Virus induced depression
Bent Attorney Esq.
'Virus induced depression? Why not?'
This article hits home. How it all began...
I was in Guatemala during the Christmas season; 1974..1975. A place
called Livingstone at the mouth of the Rio Dulce. Across a span of
water was Punta Gorda, Belize.
One morning I woke up feeling horrible. It went on like this for a
few days. I'd never felt like this before. Very weak.
I crossed over to Belize and ended up in a shack in the jungle in a
place called Cattle Landing.
I became so ill I couldn't get out of bed. Even a month after illness
struck it was difficult to walk for more than 5 minutes. Anyway this
is where my depression began. I felt as though my soul had been
ripped out of me. I was like a walking shell. It was horrible. I
could take many more paragraphs in order to describe my agonizing
symptoms, but I'm sure you get the picture.
I was never the same after that. I ended up back home in Canada, and
went from doc to doc to find out what was wrong. Eventually due to
circumstances, I ened up in the psyche ward and then the psyche
hospital. No one believed that my 'depression' was caused by a
physical illness. One lunatic social worker said that I was using
physical illness as a 'defense mechanism.' etc. blah blah blah say
the psyche workers. Well now at least I have some circumstantial
evidence that depression can be caused by at least one virus. The
virus I had, I don't know what it was. I was out in the boonies and
no docs were around.
Nom dePlume
depression. If other types of brain damage can affect mood, why not damage
caused by viruses?
The results of amantadine treatment (in the article are interesting).
Amantadine has two effects: It is an antiviral agent, and a weak dopamine
agonist. The article implies that the anti-viral effects are helping to
alleviate depression, but the dopamine agonism could also be contributing.
--
Nom dePlume, Ph.D.
Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
Find my book, Medicines for Mental health, and free drug information, at
www.MentalMeds.org
=====
"Bent Attorney Esq." <x.smili...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:45d98aa5-96ec-4b8c...@e8g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
Clem
> I don't have any difficulty believing that viral infections could cause
> depression. If other types of brain damage can affect mood, why not damage
> caused by viruses?
>
> The results of amantadine treatment (in the article are interesting).
> Amantadine has two effects: It is an antiviral agent, and a weak dopamine
> agonist. The article implies that the anti-viral effects are helping to
> alleviate depression, but the dopamine agonism could also be contributing.
>
> --
> Nom dePlume, Ph.D.
> Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist.
>
> Find my book, Medicines for Mental health, and free drug information, atwww.MentalMeds.org
>
> =====
Nom, I know you are a smart guy. I haven't read your articles as I am
busy with work. Increased zinc concentration in the hippocampus is
the *only* mechanism known to remit depression by antidepressants,
according to the NIMH. It is also the most difficult mineral to
absorb due to our high cereal diets of breads and refined flours,
which impair zinc absorption. Caffeine also impairs it, as does the
Pill. Zinc intake and absorption are radically different situations.
There are no storage deposits for this mineral. Red meat and fish
contain the most biovailable forms. However, the problem is that we
eat red meat with fibers and cereal grains that interfere with its
absorption. Not so with the traditional Japanese diet, which is
highest in trytophan (from fish) and medium in zinc but high in zinc
absorption.
Zinc is a the natural dopamine producer and dopamine re-uptake
inhibitor. Zinc deficiency results in an impaired immune system,
leading to susceptibility to infections and viruses and poor recovery
from them. Zinc is an immune system stabilizer and booster. Without
zinc there is no dopamine production, no serotonin, no melatonin, no
BDNF, no neurogenesis, poor recovery from illnesses, and a weakened
or disordered immune system. This is all documented and researched.
The body has a choice with the small pool of bioavailable zinc in
today's western diets--use it all up to create immune system
"components," produce dopamine and serotonin, and participate in over
100 activities in the body. Chronic depletion results in systems not
working properly, including the production of BDNF. My belief is
this: Zinc depletion led to poor response to healing from the virus
(called "wound healing," IOW, body healing, also including
neurogenesis), and the depression was the result of continual zinc
depletion.
