Decision
Annie
very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
anonymous punters in cyberspace.
I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever have to
want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have
children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
Most of my friends have at least one child and rave about how
wonderful, worthwhile and enriching it is, and my mother also thinks
it is great - (mainly I guess because I was her child and I would
enrich anyone's life :) )
I don't want to regret missing my chance to have children, on the
other hand, I see many good reasons for refraining, and not stuff like
not being able to party anymore or changing nappies. I don't party
much as it is and nappies are no big deal and that age is over in a
flash. And for the joy a child brings those sacrifices are worth it.
Absolutely none of my childed friends actually sat down and made a
conscious decision to have a child. In every case it "just happened".
Not to say they don't love their children or make good parents, but
they just didn't conciously decide to have them. I want my choice to
be a real, considered, conscious choice, whether I do or not. I don't
want to drift into childlessness by default, or motherhood for that
matter.
Reasons I would have a child include that I have no family. When my
parents die, I will have absolutely no-one. No siblings therefore no
nieces or nephews, no aunts, uncles, cousins - nothing. I will be one
of those people who everyone feels sorry for at Christmas.
However, I feel that manufacturing a family member for myself is
somewhat selfish, and it is statistically likely that the child will
piss off to the far regions when it grows up anyway. (Especially
considering I live in rural Australia!!)
Also I like children and feel I would make a good mother. But is it
enough to feel that a child would be 'nice'? So would a lot of things.
And of course there is the environmental question. Can I really pop
out yet another resource-guzzling twat-monster and still say I care
about the planet?
Will I be unfulfilled as a woman if I don't have a child? Do I have
the right to create another human who will have the role of fulfiling
me?
Is parenthood REALLY as worthwhile as people say it is, or do they
just say that because they have to gloss over the fact that deep down
they wish they had done something else with their lives? It's no co-
incidence that a person's fertility window begins to close at the same
time they begin to realise that there are things they haven't achieved
and never will, so maybe they like to take their mind off it by having
a kid. And maybe the kid will grow up to be the ballerina they never
were...
I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs old,
single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged. I have a
cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much trouble.
Gwenhyffar Milgi
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
>
> I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever have to
> want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
> miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
I have no children and no regrets.
And even so, is it not better to regret not having had them, than to
regret having had them?
Annie
Gwenhyffar Milgi wrote:
>
> I have no children and no regrets.
>
> And even so, is it not better to regret not having had them, than to
> regret having had them?
I don't see how one regret is any better than the other. I understand
that once I have one (there is really no question of multiple
children) I can't put it back, but I can't pluck one out of the air in
twenty years' time either when I'm old and all alone in the world.
ShichinintaiRox
laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
>
> I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever have to
> want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
> miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
He works in an IVF clinic and is telling you about missed chances?? That's
strange for someone that works in that business.
> Most of my friends have at least one child and rave about how
> wonderful, worthwhile and enriching it is, and my mother also thinks
> it is great - (mainly I guess because I was her child and I would
> enrich anyone's life :) )
Bwahahaha!
> I don't want to regret missing my chance to have children, on the
> other hand, I see many good reasons for refraining, and not stuff like
> not being able to party anymore or changing nappies. I don't party
> much as it is and nappies are no big deal and that age is over in a
> flash. And for the joy a child brings those sacrifices are worth it.
I hate partying, and as far as nappies, I hate them too and they make me
want to barf. I wouldn't touch a dirty nappie with a ten-foot pole. I
despise all that "mommy work". One of the multiple reasons I'm here. ;o)
> Absolutely none of my childed friends actually sat down and made a
> conscious decision to have a child. In every case it "just happened".
There is NO such thing in an age where birth control is so readily
available. You'll see it often in this newsgroup: Bed, made, lie.
> Not to say they don't love their children or make good parents, but
> they just didn't conciously decide to have them. I want my choice to
> be a real, considered, conscious choice, whether I do or not. I don't
> want to drift into childlessness by default, or motherhood for that
> matter.
Good for you, you'll be much better off than your unthinking breeder
friends.
> Reasons I would have a child include that I have no family. When my
> parents die, I will have absolutely no-one. No siblings therefore no
> nieces or nephews, no aunts, uncles, cousins - nothing. I will be one
> of those people who everyone feels sorry for at Christmas.
I am in the same situation as you, and I still want no children. They are
WORK, and they are NOT your best friends. There is absolutely no guarantee
that they'll keep you company when you're alone. There is no saying they
will be there for you in your old age. Honestly, my own mum tried pulling
that one on me once, and I really got her to think when I told her that I'm
going to be...yanno, *working* myself to be there for her when she has the
sniffles....because we aren't wealthy, and I have no siblings, no close
family, nor a significant other to depend on!
I also have an arthritic condition which is making my life a living hell...I
have no doctor or family support for that either....I ain't passing this
condition on, and I am NOT taking care of people. So that's another reason
why I am here.
> However, I feel that manufacturing a family member for myself is
> somewhat selfish, and it is statistically likely that the child will
> piss off to the far regions when it grows up anyway. (Especially
> considering I live in rural Australia!!)
You can't deny your kid an opportunity because YOU are lonely. You cannot
make your own problem (the fact that you cannot be by yourself) your
*child's* problem. Of course, if you get along well, that's a real lucky
blessing, but kids should never be *expected* to keep their parents company.
Then parents think they can act like however they want.
> Also I like children and feel I would make a good mother. But is it
> enough to feel that a child would be 'nice'? So would a lot of things.
That's up to you to decide, but there are many, many not "nice" things about
having children, too.
The people that don't think of the "not nice" things are the parents you
hear endlessly complaining about how haaaaaard it is to take care of their
kids (Answer: no shit Sherlock!!), then want everyone else's money for free,
for their own diecisions or mistakes.
> And of course there is the environmental question. Can I really pop
> out yet another resource-guzzling twat-monster and still say I care
> about the planet?
>
> Will I be unfulfilled as a woman if I don't have a child?
"Woman" does not equal "mother". That's a notion that belongs in the 1600s.
I myself was surgically sterilized at 27 (by, strangely, a Gyn. that also
runs a fertility clinic!), and I have NEVER looked back. it was the best
thing i've ever done for myself.
>Do I have
> the right to create another human who will have the role of fulfiling
> me?
You need to define "fulfilling me". Living as I want them to live, morally?
Spiritually? Being the cancer curer/child genious/international pop star I
expect them to be?
> Is parenthood REALLY as worthwhile as people say it is, or do they
> just say that because they have to gloss over the fact that deep down
> they wish they had done something else with their lives? It's no co-
> incidence that a person's fertility window begins to close at the same
> time they begin to realise that there are things they haven't achieved
> and never will, so maybe they like to take their mind off it by having
> a kid. And maybe the kid will grow up to be the ballerina they never
> were...
NO, they will not! THAT is the ultimate selfishness, trying to live your
own dreams through your kids. You seem to have a lot of those "Kodak
moment" and "my child will cure cancer" notions fixed in your head. That
happens because of TV, media, and well meaning friendds advertising their
lifestyle.
