America's Waistline Expands

[GysdeJongh]

Causation is no correllation. Where are these obesese people, I have not
seen them here.

<http://www.diabetesincontrol.com>

America's Waistline Expands and Costs Soar
The additional medical spending due to obesity is double previous estimates
and exceeds even those of smoking...

U.S. hospitals are ripping out wall-mounted toilets and replacing them with
floor models to better support obese patients. Cars are burning nearly a
billion gallons of gasoline more a year than if passengers weighed what they
did in 1960. The Federal Transit Administration wants buses to be tested for
the impact of heavier riders on steering and braking.

The nation's rising rate of obesity has been well-chronicled. But
businesses, governments and individuals are only now coming to grips with
the costs of those extra pounds, many of which are even greater than
believed only a few years ago:

Many of those costs have dollar signs in front of them, such as the higher
health insurance premiums everyone pays to cover those extra medical costs.
Other changes, often cost-neutral, are coming to the built environment in
the form of wider seats in public places from sports stadiums to bus stops.

The startling economic costs of obesity, often borne by the non-obese, could
become the epidemic's second-hand smoke. Only when scientists discovered
that nonsmokers were developing lung cancer and other diseases from
breathing smoke-filled air did policymakers get serious about fighting the
habit, in particular by establishing nonsmoking zones. The costs that
smoking added to Medicaid also spurred action. Now, as economists put a
price tag on sky-high body mass indexes (BMIs), policymakers as well as the
private sector are mobilizing to find solutions to the obesity epidemic.

The U.S. health care reform law of 2010 allows employers to charge obese
workers 30% to 50% more for health insurance if they decline to participate
in a qualified wellness program.

Such measures do not sit well with all obese Americans. Advocacy groups
formed to "end size discrimination" argue that it is possible to be healthy
"at every size," taking issue with the findings that obesity necessarily
comes with added medical costs.

The percentage of Americans who are obese (with a BMI of 30 or higher) has
tripled since 1960, to 34%, while the incidence of extreme or "morbid"
obesity (BMI above 40) has risen sixfold, to 6%.

The very obese lose one month of productive work per year, costing employers
an average of $3,792 per very obese male worker and $3,037 per female. Total
annual cost of presenteeism due to obesity: $30 billion.

[Bob]

On 5/5/2012 7:20 AM, GysdeJongh wrote:
> Causation is no correllation. Where are these obesese people, I have not
> seen them here.
>

Google "walmartians"
Here's a sample:
http://katkimjac.blogspot.com/2012/02/more-walmartians.html

[tedrosenberg]

Interesting observation on weight gain. I just spent 4 months in
mainland china, NO ONE is overweight there!, that is NO ONE, and not
just Han, Meow, Koreans, Mongols, Tibetans, H'mung, Hainanese, Turks,
and thousands of other ethnic minorities who inhabit China . Expats
from the US and Oz are heavier than Chinese, but all the Expats I talked
to had lost weight while in China (except one TINY woman)

Chinese generally eat a high fat high sodium diet, and they eat BIG
meals. going to a Chinese dinner is like going to my grandmothers.
Stop eating for even a second, and someone will think you are STARVING
and put more food on your plate.

They also have a very efficient transportation system in the cities, and
none of the Chinese I saw walked as much as New Yorkers. They drive
ELECTRIC bikes, so they didn't even peddle.

The ONE overweight Chinese woman I saw had just come from overseas. I
guess I should note that, many young boys are overweight because they
are the only young male in the family. When they start school, the
weight comes right off. You see fat 3 year old boys, but NOT fat 6 year
old boys.


This is a mystery, it is INCREDIBLE to see MILLIONS of people, and NONE
of them are overweight, not a few, NONE.

The only guess we can come up with is Fructose. China has a huge cane
sugar crop, so they produce no high-fructose corn syrup, and don't put
it in anything. That is a GUESS

[Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD]

Suggested reading:

http://WDJW.net/Parable

Be hungrier, which really is wonderfully healthier especially for
diabetics and other heart disease patients:

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?

...because we mindfully choose to openly care with our heart,

Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
EmoryIMVC.org Cardiologist
and Author of the 2PD-OMER Approach:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9ad0c19df5ffc2f7?

[Trawley Trash]

On Sat, 05 May 2012 17:36:53 -0400
tedrosenberg <theodore....@gmail.com> wrote:

> This is a mystery, it is INCREDIBLE to see MILLIONS of people, and
> NONE of them are overweight, not a few, NONE.

I suspect the overweight ones don't get out much, so they are
underrepresented in what a visitor sees. That is certainly
true in the US. I knew someone who's mother was so obese
they had to tear a wall out of the house when her time came.
As her husband commented "at least you know where she is."

A fair percentage of Americans (like maybe 20 percent) just
stay at home and watch TV. Others do their shopping for them.

> The only guess we can come up with is Fructose. China has a huge
> cane sugar crop, so they produce no high-fructose corn syrup, and
> don't put it in anything. That is a GUESS

Chinese food has no dairy products. They use less wheat, and less
oil and sugar than you think. However they seem eager to adopt
western ways, and I am sure they will catch up soon.

[tedrosenberg]

Sheesh - you sure don't know much, do you

stop quoting something you heard from someone somewhere and learn some facts
\
Your incredible bullcrap about "overweight people being hidden" because
one or two morbidly obese people don't go out is only topped by the
incredibly stupid assertion that 20% of Americans don't leave home.

