an idea about weakness
Relayer211
I read Chimera's post about weakness and the responses,and I agree that people
often attack people who they see as weak,but the idea that I have read about in
uplifting books and magazines,and that resonates with me is that sometimes
there is alot of strength in what people regard as weakness.For example,a lot
of people think being sensative,emotional,vulnerable is a weakness,and will
attack the person,who they see as sensative,emotional and vulnerable.(yes,I
speak from experiance),but I think that in alot of ways,being
sensative,emotional and vulnerable is a STRENGTH.I think one of the reasons
people attack people with those qualities is that they're afraid of these
feelings.In a sense THEY'RE the ones who are weak,or they wouldn't be so
threatened.
I was so much older then,I'm younger then that now -Bob Dylan
"ALVINTCHASE"
ferret-flavoured licorice
hi. i liked this post.
erminia
relay...@aol.com wrote on 8/18/01 10:34 PM:
yes. Some people are terrified by vulernability of any kind; they attack it
wherever they find it.
I've never understood this response. It truely is a puzzle to me.
Erminia
erminia
jani...@pacbell.net wrote on 8/19/01 3:05 AM:
> On 19 Aug 2001 04:34:28 GMT, relay...@aol.com (Relayer211) wrote:
>
>>
>>
> There's some truth to this. In my experience, the people who were
> cruelest to me often were not the people on the top. They were
> already on the top, they didn't have to fuck with me. It was the
> people on the inside, but on the bottom of the inside. They were
> right at the edge. If they had identified with me, that would have
> been death for them, so they had to visciously attack me to establish
> the fact that they were indeed above me.
>
> When you're weak, extremely clueless, and lack self-esteem, this can
> really destroy one's soul. I guess I had to hit bottom before I was
> able to rise again.
>
> Now, I don't look at sensativity and compassion as weakness per se.
> In fact, I view it as a point of strength. The problem is when we
> cave before bullies. The trick is in being able to stand up for
> yourself when the situation calls for it.
>
> ______________________________
> x-no-archive is in the headers
I remember that from school -- the people who earned their place on the
totem pole by attacking people like me. It was so obvious what they were
doing, I never really took them seriously. Which only made them madder.
Once, in eighth grade, some girl threaten to push me down the stairs. In
front of some other girls. She was really loud about it. I just looked at
her. Kept looking at her until she and her friends went away. From then on
I always acted as though she and her friends did not exist. Because what
they want really is attention, everybody looking at them.
Erminia
erminia
jani...@pacbell.net wrote on 8/19/01 1:23 PM:
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 15:44:33 GMT, erminia <ermi...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>> I remember that from school -- the people who earned their place on the
>> totem pole by attacking people like me. It was so obvious what they were
>> doing, I never really took them seriously. Which only made them madder.
>> Once, in eighth grade, some girl threaten to push me down the stairs. In
>> front of some other girls. She was really loud about it. I just looked at
>> her. Kept looking at her until she and her friends went away. From then on
>> I always acted as though she and her friends did not exist. Because what
>> they want really is attention, everybody looking at them.
>
> Ignoring them didn't help me at all. It just egged them on. But
> sometimes I think, maybe it was because I wasn't *really* ignoring
> them. I used to be extremely hyper-focused on how people were
> reacting to me. I did this as clandestinely as possible, making very
> good use of peripheral vision. I'm thinking now that my behavior was
> probably not normal because of this, and this may have cued them in
> that something was wrong with me, that I was extremely uptight.
> Which, of course, makes me an ideal target of opportunity. Actually,
> probably my whole body language worked against me: quiet, not
> friendly, not open, tense, insecure, everything, really.
>
> ______________________________
> x-no-archive is in the headers
Yeah, body language can send all kinds of messages that you may not want to
send. And people always get those messages, though maybe not conciously.
At the time of the incident I related above, my body language had started
changing. Some family members say that I developed a particularly lethal
glare at about this time. The reality was that I was standing right on the
brink of becoming a truely nasty piece of work. The constant mental and
emotional abuse of my childhood was adding up to something vicious.
Fortunately for the rest of the world out there, I used to read a lot of
history and biography. Looking for people who'd been through similar
difficulties. Found them. Was not thrilled by what they let their
childhoods turn them into. Decided to find another way. But kept the
attitude and the glare.
It's quite a balancing act, it really is. Keeping the attitude and the
glare without turning into another monster. Gawd, it would be soooo easy to
just slip over the edge.
Erminia
erminia
jani...@pacbell.net wrote on 8/20/01 5:37 AM:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 03:24:13 GMT, erminia <ermi...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Yeah, body language can send all kinds of messages that you may not want to
>> send. And people always get those messages, though maybe not conciously.