Deal with reality. There are six billion people on the planet. Your kids
will most likely become day-to-day workers with some hobbies on the side,
just like any other normal, run-of-the-mill human being! They will be
overactive toddlers, they'll be difficult preteens, they'll hate you in
moments they don't understand you. These are HUMAN BEINGS, not trained
terriers!!
>
> I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs old,
> single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged. I have a
> cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much trouble.
Those are my thoughts. I am 32.
We can't, of course, make the decision for you, but it is very good you came
here to ask questions.
Rox
ShichinintaiRox
laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:
> Gwenhyffar Milgi wrote:
You have a recurring fear of being alone in your posts. DON'T have a kid
just so you're not alone. See how many people with multiple children and
large families are left to die in nursing homes alone, how many people never
get a visit from their kids, and how busy your kid will be with his or her
OWN life before you go any further with that.
See my response.
Rox
Pirate Queen
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
Annie - the very fact that you don't see a problem with seriously
considering the opinions of anonymous punters suggests that you
probably should refrain from breeding.
Also: if you have no problem with describing sproggies as "resource-
guzzling twat-monster(s)", then I am guessing that there are some
other deeper issues which point toward choosing not to breed.
A lonely, isolated, financially-challenged woman in rural Australia is
probably not the best candidate for Mommyhood; but hey, that's just my
own opinion. Do what you will.
It's also my opinion that this post borders on fake-y fake-y, and
there's more to this poster's story than meets the eye.
T. - Perennial Cynic
meb
Or secretly envies. Relatives are highly overrated, and are often toxic
even if they are not breaking any laws (yet).
-Mb
Phil Carmody
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
>
> I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever have to
> want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
> miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
His experience of working in a clinic where all his punters are
people who desperately want kids, eh? He doesn't see that as a
biased sample at all?
> Most of my friends have at least one child and rave about how
> wonderful, worthwhile and enriching it is,
It's very common that breeders tell pre-breeders that. It's only
after they're lumbered that some will at least have the honesty
to admit that they just wanted others to go through the misery
that they went to. The sleepless nights, the shit, the puke in
their once-beautifully-long, now cropped-short, hair. The expenditure,
the lack of free time, the lack of free anything, etc. etc. etc.
I fortunately have encountered a couple of breeders, good parents
by even my standards, who did own up to the fact that they thought
they'd been hijacked by fellow breeders when fed that 'worthwhile
and enriching' line.
All in all it's not dissimilar from the stereotypical drug-dealer line...
> and my mother also thinks
> it is great - (mainly I guess because I was her child and I would
> enrich anyone's life :) )
>
> I don't want to regret missing my chance to have children, on the
> other hand, I see many good reasons for refraining, and not stuff like
> not being able to party anymore or changing nappies. I don't party
> much as it is and nappies are no big deal and that age is over in a
> flash. And for the joy a child brings those sacrifices are worth it.
As you've had no kids, you cannot make that final sentence from a
stance of experience and knowledge.
> Absolutely none of my childed friends actually sat down and made a
> conscious decision to have a child. In every case it "just happened".
> Not to say they don't love their children or make good parents, but
> they just didn't conciously decide to have them. I want my choice to
> be a real, considered, conscious choice, whether I do or not. I don't
> want to drift into childlessness by default, or motherhood for that
> matter.
>
> Reasons I would have a child include that I have no family. When my
> parents die, I will have absolutely no-one. No siblings therefore no
> nieces or nephews, no aunts, uncles, cousins - nothing. I will be one
> of those people who everyone feels sorry for at Christmas.
That's what the bowls club and the bridge club are for. Or whatever
hobbies you chose to have. I do prefer a christmas around friends
and those with which I've got a common interest rather than those
with whom I happen to share 1/2, 1/4, 1/8th .. of my genetic matter
with.
> However, I feel that manufacturing a family member for myself is
> somewhat selfish, and it is statistically likely that the child will
> piss off to the far regions when it grows up anyway. (Especially
> considering I live in rural Australia!!)
As a sprog who's the opposite side of the continent to the rest of
his family, let me be another datum to support that claim.
> Also I like children and feel I would make a good mother. But is it
> enough to feel that a child would be 'nice'? So would a lot of things.
You may like the kodak moments, but a lot of people fail to grasp
the magnitude of 24/7/52/18+.
> And of course there is the environmental question. Can I really pop
> out yet another resource-guzzling twat-monster and still say I care
> about the planet?
With no less of a straight face than a child-free person who guzzles
the earth's limited resources. Individuals are pretty irrelevant
when it comes to green issues - it's the industries that need to
change.
> Will I be unfulfilled as a woman if I don't have a child?
I think if you have to ask, then the answer's already no.
Will I be unfullfilled as a man if I don't go bald? Just because
it's something that happens to a lot of men/women doesn't mean
that it's something that is necessary in order to fulfill.
> Do I have
> the right to create another human who will have the role of fulfiling
> me?
Biologically, yes. Biologically, pigeons have the right to shit on
your head too. But I'm an moral relativist. However, do you have
the right to take money off taxpayers in the form of subsidies and
allowances in order to support your self-fullfilment by proxy? I'd
have a lot fewer issues with breeders if they didn't suck so much
of my hard-earned money via the government taxing me.
> Is parenthood REALLY as worthwhile as people say it is, or do they
> just say that because they have to gloss over the fact that deep down
> they wish they had done something else with their lives?
I'd go for the 'or' clause. Then again, I know very few breeders,
so can't be certain. What I do know is that everytime I've been
with breeders and their kids, the kids have demonstrated quite
clearly that for me such things wouldn't be worthwhile, and the
parents thereof are _constantly_ paying a price for their decisions.
(And 'just once without a johnny' is a decision in that context.)
> It's no co-
> incidence that a person's fertility window begins to close at the same
> time they begin to realise that there are things they haven't achieved
> and never will, so maybe they like to take their mind off it by having
> a kid. And maybe the kid will grow up to be the ballerina they never
> were...
The more you swing the hammer, the more the nail goes in.
> I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs old,
> single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged. I have a
> cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much trouble.
1) If your financially challenged now, you'll be a charity case with a kid.
2) Beware some of the crazier types who frequent places such as this,
being childfree won't turn you into a fire-spitting wacko.
but most importantly:
3) If you don't actually want to have a kid, then, actually, you don't
want to have a kid. You're on the 'childfree' side of the 'childfree/
childless' divide.
Phil
--
Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all.
-- Microsoft voice recognition live demonstration
h
"Annie" <annpa...@myway.com> wrote in message
news:1192701059.2...@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
>
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
SOME people, not all, by any stretch. I was fixed at 26 and 24 years later,
I couldn't be happier! Your doctor's experience is limited to only those who
want children. Of COURSE people at a fertility treatment regret not having
kids, that's why they're there.
> Reasons I would have a child include that I have no family. When my
> parents die, I will have absolutely no-one. No siblings therefore no
> nieces or nephews, no aunts, uncles, cousins - nothing. I will be one
> of those people who everyone feels sorry for at Christmas.
