Challenging Paleo Justifications

[randyf]

Here's a Ted talking challenging basic paleo foundations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8

Randy

[randyf]

Here's a print inverview with the same presenter:
http://tinyurl.com/c2243ma

[GysdeJongh]

Thx Randy,
over the years I posted a number of new articles from anthropology about
ancient diets. One of the other scientists who cares to respond to the
misconceptions in what our ancestors ate is Marlene Zuk :

<http://www.salon.com/2013/03/10/paleofantasy_stone_age_delusions/>

"Paleofantasy": Stone Age delusions
An evolutionary biologist explains why everything you think you know about
cavemen (and their diet) is wrong

Four years ago, biology professor Marlene Zuk was attending a conference on
evolution and diseases of modern environments. She sat in on a presentation
by Loren Cordain, author of "The Paleo Diet" and a leading guru of the
current craze for emulating the lifestyles of our Stone-Age ancestors.
Cordain pronounced several foods (bread, rice, potatoes) to be the cause of
a fatal condition in people carrying certain genes. Intrigued, Zuk stood up
and asked Cordain why this genetic inability to digest so many common foods
had persisted. "Surely it would have been selected out of the population,"
she suggested.

Cordain, who has a Ph.D in exercise physiology, assured Zuk that human
beings had not had time to adapt to foods that only became staples with the
advent of agriculture. "It's only been ten thousand years," he explained.
Zuk's response: "Plenty of time." He looked at her blankly, and she
repeated: "Plenty of time." Zuk goes on to write, "we never resolved our
disagreement."

That's not, strictly speaking, true. Consider "Paleofantasy: What Evolution
Really Tells Us About Sex, Diet and How We Live," a conclusive refutation of
Cordain's quixotic, if widespread, view of human evolution, along with many
other misconceptions. Zuk - who has a puckish humor (she describes one
puffy-lipped Nicaraguan fish as "the Angelina Jolie of cichlids") and a
history of studying evolution, ecology and behavior - found herself bemused
by how the object of her research has been portrayed in various media and
subcultures. She cruised the New York Times' health blog and sites like
cavemanforum.com, collecting half-baked interpretations of evolutionary
"facts" and eccentric theories ranging from the repudiation of eyeglasses to
the belief that carbs can make one's nose "more round."


<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC470712/>

Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 2004 Jun 29;101(26):9551-5. Epub 2004 Jun 21.
The broad spectrum revisited: evidence from plant remains.

The beginning of agriculture is one of the most important developments in
human history, with enormous consequences that paved the way for settled
life and complex society. Much of the research on the origins of agriculture
over the last 40 years has been guided by Flannery's [Flannery, K. V. (1969)
in The Domestication and Exploitation of Plants and Animals, eds. Ucko, P.
J. & Dimbleby, G. W. (Duckworth, London), pp. 73-100] "broad spectrum
revolution" (BSR) hypothesis, which posits that the transition to farming in
southwest Asia entailed a period during which foragers broadened their
resource base to encompass a wide array of foods that were previously
ignored in an attempt to overcome food shortages. Although these resources
undoubtedly included plants, nearly all BSR hypothesis-inspired research has
focused on animals because of a dearth of Upper Paleolithic archaeobotanical
assemblages. Now, however, a collection of >90,000 plant remains, recently
recovered from the Stone Age site Ohalo II (23,000 B.P.), Israel, offers
insights into the plant foods of the late Upper Paleolithic. The staple
foods of this assemblage were wild grasses, pushing back the dietary shift
to grains some 10,000 years earlier than previously recognized. Besides the
cereals (wild wheat and barley), small-grained grasses made up a large
component of the assemblage, indicating that the BSR in the Levant was even
broader than originally conceived, encompassing what would have been
low-ranked plant foods. Over the next 15,000 years small-grained grasses
were gradually replaced by the cereals and ultimately disappeared from the
Levantine diet.
PMID: 15210984

Science. 2009 Dec 18;326(5960):1680-3. doi: 10.1126/science.1173966.
Mozambican grass seed consumption during the Middle Stone Age.

The role of starchy plants in early hominin diets and when the culinary
processing of starches began have been difficult to track archaeologically.
Seed collecting is conventionally perceived to have been an irrelevant
activity among the Pleistocene foragers of southern Africa, on the grounds
of both technological difficulty in the processing of grains and the belief
that roots, fruits, and nuts, not cereals, were the basis for subsistence
for the past 100,000 years and further back in time. A large assemblage of
starch granules has been retrieved from the surfaces of Middle Stone Age
stone tools from Mozambique, showing that early Homo sapiens relied on grass
seeds starting at least 105,000 years ago, including those of sorghum
grasses.
PMID: 20019285

[Trawley Trash]

She doesn't really rebut anything. There are many variations
of the paleo idea. She picks on Voegtland who wrote the
original "cave man diet", but she doesn't explain why our
digestive tracts are so short compared to herbivores. She
doesn't seem to have read his book. Many of his observations
are interesting, but the thrust of his work has
been rejected by those who came after. We are omnivores like
chimpanzees.

Another person she picks on is Cordain. I don't follow him
either. He is another easy target. I saw a video of one
of his lectures. At the end of the lecture a plant in
the audience gets up and opines that "beer is definitely
paleo." The audience cheers. Then I imagine they abandoned
the lecture hall for the bar in the posh resort. His book
has some good info about fructose though.

I came to paleo by means of dietary challenges and allergy
tests. Only after I found I needed to eliminate grains,
legumes, and dairy did I realize I was paleo. I can't find
adequate justification in any of the books I have seen so
far.

The most interesting new idea is not generally considered
paleo, but it should be. In "Survival of the Fattest"
Stephen Cunnane argues from a nutritional standpoint that
humans must have evolved at shorelines. It is a sort of
semi-aquatic ape theory. Our need for dietary iodine
is telling. Without iodized salt humans don't do
well in continental areas. Neanderthal fossils look
suspiciously like modern humans with cretinism (a
form of iodine deficiency).

DNA analysis shows that the human line diverged from
chimpanzees 6-8 million years ago. Probably this
was when two ape chromosomes stuck together to make
human chromosome 2. We must have evolved separately
since then in different areas, because the chromosome
difference would have caused extremely low fertility
in cross breeding.

If early humans evolved at the sea shores rather than
the jungles, it would explain a lot. Due to climate
fluctuations the average sea level has generally been
lower than it is today. Most fossil evidence would
be buried under the seas. Early tools and dwellings
would have been fashioned from driftwood and decomposed
without a trace. Our paleolithic diet would have
been raw fish, seaweed, and coconut. Not much different
from the Kitavans.

In any event there is no one paleo diet, as she points
out in the video. Humans are not adapted to our modern
diets, and we never were perfectly adapted to a paleolithic
diet either. Individual variations are an important
feature of evolution, and they existed in paleolithic
times just as they do today.

[Trawley Trash]

She is a psychologist. Her books all have "sex" in the
title.

Brainworld magazine?

[randyf]

Trawley wrote:
>   She is a psychologist.

And is that that statement supposed to be of any import as regards her
arguments??

In fact, her academic affiliation and professional are in the field of
evolutionary biology.

See works for the College of Biology in the DEPARTMENT OF ECOLOGY,
EVOLUTION AND BEHAVIOR at the Univ of Mn.

See: http://www.cbs.umn.edu/eeb/contacts/marlene-zuk for more info.

Trawley wrote:
"Her books all have "sex" in the
title."

Again, what does that have to do with any of here arguments?
Here's the title of her most recent pop book ( not professional
publication)

"Paleofantasy: What Evolution Really Tells Us about Sex, Diet, and How
We Live [Hardcover]"
http://tinyurl.com/d86xwry

trawley wrote:
>   Brainworld magazine?

And again totally, completely irrelevant.
What's important about the link is what she's say in the interview.
You insinuation that anything called "Brainworld magaznie" has any
bearing on the issue is misguided (and that's putting it lightly).

See Gys's post above for more on her point of view.