Then you come out babbling idiocy about Chinese diet, which you haven't
a CLUE about. They use PLENTY of dairy products, albeit not as much as
many Americans, lots of wheat. What do you think most noodles are made
of?, or all breads, or doughnuts. LOTS and LOTS of sugar. A typical
desert may be a plate of sliced Tomatoes layered with sugar, or any of
the fried cakes and doughnuts served everywhere.

Then there is FAT, foods are FRIES, deep fried, stir fried, pan fried,
but usually FRIED. Bread is often served fried. I have had dishes I
had to pour the excess fat off of.

and dumplings, sometimes steamed, but often fried, and ALWAYS made from
wheat.

the Moslem areas have more roasted meats, And the less said about what
southerners eat, the better, but I doubt YOU could tell the difference
between various groups.

[Julie Bove]

"tedrosenberg" <theodore....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jo46gu$nh9$1...@dont-email.me...

Very interesting! I used to have a Chinese friend who ate tons of food!
But it was never junk food. He was particularly fond of chicken. He would
eat it in a variety of ways. If we went out for dinner he might order a
chicken Caeser salad along with some pasta with chicken and sometimes even a
plain chicken breast on the side. He was very thin, but he was young too.

[Julie Bove]

"Trawley Trash" <tr...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:2vng79-...@jester.gnet...

> On Sat, 05 May 2012 17:36:53 -0400
> tedrosenberg <theodore....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is a mystery, it is INCREDIBLE to see MILLIONS of people, and
>> NONE of them are overweight, not a few, NONE.
>
> I suspect the overweight ones don't get out much, so they are
> underrepresented in what a visitor sees. That is certainly
> true in the US. I knew someone who's mother was so obese
> they had to tear a wall out of the house when her time came.
> As her husband commented "at least you know where she is."
>
> A fair percentage of Americans (like maybe 20 percent) just
> stay at home and watch TV. Others do their shopping for them.

I remember going to the Alderwood Mall with my mom when it was fairly new.
I can't remember now when they first built it. Maybe the early 80's? We
saw all these hugely fat women in the food court, sadly dressed in wild muu
muu type frocks. I was like... Uh... Where did all these fat women come
from?

My mom told me that they used to sit around at home and were ashamed to go
out in public. And she may have been right. That was about the time period
where a lot of media was telling us to be proud of ourselves no matter what.
And to accept ourselves for who we were.

But it struck me as very odd. It was as though for most of my life I had
only ever seen maybe 2 or 3 people of that size. And now all of a sudden
there they were, having a convention in the food court!

They weren't all together of course. It was just weird to see so many of
them at once.

Another thing that I have seen that is very odd is the breakdown of people
you see at the Old Country Buffet. We will likely never go there again.
The food isn't very tasty for starters. But I have gotten sick the last few
times we ate there and the very last time we all got sick. I always eat the
same foods because they only have a few things I can eat. Anyway... I'd
say about 40% of the patrons are grossly obese. The other 40% are little
bitty Asians. These Asians must be of the champion eater category. You'll
see them go back for food again and again and again. And it's not the
lighter fare. They do love their desserts. The remaining 20% are divided
between underweight, normal weight to overweight and perhaps obese. But...

Angela and I always seemed to be in the minoritiy in that we only ever got
two plates. And the second plate was never full. We took what we were
having for our meal which was a taco salad and then the second plate might
have a little rice or potatoes on it. I would usually also take some green
beans. We never took any more food than that. Never took the bread or
rolls they brought around. And never even approached the desserts. Clearly
they were not making their money on us!

I would look around us and the other tables always had plate after plate
loaded with bones from chicken and ribs. Soup mugs, dessert plates and
bowls. Tons of them. It was as though those people ate until they were
about to burst.

>
>> The only guess we can come up with is Fructose. China has a huge
>> cane sugar crop, so they produce no high-fructose corn syrup, and
>> don't put it in anything. That is a GUESS
>
> Chinese food has no dairy products. They use less wheat, and less
> oil and sugar than you think. However they seem eager to adopt
> western ways, and I am sure they will catch up soon.

I don't know about the sugar. I haven't cooked a lot of Chinese food but
the few recipes I tried did have sugar. Of course they could have been
Americanized recipes. I do think they are less likely to eat desserts and
those desserts are not overly sweet.

[Julie Bove]

"tedrosenberg" <theodore....@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:jo4po6$l82$1...@dont-email.me...

I used to love going to Seattle for Dim Sum. Angela never got to go there
because that place is now closed. They would bring around various dishes
and you'd tell them, "yes" or "no". They would never tell you what the food
was. They would just tell you it was good. Then when they brought the
bill, they charged you by the plate. Each plate was different and each was
a different price.

My favorite food to get there was Hum Bow. I don't really know why I liked
it because it didn't contain things that I normally would like but it sure
tasted good! It was a large, steamed dumpling made of wheat of course with
a pork filling and some oyster sauce inside. It was very sweet! I don't
know if the oyster sauce has sugar in it or what but the end result was
extremely sweet. I have since tried baked ones. My husband used to buy the
baked ones in Oakland. I didn't like them baked. The steamed ones were
very soft. The texture is rather hard to describe. They just sort of melt
in your mouth.

I also liked Pot Stickers. Again made with wheat. I made a huge batch of
these from scratch once and kept them in the freezer. They were a lot of
work. Sort of like a Chinese Ravioli.

I don't know what dairy the Chinese use but I do know they use it. I have
seen it mentioned on various cooking shows.

[tedrosenberg]

When I got to China, I was surprised to find out that
Dim Sum is actually breakfast food .