I'm an only child of only children, yet I've got quite a "family". There's
DH, the cats, my small group of local friends and an ecletic collection of
friends of all ages around the USA. We're the place where all the "strays"
(most with parents, sibs, and/or kids!) end up at the holidays, and not a
child to be seen anywhere. Besides, who cares what others think? If you're
happy without kids, then not having them around for special Kodak moment
holidays is irrelevent. If you're lonely, then perhaps you'd find more
satisfaction in searching for/finding a significant other than in
manufacturing someone to love you. Having a child just so that you won't be
lonely is the most selfish thing a person can do.
> I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs old,
> single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged. I have a
> cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much trouble.
Finances are NEVER improved by adding more people to the money. Also, if
you're alone, you will be a single parent. Is this whack-job doctor
seriously suggesting that you should become a single parent BY CHOICE? I
think that any "doctor" telling you that you MUST breed is guilty of
malpractice. Will he raise it for you if you change your mind after you have
it? Also, what if the kid isn't "perfect"? What if you have complications?
Who will care for the child while you work? If you're working and someone
else is raising your child, what's the point of having one in the first
place?
Bottom line, if you don't currently feel that your life is somehow
diminished by the lack of a child, don't have one. It's better to regret NOT
having them than to regret having them. If you don't have them, it's only
your life. If you do have them and regret it, you've screwed up your life,
your partner's life, and your child's life. If the only reason to have a
child is that your doctor told it's now or never, then never seems to be
what you've already chosen. Don't let someone else's opinions about what you
should do influence such an important decision.
TMcLone
Beth Cole
The fact that once you have them, you can't (legally) get rid of them is
the exact reason it is better to regret not having them than to regret
having them.
Life is difficult enough without having parents who are at best
ambivilant about your existence. If you have any doubts at all, I
advise against having children. Children deserve to be wanted
wholeheartedly. If you don't know if you do, don't.
Beth
--
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you
nothing. It was here first. ~Mark Twain
Annie
Pirate Queen wrote:
>
> Annie - the very fact that you don't see a problem with seriously
> considering the opinions of anonymous punters suggests that you
> probably should refrain from breeding.
I see your point, but all my friends are happily childed and will give
me biased opinions. My gyno gave me a biased opinion. My mother is
giving me a biased opinion. I thought I would get more of a a variety
of opinions here.
>
> Also: if you have no problem with describing sproggies as "resource-
> guzzling twat-monster(s)", then I am guessing that there are some
> other deeper issues which point toward choosing not to breed.
Whether I call them twat-monsters or bundles of joy doesn't really
indicate issues any deeper than being conflicted about motherhood.
>
> A lonely, isolated, financially-challenged woman in rural Australia is
> probably not the best candidate for Mommyhood; but hey, that's just my
> own opinion. Do what you will.
I'm not lonely right now. I have plenty of friends. (Mostly breeders).
But when I am old they will all be busy dying and losing their marbles
- right when I need them, selfish bastards.
Also I don't necessarily see how not rolling in cash is a barrier to
motherhood. People just scab off the government to finance their
children. John Howard keeps bleating on about how important it is for
us to have a child "for the country" - surely he won't mind paying for
it.
>
> It's also my opinion that this post borders on fake-y fake-y, and
> there's more to this poster's story than meets the eye.
Exactly what the fuck is that meant to mean?
>
> T. - Perennial Cynic
Ilene Bilenky
Among other things, why did a 33-year-old woman hear from a fert doc
that it's "now or never?" There are some few medical complications that
could fit- offhand, I think of endometreosis.
I've heard the "have a kid so I won't regret not doing it later/much
later." A very poor reason. Do you want to raise a kid NOW? Do you want
the extreme majority of your time, energy, resources and choices to be
about a child for the next, oh, 18+ years? (Amplified by being a single
parent. If not, then do you want your relationship to become about a
child?)
I'd say the poster is very close to being CF. No apparent desire or good
reasons to have a child in the present, that is, no desire to *be a
parent*.
Oh, and about "being fulfilled as a woman"-- what on earth does that
even mean? That one has absorbed the idea that women must bear children
and therefore this woman will feel bad if she doesn't? It's a non-issue
that gets thrown around recklessly. In fact, I think it's a rather silly
idea.
I do think it's helpful to think in terms of "being a parent" and not
"having a baby/child."
Ordinary day-to-day life can be very unfulfiling, no matter what choices
one makes. (And employment can be at the top of the shitlist). Maybe
it's easy to assume that, because "everyone says" one must have
children, then perhaps a sense of something missing must then refer to
not having had children. T'ain't so.
Ilene B
Gwenhyffar Milgi
Because if you regret having them, you've just fucked your child(ren)
up. If you regret not having them, at least it's only you.
Jules W.
> scribbled thusly:
>
> >Hi, my name's Annie,
>
>
Let me put my two cents in with the many good answers given so far.
Your relatives are not the only family you can have. You can choose
close friends, SO's, FWB's, friends at work, or other people or groups
of people to bond with; and those bonds are often closer than they are
with your blood relatives. So you don't have to die alone and be a
miserable older person just because you haven't spawned.
Jules W.
EB
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
>
Hi Annie,
You raised very important questions.
I can give you my insight on all of your points:
> I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever have to
> want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
> miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
>
These people in the IVF clinic are people that have a STRONG
urge to have kids. For whatever reason, religion, family upbringing,
hard wiring of the brain.
They have a yearning to produce and nurture. These are NOT people that
are curious about having childred
and certainly not people that have been talked into having childred by
others.
You DO NOT fit in this category of people wanting IVF treatment.
> Most of my friends have at least one child and rave about how
> wonderful, worthwhile and enriching it is, and my mother also thinks
> it is great - (mainly I guess because I was her child and I would
> enrich anyone's life :) )
>
Ask them did they plan their kid. Ask them how much did they actual
involve themselves in the child rearing (meaning are they men who let
they wives get up at 2 am for feeding, did they always have a large
family support network that they could palm their offspring off on,
were these women career women that gave up high paying jobs to be SAHM
and have a walking wallet of a husband to support the family?)
> I don't want to regret missing my chance to have children, on the
> other hand, I see many good reasons for refraining, and not stuff like
> not being able to party anymore or changing nappies. I don't party
> much as it is and nappies are no big deal and that age is over in a
> flash. And for the joy a child brings those sacrifices are worth it.
>
Ok, changing a nappie not a problem a couple of times. Try sometimes
10 times a day for over a year.
No breaks, no days off, not even when you are sick.
> Absolutely none of my childed friends actually sat down and made a
> conscious decision to have a child. In every case it "just happened".
> Not to say they don't love their children or make good parents, but
> they just didn't conciously decide to have them. I want my choice to
> be a real, considered, conscious choice, whether I do or not. I don't
> want to drift into childlessness by default, or motherhood for that
> matter.
>
Choice or no choice, the problems are still there. A car wreck is a
car wreck, doesn't matter if you see it coming or not.
> Reasons I would have a child include that I have no family. When my
> parents die, I will have absolutely no-one. No siblings therefore no
> nieces or nephews, no aunts, uncles, cousins - nothing. I will be one
> of those people who everyone feels sorry for at Christmas.