Randy

[randyf]

Trawley wrote:
>   I came to paleo by means of dietary challenges and allergy
>   tests.  Only after I found I needed to eliminate grains,
>   legumes, and dairy did I realize I was paleo.

Good for you and her arguments do not deny what you've reported

What she is countering is the notion that All humans function better
on paleo due to our evolutionary past.
The central paleo argument is that everyone will do better
eliminating grains, beans and dairy. Just for diabetes alone (not to
mention heart disease, cancer, alzhiemers) data on humans alive to
today disproves this notion.

Just because you've had good luck with the diet doesn't mean that the
bulk of humanity will do better. And - that's the central paleo
argument. Namely humanity as a whole has not evolved to tolerate
grains (whole), beans and dairy and would Al would do better by
avoiding these foods. This is clearly contradicted lots of evidence.

Randy

[GysdeJongh]

Goto PubMed

<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/advanced>

and fill in : Warinner, Christina[Author]

I only see 2 articles. Here is the first one :

Am J Phys Anthropol. 2010 Mar;141(3):486-93. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.21222.
Brief communication: tissue isotopic enrichment associated with growth
depression in a pig: implications for archaeology and ecology.
Warinner C, Tuross N.
Source
Department of Anthropology, Harvard University, Cambridge, MA 02138, USA.
wari...@fas.harvard.edu
Abstract
Stressors such as fasting or poor diet quality are thought to potentially
alter the nitrogen and carbon isotopic values of animal tissues. In this
study, we demonstrate an inverse correlation between growth rate and
multiple tissue enrichment of delta(15)N, delta(13)C, and, to a lesser
degree, delta(18)O in a juvenile pig. A more complex pattern is observed
with respect to tissue deltaD and growth rate. The observed association
between growth rate and tissue isotopic fractionation has important
implications for paleodietary and migratory reconstructions of
archaeological populations that may have been affected by famine,
malnutrition, seasonal variation in food availability, and/or other factors
that can affect childhood growth rates.
PMID: 20052664

[GysdeJongh]

Trawley Trash wrote:
> On Sat, 6 Apr 2013 10:31:57 -0700 (PDT)
> randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:
>
>> Here's a Ted talking challenging basic paleo foundations
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
>>
>> Randy
>
> She doesn't really rebut anything. There are many variations
> of the paleo idea. She picks on Voegtland who wrote the
> original "cave man diet"

I think you might mean Volek
He is not the original inventer. Here is an aricle and a book from the
hero's together :

<http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/2/276.long>

Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Aug;86(2):276-84.
Low-carbohydrate nutrition and metabolism.
Westman EC, Feinman RD, Mavropoulos JC, Vernon MC, *Volek* JS, Wortman JA,
Yancy WS, Phinney SD.
Source
Department of Medicine, Duke University Medical Center, Durham, NC 27704,
USA. ewes...@duke.edu
Abstract
The persistence of an epidemic of obesity and type 2 diabetes suggests that
new nutritional strategies are needed if the epidemic is to be overcome. A
promising nutritional approach suggested by this thematic review is
carbohydrate restriction. Recent studies show that, under conditions of
carbohydrate restriction, fuel sources shift from glucose and fatty acids to
fatty acids and ketones, and that ad libitum-fed carbohydrate-restricted
diets lead to appetite reduction, weight loss, and improvement in surrogate
markers of cardiovascular disease.
PMID: 17684196

[randyf]

Here's the professional background of the young women from the Ted
talk.

http://christinawarinner.com/

[GysdeJongh]

sorry, forgot the books

<http://www.amazon.ca/Atkins-Diet-Diets-Books/s?ie=UTF8&page=1&rh=n%3A10929341%2Cp_lbr_books_authors_browse-bin%3ADr.%20Eric%20C.%20Westman>

New Atkins for a New You: The Ultimate Diet for Shedding Weight and Feeling
Great by Eric C. Westman, Stephen D. Phinney and Jeff S. Volek (Mar 2 2010)

Amazon has 470 results for Low Carb and 559 for Paleo Diet, the first is by
Loren Cordain :

The Paleo Diet: Lose Weight and Get Healthy by Eating the Foods You Were
Designed to Eat by Loren Cordain (Nov 19 2010)

The Caveman Diet has 170 results :

Free The Animal: Lose Weight & Fat With The Paleo Diet (aka The Caveman
Diet) V2 - NEWLY EXPANDED & UPDATED by Richard (Paleo Diet Expert) Nikoley
and Theresa Noll (Jan 13 2012)

Richard Nikoley is a self proclaimed "expert" with a blog

[randyf]

Trawley wrote:
> >  She doesn't really rebut anything.  There are many variations
> >  of the paleo idea.  She picks on Voegtland who wrote the
> >  original "cave man diet"

Gys responded:

> I think you might mean Volek
> He is not the original inventer. Here is an aricle and a book from the
> hero's together :

I think Trawley was referring to Walter L. Voegtlin,
He's a gastro doc that wrote a pop book (noit a science paper) in 1975
on the paleo diet. He has no articles on paleo in the science
literature as far as I can see.

The first article on paleo in a modern science jouranal ( as far as I
can tell) is this:

Paleolithic Nutrition — A Consideration of Its Nature and Current
Implications
S. Boyd Eaton, M.D., and Melvin Konner, Ph.D.
N Engl J Med 1985; 312:283-289January 31, 1985

There was a paper in the 1920's paper, I think, where a guy put
himself in on an Eskimo All meat diet for a year.

Randy

[outsider]

google "mcdonalds diet" 50,700 hits

[Trawley Trash]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 17:31:51 +0200
"GysdeJongh" <JonghSevenHundredElevenAtPlanet.nl> wrote:

> > She doesn't really rebut anything. There are many variations
> > of the paleo idea. She picks on Voegtland who wrote the
> > original "cave man diet"
>
>
>
> I think you might mean Volek
> He is not the original inventer. Here is an aricle and a book from
> the hero's together :
>
> <http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/86/2/276.long>

No. I meant Walter L. Voegtlin, author of /The/ /Stone/ /Age/ /Diet/
Vantage Press, 1975; ISBN 0-533-01314-3.

[Trawley Trash]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 11:30:02 -0700 (PDT)
randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> The first article on paleo in a modern science jouranal ( as far as I
> can tell) is this:
>
> Paleolithic Nutrition — A Consideration of Its Nature and Current
> Implications
> S. Boyd Eaton, M.D., and Melvin Konner, Ph.D.
> N Engl J Med 1985; 312:283-289January 31, 1985

Yes, and this article has a completely different diet from
gastroenterologist Voegtlin's. It recommends whole grains
and low-fat milk, for example.

[Trawley Trash]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:19:04 -0700 (PDT)
randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> What she is countering is the notion that All humans function better
> on paleo due to our evolutionary past.

All humans do not develop diabetes either.

> The central paleo argument is that everyone will do better
> eliminating grains, beans and dairy. Just for diabetes alone (not to
> mention heart disease, cancer, alzhiemers) data on humans alive to
> today disproves this notion.

There is no one central argument to paleo. The experts disagree with
each other on many points.

You might want to look at Dr. Staffan Lindeberg's work:
www.staffanlindeberg.com. His diet is not low carb, because
it includes root vegetables.

When I write about Kitava, I an referring to his work there. He
has also duplicated the results in Sweden.

[Trawley Trash]

On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:05:14 -0700 (PDT)
randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> Trawley wrote:
> > � She is a psychologist.
>
> And is that that statement supposed to be of any import as regards her
> arguments??
>
> In fact, her academic affiliation and professional are in the field of
> evolutionary biology.
>
> See works for the College of Biology in the DEPARTMENT OF ECOLOGY,
> EVOLUTION AND BEHAVIOR at the Univ of Mn.

Yes, a psychologist.

