My brush with Paxil & the book that scared me away
kjhNO...@notsoftspam.net
It's been three weeks since I started taking Paxil at the urging of my
counselor. I have mild social anxiety and occasional depression, and had
resisted taking any anti-depressants throughout my counseling. Everyone
else in my counseling group was on some form of medication and I finally
broke down and agreed to try it, just to see. Maybe I'd been operating
under a blanket of depression for so long that I didn't even notice it any
more, and Paxil would let me see without it.
I started on 10mg and experienced the usual side effects -- nausea,
lethargy, trouble focusing, low energy... With the occasional brief
moment of "sunshine". Overall, the impact the drug was having on my
motivation was cancelling out any benefits. The problems in my life
weren't bothering me any more, but I wasn't doing much to resolve them. I
wasn't able to concentrate enough to go to chi gong classes or study for
my MCSE exam, and my job hunt ground to a halt.
Determined to tough it out, I upped my dosage to 20mg this past weekend,
despite being increasingly worried about letting my body get accustomed to
a substance with adverse withdrawal symptoms. The tiredness got worse and
I didn't see much benefit. My state of mind would have been an
improvement over a serious depression, but that hadn't been an issue for
half a year or more.
Then I borrowed a book called _The Prozac Backlash_ (by Joseph Glenmullen)
from a friend. It's frightening and it makes me wish I'd never started on
Paxil. Now, I'm not just trolling here, and I'm not going to hang around
and harangue people (although I'm going to keep reading the group until
I'm sure I'm past the withdrawal stage). But I wanted to call people's
attention to the book.
Scary Thing #1: The way the current usage of SSRIs matches earlier
patterns of new "wonder drug" usage -- fanfare, public acceptance,
overprescription before long-term effects can be determined, widespread
use for even minor ailments, suppression of negative data by drug
manufacturers, and finally recognition (too late for many) of serious
consequences.
Scary Thing #2: The effects of SSRIs on dopamine levels and the nervous
system. Tics, tremors, muscle spasms, and parkinsonism. (Why, after only
two weeks of a low dosage of Paxil, was my jaw constantly sore?) The
other parallels between Parkinson's disease and SSRI symptoms -- memory
loss, cognitive impairment, and lethargy -- are frightening. What are
people doing to themselves in order to overcome (in many cases) minor
ailments?
What's compelling about the book is the huge number of studies it cites,
articles in the Journal of Neuroscience, Journal of Clinical Psychiatry,
JAMA, and many others. There appears to be a groundswell of evidence from
many different independent experts that these drugs can permanently damage
your nervous system. I suppose one could trust the drug companies (who
have immense financial stakes in SSRIs) or HMOs (who benefit from
short-term fixes over more expensive psychological treatment) or the FDA
(who have 1500 employees working on the new drug approval process but only
6 monitoring post-approval safety concerns), but history shows that the
makers of new wonder drugs (like Thorazine) simply cannot be trusted to
put patient safety over financial concerns.
Again, I'm not here to get into any arguments and I'm not going to be a
nuisance. The book makes its case much more comprehensively than I could.
I'm not saying everyone needs to stop taking SSRIs or anything, but it's
always best to have as much information as possible, and anyone uncertain
about SSRIs would do well to take a look at this book.
That's all I have to say. I wish you all well.
salarmy4me
caused such long term side-effects they would have been
taken off the market.
One cannot believe everything one reads.
Some people with funny letters after their names just have
an aversion to SSRIs; (they have used them and failed, or
they hear of possible yet not probable reactions to them)
they write negative reports on them. The sad part is they
don't realize how much damage they created in the
population. They are encouraging people to reject
anti-depressants, when people need them badly.
In short, being convinced not to take a safe antidepressant
only leads to endless torture and anguish.
--J.T. Salvation Army Southern California Division
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
eric
> they write negative reports on them. The sad part is they
the concern about lowered dopamine levels is not un possible its highly
probable, it is probably the main reason for drowsiness.
Most ssri's are fairly dirty in my humble opinion.
Joymolloy
but I found staying at 10 mg for at least a week and going to 15 mg for a week
and then 20 was okay. I tapered off slowly because once I came off too quickly
and got bad migraines. the antidepressants are a godsend for many people, they
don't work for everyone and finding the right med is not always easy. I have a
friend on Prozac 10 years and another on Paxil three years. I'm not saying
it's right for everyone, but there are more than one side to every story. I
hope that you are okay, and feel better. If your anxiety is pretty mild you may
not need an antidepressant anyway. They ar not for MILD social anxiety [that's
a normal situation for the majority of people, they just don't admit it]! Take
care
LostBoyinNC
read Glenmullen's book "Prozac Backlash?" LOL HAHAHAHAHAHA You
are a sucker and a gullable idiot. My friend, Glenmullen is a
quack. Glenmullen is down on SSRIs because he is an old time
psychiatrist and he tilts more towards talk psychotherapy vs
medication. A lot of the older Pdocs are like that. I have read
about Glenmullen and he is very, very pro talk therapy and very
anti-med. The problem with this is that it is just not
realistic for treating any halfway remotely serious mental
illness. Talk psychotherapy is good, especially in cases of
milder depression where it has not yet become clinical
depression yet. But talk therapy is a very weak treatment for
any psychiatric condition that is halfway severe.
I wouldnt worry about the effect on the dopamine system Eric. I
think your anxiety is getting the worst of you. You said you
have social anxiety disorder right? Well, a hallmark of social
anxiety disorder is a lack of confidence and an inability to
think for yourself and lack of a "backbone." People with social
anxiety disorder oftentimes do not think for themselves and are
not very assertive.
I think you should put your money where your mouth is and start
asserting yourself. If you are swayed that much just by reading
one slanted book by a biased, anti-med psychiatrist, you truly
are a weak minded person. I would not be afraid if I were you
and go back on that Paxi...or pretty much any SSRI for that
matter. I bet if you could stay on it for six weeks you would be
a lot happier and see results. I bet you would get more out of
therapy also.
Glenmullen is an idiot Eric. I would not pay attention to
anything he says. Another "quack" you should totally ignore is
the infamous psychiatrist Dr. Peter Breggin. He has written a
lot of very popular books that are extremely biased and very
anti-psychiatric medication. He is another idiot, like
Glenmullen. Neither Glenmullen nor Breggin tell both sides of
the story in their books and neither present accurate accounts
of mental illness. Both trivialize mental illness to a degree,
which is inflammatory to us sick people.
Take Prozac Backlash, throw it in the trashcan and forget
everything you read in it. It is a trash book from an idiot
author.
Eric
My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
eric
If there is another eric in this group Im not him, I just got here today.
Definetly my type of place though, as I am a drug orriented guy.
I dont have social anxiety disorder, not that I know of.
LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:08f5dfef...@usw-ex0105-034.remarq.com...
codeee
"Well - no matter what anyone else says, I thank you for your post.
I have bigger problems now than before I started taking an SSRI.
I'll look for the book, the idea that this damage is permanent is
verrrry scary.
Thanks,
codeee
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
salarmy4me
for your own health and well-being, have you looked into a
tricyclic antidepressant?
While SSRIs have been around for 20 years, tricyclics have
been around for 40 years. We definitely know what effects
tricyclics have-- over a whole generation. You can't get
better than that.
They're cheap, they can be taken once-a-day, and proven as
effective as any other anti-depressants.
dj...@my-deja.com
levels in certain parts of the brain, they dramatically increase
dopamine in other areas. All SSRI's block the reuptake of dopamine to
some extent, especially Prozac and Zoloft. The result is MORE dopamine
in the synaptic cleft.
Much of the lethargy related to SSRI's is due to their reaction with
histamine and other neuro-hormones. There is no correlation between
SSRI's and Parkinson's. Many drugs have similar side effect profiles.
SSRI's may permanently ALTER neuron function. Not damage. Remember,
current research indicates that mood disorders stem from (at least
partially) an already dysfunctional neurotransmitter system(s).
James MacLachlan
damage (I still haven't read or seen ANY that claim "permanent" damage),
there are plenty of other positive ones that not only treating your
depression has a zillion positive benefits, but some have been said to be
"anti-oxidants", protecting the brain from damage to it's cells by
everything from very toxic chemicals, to the horrible release of negative
hormones. (Cortisol is what actually kills salmon after they mate. SSRI's
and other a.d's have been shown to regulate the receiving receptor in the
brain of this and other damaging chemicals, like norepinephrine.)
My overall take....in the beginning...a.d's and ssri's SUCKED SOOOOO bad.
But, after toying around with different ones, listening to what my body and
mind is saying, it took me a number of years to get to a fairly good combo
of a.d's that. I compare my journal writings before medication, and many
years after.
Yes, I AM a fairly different person than before meds, but that, I think, may
not just be a "med" effect, but my reflection and growth as well as the
protection of harm from horrible stress. I completed a Master's level degree
while being years on meds. Without the meds, I wouldn't have even have
thought of it, as I was in such psychic pain and despair.
On a final note...this is a bit more of a "ethical/philosophical" belief.
There are many people, some whom I know, who have been on a.d's for 30 or
so years. Since their initial treatment, most went on to great lives...great
relationships...careers...etc. Also, depression does not just strike us as
individuals. It can make our families "Hell", and create such horrible pain.
My life is far from perfect (as are most others...and no..meds do NOT make
you feel "perfect") But I am gaining a certain amount of peace and
contendedness that I had NEVER before without medication.
Now, as far as SSRI's doing all of these nasty "things" that are listed, you
not only have to look at the numbers, but what about the millions of other
elements and chemicals in our society that can be very lethal and damaging!
Your daily multimineral pill contains chemicals that have been linked to
everything from Schizophrenia (copper), Parkinson's (Maganese), plus blood
poisoning, liver and kidney damage; eye damage; cancer.
The odds of an SSRI POSSIBLY (they still have a difficult time showing a
DIRECT co-relation) causing something bad are so minimal compared to the
benefits. The feeling I got even just from a few things after my depression
and anxiety started to lift (such as getting a good job, going back to
school, learning to move on after some horrible tragedies in my life.), are
all honestly priceless. In fact, I would go as far to say that without
proper treatment with the right med for you, you are putting your health
(stress, thinking patterns, etc.) and life (suicide potential) at risk more
then EVER.
Just to relate....I HATED Paxil also. It was probably the crappiest a.d. I
was ever on. But that was just me...and it works well for some others
though. I will agree many of these meds have been "over-hyped", but if you
truly listen to your body, and don't give up "Rolling the Bones" (Dice), and
do suffer from one of the DSM categories, that chance to actually wake up in
the morning and smile is one I am MORE than prepared to take. That's part of
the "Deal" when we are brought into this world...facing many chances. Yes,
it can be really overwhelming, but it can feel pretty darn good to realize
how precious life is to you.
Please, don't let depression rob that of you.
Sincerely,
James MacLachlan
codeee <cod...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8js30a$t73$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> "Well - no matter what anyone else says, I thank you for your post.
> I have bigger problems now than before I started taking an SSRI.
> I'll look for the book, the idea that this damage is permanent is
> verrrry scary.
>
> Thanks,
> codeee
>
>
Owl
challenge me, even the most ardent drug propronents. I have read
Glenmullen's book and he is not an idiot. He also NEVER claims to have
conclusive scientific evidence that SSRIs are or are not permenently
damaging. THE KEY MESSAGE IS TO OBTAIN A PROPER DIAGNOSIS from a
competent psychiatrist and determine whether SSRIs may be of value for
your case. Absolutely NO ONE on this newsgroup has scientific evidence
that SSRIs are or are not conclusively damaging in the long run. What
they do have is observation that the SSRIs work well and save many
lives, but that does not mean one can extrapolate scientific proof that
they are no long term dangers. EVERYONE (including the drug makers)
will need to wait for that PROOF. In the interim, get a proper
diagnosis, learn of all treatment options and make a choice based on
what offers the most hope for YOUR specific condition....SSRIs are
valuable treatment for many, provided they are needed. You may be the
one who needs them so do not reject them based on side effects alone.
Do not be foolishly biased in either direction. Anyone who took the
time to READ and COMPREHEND "Prozac Backlash" knows that the author has
NOT overstepped his bounds. He is simply presenting data that will be
useful in fueling more needed studies on SSRIs.. He clearly prescribes
SSRIs where indicated for serious depression. He challenges the
overmedication of millions (especially by family docs) when long term
medication use is not the best option, especially when there are no
follow up assessments. There are many on this NG who will need meds
for the very long term, some who will need them for shorter term and
some who do not need them at all. Determine who YOU are with your
physician of course and get the treatment you need.
LostBoyinNC
kjhNO...@notsoftspam.net
You've helped balance out my thinking after reading _Backlash_. I still
believe that my own situation was too mild for Paxil, and I'm in the
process of tapering off.
Maybe I was too quick, jumping in here with the book like that. I just
wanted to make people aware of it. The picture Glenmullen presents is a
compelling one, especially since similar things have happened in the past
(i.e. Thorazine). He does cite dozens of research articles, and I suppose
one could read those articles and determine if he is misrepresenting them
to make his case. I'm sure it's possible.
I'm also sure that there are people for whom the risks are worth it, and I
wasn't suggesting anything other than being aware of those potential
risks. My counselor certainly didn't mention them.
Thanks again for all the feedback.
LostBoyinNC
sucker.
flight ofthe phoenix
Many of the people in this and other groups are most "loyal"
to "their" drugs, and turn a blind eye to the "science" and underlying
theory supposedly behind them, and are very defensive of SSRIs and SSNRIs.
That alone should tell you something.
It's very reminiscent to the "cocaine elixirs" for "health" and "well
being" promoted earlier in the 20th century.
The "arguments" for the various cocaine elixirs are also similar to what the
manufacturers and "users" were saying, interestingly enough. Not much
different from what SSRI & SSNRI users say about "their" drugs.
Curious, isn't it? :)
This is why you are getting some knee-jerk reactions and _distortions_ and
out and out lies as to what Dr. Glenmullen wrote and who he is and what he
postulates in his book.
The hardcore "users" and the pharmaceutical industry does not like Dr.
Glenmullen or Dr. Ann Blake Tracy, but can not refute the evidence, studies
or logic, thus the insults, lies and distortions.
Dr. Glenmullen IMHO opinion is too "mild" on SSRIs.
The underlying theory behind SSRIs
(and SSNRIs which are similar enough - here's one citation for the SSNRIs:
http://www.ascp.com/public/pubs/tcp/1997/oct/ssri.html
)
is _ *wrong* _ in the first place.
For other books, pharmacology, studies, references and referencs for such,
refer to:
Let logic be your guide, not a mob of "users".
It would be interesting to hear your reactions as you get off the drug and
the difficulties you encounter in doing so.
================== begin original posting:
<kjhNO...@NOtsoftSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:sm4fnm2...@corp.supernews.com...
reader
cares if I have long-term damage from these drugs that help me
stay here for just a little longer.
LostBoyinNC
>You were correct the first time Sir.
>
>Many of the people in this and other groups are most "loyal"
>to "their" drugs, and turn a blind eye to the "science" and
underlying
>theory supposedly behind them, and are very defensive of SSRIs
and SSNRIs.
>That alone should tell you something.
>
> It's very reminiscent to the "cocaine elixirs" for "health"
and "well
>being" promoted earlier in the 20th century.
>The "arguments" for the various cocaine elixirs are also
similar to what the
>manufacturers and "users" were saying, interestingly enough.
Cocaine "elixirs?" BULLSHIT alert!!!!!!
Not much
>different from what SSRI & SSNRI users say about "their" drugs.
>
>Curious, isn't it? :)
>
>This is why you are getting some knee-jerk reactions and
_distortions_ and
>out and out lies as to what Dr. Glenmullen wrote and who he is
and what he
>postulates in his book.
>
>The hardcore "users" and the pharmaceutical industry does not
like Dr.
>Glenmullen or Dr. Ann Blake Tracy, but can not refute the
evidence, studies
>or logic, thus the insults, lies and distortions.
>
>Dr. Glenmullen IMHO opinion is too "mild" on SSRIs.
>The underlying theory behind SSRIs
Glenmullen is a gay faggot pussyboy and I cant stand him.
>
>(and SSNRIs which are similar enough - here's one citation for
the SSNRIs:
>http://www.ascp.com/public/pubs/tcp/1997/oct/ssri.html
>)
>is _ *wrong* _ in the first place.
>
>For other books, pharmacology, studies, references and
referencs for such,
>refer to:
>
>http://www.drugawareness.org/
THE SCIENTOLOGIST WEBSITE!!!!!!!
>
>Let logic be your guide, not a mob of "users".
>
>It would be interesting to hear your reactions as you get off
the drug and
>the difficulties you encounter in doing so.
>
BULLSHIT alert!!!! Everybody, the scientologists are back.
Eric
>
>
My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
-----------------------------------------------------------
salarmy4me
To others: I postulate that persons fearing SSRIs can try
something else, like tricyclics or MAO inhibitors. But they
run the risk of suffering more side-effects than SSRIs.
Desipramine is supposed to be the tricyclic with the fewest
side-effects.
LostBoyinNC
>I have nothing in common with them, and do not like their
approach or
>methodology, and lack of scientiffic knowledge or their bias
against
>science.
Bullshit
>
>http://www.drugawareness.org/ is _not_ a "scientology website"
as you claim.
Bullshit
>You are making it up or lying, and you do _not_ know what you
are talking
>about. You are merely shooting off your mouth.
