Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
anonymous punters in cyberspace.

I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever have to
want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have
children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.

Most of my friends have at least one child and rave about how
wonderful, worthwhile and enriching it is, and my mother also thinks
it is great - (mainly I guess because I was her child and I would
enrich anyone's life :) )

I don't want to regret missing my chance to have children, on the
other hand, I see many good reasons for refraining, and not stuff like
not being able to party anymore or changing nappies. I don't party
much as it is and nappies are no big deal and that age is over in a
flash. And for the joy a child brings those sacrifices are worth it.

Absolutely none of my childed friends actually sat down and made a
conscious decision to have a child. In every case it "just happened".
Not to say they don't love their children or make good parents, but
they just didn't conciously decide to have them. I want my choice to
be a real, considered, conscious choice, whether I do or not. I don't
want to drift into childlessness by default, or motherhood for that
matter.

Reasons I would have a child include that I have no family. When my
parents die, I will have absolutely no-one. No siblings therefore no
nieces or nephews, no aunts, uncles, cousins - nothing. I will be one
of those people who everyone feels sorry for at Christmas.

However, I feel that manufacturing a family member for myself is
somewhat selfish, and it is statistically likely that the child will
piss off to the far regions when it grows up anyway. (Especially
considering I live in rural Australia!!)

Also I like children and feel I would make a good mother. But is it
enough to feel that a child would be 'nice'? So would a lot of things.

And of course there is the environmental question. Can I really pop
out yet another resource-guzzling twat-monster and still say I care
about the planet?

Will I be unfulfilled as a woman if I don't have a child? Do I have
the right to create another human who will have the role of fulfiling
me?

Is parenthood REALLY as worthwhile as people say it is, or do they
just say that because they have to gloss over the fact that deep down
they wish they had done something else with their lives? It's no co-
incidence that a person's fertility window begins to close at the same
time they begin to realise that there are things they haven't achieved
and never will, so maybe they like to take their mind off it by having
a kid. And maybe the kid will grow up to be the ballerina they never
were...

I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs old,
single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged. I have a
cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much trouble.

I have no children and no regrets.

And even so, is it not better to regret not having had them, than to
regret having had them?

I don't see how one regret is any better than the other. I understand
that once I have one (there is really no question of multiple
children) I can't put it back, but I can't pluck one out of the air in
twenty years' time either when I'm old and all alone in the world.

In a certain counterculture newsgroup, Annie <annpater...@myway.com>
 laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:

He works in an IVF clinic and is telling you about missed chances??  That's
strange for someone that works in that business.

Bwahahaha!

I hate partying, and as far as nappies, I hate them too and they make me
want to barf.  I wouldn't touch a dirty nappie with a ten-foot pole.  I
despise all that "mommy work".  One of the multiple reasons I'm here.  ;o)

There is NO such thing in an age where birth control is so readily
available.  You'll see it often in this newsgroup:  Bed, made, lie.

Good for you, you'll be much better off than your unthinking breeder
friends.

I am in the same situation as you, and I still want no children.  They are
WORK, and they are NOT your best friends.  There is absolutely no guarantee
that they'll keep you company when you're alone.  There is no saying they
will be there for you in your old age.  Honestly, my own mum tried pulling
that one on me once, and I really got her to think when I told her that I'm
going to be...yanno, *working* myself to be there for her when she has the
sniffles....because we aren't wealthy, and I have no siblings, no close
family, nor a significant other to depend on!

I also have an arthritic condition which is making my life a living hell...I
have no doctor or family support for that either....I ain't passing this
condition on, and I am NOT taking care of people.  So that's another reason
why I am here.

You can't deny your kid an opportunity because YOU are lonely.  You cannot
make your own problem (the fact that you cannot be by yourself) your
*child's* problem.  Of course, if you get along well, that's a real lucky
blessing, but kids should never be *expected* to keep their parents company.
Then parents think they can act like however they want.

That's up to you to decide, but there are many, many not "nice" things about
having children, too.

The people that don't think of the "not nice" things are the parents you
hear endlessly complaining about how haaaaaard it is to take care of their
kids (Answer: no shit Sherlock!!), then want everyone else's money for free,
for their own diecisions or mistakes.

"Woman" does not equal "mother".  That's a notion that belongs in the 1600s.

I myself was surgically sterilized at 27 (by, strangely, a Gyn. that also
runs a fertility clinic!), and I have NEVER looked back.  it was the best
thing i've ever done for myself.

You need to define "fulfilling me".  Living as I want them to live, morally?
Spiritually?  Being the cancer curer/child genious/international pop star I
expect them to be?