> See: http://www.cbs.umn.edu/eeb/contacts/marlene-zuk for more info.
>
> Trawley wrote:
> "Her books all have "sex" in the
> title."
>
> Again, what does that have to do with any of here arguments?
> Here's the title of her most recent pop book ( not professional
> publication)
>
> "Paleofantasy: What Evolution Really Tells Us about Sex, Diet, and How
> We Live [Hardcover]"
> http://tinyurl.com/d86xwry

She has another book that *also* has "sex" in the title. She's a pop
writer, and the video proved to me that she doesn't know what she
is talking about.

> trawley wrote:
> > � Brainworld magazine?
>
> And again totally, completely irrelevant.
> What's important about the link is what she's say in the interview.
> You insinuation that anything called "Brainworld magaznie" has any
> bearing on the issue is misguided (and that's putting it lightly).

OK. What does "Brainworld Magazine" have to do with diabetes?

> See Gys's post above for more on her point of view.
>
> Randy

Please bear in mind that I have been abused many times by
psychologists who claimed my allergies were psychological.
They cause blood glucose, and that is *not* psychological.

[mainframetech]

Depends how far back you want to go. 10,000 years might be a little
before grains were cultivated in many cultures, and I don't think they
had 'low-fat' cows then either. To know what a paleo diet consisted
of, it would seem wise to see what chimpanzees eat today. Mostly
fruits, roots, insects and other opportunity foods, and an occasional
monkey that they could catch and devour raw. You might argue about
how many animals they caught and killed too.

Chris

[Maya Zuiderweg]

Trawley Trash beweerde :

Neaderthalers were of a completely different build (much heavier
skeleton build than homo sapiens) Nothing with cretinism at all.

>
> DNA analysis shows that the human line diverged from
> chimpanzees 6-8 million years ago. Probably this
> was when two ape chromosomes stuck together to make
> human chromosome 2. We must have evolved separately
> since then in different areas, because the chromosome
> difference would have caused extremely low fertility
> in cross breeding.

Neanderthalers were already in the northern regions, adaptation to
colder climate followed. They ate lots of meat.
One theory says that when the big meat-deliverers (e.g. mammoths
etcetc) died out, they had not enough to eat, the homo sapiens were of
another build, had other food habits, so the Neanderthal vanished.
M.

[randyf]

On Apr 8, 4:21 am, Trawley Trash <tr...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Apr 2013 08:05:14 -0700 (PDT)
>
> randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:
> > Trawley wrote:
> > > She is a psychologist.
>
> > And is that that statement supposed to be of any import as regards her
> > arguments??
>
> > In fact, her academic affiliation and professional are in the field of
> > evolutionary biology.
>
> > See works for the College of Biology in the   DEPARTMENT OF ECOLOGY,
> > EVOLUTION AND BEHAVIOR at the Univ of Mn.
>
>   Yes, a psychologist.
>

> > See:http://www.cbs.umn.edu/eeb/contacts/marlene-zukfor more info.

>
> > Trawley wrote:
> > "Her books all have "sex" in the
> >   title."
>
> > Again, what does that have to do with any of here arguments?
> > Here's the title of her most recent pop book ( not professional
> > publication)
>
> > "Paleofantasy: What Evolution Really Tells Us about Sex, Diet, and How
> > We Live [Hardcover]"
> >  http://tinyurl.com/d86xwry

Trawley wrote:
>   She has another book that *also* has "sex" in the title.  She's a pop
>   writer, and the video proved to me that she doesn't know what she
>   is talking about.

She's also a scientist that got a slew of papers in pubmed reviewed
journals.

Also- Your definitely not paying attention. The lady in the video was
a Differnet scientist that also critical of of the currently "paleo"
arguments for eating like a (make believe)cave man.

>   OK.  What does "Brainworld Magazine" have to do with diabetes?

Really??. Brainworld Magazine had an interview by one of the critics
of the current "paleo" dogma. And this was a different scientist that
was in the video.

You have no problems quoting aged self published material (38 years
ago) promoting the "paleo" diet, while refusing to discussing other,
more recent reports. All you've done is resort to baseless ad hominem
attacks.

Trawley wrote:
>   Please bear in mind that I have been abused many times by
>   psychologists who claimed my allergies were psychological.
>   They cause blood glucose, and that is *not* psychological.

So sorry, but irrelevant.

Randy

[randyf]

>   There is no one central argument to paleo.  The experts disagree with
>   each other on many points.

Paleo experts may disagree on certain issues, but they all agree on
the following:
No grains,
No beans
No dairy

That's my main poinht of contention. There's lots of data showing
natural whole grains and beans are positive for diabetics. That
includes prevention and treatment.
It humans were genetically unsuited for these foods why are the some
many health benefits?

Trawley wrote:
>   You might want to look at Dr. Staffan Lindeberg's work:
>  www.staffanlindeberg.com.  His diet is not low carb, because
>   it includes root vegetables.

I am familiar with his work.
This diet is also Not low carb because it includes fruit and that
include fructose.

Randy

[None Given]

On Monday, April 8, 2013 4:43:48 PM UTC-7, randyf wrote:
> >   There is no one central argument to paleo.  The experts disagree with
>
> >   each other on many points.
>
>
>
> Paleo experts may disagree on certain issues, but they all agree on
>
> the following:
>
> No grains,
>
> No beans
>
> No dairy
>
>
>
> That's my main poinht of contention. There's lots of data showing
>
> natural whole grains and beans are positive for diabetics. That
>
> includes prevention and treatment.
>
> It humans were genetically unsuited for these foods why are the some
>
> many health benefits?

LOL. Measure your BG after eating the wheat products. Quite enough
to discredit the grain benefits for those on the border of T2 DM.

[outsider]

On 4/9/2013 2:00 AM, None Given wrote:
> On Monday, April 8, 2013 4:43:48 PM UTC-7, randyf wrote:
>>> There is no one central argument to paleo. The experts disagree with
>>
>>> each other on many points.
>>
>>
>>
>> Paleo experts may disagree on certain issues, but they all agree on
>>
>> the following:
>>
>> No grains,
>>
>> No beans
>>
>> No dairy
>>
>>
>>
>> That's my main poinht of contention. There's lots of data showing
>>
>> natural whole grains and beans are positive for diabetics. That
>>
>> includes prevention and treatment.
>>
>> It humans were genetically unsuited for these foods why are the some
>>
>> many health benefits?

> LOL. Measure your BG after eating the wheat products. Quite enough
> to discredit the grain benefits for those on the border of T2 DM.

Nonsense.

My cardiologist would probably agree with you, but I do not. My
breakfast these days (and for some time in the past) consists of
1/4 cup of Bob's Red Mill 10 grain hot cereal (100% whole grain),
3/4 cups of water, (I add one shake of salt) cook 3 min 22
seconds[1] in microwave in 2 stages, stir between stages, add 1
package of splenda, and inject the same amount of insulin it used
to take to offset 2 eggs over easy and one link sausage.

My cardiologist calls all grains "comfort food." The cereal is 28
grams total carbs, 5 grams fiber, and 0 sugars with 140 calories.
This breakfast holds me better than the 2 eggs and a link sausage
ever did.

I trust my cardiologist on cardio topics.

"Ingredients:
whole grain wheat, whole grain corn, whole grain rye, whole grain
triticale (wheat), whole grain oats, soy beans, whole grain millet,
whole grain barley, whole grain brown rice, oat bran, flaxseed"

http://www.bobsredmill.com/10-grain-hot-cereal.html?&cat=9

I have no financial interest in this company.

Face it, a 28 gram carbs breakfast is pretty reasonable.

[1] 2:22 punches in on the microwave keyboard nicely. The product
boils up quite high, so be forewarned not to use a shallow bowl.
I use a 2 cup+ extra tall Anchor brand pyrex measuring cup to
cook and serve the product. It barely doesn't boil over if your
contents are accurately measured. Stir. Cook an additional 60
seconds. Allow a bit of cooling. Add splenda, stir. Enjoy! I've
been buying this product at the discount bread store for $3 a
bag. I guess I'd better stock up. The retail price on the web
page shocked me.

[randyf]

You have no problem citing science publications out the kazoo when
they support your views, and no problem ignoring research and
resorting to personal anecdotes when they don't.