Bullshit
>
>Nor are _any_ of the *scientiffic studies* cited there, along
with the
>links, and the science refered to there, have anything in
common with the
>Scientologists.
Bullshit
>
>The Scientologists do _not_ perform any scientiffic studies
regarding SSRIs
>or SSNRIs, nor is this site one of theirs.
>They just shoot off their mouths as you do.
>
>You should really read about how the various "cocaine elixers"
were touted
>and promoted in the past. How the devastating effects of
these "health
>preparations" were excused, as afecting "only a few people",
how there is
>more "overall good", how many people were helped by taking
these cocaine
>elixers, etc.
>
I dont give a fuck about "cocaine elixirs." What the fuck does
that have to do with treating my clinical depression? SSRIs dont
cause a sudden release of dopamine like cocaine does. SSRIs are
NOT addictive. Comparing SSRIs with cocaine is ridiculous. You
are an idiot. Please go away and quit taking up space on this NG.
>So now the manufacturers, and the people dependant on these
newer forms of
>drugs that affect neurotransmitters say pretty much the same
thing, clocked
>in _bad_ science, ignoring studies, and talking a lot about "a
chemical
>imbalance in the brain" and other nonsense, including
fraudulent and poor
>"studies" in order to market their drugs and get FDA approval.
Along with a
>spate of TV advertising :)
You are a fucking idiot. You ever had really severe clinical
depression?
>
>So what brands of these types of drugs (SSRIs and SSNRIs) have
you used in
>the past and are on now?
All of them and I feel much better on them than off them. They
treat my severe depression. Duh.
>
>Why do you get so excited about it?
Because I hate you people...think you scientologists all ought
to be in prison. Especially the leadership element of it. In
fact, I have a friend in the FBI. I might report you to their
alert HOTLINE and their counter terror team might come knock,
knock, knocking on your door at 3:00 AM and drag your sorry
scientologist ass out of your house by force against your will
and throw you in jail for being a fraud. You deserve to be tried
and convicted in a court of law for lying and deceit. If I was
in charge, that is exactly what would be happening to
scientologists. I wouldnt give a fuck about your Constitutional
rights, Id just like to see you suffer in a jail cell. You are
lucky I aint in charge. I hate pyramid schemes and hate cults.
>
>Is that all you can say?
>Read your history.
Why dont you get educated on the dangers of untreated mental
illness? And leave helpless mentally ill people alone.
>For that matter, read what Freud wrote in his cocaine letters.
>The cacaine elixers for "health and well being" and
for "melancholy" were
>the first mass marketed drugs affecting
>neurotransmitters of their day. You would have been one of the
first in line
>to take them, and swear loyalty to them and those that peddled
them,
>wouldn't you?
You are a brainwashed dweeb and you have no mind of your own.
You are extremely weakminded and have no backbone.
Basically...you are a pussy.
Get lost scientology asshole...
flight ofthe phoenix
I have nothing in common with them, and do not like their approach or
methodology, and lack of scientiffic knowledge or their bias against
science.
http://www.drugawareness.org/ is _not_ a "scientology website" as you claim.
You are making it up or lying, and you do _not_ know what you are talking
about. You are merely shooting off your mouth.
Nor are _any_ of the *scientiffic studies* cited there, along with the
links, and the science refered to there, have anything in common with the
Scientologists.
The Scientologists do _not_ perform any scientiffic studies regarding SSRIs
or SSNRIs, nor is this site one of theirs.
They just shoot off their mouths as you do.
You should really read about how the various "cocaine elixers" were touted
and promoted in the past. How the devastating effects of these "health
preparations" were excused, as afecting "only a few people", how there is
more "overall good", how many people were helped by taking these cocaine
elixers, etc.
So now the manufacturers, and the people dependant on these newer forms of
drugs that affect neurotransmitters say pretty much the same thing, clocked
in _bad_ science, ignoring studies, and talking a lot about "a chemical
imbalance in the brain" and other nonsense, including fraudulent and poor
"studies" in order to market their drugs and get FDA approval. Along with a
spate of TV advertising :)
So what brands of these types of drugs (SSRIs and SSNRIs) have you used in
the past and are on now?
Why do you get so excited about it?
Is that all you can say?
Read your history.
For that matter, read what Freud wrote in his cocaine letters.
The cacaine elixers for "health and well being" and for "melancholy" were
the first mass marketed drugs affecting
neurotransmitters of their day. You would have been one of the first in line
to take them, and swear loyalty to them and those that peddled them,
wouldn't you?
======================
LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0bc60c18...@usw-ex0103-019.remarq.com...
> "flight ofthe phoenix" <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >You were correct the first time Sir.
> >
> >Many of the people in this and other groups are most "loyal"
> >to "their" drugs, and turn a blind eye to the "science" and
> underlying
> >theory supposedly behind them, and are very defensive of SSRIs
> and SSNRIs.
> >That alone should tell you something.
> >
> > It's very reminiscent to the "cocaine elixirs" for "health"
> and "well
>
> Cocaine "elixirs?" BULLSHIT alert!!!!!!
>
>
LandscapeGuy00
AD's?
I saw a few pictures of myself at a party i was at for New Years and man, my
face looked crappy. I have gained wieght so that would account for the puffy
face a bit, but my face just doesnt look the same as it used to.It looked drawn
flight ofthe phoenix
esteem. Your attempting to label me as such (and also to smear respected and
learned researchers) despite my assertions, is the only thing someone
totally ill, and drug dependant like you can do or say. What else _can_ you
say to all the studies which show the invalidity of your basis for the drug
taking?
These drugs, (SSRIs and SSNRIs) release as much serotonin in the brain as
does PCP and LSD. Not a good thing...
Continue swallowing your drugs and have them permanently alter more of your
neural tissues, which will enable you to write more of what you already
have.
You may call Dr. Glenmullen a "faggot" and me a "scientologist" and Dr.
Tracy and many others whatever you like, but your insults and deceit changes
nothing.
SSRIs and SSNRIs really do not have a valid basis
and cause damage.
Hope you get better in time and eventually are able to handle reality and
get off your "medications", without further brain damage. Have you noticed
that your sense of balance is off
since taking these "medications"? Doesn't such a fundamental
altering of your brain tell you something?
Btw, you do not have to answer this of course, but what are you "on" _now_
in terms of dosage levels and for how long have you been on SSRIs and SSNRIs
and Synthroid, etc.
I am curious. Nothing to be ashamed of, is there?
============== to continue:
LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:2bd68b74...@usw-ex0102-013.remarq.com...
> "flight ofthe phoenix" <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >I am _not_ a Scientologist.
> >I have nothing in common with them, and do not like their
> approach or
> >methodology, and lack of scientiffic knowledge or their bias
> against
> >science.
>
> Bullshit
>
> >
> >http://www.drugawareness.org/ is _not_ a "scientology website"
> as you claim.
>
> Bullshit
>
>
> >You are making it up or lying, and you do _not_ know what you
> are talking
> >about. You are merely shooting off your mouth.
>
> Bullshit
>
>
> >
> >Nor are _any_ of the *scientiffic studies* cited there, along
> with the
> >links, and the science refered to there, have anything in
> common with the
> >Scientologists.
>
> Bullshit
>
Is this all you can say?
Have you explored and reviewed the site?
Or are you just talking?
>
> >
> >The Scientologists do _not_ perform any scientiffic studies
> regarding SSRIs
> >or SSNRIs, nor is this site one of theirs.
> >They just shoot off their mouths as you do.
> >
> >You should really read about how the various "cocaine elixers"
> were touted
> >and promoted in the past. How the devastating effects of
> these "health
> >preparations" were excused, as afecting "only a few people",
> how there is
> >more "overall good", how many people were helped by taking
> these cocaine
> >elixers, etc.
> >
>
> I dont give a fuck about "cocaine elixirs." What the fuck does
> that have to do with treating my clinical depression?
Since you forgot, I gave the example of the "cocaine elixers" of
the early 20th century to compare them to what is being said about SSRIs and
SSNRIs today ... the marketing, the excuses, the loyal "users"... Cocaine
in it's various forms was being touted for "well being", "health" and
"melancholia". As for what it has to do with your clinical depression?
I wasn't talking about _your_ clinical depression. It's not all about you,
believe it or not.
Btw, self centerdness is also a result of SSRI usage. If you weren't
before... you become so with continuous usage. A drug effect.
> SSRIs dont
> cause a sudden release of dopamine like cocaine does.
Never said it did.
Different pathways are affected, and the overall results are still not very
good.
> SSRIs are
> NOT addictive.
Wrong.
The withdrawal effects alone speak volumes.
You do not have such effects, when you discontinue
taking say ... an antibiotic, now do you?
That's why you have the politically correct term called
SSRI Discontinuance Syndrome.
Interesting how for heroin such a polite term is not used when an addict is
in withdrwal, isn't it?
> Comparing SSRIs with cocaine is ridiculous.
Both work by affecting neurotransmitter levels.
Don't they?
Both produce withdrawal effects with prolonged usage,
don't they?
> You
> are an idiot. Please go away and quit taking up space on > this NG.
Not a "nice" way to ask something. Do you usually talk like this to people?
Did you talk like this to people before you began taking
SSRIs?
>
>
> >So now the manufacturers, and the people dependant on these
> newer forms of
> >drugs that affect neurotransmitters say pretty much the same
> thing, clocked
> >in _bad_ science, ignoring studies, and talking a lot about "a
> chemical
> >imbalance in the brain" and other nonsense, including
> fraudulent and poor
> >"studies" in order to market their drugs and get FDA approval.
> Along with a
> >spate of TV advertising :)
>
> You are a fucking idiot.
Thank you. It's indeed a compliment coming from you.
Have a pill and please continue! :)
> You ever had really severe clinical
> depression?
No.
Does _having_ a mental disorder qualify you as a research pharmacologist
and an expert on such?
Should only active or former alcoholics discuss alcoholism?
>
> >
> >So what brands of these types of drugs (SSRIs and SSNRIs) have
> you used in
> >the past and are on now?
>
> All of them and I feel much better on them than off them.
Then why so many if as you imply they are all so good for you? :)
> They
> treat my severe depression. Duh.
Yes... regarding your "Duh", there is a mind numbing effect with SSRIs...
Hmm.... so you are dependant on them.
People said/say the same thing about cocaine, LSD & PCP (also serotonin
reuptake inhibitors), the barbituates, ampetamines, the opioids... it goes
on. Nothing changes excepts the packing one might say. SSRIs have FDA
"approval" even though a few people went to jail for that one...
Then again, many drugs had FDA approval that were later pulled off the
market.
>
> >
> >Why do you get so excited about it?
>
> Because I hate you people...think you scientologists all ought
> to be in prison.
See above (again!) my position regarding Scientology.
Focus your mind! Drug effects do that to you...
> Especially the leadership element of it. In
> fact, I have a friend in the FBI.
Is he also a "user"?
What's his name?
> I might report you to their
> alert HOTLINE and their counter terror team might come knock,
> knock, knocking on your door at 3:00 AM and drag your sorry
> scientologist ass out of your house by force against your will
> and throw you in jail for being a fraud. You deserve to be tried
> and convicted in a court of law for lying and deceit. If I was
> in charge, that is exactly what would be happening to
> scientologists. I wouldnt give a fuck about your Constitutional
> rights, Id just like to see you suffer in a jail cell. You are
> lucky I aint in charge.
You appear to have a hard time in functioning in the real world,
is this true?
> I hate pyramid schemes and hate cults.
I dislike them as well... :)
SSRIs and SSNRIs are the biggest "pyramid scheme" and cult we have ever
seen on this planet.
Another question would be, in view of your threats above:
How do you feel about drug use and addicts?
You are not at all concerned with them I see... are you?
Or for that matter, the researchers and scientists, and
"straights" such as myself, that oppose drug use and bad drugs?
Should we be put in prison as well?
Then you and others like you would "run the asylym"
and force us to take what you do?
Ram some Paxil and Prozac down our throats...
Would that make you feel better about yourself then?
> >
> >Is that all you can say?
> >Read your history.
>
> Why dont you get educated on the dangers of untreated mental
> illness?
I am.
This is why I oppose SSRIs and SSNRIs.
They are bogus.
> And leave helpless mentally ill people alone.
You just threatened me as you recall.
You effectively just said above, that "straights", who do not agree with the
basis of your drug habits, be it myself, or others, should have force
applied against us.
The "users" (us) versus the "non-users" (them)...
interesting way some of you "users" look at things indeed.
You are indeed very loyal and vehement about your drugs.
Facinating!
I am trying to help the mentally ill.... just not with invalid drugs. After
all, opium _also_ helps people with depression,
in fact, with more validity and far better and faster results then either
the SSRIs or SSNRIs, should the opioids therefore, be
mass marketed? And used by people for years and years?
To "treat" depression?
Would that be valid?
After all, SSRIs were originally meant for short term use... couple of
months... not years and years... did you know that?
>
> >For that matter, read what Freud wrote in his cocaine letters.
> >The cacaine elixers for "health and well being" and
> for "melancholy" were
> >the first mass marketed drugs affecting
> >neurotransmitters of their day. You would have been one of the
> first in line
> >to take them, and swear loyalty to them and those that peddled
> them,
> >wouldn't you?
>
> You are a brainwashed dweeb and you have no mind of your own.
> You are extremely weakminded and have no backbone.
> Basically...you are a pussy.
Just because I am not dependent on drugs like you?
An odd basis for your logic, isn't it?
>
> Get lost scientology asshole...
No.
You prove that I am needed here.
Look at what you have written in your posts.
It is amazing!
You "users" have not taken over yet. :)
Though there are more and more of you... you are also
"dosing" more and more school children with these "medications". After
all... if you take them, shouldn't they
and everyone else?
This reminds me very much of _Brave New World_ and
the "soma" drug. People in that book by Huxley, just couldn't cope without
their "soma".
Luck!
Andrew Lubomyr Chmilewsky
ProzacNation
flight ofthe phoenix <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<8jtla6$hcd$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>...
> You were correct the first time Sir.
>
> Many of the people in this and other groups are most "loyal"
> to "their" drugs,
ooooh
>and turn a blind eye to the "science" and underlying
ooooh, no science exactely knows how these drugs "exactely" affect brains
> theory supposedly behind them, and are very defensive of SSRIs and
SSNRIs.
> That alone should tell you something.
ooooh
> It's very reminiscent to the "cocaine elixirs" for "health" and "well
> being" promoted earlier in the 20th century.
ooooh cocain! LOL
One drug you can comper with Prozac is MDMA, LSD works completely different
on serotonin
> The "arguments" for the various cocaine elixirs are also similar to what
the
> manufacturers and "users" were saying, interestingly enough. Not much
> different from what SSRI & SSNRI users say about "their" drugs.
ooooh cocain? wasn't the last time heroin - opiate family compared with
SSRI's LOL!
You're a joke
> Curious, isn't it? :)
Yea make us a laugh!
> This is why you are getting some knee-jerk reactions and _distortions_
and
> out and out lies as to what Dr. Glenmullen wrote and who he is and what
he
> postulates in his book.
wow of course SSRI are not a wonder thing, but comparable with "benefits"
form them
they are
> The hardcore "users" and the pharmaceutical industry does not like Dr.
> Glenmullen or Dr. Ann Blake Tracy, but can not refute the evidence,
studies
> or logic, thus the insults, lies and distortions.
>
> Dr. Glenmullen IMHO opinion is too "mild" on SSRIs.
> The underlying theory behind SSRIs
>
> (and SSNRIs which are similar enough - here's one citation for the
SSNRIs:
> http://www.ascp.com/public/pubs/tcp/1997/oct/ssri.html
> )
> is _ *wrong* _ in the first place.
>
> For other books, pharmacology, studies, references and referencs for
such,
> refer to:
>
> http://www.drugawareness.org/
ooooooh Not again, scary scary
> Let logic be your guide, not a mob of "users".
Logic? LOL There is actually no study and no science can say how SSRI's
EXACTELY works
and even if they cause some "brain damage" was showed as a temporary and
question is
how REALLY these changes affect brains and how it affect them as entire if
at all. These are
so minor things that as a producers say even if they are so insignificant
to not worthy bother with.
Heavier brain damage you get by some advertisement posts.
> It would be interesting to hear your reactions as you get off the drug
and
> the difficulties you encounter in doing so.
>
ProzacNation
> These drugs, (SSRIs and SSNRIs) release as much serotonin in the brain as
> does PCP and LSD. Not a good thing...
You a researcher? LOL the only drug that REALISE serotonin is MDMA.
FULLPOINT
LSD works differently. But you can take SSRI in the category of light
psyhedelic
drugs if you really want.
> Continue swallowing your drugs and have them permanently alter more of
your
> neural tissues, which will enable you to write more of what you already
> have.
>
> You may call Dr. Glenmullen a "faggot" and me a "scientologist" and Dr.
> Tracy and many others whatever you like, but your insults and deceit
changes
> nothing.
>
> SSRIs and SSNRIs really do not have a valid basis
> and cause damage.
Yes. They probably cause "damage". Damage that is nothing to compare to
benefit.
READ THIS CAREFULLY : THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE PROZAC WOULD
CAUSE ANY BRAIN DAMAGE. Even if it does is not important.
> Hope you get better in time and eventually are able to handle reality and
> get off your "medications",
Prozac is not mainly medice for lost connection with reality...lithium
maybe
>without further brain damage. Have you noticed
> that your sense of balance is off
> since taking these "medications"?
my experience and from many others:
I was on Prozac only 3 months for a mild depression. I didn't notice
anything
when i stopped using it.