>
That is the biggest line of BS most childed couples use. You have
friends. People whom lives you have touched that enjoy your company.
If all you have in life is people that feel "sorry" for you, having a
child not going to change that.
My wife held a surprise birhtday party for me at a resturant. I walked
into it and saw about 40 people, all friends and co-workers. NO family
members. I had a party at my house one week-end. Over 100 hundred
people showed up through the day, none of them were family.
> However, I feel that manufacturing a family member for myself is
> somewhat selfish, and it is statistically likely that the child will
> piss off to the far regions when it grows up anyway. (Especially
> considering I live in rural Australia!!)
It is selfish. Take it from someone that didn't have a father. Only
child, with a single parent mom.
It sucked, big time. Not having a dad in my life was really shitty. My
mom loved me and did all she could, but not having a second parent
sucked. Did I mentioned it sucked?
And piss off somewhere else? Umm, I'm an american living in the UK for
the past 20 years. Mom lives in DC.
I left home at 18. Your kid(s) will not be hanging around forever, and
the ones that do ain't there for YOUR benefit.
>
> Also I like children and feel I would make a good mother. But is it
> enough to feel that a child would be 'nice'? So would a lot of things.
>
> And of course there is the environmental question. Can I really pop
> out yet another resource-guzzling twat-monster and still say I care
> about the planet?
Over 6 billion people on this planet. You make the call if you think
Mother Earth needs more people.
>
> Will I be unfulfilled as a woman if I don't have a child? Do I have
> the right to create another human who will have the role of fulfiling
> me?
>
I have a lot of childfree female friends, most are in the late 50's
and are enjoying life very much.
I had a female friend died of Cancer a few years ago. she was 50 years
old. Single (single, not divorced) and childfree.
She died in the home of her bestfriend and she was surrounded by
others that loved her. At her funeral, we all just talked about how
free spirited she was and how she enjoyed life. I miss her a lot. I
still remember the many of evenings we partied and had fun in our 30's
and 40's. She was fun and un-complicated. No family dramas.
> Is parenthood REALLY as worthwhile as people say it is, or do they
> just say that because they have to gloss over the fact that deep down
> they wish they had done something else with their lives? It's no co-
> incidence that a person's fertility window begins to close at the same
> time they begin to realise that there are things they haven't achieved
> and never will, so maybe they like to take their mind off it by having
> a kid. And maybe the kid will grow up to be the ballerina they never
> were...
>
And maybe they will the next little shit that will make a life a
misery for society.
> I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs old,
> single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged. I have a
> cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much trouble.
Don't have kids if you don't have the cash. Seriously. This Walton
family "we will live off love" crap is not fun.
I grow up dirt poor. Mom worked a double shift sometimes just to put
food on the table.
I use to not see her at all Monday thru Friday because of her work
hours (she normally would work 3 pm to midnite)
And when she was home, she slept most of the weekend.
I was a good kid, never had people in the house, did good grades, did
most of the housework, cooking, shopping and laundry. Which is why it
drives me around the twist when I hear kids bitch about doing chores
and parents running the kids around like chauffer drivers.
Sweet sixteen birthdays? Give me a friggin break!
I have NEVER regretted not having childred. I'm 47 and life is good.
Don't let somebody else's road map of life interfere with what you are
happy with.
EB
tom c
"Annie" <annpa...@myway.com> wrote in message
If you're not sure and do, and it's a mistake it's the innocent third party
who pays for it.
In my experience (27 years EMS, 16 years nursing most of it ER) the battered
child pays
with his/her blood, bones and mind. Almost 100% of the cases I've seen were
people who had
a child they were unprepared for, or unsure if they wanted kids at all. It's
the children who suffered for
their parents error. An IVF specialist will tell (sell) you things from
their perspective. It is an ivory tower.
I'm in the trenches and replaced the rose covered glasses with fluid safe
splash guards.
Bottom line: if you aren't sure don't do it. If you aren't willing to change
your life completely,
change your focus completely and willing to be a parent completely, you are
doing the child, yourself and
the community a disservice. The end result will be a dead or damaged child
and abhorrent consequences.
While it is your decision, it is the third party - the child - that pays the
piper.
Choose wisely.
tom c
No 33 Secretary
news:1192701059.2...@k35g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making
> a very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
>
> I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever
> have to want to have children, I will have to have them right
> now or I will miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if
> I didn't have children I would regret it deeply, and his
> experience working in an IVF clinic had shown him how much
> people long for children.
His experience in an IVF clinic means that he sees _only_ people
who long for children, and not normal people. As a doctor, he
probably takes a lot of pride in being a trained scientist, and
yet, he cannot recognize that he is making the most fundamental
mistake in science, relying on a self-selecting sample for his
data.
That, or he needs to make a boat payment or six. His services are
not cheap, after all.
Having a child because some quack who stands to make a *lot* of
money if he plays his cards right does not seem like a good idea.
>
> Most of my friends have at least one child and rave about how
> wonderful, worthwhile and enriching it is, and my mother also
> thinks it is great - (mainly I guess because I was her child and
> I would enrich anyone's life :) )
And they probably believe it, too. In fact, it probably took them
years to convince themselves of it.
>
> I don't want to regret missing my chance to have children, on
> the other hand, I see many good reasons for refraining, and not
> stuff like not being able to party anymore or changing nappies.
> I don't party much as it is and nappies are no big deal and that
> age is over in a flash. And for the joy a child brings those
> sacrifices are worth it.
Unless, of course, it grows up to be a pyromaniac, and lights you
on fire in your sleep.
>
> Absolutely none of my childed friends actually sat down and made
> a conscious decision to have a child. In every case it "just
> happened". Not to say they don't love their children or make
> good parents, but they just didn't conciously decide to have
> them. I want my choice to be a real, considered, conscious
> choice, whether I do or not. I don't want to drift into
> childlessness by default, or motherhood for that matter.
The reason that all your friends who have children didn't
consciously decide to is that when people think about it
rationally, they decide *not* to. It really is that simple.
>
> Reasons I would have a child include that I have no family. When
> my parents die, I will have absolutely no-one. No siblings
> therefore no nieces or nephews, no aunts, uncles, cousins -
> nothing. I will be one of those people who everyone feels sorry
> for at Christmas.
So, you're so emotionally damaged that you are incapable of finding
a significant other? The only way you can find real love is to
breed someone who has little choice in the matter?
>
> However, I feel that manufacturing a family member for myself is
> somewhat selfish, and it is statistically likely that the child
> will piss off to the far regions when it grows up anyway.
> (Especially considering I live in rural Australia!!)
And put you in a geriatric warehouse to die as soon as you begin to
get old.
>
> Also I like children and feel I would make a good mother. But is
> it enough to feel that a child would be 'nice'? So would a lot
> of things.
>
> And of course there is the environmental question. Can I really
> pop out yet another resource-guzzling twat-monster and still say
> I care about the planet?
>
> Will I be unfulfilled as a woman if I don't have a child? Do I
> have the right to create another human who will have the role of
> fulfiling me?