The data on the benefit of whole fiber grain/bean intake and diabetes
has been well established for decades.

The only grains I eat are high fiber cereal/oat bran/barley/tortilias/
rice and *real* whole wheat bread (not stuff sold at the super market)
when I go out of my way to find it. These have little effect on my bg
levels. Generally I avoid milled flour products, whole grain or not.

Have you considered that your avoidance of carbs leads to carb
intolerance. Low carb diets (<30%) reduce insulin sensitivity. That's
not necessarily bad, but don't blame carbs for your bg reaction, it's
your insulin insensitivity.

Randy

[None Given]

140 calorie breakfast? Lunch? and Dinner?
Or is that in addition to the 2 eggs and sausage link?

I am not consistently sedentary and sometimes lead a very
vigorous lifestyle where low calorie intakes are undoable.
Understand, I can do it when I have greater control.
Running on an empty stomach in the morning is useful.

I prefer legumes over grains. Whether that is right, I am
not so sure. I have been fairly heavy into the nuts and seeds at times.
I've come to suspect the seeds and peanuts to be not completely
ideal as foods due to the types of fats found therein.

>
>
>
> I trust my cardiologist on cardio topics.
>
>
>
> "Ingredients:
>
> whole grain wheat, whole grain corn, whole grain rye, whole grain
>
> triticale (wheat), whole grain oats, soy beans, whole grain millet,
>
> whole grain barley, whole grain brown rice, oat bran, flaxseed"
>
>
>
> http://www.bobsredmill.com/10-grain-hot-cereal.html?&cat=9
>
>
>
> I have no financial interest in this company.
>
>
>
> Face it, a 28 gram carbs breakfast is pretty reasonable.

I must admit that doesn't sound crazy.

>
>
>
> [1] 2:22 punches in on the microwave keyboard nicely. The product
>
> boils up quite high, so be forewarned not to use a shallow bowl.
>
> I use a 2 cup+ extra tall Anchor brand pyrex measuring cup to
>
> cook and serve the product. It barely doesn't boil over if your
>
> contents are accurately measured. Stir. Cook an additional 60
>
> seconds. Allow a bit of cooling. Add splenda, stir. Enjoy! I've
>
> been buying this product at the discount bread store for $3 a
>
> bag. I guess I'd better stock up. The retail price on the web
>
> page shocked me.

I don't trust Splenda. Plus I'd add no sugars added heavy cream
if I went this route.

[Trawley Trash]

I think that cretinism does that, along with mental retardation.
I am going on what Cunnane says, haven't looked farther.

> > DNA analysis shows that the human line diverged from
> > chimpanzees 6-8 million years ago. Probably this
> > was when two ape chromosomes stuck together to make
> > human chromosome 2. We must have evolved separately
> > since then in different areas, because the chromosome
> > difference would have caused extremely low fertility
> > in cross breeding.
> Neanderthalers were already in the northern regions, adaptation to
> colder climate followed. They ate lots of meat.
> One theory says that when the big meat-deliverers (e.g. mammoths
> etcetc) died out, they had not enough to eat, the homo sapiens were
> of another build, had other food habits, so the Neanderthal vanished.
> M.

The timeline here is important. Humans diverged from
Chimpanzees say 7 million years ago. Neanderthals emerged
roughly 500 thousand years ago. What happened during those
6.5 million years?

Yes Neanderthals did adapt to colder climates. They moved north
out of Africa and adapted to the cold in Europe. According
to wikipedia Neanderthal is "an extinct species or subspecies
of the genus Homo which is closely related to modern humans."

The time overlap with modern humans is long; the most
recent Neanderthal finds date around 30 thousand years ago.
We know that they did interbreed with modern humans, because
we carry a significant amount of Neanderthal DNA.

[Trawley Trash]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 15:20:56 -0700 (PDT)
mainframetech <mainfr...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> > � Yes, and this article has a completely different diet from

> > � gastroenterologist Voegtlin's. �It recommends whole grains
> > � and low-fat milk, for example.
>
> Depends how far back you want to go. 10,000 years might be a little
> before grains were cultivated in many cultures, and I don't think they
> had 'low-fat' cows then either. To know what a paleo diet consisted
> of, it would seem wise to see what chimpanzees eat today. Mostly
> fruits, roots, insects and other opportunity foods, and an occasional
> monkey that they could catch and devour raw. You might argue about
> how many animals they caught and killed too.

Ten thousand years ago is when settled agricultural civilization
became widespread. Humans diverged from chimpanzees seven million
years ago. This is plenty of time for evolution to alter the diet.
We have a significantly improved ability to digest starches for
one thing. Chimps may have a better ability to tolerate fructose,
or perhaps they just don't live long enough to develop diabetes.

Voegtlin noted that the length of our digestive tracts is consistent
with being carnivores, but others have noted that our teeth suggest
otherwise. The way out of this dilemma might be that we have
significantly adapted to the use of fire. Cooked food is far
easier to digest. Especially root vegetables and tubers that
are marginal foodstuffs for chimpanzees become a rich source
of calories when they are cooked. Although still disputed,
the earliest discoveries of fire with humans date about
1.5 million years ago. I find it hard to believe that humans
did not discover fire about they same time they began chipping
obsidian tools. The sparks that are given off would have led
to accidental fires and then to controlled fires.

[Trawley Trash]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:43:48 -0700 (PDT)
randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> > � There is no one central argument to paleo. �The experts disagree

> > with each other on many points.
>
> Paleo experts may disagree on certain issues, but they all agree on
> the following:
> No grains,
> No beans
> No dairy

No, they do not. Eaton and Conner recommend low fat milk and
whole grain bread.

> That's my main poinht of contention. There's lots of data showing
> natural whole grains and beans are positive for diabetics. That
> includes prevention and treatment.
> It humans were genetically unsuited for these foods why are the some
> many health benefits?

How come I don't see those health benefits when I eat them?

"Empty arguments with words cannot (in any way) compare to a test
which show practical results"

-- Ma Chun, a fourth century Chinese engineer.

> Trawley wrote:
> > � You might want to look at Dr. Staffan Lindeberg's work:
> > �www.staffanlindeberg.com. �His diet is not low carb, because
> > � it includes root vegetables.
>
> I am familiar with his work.
> This diet is also Not low carb because it includes fruit and that
> include fructose.
>
> Randy

Sorry. Fruit does not always contain fructose. Limes and
avocados have no fructose for example. Most fruits have
been bred for increased sweetness compared to their wild
counterparts. That means increased fructose. Before the
introduction of agriculture fruit was not as sweet as
it is today.

Lindeberg allows fruit, but he does not emphasize it. The fruit
available on Kitava was not high in fructose as far as I can tell.
Pineapple used to be a low-fructose fruit until around 1960 when
the new sweeter varieties showed up in supermarkets. Modern
coconuts are also bred to be sweeter than wild varieties.

[Trawley Trash]

On Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:06:52 -0700 (PDT)

randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> Trawley wrote:

> > � She has another book that *also* has "sex" in the title. �She's a

> > pop writer, and the video proved to me that she doesn't know what
> > she is talking about.
>
> She's also a scientist that got a slew of papers in pubmed reviewed
> journals.
>
> Also- Your definitely not paying attention. The lady in the video was
> a Differnet scientist that also critical of of the currently "paleo"
> arguments for eating like a (make believe)cave man.
>
>
> > � OK. �What does "Brainworld Magazine" have to do with diabetes?
>
> Really??. Brainworld Magazine had an interview by one of the critics
> of the current "paleo" dogma. And this was a different scientist that
> was in the video.

That is not what you said before!

>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMOjVYgYaG8
>>
>> Randy

>Here's a print inverview with the same presenter:
>http://tinyurl.com/c2243ma

(also Randy).

I didn't check the names; I just trusted what you wrote.
Guess I shouldn't have done that.

> You have no problems quoting aged self published material (38 years
> ago) promoting the "paleo" diet, while refusing to discussing other,
> more recent reports. All you've done is resort to baseless ad hominem
> attacks.