NO, they will not!  THAT is the ultimate selfishness, trying to live your
own dreams through your kids.  You seem to have a lot of those "Kodak
moment" and "my child will cure cancer" notions fixed in your head.  That
happens because of TV, media, and well meaning friendds advertising their
lifestyle.

Deal with reality.  There are six billion people on the planet.  Your kids
will most likely become day-to-day workers with some hobbies on the side,
just like any other normal, run-of-the-mill human being!  They will be
overactive toddlers, they'll be difficult preteens, they'll hate you in
moments they don't understand you.  These are HUMAN BEINGS, not trained
terriers!!

Those are my thoughts.  I am 32.

We can't, of course, make the decision for you, but it is very good you came
here to ask questions.

Rox

In a certain counterculture newsgroup, Annie <annpater...@myway.com>
 laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:

You have a recurring fear of being alone in your posts.  DON'T have a kid
just so you're not alone.  See how many people with multiple children and
large families are left to die in nursing homes alone, how many people never
get a visit from their kids, and how busy your kid will be with his or her
OWN life before you go any further with that.

See my response.

Rox

On Oct 18, 5:50 am, Annie <annpater...@myway.com> wrote:

Annie - the very fact that you don't see a problem with seriously
considering the opinions of anonymous punters suggests that you
probably should refrain from breeding.

Also: if you have no problem with describing sproggies as "resource-
guzzling twat-monster(s)", then I am guessing that there are some
other deeper issues which point toward choosing not to breed.

A lonely, isolated, financially-challenged woman in rural Australia is
probably not the best candidate for Mommyhood; but hey, that's just my
own opinion.  Do what you will.

It's also my opinion that this post borders on fake-y fake-y, and
there's more to this poster's story than meets the eye.

T. - Perennial Cynic

Or secretly envies. Relatives are highly overrated, and are often toxic
even if they are not breaking any laws (yet).

-Mb

His experience of working in a clinic where all his punters are
people who desperately want kids, eh? He doesn't see that as a
biased sample at all?

It's very common that breeders tell pre-breeders that. It's only
after they're lumbered that some will at least have the honesty
to admit that they just wanted others to go through the misery
that they went to. The sleepless nights, the shit, the puke in
their once-beautifully-long, now cropped-short, hair. The expenditure,
the lack of free time, the lack of free anything, etc. etc. etc.

I fortunately have encountered a couple of breeders, good parents
by even my standards, who did own up to the fact that they thought
they'd been hijacked by fellow breeders when fed that 'worthwhile
and enriching' line.

All in all it's not dissimilar from the stereotypical drug-dealer line...

As you've had no kids, you cannot make that final sentence from a
stance of experience and knowledge.

That's what the bowls club and the bridge club are for. Or whatever
hobbies you chose to have. I do prefer a christmas around friends
and those with which I've got a common interest rather than those
with whom I happen to share 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th .. of my genetic matter
with.

As a sprog who's the opposite side of the continent to the rest of
his family, let me be another datum to support that claim.

You may like the kodak moments, but a lot of people fail to grasp
the magnitude of 24/7/52/18+.

With no less of a straight face than a child-free person who guzzles
the earth's limited resources. Individuals are pretty irrelevant
when it comes to green issues - it's the industries that need to
change.

I think if you have to ask, then the answer's already no.

Will I be unfullfilled as a man if I don't go bald? Just because
it's something that happens to a lot of men/women doesn't mean
that it's something that is necessary in order to fulfill.

Biologically, yes. Biologically, pigeons have the right to shit on
your head too. But I'm an moral relativist. However, do you have
the right to take money off taxpayers in the form of subsidies and
allowances in order to support your self-fullfilment by proxy? I'd
have a lot fewer issues with breeders if they didn't suck so much
of my hard-earned money via the government taxing me.

I'd go for the 'or' clause. Then again, I know very few breeders,
so can't be certain. What I do know is that everytime I've been
with breeders and their kids, the kids have demonstrated quite
clearly that for me such things wouldn't be worthwhile, and the
parents thereof are _constantly_ paying a price for their decisions.
(And 'just once without a johnny' is a decision in that context.)

The more you swing the hammer, the more the nail goes in.

1) If your financially challenged now, you'll be a charity case with a kid.
2) Beware some of the crazier types who frequent places such as this,
being childfree won't turn you into a fire-spitting wacko.

but most importantly:

3) If you don't actually want to have a kid, then, actually, you don't
want to have a kid. You're on the 'childfree' side of the 'childfree/
childless' divide.