The connection is obvious. The dopamine agonist/anti-viral med is
proof that the NIMH is right. Zinc somehow seems to be the "bottom
line" problem with mood disorders and infections. There is also the
fact that zinc depletion, resulting in serotonin and dopamine
depletion, in turn resulting in endorphin depletion--result in
fibromyalgia, chronic fatigue and depression initiated by viral
infections.
Zinc is the most difficult mineral to be utilized by the body because
there are so many factors that interfere with its absorption.
Nom dePlume
news:1e910266-60ff-43ee...@31g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
> Zinc is the most difficult mineral to be utilized by the body because
> there are so many factors that interfere with its absorption.
Interesting points, Clem. Thank you for mentioning them. I am a major
consumer of beef (I like to make my own beef jerky, for example), and you've
given me a new reason to continue.
I'll have to take a look at zinc now.
Clem
> "Clem" <combes...@aol.com> wrote in message
I want to add a few things I now have some time for, being Friday.
The Japanese have low rates of depression (2% of population) compared
with North Americans and Europeans (15-20%). They mostly eat a lot of
seafood, which is packed with trytophan and tyrosine, the two
precursors for serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine. Researchers
have believed that omega 3 fatty acids are the reason that they have
such a low rate of mood disorders. Obviously, the brain is made up of
70% fat. Its preference is DHA, however. EPA is mostly for the heart.
However, fish oils also increase zinc absorption. So we have a
population, assuming a traditional diet, that loads up all the time on
trytophan, tyrosine, zinc, and omega 3's. Since they are not a coffee/
cola type people, they don't have the absorption problems that we
have. Living on this diet from childhood may be a reason why most
don't develop mood disorders later in life. They are a high-stress
people, working and going to school 6-7 times a week. Somehow, their
diet protects them by constantly pre-loading on trytophan and
tyrosine. Have you read up on epidemiology?
Now here's the problem with Western diets. Unlike the Japanese, who
consume less calcium, our population regularly consumes milk. However,
calcium interferes with zinc absorption. Vitamin A and omega 3's from
fish help its absorption as they work in tandem.
The Japanese hardly have a perfect diet, but they do have a diet that
protects them from developing mood disorders later in life.
From what I have read, daily calcium requirements is really just a
guess. Most Asian countries have better teeth, lower rates of mood
disorders, and a Magnesium/Calcium ration of 4:1. They also have low
rates of mood disorders as saturated fat intake is limited and zinc
absorption is maximized. .
Marie
brain, accomplished by
SSRIs, ECT, and increased zinc absorption relieves depression.
> > "Clem" <combes...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > > Zinc is the most difficult mineral to be utilized by the body because
> > > there are so many factors that interfere with its absorption.
Anxiety, stress, caffeine, and plain anxiety disorders all deplete
zinc.
This is why people with anxiety disorders have a "poorer prognosis"
when it comes to depression
remission. Any stress, physical or mental, depletes zinc in the
hippocampus. The reason why I'll
explain later
> I want to add a few things I now have some time for, being Friday.
> The Japanese have low rates of depression (2% of population) compared
> with North Americans and Europeans (15-20%). They mostly eat a lot of
> seafood, which is packed with trytophan and tyrosine, the two
> precursors for serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine.
Yes, but you need to add that fish and seaweed has a high amount of
omega 3
fatty acids, which are anti-inflammatory. Zinc is a pre-cursor to the
*sythesis* of these
longer chain fatty acids. Stress disintegrates longer-chain fatty acid
formation. The brain
depends on very high doses of DHA to allow smooth impulse
transmission. Low DHA
produces neuronal misfiring, depression, memory loss, mental fatigue,
and brain atrophy.
Children in Japan are fed on DHA since they are born.
> However, fish oils also increase zinc absorption.
Indirectly. They work in tandem. Omega 3 fatty acids "de-stress" the
brain by making it more amenable to stress.
Zinc is involved in long-chain fatty acid production. Stress brakes
these long bonds and depletes zinc and so we have a
vicious cycle going on.
>So we have a
> population, assuming a traditional diet, that loads up all the time on
> trytophan, tyrosine, zinc, and omega 3's.
