Lipoic Acid
ja...@onepost.net
similar to alpha lipoic acid, but it is more bio-available requiring
you to take less daily. All I can say so far is wow. Taking the same
insulin dosage prior to taking the supplement, my blood sugar numbers
are a lot lower than before. I will have to take less insulin now
(which is a good thing). I'm a T1.
This is the third day of taking the supplements, and they have made a
very noticeable improvement in my blood sugar. I just thought I'd
share, because this is something that your doctor will more than
likely never tell you.
I'm taking a total of 100mg of (R)-Lipoic Acid per day (50mg two times
a day with breakfast and dinner). I wish I had done this a lot sooner!
"Blattus Slafaly £ ¥ 0/00 :)"
Maybe they can inject you with a stem cell matrix and grow yourself a
new pancreas.
--
Blattus Slafaly ? 3 :) 7/8
Uncle Enrico
Are you taking Insulow?
Quentin Grady
G'day G'day,
I think the irony may be lost on many of the readers here.
Lipoic acid improves nerve conduction so helps some diabetics with
peripheral neuropathy either by itself or in conjunction with gamma
linoleic acid, GLA found in evening primrose oil.
In Germany it is prescribed for high blood sugar levels.
The question is "What is the mechanism?"
Best wishes,
--
Quentin Grady ^ ^ /
New Zealand, >#,#< [
/ \ /\
"... and the blind dog was leading."
ja...@onepost.net
<boobooil...@roadrunner.com> wrote:
>Maybe they can inject you with a stem cell matrix and grow yourself a
>new pancreas.
I recall reading something about this. I'll wait until all the kinks
are worked out first though :)
ja...@onepost.net
<que...@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>G'day G'day,
>
> I think the irony may be lost on many of the readers here.
>
>Lipoic acid improves nerve conduction so helps some diabetics with
>peripheral neuropathy either by itself or in conjunction with gamma
>linoleic acid, GLA found in evening primrose oil.
>
>In Germany it is prescribed for high blood sugar levels.
>The question is "What is the mechanism?"
>
>Best wishes,
I really did not know much about this supplement or its uses. I
started taking a few more supplements recently, and I added this one
to my regimen. To my surprise, it has affected my blood sugar
readings. Nothing else has changed except the addition of
supplements.
I've never used primrose oil, nor have I had a need to. I still have
feeling and sensation in my toes. I didn't even know that lipoic acid
was used to treat neuropathy.
ja...@onepost.net
wrote:
>Are you taking Insulow?
I don't get it.
Uncle Enrico
Dr. Bernstein has a couple of pages on alpha lipoic acid and now
r-lipoic acid or r-alpha lipoic acid in his book "Diabetes Solution" 2nd
and 3rd editions.
Bernstein describes ALA as an "insulin mimetic" which transports glucose
into muscle tissue, much like insulin, but it doesn't entail fat
storage. Does this sound too good to be true? It's working for me as
described.
He says that ALA plus evening primrose oil works well to reduce or
eliminate painful neuropathy, as many of us know, and advises patients
injecting insulin to titrate their insulin dosages downward depending on
how much ALA they take.
In his 2nd edition, for neuropathy, he was recommending Jarrow Sustain
time release ALA in dosages of 600 mg every 8 hours along with 1000 mg
of EPO and advised insulin users to expect to reduce their insulin by 30%.
In his 3rd edition, for neuropathy, he is recommending Insulow, an r-ALA
and has reduced the dosage recommendation to 200 mg. every 8 hours along
with 1000 mg of EPO.
Insulow's package describes its ALA form as r-ALA. I've seen r-lipoic
acid in nutrition stores. I'm assuming it's the same stuff. Insulow is
available through Amazon.com.
Personally, I found that Insulow was more potent at mimicking insulin
than Jarrow Sustain, but I didn't think it was as effective in pain
reduction.
Uncle Enrico
One other interesting footnote on ALA and it's blood sugar lowering
properties: Bernstein says that he's been prescribing ALA and now r-ALA
or r-LA for quite some time and has only seen hypos for those injecting
insulin, but no hypos for those on oral meds. Hmmmm.... Explain that one.
He also said that many cardiologists he knows long ago switched from
Vitamin E to ALA, as he has done. He's a Type I. I'd be curious to know
how much Insulow he's taking each day.