Please note that I did *not* quote Voegtlin saying I approved of
his dietary advice. I quoted him for historical importance and
because some of what he wrote about comparison of digestive
tracts was similar to results from bone composition in the
video. Results that I didn't think backed up her assertions.

So far you have given us a video and a publicity interview in
"Brainworld" magazine together with the resume of a different
woman who is *not* a psychologist.

I take my views on root vegetables from Lindeberg. Biochemistry
from Robb Wolf. Fructose from Cordain. All of them recent.
I do not agree completely with any of them.

[outsider]

Nope. That's the total breakfast that holds me till lunch.

Lunch and dinner are more calorie intensive. In fact, I need to
lose weight once again.

> I am not consistently sedentary and sometimes lead a very
> vigorous lifestyle where low calorie intakes are undoable.
> Understand, I can do it when I have greater control.
> Running on an empty stomach in the morning is useful.

I usually have a ham and cheese sandwich with some secondary
food for lunch.

Dinner is generally the heavy meal of the day sporting a goodly
serving of meat, a green veggie (usually string beans from my
own garden) and a carby side dish.

I put my total caloric intake at about 1800 per day. The mid
afternoon cappuccino (boiling water and powdered stuff) is
90 calories and 16 grams of carbs.

I've gotten much better about my carbo-sinning. I need badly to
lose about 50 pounds. Hopefully adjusting diet and increasing
activities (as I continue to recover from December's surgery)
will help melt those pounds away.

[outsider]

On 4/9/2013 1:19 PM, Susan wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On 4/9/2013 2:00 PM, None Given wrote:

Guess what, outsider wrote!

>> "Ingredients:
>>>
>>> whole grain wheat, whole grain corn, whole grain rye, whole grain
>>>
>>> triticale (wheat), whole grain oats, soy beans, whole grain millet,
>>>
>>> whole grain barley, whole grain brown rice, oat bran, flaxseed"
>

> Unless these are kernels and seeds, unground, they are not whole grains,
> which are good for you because they pass through your body completely
> undigested.

Much cheaper to eat ground wood chips then, no? The results are exactly
the same.

> Once ground, they're processed flours/meals.

"Processed" means a lot more than having the husks broken off.

> Susan

Funny girl. You *know* who you're talking to, but you snip the name. Is
that bitchy, or what? What kind of karma are you acquiring?

Classic of the New York type.

[None Given]

On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 11:19:25 AM UTC-7, Susan wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
>
>
> On 4/9/2013 2:00 PM, None Given wrote:
>

> > "Ingredients:
>
> >>
>
> >> whole grain wheat, whole grain corn, whole grain rye, whole grain
>
> >>
>
> >> triticale (wheat), whole grain oats, soy beans, whole grain millet,
>
> >>
>
> >> whole grain barley, whole grain brown rice, oat bran, flaxseed"
>
>
>

> Unless these are kernels and seeds, unground, they are not whole grains,
>
> which are good for you because they pass through your body completely
>
> undigested.
>
>
>

> Once ground, they're processed flours/meals.
>
>
>

> Susan

What? It's called chewing and digestion. Or is this an effort
at humor? Chewed sunflower seed, chewed peanuts, chewed sesame
seeds are pretty unprocessed and still food. Too many omega-6s
IMO though with more antioxidants.

coconut maybe better...............Trig

[None Given]

OK the operation that explains a lot. I forget it nature. Often
the shock of an operation causes weight loss though inactivity can
pile it back on minus the muscle.

[Canth]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:41:20 +0100, Chris Hogg <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

>On Tue, 9 Apr 2013 03:31:55 -0700, Trawley Trash
><tr...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I find it hard to believe that humans
>> did not discover fire about they same time they began chipping
>> obsidian tools. The sparks that are given off would have led
>> to accidental fires and then to controlled fires.
>

>Rather by-the-way and OT, but does flint or obsidian give off sparks
>when being knapped? I ask, because I have always understood that
>sparks are only generated when flint strikes steel, and are caused by
>tiny chips of steel being created and initially heated by the impact,
>to a point where they become pyrophoric and oxidise with the
>generation of much heat, i.e. form a spark. Examples are flintlock
>pistols and muskets, and 'tinder boxes', i.e. a flint and steel, with
>some dry tinder, in a container. Flint on flint has no such pyrophoric
>potential.
Apparently Iron Pyrites also produces sparks and was used,
particularly in its marcasite form, as a precursor to steel.

http://www.primitiveways.com/marcasite%20and%20flint.html

AS! ds++:+++ a++ c+++ p++ t+ f-- S+ p+ e++ h++ r++ n++ i+ P+ m++ M
I've been ignored by better people than you.

[Maya Zuiderweg]

None Given had uiteengezet :

Good for your dentist's money-heap.
M.

[Maya Zuiderweg]

outsider schreef :

<snip>

But: 1800 re caloric intake?? If I use a bit less, I'll get too thin.
What bothers me: I have quite a sedentary life, and 1800 kcal does not
put any weight on me.
Maybe you are a smaller person? I am 1,78.
But then I am a woman too, and women shouldnt eat as much as men.
So?
M.

[randyf]

randy wrote:
"Paleo experts may disagree on certain issues, but they all agree on
the following:
No grains,
No  beans
No dairy"

trawley wrote:
" No, they do not.  Eaton and Conner recommend low fat milk and
  whole grain bread"

That's very misleading as you've distorted the context of Eaton's
position.
All the researchers (and most of the non-research enthusiasts) define
as paleo diet as not including grains,beans and dairy (among other
things).
This includes Courdain, Lindeberg, Wolfe.
Also all the research with living subjects totally restrict All
grains, beans, dairy from the paleo group.

From Lineberg:
A popular diet in Sweden today is the palaeolithic diet, where lean
meat, fish, vegetables, fruit, roots and nuts are dietary staples,
while cereals, dairy products, salt and processed fat and sugar are
avoided.
http://www.foodandnutritionresearch.net/index.php/fnr/article/view/1526

From Wikipedia:
Paleolithic diet consists mainly of fish, grass-fed pasture raised
meats, eggs, vegetables, fruit, fungi, roots, and nuts, and excludes
grains, legumes, dairy products, potatoes, refined salt, refined
sugar, and processed oils.[1][3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo_diet

You are also distorting Eaton's position. He doesn't believe that
whole wheat bread and low fat milk are optimal for a paleo diet. His
position is that if you are in good health with good bio markers you
can add SMALLl amounts of these non-paleo foods without harm. He calls
this "Paleo Light" as differentiated not Paleo Strong where these
foods should be eliminated. According to Eaton if you've got any
health issues dairy and grains should be avoided.

Here's a recent video of Eaton where he makes this position very
clear:
http://vimeo.com/57311606

Check the talk from 6 - 10 minutes in.

Randy

[GysdeJongh]

outsider wrote:
> On 4/9/2013 1:00 PM, None Given wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 9, 2013 3:27:56 AM UTC-7, outsider wrote:
>>> On 4/9/2013 2:00 AM, None Given wrote:


> I usually have a ham and cheese sandwich with some secondary
> food for lunch.
>
> Dinner is generally the heavy meal of the day sporting a goodly
> serving of meat, a green veggie (usually string beans from my
> own garden) and a carby side dish.
>
> I put my total caloric intake at about 1800 per day. The mid
> afternoon cappuccino (boiling water and powdered stuff) is
> 90 calories and 16 grams of carbs.
>
> I've gotten much better about my carbo-sinning. I need badly to
> lose about 50 pounds. Hopefully adjusting diet and increasing
> activities (as I continue to recover from December's surgery)
> will help melt those pounds away.

