greetings earthlings
Dave
manic depressive.. i recently ended a 2 year relationship with a woman i
loved very much that was.. i didn't know anything about manic
depression, but i knew something was very wrong (from my perspective
anyway)
why i'm posting i'm not entirely sure.. definitely i'm still
disappointed over the outcome.. i feel a little guilty because i
basically didn't know shit about this stuff.. in the end i had convinced
myself the woman was some kind of souless wraith
spawn of satan or something
this is silly, but originally i was impressed by her total can do
attitude.. i had never met a woman who could drink me under the table
and never even slur??!! kidding,.. kindof.. in retrospect, she must
have been doing it to slow the mind down??
she seemed to clock at a pretty high frequency.. it was wierd.. she'd be
talking kinda sensible and then she would just go into like totally
different places.. i was providing some kindof audible stimulous, but
she was in a different place with different people, incoherant.. this
tended to be at the end of the binges.. she could absolutely knock back
a 12 pack without flinching.. the ego thing raged unchecked too, which
pissed me off more than anything
anyway, assuming that this is not an optimal way to live and that there
are helpful therapies/medicines?, how do you go about convincing someone
to subscribe?
this woman was so beautiful and brilliant (in a solar flare kinda way)
and she did spend much of her time fighting for good things, well
intentioned
i still believe she wants to engage in long term relationships, be able
to stay at a job for more than 4 months, have a relationship with her
mom, her daughter, not having to find new friends, the whole bar fly
thing sucks, etc..
so will she just keep crawling from the wreckage over and over, always
finding some new, temporary safe place and ignoring the data - she's in
her late 30's now, broken marriage, lost her daughter to the ex and all
that stuff, temporary jobs, barely making it.. she was so cold and
bitter and couldn't understand why the karmic gods singled her out to
beat up on.. but some of the things she did were awful.. when a person
is manic and drunk do they forget? or somehow re-write how things happen
in their mind? i couldn't understand it
i apologize for intruding in your space, i've written volumes on the
topic that were much more articulate and probably a lot more
compassionate.. after i finally moved her out, i kept trying to
understand what had happened, i came accross a couple of articles
written by a manic guy and realized there was some stuff going on that
had nothing to do with satan at all.. akin i guess to an entirely
different vector space
at any rate, i guess i'm still pretty sad about the whole deal. In the
end, the cumulative frustration of close to two years came out and i
exploded on her.. i didn't punch her out or anything but i swear i
wanted to blow her kneecaps off
i didn't realize that it's not exactly her fault.. and i feel bad
because so many of us who don't know how the manic thing works have
probably repeatedly shown her a reality that is intolerant, selfish,
"our way or the highway", mean, etc.. often times she behaved like a 7
year old girl.. sweet, oblivious and happy, sometimes when i tried to
lay down some rules she'd get viscous, so crafty too - serious player..
i guess from all the years people have tried to deal with her
forcefully? i'm guessing at this point, but it's probably pretty close
to the truth
anyway.. for those who do decide to come over to this side, i'm glad you
do and i hope you can forgive all us who never quite understood.. i
think there is a lot of worth while stuff in this boring world :)
cheers,
grepmeister
elizabeth
i just joined this group, many members seem to be in solid relationships
so they might could give you some good advice.
but i have to ask you, do you know what codependency means? i know it
is a totally over-used buzz word from the 80s, but it is a commendable
piece of psychology. Before you worry about your sun goddess, you might
ask yourself "what's up with me?" the next wildwoman may do more than
just break your heart.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
LyndaNP
Hi dave,
Wel;come to ASDM.
> i guess you can aim a pistol at me and pull the trigger, as i'm not
> manic depressive..
That does not matter...what is important is that you have been involved
with a woman who appears to have Bipolar Disoreder. This is a forum whre
family and SO of people with BP Disorder can come to for support and
information.