Doesn't such a fundamental
> altering of your brain tell you something?
>
> Btw, you do not have to answer this of course, but what are you "on"
_now_
> in terms of dosage levels and for how long have you been on SSRIs and
SSNRIs
> and Synthroid, etc.
Ah leave him alone.... love is all you need not crappy books
> I am curious. Nothing to be ashamed of, is there?
NO, but I would be ashamed if I were a Dr. to say some crap
djmmm
"personal accounts"
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Garland Hopkins
need to bring back moderate preparations of cocaine. Like coke chewing gum,
...very few toxic side effects when done in proper theraputic doses. The
indians of the Andes get that amount by chewing the leaves.
Garland
_________________________________________________________________
Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com
http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
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******************************************************************
Garland Hopkins
share of LSD and PCP though ...and it didn't feel like anti-depressants,
...except maybe a little bit ....just that little edge right before you start
getting off. I think that's what I like most about AD's.
_________________________________________________________________
Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com
http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
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******************************************************************
Garland Hopkins
term damage that SSRI's. I have terrible long term damage from excessive
exercise.
ProzacNation wrote:
> You a researcher? LOL the only drug that REALISE serotonin is MDMA.
> FULLPOINT
> LSD works differently. But you can take SSRI in the category of light
> psyhedelic
Crashing on MDMA is the worst, especially if you stay up all night hitting it
up with your girlfriend until you see her melt while your trying to find her
vein.
Garland Hopkins
_________________________________________________________________
Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com
http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
******************************************************************
Garland Hopkins
did not like to look in the mirror, everyone is complimenting me now on how much
healthier I look, ...and I sit in front of a mirror and make passes at myself.
Garland Hopkins
Effexor killing his soul. He left out the part about having what he described
as a mini-stroke while taking estacy and being involuntarily commited for it.
He left out that this happened long after he stopped taking the Effexxor. Who
knows what else he may have left out.
_________________________________________________________________
Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com
http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
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******************************************************************
LostBoyinNC
Russian jew huh?
LostBoyinNC
flight ofthe phoenix
news:3963B5D8...@home.com...
> Our environment, the air ..our food ...our cars ...our jobs ...do more
long
> term damage that SSRI's. I have terrible long term damage from excessive
> exercise.
A bold and unproven statement. Of the kind ciggarette smokers make, to
rationalise their addiction. Visit a cancer ward and experience the validity
of what you said.
There is _always_ an "excuse", isn't there?
Now to give an additional reply to "ProzacNation" in this post.
>
> ProzacNation wrote:
>
> > You a researcher?
No. A reader who can understand what he reads and does not ignore what he
reads. How about you?
> > LOL the only drug that REALISE serotonin is MDMA.
By "REALISE" I presume you mean "release" or inhibiting reuptake? Either
way, you are wrong again.
> > FULLPOINT
> > LSD works differently.
The *similarity* is the flood of serotonin to the brain by LSD, PCP or SSRIs
or SSNRIs. Too bad for you...
> > But you can take SSRI in the category of light
> > psyhedelic
_YOU_ TAKE IT AND EAT IT ... I have no interest in "tripping" or "vivid
dreaming/nightmares", altered chemical thinking, etc.
>
> Crashing on MDMA is the worst, especially if you stay up all night hitting
it
> up with your girlfriend until you see her melt while your trying to find
her
> vein.
Thank you for sharing this with us along with your interesting defense of
certain psychotrophic medications.
Enjoy your SSRIs and SSNRIs for other kinds of drug "snacking".
You have many here to agree with you and share your "sport". Have a safe
"trip".
Andrew Chmilewsky
flight ofthe phoenix
> Nunt-uh! At least I don't think so, ...or really know for sure. I have
taken my
(presumably, - in absence of quoted text - you are making a comparison of
LSD, etc. and antidepressant medications)
> share of LSD and PCP though ...and it didn't feel like anti-depressants,
> ...except maybe a little bit ....just that little edge right before you
start
> getting off. I think that's what I like most about AD's.
Interesting.
I am not all familiar with the phenomenon or the "drug effects" from
personal experience. I realize that this is of course, annecdotal.
Do you experience "vivid dreaming", insomnia as much as with LSD or PCP as
you did or did not with the antidepressants?
A.C.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com
> http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
> Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
> Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
> ******************************************************************
>
flight ofthe phoenix
> Yeah, I know a guy that left a personal account on one of those sites
about
> Effexor killing his soul. He left out the part about having what he
described
> as a mini-stroke while taking estacy and being involuntarily commited for
it.
> He left out that this happened long after he stopped taking the Effexxor.
Who
> knows what else he may have left out.
True, who knows?
There seems to be a lot of polymorphous drug use among those taking SSRIs
and SSNRIs... but there is no formal study that I am aware of documenting
such. Still... people using drugs tend to switch around a lot, it would
appear.
A.C.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com
> http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
> Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
> Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
> ******************************************************************
>
flight ofthe phoenix
> Those elixirs were great, it was in the original formulae for
> Coke-a-Cola.
Very true. Not many people realise why it was called Coke-a-Cola in the
first place.
>They
> need to bring back moderate preparations of cocaine.
> Like coke chewing gum,
Controversial.
> ...very few toxic side effects when done in proper theraputic doses. The
> indians of the Andes get that amount by chewing the leaves.
True.
They also have virtually no addiction problem.
A.C.
>
> Garland
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com
> http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
> Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
> Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
> ******************************************************************
>
flight ofthe phoenix
news:0291d15b...@usw-ex0107-049.remarq.com...
> That website is bias,
The studies that are linked to the site, are _real_, performed by respected
institutions. Pity that they do not take into account your _personal_
opinions and justify what you arbitrarily like to think. Not their fault, is
it?
> full of misinformation,
Such as?
> and clearly fictitious
> "personal accounts"
Not so "clear" to me as it is to you. Then again, I do not take
antidepressant medications and am not as blindly "loyal" to them as you are.
So our views on reality differ right there.
State the ones you find are "clearly fictitious 'personal accounts'" and on
what basis do you say that?
Otherwise, I have to state that _your_ statement regarding that is "clearly
fictitious".
Out of curiousity, what are you "on" anyway?
A.C.
flight ofthe phoenix
> Andrew Chmilewsky? no wonder you are so fucked up. You are a
> Russian jew huh?
Is your next question/request to pull down my pants for you while you sniff
about?
You are indeed a SSRI/SSNRI drug using redneck, aren't you? When are you
going to go on a rampage I wonder...
Did you swallow a few pills before you wrote that? ;
Still, you had enough of a brain left to spell my name correctly,
were the drugs wearing off at the time? ;)
Btw, you should capitalise the "j" in "Jew".
It might be considered offensive otherwise.
Andrew Chmilewsky
>
> Eric
>
> My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
Bet you are in "therapy" a lot, aren't you?
flight ofthe phoenix
> Andrew ole pal, we dont want you on our NG. Go away.
First, I am most assuredly not your "pal". I have nothing in common with
you, mentally or biochemically. Your receptors are fried, you know that,
don't you?
Second, who is "we"?
Did you know what was the original purpose of this group before the druged
out zombies such as yourself took over?
Third, who are you to tell me what to do or not do, and why should I pay
heed in either case?
Instead, why don't you go off, and pop a few more pills, so you don't have
to be what you are when your brain remnants are not chemically altered?
Sincerely,
Andrew Chmilewsky
flight ofthe phoenix
> Andrew Chmilewsky? no wonder you are so fucked up. You are a
> Russian jew huh?
You know... simply because one doesn't blast his/her mind away with a lot of
scientifically *invalid* psychotrophic "medications" does not mean one is
"fucked up".
Use a mirror next time you pop a pill, OK?
Andrew Chmilewsky
flight ofthe phoenix
soc.culture.jewish
A. C.
============== begin:
flight ofthe phoenix <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8k0l5n$etg$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:07a3b6f8...@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com...
> > Andrew Chmilewsky? no wonder you are so fucked up. You are a
> > Russian jew huh?
>
> Is your next question/request to pull down my pants for you while you
sniff
> about?
>
> You are indeed a SSRI/SSNRI drug using redneck, aren't you? When are you
> going to go on a rampage I wonder...
>
> Did you swallow a few pills before you wrote that? ;
> Still, you had enough of a brain left to spell my name correctly,
> were the drugs wearing off at the time? ;)
>
> Btw, you should capitalise the "j" in "Jew".
> It might be considered offensive otherwise.
>
> Andrew Chmilewsky
>
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
>
> Bet you are in "therapy" a lot, aren't you?
>
> >
flight ofthe phoenix
LostBoyinNC
flight ofthe phoenix
flight ofthe phoenix
LostBoyinNC
sound like one. Sound very odd and strange. You keep talking
about cocaine in old time Coca Cola. They have no put cocaine in
Coke for 75 years at least. Like I told you before, none of
these antidepressants are physiologically addictive, none of
them cause a sudden surge of dopamine like cocaine does and they
are safe drugs for major depression.
Your arguments are based on emotional hype and have no factual
basis to them at all. You dont include any facts in your claims
Andrew. All bs. The websites you refer us to for the "truth" are
websites clandestinely run by scientologists and Peter Breggin's
organisation. In other words, those websites you keep referring
to HAVE NO CREDIBILITY!
I suspect you are a schizophrenic jew who is a scientologist or
a sympathizer. Someone we should pay A LOT of attention to. LMAO
By the way, jew is not spelled with a capital j.
Andrew, quit trying to play games with this NG and just come out
in the open and publicly admit you have sympathies for
scientology. Honesty is always the best policy and I think you
would recruit more members if you just came out and told us you
were a scientologist. Lying never does anyone any good Andrew.
flight ofthe phoenix
> Nunt-uh! At least I don't think so, ...or really know for sure. I have
taken my
(presumably, - in absence of quoted text - you are making a comparison of
LSD, etc. and antidepressant medications)
> share of LSD and PCP though ...and it didn't feel like anti-depressants,
> ...except maybe a little bit ....just that little edge right before you
start
> getting off. I think that's what I like most about AD's.
Interesting.
I am not all familiar with the phenomenon or the "drug effects" from
personal experience. I realize that this is of course, annecdotal.
Do you experience "vivid dreaming", insomnia as much as with LSD or PCP as
you did or did not with the antidepressants?
A.C.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com
> http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
> Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
> Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
> ******************************************************************
>
> flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
>
LostBoyinNC
told me that they are friends of yours. They told me Andrew was
their leader. Did you get captured by the aliens Andrew? Did
they reprogram your brain? I bet you get messages sent
telepathically to your brain from the TV set huh?
What should I do Andrew? Aliens have landed in my backyard! Help
me! You are the UFO expert right? Didnt they "consult" you? You
gotta help me Andrew...the aliens told me that they were going
to come to your house next. Help!
Owl
make no apologies, but stay tuned for more debate.
LostBoyinNC
>> >
>> > My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
>>
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
>> > Up to 100 minutes free!
>> > http://www.keen.com
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
Do you think I give a flying fuck that you forwarded this post
to the jewish culture thing? You dont know who you are talking
to Andrew. Get lost you anti-med faggot...
flight ofthe phoenix
> Andrew...just curious. Are you a paranoid schizophrenic?
No.
I do not have a mental disorder - unlike yourself.
It seems to me, that if anyone is "paranoid", it is you?
Are you afraid "THE JEWS!" will "get" you?
Is that why you asked if I was a "Russian jew" and said "no wonder you are
fucked up"?
Did you forget you wrote that, between poping pills for your mental disorder
already?
>You
> sound like one. Sound very odd and strange. You keep talking
> about cocaine in old time Coca Cola. They have no put cocaine in
> Coke for 75 years at least.
I know that. I only mentioned it _once_, (remember?) in realtionship to the
current usage/marketing of SSRI & SSNRI "medications" and the old time
marketing tactics of "cocaine elixers" and how manufacturers and addicts
swore by them.
Remember?
> Like I told you before, none of
> these antidepressants are physiologically addictive,
As I told you before, you are _wrong_. Remember?
I cited the example of witdrawal effects, SSRI Discontinuance Syndrome
(remember?), and now will include SSRI Discontinuance *Rage* Syndrome. Not
pleasant, but clear examples of addiction.
> none of
> them cause a sudden surge of dopamine like cocaine does and they
> are safe drugs for major depression.
No they are not. See above and would you like other citations on the web?
A good place for you to start would be:
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.html
and if you wanted to get to the real nitty gritty
you would go to:
http://www.drugawareness.org/
>
> Your arguments are based on emotional hype and have no factual
> basis to them at all.
You are wrong again.
All the "emotional hype" is *yours*, along with your racism, anti-Semitic
statements, calling people like Dr. G. the author of _Prazac Backlash_ a
"faggot", making things up as you go along and saying that he is "an old
line psychiatrist" who believes in "talk therapy" rather then medication
(one of your _MANY_ *blatant* _lies_ btw, etc..
You do _not_ give *citations*, *references* and just fabricate statements
_continually_.
You claim SSRIs & SSNRIs are not addictive, when indeed they are, and when I
show you/give you examples of such, you ignore it and then repeat the *same*
ignorant lies in another posting of yours, within minutes.
> You dont include any facts in your claims
> Andrew. All bs.
Wrong and *another* _lie_.
See my past posts, and *re-read* your answers and _lack_ of answers to them.
I dare you to do that!
> The websites you refer us to for the "truth" are
> websites clandestinely run by scientologists and Peter Breggin's
> organisation. In other words, those websites you keep referring
> to HAVE NO CREDIBILITY!
So say *you* and no one else who is _serious_.
You constantly make these FALSE claims, and FAIL to back it up, and just
repeat your same lies and claims, don't you?
Just as you accuse me *repeatedly* of being a Scientologist, which I
*repeatedly* say I am not. Don't you?
>
> I suspect you are a schizophrenic jew who is a scientologist or
> a sympathizer. Someone we should pay A LOT of attention to. LMAO
My being a Jew or not a Jew, or and ardwark has nothing to do with what I am
saying and has no bearing on SSRI & SSNRI "medications", now does it?
Regarding my being a "schizophrenic", Jew or not, you are wrong again. Note,
it is _you_ that has a mental disorder(s) and taking psychotrophic drugs for
it, not me, remember?
If you read your posts, it easily discerned that _you_ are not thinking
rationally. The drugs you are taking _do_ damage the physical brain and well
and harm the mind. Or don't you know that?
> By the way, jew is not spelled with a capital j.
(Wrong again, but so what? Check out grammar book and regarding proper
nouns. Also refer to a dictionary and see how "Jew" is capitalised, you are
as wrong there as you are about your drugs, no matter how many times you
repeat the _same_ "errors" as though it were a mantra.)
>
> Andrew, quit trying to play games with this NG and just come out
> in the open and publicly admit you have sympathies for
> scientology.
I have *repeatedly* answered that. Did you forget again?
SSRIs and SSNRIs effect both short and long term memory.
Not for the better either. Did you know that? Will you remember that?
> Honesty is always the best policy and I think you
> would recruit more members if you just came out and told us you
> were a scientologist. Lying never does anyone any good Andrew.
True. So do not lie so much, my simple fellow.
*Deceiptfullness* is a known SSRI side effect btw.
Would you like a citation for that, besides a review of your
most recent posts? ;)
Would you like me to give you more citations on the most recent studies
regarding SSRIs and SSNRIs?
Or are these scientists and academic institutions all involved in a great
dark "c o n s p i r a c y" against the poor pharmaceutical companys and the
users of these drugs? :))
Are you afraid that someday these drugs of yours will be pulled off the
shelf as being bogus and damaging?
Despite the $$$ of the pharmaceutical firms and their mobs of ignorant,
illogical, vehement, zonked out users? :)
Relax! Pop another pill... it will be slow going but eventually they will
be. You can then go back to your LSD and PCP as you mentioned before...
drug users always find something... it just won't be proscribed for you in
pretty packing that's all.... nor will you be able to stick your precious
SSRI & SSNRI drugs on school kids as "medication" to mentally clone your
"spaced out" selves. Pity... right?
Funny... people like you are the very _first_ ones to call someone *not*
on medications or mentally ill as being "crazy" or "schizophrenic". I've
noticed that.... Very defensive, aren't you?
Andrew Chmilewsky
(Btw, are you still curious if I'm a "Russian jew" and would you like me to
pull down my pants and sniff about and make sure I am a Jew? Or do you want
to take another pill first before you ask again? :)
You, the most vehement, strident, "Prozacian"/Martians never cease to amaze
me!
flight ofthe phoenix
How often do you have these thoughts?
A.C.
=================
LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:33f43a75...@usw-ex0101-007.remarq.com...
> Andrew, did you know that aliens landed in my backyard? They
> told me that they are friends of yours. They told me Andrew was
> their leader. Did you get captured by the aliens Andrew? Did
> they reprogram your brain? I bet you get messages sent
> telepathically to your brain from the TV set huh?
>
> What should I do Andrew? Aliens have landed in my backyard! Help
> me! You are the UFO expert right? Didnt they "consult" you? You
> gotta help me Andrew...the aliens told me that they were going
> to come to your house next. Help!
>
James MacLachlan
disagree with Eric's characterization of Jewish people. We've agreed to
"disagree"! Yes, all of those chemicals make me such a "shallow"
person...like being able to complete my Master's Degree in Social Work;
become an Ass't Director of a Community Health Unit; Teach Undergrad
University courses...etc. Especially my Social-Democratic political
views..they make me a real "redneck", right???????????? Give it a rest.
