging Butterfly
<nospamsometimesknownas...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > On Dec 28, 12:53 am, Emerging Butterfly
> > <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
need to post when i seem stable?
they want to help when i don't?
> how about you tell us what j and dave think of this?
dave has essentially disappeared. J. is concerned, knowing very little
of actual situation, just believing that any such situation is wrong.
> and what would leaving there look like, if you choose to do it?
don't know. psych. said it's here or group home.
i would go back to apartment, of course, and replace psychiatrist.
if need to leave, can arrange logistics easily.
if i leave, will not be okay. profoundly not okay.
or maybe i will?
spoilered for hard stuff with si.
*****
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things got worse before i left in a way that i knew i needed immediate
safety beyond what i could describe. didn't know quite why.
these guys tell me that in my sleep, i try to k*ll myself by choking
and need to be stopped. i am sound asleep, think i had good night, and
am informed that i am making efforts on own life.
have seen self do it even when i seem lucid.
*strong* sui. pr*gramming induced by recent c*lt stuff.
had to get away had to get safe had to get with people who see what i
do when i go into tr*nce. they state i would clearly be d*ad by now
without intervention.
is not okay what happened recently.
is not describable but now a voice creeps in that minimizes it all and
says it can't possibly be that bad.
i see the scars sometimes from what i do when in tr*nce. i see that it
has all gotten worse but is getting better while here. am learning to
stop tr*nce.
can also say clearly now while writing post and sitting with these
guys that i do not want to leave. clearly clearly don't want to leave
now. feel like need this.
know that with time safety increases; i'm already learning to field
and block some of the recent pr*gramming.
guys, it got really bad.
i am being kept safe and being taught to detr*nce.
and now.....i just feel confused. bereft. lost. wrong. wrong wrong
wrong.
i don't know what to do. part of me pushes to go home, but if i'm that
unsafe, how? J. can't monitor at all times; these guys can between two
of them.
group home?
i've done that and it never worked because of zero understanding of
the ra stuff and expectation to just "be responsible" when was little
little.
i feel wrong now.
about it all.
and they didn't want me to come here unless i was michaela and i'm
switching and i don't know what to do now.
need clarity. help.
astri
> the level of support i need supercedes what even the small group
> house situation could provide. i was so profoundly unsafe that i
> needed a bit more connection with someone who understands ra.
>
> my body is my responsibility, although i have help here to keep those
> things more in order.
how do they help you do that?
> this is not the same things that caused damage to me. they induced
> tr*nces; these people help break them.
how do they do that?
> they encouraged dependence; these guys encourage autonomy.
> i am here for safety, healing, and yes, fun.
hope so
> *sighs*
> Will keep writing. have to keep writing and reading responses. must
> figure out what is true and what is not. must find out who i am and
> who i am not.
good
> seems that is happening here. seems that delusions have felt real to
> me in the past. i'm vulnerable. i'm wounded. i walked into a new
> situation. every other new situation i talked about that i moved into
> and such turned out horribly. how then can folks not be concerned?
exactly
> if i wasn't concerned as well, this would be utterly delusional. i am
> retaining my apt. and making an informed decision, although
> psychiatrist has openly stated that if i stay here and can have some
> safety and structure, she will feel much better about my state of
> mind.
at least you're still seeing your psychiatrist
no hope of going back to the t too?
> i lost control. i am hopefully regaining it here.
> if not, this is how i find out -- dialogue, honest questions,
> feelings, reactions.
k
astri
>>
>> hope all these concerns don't send eb away. they just concerns for
>> her real safety. is so hard to tell anything online.
>
> precisely right.
> not feeling sent away.
good
> am knowing of some things that i am not sharing of some of the really
> bad stuff that was happening that i couldn't control at home after
> the vicious C. attack.
> could not stay safe.
that isn't the question at all
think we all believe that
> h*spital could not keep safe.
> here am safe.
this is what we hope
Emerging Butterfly
yup. we've had our conflicts, i've expressed opinions and emotions,
they have.....no sugar-coating.
Shiyiya
That's promising at least then. Sigh.
astri
> understood. J. shares your concerns, of course.
> i don't know what else to say. it may be that we are at an impasse as
> to whether or not this is a good situation for me. maybe best thing
> is to keep participating in group and let people see who i am here
> and what the changes might look like?
please keep talking
> surface of situation looks horrifying, i know.
> deeper reality is different.
hope so
> J. will never, as far as i know, be okay with this type of situation
> due to r*ligious convictions.
why?
> however, J. also admitted sense of overwhelm with the depth of the
> horror emerging in my life, the depth of my needs.
> no one knew what to do.
> i didn't know what to do.
:(
> so i'm here and will learn with time what is good and what is not.
> every situation has good and bad.
true
> one main concern is lack of privacy, which makes it hard to gather my
> own thoughts. this, however, is because of safety concerns. can't
> leave someone in danger. can't leave someone who, like me lately,
> goes immediately and without warning into strong strong sui. tr*nces
> and can't stop them.
how frequently is this happening?
should track it
note when it does
would hope and expect to see the frequency decreasing if this is really
what you are saying and hoping it is
> so they encourage me to stay with them, to keep talking. but.....i do
> long for the freedom/privacy feeling *and* the feeling of family. i'm
> assured that it comes together in the end. i will have safe places to
> go, support, t., and time to myself once i'm safe again.
would hope so
> hard, though, to feel like have to disclose all going on in mind, to
> be redirected in such an intimate way as having thoughts monitored.
> however, like i said, hasn't been safety without folks monitoring
> that closely because of depth of tr*nces induced by recent c*lt
> attack.
>
> also, am not forced or anything to say all about past. am encouraged
> to speak as ready to about those scary things. main concern is safety
> at this point because of deep deep pr*grams that can take over
> immediately and be extremely dangerous.
>
> don't know if am making sense quite yet. i need people here to see,
> more than this situation even, the direness of the situation before
> in my statements, although they do not tell all.
this isn't about the situation before
we believe that
this is about the situation now and not being able to know yet that it
is as safe as you say it is
> am being cautious about saying what happened. can say it seems am
> getting help.
k
Emerging Butterfly
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > Still talk with J, but as has been said, she understandably shares
> > the concerns of the group. frankly, i wouldn't expect otherwise from
> > those who know my, uh, stunning track record of finding broken and
> > ab*sive people.
>
> why can't j meet them?
she isn't willing to meet anyone that is in "the lifestyle", even
though there are so many variations on that and it can be a place of
safety.
she will not understand this and refuses to speak with them.
astri
> need to post when i seem stable?
or just allowed to post only when you seem stable?
> they want to help when i don't?
who wants to help when you don't what?
> dave has essentially disappeared. J. is concerned, knowing very
> little of actual situation, just believing that any such situation is
> wrong.
why?
what does she believe is wrong about it?
:(
> have seen self do it even when i seem lucid.
> *strong* sui. pr*gramming induced by recent c*lt stuff.
> had to get away had to get safe had to get with people who see what i
> do when i go into tr*nce. they state i would clearly be d*ad by now
> without intervention.
> is not okay what happened recently.
no
> is not describable but now a voice creeps in that minimizes it all
> and says it can't possibly be that bad.
that voice minimizes a lot
> i see the scars sometimes from what i do when in tr*nce. i see that
> it has all gotten worse but is getting better while here. am learning
> to stop tr*nce.
k
> can also say clearly now while writing post and sitting with these
> guys that i do not want to leave. clearly clearly don't want to leave
> now. feel like need this.
>
> know that with time safety increases; i'm already learning to field
> and block some of the recent pr*gramming.
>
> guys, it got really bad.
> i am being kept safe and being taught to detr*nce.
how?
how do they know this stuff?
> and now.....i just feel confused. bereft. lost. wrong. wrong wrong
> wrong.
about what?
> i don't know what to do. part of me pushes to go home, but if i'm
> that unsafe, how? J. can't monitor at all times; these guys can
> between two of them.
>
> group home?
> i've done that and it never worked because of zero understanding of
> the ra stuff and expectation to just "be responsible" when was little
> little.
typical :P
> i feel wrong now.
> about it all.
about what?
> and they didn't want me to come here unless i was michaela and i'm
> switching and i don't know what to do now.
> need clarity. help.
need to all talk to each other and not do anything impulsively
astri
> On Jan 1, 9:10 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> Still talk with J, but as has been said, she understandably shares
>>> the concerns of the group. frankly, i wouldn't expect otherwise from
>>> those who know my, uh, stunning track record of finding broken and
>>> ab*sive people.
>>
>> why can't j meet them?
>
> she isn't willing to meet anyone that is in "the lifestyle", even
> though there are so many variations on that and it can be a place of
> safety.
> she will not understand this and refuses to speak with them.
what part of the lifestyle are they in?
Shiyiya
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>> On Jan 1, 9:10 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>>> Still talk with J, but as has been said, she understandably shares
>>>> the concerns of the group. frankly, i wouldn't expect otherwise from
>>>> those who know my, uh, stunning track record of finding broken and
>>>> ab*sive people.
>>>
>>> why can't j meet them?
>>
>> she isn't willing to meet anyone that is in "the lifestyle", even
>> though there are so many variations on that and it can be a place of
>> safety.