Phil
--
Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all.
-- Microsoft voice recognition live demonstration

news:1192701059.264874.150760@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
 He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have

SOME people, not all, by any stretch. I was fixed at 26 and 24 years later,
I couldn't be happier! Your doctor's experience is limited to only those who
want children. Of COURSE people at a fertility treatment regret not having
kids, that's why they're there.

I'm an only child of only children, yet I've got quite a "family". There's
DH, the cats, my small group of local friends and an ecletic collection of
friends of all ages around the USA. We're the place where all the "strays"
(most with parents, sibs, and/or kids!) end up at the holidays, and not a
child to be seen anywhere. Besides, who cares what others think? If you're
happy without kids, then not having them around for special Kodak moment
holidays is irrelevent. If you're lonely, then perhaps you'd find more
satisfaction in searching for/finding a significant other than in
manufacturing someone to love you. Having a child just so that you won't be
lonely is the most selfish thing a person can do.

Finances are NEVER improved by adding more people to the money. Also, if
you're alone, you will be a single parent. Is this whack-job doctor
seriously suggesting that you should become a single parent BY CHOICE? I
think that any "doctor" telling you that you MUST breed is guilty of
malpractice. Will he raise it for you if you change your mind after you have
it? Also, what if the kid isn't "perfect"? What if you have complications?
Who will care for the child while you work? If you're working and someone
else is raising your child, what's the point of having one in the first
place?

Bottom line, if you don't currently feel that your life is somehow
diminished by the lack of a child, don't have one. It's better to regret NOT
having them than to regret having them. If you don't have them, it's only
your life. If you do have them and regret it, you've screwed up your life,
your partner's life, and your child's life. If the only reason to have a
child is that your doctor told it's now or never, then never seems to be
what you've already chosen. Don't let someone else's opinions about what you
should do influence such an important decision.

TMcLone

The fact that once you have them, you can't (legally) get rid of them is
the exact reason it is better to regret not having them than to regret
having them.

Life is difficult enough without having parents who are at best
ambivilant about your existence.  If you have any doubts at all, I
advise against having children.  Children deserve to be wanted
wholeheartedly.  If you don't know if you do, don't.

Beth

--
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you
nothing. It was here first. ~Mark Twain

I see your point, but all my friends are happily childed and will give
me biased opinions. My gyno gave me a biased opinion. My mother is
giving me a biased opinion. I thought I would get more of a a variety
of opinions here.

Whether I call them twat-monsters or bundles of joy doesn't really
indicate issues any deeper than being conflicted about motherhood.

I'm not lonely right now. I have plenty of friends. (Mostly breeders).
But when I am old they will all be busy dying and losing their marbles
- right when I need them, selfish bastards.

Also I don't necessarily see how not rolling in cash is a barrier to
motherhood. People just scab off the government to finance their
children. John Howard keeps bleating on about how important it is for
us to have a child "for the country" - surely he won't mind paying for
it.

Exactly what the fuck is that meant to mean?

Among other things, why did a 33-year-old woman hear from a fert doc
that it's "now or never?" There are some few medical complications that
could fit- offhand, I think of endometreosis.

I've heard the "have a kid so I won't regret not doing it later/much
later." A very poor reason. Do you want to raise a kid NOW? Do you want
the extreme majority of your time, energy, resources and choices to be
about a child for the next, oh, 18+ years? (Amplified by being a single
parent. If not, then do you want your relationship to become about a
child?)
I'd say the poster is very close to being CF. No apparent desire or good
reasons to have a child in the present, that is, no desire to *be a
parent*.
Oh, and about "being fulfilled as a woman"-- what on earth does that
even mean? That one has absorbed the idea that women must bear children
and therefore this woman will feel bad if she doesn't? It's a non-issue
that gets thrown around recklessly. In fact, I think it's a rather silly
idea.
I do think it's helpful to think in terms of "being a parent" and not
"having a baby/child."
Ordinary day-to-day life can be very unfulfiling, no matter what choices
one makes. (And employment can be at the top of the shitlist). Maybe
it's easy to assume that, because "everyone says" one must have
children, then perhaps a sense of something missing must then refer to
not having had children. T'ain't so.

Ilene B

Because if you regret having them, you've just fucked your child(ren)
up. If you regret not having them, at least it's only you.

Let me put my two  cents in with the many good answers given so far.

Your relatives are not the only family you can have. You can choose
close friends, SO's, FWB's, friends at work, or other people or groups
of people to bond with; and those bonds are often closer than they are
with your blood relatives. So you don't have to die alone and be a
miserable older person just because you haven't spawned.

Jules W.