Seems an Ok plan Imo,
may the force be with you outsider
Gys

[GysdeJongh]

Canth wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 13:41:20 +0100, Chris Hogg

>> Rather by-the-way and OT, but does flint or obsidian give off sparks
>> when being knapped? I ask, because I have always understood that
>> sparks are only generated when flint strikes steel, and are caused by
>> tiny chips of steel being created and initially heated by the impact,
>> to a point where they become pyrophoric and oxidise with the
>> generation of much heat, i.e. form a spark. Examples are flintlock
>> pistols and muskets, and 'tinder boxes', i.e. a flint and steel, with
>> some dry tinder, in a container. Flint on flint has no such
>> pyrophoric potential.

> Apparently Iron Pyrites also produces sparks and was used,
> particularly in its marcasite form, as a precursor to steel.
>
> http://www.primitiveways.com/marcasite%20and%20flint.html

thanks Canth, nice to meet again :)

<http://imgur.com/gallery/yqvJy>

Gys

[outsider]

Thank you. And with you as well.

[Trawley Trash]

I observed the sparks cracking rocks for fun as a boy,
so I know that steel is not necessary. The rocks in our
back yard were heavy in iron; well water came up
full of rust.

[Trawley Trash]

On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:55:18 -0700 (PDT)
randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> randy wrote:
> "Paleo experts may disagree on certain issues, but they all agree on
> the following:
> No grains,
> No �beans
> No dairy"

> trawley wrote:
> " No, they do not. �Eaton and Conner recommend low fat milk and
> � whole grain bread"
>
> That's very misleading as you've distorted the context of Eaton's
> position.

Not surprising since accessing any of their papers only produces
a blank abstract. I had to take their views from a book review of
their subsequent book.

> All the researchers (and most of the non-research enthusiasts) define
> as paleo diet as not including grains,beans and dairy (among other
> things).
> This includes Courdain, Lindeberg, Wolfe.
> Also all the research with living subjects totally restrict All
> grains, beans, dairy from the paleo group.

As do I. But "experts" Eaton and Conner genuflect to whole grains
and milk. At least according to the book review. Their approach
is to match paleolithich consumption of macronutrients like protein,
fat and starch using modern foods such as wheat and dairy. But
we are adapted to a wide variations in macronutrients, so I don't
think that is the problem. I suspect the problem is food intolerance
to the newly introduced foods.

> From Lineberg:
> A popular diet in Sweden today is the palaeolithic diet, where lean
> meat, fish, vegetables, fruit, roots and nuts are dietary staples,
> while cereals, dairy products, salt and processed fat and sugar are
> avoided.
> http://www.foodandnutritionresearch.net/index.php/fnr/article/view/1526

Yes, Lindeberg comes closest to my view. Particularly because he
allows roots, while other proponents do not. Better have your
flack jacked on if you dare to mention potato in Cordain's forum.

> From Wikipedia:
> Paleolithic diet consists mainly of fish, grass-fed pasture raised
> meats, eggs, vegetables, fruit, fungi, roots, and nuts, and excludes
> grains, legumes, dairy products, potatoes, refined salt, refined
> sugar, and processed oils.[1][3][4]
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo_diet
>
> You are also distorting Eaton's position. He doesn't believe that
> whole wheat bread and low fat milk are optimal for a paleo diet. His
> position is that if you are in good health with good bio markers you
> can add SMALLl amounts of these non-paleo foods without harm. He calls
> this "Paleo Light" as differentiated not Paleo Strong where these
> foods should be eliminated. According to Eaton if you've got any
> health issues dairy and grains should be avoided.

That is not the way the book review presented it.

> Here's a recent video of Eaton where he makes this position very
> clear:
> http://vimeo.com/57311606

Sorry. I want to read the paper. I insist. Once in a while I will
watch a video, but to refuse to supply the paper is simply
insulting.

> Check the talk from 6 - 10 minutes in.
>
> Randy

Nope. Not gonna watch it. Put it in writing or shut up.

How come you ignored the rest of what I wrote and concentrate
instead of my supposed misunderstanding of a paper I am not
allowed to read?

[randyf]

On Apr 11, 10:55 am, Trawley Trash <tr...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Apr 2013 09:55:18 -0700 (PDT)
>
> randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:
> > randy wrote:
> >  "Paleo experts may disagree on certain issues, but they all agree on
> >  the following:
> >  No grains,
> >  No  beans
> >  No dairy"
> > trawley wrote:
> > " No, they do not.  Eaton and Conner recommend low fat milk and
> >   whole grain bread"

Randy Wrote:
"That's very misleading as you've distorted the context of Eaton's
position."

Trawley replied

 " Not surprising since accessing any of their papers only produces
  a blank abstract."

reply:
Nonsense. Many of their Full papers are readibly available on the web.
I even provided lins in my last email in this thread.

trawley wrote:
I had to take their views from a book review of
  their subsequent book."

Ok, so you refuse to read papers that are simple a click away. You
refuse to watch a very recent video of Eaton( the man himself) and
instead source all your authority on a book review.
Brilliant!

randy wrote earlier:

" Here's a recent video of Eaton where he makes this position very
clear:
http://vimeo.com/57311606"

trawley replied:

"Sorry.  I want to read the paper.  I insist.  Once in a while I will
watch a video, but to refuse to supply the paper is simply
  insulting."

So you'll read a book review of a some book (you haven't said what
book), but you refuse to watch a recent lecture of the original
authors ( and an author you continually mischaracterize) of the paleo
diet in the science literature. You had no trouble watching Lusting
video a few months ago. Of course he supported you views. Like the old
tale of monkeys with hands over their eyes and fingers in their ears.
Amazing!!

Randy

[randyf]

Trawley wrote:
"Sorry. I want to read the paper. I insist. Once in a while I will
watch a video, but to refuse to supply the paper is simply
insulting."

Huh??
What paper am I refusing to provide??

Randy

[Trawley Trash]

Eaton, S. Boyd; Konner, Melvin. (1985) Paleolithic Nutrition. The
New England Journal of Medicine. 312 (5): 283-289. PMID 2981409.

There are two papers I would like to read. One is their original
1985 paper in NEJM, and the other is their 25-year retrospective.
I went to google, found the links, and I get blank pages with
a certain amount of reference info but *no* *text*, not even
an abstract. I have been looking for these papers for months.

I think it was Gys who set me off by claiming the "inventor"
of paleo (who was someone I never heard of) first published his
invention in 2007. The concept goes back at least to Voegtlin
in 1975.

While paleolithic diet has come to mean restricitons on dairy,
grains, and legumes, that has not always been the case. Obviously
paleolithic diet is based on some conception of what our paleolithic
ancestors ate. As our knowlege of this changes, the diet also changes.

What I am attempting to do now is tie beans, dairy, and legumes
together via biochemistry. The underlying problem may be intolerance
to certain sugars that were not common in the diet of our paleo
ancestors. That means fructose and galactose intolerance. These
sugars are not metabolized directly, but they must be processed
by the liver.

[randyf]

trawley wrote:
  "There are two papers I would like to read.  One is their original
  1985 paper in NEJM, and the other is their 25-year retrospective.
  I went to google, found the links, and I get blank pages with
  a certain amount of reference info but *no* *text*, not even
  an abstract.  I have been looking for these papers for months."

In addition to the links Chris provided here's a link to the full 25
year prospective paper you requested:
http://www.naturaleater.com/science-articles/Paleolithic-Nutrition-Twenty-Five%20Years-Later-Eaton.pdf.

I know your resistant to viewing a video, but I highly recommend this
piece by Eaton (the scientist that introduced this concept to the
American science community). It's a very good pro paleo piece by an
engaging presenter:

http://vimeo.com/57311606

trawley wrote:
  "While paleolithic diet has come to mean restricitons on dairy,
  grains, and legumes, that has not always been the case.  "

Again, untrue.

trawley wrote:
"The underlying problem may be intolerance
to certain sugars that were not common in the diet of our paleo
ancestors.  That means fructose and galactose intolerance.  These
sugars are not metabolized directly, but they must be processed
by the liver."