>> she will not understand this and refuses to speak with them.
>
> what part of the lifestyle are they in?
>
and how does it relate to their professed help for you? I'm going to
assume it's different from s trying to b*at sui out :P
Emerging Butterfly
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > understood. J. shares your concerns, of course.
> > i don't know what else to say. it may be that we are at an impasse as
> > to whether or not this is a good situation for me. maybe best thing
> > is to keep participating in group and let people see who i am here
> > and what the changes might look like?
>
> please keep talking
definitely will.
these guys just want to make sure that i'm safe and that "thought
processes start to heal".....
i think that through talking and conversing here, they do heal, both
through talking out the good and the bad.
Raven just fears I'll lose proper perspective....
that the group will convince me to do something different than what
i've stated i want as far as being here rather than the h*spital or
some such place.
seeing as i don't know what i want, this is hard. :/
i am afraid of the h*spital or group home setting, but also am afraid
that this could be the wrong choice -- it's easy for me to agree with
whomever i'm talking with.
i think being here provides more safety than h*spital and i, well, i
like it here!
i've been scared my whole life that it's wrong to like and need what i
like and need.
this time i state it with clarity. this is what i like and need at
this time, and i wish to be conversed with honestly about concerns but
not to have a sense of dread given to me about a situation that is not
yet known.
is that fair?
>
> > surface of situation looks horrifying, i know.
> > deeper reality is different.
>
> hope so
>
> > J. will never, as far as i know, be okay with this type of situation
> > due to r*ligious convictions.
>
> why?
anything "lifestyle" is "sinful"
i still love her deeply and hope to reconnect, but she cannot give
safety i need and i frankly can't be good friend if she's constantly
afraid i'll d*e, as she's rightfully been.
>
> > however, J. also admitted sense of overwhelm with the depth of the
> > horror emergingin my life, the depth of my needs.
> > no one knew what to do.
> > i didn't know what to do.
>
> :(
>
> > so i'm here and will learn with time what is good and what is not.
> > every situation has good and bad.
>
> true
>
> > one main concern is lack of privacy, which makes it hard to gather my
> > own thoughts. this, however, is because of safety concerns. can't
> > leave someone in danger. can't leave someone who, like me lately,
> > goes immediately and without warning into strong strong sui. tr*nces
> > and can't stop them.
>
> how frequently is this happening?
> should track it
> note when it does
it's happening at least daily, several times -- i can circumvent the
trance about 1/5 or so more of the time when i arrived. about
constantly nightly this happens and what's most scary is i don't know
it and cannot be awakened -- i think i've had a good night's sleep and
hear reports of constant struggle to keep hand from str*ngling. these
guys are putting in much work for just about strangers, you must
admit, to have to be on constant alert. fear that at some point will
become too much or will be "abandoned". hasn't happened yet, but don't
know future. raven claims that alters are already getting stronger, so
it keeps improving. but nights and closing eyes are still constant
danger. :(
we are working to track things and note what's happening.
>
> would hope and expect to see the frequency decreasing if this is really
> what you are saying and hoping it is
it is decreasing. in fact, i'm learning to say "no" to scary images
and "pushes/cues/pr*grams" -- this is profound learning for me.
profound.
>
> > so they encourage me to stay with them, to keep talking. but.....i do
> > long for the freedom/privacy feeling *and* the feeling of family. i'm
> > assured that it comes together in the end. i will have safe places to
> > go, support, t., and time to myself once i'm safe again.
>
> would hope so
>
> > hard, though, to feel like have to disclose all going on in mind, to
> > be redirected in such an intimate way as having thoughts monitored.
> > however, like i said, hasn't been safety without folks monitoring
> > that closely because of depth of tr*nces induced by recent c*lt
> > attack.
>
> > also, am not forced or anything to say all about past. am encouraged
> > to speak as ready to about those scary things. main concern is safety
> > at this point because of deep deep pr*grams that can take over
> > immediately and be extremely dangerous.
>
> > don't know if am making sense quite yet. i need people here to see,
> > more than this situation even, the direness of the situation before
> > in my statements, although they do not tell all.
>
> this isn't about the situation before
> we believe that
thanks. it just....so many layers. so much horror. so much out of
control deeper layers of pr*gramming and recent reinforcement of same.
is so terrifying as to be beyond belief.
i remember the sobbing at the h*spital this last time, the vomiting,
the seeming "realization" -- "I am going to d*e here" --
i had to get more help. i don't even know how i found this. i
shouldn't have found something so helpful, probability wise. i should
have run to a dangerous situation in my state of mind. i should never
have made it to someone who knew profoundly how to help.
one of those times i have to shrug and figure something in the
universe must be for my healing and life.
that or i am again utterly deluded and lucky to be alive. :/
cometz
don't mean for you to feel wrong wrong. as astri said think everyone
completely believes the evl that was happening with s. and c. and all
the history you are struggling thru. i have no doubt or disbelief at
all. my concerns are of your collective capacity to blot out your own
discrimination and intelligence in order to cede your emotions and
body over to others.
the fact that you seem to be avoiding j., or she you, is disturbing.
the fact that you are only referencing your psychiatrist and not your
thpst is very disturbing.
i guess for me personally, i'm kind of resigned to your need to repeat
this stuff in the face of past dangerous contacts, the fact that you
(the many of you) are very determined to deny and protect the old
programs and the reality that i can't realistically do anything to
help you. and i think i'm currently kind of burned out on this. not
forever, just a realization that i need to stop trying in the face of
sure failure. i know from my history that i can only do what i can do,
for better or worse, until i finally learn deep inside how to begin
shifting my perceptions and responses. i sort of think you are still
at a point where the past is flooding you and you are running and
running, trying to find safety. only no one can truly give you safety.
a good tpst can help you learn how to gain the skills you need to
create your own safety. safety that you are in charge of, not other
ppl.
i am hoping you will reach out to j. and see her. seeing her isn't the
same as asking her to take care of you. if you keep finding excuses to
keep her at bay then i would take that as a giant red flag for
youselves. i am most especially hoping you get back to tpst. wondering
whether some of the running and danger were also connected to the
fears associated with having to trust someone with a different
perspective on what is possible. having to try to look at all of it
and get real with it all may have contributed to the complexities of
the time of year, the programs, the contact with c. and s. but
shutting out your t isn't going to fix anything.
i guess what i believe is that for now you are going to do what the
programs tell you is good until you get so tired of it all that you
begin to dedicate your energies to healing. i have no power against
that stuff.
betsy
Emerging Butterfly
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > need to post when i seem stable?
>
> or just allowed to post only when you seem stable?
it seemed that way but now that we've talked it out, they're fine with
me posting as long as i'm safe.
>
> > they want to help when i don't?
>
> who wants to help when you don't what?
the couple wants to be available to get me out of unstable places
before they go further. inititally, when i suggested using the group
to help with some of that, they were fearful.
at this point, i have assured them that it is very useful for me to
post here and i will tell them immediately if a sui. impulse occurs.
>
> > dave has essentially disappeared. J. is concerned, knowing very
> > little of actual situation, just believing that any such situation is
> > wrong.
>
> why?
>
> what does she believe is wrong about it?
again, it's just a r*ligious thing. we are living as a family and we
are not J*hovah's W*tnesses and some of our "fun" is labeled wrong.
*sighs*
depth.
so much.
didn't realize c*lt would track me for this long. :(
had to get safe.
>
> > is not describable but now a voice creeps in that minimizes it all
> > and says it can't possibly be that bad.
>
> that voice minimizes a lot
you think? :P
that is something these guys work to interrupt, seeing it as
dangerous, as it is. i am talked with when i minimize but am also told
of the dangers of where i could be headed. it does seem true that
minimization begets more pr*gramming because i'm unaware and
essentially agreeing with initial pr*gramming, bringing all of it
back. :(
>
> > i see the scars sometimes from what i do when in tr*nce. i see that
> > it has all gotten worse but is getting better while here. am learning
> > to stop tr*nce.
>
> k
>
> > can also say clearly now while writing post and sitting with these
> > guys that i do not want to leave. clearly clearly don't want to leave
> > now. feel like need this.
>
> > know that with time safety increases; i'm already learning to field
> > and block some of the recent pr*gramming.
>
> > guys, it got really bad.
> > i am being kept safe and being taught to detr*nce.
>
> how?
>
> how do they know this stuff?
heh. h*ll if i know how she knows. she learned it long ago, reading
and learning to, as she says it, "fix myself".
the way it's done is something akin to realizing the image (in past it
was repressed and things were acted out before i knew what was
happening) -- so it's minimizing the suppression of the images,
allowing myself to see them and recognize them as pr*gramming, and
then allowing myself to validate that it's there and say "no" to it. I
also sometimes write down the images because they carry information.
they are essentially cues the c*lt used. she knows from very profound
and unfortunate experience that i'm sure i'll never understand the
half of. :(
also, the alters are being talked with and taught individually and
told that they have a choice now. we are learning basic life skills
from Raven that we've mentioned here that we desperately needed, and
the alters are learning to understand what a "push" or "cue" is and
say no to it.
is easier said than done but being validated may be biggest piece of
healing. however, she carries knowledge on getting past it. *shrugs*
some people are given wisdom somehow in the face of untold terror, as
so many know here.
she is one of those souls who just knows things, knows them
intuitively and profoundly. in that way, we connect.