It is fairly fancy breakfast food,and, although I was told, I can't
remember what region it is from, Like in most places, breakfast is
often a doughnut or sweet bun and a cup of coffee (yes, chinese drink
coffee) The coffee is loaded with sugar, and is cut with 1/3 sweetened
condensed milk. But, if you was to go for a real breakfast, or you are
a businessman sharing a Power breakfast, it is Dim Sum.

As to dumplings here(of all sorts), I buy them frozen from the Korean
markets and pop a few in the microwave to thaw, then steam or fry them,
or, with the little ones, drop a few in some chicken broth.

The to big national Korean grocery chains which are in this area are
HMart, and Lotte. They both have incredible produce, because, unlike the
American chains, they carry riper produce, and a typical HMart probably
has a turnover in the produce department of at least 3-4 times a same
sized Safeway. On a Sunday, you may have to wait in line to get to the
snow peas!

[tedrosenberg]

I know LOTS of overweight Chinese
but ALL of them are in the US, not in China.

Also, remember, China is incredibly diverse. MOST Chinese are Han, but
many are not. My daughter says that walking the streets of Shinjin, it
looks more like downtown Kiev!. Tibetans don't just live in Tibet, they
spread ALL over china thousands of years ago. The Mongols ruled china
for Hundreds of years, and they are still there. Korea conquered and
ruled much of the Coast of China at times, and THEY are still there.
Just because YOU can't tell the difference between a Korean and a Han,
believe me THEY can, easily. There are LOTS of different groups. The
area we lived in was native Hainanese. The little old ladies who sat
out front to the houses gossiping all day and always gave us a cheery
wave couldn't speak much more Chinese than we could. Their CHILDREN and
grandchildren spoke Chinese, but the idea of teaching everybody the same
language didn't really start until about 1953, and still isn't
completely implemented. If you are educated, and under 40, you probably
speak Chinese, if not, you may speak any of a huge number of native
languages

[W. Baker]

tedrosenberg <theodore....@gmail.com> wrote:
: >
: I know LOTS of overweight Chinese

: but ALL of them are in the US, not in China.

: Also, remember, China is incredibly diverse. MOST Chinese are Han, but
: many are not. My daughter says that walking the streets of Shinjin, it
: looks more like downtown Kiev!. Tibetans don't just live in Tibet, they
: spread ALL over china thousands of years ago. The Mongols ruled china
: for Hundreds of years, and they are still there. Korea conquered and
: ruled much of the Coast of China at times, and THEY are still there.
: Just because YOU can't tell the difference between a Korean and a Han,
: believe me THEY can, easily. There are LOTS of different groups. The
: area we lived in was native Hainanese. The little old ladies who sat
: out front to the houses gossiping all day and always gave us a cheery
: wave couldn't speak much more Chinese than we could. Their CHILDREN and
: grandchildren spoke Chinese, but the idea of teaching everybody the same
: language didn't really start until about 1953, and still isn't
: completely implemented. If you are educated, and under 40, you probably
: speak Chinese, if not, you may speak any of a huge number of native
: languages

This variety of peoples and languages was well seved by the Chinese writen
language which is was not phonetically based, but used signs with meaning,
not sound. As a result, until the late 19th centry or so Chinese writing
was used eveninplaces like Vienam ant others because people who couldn't
speak to each other could read eachother's writing. this was most useful
when China had a large empire. They have now introduced more phonetics
into the sysme, which may well cause some difficulties.

Wendy

[Trawley Trash]

On Sat, 05 May 2012 23:05:05 -0400
tedrosenberg <theodore....@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sheesh - you sure don't know much, do you
>
> stop quoting something you heard from someone somewhere and learn
> some facts \
> Your incredible bullcrap about "overweight people being hidden"
> because one or two morbidly obese people don't go out is only topped
> by the incredibly stupid assertion that 20% of Americans don't leave
> home.

I stand on that. It might be 10 percent, or 30 percent, but there
are a lot of them. I spent two years repairing TVs in peoples
homes, and there is a massive weight difference between the people
who have fancy TVs and expensive service contracts and those
you see on the street. Often I was asked to perform some trivial
errand like bringing in the mail, and there was nothing wrong
with the TV.

> Then you come out babbling idiocy about Chinese diet, which you
> haven't a CLUE about. They use PLENTY of dairy products, albeit not
> as much as many Americans, lots of wheat. What do you think most
> noodles are made of?,

In China: wheat, mung beans, sweet potatoes, or even peas. I guess
you don't read labels much.

> or all breads, or doughnuts. LOTS and LOTS of
> sugar. A typical desert may be a plate of sliced Tomatoes layered
> with sugar, or any of the fried cakes and doughnuts served everywhere.

That sounds like what you would see in areas that cater to western
businessmen. You can travel around the world and eat like that
everywhere.

I have seen steamed buns, but not bread. Pancakes with green onions
instead of syrup. And cakes are often made of rice.

> Then there is FAT, foods are FRIES, deep fried, stir fried, pan
> fried, but usually FRIED. Bread is often served fried. I have had
> dishes I had to pour the excess fat off of.

You spent how long in China, and you never had a stir fry over rice?
The cooks earn their pay by using as little oil as possible. Oil
is expensive. The cooking is done with steam, not oil.

They served you what they thought you wanted. It is your own fault if
you ordered the wrong food.

> and dumplings, sometimes steamed, but often fried, and ALWAYS made
> from wheat.

Steamed buns I would call them. Never seen them fried or sweet.
I would probably call them donuts if they were.

Wheat was introduced by the Yuan dynasty after the defeat of
the Sung in 1279. Its use varies by region.