>i recently ended a 2 year relationship with a woman i
> loved very much that was.. i didn't know anything about manic
> depression, but i knew something was very wrong (from my perspective
> anyway)
>
> why i'm posting i'm not entirely sure.. definitely i'm still
> disappointed over the outcome.. i feel a little guilty because i
> basically didn't know shit about this stuff.. in the end i had convinced
> myself the woman was some kind of souless wraith
> spawn of satan or something
Misunderstanding about BP Illness is probably the norm in our society.
>
> this is silly, but originally i was impressed by her total can do
> attitude.. i had never met a woman who could drink me under the table
> and never even slur??!! kidding,.. kindof.. in retrospect, she must
> have been doing it to slow the mind down??
Perhaps...self medication often happaens is untreated mental conditions.
I am a recovering alcoholic and I self medicated for years.
>
> she seemed to clock at a pretty high frequency.. it was wierd.. she'd be
> talking kinda sensible and then she would just go into like totally
> different places.. i was providing some kindof audible stimulous, but
> she was in a different place with different people, incoherant.. this
> tended to be at the end of the binges.. she could absolutely knock back
> a 12 pack without flinching.. the ego thing raged unchecked too, which
> pissed me off more than anything
Sopunda like mania or hypomanic episodes at work.
>
> anyway, assuming that this is not an optimal way to live and that there
> are helpful therapies/medicines?, how do you go about convincing someone
> to subscribe?
That is difficult...when a person is appraocable and is willing to
listen, then offering to obtain them help in a nonthreatening way is a
good approach. However, denail is often the case with people who have
untreated BP Illness. It is difficult to penetrate that barrier...as
well as frustrating.
>
> this woman was so beautiful and brilliant (in a solar flare kinda way)
> and she did spend much of her time fighting for good things, well
> intentioned
>
> i still believe she wants to engage in long term relationships, be able
> to stay at a job for more than 4 months, have a relationship with her
> mom, her daughter, not having to find new friends, the whole bar fly
> thing sucks, etc..
I can imagine...however in her present state these things are not within
her reach <sigh>.
>
> so will she just keep crawling from the wreckage over and over, always
> finding some new, temporary safe place and ignoring the data - she's in
> her late 30's now, broken marriage, lost her daughter to the ex and all
> that stuff, temporary jobs, barely making it.. she was so cold and
> bitter and couldn't understand why the karmic gods singled her out to
> beat up on.. but some of the things she did were awful.. when a person
> is manic and drunk do they forget?
That can happen...it did for me.
> or somehow re-write how things happen
> in their mind?
Definitely.
>i couldn't understand it
It is very hard to understand...you are not alone here.
>
> i apologize for intruding in your space,
It is a space in which you are moste welcome...there is no intrusion.
Youhave obviously been very affected by your relationship with this
woman.
>i've written volumes on the
> topic that were much more articulate and probably a lot more
> compassionate.. after i finally moved her out, i kept trying to
> understand what had happened, i came accross a couple of articles
> written by a manic guy and realized there was some stuff going on that
> had nothing to do with satan at all.. akin i guess to an entirely
> different vector space
Satn does not enter in to picture her...BP Illness is a medical
condition ...just like Diabetes or hypertension. It is a biochemical
imbalance in the brain.
>
> at any rate, i guess i'm still pretty sad about the whole deal. In the
> end, the cumulative frustration of close to two years came out and i
> exploded on her.. i didn't punch her out or anything but i swear i
> wanted to blow her kneecaps off
Thankfully you restrained yourself.
>
> i didn't realize that it's not exactly her fault.. and i feel bad
> because so many of us who don't know how the manic thing works have
> probably repeatedly shown her a reality that is intolerant, selfish,
> "our way or the highway", mean, etc.. often times she behaved like a 7
> year old girl.. sweet, oblivious and happy, sometimes when i tried to
> lay down some rules she'd get viscous, so crafty too - serious player..
