Grazing is for cattle
GysdeJongh
Grazing is for cattle
Many dietitians and nutritionists advise many people today to "graze," i.e.,
to eat small snacks every couple of hours. They argue that it blocks the
drop in insulin and blood sugar that can trigger greater appetite and claim
it can facilitate weight loss.
This is an absurd notion. Humans are not meant to graze. Humans are meant to
find a wild boar or other animal, kill it, gorge on the meat, organs, and
fat, then revert to berries, roots, leaves, and other foraged foods until
the next kill. A human living in the wild does not have a cupboard or
refrigerator full of ready-to-eat snacks to graze on.
The several hours after a meal is the most dangerous for creating coronary
atherosclerotic plaque, i.e., the post-prandial period. In other words, eat
dinner and, for the next 6-12 hours, your intestinal tract degrades the
food; food byproducts are absorbed into the blood or lymph system. The blood
is literally flooded with the byproducts of your meal.
Postprandial abnormalities are emerging to be a potent, and much
underappreciated, means of causing heart disease and atherosclerosis in
other vascular territories (especially carotid arteries and thoracic aorta).
Not eating--i.e., the fasting state--for extended periods is good for you.
Encouraging people to graze amplifies atherosclerotic risk, since it creates
an abnormal prolonged postprandial state.
Ozgirl
works fabulously for me. IMO 3 square meals a day would be worse for the
arteries than small mounts of anything regularly. But in my case I don't eat
full fat foods like cheese, fatty bacon, fatty meats etc.
As I said to Nicky recently, endothelial health is a pet topic of mine. You
might be interested in researching "Post-prandial dysmetabolism".
GysdeJongh
news:7lid9tF...@mid.individual.net...
> Grazing works fabulously for me.
nice to hear it works for you, Ozgirl :)
grazing is not for me, most of the time it totally spirals out of control
> endothelial health is a pet topic of mine. You might be interested in
> researching "Post-prandial dysmetabolism".
hey, we have at least one common hobby then. IMO the concept of
Post-prandial dysmetabolism makes more sense than just post prandial
bloodglucose alone
GysdeJongh
news:mgl7f55n8ljdtdogu...@4ax.com...
> These are excellent points, Gys, and I'd probably live like that if I
> was in the wild and didn't have a cupboard
thx for the compliment BlueBrooke :)
as for the cupboard...
I think of myself as a walking and biking cupboard with enough glycogen and
fat in store to deliver the necessary energy between meals.
Peppermint Patootie
"GysdeJongh" <jong...@Planet.nl> wrote:
> Not eating--i.e., the fasting state--for extended periods is good for you.
> Encouraging people to graze amplifies atherosclerotic risk, since it creates
> an abnormal prolonged postprandial state.
I have learned that advice written for people in general frequently is
the wrong advice for me, since I have diabetes.
PP, T2
GysdeJongh
news:v7def5truogm9apob...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 08:49:10 +0100, "GysdeJongh" <jong...@Planet.nl>
>>http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/grazing-is-for-cattle.html
> (your words)
no, not my words
I quoted the The Heart Scan Blog by Dr. William Davis
here is it again :
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/grazing-is-for-cattle.html
Gys
BDR529
I like this topic Gys, believe however that you should take a cookie
during a BG dip. Still have a few packs of evergreens and sultana's.
Q
Nicky
>This is an absurd notion. Humans are not meant to graze. Humans are meant to
>find a wild boar or other animal, kill it, gorge on the meat, organs, and
>fat, then revert to berries, roots, leaves, and other foraged foods until
>the next kill. A human living in the wild does not have a cupboard or
>refrigerator full of ready-to-eat snacks to graze on.
That's complete rubbish - these people have obviously never gone for a
walk in the wild! Of course you graze as you go. You also pop tasty
but long-lasting foods into your pack for later attention; and when
you get a kill, you smoke or air-dry as much meat as possible - after
eating all the fast-spoiling bits, of course.
>Not eating--i.e., the fasting state--for extended periods is good for you.
>Encouraging people to graze amplifies atherosclerotic risk, since it creates
>an abnormal prolonged postprandial state.
This has to be a balance; atheroscleroticism vs a liver dump. My
choice is not to fast; my liver response is too predictable and too
powerful.
Nicky.