>
> > and now.....i just feel confused. bereft. lost. wrong. wrong wrong
> > wrong.
>
> about what?
i was getting into my guilt fear dread "i'm wrong i shouldn't say this
it isn't true i'm ev*l to want this" pr*gramming.
>
> > i don't know what to do. part of me pushes to go home, but if i'm
> > that unsafe, how? J. can't monitor at all times; these guys can
> > between two of them.
>
> > group home?
> > i've done that and it never worked because of zero understanding of
> > the ra stuff and expectation to just "be responsible" when was little
> > little.
>
> typical :P
thanks for understanding why this doesn't seem like such ideal option.
it helps much.
so weary sometimes when told to do things that i know will psychically
push me to d*stroy myself.
i've done this in group settings, subverted my terror to fit in and
minimized the personalities.
cannot do that anymore.
>
> > i feel wrong now.
> > about it all.
>
> about what?
i think sometimes when people express skepticism, i just
go.....somewhere deep where i am wrong and bad.
i want to reclaim my mind and choices.
just scary scary when people say i don't sound like me and i suddenly
wonder if i'm not and how dire the situation might be.
can lose perspective quickly.
>
> > and they didn't want me to come here unless i was michaela and i'm
> > switching and i don't know what to do now.
> > need clarity. help.
>
> need to all talk to each other and not do anything impulsively
absolutely.
Emerging Butterfly
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 9:10 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> >>> Still talk with J, but as has been said, she understandably shares
> >>> the concerns of the group. frankly, i wouldn't expect otherwise from
> >>> those who know my, uh, stunning track record of finding broken and
> >>> ab*sive people.
>
> >> why can't j meet them?
>
> > she isn't willing to meet anyone that is in "the lifestyle", even
> > though there are so many variations on that and it can be a place of
> > safety.
> > she will not understand this and refuses to speak with them.
>
> what part of the lifestyle are they in?
don't know how to explain it really. i will say how it feels as that
is how i connect sometimes and i don't know how to say concretely.
it is family -- the three of us. we all have our own disabilities and
actually help each other, and in that way it is much like the group
setting that folks might push for --
we challenge each other and yeah, there is non-vanilla stuff that is
all consensual. (we are going very slowly with that, taking all alters
into account. so different from before when i immersed myself in
something when some screamed in terror.)
the man gives structure, although to be honest, all three of us are
pretty opinionated and have dominant sides and those are not
subverted. it's different from standard expectations maybe....on a
daily basis, we look like a family struggling together and having fun.
is not all dark like i have gotten into before.
this "lifestyle" includes going to movies, getting ice cream, holding
hands when struggling, and some other stuff that, frankly, a usenet
group doesn't need the details of. :)
astri
> On Jan 1, 9:50 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> please keep talking
>
> definitely will.
> these guys just want to make sure that i'm safe and that "thought
> processes start to heal".....
how will they know that?
how will you know that?
> i think that through talking and conversing here, they do heal, both
> through talking out the good and the bad.
> Raven just fears I'll lose proper perspective....
>
> that the group will convince me to do something different than what
> i've stated i want as far as being here rather than the h*spital or
> some such place.
>
> seeing as i don't know what i want, this is hard. :/
>
> i am afraid of the h*spital or group home setting, but also am afraid
> that this could be the wrong choice -- it's easy for me to agree with
> whomever i'm talking with.
>
> i think being here provides more safety than h*spital and i, well, i
> like it here!
> i've been scared my whole life that it's wrong to like and need what i
> like and need.
>
> this time i state it with clarity. this is what i like and need at
> this time, and i wish to be conversed with honestly about concerns but
> not to have a sense of dread given to me about a situation that is not
> yet known.
>
> is that fair?
yes, is fair
just keep talking here
is important
>>> surface of situation looks horrifying, i know.
>>> deeper reality is different.
>>
>> hope so
>>
>>> J. will never, as far as i know, be okay with this type of situation
>>> due to r*ligious convictions.
>>
>> why?
>
> anything "lifestyle" is "sinful"
sigh
> i still love her deeply and hope to reconnect, but she cannot give
> safety i need and i frankly can't be good friend if she's constantly
> afraid i'll d*e, as she's rightfully been.
:/
>>> one main concern is lack of privacy, which makes it hard to gather
>>> my own thoughts. this, however, is because of safety concerns.
>>> can't leave someone in danger. can't leave someone who, like me
>>> lately, goes immediately and without warning into strong strong
>>> sui. tr*nces and can't stop them.
>>
>> how frequently is this happening?
>> should track it
>> note when it does
>
> it's happening at least daily, several times -- i can circumvent the
> trance about 1/5 or so more of the time when i arrived. about
> constantly nightly this happens and what's most scary is i don't know
> it and cannot be awakened -- i think i've had a good night's sleep
> and hear reports of constant struggle to keep hand from str*ngling.
> these guys are putting in much work for just about strangers, you
> must admit, to have to be on constant alert. fear that at some point
> will become too much or will be "abandoned". hasn't happened yet, but
> don't know future.
what is their motivation to do this? what are they getting from it?
that's part of the wierd piece of this situation.
> raven claims that alters are already getting
> stronger, so it keeps improving. but nights and closing eyes are
> still constant danger. :(
>
> we are working to track things and note what's happening.
k
>> would hope and expect to see the frequency decreasing if this is
>> really what you are saying and hoping it is
>
> it is decreasing. in fact, i'm learning to say "no" to scary images
> and "pushes/cues/pr*grams" -- this is profound learning for me.
> profound.
k
>>> don't know if am making sense quite yet. i need people here to see,
>>> more than this situation even, the direness of the situation before
>>> in my statements, although they do not tell all.
>>
>> this isn't about the situation before
>> we believe that
>
> thanks. it just....so many layers. so much horror. so much out of
> control deeper layers of pr*gramming and recent reinforcement of same.
> is so terrifying as to be beyond belief.
understandable
> i remember the sobbing at the h*spital this last time, the vomiting,
> the seeming "realization" -- "I am going to d*e here" --
> i had to get more help. i don't even know how i found this. i
> shouldn't have found something so helpful, probability wise. i should
> have run to a dangerous situation in my state of mind. i should never
> have made it to someone who knew profoundly how to help.
how did they really know how to do this? what do they get from it? why
are they doing it? what motivates them?
> one of those times i have to shrug and figure something in the
> universe must be for my healing and life.
>
> that or i am again utterly deluded and lucky to be alive. :/
dunno
(sarcastic brat part of me wants to say: or both)
astri
> On Jan 1, 10:03 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> need to post when i seem stable?
>>
>> or just allowed to post only when you seem stable?
>
> it seemed that way but now that we've talked it out, they're fine
> with me posting as long as i'm safe.
bet they're reading everything, tho
>>> they want to help when i don't?
>>
>> who wants to help when you don't what?
>
> the couple wants to be available to get me out of unstable places
> before they go further. inititally, when i suggested using the group
> to help with some of that, they were fearful.
k
> at this point, i have assured them that it is very useful for me to
> post here and i will tell them immediately if a sui. impulse occurs.
k
>>> dave has essentially disappeared. J. is concerned, knowing very
>>> little of actual situation, just believing that any such situation
>>> is wrong.
>>
>> why?
>>
>> what does she believe is wrong about it?
>
> again, it's just a r*ligious thing. we are living as a family and we
> are not J*hovah's W*tnesses and some of our "fun" is labeled wrong.
is she willing to be your friend still?
is your fun more of the d/s stuff or discpln?
maybe you were reporting
> had to get safe.
true
>>> is not describable but now a voice creeps in that minimizes it all
>>> and says it can't possibly be that bad.
>>
>> that voice minimizes a lot
>
> you think? :P
> that is something these guys work to interrupt, seeing it as
> dangerous, as it is. i am talked with when i minimize but am also told
> of the dangers of where i could be headed. it does seem true that
> minimization begets more pr*gramming because i'm unaware and
> essentially agreeing with initial pr*gramming, bringing all of it
> back. :(
sigh
>>> i am being kept safe and being taught to detr*nce.
>>
>> how?
>>
>> how do they know this stuff?
>
> heh. h*ll if i know how she knows. she learned it long ago, reading
> and learning to, as she says it, "fix myself".
> the way it's done is something akin to realizing the image (in past
> it was repressed and things were acted out before i knew what was
> happening) -- so it's minimizing the suppression of the images,
> allowing myself to see them and recognize them as pr*gramming, and
> then allowing myself to validate that it's there and say "no" to it.
> I also sometimes write down the images because they carry
> information. they are essentially cues the c*lt used. she knows from
> very profound and unfortunate experience that i'm sure i'll never
> understand the half of. :(
k
> also, the alters are being talked with and taught individually and
> told that they have a choice now. we are learning basic life skills
> from Raven that we've mentioned here that we desperately needed, and
> the alters are learning to understand what a "push" or "cue" is and
> say no to it.
k
> is easier said than done but being validated may be biggest piece of
> healing. however, she carries knowledge on getting past it. *shrugs*
> some people are given wisdom somehow in the face of untold terror, as
> so many know here.