If you feel that your only real purpose in life is to breed, if you
feel that's the _best_ way to spend your life, then you are
probably correct.
>
> Is parenthood REALLY as worthwhile as people say it is, or do
> they just say that because they have to gloss over the fact that
> deep down they wish they had done something else with their
> lives? It's no co- incidence that a person's fertility window
> begins to close at the same time they begin to realise that
> there are things they haven't achieved and never will, so maybe
> they like to take their mind off it by having a kid. And maybe
> the kid will grow up to be the ballerina they never were...
>
> I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs
> old, single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged.
> I have a cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much
> trouble.
>
If you are financially challenged now, as a single adult, you will
be destitute as a single parent. And your financial situation will
*not* improve, a you start to miss work on a regular basis to take
care of the crotch fruit. If you find a man who will willingly
marry you to breed (good luck on that), and he makes a good living
(good luck on that, too), you might have a chance at a decent life.
If you can only breed by tricking some poor slug in to marriage,
then oopsing him, you're a lower form of life than spammers or
politicians.
You don't need advice to make this decision. You've *already* made
this decision. You're looking for support in acting on it. You're
looking for clever comebacks for friends and relatives who tell you
"you'll regret it." There are none. The only reason you need to
give *anyone* is "Because I have decided not to have children." If
that's not good enough for them, fuck 'em. They're more interested
in coercing you in to sharing their misery, in to making the same
bad decisions as they did, than in your well being. They view you
as a piece of dirt, to be ploughed and planted, like any other
piece of dirt. You don't treat *people* that way, after all.
And, BTW, you should tell your doctor, in no uncertain terms,
you're not having children, and he's not to bring the subject up
again. If he does (and he will), get a new doctor.
--
Free speech isn't always pretty.
Terry Austin
Ilene Bilenky
"Jules W." <Jules...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Your relatives are not the only family you can have.
Amen to that. Biologic family is a genetic blind date.
I might well be alone as I get older, with hermit tendencies, single,
and childfree. That has no bearing on whether I think I should have
children.
By the way, tubal at age 30. Twenty-four years later, not a twinge of
regret, and I likely lost one great guy over the issue.
Ilene B
No 33 Secretary
news:47177f55$0$47133$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net:
> I'm in the trenches and replaced the rose covered glasses with
> fluid safe splash guards.
That would make a hell of a .sig.
Childfree Abby
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
>
> I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever have to
> want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
> miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
>
> Most of my friends have at least one child and rave about how
> wonderful, worthwhile and enriching it is, and my mother also thinks
> it is great - (mainly I guess because I was her child and I would
> enrich anyone's life :) )
>
Hi, Annie,
I think that I may just have to point out, that with all due respect to
your gyno, he presents a very biased point of view. In your post you
mentioned that he spent his time working in an IVF clinic. That being
the case, he has been surrounded by women with baby rabies who
absolutely positively gottahavababy no matter what the cost. His
experience has only shown him how much some, certainly not all, people
long for children and will go to ridiculous lengths to have them.
There be the rub.
He doesn't seem to have had much experience with women who do not want
children, live quite happily without them and do not feel "unfulfilled"
in any way shape or form. Frankly, I doubt he would recognize one if he
fell over one.
I could never understand this "fulfillment" angle; it makes no sense to
me at all. I am a woman without children, I certainly feel fulfilled
(and who is to tell me that I am not?) and at 50 years old, I have no
regrets as to my choice.
Let's take a look at it this way: say you have a child, and you find out
that motherhood is not what it is cracked up to be, and a child is not
the "joy" that pro-natalist propaganda would have you to believe. What,
exactly, are you going to do then? You can't, in the words of Ilene
Belinky, shove it back up.
Childfree Abby
--
The ChildFree Abby Archives - http://www.dismal-light.net/childfreeabby/
tom c
"No 33 Secretary" <terry.nota...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns99CD5CDB4E3...@216.168.3.64...
Feel free.
Thx
tc
No 33 Secretary
I'll even try to spell your name right.
--
Terry Austin
"I'm in the trenches and replaced the rose covered glasses with
fluid safe splash guards." - tom c
h
"Childfree Abby" <morg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:13hf2n2...@news.supernews.com...
> Let's take a look at it this way: say you have a child, and you find out
> that motherhood is not what it is cracked up to be, and a child is not the
> "joy" that pro-natalist propaganda would have you to believe. What,
> exactly, are you going to do then? You can't, in the words of Ilene
>
> Childfree Abby
Yeah, but I'd LOVE to see a video of someone trying to do just that posted
on Youtube. 'Course I'm just an evil, bitter, child-hating bitch. Grin.
TMcLone
Childfree Abby
> Pirate Queen wrote:
>> Annie - the very fact that you don't see a problem with seriously
>> considering the opinions of anonymous punters suggests that you
>> probably should refrain from breeding.
>
>
> I'm not lonely right now. I have plenty of friends. (Mostly breeders).
> But when I am old they will all be busy dying and losing their marbles
> - right when I need them, selfish bastards.
>
> Also I don't necessarily see how not rolling in cash is a barrier to
> motherhood. People just scab off the government to finance their
> children. John Howard keeps bleating on about how important it is for
> us to have a child "for the country" - surely he won't mind paying for
> it.
John Howard, from what I hear, won't be in office much longer, and thus
it is possible that the "breed for the country" stuff is not a sure
thing in the future either. However, the childed always do get the tax
breaks.
And even if you do get hand outs, you still have to raise it.
No 33 Secretary
And live with the knowledge that you are a parasite.
Smalph
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
Not sure that's the very wisest course of action, but I guess if you
use it as opinion-gathering rather than determination of your life's
course, you'll be fine. ;)
> I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever have to
> want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
> miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
As others have pointed out, unless you have a medical condition you
don't mention, your doctor is an idiot. You have several years more
time to consider things. Don't let his "yarg! now or never! decide!
DECIDE!" be a factor in your process.
And, of course, it is also true that he's working with a self-
selecting group of women. I'm reasonably sure most women at an IVF
clinic really long for children. Most women at the tube-tying doc
really long for *not having* (more) children. At which location one
spends one's time is likely to color one's opinion.
FWIW, I never longed for children. For a long time I assumed I'd have
them, because that's what ya do, right? (wrong!), but I'm pushing 40
and not only do I still not long for 'em, I get more relieved every
day that I didn't just shrug and stop with the BC.
> Most of my friends have at least one child and rave about how
> wonderful, worthwhile and enriching it is, and my mother also thinks
> it is great - (mainly I guess because I was her child and I would
> enrich anyone's life :) )
Hah!
> I don't want to regret missing my chance to have children, on the
> other hand, I see many good reasons for refraining, and not stuff like
> not being able to party anymore or changing nappies. I don't party
> much as it is and nappies are no big deal and that age is over in a
> flash. And for the joy a child brings those sacrifices are worth it.
I don't party either, and never did. I think nappies are gross, and
would have made Hubby deal with them. Oh yeah, Hubby... he would
happily have sired and parented a passel o' tots if I'd leaned that
way (and he would have been a terrific father, I'll add), but even he
is more and more aware of how great it is that we went CF.