James MacLachlan
flight ofthe phoenix <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8k0l5n$etg$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:07a3b6f8...@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com...
> > Andrew Chmilewsky? no wonder you are so fucked up. You are a
> > Russian jew huh?
>
> Is your next question/request to pull down my pants for you while you
sniff
> about?
>
> You are indeed a SSRI/SSNRI drug using redneck, aren't you? When are you
> going to go on a rampage I wonder...
>
> Did you swallow a few pills before you wrote that? ;
> Still, you had enough of a brain left to spell my name correctly,
> were the drugs wearing off at the time? ;)
>
> Btw, you should capitalise the "j" in "Jew".
> It might be considered offensive otherwise.
>
> Andrew Chmilewsky
>
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
>
> Bet you are in "therapy" a lot, aren't you?
>
> >
Garland Hopkins
have more irreversible damage from second hand smoke than ADs.
Who's trying to make an excuse? I don't need an excuse. I'll eat drano if I
want to.
_________________________________________________________________
Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com
http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
Countdown to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
******************************************************************
flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
Garland Hopkins
maybe? Or are you tanked up on the holy spirit or just self-righteousness?
flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
> LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:09231997...@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com...
> > Andrew ole pal, we dont want you on our NG. Go away.
>
> First, I am most assuredly not your "pal". I have nothing in common with
> you, mentally or biochemically. Your receptors are fried, you know that,
> don't you?
>
> Second, who is "we"?
> Did you know what was the original purpose of this group before the druged
> out zombies such as yourself took over?
>
> Third, who are you to tell me what to do or not do, and why should I pay
> heed in either case?
>
> Instead, why don't you go off, and pop a few more pills, so you don't have
> to be what you are when your brain remnants are not chemically altered?
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Andrew Chmilewsky
>
> >
> > Eric
> >
> > My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
> >
Garland Hopkins
dreaming, ...wish I could do more of it. I don't have nightmares, ...more
like action adventure romances.
flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
> Garland Hopkins <garl...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3963B4F1...@home.com...
> > Nunt-uh! At least I don't think so, ...or really know for sure. I have
> taken my
>
> (presumably, - in absence of quoted text - you are making a comparison of
> LSD, etc. and antidepressant medications)
>
> > share of LSD and PCP though ...and it didn't feel like anti-depressants,
> > ...except maybe a little bit ....just that little edge right before you
> start
> > getting off. I think that's what I like most about AD's.
>
> Interesting.
> I am not all familiar with the phenomenon or the "drug effects" from
> personal experience. I realize that this is of course, annecdotal.
>
> Do you experience "vivid dreaming", insomnia as much as with LSD or PCP as
> you did or did not with the antidepressants?
>
> A.C.
>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
> > http://garland.galacticworlds.com
> > http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
> > Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
> > http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
> > Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
> > http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
> > ******************************************************************
> >
> > flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
> >
Garland Hopkins
flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
> I can't believe this thread so I shall also forward this post to
> soc.culture.jewish
>
> A. C.
> ============== begin:
> flight ofthe phoenix <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:8k0l5n$etg$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> > LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:07a3b6f8...@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com...
> > > Andrew Chmilewsky? no wonder you are so fucked up. You are a
> > > Russian jew huh?
> >
> > Is your next question/request to pull down my pants for you while you
> sniff
> > about?
> >
> > You are indeed a SSRI/SSNRI drug using redneck, aren't you? When are you
> > going to go on a rampage I wonder...
> >
> > Did you swallow a few pills before you wrote that? ;
> > Still, you had enough of a brain left to spell my name correctly,
> > were the drugs wearing off at the time? ;)
> >
> > Btw, you should capitalise the "j" in "Jew".
> > It might be considered offensive otherwise.
> >
> > Andrew Chmilewsky
> >
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > > My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
> >
> > Bet you are in "therapy" a lot, aren't you?
> >
> > >
Garland Hopkins
self-destructive impulsiveness, ...many people with mental problems and
depression tend to also have substance and alcohol problems. When we seek help
and get medicines that help us, ...we get further stigmatized by anti-AD
zealots.
_________________________________________________________________
Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com
http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
Countdown to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
******************************************************************
flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
> Garland Hopkins <garl...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3963B6CB...@home.com...
> > Yeah, I know a guy that left a personal account on one of those sites
> about
> > Effexor killing his soul. He left out the part about having what he
> described
> > as a mini-stroke while taking estacy and being involuntarily commited for
> it.
> > He left out that this happened long after he stopped taking the Effexxor.
> Who
> > knows what else he may have left out.
>
> True, who knows?
> There seems to be a lot of polymorphous drug use among those taking SSRIs
> and SSNRIs... but there is no formal study that I am aware of documenting
> such. Still... people using drugs tend to switch around a lot, it would
> appear.
>
> A.C.
>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
> > http://garland.galacticworlds.com
> > http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
> > Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
> > http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
> > Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
> > http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
> > ******************************************************************
> >
> > djmmm wrote:
> >
> > > That website is bias, full of misinformation, and clearly fictitious
> > > "personal accounts"
> > >
Garland Hopkins
people who come to this newsgroups to share information and get support from
each other.
flight ofthe phoenix
> That's right, whether it's done as an attempt at self medication or
> self-destructive impulsiveness, ...many people with mental problems and
> depression tend to also have substance and alcohol problems. When we seek
help
> and get medicines that help us, ...we get further stigmatized by anti-AD
> zealots.
I am not sure about antidepressant "zealots". The tricyclic medications work
vastly different then do the SSRIs/SSNRIs.
Nor was their (tricyclics) introduction into the market and FDA approval
process accompanied by fraud as were the SSRIs.
If you notice, most of the negativity around the SSRIs are based around that
along with the false claims of their not being addictive and their being
touted as being "safe".
There is also the concern of the side effects from them being underreported,
excused and again the question of fraud comes into the picture.
Any studies showing the damage from SSRIs are immediately attacked by SSRI
zealots, who do not themseleves a favor by denigrating the studies or just
lie boldfacedly about SSRIs by claiming how safe SSRIs are, or that they
are not addictive, etc.
This is false, dangerous and misleading to say the least and ignores what
the studies show. Also again, consider the fraud involved by getting FDA
approval, the underreporting of the side effects, etc.
Recall that SSRIs were approved (fraudulently) after only 3 weeks of
clinical testing. Also note that they were intitially meant to be used for a
month to 3 months, _not_ years!!!
The money involved, the fraudulent research results, the "hush money" in
silencing the families of the victims of these misdescribed drugs is
testomony alone that these drugs do not belong in the market place.
UniVerSity
anecdotal experience with one SSRI for "mild social anxiety," and
the "scary things" you parrot from Glenmullen's book.
The former is not a compelling reason for anyone to think poorly of
SSRIs. The latter isn't, either; your "scary thing #1" is fallacious
of the post-hoc variety. #2 is fallacious, too; that a book cites
many "impressive" or "legitimate" studies or works, selectively using
them to advance its agenda, does not make (the book) "correct."
I'd have more respect for people like you if you'd read through the
sundry journal articles, studies, and papers on your own--coming to
your own conclusion. That a study appears in the AJP doesn't make its
tenets or findings "true," per se, but reading at this level you're
bound to find more objectivity than referring to Glenmullen's hysterics.
JM
In article <sm23et...@corp.supernews.com>,
kjhNO...@NOtsoftSPAM.net wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> It's been three weeks since I started taking Paxil at the urging of my
> counselor. I have mild social anxiety and occasional depression, and
had
> resisted taking any anti-depressants throughout my counseling.
Everyone
> else in my counseling group was on some form of medication and I
finally
> broke down and agreed to try it, just to see. Maybe I'd been
operating
> under a blanket of depression for so long that I didn't even notice
it any
> more, and Paxil would let me see without it.
>
> I started on 10mg and experienced the usual side effects -- nausea,
> lethargy, trouble focusing, low energy... With the occasional brief
> moment of "sunshine". Overall, the impact the drug was having on my
> motivation was cancelling out any benefits. The problems in my life
> weren't bothering me any more, but I wasn't doing much to resolve
them. I
> wasn't able to concentrate enough to go to chi gong classes or study
for
> my MCSE exam, and my job hunt ground to a halt.
>
> Determined to tough it out, I upped my dosage to 20mg this past
weekend,
> despite being increasingly worried about letting my body get
accustomed to
> a substance with adverse withdrawal symptoms. The tiredness got
worse and
> I didn't see much benefit. My state of mind would have been an
> improvement over a serious depression, but that hadn't been an issue
for
> half a year or more.
>
> Then I borrowed a book called _The Prozac Backlash_ (by Joseph
Glenmullen)
> from a friend. It's frightening and it makes me wish I'd never
started on
> Paxil. Now, I'm not just trolling here, and I'm not going to hang
around
> and harangue people (although I'm going to keep reading the group
until
> I'm sure I'm past the withdrawal stage). But I wanted to call
people's
> attention to the book.
>
> Scary Thing #1: The way the current usage of SSRIs matches earlier
> patterns of new "wonder drug" usage -- fanfare, public acceptance,
> overprescription before long-term effects can be determined,
widespread
> use for even minor ailments, suppression of negative data by drug
> manufacturers, and finally recognition (too late for many) of serious
> consequences.
>
> Scary Thing #2: The effects of SSRIs on dopamine levels and the
nervous
> system. Tics, tremors, muscle spasms, and parkinsonism. (Why, after
only
> two weeks of a low dosage of Paxil, was my jaw constantly sore?) The
> other parallels between Parkinson's disease and SSRI symptoms --
memory
> loss, cognitive impairment, and lethargy -- are frightening. What are
> people doing to themselves in order to overcome (in many cases) minor
> ailments?
>
> What's compelling about the book is the huge number of studies it
cites,
> articles in the Journal of Neuroscience, Journal of Clinical
Psychiatry,
> JAMA, and many others. There appears to be a groundswell of evidence
from
> many different independent experts that these drugs can permanently
damage
> your nervous system. I suppose one could trust the drug companies
(who
> have immense financial stakes in SSRIs) or HMOs (who benefit from
> short-term fixes over more expensive psychological treatment) or the
FDA
> (who have 1500 employees working on the new drug approval process but
only
> 6 monitoring post-approval safety concerns), but history shows that
the
> makers of new wonder drugs (like Thorazine) simply cannot be trusted
to
> put patient safety over financial concerns.
>
> Again, I'm not here to get into any arguments and I'm not going to be
a
> nuisance. The book makes its case much more comprehensively than I
could.
> I'm not saying everyone needs to stop taking SSRIs or anything, but
it's
> always best to have as much information as possible, and anyone
uncertain
> about SSRIs would do well to take a look at this book.
>
> That's all I have to say. I wish you all well.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
flight ofthe phoenix
> What are you here for?
I answered that one already.. I do have a concern with the mentally ill and
will also add, with the families of the mentally ill.
I hope you are not going to accuse me of being a Scientologist. I seem to be
"hearing" that one a lot. :)
> I hope it's not just to harass and insult depressed
> people who come to this newsgroups to share information and get support
from
> each other.
If anyone was harassed and insulted it was me along with others that are
well respected for their work in this area.
I have been called/told I was"faggot" a "Russian Jew", said to be
dangerously mentally ill, etc.
Why?
My "crime" was to share some data, and dispell misbeliefs and out and out
lies being viciously spread about SSRIs and SSNRIs. This is dangerous to say
the least.
You have obviously read the posts and my exchange of posts with those that
have attacked and lied about and to me and other readers about the issues of
SSRI/SSNRIs.
Your answers are in the posts and some of the sharp exchanges.
Thank you for directly and sincerely asking.
Andrew Chmilewsky
UniVerSity
The side of Eric that hates the fact that SSRIs help others, but not
himself. The side of Eric that feels tremendous guilt for his
antisemitic rhetoric. A side of Eric who must engage in parroting
Glenmullen, et. al., "ad obsequium."
This ng never ceases to disgust me. Eric *ploink* Andrew *ploink*
JM
In article <396423B8...@home.com>,
flight ofthe phoenix
> Andrew, ...you sound like an anti-drugite. Do you drink or smoke? Coffee
> maybe?
I have a beer from time to time... possibly as many as 3 times this past
month during this hot NJ summer. :)
Cigars? I confess!
Coffee? Indeed! Bring out the pot in the morning and please leave it here!
I also have pork sausage links with my eggs when so inclined.
No, I do not eat granola everyday and run ten miles every morning. :)
> Or are you tanked up on the holy spirit or just self-righteousness?
I am neither esp. religious nor self righteous.
My sharper responses were intended only for the creature posting "below me"
:)
My intent was not to *wound* anyone.
As it happened some ignorant bigot came... and greatly offended me and
others. I responded with more decorum but nevertheless, pointedly after
having made my assesment as to the creature's intellect, morals and
truthfullness and sincerity of purpose.
Is this the usual "greeting ritual" for this group? :)
Andrew Chmilewsky
>
> flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
>
> > LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:09231997...@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com...
> > > Andrew ole pal, we dont want you on our NG. Go away.
> >
> > First, I am most assuredly not your "pal". I have nothing in common with
> > you, mentally or biochemically. Your receptors are fried, you know that,
> > don't you?
> >
> > Second, who is "we"?
> > Did you know what was the original purpose of this group before the
druged
> > out zombies such as yourself took over?
> >
> > Third, who are you to tell me what to do or not do, and why should I pay
> > heed in either case?
> >
> > Instead, why don't you go off, and pop a few more pills, so you don't
have
> > to be what you are when your brain remnants are not chemically altered?
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Andrew Chmilewsky
> >
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > > My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
> > >
flight ofthe phoenix
> Which part is bold and unproven. What does it have to do with cigarettes?
As said, I have heard cigarette smokers talk about environmental pollution,
rather then admit such is a poor health practice, etc.
> I
> have more irreversible damage from second hand smoke than ADs.
Most difficult to be able to quantify such I should think...
>
> Who's trying to make an excuse? I don't need an excuse. I'll eat drano if
I
> want to.
That is your right, so long as you do not falsely encourage the practice of
such as "safe" and "harmless" to others and claim it is the health
equivalent of carrot juice.
Andrew Chmilewsky
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com
> http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
> Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
> Countdown to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
> http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
> ******************************************************************
>
> flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
>
> > Garland Hopkins <garl...@home.com> wrote in message
flight ofthe phoenix
news:nwR85.52706$HK2.8...@news20.bellglobal.com...
> Well "flight", FYI, I AM a PROUD SSRI/SNRI using Socialist!!!
Well, well... did you become a socialist while using SSRI/SSNRI medications?
;)
However, this is _off topic_, your quaint views on economic systems...
What is of more interest to me is that you stated: "...I AM a PROUD
SSRI/SNRI using.."
THAT I find most interesting... I believe you understand where I am coming
from. It is very much like a person who is proud of his crutches, and seeks
to bash you on the head with them.
An interesting attitude, but it does not exactly merit compassion on my
part.
> I strongly
> disagree with Eric's characterization of Jewish people. We've agreed to
> "disagree"! Yes, all of those chemicals make me such a "shallow"
> person...like being able to complete my Master's Degree in Social Work;
Good for you! Now pause a bit and explain to me from where you obtained the
quoted "shallow" from?
> become an Ass't Director of a Community Health Unit; Teach Undergrad
> University courses...etc. Especially my Social-Democratic political
> views..they make me a real "redneck", right???????????? Give it a rest.
I suggest, after you tell me where you got the quoted "shallow" from, why do
you imply that I called _you a redneck?
Also, why are you more intent on addressing _me, rather then your Jew hating
buddy? Is it because he is pro-SSRI/SSNRI and I am not? Is that the greater
goodness as you see it?
Most interesting, _despite_ your socialist views, drugs are a much more
important point of commonality for you and a lying bigot, then anything
else... notwithstanding, some redneck's racist remarks.
Facinating!
Socialists are great fun! Most logical people, always! A very humanitarian
lot.. from Moskva (Moscow) to Amerika! :))
Andrew Chmilewsky ;)
>
> James MacLachlan
>
> flight ofthe phoenix <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:8k0l5n$etg$1...@slb0.atl.mindspring.net...
> > LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:07a3b6f8...@usw-ex0106-045.remarq.com...
> > > Andrew Chmilewsky? no wonder you are so fucked up. You are a
> > > Russian jew huh?
> >
> > Is your next question/request to pull down my pants for you while you
> sniff
> > about?
> >
> > You are indeed a SSRI/SSNRI drug using redneck, aren't you? When are you
> > going to go on a rampage I wonder...
> >
> > Did you swallow a few pills before you wrote that? ;
> > Still, you had enough of a brain left to spell my name correctly,
> > were the drugs wearing off at the time? ;)
> >
> > Btw, you should capitalise the "j" in "Jew".
> > It might be considered offensive otherwise.
> >
> > Andrew Chmilewsky
> >
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > > My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
> >
> > Bet you are in "therapy" a lot, aren't you?
> >
> > >
flight ofthe phoenix
A simple comparison of my and his writting styles (very simple indeed:)
would clearly show you are in error.
I think you're a lot of fun too!
A.C.
===================================
UniVerSity <mick...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8k1hvo$ktb$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Another of Eric's personalities has shown itself in "Andrew Chmilewsky."
> The side of Eric that hates the fact that SSRIs help others, but not
> himself. The side of Eric that feels tremendous guilt for his
> antisemitic rhetoric. A side of Eric who must engage in parroting
> Glenmullen, et. al., "ad obsequium."