>
> she is one of those souls who just knows things, knows them
> intuitively and profoundly. in that way, we connect.
>
>>> and now.....i just feel confused. bereft. lost. wrong. wrong wrong
>>> wrong.
>>
>> about what?
>
> i was getting into my guilt fear dread "i'm wrong i shouldn't say this
> it isn't true i'm ev*l to want this" pr*gramming.
:/
>>> group home?
>>> i've done that and it never worked because of zero understanding of
>>> the ra stuff and expectation to just "be responsible" when was little
>>> little.
>>
>> typical :P
>
> thanks for understanding why this doesn't seem like such ideal option.
> it helps much.
yw
> so weary sometimes when told to do things that i know will psychically
> push me to d*stroy myself.
> i've done this in group settings, subverted my terror to fit in and
> minimized the personalities.
> cannot do that anymore.
k
>>> i feel wrong now.
>>> about it all.
>>
>> about what?
>
> i think sometimes when people express skepticism, i just
> go.....somewhere deep where i am wrong and bad.
isn't what is meant
> i want to reclaim my mind and choices.
need to
> just scary scary when people say i don't sound like me and i suddenly
> wonder if i'm not and how dire the situation might be.
> can lose perspective quickly.
yes
>> need to all talk to each other and not do anything impulsively
>
> absolutely.
k
astri
> On Jan 1, 10:08 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> what part of the lifestyle are they in?
>
> don't know how to explain it really. i will say how it feels as that
> is how i connect sometimes and i don't know how to say concretely.
> it is family -- the three of us. we all have our own disabilities and
> actually help each other, and in that way it is much like the group
> setting that folks might push for --
> we challenge each other and yeah, there is non-vanilla stuff that is
> all consensual. (we are going very slowly with that, taking all alters
> into account. so different from before when i immersed myself in
> something when some screamed in terror.)
>
> the man gives structure, although to be honest, all three of us are
> pretty opinionated and have dominant sides and those are not
> subverted. it's different from standard expectations maybe....on a
> daily basis, we look like a family struggling together and having fun.
>
> is not all dark like i have gotten into before.
>
> this "lifestyle" includes going to movies, getting ice cream, holding
> hands when struggling, and some other stuff that, frankly, a usenet
> group doesn't need the details of. :)
k
cometz
<emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
snip
> Raven just fears I'll lose proper perspective....
snip
this statement says so much that it is a screaming alert.
how about this version....
Raven just fears they will lose the ability to control and manipulate
me.
there is nothing about this situation that sounds even remotely
healthy. safety at that cost isn't safety. it's just trading the fire
for the flood.
do understand that you are doing the best you can do. hoping for you
that eventually you will be able to do better for selves. requires
time and professional support. imo, what you are getting there isn't
support. it's the trap again wearing different masks.
betsy
Jennifer Thomas
stuff i want to say, but it would be hard to quote everything i'm
commenting on, so i'm gonna jumble it together and hope it makes
sense.
1. i am once again absolutely amazed at the depth and level of caring
and sensitivity this group displays in trying to care for the safety
and wellbeing of one of its members.
2. um, if you're choking yourself in your sleep, won't your hand
relax as soon as you go unconscious, but before d*ath occurs?
3. is one of these people awake the whole time you're asleep? from
my time of playing rpg's i can say that it's not sustainable for 2 ppl
to provide constant supervision over a 3rd person.
4. i'm glad you seem to have found safe people. i know that such
people exist, even in the lifestyle, but that doesn't make me any less
concerned.
5. are you still going to the recovery meeting we've discussed
before? how does this fit in with that? how much can/should i talk
about that here? i'm still attending mine and doing well with it.
what you're doing would NOT fit into my recovery program.
6. it's such a screwy situation, and my gut instinct says it's not
ok, long-term, but i understand that "standard" solutions fall far
short of the things multiples need, sometimes, and i know i've done a
few highly non-standard things that seemed contra-indicated, but
furthered my healing considerably...so i'm going to hope for the best,
wish you the best, and suggest that you maximize the positive benefits
of the situation while maintaining some vigilance for downsides or
problems...and be ready to get out when you need to. if you
do. ...but knowing that the love and the care that you're getting now
is very likely real and sincere...but...probably not sustainable long-
term. and i don't know how long the "play" will be healthy for you,
long-term, however much fun it is. :)
so i guess my advice comes down to: "take what you can use, and leave
the rest."
but the important part there is to LEAVE the rest if and when the
negatives start to outweigh the positives. .........riiiiight...just
like i left dave when the negatives were overwhelming and the
positives were down to "well, he takes the garbage out..." *rolls
eyes at self*
keep healing. keep putting one foot in front of the other, no matter
how hard it is. you know my number. call if you need to. you know
this group. write as much as you can.
i'm adding my voice to the other voices here who care about you and
want what's best for you. if this situation is best for you right
now, go with it. but i can't help being worried, too. i wish i could
just be happy for you without the misgivings, but i can't.
sorry.
jt
astri
well said
fuzzy
>> <8cf490c8-e737-4c57-a84f-d997e892c...@h9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
>> Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<...>
> let's keep talking. i need to know for sure that i'm talking from a
> clear mind, which i think i am learning here, but my vulnerabilities
> are very dangerous and i could easily fall into danger without even
> suspecting.
>
> but i don't see it here.
> i do see the "too good to be true".....
>
> umm. i ran out of words and thoughts. i'm confused. will keep talking.
> will get there.
>
we are glad you are talking. we really hope you keep talking and reading
here
Shiyiya
yeah, the fact that you seem to believe in the "safety" there so little
that it can be easily dislodged by people who are worried about you
asking questions is worrying.
Jennifer Thomas
>
> - Show quoted text -
thanks 4 saying that. not so sure of my feet posting here anymore.
means a lot to me coming from you.
jt
cometz
sorry you feel not sure. i am glad you are back. i don't have a lot to
offer with your topics cause they seem really different than mine. i
know intellectually that the inside feelings and struggles are
ultimately prolly very similar but i just feel sort of at a loss about
what i think. but i read what you write. i like when there are more
people here. i hope you stay.
betsy
fuzzy
we not all wise like astri but we thought it was well said
and we glad you are posting here at asd
Shiyiya
we thought it was well said too. (three! :P)
Jennifer Thomas
>
> - Show quoted text -
thanks. it helps to hear that, too, that you're glad i'm back and
hope i stay.
it's ok not to respond. i can't read a lot of posts because i get
overwhelmed pretty quickly, so i know i won't be able to respond to a
*lot* of what's posted, so it's ok.
jt
Jennifer Thomas
>
> - Show quoted text -
thank u.
Jennifer Thomas
>
> - Show quoted text -
thank u.
Emerging Butterfly
hi again. um, yes, incredibly. i tell them about steven and get a
combination of mortification that someone could treat me that way
and...well, mortification that someone could treat me that way. :)
Emerging Butterfly
hi there. i understand the sense of burn-out and am sorry that this
feels so overwhelming, on top of all your other stuff.
what i read is caring and concern.
I wanted to clarify that I didn't quit with my t.
She terminated with me, stating that she suspects recent c*lt activity
that i may not be aware of and that she cannot sleep at night with a
client who may be in such danger. :(
looking for new t.
Shiyiya
you didn't answer the question though :P am a bit concerned about that,
from what's happened with basically every other bdsm person you have
talked to ever, with your amaaaazing skills at finding creepers.
Emerging Butterfly
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 9:50 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >> please keep talking
>
> > definitely will.
> > these guys just want to make sure that i'm safe and that "thought
> > processes start to heal".....
>
> how will they know that?
> how will you know that?
it seems to be something intuitively known so much of the time. pretty
much, a lot of the self-destruction will have decreased or stopped.
I'll feel ready to live independently. The depression will have
decreased, and the alters will be in better communication and harmony.
Emerging Butterfly
> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 10:03 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> >>> need to post when i seem stable?
>
> >> or just allowed to post only when you seem stable?
>
> > it seemed that way but now that we've talked it out, they're fine
> > with me posting as long as i'm safe.
>
> bet they're reading everything, tho
for now, yes. they are wanting to make sure that nothing like the C.
situation is infiltrating. and they're curious, of course. once time
passes, they say they won't read.
possibly.
> > told that they have a choice now. we are learning basiclife skills
> > from Raven that we've mentioned here that we desperately needed, and
> > the alters are learning to understand what a "push" or "cue" is and
> > say no to it.
>
> k
>
> > is easier said than done but being validated may be biggest piece of
> > healing. however, she carries knowledge on getting past it. *shrugs*
> > some people are given wisdom somehow in the face of untold terror, as
> > so many know here.
>
> > she is one of those souls who just knows things, knows them
> > intuitively and profoundly. in that way, we connect.
>
> >>> and now.....i just feel confused. bereft. lost. wrong. wrong wrong
> >>> wrong.
>
> >> about what?