> i guess from all the years people have tried to deal with her
> forcefully? i'm guessing at this point, but it's probably pretty close
> to the truth
Perhaps...has she ever seen a psycg=hiarrist? Irt sounds as if she may
also have alcoholism which has to dealth with as well as her BP Illness.
>
> anyway.. for those who do decide to come over to this side, i'm glad you
> do and i hope you can forgive all us who never quite understood.. i
> think there is a lot of worth while stuff in this boring world :)
Yes there is and with thee effective medication, we can enjoy our lives
and be productive, contributing to the well, being of others...family,
SOs and friends.
I have included some links for you that may be helpful:
The link for the BPSO (bipolar significant others)
public pages is:
On-line support for significant others of bipolar patients. There is an
online
support group for the families, friends, and loved ones of those who
have BP:
http://www.bpso.org
Also:
http://www.pendulum.org/articles/best_to_say.htm
http://www.pendulum.org/articles/worst_to_say.htm
http://www.save.org/depfacts.html
Here is an excellent book:
"Bipolar Disorder: A Guide for Patients and
Families" by Francis Mark Mondimore (Johns Hopkins)
====================================
What is Manic-Depression (Bipolar Disorder)?
--------------------------------------------
Manic-depressive illness (or bipolar disorder ) is a mental illness
involving
episodes of serious mania and depression. The person's mood usually
swings from
overly "high" and irritable to sad and hopeless, and then back again,
with
periods of normal mood in between. Bipolar disorder typically begins in
adolescence or early adulthood and continues throughout life. An
overview and
introduction to bipolar disorder published by the National Institute for
Mental
Health called Bipolar Disorder is available at
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/dart1/bipolar/bipolar.htm
Symptoms of MANIA include:
* Abnormally and persistently elevated mood or irritable mood
* Decreased need for sleep
* Continuous high energy
* Racing thoughts
* Overly-inflated self-esteem
* Distractibility
* Increased talkativeness
* Increased goal-directed activity or physical agitation
* Excessive involvement in pleasurable activities that have a high
potential for
painful consequences.
GETTING STARTED WITH BIPOLAR INTERNET SITES
===========================================
1. Start with the alt.support.depression.manic FAQ (responses to
Frequently
Asked Questions)
The alt.support.depression.manic FAQ is an internet "classic," a set of
questions (and answers) written by people struggling with bipolar
disorder for
other bipolars, and their families and friends that deal with topics
like:
* What is Bipolar Disorder?
* What treatment options are available?
* I've just been diagnosed. What do I do now?
* A friend or family member has just been diagnosed. What can I do to
help?
* How do I find more information about Bipolar Disorder?
Bipolar Disorder Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) File (Version 1.1,
9/25/96)
http://www.moodswing.org/bdfaq.html
____________________________________
Web pages created by people who have bipolar disorder
____________________________________
The Pendulum Resources home page is a collaborative effort, created and
maintained by bipolar members of the Pendulum mailing list. It includes
all of
the basics you would expect from a comprehensive bipolar site (the
a.s.d.m. FAQ
listed above, diagnostic criteria for bipolar disorder, a bibliography,
famous
bipolar individuals). In addition, it has:
* Links to bipolar home pages of note
* Best (and worst) things to say to someone who is depressed
* Several humor sections
* Alternative treatments to be used in addition to (or, much more
dangerously,
instead of) standard medical treatment
The Pendulum Resources Bipolar Disorders Portal
http://www.pendulum.org/
Joy Ikelman's bipolar site on bipolar disorder combines solid
information with a
very personal touch. Her site again includes the basics and adds unique
features
such as:
* Direction to a suicide crisis intervention internet site
* A listing of feature-length movies, made-for-TV movies, and
documentaries of
interest to people with bipolar disorder and other mental illnesses
* Scientific abstracts concerning comorbid (co-existent) psychiatric
disorders
that bipolar patients are known to experience in addition to their
bipolar
disorder
* Help in determining who else in your family tree may have had bipolar
disorder. The signs of undiagnosed mental illnesses to look for in your
family
tree.