> Absolutely none of my childed friends actually sat down and made a
> conscious decision to have a child. In every case it "just happened".
> Not to say they don't love their children or make good parents, but
> they just didn't conciously decide to have them. I want my choice to
> be a real, considered, conscious choice, whether I do or not. I don't
> want to drift into childlessness by default, or motherhood for that
> matter.
That's fair enough. Frankly, you're being smarter about this than most
people who just go with the flow and end up with a tot or three a few
years down the road.
> Reasons I would have a child include that I have no family. When my
> parents die, I will have absolutely no-one. No siblings therefore no
> nieces or nephews, no aunts, uncles, cousins - nothing. I will be one
> of those people who everyone feels sorry for at Christmas.
Why? You don't seem like a particularly unpleasant person who'd drive
everyone away with your loathsome personality. Friends are at least
as good as family, because you find and keep them based on more than
sheer luck of the draw and social pressure. Come holiday time, we get
together with our friends *and* family. You say you have friends.
Keep making friends. Friends of different age groups, even. My
mother's guest list at Christmas includes a 90 year old widower and a
30 year old woman with no family in the country. Nobody's sorry for
anyone else.
> However, I feel that manufacturing a family member for myself is
> somewhat selfish, and it is statistically likely that the child will
> piss off to the far regions when it grows up anyway. (Especially
> considering I live in rural Australia!!)
This is very true. You can't - mustn't - count on someone else for
your fulfillment. Every self-help type out there will say that you
have to be happy with yourself before anyone else can make you happy.
If you're worried about feeling lonely at Christmas now, how will you
feel if you're home alone at Christmas knowing your kid is in Scotland
or Egypt or something, choosing his/her friends/partner over you?
It's damned likely. You've got a better chance of finding
companionship through your social circle than through your ova.
> Also I like children and feel I would make a good mother. But is it
> enough to feel that a child would be 'nice'? So would a lot of things.
Indeed. Including getting out and enjoying the company of other
people, so you know you're never truly alone, even if there don't
happen to be people within arm's reach.
> And of course there is the environmental question. Can I really pop
> out yet another resource-guzzling twat-monster and still say I care
> about the planet?
There truly is no shortage of humans. Is adoption one of your
hypothetical possibilities? Are you willing to take any kid you can
get? Do bear in mind that a kid you pop out yourself can be
developmentally disabled, psychiatrically unsound, or physically
messed-up, no matter how healthy you may be. Since "carrying on my
ever-so-precious genes" isn't in your list of reasons, adoption should
certainly be considered as a viable option.
> Will I be unfulfilled as a woman if I don't have a child? Do I have
> the right to create another human who will have the role of fulfiling
> me?
Oh, hell, no. At least the "unfulfilled" thing. You may be
unfulfilled at some point in your future, but the "as a woman" thing
is an insult to women who think rather than act on primal urges and
pressure from a zombie-sheep society.
As for "the right"? Well, sure, legally and biologically I'm sure you
have the right. Morally? I'd call it dubious. That's a lot of
pressure to put on someone who had no choice in the matter. And it's
a lot more intellectually lazy than fulfilling yourself through
friends, work, and play.
> Is parenthood REALLY as worthwhile as people say it is, or do they
> just say that because they have to gloss over the fact that deep down
> they wish they had done something else with their lives? It's no co-
> incidence that a person's fertility window begins to close at the same
> time they begin to realise that there are things they haven't achieved
> and never will, so maybe they like to take their mind off it by having
> a kid. And maybe the kid will grow up to be the ballerina they never
> were...
Now, I'd lay odds that you're dealing with the wimminfolk when hearing
about how worthwhile everything is. Sit with the men. Without the
women around. My Hubby gets together with the new daddies now and
then, and when they've had a beer or two, it comes out that the
sacrificies... well, they kinda suck. And the joys are brief and
sporadic. And there's a fair amount of regret. The sunny-happy faces
come out again when they go home, and hang out with the mommies, but
believe me, no matter what anyone is telling you, there *is* regret.
And the whole "ballerina they never were"? Is sad. You know that -
it's there in your writing. And what's sadder - that you didn't
become a ballerina, or that not only did you not become a ballerina,
but you gave up the fun ballet class you took at the Y so you could
have a kid, who's a clumsy mess and really really wants to be a
Medieval Literature major and hang in the library all day?
> I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs old,
> single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged. I have a
> cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much trouble.
At 33, you've got time to think. So think. Don't panic yet.
But since you're asking for actual *advice*, and you're here in a CF
newsgroup, here's my advice: Take the dog for a few really good long
walks. Join a gym/cooking class/softball league/community theatre.
Maybe look into mentoring or volunteering around disadvantaged youth.
But most of all, meet people. You can find people who will help you
fulfill yourself. You can find people who will help you not feel
lonely. Maybe you'll find a mate. Maybe that mate will have other
friends, and a family you'll join. Maybe that mate will help you
solidify whether or not you want to have and/or raise a kid. If not,
you'll have your friends, your more confident self, and a nice healthy
dog.
And no matter what happens, there will be some regrets. They're part
of life. But not having kids doesn't doom you to regretting that
fact. I grow less regretful every day, myself.
Good luck!
Renee
elizabeth
> Gwenhyffar Milgi wrote:
>
> > I have no children and no regrets.
>
> > And even so, is it not better to regret not having had them, than to
> > regret having had them?
>
> I don't see how one regret is any better than the other.
Uh . .. it's far worse, because you've added to the casualty list.
Women who regret having a child tend to be miserable, and their misery
spreads to everyone around them, ESPECIALLY THEIR CHILDREN.
I had a friend in grade school, very gifted, intelligent girl, whose
mother was fond of reminding her that she, my friend, "destroyed" her
mother's life, and "I could have done so much with my life if I hadn't
had you"
If you are willing to subject a child to such a future, then be a
stupid cow and spew a cuntnugget.
> I understand
> that once I have one (there is really no question of multiple
> children) I can't put it back, but I can't pluck one out of the air in
> twenty years' time either when I'm old and all alone in the world.
Dearie, there are *plenty* of women who had children who are alone in
the world. Some, because their children haven't the time for them,
and one thing is for sure, if you had children and regretted it, they
won't regret dumping you.
There are plenty of people in the world who can keep you from
loneliness, and it's the ultimate in selfishness to breed a child, in
this overpopulated world, to keep yourself from being "lonely".
You know that there are literally *millions* of children who are alone
in the world, and if in the future, you wish to contribute to the
world, WHY NOT TAKE CARE OF ONE OF THOSE CHILDREN WHOSE MOTHER
REGRETTED, OR BASICALLY SHOULDN'T HAVE HAD THAT CHILD?
One thing for sure, you are as daft and as self centered as any
breeding sow out there.
CFers, let's get a pool going on how soon this aussie sow spews
ozpiglets.
Phil Carmody
> Annie wrote:
[SNIP - thoughts]
> Children deserve to be wanted wholeheartedly.
> If you don't know if you do, don't.
Frame that.
Childfree Abby
****Delivers a Standing Ovation******
Well spoken, Tom!!