>>
>> At the time of the incident I related above, my body language had started
>> changing. Some family members say that I developed a particularly lethal
>> glare at about this time. The reality was that I was standing right on the
>> brink of becoming a truely nasty piece of work. The constant mental and
>> emotional abuse of my childhood was adding up to something vicious.
>>
>> Fortunately for the rest of the world out there, I used to read a lot of
>> history and biography. Looking for people who'd been through similar
>> difficulties. Found them. Was not thrilled by what they let their
>> childhoods turn them into. Decided to find another way. But kept the
>> attitude and the glare.
>>
>> It's quite a balancing act, it really is. Keeping the attitude and the
>> glare without turning into another monster. Gawd, it would be soooo easy to
>> just slip over the edge.
>
> Interesting. What happened to you, and who did you read about that
> had a similiar situation as you?
My mother found out when I was still a toddler that so long as she did not
hit me or otherwise cause physical damage, she could use whatever other
abusive methods she wanted. Dad wasn't around enough to see what was
happening. The Army kept sending him away, sometimes for a year at a time.
(Dad had an "interesting" career.) At the same time my parents literally
spoiled my brother and sister rotten. They were both raised to believe that
they should have whatever they wanted just because they want it, never mind
who they hurt in the process. (I am continually amazed that neither of them
has turned to crime. Well, they haven't yet.) It was my role to be the bad
child -- worthless, lazy, shiftless, useless, a shame to the family, a
continual source of disappoint to her parents, etc. And I was not allowed
out of that role, no matter what I did.
Oh, and I wasn't allowed to have friends of any kind either, child or adult,
because mother didn't "want anyone to influence me." Her words.
Socialization has been a problem.
I turned 44 this year, and my family still has me in that role.
In the fifth grade the school library suddenly got a lot of new books. One
of them was a bio of Josef Stalin. That made me sit up and pay attention.
An awful lot of the people who get write-ups in the history books have had
difficult or worse childhoods. And if you want me to list all of them, I'm
sorry but I don't think I could. Any of the Valois Kings of France. The
Tudors, especially Henry VII and his granddaughter Elizabeth I. But Stalin
kinda stands out there.
It did take a few years before I could find a balance between doormat and
monster. I read as much history as the librarians would let me, then turned
to psychology. (I still regard Freud with a certain amount of fondness,
despite the silliness of his theory about women and penis envy. Hey, he
gave us all something to laugh about!) In college I earned a B.A. in
History, largely because I find the history books more useful in explaining
people and what they do than the works of sociology or psychology.
Yeah, i could ramble on some more, but this is probably more than you wanted
to know in the first place.
> I developed an angry, silent glare too. It both helped and hurt me.
> It really served it's purpose initially. Cynicism helped protect me
> immensely from my own pathos and stupidity. But in the long run, it
> still hurt me. It's pretty f'd up. It was something I had to go
> through and then had to get out of.
But you need to remember that boys and girls fight differently. Or, at
least, they did back in the 60s and 70s where I lived. The girls were more
verbal, the boys more willing to hit. (I still think that chick who
threatened to push me down the stairs frightened herself more than me.) I
managed to avoid cynicsm, but became *very* skeptical of everything around
me. That has it's hazards too. No, I haven't let go of the skepticism, but
then I live in D.C. :)
> I could easily have turned into a monster. Every day I am thankful
> that I did not choose that path.
>
> ______________________________
> x-no-archive is in the headers
I figure if I accomplish nothing else in my life, at least I have succeeded
in keeping myself from turning into something horrible. People don't
understand what a stuggle that is, or how very brave and stubborn you have
to be to succeed.
Kudos to both of us.
Erminia
erminia
j_stil...@excite.com wrote on 8/20/01 7:48 AM:
> spoiler for religion. spoiler for religious spoiler: the people I know
> who are religious, do not use religion as an excuse to be cruel. They
> use it as a framework for understanding that which is not understood.
> They often use religion as a reason to be tolerant and forgiving. I
> respect these individuals, love them even. But I question the role of
> religion in society. You might even say I am critical of religion.
>
> that being said....
>
> On Sun, 19 Aug 2001 12:36:48 GMT, ferret-flavoured licorice
> <meta...@xsite.net> wrote:
>
>> a while back, i read a description of a science experiment to see how
>> lab rats who had learned to run a maze to get a treat would deal with
>> the frustration of being prevented to get that treat by a barrier near
>> the end of the maze. encountering the barrier, the rats displayed
>> understandable frustration, because they couldn't do anything to
>> improve their circumstances. the interesting thing is that, if a
>> second rat was added, the larger of the two rats would exercise its
>> frustration by attacking the smaller. sure, it didn't help the larger
>> rat get the treat, but at least it was doing *something* no?
>
> Scaperat turns into scapegoat. Dominance and aggression become a
> religious ritual. Violence ceases to be a random, natural phenomenon
> and becomes institutionalized, becomes God's will.