On Oct 18, 10:50 am, Annie <annpater...@myway.com> wrote:

 Hi Annie,
You raised very important questions.
I can give you my insight on all of your points:

These people in the IVF clinic are people that have a STRONG
urge to have kids. For whatever reason, religion, family upbringing,
hard wiring of the brain.
They have a yearning to produce and nurture. These are NOT people that
are curious about having childred
and certainly not people that have been talked into having childred by
others.

You DO NOT fit in this category of people wanting IVF treatment.

Ask them did they plan their kid. Ask them how much did they actual
involve themselves in the child rearing (meaning are they men who let
they wives get up at 2 am for feeding, did they always have a large
family support network that they could palm their offspring off on,
were these women career women that gave up high paying jobs to be SAHM
and have a walking wallet of a husband to support the family?)

Ok, changing a nappie not a problem a couple of times. Try sometimes
10  times a day for over a year.
No breaks, no days off, not even when you are sick.

Choice or no choice, the problems are still there. A car wreck is a
car wreck, doesn't matter if you see it coming or not.

That is the biggest line of BS most childed couples use. You have
friends. People whom lives you have touched that enjoy your company.
If all you have in life is people that feel "sorry" for you, having a
child not going to change that.
My wife held a surprise birhtday party for me at a resturant. I walked
into it and saw about 40 people, all friends and co-workers. NO family
members. I had a party at my house one week-end. Over 100 hundred
people showed up through the day, none of them were family.

It is selfish. Take it from someone that didn't have a father. Only
child, with a single parent mom.
It sucked, big time. Not having a dad in my life was really shitty. My
mom loved me and did all she could, but not having a second parent
sucked. Did I mentioned it sucked?
And piss off somewhere else? Umm, I'm an american living in the UK for
the past 20 years. Mom lives in DC.
I left home at 18. Your kid(s) will not be hanging around forever, and
the ones that do ain't there for YOUR benefit.

Over 6 billion people on this planet. You make the call if you think
Mother Earth needs more people.

I have a lot of childfree female friends, most are in the late 50's
and are enjoying life very much.
I had a female friend died of Cancer a few years ago. she was 50 years
old. Single (single, not divorced) and childfree.
She died in the home of her bestfriend and she was surrounded by
others that loved her. At her funeral, we all just talked about how
free spirited she was and how she enjoyed life. I miss her a lot. I
still remember the many of evenings we partied and had fun in our 30's
and 40's. She was fun and un-complicated. No family dramas.

And maybe they will the next little shit that will make a life a
misery for society.

Don't have kids if you don't have the cash. Seriously. This Walton
family "we will live off love" crap is not fun.
I grow up dirt poor. Mom worked a double shift sometimes just to put
food on the table.
I use to not see her at all Monday thru Friday because of her work
hours (she normally would work 3 pm to midnite)
And when she was home, she slept most of the weekend.
 I was a good kid, never had people in the house, did good grades, did
most of the housework, cooking, shopping and laundry. Which is why it
drives me around the twist when I hear kids bitch about doing chores
and parents running the kids around like chauffer drivers.
Sweet sixteen birthdays? Give me a friggin break!
I have NEVER regretted not having childred. I'm 47 and life is good.
Don't let somebody else's road map of life interfere with what you are
happy with.

EB

If you're not sure and do, and it's a mistake it's the innocent third party
who pays for it.
In my experience (27 years EMS, 16 years nursing most of it ER) the battered
child pays
with his/her blood, bones and mind. Almost 100% of the cases I've seen were
people who had
a child they were unprepared for, or unsure if they wanted kids at all. It's
the children who suffered for
their parents error. An IVF specialist will tell (sell) you things from
their perspective. It is an ivory tower.
I'm in the trenches and replaced the rose covered glasses with fluid safe
splash guards.
Bottom line: if you aren't sure don't do it. If you aren't willing to change
your life completely,
change your focus completely and willing to be a parent completely, you are
doing the child, yourself and
the community a disservice. The end result will be a dead or damaged child
and abhorrent consequences.

While it is your decision, it is the third party - the child - that pays the
piper.

Choose wisely.

tom c

Annie <annpater...@myway.com> wrote in
news:1192701059.264874.150760@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com:

His experience in an IVF clinic means that he sees _only_ people
who long for children, and not normal people. As a doctor, he
probably takes a lot of pride in being a trained scientist, and
yet, he cannot recognize that he is making the most fundamental
mistake in science, relying on a self-selecting sample for his
data.

That, or he needs to make a boat payment or six. His services are
not cheap, after all.

Having a child because some quack who stands to make a *lot* of
money if he plays his cards right does not seem like a good idea.

And they probably believe it, too. In fact, it probably took them
years to convince themselves of it.

Unless, of course, it grows up to be a pyromaniac, and lights you
on fire in your sleep.