>
> > i was getting into my guilt fear dread "i'm wrong i shouldn't say this
> >it isn'ttrue i'm ev*l to want this" pr*gramming.
>
> :/
>
> >>> group home?
> >>> i've done that and it never worked because of zero understanding of
> >>> the ra stuff and expectation to just "be responsible" when was little
> >>> little.
>
> >> typical :P
>
> > thanks for understanding why this doesn't seem like such ideal option.
> > it helps much.
>
> yw
>
> > so weary sometimes when told to do things that i know will psychically
> > push me to d*stroy myself.
> > i've done this in group settings, subverted my terror to fit in and
> > minimized the personalities.
> > cannot do that anymore.
>
> k
>
> >>> i feel wrong now.
> >>> about it all.
>
> >> about what?
>
> > i think sometimes when people express skepticism, i just
> > go.....somewhere deep where i am wrong and bad.
>
> isn't what is meant
good.
Emerging Butterfly
> On Jan 2, 12:20 am, Emerging Butterfly
>
> <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> snip
>
> > Raven just fears I'll lose proper perspective....
>
> snip
>
> this statement says so much that it is a screaming alert.
>
> how about this version....
>
> Raven just fears they will lose the ability to control and manipulate
> me.
have thought of that as well. understand the statement mirrors bad
situations. don't know what else to say about them trying to monitor
for safety. Sure, it seems intrusive. However, none of my statements
here are deleted by them or manipulated.
>
> there is nothing about this situation that sounds even remotely
> healthy. safety at that cost isn't safety. it's just trading the fire
> for the flood.
what sounds so unhealthy to you?
Juniper
<440f4329-0163-476f...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I wanted to clarify that I didn't quit with my t.
> She terminated with me, stating that she suspects recent c*lt activity
> that i may not be aware of and that she cannot sleep at night with a
> client who may be in such danger. :(
> looking for new t.
She was worried you might be in danger and so she *terminated* with you?
This sounds very off.
Juniper
jill
In article <6a0e316f-7408-42c4...@j5g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Jennifer Thomas <jtdg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>thanks 4 saying that. not so sure of my feet posting here anymore.
>means a lot to me coming from you.
>
>jt
Your _feet_ post here? Ok, that will take some getting used to.
Friends of, insiders of, etc. are run of the mill in asd, but FEET?!
*ducking and running*
Rainbow Colors (Jill)
--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing
we are becoming white light.
ji...@tuells.org
astri
> I wanted to clarify that I didn't quit with my t.
> She terminated with me, stating that she suspects recent c*lt
> activity that i may not be aware of and that she cannot sleep at
> night with a client who may be in such danger. :(
that just feels *wrong* for a t to do without making sure you're safe
> looking for new t.
hope the next one works out better
astri
> On Jan 1, 11:02 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>
>>> these guys just want to make sure that i'm safe and that "thought
>>> processes start to heal".....
>>
>> how will they know that?
>> how will you know that?
>
> it seems to be something intuitively known so much of the time.
> pretty much, a lot of the self-destruction will have decreased or
> stopped. I'll feel ready to live independently. The depression will
> have decreased, and the alters will be in better communication and
> harmony.
what if that takes a really long time?
ubiquity
Can vouch for it. EB told us about it the night before they didn't post
for a couple days. More to it than was posted, but it happened.
Think everyone's being hard on EB. Understand wary and worry for them,
but think EB hasn't had a chance to say more herself because of all the
questions on whether what she's saying is what is happening.
(t)
--
-ubiquity constellation
ubiquity
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>
>> I wanted to clarify that I didn't quit with my t.
>
>> She terminated with me, stating that she suspects recent c*lt
>> activity that i may not be aware of and that she cannot sleep at
>> night with a client who may be in such danger. :(
>
> that just feels *wrong* for a t to do without making sure you're safe
Sounds a little like when agency thrpst fired us. We never even spoke to
her. She left a message on the answering machine saying if we weren't
showing up, she would assume things were good and she was cancelling all
future appointments.
(t)
--
-ubiquity constellation
astri
:(
cometz
wrote:
> On Jan 2, 8:38 am, cometz <comet...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 2, 12:20 am, Emerging Butterfly
>
> > <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > snip
>
> > > Raven just fears I'll lose proper perspective....
>
> > snip
>
> > this statement says so much that it is a screaming alert.
>
> > how about this version....
>
> > Raven just fears they will lose the ability to control and manipulate
> > me.
>
> have thought of that as well. understand the statement mirrors bad
> situations. don't know what else to say about them trying to monitor
> for safety. Sure, it seems intrusive. However, none of my statements
> here are deleted by them or manipulated.
>
>
>
> > there is nothing about this situation that sounds even remotely
> > healthy. safety at that cost isn't safety. it's just trading the fire
> > for the flood.
>
> what sounds so unhealthy to you?
>
>
allowing anyone to 'own' yourselves. allowing others to 'monitor' your
selves. allowing others access to your selves. moving into a home with
complete strangers. allowing someone who read a lot and "fixed
herself" (!!!!!!! now that is almost magical. not believable but
astounding in its weird arrogance.) and so is now capable of "fixing"
you.
allowing, searching out complete strangers and ceding all authority
for your existence to them. no matter what you feel to be clear and
true there is no way that you can live in their home, eat their food,
be 'cared' for by them, and not realize that this is having a huge
impact in how you perceive reality and your abilities.
as shiyiya pointed out it is impossible to str*ngle yourself.
scientifically impossible. it is indicative of deep suffering and pain
but not possible to happen. but they managed to convince you and you
apparently believed that without them "monitoring" you that you would
have expired. the fact that you cede your very fine intelligence over
to this kind of stupidity is horribly sad. i suspect this is not the
only misinformation they feed you. they are feeding off your
vulnerabilities. they are getting something out of this. that's not
cynicism talking, that is the reality of your situation. your illness
and the losses of childhood want you to be taken care of fully and
lovingly. i have that. prolly most/all here do. but you are just
repeating the past with different faces in the old roles. that is not
how you will heal. this just prolongs the past.
understand that you will continue repeating this pattern until you
don't want to any longer. focusing on finding a very competent t, one
who perhaps has experience working with clients with c*lt history, is
the most important thing you can do. if these ppl care about you at
all they won't impede that. they will assist you. they won't interfere
or make the choices or do anything except help you get to
appointments. my guess is that they will tell you in some fashion that
you are not stable enough. that seems to be their litany. it is really
clever. you will stay and be powerless cause the 'caring' adults tell
you that you can't manage anything better. for now. except now is a
long long time.
betsy
cometz
> On 2010-01-03, Juniper wrote...
> > In article
> > Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I wanted to clarify that I didn't quit with my t.
> >> She terminated with me, stating that she suspects recent c*lt activity
> >> that i may not be aware of and that she cannot sleep at night with a
> >> client who may be in such danger. :(
> >> looking for new t.
>
> > She was worried you might be in danger and so she *terminated* with you?
>
> > This sounds very off.
>
> Can vouch for it. EB told us about it the night before they didn't post
> for a couple days. More to it than was posted, but it happened.
>
> Think everyone's being hard on EB. Understand wary and worry for them,
> but think EB hasn't had a chance to say more herself because of all the
> questions on whether what she's saying is what is happening.
>
> (t)
> --
> -ubiquity constellation
thanks for telling about the t. have had such terrible experiences
with some tpst's that i can absolutely believe she did this.
i see what you are saying about EB. my disbelief is based on this new
situation being a repetition of all the past ones. the details may
differ but the essentials remain the same.
EB rapidly overwhelms. EB panics and begins to run. EB hooks up to
unstable ppl who convince her they are the answer to her problems. EB
beleives she is finally safe. EB doesn't write here. (less of that
this time, but still have gaps of silence and not dealing with
important issues raised) EB telling how wonderful and special ____ is.
EB telling group she is finally in a safe place and hopes group will
support and believe her. you know the rest. i can see she is minimally
safer at this place than at home, but even her best friend won't be
part of this. a friend who has been absolutely there for her in some
of the worst times. a friend who wrote here and didn't come across as
a superior shmuck. (like s. like raven.) a friend who understands her
struggles and wants her to get professional help so she can get free
of these old scripts.
sorry. don't mean to be ranting. think it sounds like that. but truly
one has to know, in spite of all the love and care in the world, that
when it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and looks like a
freaking duck then it probably is a duck. i believe EB is swimming a
polluted pond and wants to believe it leads to cleansing her heart.
you know it doesn't work that way. you struggle all the time to do the
painful, frightening work needed to find some kind of wholeness and
peace. that's how it's done. when it is the right combination of
client and tpst i think it is the only way it is really done.
i think you have deep caring for EB and you almost certainly have much
more patience than i do. but i also think some distress (anger?) about
seeing someone so smart and worthy give up her being once again is a
valid response. and i think all the questions are fair. i think they
are more or less being asked in hopes she will do some critical
thinking for herself.
i think of you as a very gentle creature, like a deer. i think i am
more like an angry cat. but i do know that i try very hard to make
sure my anger here is about caring and not just being ticked off. i do
care about EB. i remember her talking about her students and how well
she worked with them. that is what i wish for her. i wish her to be
able to care about herself and for herself enough that she doesn't
have to keep running. it is what i wish for myself. perhaps that is
part of my anger. different details, same running away.
betsy
astri
> On Jan 3, 8:43 am, Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> what sounds so unhealthy to you?