>
> This ng never ceases to disgust me. Eric *ploink* Andrew *ploink*
>
> JM
>
>
> In article <396423B8...@home.com>,
> Garland Hopkins <garl...@home.com> wrote:
> > Uh-oh!
> >
> > flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
> >
> > > I can't believe this thread so I shall also forward this post to
> > > soc.culture.jewish
> > >
> > > A. C.
> > > ============== begin:
Beaudogggy
>They also have virtually no addiction problem.
>
LOL. That's why they chew it every day for their entire lives. It reminds me
of when Tallulah Bankhead, a heavy cocaine user, was asked whether the drug was
addictive. She proclaimed "No, dahling, and I should know because I've been
using it for years."
djmmm
try: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/
The saftey of these drugs is WELL documented.
flight ofthe phoenix
> You are perpetuating some very misleading information.
> try: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/
> The saftey of these drugs is WELL documented.
By whom?
The pharmaceutical companys? :)
http://www.drkoop.com/news/stories/may/r/trials_money.html
and
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/128/nation/Prozac_revisited+.shtml
and
http://search.boston.com/globe.vts
By people who are loyal users and addicted to it?
http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/safety/2000/mar00.htm#effexo
and: (Paxil Causes Brain Atrophy)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list
_uids=10807485&dopt=Abstract
Care for some more citations rather then empty talk?
You are performing a diservice to the mentally ill and to all others
("straights") who may be having a hard time and contemplating taking such
medications, by saying such things.
Also, the familes of those taking these bogus meds.
In one study, SSRIs turned "straights" into violent, mentally ill people. If
this is what these drugs can do to "straights" in one citation, imagine what
it can do to someone having a hard enough time and is truly ill.
Not a good idea. Besides there are other alternatives.
Regards,
Andrew Chmilewsky
flight ofthe phoenix
Sorry! A couple of the links I gave below have expired.
Would you like the text equivalent posted here?
Contritely,
Andrew Chmilewsky
===============
flight ofthe phoenix <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8k23ut$s6m$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net...
flight ofthe phoenix
news:20000706090758...@ng-fx1.aol.com...
Good point! :))
I stand corrected. Thank you!
A.C.
flight ofthe phoenix
Earlier:
"flight ofthe phoenix <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8k24d1$obv$1...@slb2.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> Sorry! A couple of the links I gave below have expired.
> Would you like the text equivalent posted here?
I gave this expired link:
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/128/nation/Prozac_revisited+.shtml
A rather interesting article that also speaks of Dr. Glenmullen and his book
_Prozac Backlash_, among other things.
Enjoy!
>
> Contritely,
================
Prozac revisited
As drug gets remade, concerns about suicides surface
By Leah R. Garnett, Globe Staff, 5/7/2000
Just as the 14-year patent on Prozac is about to expire and the drug's
maker, Eli Lilly and Co., is preparing to launch a new version, a body of
evidence has come to light revealing the antidepressant's dark side.
The company's internal documents, some dating to the mid-1980s, as well as
government applications and patents, indicate that the pharmaceutical giant
has known for years that its best-selling drug could cause suicidal
reactions in a small but significant number of patients. The reports could
become critical as Lilly seeks government approval for its new Prozac.
Among the findings:
- Internal documents show that in 1990, Lilly scientists were pressured by
corporate executives to alter records on physician experiences with Prozac,
changing mentions of suicide attempt to "overdose" and suicidal thoughts to
"depression."
- Three years before Prozac received approval by the US Food and Drug
Administration in late 1987, the German BGA, that country's FDA equivalent,
had such serious reservations about Prozac's safety that it refused to
approve the antidepressant based on Lilly's studies showing that previously
nonsuicidal patients who took the drug had a fivefold higher rate of
suicides and suicide attempts than those on older antidepressants, and a
threefold higher rate than those taking placebos.
- Lilly's own figures, in reports made available to the Globe, indicate that
1 in 100 previously nonsuicidal patients who took the drug in early clinical
trials developed a severe form of anxiety and agitation called akathisia,
causing them to attempt or commit suicide during the studies.
- Though Lilly has steadfastly defended the drug's safety and downplayed
studies linking Prozac to suicide, the patent for the new Prozac,
R-fluoxetine, expected to be marketed by Lilly beginning in 2002, notes that
the new version will not produce several existing side effects including
"akathisia, suicidal thoughts, and self-mutilation," which the patent calls
"one of its more significant side effects."
- A McLean Hospital researcher and associate professor at Harvard Medical
School, Dr. Martin Teicher, whose early 1990s studies linked Prozac to
akathisia and suicide, is a co-inventor of the new Prozac, which Lilly plans
to market, along with Timothy J. Barberich, the CEO of Sepracor Inc., a
Marlborough drug company, and James W. Young.
- A just-published book, "Prozac Backlash," by a Cambridge psychiatrist, Dr.
Joseph Glenmullen, has drawn Lilly's ire for discussing Prozac's link to
suicide, tics, withdrawal symptoms, and other side effects of Prozac and
similar antidepressants.
Lilly officials continue to defend the drug's effectiveness, saying its
track record is borne out by the fact it is still the most widely prescribed
drug of its kind. In a written statement, Jeff Newton, a Lilly spokesman,
said: "There is no credible evidence that establishes a causal link between
Prozac and violent or suicidal behavior. There is, to the contrary,
scientific evidence showing that Prozac and medicines like it actually
protect against such behaviors."
Using figures on Prozac both from Lilly and independent research, however,
Dr. David Healy, an expert on the brain's serotonin system and director of
the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine at the University of
Wales, estimated that "probably 50,000 people have committed suicide on
Prozac since its launch, over and above the number who would have done so if
left untreated."
Healy, meanwhile, is conducting a new study that he says is the first of its
kind, giving antidepressants to healthy people to study possible links to
suicide. The results are expected to be published in June.
Prozac's success is certainly unquestioned. The introduction of the drug to
the US market in the late 1980s changed the way Americans viewed their most
intimate emotions and limitations. Billed as a wonder drug to combat
depression by boosting levels of the brain chemical serotonin, Prozac and
others like it were also said to remedy a host of human frailties from poor
self-esteem and concentration to fear of rejection.
By the end of last year, more than 35 million people worldwide were using
the drug, which provided Lilly with more than 25 percent of its $10 billion
in 1999 revenue.
Yet the problems with Prozac were known even before it was introduced to the
US market. Figures in a 1984 Lilly document indicated that akathisia, the
severe agitation that can lead to suicide, occurs in at least 1 percent of
patients, a level considered a "frequent" event, and as such must be
disclosed in a company's product literature and package inserts. But there
is no such disclosure in Prozac's US literature, and it is not clear whether
the FDA panel charged with approving Prozac simply overlooked or did not
have access to certain critical data of Lilly's.
As a result, researchers say that most US doctors do not know to warn
patients of the potentially dangerous effect which, according to published
literature on the topic, can be alleviated with sedatives or by going off
the drug.
German regulators, who eventually approved Prozac for use in that country,
require a warning label about the risk of suicide and suggest the concurrent
use of sedatives when necessary.
Akathisia is listed in Lilly's US product literature, but as an infrequent
event in Prozac users. No mention is made of its potential relationship to
suicide.
A relationship, however, was found in a Globe search of US patents. The
patent for the new Prozac or R-fluoxetine (US Patent no. 5,708,035), which
Lilly will market after the existing patent expires in 2001, contains a
wealth of information about the original Prozac. According to the patent,
the new Prozac will decrease side effects of the existing Prozac such as
headaches, nervousness, anxiety, and insomnia, as well as "inner
restlessness (akathisia), suicidal thoughts and self-mutilation" - the same
effect Lilly has contended has not occurred in any substantial way in some
200 lawsuits against it over the past decade. Most of the suits were settled
out of court and the terms kept confidential.
A 1990 communique
In an electronic communique obtained by author Glenmullen dated Nov. 13,
1990, from Claude Bouchy, a Lilly employee in Germany, to three Lilly
corporate executives at the company's Indianapolis headquarters, Bouchy says
he and a colleague "have problems with the directions our safety people are
getting from the corporate group (Drug Epidemiology Unit) and requesting
that we change the identification of events as they are reported by the
physicians. . . . Our safety staff is requested to change the event term
`suicide attempt' [as reported by the physician] to `overdose.' "
Bouchy continued that ". . . it is requested that we change . . . `suicidal
ideation' to `depression.' "
And then Bouchy makes an appeal to his US Lilly colleagues: "I do not think
I could explain to the BGA, to a judge, to a reporter or even to my family
why we would do this especially on the sensitive issue of suicide and
suicide ideation. At least not with the explanations that have been given to
our staff so far."
Lilly has also aggressively sought to discredit researchers who published
data linking its product to suicide. One of its early targets was Dr. Martin
Teicher, an associate professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and
a McLean Hospital researcher, who wrote a crucial paper on the link between
suicide and Prozac in 1990; he found that 3.5 percent of patients put on
Prozac either attempt or commit suicide due to severe agitation from
akathisia. As a result of Lilly's campaign, many in the psychiatric
community say they believe Teicher has distanced himself from his original
work. But in a rare interview with the Globe, Teicher said that he stood by
his work, and that the ability of Prozac to induce suicide in a minority of
patients "is a real phenomenon."
Teicher, Barberich, and Young filed their patent for the new Prozac in
August 1993, the same year Teicher published another report, this one in the
journal Drug Safety titled "Antidepressant Drugs and the Emergence of
Suicidal Tendencies."
The paper was a direct challenge to data reported in the March 1991 issue of
the Journal of Clinical Psychiatry by Drs. Maurizio Fava and Jerrold
Rosenbaum of Massachusetts General Hospital. Their study found no
significant difference in "suicidal ideation" in patients treated with
fluoxetine compared to those receiving other antidepressants.
Teicher wrote in his 1993 paper that Fava and Rosenbaum's statistics were
flawed. Using Fava and Rosenbaum's data, Teicher came to the opposite
conclusion: namely, that patients on Prozac were at least three times more
likely to become suicidal than those on older antidepressants.
The FDA came up with similar results even before Teicher published his 1993
data. Dr. David Graham, chief of the FDA's Epidemiology Branch, wrote on
Sept. 11, 1990, that Lilly's data on suicide and Prozac, as well as the Fava
and Rosenbaum study, were insufficient to prove that Prozac was safe. In an
internal FDA memo, Graham wrote: "Because of apparent large-scale
underreporting, the firm's analysis cannot be considered as proving that
fluoxetine and violent behavior are unrelated."
"Prozac Backlash"
Now a decade later, Lilly has targeted Dr. Joseph Glenmullen, whose book
"Prozac Backlash" has apparently incensed Lilly executives.
Glenmullen, a clinical instructor in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School
and a clinician at the Harvard University Health Services, says he wrote the
book because he was alarmed by the number of patients who were reporting
severe side effects from the serotonin-boosting antidepressants including
Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, and Luvox. "The two most upsetting side effects were
patients becoming suicidal on the drugs, and the development of disfiguring
facial tics," he said in an interview.
After obtaining hundreds of pages of FDA documents through the Freedom of
Information Act, as well as internal Lilly memos that are part of the public
record in lawsuits filed against the drug company, Glenmullen wrote that
Lilly had tried to downplay side effects of Prozac for years.
Lilly alerted newspapers and TV stations to the book and began a campaign to
discredit the author, saying that Harvard Medical School professors were
unfamiliar with his work and didn't recognize his name. Glenmullen, a
graduate of Harvard Medical School, is one of 415 clinical instructors in
medicine at Harvard.
Blast from a critic
Chief among Glenmullen's critics is Mass. General's Rosenbaum, a professor
of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, who, in a written statement sent to
the Globe calls "Prozac Backlash" a "dishonest book" that is " manipulative"
and "mischievous."
But Rosenbaum's objectivity has also been questioned. Not only was his 1991
study on Prozac and suicide criticized by at least two sets of researchers
as well as the FDA, documents obtained by the Globe show that Rosenbaum's
relationship to Lilly is a cozy one: he has served as a Prozac researcher
and sat on a marketing advisory panel for Lilly before Prozac was launched.
When asked in an interview why he was speaking out against Glenmullen's
book, Rosenbaum said that the suicide controversy was "old news" and that
the book presents the information as new research. He noted that akathisia
is "pretty rare" and that "it doesn't occur more than in people given a
placebo."
But because there is no official reporting system for drug side effects, no
one knows how common drug side effects are, said Larry Sasich, a research
analyst at Public Citizen in Washington, D.C.
"There is no active surveillance system to look at adverse events," he said.
"Unless something very unfortunate happens and a large number of people are
harmed in a unique way, no one is going to look at it; nobody ever puts two
and two together."
Sepracor's patent
On April 12, the Federal Trade Commission opened the way for Lilly to market
Teicher's, Barberich's, and Young's new Prozac, for which Sepracor holds the
patent. The new Prozac, R-fluoxetine, is a modified form of an ingredient
found in Prozac, which, according to Sepracor, not only has fewer side
effects but more potential uses and benefits than the original.
In making the decision, the FTC rejected arguments from its lawyers and the
generic drug industry that the agreement unfairly limits generic Prozac
competition.
According to a Sepracor press release dated April 13, the company will
receive an upfront payment and license fee of $20 million from Lilly and an
additional $70 million based on the progression of the drug. Sepracor will
receive royalties, and in exchange, Lilly will get the exclusive world
rights to R-fluoxetine for all indications and uses. Lilly will be
responsible for the development of the drug, regulatory submissions, product
manufacturing, marketing and sales, according to the release.
Glenmullen wonders whether the new Prozac will, in fact, be little more than
an effort to prolong the life of a product with a soon-to-expire patent.
Although it is touted as having fewer side effects, no one knows what
effects may surface once large numbers of people begin taking it for months
or years. In the epilogue to his book, he simply says: "Like any new drug,
it too will be an ongoing experiment."
This story ran on page A01 of the Boston Globe on 5/7/2000.
© Copyright 2000 Globe Newspaper Company.
djmmm
to mention anything about the countless number of people these meds
have helped.
Paxil causes brain atrophy? please.
SSRI WITHDRAW does not indicate addiction! ADDICTION must include a
compulsive need for the substance, and TOLERANCE.
You say "In one study, SSRIs turned "straights" into violent, mentally
ill people." OK. What about the 500 other studies that prove the
efficacy of these drugs??
again: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/
not all studies are funded by drug co's.
In article <8k23ut$s6m$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "flight ofthe
Garland Hopkins
statements. Your responses may only have been directed at him, ...but they
reveal your attitude. It's the same attitude that people on meds have to put up
with all the time.
flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
> Your receptors are fried, you know that,
> > > don't you?
>
> > > Did you know what was the original purpose of this group before the
> druged
> > > out zombies such as yourself took over?
>
> > > Instead, why don't you go off, and pop a few more pills, so you don't
> have
> > > to be what you are when your brain remnants are not chemically altered?
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Andrew Chmilewsky
A lot of the information you cite has been around a long time, ...and has
already been discussed to death. Most people are aware of the books that warn
about the controversial aspects of ADs these days. Magazines, TV shows, and
Talk radio like to use it as a hot button topic. This newsgroup gets a steady
stream of people that come in thinking that they have ground-shaking news
because they just read a book about it.
I'll agree with some points. No one knows for sure what long-term use of these
drugs will do (the same can be said for most "new" drugs). These drugs are
toxic, (so are most medicines ..even over the counter ones). One can become
dependent on them, ( as can anyone who uses a medicine to control a chronic
illness), Drugs are over prescribed, doctors and therapist take the easy way
out too often and put people on ADs who don't need them. Patients are
susceptible to advertising that sells them drugs to "enhance" their lives
rather than to fight clinical depression. More money should be spent on curing
illness rather than developing drugs to control the symptoms.
>
> > >
> > > >
Sean
organization. "Dr." Tracy has no medical training or rigorous academic
background. She and the ICFDA publicize dubious *anecdotal* accounts. She
has not engaged in any kind of controlled experimentation, nor has she
published reproducible results.
Hearsay and anecdote does not equal science.
flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
> Not a good idea. Besides there are other alternatives.
Such as?
- Sean
kjhNO...@notsoftspam.net
> I'd have more respect for people like you if you'd read through the
> sundry journal articles, studies, and papers on your own--coming to
> your own conclusion. That a study appears in the AJP doesn't make its
> tenets or findings "true," per se, but reading at this level you're
> bound to find more objectivity than referring to Glenmullen's hysterics.
Oh, absolutely. In the past, when I've had ready access to a university
library, I did a fair amount of research in psychopharmacological journals
(and still have the photocopies).
I've already mea culpa'd over my first message coming across as a bit
alarmist, and suggested that Glenmullen's book could be compared to the
articles he cites to see if there are any misinterpretations or
distortions. I'm open to that possibility. My ability to do that kind of
research is greatly curtailed these days, though, and since I was on the
brink of discontinuing Paxil anyway, it didn't take much convincing.
I assume from your comment about respect that you've done your own
research, read the journal articles, come to your own informed opinions?
The historical evidence of drug companies doing inadequate testing and
downplaying adverse effects is compelling enough that continuing on an
SSRI without doing the research would be as foolish as discontinuing a
needed SSRI based on Glenmullen's hysterics, no?