Here's a 2010 by Lineberg where folks were trialed on a mediterranean-
like vs a paleo diet( no dairy, grains, legumes). Even though the
paleo group ate less total carbs, they ate more simple sugars.
Probably due to the unlimitied fruit availability on the paleo diet.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3009971/

Randy

[Trawley Trash]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:28:07 +0100
Chris Hogg <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> Took me all of 5 seconds to find. Full text.
>
> http://lucyindaskywithdiamonds.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Eaton-NEJM.pdf

OK so my search in the usual places turned up only reference data,
because the paper is an old one. Someone scanned the paper copy
and has made it available as an image in a pdf. The text in the
image is not searchable, and it will not show up in search engines.

I note that the pdf contains a second image of tables of potassium
content of various foods. I infer from this that the scanned pdf
was put online for special reason and not routinely available.
It is not an official copy, but much better than what I had.

Thank you for this.

I note that the paper concentrates on the nutritional values
of the paleolithic diet and does not mention even the possibility
of food intolerances. The recommended diet presumably came from
their subsequent book which had a third co-author.

> At least part of a retrospective is at http://tinyurl.com/cvtd79a, but
> it's a book and you don't get all the pages.

All I get is a fancy graphic saying "You have reached a page that is
unavailable for viewing, or you have reached your viewing limit
for this book."

> Another related paper at http://ncp.sagepub.com/content/25/6/594.short
> but you only get the abstract.

Yes, this is the review paper I referred to. The abstract is somewhat
helpful. Here is the first sentence:

! A quarter century has passed since the first publication of the
! evolutionary discordance hypothesis, according to which departures
! from the nutrition and activity patterns of our hunter-gatherer
! ancestors have contributed greatly and in specifically definable ways
! to the endemic chronic diseases of modern civilization. ...

This only confirms what I said. They consider only the nutritional
aspects and ignore the possibility of food intolerances. A diet which
contains whole wheat and low-fat milk is consistent with their work.

I also note that they ignore Voegtlin who published his version
ten years previous. A paleolithic diet based on the Inuit that
was entirely carnivorous. Do I have to point out that that also
excludes wheat, dairy, and beans?

> Failing that, plenty of possibilities to explore searching Google
> scholar, see http://tinyurl.com/bnswzbk

I do quite a bit of that. That is how I found Cunnane and the shore
based hypothesis. It seemed logical to me that humans had to learn
to walk in the water. When I did a search I found he has already
found a number of nutritional reasons why early humans must have
evolved at the shore. Forget Og the caveman, our ancestors were
more like Don the beachcomber.

[Trawley Trash]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:04:17 -0700 (PDT)
randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> In addition to the links Chris provided here's a link to the full 25
> year prospective paper you requested:
> http://www.naturaleater.com/science-articles/Paleolithic-Nutrition-Twenty-Five%20Years-Later-Eaton.pdf

Looks like we are all agreed on grains-dairy-legumes
restriction. How this comes from the analysis of nutrients
is not clear. Some of the references are the same as
Lindeberg's, but he doesn't reference Lindeberg directly.

Many thanks for this. Will probably have more comments after
I have read it completely.

[None Given]

My teeth are pretty good. Though some evidence of night grinding in the past.
I do wish that when I was young that my diet was much lower in carbs and sugars.
I'll bet I wouldn't wear corrective lenses or have any fillings.

[Maya Zuiderweg]

None Given schreef :

You chewed a coconut?
M.

[Trawley Trash]

On Fri, 12 Apr 2013 07:04:17 -0700 (PDT)
randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> In addition to the links Chris provided here's a link to the full 25
> year prospective paper you requested:
> http://www.naturaleater.com/science-articles/Paleolithic-Nutrition-Twenty-Five%20Years-Later-Eaton.pdf.

It is interesting to compare the 1985 paper with the 2010
retrospective. Both papers contain extensive discussions
of macronutrients (fats, carbs, etc) and suggest that something
about the macronutrients in our modern diet causes the problem.
In the 1985 paper beans (legumes) are explicitly recommended.
The 2010 retrospective contains a similar discussion of
macronutrients, but weakens the modern dietary suggestions to say
that whole grains *might* be on the third tier of a paleo
food pyramid. Then they go on to cite Fassetto's experiment
which shows some remarkable early results in reducing insulin
resistance with the paleo diet. Neither paper discusses
evolution or food intolerance, but the conclusion of the
(European published) retrospective contains something of
a rant against creationism:

! Unfortunately many Americans have yet to accept the basic
! facts and theory of evolution, an obvious obstacle to offering
! everyone the paradigm we advocate...

Perhaps that is some kind of apology for the obvious omission.

> I know your resistant to viewing a video, but I highly recommend this
> piece by Eaton (the scientist that introduced this concept to the
> American science community). It's a very good pro paleo piece by an
> engaging presenter:

Not interested. Obviously I am already pro paleo. Going beyond
evolution to biochemistry, I think there may be a connection between
sugar intolerances and the grains-dairy-legumes restriction. Not
being a biochemist I would rather study this before I
say more. But in my case the information provided in
the hfiinfo.proboards.com forum is helping me broaden my diet.
For example I do not have to restrict all dairy: only lactose.
So thoroughly aged cheeses are OK. I may also be able to eat
yogurt *if* I am certain that it contains no added sugar except
possibly pure dextrose.

Grains contain fructans which digest into fructose. Dairy contains
lactose which digests into galactose. Beans contain galactans which
also digest into galactose. These sugars are removed by fermentation,
and they may be degraded by cooking. So it is possible that the
paleo diet can be replaced by fermentation and modern cooking methods.
That will take months for me to explore.

[randyf]

Trawley wrote:
>   In the 1985 paper beans (legumes) are explicitly recommended.

Didn't see where beans were *explicitly recommended". Could you point
that out?

He does explicitly say, in the final section of the paper (1985
paper), that our paleo ancestors ate only meat, fruit and vegetables.
See the first paragraph in the last section.

Randy

[None Given]

Only the meat. The wood shop vise cracks the nut.
Wood working for food preparation, a male's solution..........Trig

[Trawley Trash]

On Mon, 15 Apr 2013 17:24:16 -0700 (PDT)
randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> Trawley wrote:
> > � In the 1985 paper beans (legumes) are explicitly recommended.
>
> Didn't see where beans were *explicitly recommended". Could you point
> that out?

I was referring to page 285 under the heading "vegetable foods".

! Except for Eskimos and other high latitude peoples, hunter-gatherers
! typically use many species of wild plants for food. Roots, beans,
! tubers and fruits are the most common major dietary constituents...

Because of this recommendation of beans as paleo and the mention
of whole grains in their retrospective, the authors seem out of
step with other paleo diet experts. Their citation of Fassetto's
work misses the point that Fassetto uses a different version of
the paleo diet than they do.

[Maya Zuiderweg]

None Given was zeer hard aan het denken :

Oh. I thought this was about ungrounded nuts.
M.

[Bjørn Steensrud]

Are ungrounded nuts more likely to be struck by lightning than grounded
ones? (It's only raining here, no thunder.

[Maya Zuiderweg]

Bjørn Steensrud formuleerde op dinsdag :

"nuts and seeds, ungrounded" was something someone said (Susan
methinks). Ungrinded? Chewing them was part of this dizkuzzion, and
dont get hit by lightning when youre grounded, or ride in a car.
M.

[randyf]

Randy wrote:
" Didn't see where beans were *explicitly recommended". Could you
point
that out?"

Trawley replied:

>   I was referring to page 285 under the heading "vegetable foods".
>
> ! Except for Eskimos and other high latitude peoples, hunter-gatherers
> ! typically use many species of wild plants for food.  Roots, beans,
> ! tubers and fruits are the most common major dietary constituents...
>
>   Because of this recommendation of beans as paleo and the mention
>   of whole grains in their retrospective, the authors seem out of
>   step with other paleo diet experts.  Their citation of Fassetto's
>   work misses the point that Fassetto uses a different version of
>   the paleo diet than they do.

And you call that a recommendation to eat beans?. Nonsense.

Not only does Eaton make clear in both of his more recent summations
12 and 25 years after the paper you quoted ( and in his recent Video
which you refuse to view) he also make it abundantly clear what paleo
consists of in the summary of the source you just provided, the 1985
paper.