> the Moslem areas have more roasted meats, And the less said about
> what southerners eat, the better, but I doubt YOU could tell the
> difference between various groups.

It is the southern styles that I favor. It begins to look more
like Vietnamese food and Thai food. I also do well on Korean food.

[tedrosenberg]

First, I was never in an area western businessmen travel in. or where
there are even many expats. I was staying with family except when I
took a sleeper to Beijing to catch my return flight

I do stand corrected on noodles, while most of the ones I see at
Carrefours or in the market are wheat. I have seen them made from
beans. Wheat is a major crop, particularly in the North, but is used
all over. SO, (much to my surprise) is corn.

As to Southerners, you obviously never heard "Southerners eat anything
with 4 legs except a table, everything with 2 legs except a man,
everything with wings except an airplane, and everything that crawls
except a baby" Not at ALL like Korean food. Not even CLOSE. Most
westerners would have no trouble with sliced pig stomach and Kimchee,
but fried wharf rat ? I don't know any Koreans who would tackle that .
Southerners eat dog (as do Koreans) but Northerners don't. I, for one,
don't eat either dog or rat, but Dragon (Donkey) pies (in wheat shell)
are fine. There are not a lot of ethnic Koreans in the South or
Southwest. They are in the East, closer to Korea, and Korean BBQ is a
specialty in the south, few places, and expensive. Classy enough that
they hire translators for their menus.

I, for one don't see any connection between the southern style foods and
either Thai or Vietnamese. You will find Thai restaurants in the south,
mainly (but not entirely) Buddhist. I ate at two Thai places when I was
there, one was a VERY confused Buddhist center, with great mushroom
dishes, and nothing which taster like any Thai dish i ever had, and the
other at one of thee top places in town, where where we were guests of
the Executive Chef, so I am not entirely sure what I had, just that it
was excellent.

I never saw a Vietnamese place (which doesn't mean that there weren't
thousands of them), and all the Vietnamese chefs i know in the US are
ethnic Chinese who fled Vietnam.

[tedrosenberg]

Yes, try WeiBo instead of Twitter. You can get a LOT of meaning in 140
Chinese idiographs

[Peppermint Patootie]

In article <2vng79-...@jester.gnet>,

Trawley Trash <tr...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> > The only guess we can come up with is Fructose. China has a huge
> > cane sugar crop, so they produce no high-fructose corn syrup, and
> > don't put it in anything. That is a GUESS
>
> Chinese food has no dairy products. They use less wheat, and less
> oil and sugar than you think. However they seem eager to adopt
> western ways, and I am sure they will catch up soon.

The dominant starch varies by geography.

Northern China (where my father grew up) is colder and has wheat as its
dominant starch. Breads of many kinds (steamed, baked, fried) are
featured in the cuisine. There's also more lamb used, when one can
afford meat.

Southern China is warmer and has rice as its dominant starch. Most
USians are familiar with a version of some southern Chinese cooking
because the Chinese people who provided the labor to build the railroads
and who were the first immigrants from China were from a few of the
coastal rice-eating areas of southern China. They introduced "Chinese
food" to the US, adapting their cooking to US appetites and expectations.

What most folks in the US know as "Chinese food" is an Americanized
version of what the rich eat in just a few areas of China. Meat is a
luxury for most, and for many Chinese through the millennia, starch and
veggies have been the main components of their diet, along with some oil
and what seasonings could be afforded. The very poor would drink hot
water, since tea was so pricey only the well-to-do could afford it.

PP

[Peppermint Patootie]

In article <safj79-...@jester.gnet>,

Trawley Trash <tr...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> > and dumplings, sometimes steamed, but often fried, and ALWAYS made
> > from wheat.
>
> Steamed buns I would call them. Never seen them fried or sweet.
> I would probably call them donuts if they were.

Oh, there are plenty of sweet baked goods and fried delights. Fried
doughnuts filled with bean paste, just to name one.

Too sweet for me, but my mother loves them. They remind her of her
trips to Beijing with my father.

PP

[Maya Zuiderweg]

Peppermint Patootie heeft ons zojuist aangekondigd :

Here "chinese food" is mostly from take-aways, its packed with
monosodiumglutamate (vetsin), I get sick of this next day.
Work-around: making your own "chinese food".
Weve colonised Indonesia (and some more), thats where "our" "chinese
food"-tradition comes from...
M.

[W. Baker]

Peppermint Patootie <Peppermin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: In article <2vng79-...@jester.gnet>,

When the sweet potato was introduced to China, it was a godsend. It
provided lots of calories to peole living on calorie-poor diets adn it
grew in areas where it did not compete with rice, the major calorie source
in the soutern part of China.

More form my summer over 50 years ago when I studies Asian History and a
seminar in Russo-Asian relations. For some reason this kind of stuff
really sticks with me:-)

Wendy

[tedrosenberg]

Meat is no longer a rarity. LOTS of mutton, duck, fish, pork chicken,
everywhere at every roadside food stand, and any place there is food.

Unless you are Buddhist, it is a status thing, to ALWAYS have meat at
meals, after all, your parents couldn't.

Bread is not what most Americans expect, but mainly fried flat-breads.
Also, a BIG dish (can't remember the name) is chopped flat-bread
pan-fried. Looks and tastes like spicy home fried potatoes. Of course,
there is always plenty of rice

Three dishes you get everywhere are
1) Home style Tofu
2) Big plate chicken
3) and chicken soup with dumplings.