Garland Hopkins
and you found a medication that made you feel well ....what would it matter
to you if the drug companies acted as typical profit driven corporations.
kjhNO...@notsoftspam.net
> It depends, if you had suicidal ideation due to chronic long term depression,
> and you found a medication that made you feel well ....what would it matter
> to you if the drug companies acted as typical profit driven corporations.
No, I probably wouldn't care. I'd take the drug.
Then I'd do the research. That's all I'm advocating -- that people have a
right to know the risks and effects of what they're being prescribed. If
studies showed that SSRI users were in fact at a higher risk of
parkinsonism and cognitive defects, but it still helped the majority of
users without those effects, I'd still be in favor of allowing people to
assume those risks if they knew about them.
Garland Hopkins
credibility is attached to information because the bearer uses the words "studies
have shown", this can mean anything from spending a few hours reading reports,
interviewing a half dozen people, or something more substantial. Other trick words
....indicate, may, might, could be, quite possibly, a chance of, evidence
indicates, independent studies show substantial evidence, ......all these things
mean " we have a hunch".
Until there is conclusive proof there is no need to add one or two more "might
cause" items to a list of side effects that already includes
More common side effects may include:
Abnormal dreams, abnormal ejaculation/orgasm, anxiety, blurred vision,
chills, constipation, diarrhea, dizziness, dry mouth,
extreme muscle tension, flushing, frequent urination, gas, headache,
impotence, inability to sleep, indigestion, loss of appetite,
nausea, nervousness, prickling or burning sensation, rash, sleepiness,
sweating, tremor, vomiting, weakness, yawning
Less common side effects may include:
Abnormal thinking, abnormal vision, accidental injury, agitation, belching,
blood in the urine, bronchitis, bruising, changeable
emotions, chest pain, confusion, decreased sex drive, depression, difficult
or painful urination, difficulty in breathing, difficulty
swallowing, dilated pupils, ear pain, high or low blood pressure,
inflammation of the vagina, injury, itching, lack of orgasm,
light-headedness on standing up, lockjaw, loss of touch with reality,
menstrual problems, migraine headache, neck pain, orgasm
disturbance, rapid heartbeat, ringing in the ears, taste changes,
twitching, vague feeling of illness, vertigo, weight loss or gain
Rare side effects may include:
Abnormally slow movements, abnormal movements, abnormal sensitivity to
sound, abnormal speech, abortion, abuse of alcohol,
acne, alcohol intolerance, allergic reaction, anemia, angina pectoris
(crushing chest pain), apathy, appendicitis, arthritis, asthma,
bad breath, black stools, bleeding gums, blocked intestine, blood clots,
blood clots in the lungs, blood disorders, bluish color to
the skin, body odor, bone disease and/or pain (including osteoporosis),
breast enlargement or swelling, breast pain, brittle nails,
bulging eyes, cancerous growth, cataracts, changed sense of smell, chest
congestion, cold hands and feet, colitis (inflamed
bowel), confusion, conjunctivitis ("pinkeye"), coughing up blood, deafness,
delusions, depression, diabetes, double vision, drug
withdrawal symptoms, dry eyes, dry skin, ear infection, eczema, enlarged
abdomen, enlarged thyroid gland, exaggerated feeling
of well-being, excessive hair growth, excessive menstrual flow, eye
disorders, eye pain, fainting, fungus infection, gallstones,
glaucoma, gout, hair discoloration, hair loss, hallucinations, hangover
effect, heart disorders, hemorrhoids, hepatitis, herpes
infections, high cholesterol, hives, hostility, hyperventilation (fast,
deep breathing), inability to communicate, increased mucus,
increased physical activity, increased salivation, increased sensitivity to
touch, increased sex drive, inflammation of the stomach,
intestines, anus and rectum, gums, tongue, eyelid, or inner ear,
intolerance to light, involuntary eye movements, irregular or
slow heartbeat, kidney disorders, lack of menstruation, large amounts of
urine, laryngitis, loss of consciousness, loss of muscle
movement, low or high blood sugar, menstrual problems, middle ear
infection, mouth fungus, mouth sores, muscle spasms,
muscle weakness, nosebleeds, over- and underactive thyroid gland, overdose,
paranoia, pelvic pain, pinpoint pupils, "pins and
needles" around the mouth, pneumonia, prolonged erection, psoriasis, rectal
hemorrhage, reduced menstrual flow, restlessness,
secretion of milk, seizures, sensitivity to light, skin disorders, skin
eruptions or hemorrhage, skin inflammation, sleep
disturbance, soft stools, stiff neck, stomach or peptic ulcer, stroke,
stupor, sugar in the urine, swelling due to fluid retention,
swollen or discolored tongue, taste loss, temporary failure to breathe,
thirst, twisted neck, ulcer, unconsciousness, uncoordinated
movements, urgent need to urinate, urination at night, uterine and vaginal
hemorrhage, varicose veins, voice changes, vomiting
blood, yellowed eyes and skin
flight ofthe phoenix
... and address _you_ completely. Believe it!
Wait for me till then, OK my little friend?
Btw,
*respond *within* the body of the message,lying, manipulative _drug
addicted_ *coward*.
You are afraid to do that, aren't you?
But not to sneak around manipulatively and lie... right?
Paxil shrink your brain too much, so you can't "think"?
What?
You think, sly drug addict/*pusher* that you are, that by sneaking around in
this manner, you can _FOOL EVERYONE_? You are a sneaking, little deviant
and coward, with a _big mouth_.
Next, your quote from below:
(don't worry - I'll be back, and I am aware of the contradiction)
"> again: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ "
Why do you __ "again" __ have this link open up to an
*empty* page you _lying_little_weasel_ ?
Note that my link to the same site opened up to *something*,
_you_ didn't like and can say nothing about except to weasel and whine...
is your little brain "PAXILATED"?
The more up to date version of "pickled". (hmm.... more like fried and
shrunken to be accurate)
You annoy me with your drugged up, *drug*pushing* deceit!
Back for you later."Paxilate" yourself in the interim.
Andrew Chmilewsky
(that was good, wasn't it? :)
I just have this "thing" about manipulative, lying, drug *pushers*.
=================================
djmmm <darbyN...@stopstabbingme.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:3fc5848e...@usw-ex0107-049.remarq.com...
> > Not a good idea. Besides there are other alternatives.
flight ofthe phoenix
> Eric nor anyone else represents the newsgroup. He is solely responsible
for his
> statements. Your responses may only have been directed at him, ...but they
> reveal your attitude.
Good!
I dislike people who push drugs claiming they are harmless and
lying/distorting facts in a supposedly sly manner.
Effectively, that is the same as promoting them. Is it not?
> It's the same attitude that people on meds have to put up
> with all the time.
I disagree with you Mr. Hopkins.
See what I penned above.
Also note, the hardcore element here that are "proud of being SSRI/SSNRI
users", (it's that Socialist fellow I am quoting :)....who will
also -promote- these drugs... and an you know Mr. Hopkins, that Socialist
fellow WILL -promote- this class of drugs in his work as a social worker.
Very high probability... again... it's the "us" vs. "them", and "let's get
others to do as I/we do" thing... in the case of a particular class of drugs
such as SSRIs/SSNRIs I note a peculiar and urgent need to do so.
Not so with users of other classes of medications...in fact, the only other
group of drug users that I can think of that do this "recruitment", are the
users of street drugs... and I don't mean "pot".
I can speak with you Mr. Hopkins, as you are a thinking man after all. Some
of the others here, "the beasts" :) are rather difficult, and I respond to
their decipts and lies with a bludgeon, and AFTER they first employ racial
insult/lies/deceipt, evasion etc.
Hmm... suppose I should be used to it. :)
Andrew Chmilewsky
flight ofthe phoenix
flight ofthe phoenix <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8k3coc$n75$1...@slb7.atl.mindspring.net...(text of both posters deleted)
> >
> > A lot of the information you cite has been around a long time, ...and
has
> > already been discussed to death. Most people are aware of the books that
> warn
> > about the controversial aspects of ADs these days. Magazines, TV shows,
> and
> > Talk radio like to use it as a hot button topic.
You may know this, and are objective about it.
Others are not. You know this from what you have seen
posted here.
> > This newsgroup gets a
> steady
> > stream of people that come in thinking that they have ground-shaking
news
> > because they just read a book about it.
> >
> > I'll agree with some points. No one knows for sure what long-term use of
> these
Then the logic is to hold off mass marketing such until they are proven to
be safe rather then run an epidemelogical experiment. Correct?
Recall thlimodide (sp?) given to pregnant women.
> > drugs will do (the same can be said for most "new" drugs). These drugs
are
> > toxic, (so are most medicines ..even over the counter ones).
The question is that of degree, duration, etc.
Also, how truthful was the research?
In the case of SSRIs/SSNRIs it was not.
Therefore, you have deceipt and fraud along with
bad science.
> One can
> become
> > dependent on them, ( as can anyone who uses a medicine to control a
> chronic
> > illness),
Depends on what medication you are speaking of and other factors as per my
above.
> Drugs are over prescribed,
Yes! I've heard of a *pregnant* woman proscribed an SSRI
because (!!!) she felt unhappy and somewhat depressed while
being pregnant!
> doctors and therapist take the easy
> way
> > out too often and put people on ADs who don't need them.
It's _cheap_, it's _quick_ it's _profitable_ , you don't have to do too
much... or know that much... and the insurance companys and the government
won't pay for real therapy.
> > Patients are
> > susceptible to advertising that sells them drugs to "enhance" their
lives
> > rather than to fight clinical depression.
Very, very true... the "quick fix"... in a pill... which it is not,
and is in actuality, very, very expensive... but such real *costs* (damages)
are not accounted for, are they?
> >More money should be spent on
> curing
> > illness rather than developing drugs to control the symptoms.
That is far more expensive then anyone is willing to pay for.
There are alternatives to SSRIs/SSNRIs, but..... the apparant
costs are cheaper then the real costs. So no one sees or cares about the
REAL costs and the hell people and their families are put through.
A.C.
flight ofthe phoenix
(interesting psusedonym).
Your chief points are to defend your fellow addicted SSRI & SSNRI using
poster "LostBoyinNC"
by saying: "> Ah leave him alone.... love is all you need not crappy books"
and in an incoherent fashion and to make erroneous statements chief of which
is:
"> READ THIS CAREFULLY : THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE PROZAC WOULD
> CAUSE ANY BRAIN DAMAGE. Even if it does is not important."
I see no *valid* data, nor any references given.
You ignore his outrageous statements, and only contribute a few of your own,
_wrong_ and "off the wall" statements.
Have another Prozac, "ProzacNation". I see it does wonders for your
"thinking".
Andrew Chmilewsky
===================
ProzacNation <123@12.1> wrote in message
news:01bfd84d$ee4bf520$bec0fac3@default...
>
>
> > These drugs, (SSRIs and SSNRIs) release as much serotonin in the brain
as
> > does PCP and LSD. Not a good thing...
> You a researcher? LOL the only drug that REALISE serotonin is MDMA.
> FULLPOINT
> LSD works differently. But you can take SSRI in the category of light
> psyhedelic
> drugs if you really want.
> > Continue swallowing your drugs and have them permanently alter more of
> your
> > neural tissues, which will enable you to write more of what you already
> > have.
> >
> > You may call Dr. Glenmullen a "faggot" and me a "scientologist" and Dr.
> > Tracy and many others whatever you like, but your insults and deceit
> changes
> > nothing.
> >
> > SSRIs and SSNRIs really do not have a valid basis
> > and cause damage.
> Yes. They probably cause "damage". Damage that is nothing to compare to
> benefit.
> READ THIS CAREFULLY : THERE IS NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE PROZAC WOULD
> CAUSE ANY BRAIN DAMAGE. Even if it does is not important.
>
> > Hope you get better in time and eventually are able to handle reality
and
> > get off your "medications",
> Prozac is not mainly medice for lost connection with reality...lithium
> maybe
> >without further brain damage. Have you noticed
> > that your sense of balance is off
> > since taking these "medications"?
> my experience and from many others:
> I was on Prozac only 3 months for a mild depression. I didn't notice
> anything
> when i stopped using it.
> Doesn't such a fundamental
> > altering of your brain tell you something?
> >
> > Btw, you do not have to answer this of course, but what are you "on"
> _now_
> > in terms of dosage levels and for how long have you been on SSRIs and
> SSNRIs
> > and Synthroid, etc.
> Ah leave him alone.... love is all you need not crappy books
> > I am curious. Nothing to be ashamed of, is there?
> NO, but I would be ashamed if I were a Dr. to say some crap
> >
> > ============== to continue:
> > LostBoyinNC <speedstren...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:2bd68b74...@usw-ex0102-013.remarq.com...
> > > "flight ofthe phoenix" <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > >I am _not_ a Scientologist.
> > > >I have nothing in common with them, and do not like their
> > > approach or
> > > >methodology, and lack of scientiffic knowledge or their bias
> > > against
> > > >science.
> > >
> > > Bullshit
> > >
> > > >
> > > >http://www.drugawareness.org/ is _not_ a "scientology website"
> > > as you claim.
> > >
> > > Bullshit
> > >
> > >
> > > >You are making it up or lying, and you do _not_ know what you
> > > are talking
> > > >about. You are merely shooting off your mouth.
> > >
> > > Bullshit
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Nor are _any_ of the *scientiffic studies* cited there, along
> > > with the
> > > >links, and the science refered to there, have anything in
> > > common with the
> > > >Scientologists.
> > >
> > > Bullshit
> > >
> >
> > Is this all you can say?
> > Have you explored and reviewed the site?
> > Or are you just talking?
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >The Scientologists do _not_ perform any scientiffic studies
> > > regarding SSRIs
> > > >or SSNRIs, nor is this site one of theirs.
> > > >They just shoot off their mouths as you do.
> > > >
> > > >You should really read about how the various "cocaine elixers"
> > > were touted
> > > >and promoted in the past. How the devastating effects of
> > > these "health
> > > >preparations" were excused, as afecting "only a few people",
> > > how there is
> > > >more "overall good", how many people were helped by taking
> > > these cocaine
> > > >elixers, etc.
> > > >
> > >
> > > I dont give a fuck about "cocaine elixirs." What the fuck does
> > > that have to do with treating my clinical depression?
> >
> > Since you forgot, I gave the example of the "cocaine elixers" of
> > the early 20th century to compare them to what is being said about SSRIs
> and
> > SSNRIs today ... the marketing, the excuses, the loyal "users"...
> Cocaine
> > in it's various forms was being touted for "well being", "health" and
> > "melancholia". As for what it has to do with your clinical depression?
> > I wasn't talking about _your_ clinical depression. It's not all about
> you,
> > believe it or not.
> >
> > Btw, self centerdness is also a result of SSRI usage. If you weren't
> > before... you become so with continuous usage. A drug effect.
> >
> > > SSRIs dont
> > > cause a sudden release of dopamine like cocaine does.
> >
> > Never said it did.
> > Different pathways are affected, and the overall results are still not
> very
> > good.
> >
> > > SSRIs are
> > > NOT addictive.
> >
> > Wrong.
> > The withdrawal effects alone speak volumes.
> > You do not have such effects, when you discontinue
> > taking say ... an antibiotic, now do you?
> > That's why you have the politically correct term called
> > SSRI Discontinuance Syndrome.
> > Interesting how for heroin such a polite term is not used when an addict
> is
> > in withdrwal, isn't it?
> >
> > > Comparing SSRIs with cocaine is ridiculous.
> >
> > Both work by affecting neurotransmitter levels.
> > Don't they?
> > Both produce withdrawal effects with prolonged usage,
> > don't they?
> >
> > > You
> > > are an idiot. Please go away and quit taking up space on > this NG.
> >
> > Not a "nice" way to ask something. Do you usually talk like this to
> people?
> > Did you talk like this to people before you began taking
> > SSRIs?
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >So now the manufacturers, and the people dependant on these
> > > newer forms of
> > > >drugs that affect neurotransmitters say pretty much the same
> > > thing, clocked
> > > >in _bad_ science, ignoring studies, and talking a lot about "a
> > > chemical
> > > >imbalance in the brain" and other nonsense, including
> > > fraudulent and poor
> > > >"studies" in order to market their drugs and get FDA approval.
> > > Along with a
> > > >spate of TV advertising :)
> > >
> > > You are a fucking idiot.
> >
> > Thank you. It's indeed a compliment coming from you.
> > Have a pill and please continue! :)
> >
> >
> > > You ever had really severe clinical
> > > depression?
> >
> > No.
> > Does _having_ a mental disorder qualify you as a research
pharmacologist
> > and an expert on such?
> >
> > Should only active or former alcoholics discuss alcoholism?
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >So what brands of these types of drugs (SSRIs and SSNRIs) have
> > > you used in
> > > >the past and are on now?
> > >
> > > All of them and I feel much better on them than off them.
> >
> > Then why so many if as you imply they are all so good for you? :)
> >
> > > They
> > > treat my severe depression. Duh.
> >
> > Yes... regarding your "Duh", there is a mind numbing effect with
SSRIs...
> >
> > Hmm.... so you are dependant on them.
> > People said/say the same thing about cocaine, LSD & PCP (also serotonin
> > reuptake inhibitors), the barbituates, ampetamines, the opioids... it
> goes
> > on. Nothing changes excepts the packing one might say. SSRIs have FDA
> > "approval" even though a few people went to jail for that one...
> > Then again, many drugs had FDA approval that were later pulled off the
> > market.
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >Why do you get so excited about it?
> > >
> > > Because I hate you people...think you scientologists all ought
> > > to be in prison.