Correct 100%. A brain without fuel (fatty acid, favoring DHA for
neuronal growth), is a brain that doesn't heal, but manages until it
degenerates. Let's call this kindling.
Zinc recharging helps, but doesn't get to the base of the problem--an
endless degradation of long-chain brain fuel. A brain that is not fed
for growth is a brain less able to handle its workload.
The people who "remit" from depression, IOW, those who have 1-2
reactive depressions to a major life event, just need a one-time
"zinc"recharge" in the brain in the hippocampus. However, they are
more able to handle stress for one reason or another.
On neurotransmitter pre-cursor load-up, as it is often called: This
helps the brain make it easier to work. However, without fuel (DHA
especially), and the true pre-cursor to the fuel (zinc), chronic
stress makes it impossible for the brain to respond to more and more
stress because of continual long-chain fatty acid disintegration.
The brain is 70% fat. It favors DHA as the best fuel for growth and
function. However, under conditions of extreme imbalance (high omega 6
intake), extreme stress, zinc depletion to prevent degradation, etc.,
the brain begins the process of neuronal death. It becomes more and
more unable to cope.
> The Japanese hardly have a perfect diet, but they do have a diet that
> protects them from developing mood disorders later in life.
Correct. DHA is *the* brain developer involved in neuronal growth.
Zinc is involved in its synthesis. Stress disintegrates the longer-
chain omega-3's. Although zinc is involved in neuronal growth, it is
*not* involved in prevention of relapse and thus remission because it
does not allow the brain to regenerate with the proper fuel. *All*
depression involves a cerebral neuronal atrophy due to a chronic
inflammatory reaction--food allergies (cerebral allergies), chronic
pain, autoimmune disorders. and major life stresses.
Low estrogen, falling estrogen during mid-cycle of menses, low
testosterone, all impact neurotransmission and allow for inflammatory
effects to gain footholds. Thus we have inflammatory states
exacerbated by lack of neuro-protective hormones.
Marie
Forgot one thing:
I had a girl who had remitted from depression after years of SSRI
use. She had described that her "black hole" days where not only
mental, but *visual*. IOW, she *saw* less visualization of color durig
these days and saw visually a "graying" of and even bright sunny days
were to her darker in hue, depending on mood. During times when she
felt "normal," she would tell me that colors appeared brighter to her
visually.
DHA is used mostly by the brain and the *retina*. The brain
concentrates 40% and the retina concentrates 60% percent of it.
What do people with severe, endogenous depression do? They go to a
dark room. Why? Because the brain and retina are in massive
competition for scanty DHA. The brain signals to the body that it is
overloaded and needs the retina to rest. Why do the closing of the
eyes (naps, sleep) help improve mood? Again, because the high demands
of DHA and closing of eyes allow scanty DHA to be used for brain
transmission and not visual processing..
She was the one that told me that when she was taking fish oil, with
higher EPA to DHA., and zinc. She felt better, but still didn't get
through the "darker days." When she switched to a higher DHA to EPA
ratio, she dramatically and rapidly improved. Within three months she
was depression-free. The nervous system completely regenerates itself
after three months. She saw a "colorful" world as her mood improved.
The dark cloud she experienced was the total sum of the retina and
brain struggling desperately to feed themselves, with neither
functioning properly.
Anonymous
> DHA is *the* brain developer involved in neuronal growth.
> Zinc is involved in its synthesis.
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/Data/SR20/nutrlist/sr20w309.pdf
Anonymous
Clem
> > Anxiety, stress, caffeine, and plain anxiety disorders all deplete zinc. This is why people with anxiety disorders have a "poorer prognosis" when it comes to depression
>> remission. Any stress, physical or mental, depletes zinc in the hippocampus. The reason why I'll explain later.
Okay. You're describing most depression that respond or remit using
SSRIs. Question: Just using SSRIs as a discussion point for now. Why
do SSRIs alone leave much to be desired? Why does it work 50% of the
time to 50% percent of the people?
> > Yes, but you need to add that fish and seaweed has a high amount of omega 3 fatty acids, which are anti-inflammatory. Zinc is a pre-cursor to the *synthesis* of these
> > longer chain fatty acids. Stress disintegrates longer-chain fatty acid formation. The brain depends on very high doses of DHA to allow smooth impulse transmission. Low DHA
> > produces neuronal misfiring, depression, memory loss, mental fatigue, and brain atrophy. Children in Japan are fed on DHA since they are born.