Joy Ikelman's (famous) bipolar home page
http://www.frii.com/~parrot/bip.html
Moodswing.org. Barry Campbell created a "Resource Page" for people with
bipolar
disorder. He has a good links page which points you to other internet
resources.
Moodswing.org
http://www.moodswing.org/links.html
The Mental Health Net was not written or maintained by bipolars, but it
does
offer an extensive links page to a wide variety of internet links, and
provides
a rating system (1-5 stars) for the links . It is also useful in that it
provides links to the various manic-depressive newsgroups, such as
alt.support.depression.manic, to mailing lists such as pendulum, and it
has an
extensive set of links to articles about manic-depression.
Mental Health Net
http://mentalhelp.net/guide/bipolar.htm
Peace,
Lynda
Linda Channell
wanted
to give you a decent answer. I hope this is it...
I am bipolar. The man I love is bipolar.
There's no reason for anyone to shoot you. You took all you could, though
I'm
sure after two years together, the love is not gone. What you describe
could
be bipolar/manic-depression. It could be other things. Only a pdoc would
know and be able to truly diagnose her.
It is important to note that many bipolar people choose to ignore the
symptoms
and instead self-medicate with drugs and/or alcohol. You can lead a horse
to
water... you know the rest. If you are still on speaking terms you may want
to suggest a psychiatrist. You cannot make anyone "subscribe" to treatment
for this. In fact, most of us fight it. More than likely, given what you
have told us, she will probably "crawl from the wreckage over and over"
until
she hits bottom... she hasn't found that yet.
Don't apologize for intruding... you are not. You seem to want information
to
help. You seem to genuinely care about this woman and want to help her.
That
is a GOOD thing :) God knows it isn't easy sticking by us.
Well, we can't exactly "come over to this side." We're kinda stuck here
where
we are. There is no "cure" for bipolar. It is treatable though. The best
that I can tell you is... if you REALLY love this woman and want to stick
by
her, try to get her to see a PSYCHIATRIST (not a psychologist - maybe one
ALSO) to diagnose her. Then whatever it is, arm yourself with knowledge.
There are great places to go on the net. One with a bunch of links is
Robert's page... www.robertpo.com .
I wish you luck.
Linda
wyn
I'm thinking that maybe suggesting your girlfriend sees a shrink
might come across a little.... critical? If someone had
approached me that way, I think I would have become quite
defensive, no matter how lovingly they framed their suggestion.
I lucked out because it was my family doctor that first raised
the issue with me, after treating me unsucessfully for insomnia
for a year. Now, insomnia, I could wrap my mind around..... it
was a bodily ailment, less personal than if I had been
told "there is something not normal about your behavior or
thoughts."
Perhaps a more tactful approach would be to try and get her to
identify with the symptoms of bipolar, and allow her to make the
connection on her own. You might try giving her a link to Dr
Ivan Goldberg's manic inventory quiz. Take it yourself, share
your scores with her, see if you can get her to take it on a
lark..... don't accuse her or warn her that she'd flunk it, if
you know what I mean. Try and make a joke out of it, be
lighthearted and don't present it as a challenge or threat.
Another idea is to buy her a copy of a book, such as Kay
Jamieson's "An Unquiet Mind." Tell her that you enjoyed the book
and wanted to know what she thought about it. When I first read
it I strongly identified with the author, who is manic-
depressive. If that's too obvious (and the point here is not to
be obvious, because then you risk her shutting down on you), try
taking her to a movie that features a manic-depressive
person.... awhile back someone here posted about just such a
movie that gave a realistic portrait.
After the movie, feel her out..... gently suggest that you see
some similarities, what did she think about the character?
Or, if you know anyone who is bipolar and in treatment, try and
get them together. Often hearing about another person's
experience is the way connections are made.