T2 dx 05/04 + underactive thyroid
D&E, 150ug thyroxine
Last A1c 5.2% BMI 26
GysdeJongh
> On Mon, 9 Nov 2009 00:53:17 +0100, "GysdeJongh" <jong...@Planet.nl>
> I misunderstood. Sorry!
no problem Chris, just not my words ... :)
most of the time I like the man's blog and tend to agree with him. In the
mean time I also avoid grazing on berries, roots, leaves, and other foraged
food. Maybe my ancestors did that, it does not work for me. I loose control
over what I eat and is bad for my disinhibition (= the ability to edit ones
behaviour) I just found a recent article which describes this :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19847584?dopt=Citation
Ann Behav Med. 2009 Oct 22.
What Distinguishes Weight-Loss Maintainers from the Treatment-Seeking Obese?
Analysis of Environmental, Behavioral, and Psychosocial Variables in Diverse
Populations.
BACKGROUND: Understanding the factors that influence successful weight
control is critical for developing interventions. PURPOSE: The purpose of
the study was to provide a comprehensive understanding of the role of
psychosocial, environmental, and behavioral variables in distinguishing
weight-loss maintainers (WLM) from treatment-seeking obese (TSO). METHODS:
WLM (n = 167) had lost >/=10% of their maximum body weight, had kept the
weight off for >/=5 years, and were now of normal weight. TSO-1 and TSO-2
had a history of dieting and body mass index >/=25. TSO-1 was predominantly
Caucasian; TSO-2 was predominantly African-American. Bayesian model
averaging was used to identify the variables that distinguished WLM from
TSO-1 and TSO-2. RESULTS: The variables that most consistently discriminated
WLM from TSO were more physical activity (ORs = 3.95 and 2.85), more dietary
restraint (ORs = 1.63 and 1.41), and less dietary disinhibition (ORs = 0.69
and 0.83). Environmental variables, including the availability of physical
activity equipment, TVs, and high-fat foods in the home, also distinguished
WLM from TSO. CONCLUSIONS: Obesity treatment should focus on increasing
conscious control over eating, engaging in physical activity, and reducing
disinhibition. Changes in the home environment may help facilitate these
behavioral changes.
PMID: 19847584
GysdeJongh
news:c4552$4af7d77a$915eb959$26...@news1.tudelft.nl...
> I like this topic Gys, believe however that you should take a cookie
> during a BG dip.
if it works for you than enjoy it :)
I myself I never had a bg dip ( < 3 mmol/l) . Not even after a ride on my
racing bike after fasting for days .... The mitochondrions in my muscles
were slowly re-trained to do substrate switching, so they burn fat again if
there is no glucose/glycogen. I lost the substrate switching capability
after a prolonged period in my life of over-feeding. I stored the fat
instead of burning it, causing insuline resistance.
ymmv
just my 2 cents of course
GysdeJongh
news:p86gf5tknkmhg4rsb...@4ax.com...
> Of course you graze as you go. You also pop tasty
> but long-lasting foods into your pack for later attention
for me it is _Possible_ (not necessary) to function on a high activity
level without grazing and even without eating right before the activity...
My point is that my body _Can_ store the necessary calories and nutrients
for long periods, it will however only _Keep_ that ability if I train it
now and than. So I deliberately train my body to run on fat and thus lower
my insulin resistance.
Just my 2 cents
> This has to be a balance; atheroscleroticism vs a liver dump.
sure, there has to be a balance, which is different for all of us :)
Kurt
> "Nicky" <ukc802466...@btconnect.com> wrote in message
Although Dawn Phenomenon and Somogyi Effect do exist, it's mostly
amateur arm-chair doctors who flog the term "liver dump" and use it as
an excuse to explain anytime their numbers creep up. IMO, it is
certainly not the continual on-and-off faucet that some make it out to
be.
Kurt
BDR-529
The real grazing is of course, the SEA-FOOD diet. I've been on that diet
for over 40 years, and it did not work because every time when you see
food, well, there you go.
Fundamental to grazing is that some people like myself have the nasty
habit of snatching every calorie on their path unless you specifically
train them to not even think about it.
Two examples:
Some pieces of cake were left over this weekend, I found them in the
fridge and on the kitchen table, and the temptation is there, you want
to eat it, but, you know, that glucosemeter. So the house rule is that
there is no more exposed food when I walk past the kitchen table.
Fortunately almost everyone cooperates most of the time.