>
> allowing anyone to 'own' yourselves. allowing others to 'monitor' your
> selves. allowing others access to your selves. moving into a home with
> complete strangers. allowing someone who read a lot and "fixed
> herself" (!!!!!!! now that is almost magical. not believable but
> astounding in its weird arrogance.) and so is now capable of "fixing"
> you.
actually, do believe that it is possible for someone to "fix" themselves
without resorting to professional help, in the sense of healing from
some difficult situations or learning to resist calls of the past.
do find it somewhat concerning (in the long run) that eb has such great
difficulty trusting professionals to know anything about her, but will
throw herself into the utter and complete control of folks in the
lifestyle. seems that this may be due to the fact that most
professionals will want eb to take some of the control for themselves
and to do some of the self-care internally, except for brief periods in
the hosp.
understand that the most current t just dumped her, and that wasn't a
good move at all (tho she did know that eb has a pdoc, so guess she
figured that she wasn't abondoning eb to no help?). but it seems from
what she stated as the reason (not being able to sleep at night because
she couldn't trust that eb would be safe) that part of that may well
have been due to the fact that eb was not letting her in.
can see eb reacting to this observation as us saying that she is bad
and at fault for having been dumped. that is *not* the intent here. not
saying that she was bad for not letting t in, just noting the
difference in how quickly and completely she lets in complete strangers
from the internet compared with how slowly she lets in t's who have
healthy boundaries.
think this is a pattern that needs to be worked on in order for eb to
learn healthy boundaries.
> allowing, searching out complete strangers and ceding all authority
> for your existence to them. no matter what you feel to be clear and
> true there is no way that you can live in their home, eat their food,
> be 'cared' for by them, and not realize that this is having a huge
> impact in how you perceive reality and your abilities.
yes
> as shiyiya pointed out it is impossible to str*ngle yourself.
> scientifically impossible. it is indicative of deep suffering and
> pain but not possible to happen. but they managed to convince you and
> you apparently believed that without them "monitoring" you that you
> would have expired. the fact that you cede your very fine
> intelligence over to this kind of stupidity is horribly sad. i
> suspect this is not the only misinformation they feed you. they are
> feeding off your vulnerabilities. they are getting something out of
> this. that's not cynicism talking, that is the reality of your
> situation. your illness and the losses of childhood want you to be
> taken care of fully and lovingly. i have that. prolly most/all here
> do. but you are just repeating the past with different faces in the
> old roles. that is not how you will heal. this just prolongs the
> past.
except we do believe that eb was in a lot of danger and still is in a
lot of danger. we do think that she needs that total monitoring for
now. is just that we have a hard time trusting these new folks will
have good enough boundaries to see when eb no longer needs that total
monitoring.
and we're concerned that it isn't clear what they are getting from
doing all this work and volunteering all this time (and spending all
this money? or is eb contributing to the household?), so it isn't clear
when they will have had enough. concerned they will get tired of this
and dump her out, and then she will be worse off, having experienced
another deep abandonment. is a huge concern.
another concern is the fact that raven is reportedly ex-cvlt, having
extricated herself. what if she isn't ex? what if they are simply
taking eb in and calming her down and getting the cvlt involved alters
activated to participate instead of leave? what if all this
de-pr0gramming the sui is a front? sorry, know this will upset eb and
cause confusion, but is a concern. how can eb know this isn't the case?
> understand that you will continue repeating this pattern until you
> don't want to any longer. focusing on finding a very competent t, one
> who perhaps has experience working with clients with c*lt history, is
> the most important thing you can do. if these ppl care about you at
> all they won't impede that. they will assist you. they won't
> interfere or make the choices or do anything except help you get to
> appointments.
yes!!!!!
> my guess is that they will tell you in some fashion that you are not
> stable enough. that seems to be their litany. it is really clever.
> you will stay and be powerless cause the 'caring' adults tell you
> that you can't manage anything better. for now. except now is a long
> long time.
really hope this isn't the case. fear it.
cometz
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, cometz wrote:
> > On Jan 3, 8:43 am, Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >> what sounds so unhealthy to you?
>
> > allowing anyone to 'own' yourselves. allowing others to 'monitor' your
> > selves. allowing others access to your selves. moving into a home with
> > complete strangers. allowing someone who read a lot and "fixed
> > herself" (!!!!!!! now that is almost magical. not believable but
> > astounding in its weird arrogance.) and so is now capable of "fixing"
> > you.
>
> actually, do believe that it is possible for someone to "fix" themselves
> without resorting to professional help, in the sense of healing from
> some difficult situations or learning to resist calls of the past.
>
i think one can do an enormous amount of critical learning and gain
some stability with reading. so agree with what you say. do not feel
that deep healing done with tpst, facing another person with the most
frightening and shameful things that tear one apart is very likely
just from reading.
at least this is true for us. reading lots about different topics that
come up has been stabliizing and has helped with clarity. could not
ever do the stuff we have done without a quality professional. maybe
that is not a universal truth, but i expect for most ppl here finding
a good t and doing the work is or has been a critical component of
healing.
> do find it somewhat concerning (in the long run) that eb has such great
> difficulty trusting professionals to know anything about her, but will
> throw herself into the utter and complete control of folks in the
> lifestyle. seems that this may be due to the fact that most
> professionals will want eb to take some of the control for themselves
> and to do some of the self-care internally, except for brief periods in
> the hosp.
>
> understand that the most current t just dumped her, and that wasn't a
> good move at all (tho she did know that eb has a pdoc, so guess she
> figured that she wasn't abondoning eb to no help?). but it seems from
> what she stated as the reason (not being able to sleep at night because
> she couldn't trust that eb would be safe) that part of that may well
> have been due to the fact that eb was not letting her in.
>
> can see eb reacting to this observation as us saying that she is bad
> and at fault for having been dumped. that is *not* the intent here. not
> saying that she was bad for not letting t in, just noting the
> difference in how quickly and completely she lets in complete strangers
> from the internet compared with how slowly she lets in t's who have
> healthy boundaries.
>
> think this is a pattern that needs to be worked on in order for eb to
> learn healthy boundaries.
>
yes. she searches out others to create them for her. not healthy. not
for anyone.
yes. absolutely agree. EB is/was in great danger. think she needs to
be in safe care 24/7 until some kind of communication and stability
occur. was taking huge issue with the portrayal of EB's nite time
attempt to k*ll herself as realistically possible. the fact that they
portrayed as such and her willingness to suspend critical thinking to
seem to believe it is disturbing. understand that it is a symptom of
the degree of pain they are in. i am not dismissing or minimizing that
truth. only the part of the 'caretakers' in what they are helping her
to believe.
> and we're concerned that it isn't clear what they are getting from
> doing all this work and volunteering all this time (and spending all
> this money? or is eb contributing to the household?), so it isn't clear
> when they will have had enough. concerned they will get tired of this
> and dump her out, and then she will be worse off, having experienced
> another deep abandonment. is a huge concern.
>
yes. good ppl do reach out to help ppl who are suffering. but they
usually do it by volunteering thru organizations or being neighbors
who help with rides or babysitting or helping with emergencies. they
don't simply take in strangers and play at reparenting them. is not
healthy pardigm. can't imagine it ever being healthy. is childhood
fantasy. we had it. someone loving would rescue us and love us and
take us away from the ugly. desired it deeply, even thru most of
adulthood so it is not me saying EB's needs and hurts aren't real or
true. is the reality that the desire for a better childhood isn't
realistic. it is done. too late for that. is only healing the children
inside and becoming an adult as much as possible. this situation is
just ceding her being to fulfill impossibe wishes. is hard to know
this. there is one inside who still fights that reality. i do
understand. but don't bow to the lie. that's all, i guess.
> another concern is the fact that raven is reportedly ex-cvlt, having
> extricated herself. what if she isn't ex? what if they are simply
> taking eb in and calming her down and getting the cvlt involved alters
> activated to participate instead of leave? what if all this
> de-pr0gramming the sui is a front? sorry, know this will upset eb and
> cause confusion, but is a concern. how can eb know this isn't the case?
>
yes. exactly. thought this but didn't know if it was safe to point it
out. another reason why concentrating on getting responsible t to work
with is, imo, essential. maybe ubiquity can find out if his tpst would
have suggestions for search. sometimes tpst's with particular kinds of
expertise consult with others in that field, even when they are in
other states.
> > understand that you will continue repeating this pattern until you
> > don't want to any longer. focusing on finding a very competent t, one
> > who perhaps has experience working with clients with c*lt history, is
> > the most important thing you can do. if these ppl care about you at
> > all they won't impede that. they will assist you. they won't
> > interfere or make the choices or do anything except help you get to
> > appointments.
>
> yes!!!!!
>
> > my guess is that they will tell you in some fashion that you are not
> > stable enough. that seems to be their litany. it is really clever.
> > you will stay and be powerless cause the 'caring' adults tell you
> > that you can't manage anything better. for now. except now is a long
> > long time.