Here's his summary:

Eaton writes (in 1985, on page 287):
"but adults living before the development of agruculture and animal
husbandry derived all their nutrients form the first two food groups
(meat, fruits/vegetables); they apparently consumed cereal grains
rarely , if at all, and they had no dairy foods whatsoever."

Randy

[W. Baker]

Maya Zuiderweg <$no_spam#ma_dot_zuiderweg_@_me_dot_com#maps_on$> wrote:
: >>>
: >>> Only the meat. The wood shop vise cracks the nut.

: >>> Wood working for food preparation, a male's solution..........Trig
: >>
: >> Oh. I thought this was about ungrounded nuts.
: >> M.
: >
: > Are ungrounded nuts more likely to be struck by lightning than grounded
: > ones? (It's only raining here, no thunder.

: "nuts and seeds, ungrounded" was something someone said (Susan
: methinks). Ungrinded? Chewing them was part of this dizkuzzion, and
: dont get hit by lightning when youre grounded, or ride in a car.
: M.

Unground is the term, meaning not all chopped up into tiney flour-like pieces.
Grounded has two meanings I can think of right off the bad. in baseball he
grounded out means that the player hi the ball kind of along the ground and it was
caught by an opponeny and he was tagged oout. In other uses it means it has a good
foundation, i:e; his theory was well grounded in experimental research.

Wendy-end of english lesson:-)

[Bjørn Steensrud]

Brief supplement - electricity lesson: grounded also means having a good
electrical connection to "earth potential" - as in connection to a copper
stake pounded into the ground, or a buried metal pipe - water or sewage.
Goes back to Ben Franklin ...


There is often a "ground" lead in power outlets, varying between countries.

End of electric lesson :-)

[outsider]

On 4/17/2013 5:01 AM, Bj�rn Steensrud wrote:

> Brief supplement - electricity lesson: grounded also means having a good
> electrical connection to "earth potential" - as in connection to a copper
> stake pounded into the ground, or a buried metal pipe - water or sewage.

In the US sewer pipes are now typically plastic. When metal, they're
cast iron with oakum and lead seals indoors, presenting a lousy
electrical bonding. Outside under the ground rubber seals are used on
cast iron pipe, precluding any electrical connection at all.

Sewer lines are never used for electrical grounding here. And some years
back the National Electrical code (as well as local versions) abandoned
the use of water pipes for grounding and substituted two (2) driven
copper coated (details are codified) stakes at least 6 feet apart as
the minimum requirement. That's because the prevalence of non-metallic
water supply pipes has been spreading.

For many decades, well casings in rural regions were being used as the
electrical ground. But over time, those have become plastic too. Modern
plastics are very good for long periods.

> Goes back to Ben Franklin ...

There was no electrical distribution system in Franklin's day and
very little by way of running water, let alone sewers. Some few aspects
of "electricity" were barely understood, and grounding had not yet
become any sort of issue.

[W. Baker]

outsider <outs...@sometime.individual.net> wrote:

Isn't that what the lightening rod did? find a way for the electricity of the
lightning to find a way to ground, rather than split you house apart?

Wendy

[Bjørn Steensrud]

Exactly. Hence the metal rod bashed into the ground. As to what metal was
used, that is left as an exercise for the reader :-)

[Trawley Trash]

That doesn't say beans about beans. They are vegetables, and Eaton
lists them as such.

Eaton's premise in the 1985 paper seems is that we should imitate
the macronutrients in the paleolithic diet with modern foods. That
is different from saying we may be intolerant of foods that were not
part of our ancestral diet. Worse, he specifically mentions beans
among the vegetables in the diet of hunter-gatherers.

In the retrospective he glosses over this difference, and he
references experimental results that exclude legumes as supporting
his recommendations.

Food intolerances are a hot button issue with creationists and
military people. I was given chapter and verse.
Specifically Genesis 2:16:

! And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of
! the garden thou mayest freely eat:

! But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt
! not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou
! shalt surely die.

The insidious food intolerances that cause my type II diabetes
can't exist, because God tells us what we can eat.
So they claim. To enforce their weird religion creationists
have vast resources of military and intelligence communities.
They use fraudulent science experiments, drugs, and violence.
Then of course there is the public relations effort of which
you seem to be a part.

If Eaton and Konner had it right, they could never
have published in the NEJM. All too often
the result of peer review is suppression of dissent.

I don't care what he says in his slick video. The
media is the message, and that message is not for
me. Eaton and Konner never say a word about food
intolerances, and that is why you support them.

[Colt T]

Is shredded wheat healthier than say Wheaties or whole wheat bread
because the grain is less processed?

[Maya Zuiderweg]

W. Baker bracht volgend idï¿œe uit :

I learn a lot besides about diabetes ;-)
Isn't "grounded" also some kind of punishment?
M.

[W. Baker]

Maya Zuiderweg <$no_spam#ma_dot_zuiderweg_@_me_dot_com#maps_on$> wrote:
: W. Baker bracht volgend id?e uit :

Yes. When a kid does something wrong s/he is not alowwed to go out with friends or
to the movies or to parties, etc and must stay home(on home ground) for a set
period of time like a week or a month.

Wendy

[randyf]

trawley wrote:

 " I don't care what he says in his slick video.  The
  media is the message, and that message is not for
  me.  Eaton and Konner never say a word about food
  intolerances, and that is why you support them."

That's truly insane!
First of all I don't support Eaton/Konner or paleo to begin with.
In fact that's exactly why I started this thread.
And your notion that *I support them* because they don't mention food
intolerance, is a machination solely in your head.

The only point I've objected to is your constant harping the some
versions of paleo *recommend* beans, grains and dairy. That is untrue.
Just because I don't buy the whole paleo thing (even though it's one
diet of many that can be very healthy) doesn't mean you can mis
characterize it without objection.

Randy

[Don Roberto]

On 4/16/2013 6:18 PM, Susan wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>

> On 4/16/2013 9:14 PM, W. Baker wrote:
>
>> Unground is the term, meaning not all chopped up into tiney flour-like
>> pieces.
>> Grounded has two meanings I can think of right off the bad.
>

> Chewing and milling into flour are very different processes, in terms of
> timing (oxidation, rancidity) the amount of animal and bug parts mixed
> in, and especially the digestibility of the result.
>
> Any whole grain ground into flour is not a whole grain food.
>
> A kernel chewed up is not at all comparable.
>
> My only point.
>
> I see the lunatic fringe is alive and well. :-)
>

Yep, y'all will never be lonesome here

[Trawley Trash]

On Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:00:28 -0700 (PDT)
randyf <ra...@val.com> wrote:

> That's truly insane!
> First of all I don't support Eaton/Konner or paleo to begin with.
> In fact that's exactly why I started this thread.
> And your notion that *I support them* because they don't mention food

> intolerance, is a machination solely in yoy ur head.

You promote them as leaders or inventors of the paleo diet.
That is different from supporting paleo yourself. That makes it
even worse. You would give them celebrity status only to use them
as straw men.

> The only point I've objected to is your constant harping the some
> versions of paleo *recommend* beans, grains and dairy. That is untrue.
> Just because I don't buy the whole paleo thing (even though it's one
> diet of many that can be very healthy) doesn't mean you can mis
> characterize it without objection.

Paleo is *not* one diet of many that can be very healthy.

I am only responding to your repeated attempts to plant misinformation.
Eaton and Konner *do* recommend beans in their 1985 paper. This`
is a consequence of their premise that we should emulate the
levels of macronutrients that our paleo ancestors ingested.
Yes we need to do this, but the key to paleo is recognizing
that we have food intolerances.
Things like gluten, lectins, solanine and lactose are not tolerated
by many. Despite the good nutritional content of foods that contain.
them, they need to be avoided.

As to why legumes should be such a problem, I don't know. I have
a hard time believing our ancestors would not have eaten fresh
raw peas when they found them. But most paleo experts agree,
and my allergy tests and BG results also agree.