I have read that the three essential fatty acids are α-linolenic acid
(18 carbon units, found in green leafy vegetables, some vegetable
oils, and soy), EPA (20 carbon units), and DHA (22 carbon units).
These cannot be produced by the body and must be obtained from the
diet. The vegetable oils are questionable, since they are often
processed with the worst methods (non-cold-pressed methods) to the
point they actually become rancid and unsuitable for the body because
of their molecular instability.
Assuming that someone gets enough ALA, the body can produce EPA/DHA by
adding additional carbon units. However, the process to convert ALA to
DHA/EPA is not very efficient.
So the diet needs EPA/DHA from seaweed, fish, and so forth.
> > Indirectly. They work in tandem. Omega 3 fatty acids "de-stress" the brain by making it more amenable to stress. Zinc is involved in long-chain fatty acid production. Stress
> > breaks these long bonds and depletes zinc and so we have a vicious cycle going on. A brain without fuel (fatty acid, favoring DHA for neuronal growth), is a brain that doesn't
>> heal, but manages until it degenerates. Let's call this kindling. Zinc recharging helps, but doesn't get to the base of the problem--an endless degradation of long-chain brain fuel. >> A brain that is not fed for growth is a brain less able to handle its workload.
> > Correct. DHA is *the* brain developer involved in neuronal growth. Zinc is involved in its synthesis. Stress disintegrates the longer-chain omega-3's. Although zinc is involved in
> > neuronal growth, it is *not* involved in prevention of relapse and thus remission because it does not allow the brain to regenerate with the proper fuel. *All* depression involves a > > cerebral neuronal atrophy due to a chronic inflammatory reaction--food allergies (cerebral allergies), chronic pain, autoimmune disorders. and major life stresses.
> > Low estrogen, falling estrogen during mid-cycle of menses, low testosterone, all impact neurotransmission and allow for inflammatory effects to gain footholds. Thus we have
>> inflammatory states exacerbated by lack of neuro-protective hormones.
Several questions then:
1. Where do the hormonal imbalances fit into all this? I know that
with women, estrogen pays a major role. With men, it is testosterone.
Women have more problems with depression, at least in the Western
world, because their hormones constantly fluctuate every month.
2. I read about a woman with cancer in Japan who was given immune-
boosting drugs to combat cancer and ended almost taking her life. This
was at a time when doctors began realizing that immune system hyper-
reactivity created problems in brain neuro-transmission. Does the
immune system attack its own brain tissue as it does other tissues,
such as with MS, Lupus, etc.? Is this why food allergies are major
causes of long-term depression? How does EPA/DHA, anti-
inflammatories, help with brain targeting by antibodies and myelin
sheaths in MS ad on and on?
3. I know that low estrogen reduces DHA levels. Why? Is estrogen a
built-in anti-stress hormone? What about testosterone in men? It
declines with age. Is it neuro-protective as well?
4. Is it too late for someone who never grew up with high amounts of
EPA/DHA in their diet to completely remit? I know that the brain will
use any fat to re-build itself (turnover cells) again and again. I
have read that people who have taken high doses of DHA who have
remitted.
5. Zinc is highly concentrated in male testes. Does this explain male
sexual dysfunction from zinc routing into the hippocampus during tthe
time they take SSRIs?
Clem
> Marie <ane...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > Anxiety, stress, caffeine, and plain anxiety disorders all deplete zinc. This is why people with anxiety disorders have a "poorer prognosis" when it comes to depression
> >> remission. Any stress, physical or mental, depletes zinc in the hippocampus. The reason why I'll explain later.
>
> Okay. You're describing most depression that respond or remit using
> SSRIs. Question: Just using SSRIs as a discussion point for now. Why
> do SSRIs alone leave much to be desired? Why does it work 50% of the
> time to 50% percent of the people?