Bear in mind, if she has been bipolar all her life, that is ALL
she knows. She will find it very hard to confront the fact that
other people live a different existence. For all of us, it takes
a very long time to confront this. But no matter what, you can
lead her to it - gently - but it is up to her to make the
connection on her own.
jen
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Roger F
of a better way of helping her and even him. Not only for the medication,
but for help with coping with illness and for finding a more realistic
perspective. Perhaps I should have been more tactful when I said it.
"wyn" <shinypenn...@webtv.net.invalid> wrote in message
news:08bf56a4...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com...
Mark of the Forest
Mark
wyn wrote in message <08bf56a4...@usw-ex0105-036.remarq.com>...
wyn
lousy memory for these things. I just recall a post about it
awhile ago, when people were debating whether it was a realistic
portryal or not. (I wish I could remember how to spell portrayl
right now...!)
To Roger - I hope you don't take my suggestions as criticism of
your post or you. I agree with you that this woman is best off
getting in to see a psychiatrist, it's the "how" that I was
trying to help with. It is a real challenge. I have a friend
with a child who we've suspected has bipolar, and no matter what
we did or said, we couldn't convince her to take him into a
pdoc. So I've learned a few tricks along the way..... initially,
we'd shower her with info about bipolar (FAQs, links, etc)
describing BP, hoping she'd recognize her child, but as much as
we thought we were being helpful, all she saw was criticism and
she got more and more defensive and resistant. Finally, she
turned on the Oprah show and saw an episode about children with
BP..... and that is what made the connection for her.... it was
like it all just clicked.... the next day she called the show,
and got an appt with the pdoc who was featured. Sure enough, the
child has been dx'ed as bipolar.
Dave
least I can try to know and understand something about what happened.
I'd like to help her if I could, but her manic self preservation
instinct is too strong for someone like me to do anything with. I did
try for close to 2 yrs.. I doubt my "sun goddess" as elizabeth says :)
will be returning. She was a beauty though, and there will always be
some chivalrous guy to pick up the torch ;)
Thanks again for lending an ear and the excellent reference URLs. I'm
glad to see people helping people and I wish I had discovered this place
a long time ago. If I had known a little more about stuff, I think I
could have done a better job. We're on this planet to learn, so I'm
trying.
best wishes,
grepmeister
mary sunshine
{{{{{ grepmeister }}}}}
Robert
wrote:
>i'm not convinced I am an earthling!
>
>i just joined this group, many members seem to be in solid relationships
>so they might could give you some good advice.
>
>but i have to ask you, do you know what codependency means? i know it
>is a totally over-used buzz word from the 80s, but it is a commendable
>piece of psychology. Before you worry about your sun goddess, you might
>ask yourself "what's up with me?" the next wildwoman may do more than
>just break your heart.
Ahhhh, but it's so worth the risk ;-)
Web Page at: http://www.robertpo.com
elizabeth
elizabeth
good advice.
don't beat yourself up about what you could have done to save the
affair. a close friend of mine recently ended his relationship with
another woman I know who is BP--she called me post-breakup and gave me
her version of the events. in her version, he was a jerk who dumped
her. in his version, she was physically attacking him.
i was torn, still am, about what to say to her. i call what she is
doing self-sabotage, i know because i am an expert at it. i complain
because "he's not strong enough" or "he's afraid of me" or "he thinks
i'm crazy" but when i calm down and look the events over, i realize the
relationship never had a chance from the start. i'm not suggesting that
when you are confronted with a person who is mentally ill you should run
screaming in the other direction--but just be careful...you only have
one heart, and its only so big!