Phil Carmody
> Among other things, why did a 33-year-old woman hear from a fert doc
> that it's "now or never?" There are some few medical complications that
> could fit- offhand, I think of endometreosis.
The first thing that went through my mind was that this
was private practice, not a national health service, and
simply that he'd get another wodge if he did another one.
Rabbit
> that once I have one (there is really no question of multiple
> children) I can't put it back, but I can't pluck one out of the air in
> twenty years' time either when I'm old and all alone in the world.
>
No, but in twenty years' time, you can make friends. Go to a nursing home
and see how many folks in there sit and wait for their children to visit ...
and they never do.
Having a child will guarantee that you're a parent, but it's absolutely no
guarantee that you'll be a parent whose children come around to visit.
Rabbit
Rabbit
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
>
Well, duh. If he worked in a butcher shop, chances are good he wouldn't meet
too many vegetarians. What other kind of person will he get coming into an
IVF clinic, but those longing for children?
This guy's dumb as a box of rocks, if you ask me.
Rabbit
Rabbit
> But when I am old they will all be busy dying and losing their marbles
> - right when I need them, selfish bastards.
>
Well, then, play auntie to their children. Chances are they'll be more
willing to come see you in the nursing home than they will their own
parents.
Rabbit
queen...@cox.net
out yet another resource-guzzling twat-monster and still say I care
about the planet? <<
Annie, I think your answer is right there.
- Maedb
Annie
No 33 Secretary wrote:
>
> So, you're so emotionally damaged that you are incapable of finding
> a significant other?
No, it's just that men tend to be arseholes. That's why I don't see
being single as an issue. Even if I gave birth in wedlock, there is an
overwhelming likelihood that the useless prick would piss off anyway,
so what's the difference?
Millenium Hand&Fish
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
>
> want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
As others have pointed out, he's a biased source.
> I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs old,
> single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged. I have a
> cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much trouble.
I would like to suggest a thought experiment. Consider that your
fertility window has closed and you cannot bear a child. Further
consider that, if you wanted to adopt, you would pass all the hurdles
and be able to. Do you want to adopt? Now?
If you do, go ahead and have your child. If you don't, or think maybe
later, don't have a child now because you don't really want one now.
MH&F.
Annie
intentioned folk. A couple of you sound like 24 carat sociopaths, but
I guess that's what you've got to expect here.
One thing I've noticed is a great deal of cynicism and pessimism.
Everyone seems to assume it is inevitable I will fuck up my child's
life or end up bashing it to death. Or it will bash me to death.
I am guessing many of you had bad childhoods, which is why you don't
want to inflict the same experiences on any offspring. Which is fair
enough.
Others I think are or were just useless ungrateful turds of children
and expect their own children would turn out the same - rightly so I
guess.
It IS possible to have a child with whom you have a good relationship
and who grows up happy and well adjusted. Maybe some of you out there
never take chances just in case it all goes wrong. Yes it might. But
it might not. Everything in life is a gamble.
Last night I was talking to a friend and I told him my situation.
"I've gotta have a baby right now". He was just stunned. He said "in
all the years I've known you (about 7) I've never heard you say
anything about having a baby. You've talked about all the other things
you want to do in the future, but you've never mentioned a baby."
That got me thinking. Maybe if I was so fucking maternal I would have
had kids by now. Maybe the only reason I want it now is it is about to
be taken away from me.
The thought of not ever having a child fills me with terrible sadness
and a feeling of defeat in some way. Even so, it is possible that I
still don't want it enough to make it work.
Gwenhyffar Milgi
> Thank everyone who replied. Most of you sound like genuine well-
> intentioned folk. A couple of you sound like 24 carat sociopaths, but
> I guess that's what you've got to expect here.
>
> One thing I've noticed is a great deal of cynicism and pessimism.
> Everyone seems to assume it is inevitable I will fuck up my child's
> life or end up bashing it to death. Or it will bash me to death.
>
> I am guessing many of you had bad childhoods, which is why you don't
> want to inflict the same experiences on any offspring. Which is fair
> enough.
Yeah. Right. You know, I had a wonderful childhood. My parents worked
very hard to be the best parents they could be. I've lived all over the
world and had a childhood that very few can say they've had.
I STILL DON'T WANT CHILDREN!
So stop with the armchair psychology, because you don't have a clue what
you're talking about.
If you want advice or opinions from an audience, it is usually
considered counterproductive to insult your audience.
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you
were truly questioning whether or not you should have children. Instead,
I see bingo after bingo after bingo. You've really bought into the
picket fence, dog and two kids thing, haven't you?
Go on, have children. And then wait and see if they'll visit you in your
old age. Or better yet, go to an old people's home some time and see how
many of those people have their children visit them.
That'll be you.
EB
> Annie wrote:
> >Thank everyone who replied. Most of you sound like genuine well-
> >intentioned folk. A couple of you sound like 24 carat sociopaths, but
> >I guess that's what you've got to expect here.
>
> breeder bon mots like "for the joy a child brings those sacrifices are
> worth it." and 'Will I be unfulfilled as a woman if I don't have a
> child?" I was wondering about you.
>
<snip>
> I really hope you put your bitchy attitude down. You're venturing into
> territory that's gonna get you flamed to a crisp. You can clearly see
> that some of our attitudes toward parenting and having kids is not
> wrapped in the soft tissue paper, glowing orbs that parents couch
> their views - which I frankly see as mostly hormone driven,
> narcissistic, or in denial. We are a more scratchy, truth-driven group
> than parents are, and some of it looks ugly to you. If you can't
> accept that, then go ahead and breed. You can then tell your fellow
> parents that you were on the fence but, gosh, the CF world contains
> some really nasty people and, of course, you didn't want to become one
> of THEM.
Other than Pete response, this is one of the best replies I've seen in
response to Annie bingo'ing
responses. I think I've kinda lost interest when she still insist on
breeding without a husband or permanent
partner because "all men are assholes". Despite me saying how children
need two people.
Sure, if divorce or death happens, life moves on. But to oops or plan
to be a single parent is just a shitty thing to do.
Annie made up her mind. The problem is she just can't find someone to
breed with. If you were truly CF, there would be no doubt in your mind
about not raising children.
The part about the doctor was appalling. If she has no health issues,
there is no reason on earth he should be counseling her about having
kids, much less telling her "have them while you still can".
I guess I don't understand "being on the fence" when it comes to
wanting children. You either do or don't.
EB
h
"Gwenhyffar Milgi" <gwenh...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:47186df5$0$86020$dbd4...@news.wanadoo.nl...
> Annie wrote:
>> Thank everyone who replied. Most of you sound like genuine well-
>> intentioned folk. A couple of you sound like 24 carat sociopaths, but
>> I guess that's what you've got to expect here.
>>
>> One thing I've noticed is a great deal of cynicism and pessimism.
>> Everyone seems to assume it is inevitable I will fuck up my child's
>> life or end up bashing it to death. Or it will bash me to death.
>>
>> I am guessing many of you had bad childhoods, which is why you don't
>> want to inflict the same experiences on any offspring. Which is fair
>> enough.