>
> > > Yes, but you need to add that fish and seaweed has a high amount of omega 3 fatty acids, which are anti-inflammatory. Zinc is a pre-cursor to the *synthesis* of these
> > > longer chain fatty acids. Stress disintegrates longer-chain fatty acid formation. The brain depends on very high doses of DHA to allow smooth impulse transmission. Low DHA
> > > produces neuronal misfiring, depression, memory loss, mental fatigue, and brain atrophy. Children in Japan are fed on DHA since they are born.
>
BTW, assuming you'll come back!
My wife has a classic case of PMDD. She takes SSRIs, but the last two
weeks the only thing that makes her keep her moods up is
1) not eating 2) drinking caffeine 3) massive exposure to sunlight.
It's okay, but it becomes a battle until after her period, where she
acts like
nothing happened. Are the three related?
Marie
> My wife has a classic case of PMDD. She takes SSRIs, but the last two
> weeks the only thing that makes her keep her moods up is
> 1) not eating 2) drinking caffeine 3) massive exposure to sunlight.
> It's okay, but it becomes a battle until after her period, where she
> acts like nothing happened. Are the three related?
Yes. Fasting and caffeine are her body's *desperate* attempts to get
lower
SHBG levels, while simultaneously increasing the percentage of free,
circulating estradiol.
Caffeine spikes insulin levels. Insulin lowers SHBG. That's how
caffeine can raise circulating
estrogen levels by as much as 70%. If estrogen is bound it is
useless.
The problem with PMDD is that women have, in general terms, high SHBG
levels and lower free estrogen.
Progesterone has nothing to do with PMDD. If estrogen is bound, it is
useless. If it circulates, it is free to bind
to receptors to activate serotonin and dopamine synthesis (among other
things).
Estrogen patches usually don't work by themselves, as SHBG rises with
increasing estrogen levels.
The key is to increase circulating estrogen while preventing its
endless deactivation by SHBG.
Omega 3's (EPA/DHA) reduce SHBG. Again, we end up with the same
problem--our shift away
from omega 3 to hydrogenated omega 6's.
Vitamin D is a secondary pathway of PMDD. Lowered, free circulating
estrogen
disintegrates vitamin D synthesis necessary for mood stability.
The only way to increase circulating free estrogen is to eat foods
that raise it (boron-rich foods, for example), and
go to the omega 3's to reduce SHBG levels.
Marie
> Okay. You're describing most depression that respond or remit using
> SSRIs. Question: Just using SSRIs as a discussion point for now. Why
> do SSRIs alone leave much to be desired? Why does it work 50% of the
> time to 50% percent of the people?
Low omega 3 intake, especially DHA. There are structural defects in
some depressions.
> Several questions then:
> 1. Where do the hormonal imbalances fit into all this? I know that
> with women, estrogen pays a major role. With men, it is testosterone.
> Women have more problems with depression, at least in the Western
> world, because their hormones constantly fluctuate every month.
I have explained PMDD, the most severe for of the PMS variants.
> 2. I read about a woman with cancer in Japan who was given immune-
> boosting drugs to combat cancer and ended almost taking her life. This
> was at a time when doctors began realizing that immune system hyper-
> reactivity created problems in brain neuro-transmission. Does the
> immune system attack its own brain tissue as it does other tissues,
> such as with MS, Lupus, etc.?
Yes. This is why food allergies can trigger depression. Food allergies
are behind many cases of chronic
depression no matter what.
> How does EPA/DHA, anti-
> inflammatories, help with brain targeting by antibodies and myelin
> sheaths in MS ad on and on?
This would take days just to explain the basics. Suffice to say that
EPA/DHA
are anti-inflammatory in nature.
> 3. I know that low estrogen reduces DHA levels. Why? Is estrogen a
> built-in anti-stress hormone? What about testosterone in men? It
> declines with age. Is it neuro-protective as well?
With men, mid-life depression is pretty much the same as that of
women--.
Not low testosterone levels per se, but whether or not it is bound to
SHBG.
Testosterone decline with age, but SHBG also becomes more active.
So we have the same thing that women go through.
Omega 3's deactivate SHBG, freeing up more testosterone.