What is interesting about these dishes is that they bear almost no
relationship to one another from one place to another. They have the
same name, and the same basic ingredients, but different vegetables,
different spices, different sauces. Big plate chicken is a large plate
of pieces of chicken cooked (maybe) with vegetables, (maybe) fried,
(maybe) boiled, (maybe spicy) but is always chicken, and it is always
served in a plate about twice the size of most serving plates.

I am not talking from Sanyo to Shinjin
, I am talking abouy from THIS block to the next one.

One of my favorite meals is at a congee stand in old-town Haikou, where
they open about 10PM. There is another stand, in the market area, which
ALSO sells "authentic Haikou seafood Congee". It is also good, also
seafood, also congee, only slightly similar to the place I prefer (but
it opens about 6, and closes at 10)


If you ask a Hainese where t get the best food, what will they tell you?
(two possible answers)

[tedrosenberg]

I don't know where it came from, because the Chinese sweet potato is an
entirely different plant than the US one. The tuber tastes pretty
close, but American Sweet potato leaves are poisonous, and Asian are
served often (and taste great)

[Trawley Trash]

On Sun, 06 May 2012 21:37:23 -0400
tedrosenberg <theodore....@gmail.com> wrote:

> I, for one don't see any connection between the southern style foods
> and either Thai or Vietnamese.

Northern Chinese styles do contain wheat, and I must
avoid them. In the south there is rice instead of wheat. No milk
except coconut or boiled milk. Thai food is also heavy on spices.

Sweet potato noodles are a Korean staple.

And I left rice out of my list of alternative ingredients for noodles.

Have you never seen pancakes with onions and no sugar (or syrup)?

I do not have to go to China to read up on these things, or to take
classes in Chinese cooking. Of course that was forty years ago.

China is changing rapidly, and I can see those changes on the shelves
of our Asian supermarkets. More and more western style snack foods
and sugar. They are copying our mistakes, and I do not doubt that
diabetes is surging there.

[tedrosenberg]

On 5/7/2012 12:43 PM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> On Sun, 06 May 2012 21:37:23 -0400
> tedrosenberg<theodore....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I, for one don't see any connection between the southern style foods
>> and either Thai or Vietnamese.
>
> Northern Chinese styles do contain wheat, and I must
> avoid them. In the south there is rice instead of wheat. No milk
> except coconut or boiled milk. Thai food is also heavy on spices.

Actually lots of milk, you can't go a block without an ad for some milk
drink. Still not in a class by US standards. My daughter hates the
ultrapasturised stuff, so she gets her delivered every morning by a
neighbor with a cow.

"Heavy on spices" you SURE don't get around much SOME areas are heavy on
spices, some areas in the far south use almost no spices in cooking.

>
> Sweet potato noodles are a Korean staple.

Yes, but Korea, and most Koreans are in the far Northeast

>

> And I left rice out of my list of alternative ingredients for noodles.
>

No argument that "glass noodles" are rice, they seem to be mainly
Singaporean

> Have you never seen pancakes with onions and no sugar (or syrup)?
>

sure

> I do not have to go to China to read up on these things, or to take
> classes in Chinese cooking. Of course that was forty years ago.
>
> China is changing rapidly, and I can see those changes on the shelves
> of our Asian supermarkets. More and more western style snack foods
> and sugar. They are copying our mistakes, and I do not doubt that
> diabetes is surging there.
>

You seem to have some ideas from the Western edge of Guangdong, near
Vietnam, and from the areas near Korea

You also seem to think that US cooking schools have ANYTHING to do with
how people in China actually eat today. I have a friend who has a
cooking school. Of course, except for an occasional visit, she hasen't
been in China in 50 years. Also, she teaches what westerners might
like, NOT what Yunan of Heinan might like.

You haven't noticed that your Asian supermarkets are Korean, NOT
Chinese. The largest chain's name (in Chinese) translates to "Korean
Dragon Foods"

You also think you know more about something on the other side of the
earth by "reading about it" than people who have been there

[Peppermint Patootie]

In article <G_ydnWui8cgMljXS...@giganews.com>,
Maya Zuiderweg <$no_spam#ma_dot_zuiderweg_@_me_dot_com#maps_on$>
wrote:

> Here "chinese food" is mostly from take-aways, its packed with
> monosodiumglutamate (vetsin), I get sick of this next day.
> Work-around: making your own "chinese food".
> Weve colonised Indonesia (and some more), thats where "our" "chinese
> food"-tradition comes from...
> M.

Yes, I mostly cook my own Chinese food, based on what my father cooked
when I was growing up, what I've eaten in authentic Chinese restaurants,
and what I've learned from media of various kinds. I am lucky in that
there is a big Asian market near my office where I can get just about
anything for Chinese or other Asian cooking. They have a food court as
well with a stand where I can get 1/2 a roast duck or ribs or cuttlefish
or any of those other goodies. The place is usually packed with college
kids of Asian ancestry.

When I was a senior in college, a friend and I took six weeks and
travelled to the UK, Amsterdam, and Paris. We knew that to eat well and
inexpensively we should patronize restaurants serving the cuisine of
countries colonized by the country we were in. So in the UK we ate a
lot of Indian food (also Chinese), in Amsterdam we ate Indonesian (and
again Chinese), and in Paris we ate Algerian. Not Chinese in Paris
because as an alternative to Algerian I became addicted to steak aux
poivres with red vin ordinaire.

I'll adapt Chinese dishes for my own way of eating, too. For instance,
the "soup noodles" I used to eat have morphed into a dish with no actual
noodles in it. Lots of greens and other things in stock from cooking up
pork neck bones, with the meat from the bones or chopped pieces of roast
duck (and sometimes tofu), seasoned with soy sauce and vinegar. I make
my own sour hot soup, too, as well as various stirfried dishes. For
lunch in a few minutes I'm having leftover stir-fried pork and broccoli
(with lots of garlic) from last night's dinner. Stir fry dishes I eat
without rice.