After supper I also have a weak spot, the taste of food is there and the
body says, gimme more buddy, some on, lets have it. Here the solution is
to drink black coffee, it just makes you forget about starting to eat at
those difficult moments.
Q, aka formally a grazing cow at BMI > 32.
--
Type-2 diabetes since July 2009, 1000 mg/day metformin, BMI 26.3
GysdeJongh
news:4af8920a$0$22938$e4fe...@news.xs4all.nl...
> GysdeJongh wrote:
>> "BDR529" <jake> wrote in message
>> news:c4552$4af7d77a$915eb959$26...@news1.tudelft.nl...
> After supper I also have a weak spot
evolution took care of that design feature. It equiped us with hard-wired
software to extend and continue an ongoing meal. One of the signals in this
design is the hormone Grehlin.
It really makes sense to me
If there is nothing to eat than there is no Grehlin signal, so you can
concentrate on catching the dinosaur....
But if there IS something to eat than Grehlin will make sure that you will
even kill your own cat to collect as much calories as possible for later
use....
The problem arises if later never comes because in our society there is
ALWAYS something to eat.
You can win if you are aware of how it works. Just ride out the Grehlin
signal, it will only last for minutes. Do something highly interesting right
after dinner, simulating the next dinosaur hunt ... :)
This is the maximal survival strategy :
1) If there is something to eat make sure that you get as much as possible
2) If there is nothing to eat than don't generate hunger because this wil
interfere with the next hunt.
3) If you have eaten all there is at the moment than fall asleep because any
other activity just increases the risk that you will not survive...
Eating and planning an activity right after it, physical OR mental, will
break the chain.
just my two cents of course
ra...@val.com
Hi Gys,
Thanks for bringing up this little discussed but very pertinent topic.
Here's a link to a great paper on reducing negative post prandial
effects when we do eat.
http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/full/51/3/249
Regards
Randy
GysdeJongh
news:1ce14aaf-3dcb-41c4...@a32g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 6, 1:49 am, "GysdeJongh" <jongh...@Planet.nl> wrote:
> Thanks for bringing up this little discussed but very pertinent
> topic.Here's a link to a great paper on reducing negative
> post prandial effects when we do eat.
http://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/content/full/51/3/249
thx Randy I saw the article :)
See the comments of Ozgirl in this thread
James O'Keefe wrote several articles together with Cordain and Brand-Miller.
Their key concept is postprandial dysmetabolism, which seems a lot more
logical than post prandial bloodglucose alone : if you change your diet to
fat than post prandial serum fat spikes will result which are a bad thing
too.
Here is the abstract :
The highly processed, calorie-dense, nutrient-depleted diet favored in the
current American culture frequently leads to exaggerated supraphysiological
post-prandial spikes in blood glucose and lipids. This state, called
postprandial dysmetabolism, induces immediate oxidant stress, which
increases in direct proportion to the increases in glucose and triglycerides
after a meal. The transient increase in free radicals acutely triggers
atherogenic changes including inflammation, endothelial dysfunction,
hypercoagulability, and sympathetic hyperactivity. Post-prandial
dysmetabolism is an independent predictor of future cardiovascular events
even in nondiabetic individuals. Improvements in diet exert profound and
immediate favorable changes in the post-prandial dysmetabolism.
Specifically, a diet high in minimally processed, high-fiber, plant-based
foods such as vegetables and fruits, whole grains, legumes, and nuts will
markedly blunt the post-meal increase in glucose, triglycerides, and
inflammation. Additionally, lean protein, vinegar, fish oil, tea, cinnamon,
calorie restriction, weight loss, exercise, and low-dose to moderate-dose
alcohol each positively impact post-prandial dysmetabolism. Experimental and
epidemiological studies indicate that eating patterns, such as the
traditional Mediterranean or Okinawan diets, that incorporate these types of
foods and beverages reduce inflammation and cardiovascular risk. This
anti-inflammatory diet should be considered for the primary and secondary
prevention of coronary artery disease and diabetes. (J Am Coll Cardiol
2008;51:249-55) � 2008 by the American College of Cardiology Foundation
Ozgirl
There is a lot of talk in this group about fat not being bad for you. When
you research what fat does post-meal, re inflammation and endothelial
damage, you begin to see the "fat" issue in a whole different light. I have
always erred on the side of caution when it comes to fat. While its obvious
one needs to make sure there are no bg spikes it is also obvious one should
make sure that fat is in an acceptable range (as well as carbs). Gys, this
makes my grazing argument stronger :) The less food we take in at any one
sitting, the less likely we are to be causing bg spikes and endothelial
inflammation. The added side effect of grazing is maintaining euglycemia.