> 4. Is it too late for someone who never grew up with high amounts of
> EPA/DHA in their diet to completely remit? I know that the brain will
> use any fat to re-build itself (turnover cells) again and again. I
> have read that people who have taken high doses of DHA who have
> remitted.
Assuming that the brain has no structural defects, yes.
> 5. Zinc is highly concentrated in male testes. Does this explain male
> sexual dysfunction from zinc routing into the hippocampus during tthe
> time they take SSRIs?
Yes.
Doug Laidlaw
> "Clem" <comb...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:1e910266-60ff-43ee...@31g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
>> Zinc is the most difficult mineral to be utilized by the body because
>> there are so many factors that interfere with its absorption.
>
> Interesting points, Clem. Thank you for mentioning them. I am a major
> consumer of beef (I like to make my own beef jerky, for example), and
> you've given me a new reason to continue.
>
> I'll have to take a look at zinc now.
>
My pdoc is a strong believer in zinc. I take extra zinc (in the form of a
"primer" from the Pfeiffer project) for a week before New Moon, to help me
deal with my monthly dip. I am on 350 mg zinc picolinate daily (equivalent
to 70 mg elemental zinc - sounds as though Clem is right!) with an extra
25 mg in the primer. It should be taken in the evening.
You will recall my story about my apparent bad reaction to Pristiq. It
didn't make sense. Her theory was that I had a virus. I have just started
Pristiq again, and am on my first week on that alone. The previous scenario
didn't come back.
Why? My wife's theory was that the previous round had got me immune to the
side effects. My pdoc's theory was that she had filled me so full of zinc
supplement that the virus didn't put me to bed, only made me feel really
rotten. Certainly in the latter case, it wasn't a flu-like virus. She
claims that she has seen plenty of cases when her patients have only mild
symptoms, while their partners, who are not on vitamins, go on the sick
list. Who knows? A woman who was a dealer in Amway vitamins was taking
everything they sold. When she developed cancer, her doctor commented on
her extremely good general health and resistance, which she attributed to
the vitamins. But remember the label: vitamin supplements can't help you if
you are not deficient in the vitamin.
Doug.
Marie
> Clem wrote:
> The only way to increase circulating free estrogen is to eat foods
> that raise it (boron-rich foods, for example), and
> go to the omega 3's to reduce SHBG levels.
One woman I knew who had PMDD took 16 mg boron daily to temporaily
raise estrogen (and testoterone) levels.
She only did it for 3 days or so. Then she went hypomanic and had OCD.
No big deal, as a small dose of any dopanine-blocker
can take care of the OCD and mild hypomania. However, and estrogen
lift means an SHBG increase, so she crashed with depression
the next day.
This is a dead giveaway that low or lowering *unbound* estrogen levels
are responsible for depression.
Estrogen increases DHA synthesis, lowers its breakdown, and thus
increases serotonin levels and dopamine
at the D-2 area of the striatum. Talking about euphoric hypomania with
OCD.
Boron will raise estrogen. However, a woman does not want the
dangerous increase if she has high SHBG levels.
Indicators of high SHBG levels:
Low total cholesterol
Hyperthyroidism borderline or above
Smoking
Age
There are many others.
Nom dePlume
news:8fl7s6-...@dougshost.douglaidlaw.net...
That's the real trick, isn't it? How would you know if you had a deficiency?
Eating through the entire supplement aisle in the drugstore to see if
anything helps doesn't seem very practical.
Anonymous
> Doug Laidlaw wrote...
>
>> My pdoc is a strong believer in zinc. I take extra zinc
>> (in the form of a primer from the Pfeiffer project) for
>> daily...
>> A woman who was a dealer in Amway vitamins was taking
>> everything they sold. When she developed cancer, her
>> doctor commented on her extremely good general health
>> and resistance, which she attributed to the vitamins.
>> But remember the label: vitamin supplements can't help
>> you if you are not deficient in the vitamin.
>
> That's the real trick, isn't it? How would you know if
> you had a deficiency? Eating through the entire supplement
> aisle in the drugstore to see if anything helps doesn't
> seem very practical.
Then make yourself useful, do some research into the
symptoms associated with various supplement deficiencies,
write a book about it, and market it along side your
other one on your website.