>
> really hope this isn't the case. fear it.
>
> -- astri
>
yes. seems to be the calling card of so many v*ctimizers. is how they
keep ppl entangled. threats and coercion. ugly.
betsy
Juniper
ubiquity <ubiq...@aftertragedy.us> wrote:
I wasn't doubting the veracity of EB's report. "This sounds very off"
could be restated as "What kind of bozo therapist deserts their client
when they're in danger?"
I'd gotten some good vibes re: that therapist -- or at least better than
the previous one(s). *shakes head* Amazing what lurks out there behind
a shingle.
Juniper
Juniper
<875da02c-edc0-43da...@3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
cometz <come...@gmail.com> wrote:
> important issues raised) EB telling how wonderful and special is.
Very very well said, betsy. I think you have a very discerning eye.
Juniper
astri
> On Jan 3, 2:44 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, cometz wrote:
>>> On Jan 3, 8:43 am, Emerging Butterfly
>>> <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> what sounds so unhealthy to you?
>>
>>> allowing anyone to 'own' yourselves. allowing others to 'monitor'
>>> your selves. allowing others access to your selves. moving into a
>>> home with complete strangers. allowing someone who read a lot and
>>> "fixed herself" (!!!!!!! now that is almost magical. not believable
>>> but astounding in its weird arrogance.) and so is now capable of
>>> "fixing" you.
>>
>> actually, do believe that it is possible for someone to "fix"
>> themselves without resorting to professional help, in the sense of
>> healing from some difficult situations or learning to resist calls
>> of the past.
>
> i think one can do an enormous amount of critical learning and gain
> some stability with reading. so agree with what you say. do not feel
> that deep healing done with tpst, facing another person with the most
> frightening and shameful things that tear one apart is very likely
> just from reading.
doubt raven was referring to "just" reading
> at least this is true for us. reading lots about different topics
> that come up has been stabliizing and has helped with clarity. could
> not ever do the stuff we have done without a quality professional.
> maybe that is not a universal truth, but i expect for most ppl here
> finding a good t and doing the work is or has been a critical
> component of healing.
we've needed t's
however, know that baba (for example) has gotten very far without t's
>> do find it somewhat concerning (in the long run) that eb has such
>> great difficulty trusting professionals to know anything about her,
>> but will throw herself into the utter and complete control of folks
>> in the lifestyle. seems that this may be due to the fact that most
>> professionals will want eb to take some of the control for
>> themselves and to do some of the self-care internally, except for
>> brief periods in the hosp.
>>
>> understand that the most current t just dumped her, and that wasn't
>> a good move at all (tho she did know that eb has a pdoc, so guess
>> she figured that she wasn't abondoning eb to no help?). but it seems
>> from what she stated as the reason (not being able to sleep at night
>> because she couldn't trust that eb would be safe) that part of that
>> may well have been due to the fact that eb was not letting her in.
>>
>> can see eb reacting to this observation as us saying that she is bad
>> and at fault for having been dumped. that is *not* the intent here.
>> not saying that she was bad for not letting t in, just noting the
>> difference in how quickly and completely she lets in complete
>> strangers from the internet compared with how slowly she lets in t's
>> who have healthy boundaries.
>>
>> think this is a pattern that needs to be worked on in order for eb
>> to learn healthy boundaries.
>
> yes. she searches out others to create them for her. not healthy. not
> for anyone.
yes
k
but can see how that would be extremely disturbing both to hear about
and to watch
tend to think of it as an example of the degree of out of control eb
has been experiencing
>> and we're concerned that it isn't clear what they are getting from
>> doing all this work and volunteering all this time (and spending all
>> this money? or is eb contributing to the household?), so it isn't
>> clear when they will have had enough. concerned they will get tired
>> of this and dump her out, and then she will be worse off, having
>> experienced another deep abandonment. is a huge concern.
>
> yes. good ppl do reach out to help ppl who are suffering. but they
> usually do it by volunteering thru organizations or being neighbors
> who help with rides or babysitting or helping with emergencies. they
> don't simply take in strangers and play at reparenting them. is not
> healthy pardigm. can't imagine it ever being healthy. is childhood
> fantasy. we had it. someone loving would rescue us and love us and
> take us away from the ugly. desired it deeply, even thru most of
> adulthood so it is not me saying EB's needs and hurts aren't real or
> true. is the reality that the desire for a better childhood isn't
> realistic. it is done. too late for that. is only healing the
> children inside and becoming an adult as much as possible. this
> situation is just ceding her being to fulfill impossibe wishes. is
> hard to know this. there is one inside who still fights that reality.
> i do understand. but don't bow to the lie. that's all, i guess.
when did you start to resist this lie?
>> another concern is the fact that raven is reportedly ex-cvlt, having
>> extricated herself. what if she isn't ex? what if they are simply
>> taking eb in and calming her down and getting the cvlt involved
>> alters activated to participate instead of leave? what if all this
>> de-pr0gramming the sui is a front? sorry, know this will upset eb
>> and cause confusion, but is a concern. how can eb know this isn't
>> the case?
>
> yes. exactly. thought this but didn't know if it was safe to point it
> out.
debated
decided to
> another reason why concentrating on getting responsible t to
> work with is, imo, essential. maybe ubiquity can find out if his tpst
> would have suggestions for search. sometimes tpst's with particular
> kinds of expertise consult with others in that field, even when they
> are in other states.
believe they already asked ubiquity's t :P
>>> understand that you will continue repeating this pattern until you
>>> don't want to any longer. focusing on finding a very competent t,
>>> one who perhaps has experience working with clients with c*lt
>>> history, is the most important thing you can do. if these ppl care
>>> about you at all they won't impede that. they will assist you. they
>>> won't interfere or make the choices or do anything except help you
>>> get to appointments.
>>
>> yes!!!!!
>>
>>> my guess is that they will tell you in some fashion that you are
>>> not stable enough. that seems to be their litany. it is really
>>> clever. you will stay and be powerless cause the 'caring' adults
>>> tell you that you can't manage anything better. for now. except now
>>> is a long long time.
>>
>> really hope this isn't the case. fear it.
>
> yes. seems to be the calling card of so many v*ctimizers. is how they
> keep ppl entangled. threats and coercion. ugly.
don't think they're making direct threats
think they're using fear
don't really know if they're well-meaning or victimizers
don't know if the use of fear is coercive or if they are afraid for eb
and are letting her know that
think there are definitely things to be feared in eb's situation, both
before she got together with these people and after she did
understand you (cometz) are convinced these folks are victimizers
not actually sure whether that is the case or not
they may well be well-meaning and not lying to eb
but we are still concerned that this situation isn't healthy
and leaves her open to big abandonment
-- astri
cometz
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, cometz wrote:
> > On Jan 3, 2:44 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, cometz wrote:
> >>> On Jan 3, 8:43 am, Emerging Butterfly
> >>> <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >>>> what sounds so unhealthy to you?
>
> >>> allowing anyone to 'own' yourselves. allowing others to 'monitor'
> >>> your selves. allowing others access to your selves. moving into a
> >>> home with complete strangers. allowing someone who read a lot and
> >>> "fixed herself" (!!!!!!! now that is almost magical. not believable
> >>> but astounding in its weird arrogance.) and so is now capable of
> >>> "fixing" you.
>
> >> actually, do believe that it is possible for someone to "fix"
> >> themselves without resorting to professional help, in the sense of
> >> healing from some difficult situations or learning to resist calls
> >> of the past.
>
> > i think one can do an enormous amount of critical learning and gain
> > some stability with reading. so agree with what you say. do not feel
> > that deep healing done with tpst, facing another person with the most
> > frightening and shameful things that tear one apart is very likely
> > just from reading.
>
> doubt raven was referring to "just" reading
>
unsure. unknown. but to imply that this is a solution for many or most
is not responsible, imo. EB related her as saying she had read a lot
to get 'fixed.' seems too easy and questionable to me.
> > at least this is true for us. reading lots about different topics
> > that come up has been stabliizing and has helped with clarity. could
> > not ever do the stuff we have done without a quality professional.
> > maybe that is not a universal truth, but i expect for most ppl here
> > finding a good t and doing the work is or has been a critical
> > component of healing.
>
> we've needed t's
> however, know that baba (for example) has gotten very far without t's
>
>
yes. but i also think baba is a rather extraordinary person. not
flattery, just my perception. and even baba has attempted to find
someone to work with. even e, who cannot tolerate nearly any tpst
cause of the triggering, spent some serious, intentional energies
trying to find someone who could work with her. i guess my thinking is
that it isn't so much about if one can or can't heal without a t, but
the claim of someone EB doesn't know making it sound so quick and
relatively simple. and yet this same person is taking in a stranger to
participate with her s.o. in some variation of the acting out stuff.
perhaps her reading has given her insight, allowed for growth and
capacity to not behave without some concern and compassioin, but i
wouldn't accept anyone telling me they were fixed cause they read a
lot. not in person. not secondhand. there is very little in life that
is quite that easy.
yes yes. absolutely agree. terrifying to experience oneself doing
that. would send us into deep hiding. truly not dismissing the deep
import of this. only the idea that they would allow her to think this
would actually achieve the worst outcome. sounds manipulative.