> >
> > See above (again!) my position regarding Scientology.
> > Focus your mind! Drug effects do that to you...
> >
> > > Especially the leadership element of it. In
> > > fact, I have a friend in the FBI.
> >
> > Is he also a "user"?
> > What's his name?
> >
> > > I might report you to their
> > > alert HOTLINE and their counter terror team might come knock,
> > > knock, knocking on your door at 3:00 AM and drag your sorry
> > > scientologist ass out of your house by force against your will
> > > and throw you in jail for being a fraud. You deserve to be tried
> > > and convicted in a court of law for lying and deceit. If I was
> > > in charge, that is exactly what would be happening to
> > > scientologists. I wouldnt give a fuck about your Constitutional
> > > rights, Id just like to see you suffer in a jail cell. You are
> > > lucky I aint in charge.
> >
> > You appear to have a hard time in functioning in the real world,
> > is this true?
> >
> > > I hate pyramid schemes and hate cults.
> >
> > I dislike them as well... :)
> > SSRIs and SSNRIs are the biggest "pyramid scheme" and cult we have ever
> > seen on this planet.
> >
> > Another question would be, in view of your threats above:
> >
> > How do you feel about drug use and addicts?
> > You are not at all concerned with them I see... are you?
> >
> > Or for that matter, the researchers and scientists, and
> > "straights" such as myself, that oppose drug use and bad drugs?
> > Should we be put in prison as well?
> >
> > Then you and others like you would "run the asylym"
> > and force us to take what you do?
> > Ram some Paxil and Prozac down our throats...
> > Would that make you feel better about yourself then?
> >
> > > >
> > > >Is that all you can say?
> > > >Read your history.
> > >
> > > Why dont you get educated on the dangers of untreated mental
> > > illness?
> >
> > I am.
> > This is why I oppose SSRIs and SSNRIs.
> > They are bogus.
> >
> > > And leave helpless mentally ill people alone.
> >
> > You just threatened me as you recall.
> > You effectively just said above, that "straights", who do not agree with
> the
> > basis of your drug habits, be it myself, or others, should have force
> > applied against us.
> >
> > The "users" (us) versus the "non-users" (them)...
> > interesting way some of you "users" look at things indeed.
> > You are indeed very loyal and vehement about your drugs.
> > Facinating!
> >
> > I am trying to help the mentally ill.... just not with invalid drugs.
> After
> > all, opium _also_ helps people with depression,
> > in fact, with more validity and far better and faster results then
either
> > the SSRIs or SSNRIs, should the opioids therefore, be
> > mass marketed? And used by people for years and years?
> > To "treat" depression?
> > Would that be valid?
> > After all, SSRIs were originally meant for short term use... couple of
> > months... not years and years... did you know that?
> >
> > >
> > > >For that matter, read what Freud wrote in his cocaine letters.
> > > >The cacaine elixers for "health and well being" and
> > > for "melancholy" were
> > > >the first mass marketed drugs affecting
> > > >neurotransmitters of their day. You would have been one of the
> > > first in line
> > > >to take them, and swear loyalty to them and those that peddled
> > > them,
> > > >wouldn't you?
> > >
> > > You are a brainwashed dweeb and you have no mind of your own.
> > > You are extremely weakminded and have no backbone.
> > > Basically...you are a pussy.
> >
> > Just because I am not dependent on drugs like you?
> > An odd basis for your logic, isn't it?
> >
> > >
> > > Get lost scientology asshole...
> >
> > No.
> > You prove that I am needed here.
> > Look at what you have written in your posts.
> > It is amazing!
> >
> > You "users" have not taken over yet. :)
> > Though there are more and more of you... you are also
> > "dosing" more and more school children with these "medications". After
> > all... if you take them, shouldn't they
> > and everyone else?
> >
> > This reminds me very much of _Brave New World_ and
> > the "soma" drug. People in that book by Huxley, just couldn't cope
> without
> > their "soma".
> >
> > Luck!
> >
> > Andrew Lubomyr Chmilewsky
> >
> > >
> > > Eric
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My psychiatrist told me I was a charm school dropout.
> > >
LandscapeGuy00
Do you honestly want to make people aware of these drugs and to be careful?
Or are you just trying to promote something?
If not, then mind your own god damn business and keave us the fuck alone
asshole!!!!
Some people NEED drugs!!!!
Every and any drug has it's risks
Stop trying to scare people about anti depressants and other drugs you
fucker!!!
Keep it up and your putting yourself at risk.
GOT IT?
flight ofthe phoenix
news:20000707001251...@ng-df1.aol.com...
> Why the fuck are you really here?
Gave the answer to that a couple of times. Remember?
> Do you honestly want to make people aware of these drugs and to be
careful?
That too.
> Or are you just trying to promote something?
To deter SSRI/SSNRI "medications" for they are harmful to one's mental
health, destructive to person and family, and in many cases, ineffective and
were bogus and *fraudulently* approved and mass marketed. See some of the
links I posted regarding how the pharmaceutical companys decieved the FDA,
physicians, and the public. It's there. Remember?
> If not, then mind your own god damn business and keave us the fuck alone
> asshole!!!!
Why don't you mind _your_ own business and leave _me_ alone? :)
Btw, please do not tell me what to do, OK?
If I want advice from someone like you, I'll visit an insane asylum, OK?
Don't like the fact that "your" drugs (SSRIs/SSNRIs) are effectively
speaking, useless and dangerous, and that some people not yet addicted to
them might shy away?
> Some people NEED drugs!!!!
Only addicts and the ignorant take useless, *bogus* "designer" drugs that
don't do what they are ;) _cracked up_ t o do ;) Right?
> Every and any drug has it's risks
Not "every"... some are extremely low risk and *very*, *very* rarely produce
dangerous side effects, (certain antibiotics for instance, aspirin, etc.)
and some are relatively ineffective AND high risk, right?
Like the SSRIs/SSNRIs you are taking, right?
It's a risk/benefit raito. Some are, like the SSRIs/SSNRIs high risk and low
benefit and cause brain damage, induce *violent* behaviour, etc. If they
were so great (among many other issues) why do people constantly switch
between one kind of SSRI to another, to another to another in an expensive,
damaging "shell game", etc..?
They are _all_ chemical cousins, aren't they?
Or is there something wrong with the fundamental premise of SSRIs?
What do you think?
Very different then from say, the family of
semi-synthetic pennicillin group. Isn't it?
> Stop trying to scare people about anti depressants and other drugs you
> fucker!!!
How is distributing information and data from objective studies harmful?
Why are you so *threatened* by that and are so *violent* about it?
Are you afraid that there will be fewer people addicted to "your" kind of
drugs?
That the "straights" will wake up and see what is happening before you
"Prozakians" can "assimilate" the "norms" and make them into spaced out
Martians like you?
> Keep it up and your putting yourself at risk.
> GOT IT?
Why are you so violent?
Are you hooked "on" something that may be making you so violent, agitated
and aggressive from reading rather dry scientiffic studies?
Normal people don't react like that, do they?
Or would you know?
What types ("flavors") of SSRIs/SSNRIs are you addicted to?
Btw, regarding the above, my violent "Prozakian" friend... lets review your
above, OK?
"> ..you fucker!!!
> Keep it up and your putting yourself at risk.
> GOT IT?"
First off, you violent, spaced out SSRIs/SSNRIs pill popping, "Prozakian"
brain dead Martian from another planet, your name is: "LandscapeGuy00
<landsca...@aol.com> "
After all that you said above in threatening me... for
- evidently - revealing GREAT SECRETS about the "PROZAKIANS" among us,
(done by giving links to studies, and the corporate secrets of your
pharmaceutical company supplie, "Prozakian" droid makers...
WHAT IS YOU NAME?
Well... you just threatened me, didn't you?
Want to give, besides your mouthy threats, your name and address here,
little Prozakian?
You got the heart and character, (guts) besides your
"courage" and mouth by *d r u g* use?
I think you're a loud mouth, little spaced out SSRI/SSNRI drug wimp? Aren't
you? :)
POST YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS RIGHT HERE SPACE CADET!
Whazza matter you Prozakian? No "cajones"?
You opened your brain dead, SSRI/SSNRI Martian/"Prozakian" mouth and
threatened me, so...
POST YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS RIGHT HERE SPACE CADET!
Doesn't seem that the SSRIs/SSNRIs you would *hurt* people for helped you
much does it?
Who are you going to "go off on" next you disgusting little SSRI/SSNRI drug
dependent turd?
You going to pop a few more pills and later on go on a drug rampage little
man?
Kill some of the "norms"?
Fortified with your SSRIs/SSNRIs drug induced "courage" and insanity?
POST YOUR NAME AND ADDRESS RIGHT HERE SPACE CADET!
Sincerely,
Andrew Lubomyr Evhenovich Chmilewsky
259 Ave. E
Bayonne, NJ 07002
Sean
hollow, isn't it?
I mean, it's easy (and sometimes even fun) to tangle with LostLandscapeBoys,
but so far you're sounding as irrelevant and incoherent as they do.
So then ... what's your alternative treatment for people who suffer from
major depression?
- Sean
flight ofthe phoenix
you forget that already? (SSRIs/SSNRIs effect short and long term memory,
create false memory).
Go pop a few pills and put up some bogus (like your SSRI & SSNRI) links as
"proof" till I return... and be very "busy" in shielding your drug brain in
accepting hard data OK? :)
One Martian/Prozakian at a time, I was more interested in answered Mr.
Hopkins - for he, unlike you, is *ethical* and *sincere* from what I see in
his postings.
Next came your other Prozakian drug buddy,
"LandscapeGuy00 <landsca...@aol.com>"
who *threatened* me, which obviously does not phase you at all... my how you
Prozakians stick together, don't you?
A rather vicious and violent group... is it your "medications"?
Seems _some_ of you, become rather agitated and violent on that stuff....
(known SSRIs/SSNRIs effect) doesn't it?
Andrew Chmilewsky
=======================
Sean <Resignati...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:B58AD515.6D9D%Resignati...@hotmail.com...
> Andrew, if you don't have an alternative, then your sermonizing is pretty
> hollow, isn't it?
No.
Nor am I "sermonizing", merely giving data from people who are reseachers,
not "sermonizers". Right?
Read it, Eat it, or like you do, ignore it "cleverly", and BS around it.
That's your problem with reality, not mine.
Right?
>
> I mean, it's easy (and sometimes even fun) to tangle with
LostLandscapeBoys,
You are just as "easy".
You are not rational.
> but so far you're sounding as irrelevant and incoherent as they do.
I do not think so... It's *you* and creatures like *him* that have problems
with reality and logic. Did it escape your rather fuzzed up drug brain that
I was physically *threatened* by one of your fellow Prozakians?
Of course that was not "relevant", and not even noticed by you, correct or
not?
See how screwed up you are?
Yet you *responded* to this particular subthread, and did not even blink an
eye.
(SSRIs/SSNRIs effect: depersonilization i.e. dehumanization)
What is wrong with you?
Why are you so dehumanised?
What are you "on"?
As stated, "later", and in the *appropriate* thread header.
Can you restrain your self till then?
(Poor impluse control: SSRIs/SSNRIs side effect)
>
> So then ... what's your alternative treatment for people who suffer from
> major depression?
See above. Right now, I'm involved with some "norm" stuff, which you would
not understand. Your *deceptiveness* (SSRI side effect) will be addressed.
Andrew Chmilewsky
>
> - Sean
>
djmmm
W
hy are you so abusive? Is it because you are WRONG? Did I hit a nerve?
The link I posted is NOT to a blank page...I'm sorry, I mistakenly
thought that you could do a SIMPLE search, by typing in some key words.
TRY it...how about "SSRI" Peruse through the 642 clinical studies, and
then rethink your OBVIOUSLY misinformed "body of knowledge"
In article <8k3amn$tcu$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>, "flight ofthe
phoenix" <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I haven't time right now, I'll be back later.
> .... and address _you_ completely. Believe it!
> > In article <8k23ut$s6m$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "flight ofthe
djmmm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9832348&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9546002&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9466088&dopt=Abstract
flight ofthe phoenix
> First, let me just say that the ICFDA is a sham, not a scientific
> organization.
Wrong again :)
Read the "Mission Statement", it is an *educational* group.
http://www.drugawareness.org/mission.html
Do you know how to understand what you read?
(Pop another pill, lying pill head! :)
"Dr." Tracy has no medical training or rigorous academic
> background.
Wrong again :)
http://members.aol.com/atracyphd/
*Read* about Ann Blake Tracy, Ph.D's academic background, in the
*biological* sciences AND about her recognized expertise in SSRIs,
testifying before Congress, etc.. then open your illiterate mouth.
(Spit that Prosac out of your mouth Prosakian! :)
> She and the ICFDA publicize dubious *anecdotal* accounts.
Which ones are the "dubious *anecdotal* accounts" and how do you know so?
Are you familiar with any of them? How many? What are their names? How do
you know them?
Been exchanging pills with them? Or are you just making it up as you go
along?
(Is your brain "Paxilated", i.e. as per a previous link in an earlier post
of mine, shrunken {"fried"} and growing small, smaller, smallest...:)
> She
> has not engaged in any kind of controlled experimentation,
Below quoted from: http://members.aol.com/atracyphd/comments.htm
======== begin:
PROZAC: PANACEA OR PANDORA? is the product of five years of intensive
research, and the cases of approximately 1000 patients on a long-term basis.
The author, Ann Blake Tracy holds a Doctorate in Biological Psychology, is
the director of the International Coalition for Drug Awareness,(1) has
testified before the FDA and congressional subcommittee members on Prozac.
She has testified since 1992 as anexpert witness in Prozac and other SSRI
related court cases around the world.Her first book on the issue was
published in 1991. During the last five years she has participated in
innumerable radio, television, newspaper and magazine interviews. We know of
no one with such extensive experience and expertise on all of these issues
surrounding the SSRI antidepressants as Ann Blake Tracy.
(1.) Ann Tracy previously headed the Coalition for a Drug Free Utah, the
only support group in the state of Utah
for those who have suffered adverse reactions to the SSRIs. The Coalition
for a Drug Free Utah was disbanded
when its mission was supplanted by the International Coalition for Drug
Awareness.
============== end quote
> nor has she
> published reproducible results.
See my previous postings of links to the most _*current*_ studies, etc.
Ann Blake Tracy, Ph.D. was _ahead_ of her time. Many are just beginning to
catch up about SSRIs. Ann Blake Tracy, Ph.D. is indeed advanced. She is
updating her book I believe, and incorporating the newest studies.
(Bathe your atrophied brain in some more serotonergic drugs, you Prozakian
Martian BS'er ;)
Hmm... that reminds me, you and the LSD using anti-Semite from NC like
serotonin and SSRI/SSNRI drugs a lot right? So this is esp. for the both of
you from me:
SEROTONIN - THE KEY TO THE PSYCHADELIC EXPERIENCE:
http://members.aol.com/atracyphd/serotoni.htm
>
> Hearsay and anecdote does not equal science.
Quite right! -Besides- anecdotal reports, you have *hard* documentation in
her book. Check out, btw:
http://members.aol.com/atracyphd/problems.htm
< care for a serotonin "dip" in outer space Prozakian? ;>
< remember your spaceman's hat with the ears ^W^
from a Ronald MacDonald's burger joint :>
You also have - because you _know_ you forget alot with
the short and long term memory loss, because of the drugs you do, the latest
findings that are, as you put it "> published reproducible results."
You a product of the 60's or something man?... dropping acid man? Here's
your page 'bout LSD and the newer stuff you usin' man:
http://members.aol.com/atracyphd/upsidedo.htm
(Space cadet! You and your Jew hating redneck buddy,
"Lost BoyinNC", outta check this out man ;)
Also check out some of the related links from ICFDA to other sites such
as:The Antidepressant Web
http://www.socialaudit.org.uk/
But then again, you ain't awake man... walking around like
in a drug trance or be sleep walkin' man, ain't you?:
http://members.aol.com/atracyphd/studies.htm
and sign up for a free newsletter... see it before I possibly post in your
drug droopy face at:
http://www.egroups.com/messages/drugawareness
go to: "Click here to register for FREE!" at:
http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/drugawareness?referer=1
You get the latest stuff e-mailed to your box.
Or if you're lazier, go to the bottom of
http://www.drugawareness.org/index.html
and sign up more directly at the hated anti SSRI "verboten" site ;)
Ah knowed it, ah knowed it.... it be all a Tracy konspirasee
against you drug boyz... dat white woman! Nevah trust a whi' woman... she
could be a &$#%@ JEW!
Heah be 'nother won fo' you fum som'wha' else:
Fum JEW! Linked to a site fum JEW! Dr. Ivan's Depression Central! He at be
linked to JEW!
http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.discontinuation.html
(he meh be a Russian JEW! Like yo' redneck buddy be
callin' me..Fum man called Dr. Ivan. JEW! Fum Russia!)
>
> flight ofthe phoenix wrote:
>
> > Not a good idea. Besides there are other alternatives.
>
> Such as?
Not my job to tell you, is it?
Up to you for that one.
Why should I tell you? You giving me money for that?
*I* know and you don't.Your "habit", not mine.
There are many places to begin to look, after you read the links above,
{which you won't, because you *like* it this way don't you? :}
A good theoretical base may be to start at (warning: Long article!) is:
Exposing the Myth Makers:
http://familytherapynetwork.com/feat2.html
many treatment modalities are discussed and compared, including various drug
therapys, etc..