Dave
>
> these people are pretty well-educated as a collective, glad you got some
> good advice.
the collective intelligence of a group always outweighs the intelligence
of one :) sometimes you have to do a little filtering - but that is the
way of life.. for everyone..there are some pretty large propellors about
though
> don't beat yourself up about what you could have done to save the
> affair. a close friend of mine recently ended his relationship with
> another woman I know who is BP--she called me post-breakup and gave me
> her version of the events. in her version, he was a jerk who dumped
> her. in his version, she was physically attacking him.
the scary thing is.. in two diferent realities, they were apparently
both telling the truth.. thats the hard part.. so frustrating when logic
doesn't work :) Video tape comes to mind!!! :) Or as someone else has
mentioned, have a manic re-read their journals/writings when in the
dreaded normal state. I've read some and all I can say is .. nice
penmanship? Now if it was prose/poetry (this wasn't) or something, you
should probably give credit for the persons effort.. Art is, pretty
subjective. Although I hear musicians all the time that are just awful,
sorry.. it takes years of practice and study. Unless you're irish :)
which I aint.. years and years of practice :)
it's kinda like.. if a tree fell in the forest and nobody was there to
see it fall, did it really fall.. i think a manic could stand on top of
the felled tree, look you dead in the eye saying no tree fell.. and
believe it until death!!
>
> i was torn, still am, about what to say to her. i call what she is
> doing self-sabotage, i know because i am an expert at it. i complain
> because "he's not strong enough" or "he's afraid of me" or "he thinks
> i'm crazy" but when i calm down and look the events over, i realize the
> relationship never had a chance from the start.
sabbotage is right, but it's your choice as to whether it had a chance
or not (assuming you choose mania - definitely tend that way from your
writing), unless you can convince him to stay on x for the rest of his
life? maybe that would be helpful, unfortunately it's illegal :)
besides, you'd definitely both be dead in a quick turn.. or likely broke
as hell from bouncing through jobs
i believe this girl defended her way of life partly because the
choices she made "only hurt herself" - they hurt everyone who tries to
love her (spare me the unconditional bullshit there too, i've heard
it).. sex was great, for a while - it was probably still good for her,
she'd disappear into the night.. hey - you tell me what happens when a
self medicating manic disappears into the night and comes home at 3am
with dirt on their knees, no underpants and smelling like a bottle of
vodka.. (she was usually smiling :) - I laugh a bit now, but it wasn't
funny at all back when) It was hard for me to stay impressed.. or as
she'd say repeatedly.. "not strong enough to be her man". sorry, there
is just a huge gap between the wonder woman, beautiful, intelligent
articulate thing she thought she was and the rude ass drunken trailer
park tramp slut she was showing the rest of us. She obviously saw
things entirely different.
again, a tree falls in the forest
she asked me.. "if you think so little of me, why choose to think of me
at all?"... i didn't say anything, but the truth of the matter is, i
haven't the luxury/curse of selectively deleting/rewriting events.. it
sounds both handy and also my worst nightmare? can you say tape backup
:)
so you ask.. why think of someone like that at all.. love is blind.. but
after a while, what can you do.. I'm not going to live with that..i
guess i'm "weak". but i do love her still, and worry about her a lot..
considering how high she flies.. if that wax melts..
i'm not suggesting that
> when you are confronted with a person who is mentally ill you should run
> screaming in the other direction--
I am!! kidding :) Everyone should give as much as they can. I did, to
the point where it drove me right over the edge. Which was quite
enough. I can't sit here and tell a manic that I have a better way for
them to live - it's not full of day trading, horse racing, partying,
fanciful flights to europe (as seen on 90210), a continuous stream of
new exciting people. Me thinks manics don't keep friends not because
they don't like the people, they just get bored with em? I wouldn't
choose that life, but it's not my place to adamantly deny someone else.
To each their own.. as long as they're not consistently hurting others.
It sounds as if the highs are really fantastic, but they seem ultimately
to exact an awful penalty..
> but just be careful...you only have one heart, and its only so big!
My heart is big enough for everyone :) It has scars, but thats part of
the deal. No hatred.. I sought to understand some things by coming here
and it has helped.
Robert
wrote:
>are we? just don't give me your credit card!
>
>
>Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
>Before you buy.
Oh defenitly worth it and you can have my credit card any time you
want it :-)
(Thank you, you put a smile on a very depressed persons face)
Linda Channell
>===== Original Message From robe...@netcene.com (Robert) =====