>
>
> >> and we're concerned that it isn't clear what they are getting from
> >> doing all this work and volunteering all this time (and spending all
> >> this money? or is eb contributing to the household?), so it isn't
> >> clear when they will have had enough. concerned they will get tired
> >> of this and dump her out, and then she will be worse off, having
> >> experienced another deep abandonment. is a huge concern.
>
> > yes. good ppl do reach out to help ppl who are suffering. but they
> > usually do it by volunteering thru organizations or being neighbors
> > who help with rides or babysitting or helping with emergencies. they
> > don't simply take in strangers and play at reparenting them. is not
> > healthy pardigm. can't imagine it ever being healthy. is childhood
> > fantasy. we had it. someone loving would rescue us and love us and
> > take us away from the ugly. desired it deeply, even thru most of
> > adulthood so it is not me saying EB's needs and hurts aren't real or
> > true. is the reality that the desire for a better childhood isn't
> > realistic. it is done. too late for that. is only healing the
> > children inside and becoming an adult as much as possible. this
> > situation is just ceding her being to fulfill impossibe wishes. is
> > hard to know this. there is one inside who still fights that reality.
> > i do understand. but don't bow to the lie. that's all, i guess.
>
> when did you start to resist this lie?
>
started laughing out loud at this. good question. in the last year and
a bit i have been absorbing large waves of reality that many of my
broken behaviors have been in service to finding replacement parents.
or parent. or anyone who might take care of some aspect of my most
painful wounds. it has been a kind of ugly mirror to see the warp of
this need and desire. i still want it. i still want to get my happy
childhood. but the want isn't so very much in control. kat still wants
it very much and she has bonded with the t so i think she is feeling
safe in a way that she never did before. and i am getting better at
paying attention and reassuring her, so that helps.
i think that for years even if i pretended to myself i was standing on
my own and happy about it, the desire for caretaking was in charge. i
see the change in myself in relation to ppl in real life. being able
to not bend to others so they won't hurt me. being able to see my
needs as equal to others and not worry if they don't like me. i don't
mean i am arrogantly taking and taking without regard to others. but
when fairness and balance are kicked around i don't take it any
longer. i guess what i'm doing differently is not believing i deserve
whatever someone dishes out to me. and i see that this is directly
connected to knowing that if i don't take care of my boundaries and
passively hope that others will "be nice" i am ceding my intelligence
to the old script. for me/us, being brave is being adult.
> >> another concern is the fact that raven is reportedly ex-cvlt, having
> >> extricated herself. what if she isn't ex? what if they are simply
> >> taking eb in and calming her down and getting the cvlt involved
> >> alters activated to participate instead of leave? what if all this
> >> de-pr0gramming the sui is a front? sorry, know this will upset eb
> >> and cause confusion, but is a concern. how can eb know this isn't
> >> the case?
>
> > yes. exactly. thought this but didn't know if it was safe to point it
> > out.
>
> debated
> decided to
>
> > another reason why concentrating on getting responsible t to
> > work with is, imo, essential. maybe ubiquity can find out if his tpst
> > would have suggestions for search. sometimes tpst's with particular
> > kinds of expertise consult with others in that field, even when they
> > are in other states.
>
> believe they already asked ubiquity's t :P
>
>
oh. oh dear.
>
> >>> understand that you will continue repeating this pattern until you
> >>> don't want to any longer. focusing on finding a very competent t,
> >>> one who perhaps has experience working with clients with c*lt
> >>> history, is the most important thing you can do. if these ppl care
> >>> about you at all they won't impede that. they will assist you. they
> >>> won't interfere or make the choices or do anything except help you
> >>> get to appointments.
>
> >> yes!!!!!
>
> >>> my guess is that they will tell you in some fashion that you are
> >>> not stable enough. that seems to be their litany. it is really
> >>> clever. you will stay and be powerless cause the 'caring' adults
> >>> tell you that you can't manage anything better. for now. except now
> >>> is a long long time.
>
> >> really hope this isn't the case. fear it.
>
> > yes. seems to be the calling card of so many v*ctimizers. is how they
> > keep ppl entangled. threats and coercion. ugly.
>
> don't think they're making direct threats
> think they're using fear
>
threats are often implied. using her fears to make her safety feel
threatened. all connected.
> don't really know if they're well-meaning or victimizers
>
i am skeptical. i don't think relatively healthy adults search out and
bring into their lives a stranger who is in deep crisis. i have
offered this a few times to ppl i have known for many years and it was
never healthy for either of us. think this kinda relates to why tpsts
keep clear boundaries. it gives the client a lot of room to push and
stretch and flail without it getting tangled in potentially dangerous
ways.
perhaps they are not victimizers. but think they are most likely
opportunists. think it is also disturbing that since that first post
from raven she has not returned. not posted from her own address. not
participated in any conversation. she threw out a milder variation on
the same onerous placatory tone as s. did when he thought this group
was so stupid we would fall all over ourselves at his wonderfulness.
it's arrogant and doesn't speak well to the author.
> don't know if the use of fear is coercive or if they are afraid for eb
> and are letting her know that
>
don't know, obviously. know that, for me, unless they are spending a
lot of energy helping her find outside, professional support then they
aren't doing right by her.
> think there are definitely things to be feared in eb's situation, both
> before she got together with these people and after she did
>
yes.
> understand you (cometz) are convinced these folks are victimizers
yes. based on how raven approached the group. based on EB's intense
belief and relief that these ppl are going to be the answer. based on
EB's history of searching out ppl who rapidly prove to be absolutely
dangerous to/for her.
>
> not actually sure whether that is the case or not
> they may well be well-meaning and not lying to eb
>
for me the term lying is so wide open that even if they are well
meaning but ignorant their willingness to promote themselves as
capable of providing what EB 'needs' and to believe themselves to be
fixed and, well all of it so far, is a form of lying. if it's not true
it's a lie. whatever the motivation.
> but we are still concerned that this situation isn't healthy
> and leaves her open to big abandonment
>
> -- astri
>
yes. and the longer they convince her that they are her savi*rs the
more painful any failures will be for her. is not a good recipe. just
isn't.
betsy
Emerging Butterfly
> In article
> <440f4329-0163-476f-8a64-9061379cd...@o28g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> > I wanted to clarify that I didn't quit with my t.
> > She terminated with me, stating that she suspects recent c*lt activity
> > that i may not be aware of and that she cannot sleep at night with a
> > client who may be in such danger. :(
> > looking for new t.
>
> She was worried you might be in danger and so she *terminated* with you?
>
> This sounds very off.
>
> Juniper
sounds off and is yet true.
Emerging Butterfly
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
> > On Jan 1, 11:02 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>
> >>> these guys just want to make sure that i'm safe and that "thought
> >>> processes start to heal".....
>
> >> how will they know that?
> >> how will you know that?
>
> > it seems to be something intuitively known so much of the time.
> > pretty much, a lot of the self-destruction will have decreased or
> > stopped. I'll feel ready to live independently. The depression will
> > have decreased, and the alters will be in better communication and
> > harmony.
>
> what if that takes a really long time?
well, that's pretty much a known thing.
now the question is if this will lengthen or shorten the process.
Emerging Butterfly
> On 2010-01-03, Juniper wrote...
> > In article
> > Emerging Butterfly <emerging.butter...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I wanted to clarify that I didn't quit with my t.
> >> She terminated with me, stating that she suspects recent c*lt activity
> >> that i may not be aware of and that she cannot sleep at night with a
> >> client who may be in such danger. :(
> >> looking for new t.
>
> > She was worried you might be in danger and so she *terminated* with you?
>
> > This sounds very off.
>
> Can vouch for it. EB told us about it the night before they didn't post
> for a couple days. More to it than was posted, but it happened.
>
> Think everyone's being hard on EB. Understand wary and worry for them,
> but think EB hasn't had a chance to say more herself because of all the
> questions on whether what she's saying is what is happening.
>
> (t)
> --
> -ubiquity constellation
thank you very much ubiquity. since we spoke on the phone, i know you
heard more of the worry, more of the desperation, and what was
happening with t. and possibly c*lt stuff.
astri
> On Jan 3, 11:03 am, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>> On Jan 1, 11:02 pm, astri <as...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 1 Jan 2010, Emerging Butterfly wrote:
>>
>>>>> these guys just want to make sure that i'm safe and that "thought
>>>>> processes start to heal".....
>>
>>>> how will they know that?
>>>> how will you know that?
>>
>>> it seems to be something intuitively known so much of the time.
>>> pretty much, a lot of the self-destruction will have decreased or
>>> stopped. I'll feel ready to live independently. The depression will
>>> have decreased, and the alters will be in better communication and
>>> harmony.
>>
>> what if that takes a really long time?
>
> well, that's pretty much a known thing.
> now the question is if this will lengthen or shorten the process.
if what will lengthen or shorten the process?
Juniper
<b01eb5c4-9933-4f8b...@j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com>,
Emerging Butterfly <emerging....@hotmail.com> wrote:
That's awful. :-(
Juniper
--
Hearts cannot be bound to orthodoxy.