To each his own.
{I think you should stay on drugs though because I don't like you. You're an
@ss! }
Anyway:
The cheapie route is to go (once again :) to the bottom of:
http://www.drugawareness.org/
and hit the click for: "To order Dr. Tracy's audiocassette tape, "Help, I
Can't Get Off My Antidepressant," which
suggests safe ways to withdraw and alternative treatments, click here."
Different strokes...
Now go pop another pill. You take too much of my time, and I don't get money
for it. True what they say in Ukraine... "no good deed goes unpunished." Or
was that in Amerika? Must be smelling your Prozac through my modem...
Andrew Lubomyr Evhenovich Chmilewsky
>
> - Sean
>
LostBoyinNC
>Andrew Lubomyr Evhenovich Chmilewsky
>259 Ave. E
>Bayonne, NJ 07002
>
Oh shit...hehehe...
Eric
Ive got a krieger on my digger, knock him off,
Ive got a krieger on my digger, knock him off,
Ive got a krieger on my digger and he's trying to make it bigger,
Got a krieger on my digger, knock him off
Garland Hopkins
> LandscapeGuy00 <landsca...@aol.com> wrote
> > Why the fuck are you really here?
>
> Gave the answer to that a couple of times. Remember?
Nothing but propaganda!
> > Do you honestly want to make people aware of these drugs and to be
> careful?
>
> That too.
LIES! Your real purpose is to subjugate the mentally ill as slave labor and
food for the Norms.
> > Or are you just trying to promote something?
>
> To deter SSRI/SSNRI "medications" for they are harmful to one's mental
> health, destructive to person and family, and in many cases, ineffective and
> were bogus and *fraudulently* approved and mass marketed. See some of the
> links I posted regarding how the pharmaceutical companys decieved the FDA,
> physicians, and the public. It's there. Remember?
More lies! You zany-sanie, your hear to confuse, divide and conquer, and lead
the Norms into a victory resulting in the domination of non-straights.
> > If not, then mind your own god damn business and keave us the fuck alone
> > asshole!!!!
>
> Why don't you mind _your_ own business and leave _me_ alone? :)
> Btw, please do not tell me what to do, OK?
> If I want advice from someone like you, I'll visit an insane asylum, OK?
Aha! You want us all in asylums. You Jerry Falwell/Newt Gingrich clone in with
Hitlers brain.
> Don't like the fact that "your" drugs (SSRIs/SSNRIs) are effectively
> speaking, useless and dangerous, and that some people not yet addicted to
> them might shy away?
>
> > Some people NEED drugs!!!!
>
> Only addicts and the ignorant take useless, *bogus* "designer" drugs that
> don't do what they are ;) _cracked up_ t o do ;) Right?
Only sadist call sick people ignorant for taking their prescribed medications.
Your plan for world domination by enslaving and eliminating the genetically
imperfect is flawed. I don't care how many aliens help you.
> > Every and any drug has it's risks
>
> Not "every"... some are extremely low risk and *very*, *very* rarely produce
> dangerous side effects, (certain antibiotics for instance, aspirin, etc.)
> and some are relatively ineffective AND high risk, right?
You can commit suicide with aspirin at the right dose, you are leading people
into a false sense of security!
> Like the SSRIs/SSNRIs you are taking, right?
>
> It's a risk/benefit raito. Some are, like the SSRIs/SSNRIs high risk and low
> benefit and cause brain damage, induce *violent* behaviour, etc. If they
> were so great (among many other issues) why do people constantly switch
> between one kind of SSRI to another, to another to another in an expensive,
> damaging "shell game", etc..?
> They are _all_ chemical cousins, aren't they?
> Or is there something wrong with the fundamental premise of SSRIs?
You anti-chemite scum. Chemistry is good, all chemicals are related by
electrons.
>
>
> What do you think?
>
> Very different then from say, the family of
> semi-synthetic pennicillin group. Isn't it?
Mis-information!!! Penicillin came from chemistry too!!! You mental-baiting
sadist normie.
I have to go walk my dogs on the beach, my wife is nagging me to go ...I will
continue this bit of fun later.
flight ofthe phoenix
> BOGUS?
That's right!
Weren't they?
Quote me *fully* you incompetent, sneaking zombie!
Stop playing your Prozac games this way, got it?
I am not at all fooled by you, you "sly" drug weasel!
Was *this* what you posted the last *2* times?
Or are you lying again dead head?
So who is lying? You or me?
Is this what you posted the last *2* times or not?
(to empty pages no less! :)
You had your chance, *twice* you wasted my time.
Pop a pill zombie!
As for what you _now_ post, and after you *censored*
the rest of my/your past *2* posts ... I fail to be impressed.
(now how could that be? :)
To continue, yes I read it *all*...
(except for your first link which drew a blank btw)
very simple stuff.. (maybe not for you though:)
Did you understand what you were reading?
The comparisons? What each study said and in relationship
of what to what and for whom to whom in relationship to again what? Did you
understand?
You didn't get quite get it, did you?
(your lack of a scientiffic education is showing :)
I am indeed not startled by the simple little *abstracts* you selected
(which is the best you could do) and in what I've read that (at last)
you presented for my delectation.
(damn but you are most "unswift!" ... must be the pills...
I've already rammed far superior and _definitive_
-real- studies and articles by -real- resarchers and writers and
superior -real- links, with far more data then you have been able to thus
far. Right? ;)
Did you read them?
Completely?
Did you understand and compare it with the thrash you brought me to sniff
daintily at? :)
See?
When your brain goes on a snooze you lose. :>
A.C.
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
ds=10505481&dopt=Abstract
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
ds=10408420&dopt=Abstract
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
ds=10084636&dopt=Abstract
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
ds=9832348&dopt=Abstract
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
ds=9546002&dopt=Abstract
>
>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_ui
djmmm
ridiculous...even hysterically inaccurate.
"Inability to detect dreams from reality"...please lol
"Unusual energy surges at times producing super human strength"...I
wish.
"Deceitfulness; Blank staring; Inability to see any alternatives in
situations" what?
"Loss of spirituality; Feeling "possessed" or that something evil is
inside" lol
These scare tactics remind me of the ridiculous anti-drug (LSD,
marijuana) videos of the 60's. Your problem, Andrew, is that you base
your opnion on information you get from patently bias and inaccurate
websites like these.
flight ofthe phoenix
However, you noticed he did not reply with his name and address yet.
Pity...
A.C.
============================== begin:
Garland Hopkins <garl...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3965EF1A...@home.com...
Sean
> One Martian/Prozakian at a time, I was more interested in answered Mr.
> Hopkins - for he, unlike you, is *ethical* and *sincere* from what I see in
> his postings.
Native speak English you no? Garland seems like a much nicer fellow than I
(maybe even DJMMM), and more tolerant of fools too, so you're wise to keep
your interest in his direction.
> Next came your other Prozakian drug buddy,
> "LandscapeGuy00 <landsca...@aol.com>"
> who *threatened* me, which obviously does not phase you at all... my how you
> Prozakians stick together, don't you?
I can't speak for the Landscape+LostBoy brain trust. They do appear to be
worthy opponents for you, however.
> A rather vicious and violent group... is it your "medications"?
> Seems _some_ of you, become rather agitated and violent on that stuff....
> (known SSRIs/SSNRIs effect) doesn't it?
Well, for some people, medication seems to bring out the worst in them.
You know, like the way dietary fiber brings out the *best* in you.
>> Andrew, if you don't have an alternative, then your sermonizing is pretty
>> hollow, isn't it?
>
> No.
> Nor am I "sermonizing", merely giving data from people who are reseachers,
> not "sermonizers". Right?
> Read it, Eat it, or like you do, ignore it "cleverly", and BS around it.
I guess I'm glad you think I'm clever about it. There's nothing clever
about your ignorance and BS, however. You've very openly and oafishly
ignored the question. Again: What is your alternative treatment for people
who suffer major depression?
> That's your problem with reality, not mine.
> Right?
Is that supposed to be clever?
> You are just as "easy".
> You are not rational.
I get the feeling you wouldn't know "rational" if you were anally probed
by it (and maybe you were, hence your distrust of it).
>> but so far you're sounding as irrelevant and incoherent as they do.
>
> I do not think so...
Well of course *you* don't think so! That doesn't mean your "arguments"
are relevant and coherent. In fact, they are not. And you've proved that
with the post I'm responding to now. Care to try again, but this time
coherently? Or would you rather just be toyed with? I'll indulge you either
way. Your choice. If you want to show me that your viewpoint is relevant,
you need to start by answering the question, What is your proposed
alternative treatment for major depression, anxiety, &c?
> It's *you* and creatures like *him* that have problems
> with reality and logic. Did it escape your rather fuzzed up drug brain that
> I was physically *threatened* by one of your fellow Prozakians?
If you sleep with dogs...
> Of course that was not "relevant", and not even noticed by you, correct or
> not?
There's no dearth of irrelevant gibberish here. Am I to monitor all of it?
> See how screwed up you are?
Well that's a matter for a different discussion.
> Yet you *responded* to this particular subthread, and did not even blink an
> eye.
I'm not here to defend you from other posters. Haven't you noticed by
email account name? Resignation Superman? I've hung up my cape.
> (SSRIs/SSNRIs effect: depersonilization i.e. dehumanization)
(Andrew/Lostguy/LandscapeBoy effect: idiocy, i.e., gibberish)
>> So then ... what's your alternative treatment for people who suffer from
>> major depression?
>
> See above.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you get a coherent or relevant idea, be sure to let
me know, 'k? Oh, and if you find yourself being threatened by anonymous
Usenet goons here (and elsewhere), just click your Delete key three times
and say "There's no place like home" (SSRI side effect: silly movie
references) and I'll see if I have the energy to rescue you
> Right now, I'm involved with some "norm" stuff,
Er, quite.
- Sean
flight ofthe phoenix
> Respond within the body of the message?? Why?
To do otherwise is tantamount to censorship.
> Why are you so abusive? Is it because you are WRONG?
No. Because you are abusive and a fool.
> Did I hit a nerve?
Most assuredly not! You are too fuzzed up to think straight and even have a
clue as to where to find your own nerves.
> The link I posted is NOT to a blank page...I'm sorry, I mistakenly
> thought that you could do a SIMPLE search, by typing in some key words.
> TRY it...how about "SSRI"
How about saying that?
(I see your brain is far to fried to grasp how inappropriate that would be,
isn't it? SSRIs make one very self centered)
Rather then *spitting* out an empty link at me?
I can do more than a simple search my drug eating friend.
Try thinking more clearly! People might understand you then.
Do you believe you can communicate magically by telepathy? :)
Get a grip!
What you stupidly did was to, effectively speaking, point at the Library of
Congress and say nothing. That tells me nothing!
THIS is what you posted TWICE:
" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/ "
Where does it go when you click on it?
Wake up!
Put down your pills when you talk with people!
> Peruse through the 642 clinical studies, and
> then rethink your OBVIOUSLY misinformed "body of knowledge"
I shall not "peruse" through 642 studies because you a "Prozakian" tell me
to, any more then I would "peruse" through Karl Marx's Das Kapital, because
a communist says "there". Did you "peruse" through the 642 studies?
I think not. Had you done so, you wouldn't be where you are now chewing and
swallowing that s*** now would you?
One *presents* material.
After all, *you* are attempting to prove something, right?
The burden of proof is upon you. What I did, was to *present* my proof. Not
_point_ at a library *twice* and expect people to read my mind and do THIER
WORK FOR THEM because they are selfcentered drug @ssholes.
Right?
Btw, did you -read- what I *presented* and respond at all to it?
(large deletion of text - I already discussed your posting manners about
*appropriate* replys in *appropriate* threads, remember?)
> > djmmm <darbyN...@stopstabbingme.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:3fc5848e...@usw-ex0107-049.remarq.com...
> > > I am performing a disservice to the mentally ill? You are. You
> > neglect
> > > to mention anything about the countless number of people these
> > meds
> > > have helped.
Misleading! Besides being an implied lie.
I mentioned cocaine elixers and how they also (for a limited time) made
people feel marvelous indeed and how they "helped people" and people swore
by them as did the manufacturers... also I mentioned the opioids as being
very fast acting in terms of depression.
Hardly "remedies" are they?
Should have also mentioned amphetamines. That would also be *BOGUS*, and as
BOGUS as SSRIs and SSNRIs..
Yeah, cocaine elixers, etc.. did work for an ignorant population at the turn
of the century... So what?
Have a study archived somewhere where it is estimated that 50,000 people
died from SSRIs over *placebo* i.e. non treatment, because of the
SSRI-suicide link. Not a remedy, is it? No more then cocaine elixers were...
right?
You are just the modern day ignoramus.
> > >
> > > Paxil causes brain atrophy? please.
You saw the link below, did you read it?
You didn't respond to it, in the appropriate place... rather choosing to do
so above... because you are a decieving weasel-junkie...
Btw, is that your best answer to Paxil "frying"/shrinking one's brain?
Not a good enough answer, is it?
> > > SSRI WITHDRAW does not indicate addiction!
You are a fool.
> > ADDICTION must
> > include a
> > > compulsive need for the substance, and TOLERANCE.
Also ignorant as a pig in s***!
Learn what addiction means before you come at me with your ignorance. You
truly disgust me now.
As is said and done where I come from. when one meets someone like you, : "I
spit in your face! P'tfu !"
This is when you meet a true fool. Rather rude... but it is appropriate in
retrospect... Fools keep their mouths shut...
now when I hear what you dared just say to me... P'tfu! I spit! (just be
grateful it was not in your face! :)
> > >
> > > You say "In one study, SSRIs turned "straights" into violent,
> > mentally
> > > ill people." OK. What about the 500 other studies that prove the
> > > efficacy of these drugs??
Drug company funded "studies" were mentioned in one of my posted links.
You said nothing about it. Did you?
Did you read the link about drug company fraud in bringing these drugs for
FDA approval and to the market?
(And suckers like you EAT IT! :)
YUMMYYY! You get sick, nauseous, feel like s*** and with great
determination <no brains though> you stick to eating that s*** until you
develop tolerance to it, while your body is and mind is screaming at you
"your eating s***!" till your mind/body resigns itself, tolerence is
developed, and then you get a warm, fuzzy drug after glow... not too
bright... are you?
P'tfu! I spit in your stupid face!
(damn! I got carried away by your stupidity and my disgust! Hell... now I
have to wipe my monitor!
See what you make me do you dumb drugged up SSRI eater! Damn!
Any way did you read the drug company links?
> > >
> > > again: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/
Which lead nowhere... except to a library door.
Not impressive of you..
> > > not all studies are funded by drug co's.
> > >
True, and the ones I presented, that were *not*, you didn't like, (like the
one about Paxil) or didn't read.
Not impressed with you at all.
Try being "straighter", read and reply to the links below or just pop
another pill instead.
I'll be gone for a few days... which means you should be done reading the
below link by then... maybe someone will explain them to you. I know that
you are s l o w e d
down... Drug effects... Your coordination and sense of balance is poor as
well, have you noticed that? Another drug effect of SSRIs.. rarely mentioned
in the literature.... but I've seen you people.. and figured it out before
coming across a reference.
Have a nice day. Take care of yourself now...
Andrew Chmilewsky (P'tfu!)
> > >
> > > In article <8k23ut$s6m$1...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>, "flight ofthe
> > > phoenix" <phoenix.@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > > djmmm <da...@stopstabbingme.com> wrote in message
> > > > news:16e9f1fe...@usw-ex0107-049.remarq.com...
> > > > > You are perpetuating some very misleading information.
> > > > > try: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/PubMed/
> > > > > The saftey of these drugs is WELL documented.
> > > > By whom?
> > > > The pharmaceutical companys? :)
> > > > http://www.drkoop.com/news/stories/may/r/trials_money.html
> > > > and
> > > >
> > http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/128/nation/Prozac_revisited+.shtm
> > > > l
> > > > and
> > > > http://search.boston.com/globe.vts
(new note, the above link I "presented" (i.e. cast a pearl before that swine
in other words, is expired, and I don't have time to go to my archives)
> > > > By people who are loyal users and addicted to it?
> > > > http://www.fda.gov/medwatch/safety/2000/mar00.htm#effexo
> > > > and: (Paxil Causes Brain Atrophy)
> > > >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=Pu
> > > > bMed&list
> > > > _uids=10807485&dopt=Abstract
> > > > Care for some more citations rather then empty talk?
> > > > You are performing a diservice to the mentally ill and to all
> > > > others
> > > > ("straights") who may be having a hard time and contemplating
> > > > taking such
> > > > medications, by saying such things.
> > > > Also, the familes of those taking these bogus meds.
> > > > In one study, SSRIs turned "straights" into violent, mentally
> > ill
> > > > people. If
> > > > this is what these drugs can do to "straights" in one citation,
> > > > imagine what
> > > > it can do to someone having a hard enough time and is truly
> > ill.
> > > > Not a good idea. Besides there are other alternatives.
> > > > Regards,
> > > > Andrew Chmilewsky
(sig file transmissions deleted)
Garland Hopkins
Digital Art by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com
http://home1.gte.net/garland9/index.html
Figurative Stone and Clay Sculpture by Garland Hopkins at:
http://garland.galacticworlds.com/THECD/Sculpt1/sculpt1.html
Countdownt to 2000 by Garland Hopkins at:
http://members.home.net/garland6/december/countdown_1of3.html
******************************************************************