PP
--
"What you fail to understand is that criticising established authority by means
of argument and evidence is a crucial aspect of how science works."
- Chris Malcolm

[W. Baker]

Peppermint Patootie <peppermin...@yahoo.com> wrote:

: I'll adapt Chinese dishes for my own way of eating, too. For instance,

: the "soup noodles" I used to eat have morphed into a dish with no actual
: noodles in it. Lots of greens and other things in stock from cooking up
: pork neck bones, with the meat from the bones or chopped pieces of roast
: duck (and sometimes tofu), seasoned with soy sauce and vinegar. I make
: my own sour hot soup, too, as well as various stirfried dishes. For
: lunch in a few minutes I'm having leftover stir-fried pork and broccoli
: (with lots of garlic) from last night's dinner. Stir fry dishes I eat
: without rice.

: PP
: --
: "What you fail to understand is that criticising established authority by means
: of argument and evidence is a crucial aspect of how science works."
: - Chris Malcolm

Pris,

Could you send your recipe for the sour-hot soup, and can I sub for the
pork?

Wendy

[Maya Zuiderweg]

Peppermint Patootie schreef :

That you found good Chinese restaurants in Amsterdam!
I know of 2 or 3, veryvery expensive.
Indonesian restaurants are more authentic--although: the famous
"rijsttafel", which is served in every Indonesian restaurant is really
a remainder of us as colonizators, which ate waaay to much food + drank
lotsa alcohol.
There are monkeys in Indonesia (Borneo) called nose-apes (Proboscis).
They look like this: red haired, upturned nose,pink face, potbellied
from eating so much mangrove-leaves in the trees(=their digestive
system is quite complicated).
The Indonesians were calling them: orang blanda.
Orang=ape. Blanda=white.
So they called the Proboscis: a Dutchman.
Guess why. Eating all these rijsttafels+drinking>>>potbellies, fat pimk
faces.
The shape of the nose+ the colour of the hair also "helped".
M.

[Peppermint Patootie]

In article <jobscs$mct$1...@reader1.panix.com>,
"W. Baker" <wba...@panix.com> wrote:

> Pris,

Ummm.... Priscilla, please. "Pris" is too close to the noxious
adjective. ;-)

>
> Could you send your recipe for the sour-hot soup, and can I sub for the
> pork?
>
> Wendy

I'll try to remember to dig it up and send it. It's from Mme. Chou's
_How to Cook and Eat in Chinese_, although I do adapt it a bit.

Re: pork... hmmm... Is duck kosher? You want a darker flavorful meat,
and duck pops to mind. Beef would do in a pinch, but I might go
vegetarian before subbing something in for the pork. There's tofu in
the soup, also eggs.

[W. Baker]

Peppermint Patootie <peppermin...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: In article <jobscs$mct$1...@reader1.panix.com>,

Thanks Priscilla,(see I can learn:-)

I hope you do find it. I sometimes use dark meat chicken of veal(which is
usually too expensive) I can roast chcken bottoms or turkey bottoms to a
kind of porkt roast quality is done in small pieces , boneless. Duck is
available, but at $10 a lb, not for kidding around:-)

Wendy

[Trawley Trash]

On Tue, 08 May 2012 10:35:30 -0400
tedrosenberg <theodore....@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 5/7/2012 12:43 PM, Trawley Trash wrote:
> > On Sun, 06 May 2012 21:37:23 -0400
> > tedrosenberg<theodore....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I, for one don't see any connection between the southern style
> >> foods and either Thai or Vietnamese.
> >
> > Northern Chinese styles do contain wheat, and I must
> > avoid them. In the south there is rice instead of wheat. No milk
> > except coconut or boiled milk. Thai food is also heavy on spices.
>
> Actually lots of milk, you can't go a block without an ad for some
> milk drink. Still not in a class by US standards. My daughter hates
> the ultrapasturised stuff, so she gets her delivered every morning by
> a neighbor with a cow.

Now you have just confirmed what I wrote. Milk is either coconut
milk or boiled (ultrapasurized).

You let your daughter drink raw milk? That's criminal. Tuberculosis from
raw milk wiped out my mother's family. Right here in the USA.

Most people shouldn't drink milk; but if they do, it should be boiled.

> "Heavy on spices" you SURE don't get around much SOME areas are heavy
> on spices, some areas in the far south use almost no spices in
> cooking.

And some southern areas are renown for heavy spice much like Thai
food. Northern food is not as spicy.

> > Sweet potato noodles are a Korean staple.
>
> Yes, but Korea, and most Koreans are in the far Northeast

I know that. What is your point?

> > And I left rice out of my list of alternative ingredients for
> > noodles.
> >
> No argument that "glass noodles" are rice, they seem to be mainly
> Singaporean

Glass noodles are usually mung bean noodles or sweet potato
noodles. Rice noodles are called "rice noodles", and they are
found in all cultures: except American. They are opaque: not
translucent like glass noodles.

And I also left off buckwheat noodles. If you want those, you
have to go to Tokyo. The ones they export to the US all have
wheat in them.

> > Have you never seen pancakes with onions and no sugar (or syrup)?
> >
> sure
> > I do not have to go to China to read up on these things, or to
> > take classes in Chinese cooking. Of course that was forty years
> > ago.
> >
> > China is changing rapidly, and I can see those changes on the
> > shelves of our Asian supermarkets. More and more western style
> > snack foods and sugar. They are copying our mistakes, and I do not
> > doubt that diabetes is surging there.
> >
> You seem to have some ideas from the Western edge of Guangdong, near
> Vietnam, and from the areas near Korea

I need food that has no wheat and no milk, and I look all over
the world for ideas.