The reason that all your friends who have children didn't
consciously decide to is that when people think about it
rationally, they decide *not* to. It really is that simple.

So, you're so emotionally damaged that you are incapable of finding
a significant other? The only way you can find real love is to
breed someone who has little choice in the matter?

And put you in a geriatric warehouse to die as soon as you begin to
get old.

If you feel that your only real purpose in life is to breed, if you
feel that's the _best_ way to spend your life, then you are
probably correct.
If you are financially challenged now, as a single adult, you will
be destitute as a single parent. And your financial situation will
*not* improve, a you start to miss work on a regular basis to take
care of the crotch fruit. If you find a man who will willingly
marry you to breed (good luck on that), and he makes a good living
(good luck on that, too), you might have a chance at a decent life.
If you can only breed by tricking some poor slug in to marriage,
then oopsing him, you're a lower form of life than spammers or
politicians.

You don't need advice to make this decision. You've *already* made
this decision. You're looking for support in acting on it. You're
looking for clever comebacks for friends and relatives who tell you
"you'll regret it." There are none. The only reason you need to
give *anyone* is "Because I have decided not to have children." If
that's not good enough for them, fuck 'em. They're more interested
in coercing you in to sharing their misery, in to making the same
bad decisions as they did, than in your well being. They view you
as a piece of dirt, to be ploughed and planted, like any other
piece of dirt. You don't treat *people* that way, after all.

And, BTW, you should tell your doctor, in no uncertain terms,
you're not having children, and he's not to bring the subject up
again. If he does (and he will), get a new doctor.

--
Free speech isn't always pretty.

Terry Austin

In article <1192720788.436620.266...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
 "Jules W." <JulesW1...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Amen to that. Biologic family is a genetic blind date.

I might well be alone as I get older, with hermit tendencies, single,
and childfree. That has no bearing on whether I think I should have
children.
By the way, tubal at age 30. Twenty-four years later, not a twinge of
regret, and I likely lost one great guy over the issue.

Ilene B

"tom c" <flyert...@spambytesdirecway.co*> wrote in
news:47177f55$0$47133$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net:

That would make a hell of a .sig.

--
Free speech isn't always pretty.

Terry Austin

Hi, Annie,

I think that I may just have to point out, that with all due respect to
your gyno, he presents a very biased point of view.  In your post you
mentioned that he spent his time working in an IVF clinic.  That being
the case, he has been surrounded by women with baby rabies who
absolutely positively gottahavababy no matter what the cost.  His
experience has only shown him how much some, certainly not all, people
long for children and will go to ridiculous lengths to have them.

There be the rub.

He doesn't seem to have had much experience with women who do not want
children, live quite happily without them and do not feel "unfulfilled"
in any way shape or form. Frankly, I doubt he would recognize one if he
fell over one.

I could never understand this "fulfillment" angle; it makes no sense to
me at all.  I am a woman without children, I certainly feel fulfilled
(and who is to tell me that I am not?) and at 50 years old, I have no
regrets as to my choice.

Let's take a look at it this way: say you have a child, and you find out
that motherhood is not what it is cracked up to be, and a child is not
the "joy" that pro-natalist propaganda would have you to believe.  What,
exactly, are you going to do then?  You can't, in the words of Ilene
Belinky, shove it back up.

Childfree Abby

--
The ChildFree Abby Archives - http://www.dismal-light.net/childfreeabby/

"No 33 Secretary" <terry.notaniceper...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99CD5CDB4E39Ftaustingmail@216.168.3.64...

Feel free.

Thx

tc

"tom c" <flyert...@spambytesdirecway.co*> wrote in
news:47178b5f$0$47110$892e7fe2@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net:

I'll even try to spell your name right.

--
Terry Austin

"I'm in the trenches and replaced the rose covered glasses with
fluid safe splash guards."       - tom c

news:13hf2n2joiq5i47@news.supernews.com...

Yeah, but I'd LOVE to see a video of someone trying to do just that posted
on Youtube. 'Course I'm just an evil, bitter, child-hating bitch. Grin.

TMcLone

John Howard, from what I hear, won't be in office much longer, and thus
it is possible that the "breed for the country" stuff is not a sure
thing in the future either. However, the childed always do get the tax
breaks.

And even if you do get hand outs, you still have to raise it.

Abby

--
The ChildFree Abby Archives - http://www.dismal-light.net/childfreeabby/

Childfree Abby <morga...@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:13hf88fes6cs5bb@news.supernews.com:

And live with the knowledge that you are a parasite.

--
Terry Austin

"I'm in the trenches and replaced the rose covered glasses with
fluid safe splash guards."       - tom c