As I said I like to take anti-oxidants with a meal but I also try hard to
avoid taking in inflammatory foods in the first place. What good is it to
take action to prevent complications from bg spikes while ignoring artery
health.
There is also talk in another thread about fat preventing formation of
gallstones in very low calorie diets/rapid weight loss. One might prevent
stones but one still has to pay the piper, in this case it would be swapping
gallstones for endothelial damage. An ideal weight loss diet would be around
1200 cals and no less than 1000 AND making sure fat levels aren't too high.
We should aim for more balance.
GysdeJongh
> There is a lot of talk in this group about fat not being bad for you.
the question is what _Your genes do in _Your environment with the fat _You
eat ... :)
If you eat lots of fat and don't move you will get fat stores in your musles
which they are not trained to burn. The Insulin Receptor Substrate will get
phosphorilated at the wrong site, resulting in "insuline resistance" and
trouble.
if you are a marathon runner you will win the race, because fat is the only
way to store such an amount of energy
if you are an inuit eating fat is the only way to survive because fat is the
only way to have a large energy store.
> one needs to make sure there are no bg spikes it is also obvious one
> should make sure that fat is in an acceptable range (as well as carbs).
> Gys, this makes my grazing argument stronger :) The less food we take in
> at any one sitting, the less likely we are to be causing bg spikes and
> endothelial inflammation. The added side effect of grazing is maintaining
> euglycemia.
I don't agree, sorry
if you ingest low energy density food, than this will end up far further in
your intestine. It will activate L-cells which feed back GLP-1 to your liver
shutting down the glucose production. It will activate the ppar receptors
for fat, the taste receptors (yes , those are also in your intestines) for
sugar signalling you hypothalamus to stop the meal etc. I can eat enough
calories and nutrients in about 2 hours for a few days. No bg spikes. The
food (and fiber) very slowly processed in my intestines, by "me" but also by
my colon bacteria. If you "graze" you may prevent spikes but your metabolism
is not trained to work in cycles of storing and burning. The system only
works half. Which is the original hypothesis of dokter Davis from the Heart
Scan Blog. Where this thread started.
> What good is it to take action to prevent complications from bg spikes
> while ignoring artery health.
yep survival is an optimisation problem and each of us has his own
priorities ... :)
> in this case it would be swapping gallstones for endothelial damage.
yep survival is an optimisation problem and each of us has his own
priorities ... :)
> We should aim for more balance.
is what evolution does : find the correct balance
every thing in moderation
seen Alan lately ?
Ozgirl
No, and he only lives down the road :)
GysdeJongh
> No, and he only lives down the road :)
say hello from me if you see him, hope he enjoys the serene rest of his
vacation ... :)
The Heart Scan Blog by Dr. William Davis :
http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/
Postprandial pile-up with fructose
Heart disease is likely caused in the after-eating, postprandial period.
That's why the practice of grazing, eating many small meals throughout the
day, can potentially increase heart disease risk. Eating often can lead to
the phenomenon I call triglyceride and chylomicron "stacking," or the piling
up of postprandial breakdown products in the blood stream. Fructose caused a
4-fold greater increase in abdominal fat and 45% increase in small LDL
particles. It means that low-fat salad dressings, sodas, ketchup, spaghetti
sauce, and all the other foods made with high-fructose corn syrup not only
make you fat, but also magnifies the severity of postprandial lipoprotein
stacking, a phenomenon that leads to more atherosclerotic plaque.
Ozgirl
Its hard to find any product in Australia with HFCS. My little and oftens
might be a couple of olives and a dried apricot halve. If I spread my
calories over 3 meals only I would have an enormous psot prandial product
breakdown.
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
... as long as there is no hyperketonemia of starvation resulting in a
loss of hunger.
Not being hungry is terrible and indicates physical harm.
Be hungrier, which truly is healthier for mind, body, and soul:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/f882137d4e2858d8?
Love in the truth,
Andrew <><
--
Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Heart Doctor
and Author of "Trust the Truth:"
http://www.amazon.com/-/e/B002G22ZWG
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/9642aafa0aad16eb?
Only the truth can cure the "hunger is starvation" delusion:
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.med.cardiology/msg/74281ab7d7ce78de?