I've reduced my insulin by around 40% with a modification in diet thrown
in the mix. Blood sugars are much more stable.
ja...@onepost.net
wrote:
>One other interesting footnote on ALA and it's blood sugar lowering
>properties: Bernstein says that he's been prescribing ALA and now r-ALA
>or r-LA for quite some time and has only seen hypos for those injecting
>insulin, but no hypos for those on oral meds. Hmmmm.... Explain that one.
>
>He also said that many cardiologists he knows long ago switched from
>Vitamin E to ALA, as he has done. He's a Type I. I'd be curious to know
>how much Insulow he's taking each day.
>
>I've reduced my insulin by around 40% with a modification in diet thrown
>in the mix. Blood sugars are much more stable.
Thanks for the explanation. No -- I am not taking this particular
product. I would guess, as you stated, Insulow is the same as r-LA
(probably a trademarked name or some such).
I actually ordered r-LA to take for an additional antioxidant. I was
pleasantly surprised to learn it lowered my blood sugar. While we're
sharing info, I am also taking olive leaf extract that I ordered from
the same place. I think this may be a good supplement for diabetics
too, especially if you are not taking an ACE inhibitor (I am not
taking one, because my blood pressure is good). Olive leaf extract
lowers the blood pressure, which helps protect the kidneys, in
additional to boosting the immune system. It has no side effects, is
all natural and safe.
morris
as help reverse neuropathy, and have corresponded with many people who
have found it effective at the latter--but never anyone who had it
lower their blood sugar. About a year ago, the Rexall brand of ALA had
a warning on the bottle saying not to take it if you had diabetes, and
we always assumed that was a cover-your-ass (or their ass) warning
because it might lower blood sugar.
But I have never seen evidence that it does lower blood sugar.
Of course the ALA I took which helped with my neuropathy was garden
variety Trader Joe's non-time release ALA, which worked well without
EPO. I have seen a pretty good argument for why time release should
not be as effective as the cheaper stuff
http://www.doctormurray.com/ask/alphalipoic.asp
although that runs contrary to the experience of some people here.
Is it possible that one form of ALA is more effective with neuropathy,
and that another form has an effect on blood sugar?
Morris
Uncle Enrico
How much ALA were you taking per day? I began with 600 mg. 3 times a
day. That required at least a 30% reduction in insulin.
Uncle Enrico
> I actually ordered r-LA to take for an additional antioxidant. I was
> pleasantly surprised to learn it lowered my blood sugar. While we're
> sharing info, I am also taking olive leaf extract that I ordered from
> the same place. I think this may be a good supplement for diabetics
> too, especially if you are not taking an ACE inhibitor (I am not
> taking one, because my blood pressure is good). Olive leaf extract
> lowers the blood pressure, which helps protect the kidneys, in
> additional to boosting the immune system. It has no side effects, is
> all natural and safe.
>
Thanks for the info on olive leaf extract.
ja...@onepost.net
The R-Lipoic Acid I am taking is not time released. I ordered from
the same company I order all my supplements from, and they are a high
quality producer. The supplements I take are capsules, not pills,
that do not contain any artificial or unnecessary ingredients (like
coloring). Also, you would have to take a significantly higher amount
of ALA to receive the same benefits of the R-LA supplement.
I guess it is possible that a higher quality supplement provides more
potency than one of a lower quality.
Jefferson
> Lipoic acid improves nerve conduction so helps some diabetics with
> peripheral neuropathy either by itself or in conjunction with gamma
> linoleic acid, GLA found in evening primrose oil.
>
> In Germany it is prescribed for high blood sugar levels.
> The question is "What is the mechanism?"
>
I can give you some leads but you know more about chemistry than I do.
Uncle Enrico gave Bernsteins explanation of what it does. It seems that
you are asking how does alpha lipoic acid do it?