> You also seem to think that US cooking schools have ANYTHING to do
> with how people in China actually eat today. I have a friend who has
> a cooking school. Of course, except for an occasional visit, she
> hasen't been in China in 50 years. Also, she teaches what westerners
> might like, NOT what Yunan of Heinan might like.

It wasn't a cooking school. She was a sweet Chinese lady whose
daughter had similar allergies to mine. Lots of experience from
living in China. She taught a basic cooking class for adults.

> You haven't noticed that your Asian supermarkets are Korean, NOT

> Chinese. The largest chain's name (ine Chinese) translates to
> "Korean Dragon Foods"

You haven't noticed that whether they call themselves Korean, or
Vietnamese, or Asian, they all carry similar items. They must
buy from the same distributors.

> You also think you know more about something on the other side of the
> earth by "reading about it" than people who have been there

I can learn more by listening to people who grew up there
than from Americans who visit and claim they know everything.
Especially when an American opens with the suggestion that southern
Chinese eat fried rats.

[Peppermint Patootie]

In article <xtydnVm6o5i05DTS...@giganews.com>,
Maya Zuiderweg <$no_spam#ma_dot_zuiderweg_@_me_dot_com#maps_on$>
wrote:
> Peppermint Patootie schreef :

> > When I was a senior in college, a friend and I took six weeks and
> > travelled to the UK, Amsterdam, and Paris. We knew that to eat well and
> > inexpensively we should patronize restaurants serving the cuisine of
> > countries colonized by the country we were in. So in the UK we ate a
> > lot of Indian food (also Chinese), in Amsterdam we ate Indonesian (and
> > again Chinese), and in Paris we ate Algerian. Not Chinese in Paris
> > because as an alternative to Algerian I became addicted to steak aux
> > poivres with red vin ordinaire.
>

> That you found good Chinese restaurants in Amsterdam!
> I know of 2 or 3, veryvery expensive.

This was January of 1974. We stayed in a hotel on the edge of the red
light district, not far from the train station, if I remember correctly.
The Chinese restaurant we went to was fairly near. It was their stir
fried squid with broccoli that had me coming back another day. So fresh
and so good!

[Maya Zuiderweg]

Peppermint Patootie drukte met precisie uit :

> In article <xtydnVm6o5i05DTS...@giganews.com>,
> Maya Zuiderweg <$no_spam#ma_dot_zuiderweg_@_me_dot_com#maps_on$>
> wrote:
>> Peppermint Patootie schreef :
>
>>> When I was a senior in college, a friend and I took six weeks and
>>> travelled to the UK, Amsterdam, and Paris. We knew that to eat well and
>>> inexpensively we should patronize restaurants serving the cuisine of
>>> countries colonized by the country we were in. So in the UK we ate a
>>> lot of Indian food (also Chinese), in Amsterdam we ate Indonesian (and
>>> again Chinese), and in Paris we ate Algerian. Not Chinese in Paris
>>> because as an alternative to Algerian I became addicted to steak aux
>>> poivres with red vin ordinaire.
>>
>> That you found good Chinese restaurants in Amsterdam!
>> I know of 2 or 3, veryvery expensive.
>
> This was January of 1974. We stayed in a hotel on the edge of the red
> light district, not far from the train station, if I remember correctly.
> The Chinese restaurant we went to was fairly near. It was their stir
> fried squid with broccoli that had me coming back another day. So fresh
> and so good!
>
> PP

I see. Yes, much has changed since that time.
M.

[tedrosenberg]

1) who said she drinks raw milk? In China, you even boil the water
before you drink it.
2) Do you have a 31 year old daughter who lives 11,000 miles away from
you? If so tell me how you can STOP her from doing anything she wants!


Well, you can NOT learn anything from people who were there many years
ago, It was a different time and a FAR different place and , rest
assured, you will have no problem finding fried rats in Southern China,
not as easily as roast dog, but not to hard to find if you know the
area. In Guangdong, the grossest of the food markets were closed down
after SARS,
and the Health Department in Heinan has cracked down on their famous
almost raw chicken dish,
but there is a reason that people think Southerners food can be gross.
AND, there are still plenty of Dog restaurants,
and a few Rat restaurants left.

[tedrosenberg]

Oh,you think BUCKWHEAT noodles are made from rice?

Then what are RICE noodles made from Mayonnaise?

[Trawley Trash]

No, monkey brains.

[Bjørn Steensrud]

On Tue, 08 May 2012 21:51:02 +0200, Maya Zuiderweg wrote:

.
> The Indonesians were calling them: orang blanda. Orang=ape.
> Blanda=white.
> So they called the Proboscis: a Dutchman. Guess why. Eating all these
> rijsttafels+drinking>>>potbellies, fat pimk faces.
> The shape of the nose+ the colour of the hair also "helped". M.

Uh - I think Orang means Man - doesn't it? As in Orang Utang: Forest man.

I'll never forget the Rijsttafel in Amsterdam when one of your countrymen
tricked me into putting a really, really hot Sambal on my rice ...
But that is a VERY long time ago.