>
>> reminds me a bit of people weaving in and out of lanes in heavy
>> traffic. they rarely get anywhere faster, but at least they're doing
>> *something*
>
> Doing nothing is immoral, it's lazy and laziness is one of the venial
> sins (or is it a mortal sin? I forget).
>
> judith
Sloth is one of the seven deadly sins. Unless they've changed the list.
Which I doubt.
Erminia
erminia
j_stil...@excite.com wrote on 8/20/01 11:49 PM:
> On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:28:40 GMT, erminia <ermi...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Sloth is one of the seven deadly sins. Unless they've changed the list.
>> Which I doubt.
>
> Thank you for replying to my goofy religion post :) On a more serious
> note, I read about your relationship with your mother in your reply to
> Janithor. Wow...I can't think of much beyond that to say. I'm glad you
> realized that you don't have to be what you were raised to be. It's a
> struggle, but worth struggling for.
>
> judith
Your religion was not goofy at all. I thought it summed things up nicely.
And thank you for your kind words about my other post. It took all day to
think up a coherent reply to Janithor. No kidding. Mostly I do not think
about it. Too depressing. ;)
Erminia
erminia
jani...@pacbell.net wrote on 8/21/01 3:21 AM:
> On Tue, 21 Aug 2001 03:28:32 GMT, erminia <ermi...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>> My mother found out when I was still a toddler that so long as she did not
>> hit me or otherwise cause physical damage, she could use whatever other
>> abusive methods she wanted. Dad wasn't around enough to see what was
>> happening. The Army kept sending him away, sometimes for a year at a time.
>> (Dad had an "interesting" career.) At the same time my parents literally
>> spoiled my brother and sister rotten. They were both raised to believe that
>> they should have whatever they wanted just because they want it, never mind
>> who they hurt in the process. (I am continually amazed that neither of them
>> has turned to crime. Well, they haven't yet.) It was my role to be the bad
>> child -- worthless, lazy, shiftless, useless, a shame to the family, a
>> continual source of disappoint to her parents, etc. And I was not allowed
>> out of that role, no matter what I did.
>>
>> Oh, and I wasn't allowed to have friends of any kind either, child or adult,
>> because mother didn't "want anyone to influence me." Her words.
>> Socialization has been a problem.
>>
>> I turned 44 this year, and my family still has me in that role.
>
> Bizarre. I had such a Brady Bunch life growing up, these stories
> always astound me. Were you the youngest?
No, I was in the middle. Older brother (by four years), younger sister (by
six years).
> Why would you're parents treat you like that? That doesn't make any sense.
I dunno. Treating a child badly just doesn't make sense. I'm currently
taking a vacation from trying to understand.
> What did your dad do in the Army that made him leave for up to a year?
The Army does this sort of thing quite often, or it used to. Send people
off for a year to some post in some gawd-awful country. Or some nice
country. In the Army, one-year posts were generally unaccompanied by
family, unless the soldier was willing to pay the cost of relocating his
family wherever out of his own pocket. Since everybody but the top brass
are paid so little to begin with, no one uproots their family for a one year
post. People have told me things were different in the Air Force -- they
moved _constantly_ and literally all over the world.
Dad was in Supply, mostly. But dad was also a Russian linguist, and the
Cold War was raging. You fill in the blanks. (I have some ugly things to
say about the CIA and the FBI.)
>> In the fifth grade the school library suddenly got a lot of new books. One
>> of them was a bio of Josef Stalin. That made me sit up and pay attention.
>> An awful lot of the people who get write-ups in the history books have had
>> difficult or worse childhoods.
>
> Ah. I saw some show about Saddam, similar story IIRC. I guess these
> are people who took the wrong path. I don't know what causes it.
> Hitler is another mystery. Certainly he didn't have a dream
> childhood, but for the time, it doesn't sound like it so bad as to
> cause HIM. Doesn't make sense.
> ______________________________
> x-no-archive is in the headers
Brain damage? Lesions in the brain from have been knocked around one too
many times as a small child.
Someone has just published a new book on this topic: Jonathan Pincus, "Base
Instincts: What makes killers kill." There's a review and interview of the
author at: <http://www.salon.com/books/int/2001/07/27/killers/index.html>
His theories are very controversial.
Erminia
Relayer211
>Doing nothing is immoral, it's lazy and laziness is one of the venial
>sins (or is it a mortal sin? I forget).
I'm very lazy,but in alot of ways I think I'm not "lazy" enough.truly.I've
never been a good doer,which you're right,is what this culture cares
about.making money,being a machine...what I want to work on just as much as
doing is learning how to BE...I've never been good at that either,and I think
that's just as important as doing.Not to our fast paced,mechanistic,hyper
consumer,capitalist culture,but to me...