The TCA Cycle
The complex also requires 5 different coenzymes: CoA, NAD+, FAD+, lipoic
acid and thiamine pyrophosphate (TPP). Three of the coenzymes of the
complex are tightly bound to enzymes of the complex (TPP, lipoic acid
and FAD+) and two are employed as carriers of the products of PDH
complex activity (CoA and NAD+). -
http://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/tca-cycle.html
See dihydrolipoyl dehydrogenase and transacetylase
a-Betoglutaric Dehydrogenase
X. ON THE MECHANISM OF DIHYDROLIPOYL DEHYDROGENASE REACTION -
http://www.jbc.org/cgi/reprint/236/8/2317
Search for dihydrolipoyl+mechanism: 1,070 finds - http://tinyurl.com/ys8pav
Down-regulation of Pyruvate Dehydrogenase Phosphatase in Obese Subjects
is a Defect that Signals Insulin Resistance -
http://www.obesityresearch.org/cgi/content/full/13/4/678
A Model-Based Method for Assessing Insulin Sensitivity From the Oral
Glucose Tolerance Test -
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/24/3/539
Search for dihydrolipoyl: 1,740 finds -
http://tinyurl.com/299yvj
Alpha-lipoic acid in liver metabolism and disease.
"R-alpha-Lipoic acid is found naturally occurring as a prosthetic group
in alpha-keto acid dehydrogenase complexes of the mitochondria, and as
such plays a fundamental role in metabolism. ... it has the ability to
alter the redox status of cells and interact with thiols and other
antioxidants. Therefore, it appears that this compound has important
therapeutic potential in conditions where oxidative stress is involved.
... A common response in these trials was an increase in glucose uptake,
but increased plasma levels of pyruvate and lactate were also observed,
suggesting that an inhibitory effect on the pyruvate dehydrogenase
complex was occurring." PMID: 9607614
lipoprotein+"lipoic acid":02,600 finds - http://tinyurl.com/3x3gzv
pyruvate dehydrogenase kinase 4 (PDK4) is important in fatty acid
oxidation. "fatty acid oxidation"+PDK4: 392 finds -
http://tinyurl.com/34o3t8
Frank
morris
about a year, or about 6 months after the neuropathy stopped improving-
it improved about 95%. Later on I tried another 3 months, and then
later still read here about EPO and tried the cocktail for 3 months,
hoping to get that last 5%, but it had no effect.
At no point when I started or stopped did my blood glucose levels show
any significant change.
Morris
morris
> Quentin Grady wrote:
> > Lipoic acid improves nerve conduction so helps some diabetics with
> > peripheral neuropathy either by itself or in conjunction with gamma
> > linoleic acid, GLA found in evening primrose oil.
>
> > In Germany it is prescribed for high blood sugar levels.
> > The question is "What is the mechanism?"
What I have read many times is that there are lots of theories about
how ALA works, but none of them are proven. So while I am glad it
helped with my neuropathy, and cite what sounds reasonable to me, I
certainly wouldn't claim to know for sure.
That explanation, BTW, is that ALA, as the only anti-oxidant that is
both fat and water soluble, can migrate to and effectively remove
free radicals in parts of the body, such as the nerve sheathes where
the nerve damage causing neuropathy occurs. Other anti-oxidants,
being only water or fat soluble, cannot get to those places. Sounds
very plausible to me, the weak point being the assumption that free
radicals are involved in neuropathy, an assumption that hasn't, to my
knowledge, been proven.
Which does not make me any less pleased with the results...
Morris
Trinkwasser
>I actually ordered r-LA to take for an additional antioxidant. I was
>pleasantly surprised to learn it lowered my blood sugar. While we're
>sharing info, I am also taking olive leaf extract that I ordered from
>the same place. I think this may be a good supplement for diabetics
>too, especially if you are not taking an ACE inhibitor (I am not
>taking one, because my blood pressure is good). Olive leaf extract
>lowers the blood pressure, which helps protect the kidneys, in
>additional to boosting the immune system. It has no side effects, is
>all natural and safe.
Yes I started taking it (ordinary bog standard ALA, first 200 mg then
2x150 mg) and was also surprised to find it not only improved my BG
but also the muscle glucose uptake and cut out my morning liver dumps.
The latter is a two-edged sword though, previously if I over-exerted
in the morning unless I deliberately put my BG up I'd do a liver dump,
now I can quite happily drop my BG to 60 before I start to notice, so
I *still* deliberately put my BG up and I'm currently rechecking the
parameters to see what I can and can't get away with.
There have been other threads about this over the years, like most
things it works for some but not others. I'd assumed it would work
better for Type 2s as it reduces insulin resistance, hadn't thought of
it for Type 1s.
Hadn't heard of the olive leaf extract, personally I'm happy with my
ARB for BP control. ACE and ARBs have kidney protective effects and
others over and above the BP lowering.