[Maya Zuiderweg]

Bjørn Steensrud heeft uiteengezet op 12-5-2012 :

> On Tue, 08 May 2012 21:51:02 +0200, Maya Zuiderweg wrote:
>
> .
>> The Indonesians were calling them: orang blanda. Orang=ape.
>> Blanda=white.
>> So they called the Proboscis: a Dutchman. Guess why. Eating all these
>> rijsttafels+drinking>>>potbellies, fat pimk faces.
>> The shape of the nose+ the colour of the hair also "helped". M.
>
> Uh - I think Orang means Man - doesn't it? As in Orang Utang: Forest man.

You are right, my mistake.

> I'll never forget the Rijsttafel in Amsterdam when one of your countrymen
> tricked me into putting a really, really hot Sambal on my rice ...

Sambals can really vary in "hotness" ;-)

> But that is a VERY long time ago.

Are you Scandinavian? Dont have many Indonesian restaurants in these
parts, I think..
M.

[Bjørn Steensrud]

On Sat, 12 May 2012 22:13:28 +0200, Maya Zuiderweg wrote:

> Bjørn Steensrud heeft uiteengezet op 12-5-2012 :

>> I'll never forget the Rijsttafel in Amsterdam when one of your
>> countrymen tricked me into putting a really, really hot Sambal on my
>> rice ...
>
> Sambals can really vary in "hotness" ;-)

This one was rather extreme for me - maybe I can tolerate the heat more
now?

>> But that is a VERY long time ago.
>
> Are you Scandinavian? Dont have many Indonesian restaurants in these
> parts, I think..
> M.

Norwegian, and no, no Indonesian restaurants here. Several Thai, one nice
Korean, their Bulgogi is very good, but regular kimchi is still to hot
for me :-)

[Maya Zuiderweg]

Bjørn Steensrud schreef op 14-5-2012 :

> On Sat, 12 May 2012 22:13:28 +0200, Maya Zuiderweg wrote:
>
>> Bjørn Steensrud heeft uiteengezet op 12-5-2012 :
>
>>> I'll never forget the Rijsttafel in Amsterdam when one of your
>>> countrymen tricked me into putting a really, really hot Sambal on my
>>> rice ...
>>
>> Sambals can really vary in "hotness" ;-)
>
> This one was rather extreme for me - maybe I can tolerate the heat more
> now?

Dont think that it works that way.
Read about spicy foods (mostly Indian curries) that they are _made_ hot
and spicy so one can _not_ taste the vintage of the meats involved..

>
>>> But that is a VERY long time ago.
>>
>> Are you Scandinavian? Dont have many Indonesian restaurants in these
>> parts, I think..
>> M.
>
> Norwegian, and no, no Indonesian restaurants here. Several Thai, one nice
> Korean, their Bulgogi is very good, but regular kimchi is still to hot
> for me :-)

So, your country colonised Thailand and Korea..;-)
Portuguese kitchen as well as Dutch kitchen (well some of it) are
influenced by the colonised Eastern parts of the world (kitchen=the
foods).
M.

[Bjørn Steensrud]

On Mon, 14 May 2012 18:04:36 +0200, Maya Zuiderweg wrote:

> Bjørn Steensrud schreef op 14-5-2012 :

>> Norwegian, and no, no Indonesian restaurants here. Several Thai, one
>> nice Korean, their Bulgogi is very good, but regular kimchi is still to
>> hot for me :-)
>
> So, your country colonised Thailand and Korea..;-) Portuguese kitchen as
> well as Dutch kitchen (well some of it) are influenced by the colonised
> Eastern parts of the world (kitchen=the foods).
> M.

:-) As a Danish province waay back we had colonies in India and the
Caribbean. Lots of people spend holidays in Thailand or even retire
there. Beats Norwegian winters ... Nothing in Korea except one MASH you-
know-when.

Interesting stuff about Portuguese influence in South-east Asia:
The word pão (bread) seems to be adopted into Japanese as "pan" and
Korean as "bang" - I believe "obrigado" turned into Japanese "arigato" :-)
(Yes, I have spent some time there in a previous career.)

[Maya Zuiderweg]

Bjørn Steensrud stelde dit idée voor :

> On Mon, 14 May 2012 18:04:36 +0200, Maya Zuiderweg wrote:
>
>> Bjørn Steensrud schreef op 14-5-2012 :
>
>>> Norwegian, and no, no Indonesian restaurants here. Several Thai, one
>>> nice Korean, their Bulgogi is very good, but regular kimchi is still to
>>> hot for me :-)
>>
>> So, your country colonised Thailand and Korea..;-) Portuguese kitchen as
>> well as Dutch kitchen (well some of it) are influenced by the colonised
>> Eastern parts of the world (kitchen=the foods).
>> M.
>
> :-) As a Danish province waay back we had colonies in India and the
> Caribbean.

I bet the British took these colonies from the Danish as well as from
the Dutch (who in their turn took these away from the Portuguese) Not
to mention Spain (never mention Spain--80 years of war-end is still a
holiday+feast in lots of cities in this country, one of these "my"
city).

>Lots of people spend holidays in Thailand or even retire
> there. Beats Norwegian winters ... Nothing in Korea except one MASH you-
> know-when.
>
> Interesting stuff about Portuguese influence in South-east Asia:
> The word pão (bread) seems to be adopted into Japanese as "pan" and
> Korean as "bang" - I believe "obrigado" turned into Japanese "arigato" :-)
> (Yes, I have spent some time there in a previous career.)

The Dutch had a teensyweensy (but influential) trading-island-post:
Deshima 'in' Japan. Oranda-town is a (fake) dutch replica sightseeing
place for Japanese now (bet you heard of that when working there).

Obrigado? Obligated? Japanese and the l ..Oranda, Olanda, Holland..

M.