>
> Yeah. Right. You know, I had a wonderful childhood. My parents worked very
> hard to be the best parents they could be. I've lived all over the world
> and had a childhood that very few can say they've had.
>
> I STILL DON'T WANT CHILDREN!
>
good job, got married, yada, yada, yada, and got fixed at 26 so I wouldn't
have to worry about accidents.
My parents retired to a sunny clime many years ago, but when my dad died,
mom, in her 80s, moved back to the frozen tundra to be near me and her old
friends. I see her at least once a week and we talk daily. She's a great
person and fun to be around. And you know what? I STILL HAVE NO REGRETS
ABOUT NOT BREEDING.
It's not "inevitable" that you would "fuck up" a child's life. It IS
inevitable that having a child you don't want will fuck up yours. That's all
we're trying to say. Don't have them if you're not 100% sure you really want
them. In the works of Ilene Bilenky, "Don't wanna, never gonna".
TMcLone
meb
> Among other things, why did a 33-year-old woman hear from a fert doc
> that it's "now or never?" There are some few medical complications that
> could fit- offhand, I think of endometreosis.
There's loads of skanky doctors out there who are into bullying, just
like the general population. An eye doctor told me when I was 24 I
better hurry and have k1dz or I would get breast cancer. Now there's an
incredibly stupid reason to have k1dz.
-Mb
Rabbit
> One thing I've noticed is a great deal of cynicism and pessimism.
> Everyone seems to assume it is inevitable I will fuck up my child's
> life or end up bashing it to death. Or it will bash me to death.
>
No, sugar, we're just giving you the other side of the story. You got the
sunshine and lollipops from your IVF buddy. Here we're showing you the cloud
without the silver lining. The reality is probably somewhere in the middle,
and it's your job to figure it out.
> It IS possible to have a child with whom you have a good relationship
> and who grows up happy and well adjusted. Maybe some of you out there
> never take chances just in case it all goes wrong. Yes it might. But
> it might not. Everything in life is a gamble.
Of course it is. My attitude is that it's a gamble I don't want to take.
There's always a possibility that I will regret a decision I make. The
difference here is that if I did have a child and regretted it, I'd take
that child down with me. That's not fair to me or the child.
It's obvious that your mind was made up from the start. Why, exactly, did
you even bother to ask us?
>
> The thought of not ever having a child fills me with terrible sadness
> and a feeling of defeat in some way. Even so, it is possible that I
> still don't want it enough to make it work.
>
Well, you do what you have to do. I can't imagine anyone so ambivalent going
headfirst into a situation that can never be turned around, but hey ...
people with baby rabies aren't known for thinking straight.
Rabbit
Pirate Queen
> Pirate Queen wrote:
>
> > Annie - the very fact that you don't see a problem with seriously
> > considering the opinions of anonymous punters suggests that you
> > probably should refrain from breeding.
>
> me biased opinions. My gyno gave me a biased opinion. My mother is
> giving me a biased opinion. I thought I would get more of a a variety
> of opinions here.
At least you recognize that there are other options. Good for you.
However, I am noticing an interesting trend in your responses to your
responders - namely, that when you do respond to people advising
against breeding, you always hit us up with a YABBUT. Maybe it's just
cultural conditioning on your part. I don't know you personally and
am only making judgements based upon the pixels on the screen.
Remember that.
> > Also: if you have no problem with describing sproggies as "resource-
> > guzzling twat-monster(s)", then I am guessing that there are some
> > other deeper issues which point toward choosing not to breed.
>
> Whether I call them twat-monsters or bundles of joy doesn't really
> indicate issues any deeper than being conflicted about motherhood.
Really? Seriously?
Are you telling me that the words you choose to describe things don't
reflect your feelings toward them?
Think a little harder, Annie, take a step outside of yourself a
moment, and be honest this time:
Who do you imagine would REALLY be a better mother - someone who
refers to children as bundles of joy or someone who refers to them as
twat monsters?
For godsakes, Annie, don't be so obtuse. Remember this is going to
affect at least TWO lives here - maybe more in the case of multiple
births.
> > A lonely, isolated, financially-challenged woman in rural Australia is
> > probably not the best candidate for Mommyhood; but hey, that's just my
> > own opinion. Do what you will.
>
> I'm not lonely right now. I have plenty of friends. (Mostly breeders).
> But when I am old they will all be busy dying and losing their marbles
> - right when I need them, selfish bastards.
Okay, my bad interpretation. You have a FEAR of being lonely, you
aren't lonely now. Got it.
So...what make you assume that the human being(s) you birth will be
around in 20 years? Are you psychic? Are you willing to gamble
another human life against your own fear of something that may never
come to pass? That's pretty retardedly selfish in my book.
> Also I don't necessarily see how not rolling in cash is a barrier to
> motherhood. People just scab off the government to finance their
> children. John Howard keeps bleating on about how important it is for
> us to have a child "for the country" - surely he won't mind paying for
> it.
HE isn't paying for it. Every one else who is paying taxes is paying
for it. You DO realize that, right?
In a sense you are right; one can raise babies without cash. People
do it all the time in third world countries...and they are breeding
MISERY and HATE and FILTH and DISEASE as well.
But hey, if you have the honour of a common dingo - well, by all
means, go ahead and sponge off your fellow citizens just because you
feel entitled to the fruit of everyone else's labour to support the
fruit of your loins.
> > It's also my opinion that this post borders on fake-y fake-y, and
> > there's more to this poster's story than meets the eye.
>
> Exactly what the fuck is that meant to mean?
It means a number of things, including, but not limited to my own
suspicions that:
1) You are somewhat sincere, but you are already leaning toward
breeding. You just want to make a half-assed attempt before flushing
your life down the toilet to see what those who are opposed to
breeding might say to you since no one around your general area will
do it to your face.
2) You are a clever Australian Troll who is trying to stir up the pot
because:
a. You have already bred but regret it and are bored.
b. You enjoy arguing with people who are on the fringe.
I mean, c'mon Annie - the answer is so incredibly fucking simple: If
you have any doubts about having children - don't fucking have them.
T. - sometimes being supportive means smashing the clueless in a head
with a two-by-four
Miz Daisy Cutter
(in article <47177f55$0$47133$892e...@authen.yellow.readfreenews.net>):
> I'm in the trenches and replaced the rose covered glasses with fluid safe
> splash guards.
I agree that this is a sigworthy line -- indeed, I've pasted it into my
quotation collection -- but for the record, the expression is "rose-colored
glasses." (Or "coloured," for our British Commonwealth contingent.)
-- Daze
Miz Daisy Cutter
(in article <0t1hh3t2od7pj63om...@4ax.com>):
> Diagnosis: Sudden Onset of Baby Rabies.
> SOBR
Quite the ironic acronym, no?
-- Daze
Beth Cole
> I am guessing many of you had bad childhoods, which is why you don't
> want to inflict the same experiences on any offspring. Which is fair
> enough.
This made me chuckle.
My older brother & I had pretty much idyllic childhoods. I'm the
prototype for the US Midwestern Farm Girl[1]. He has 3 kids. I have
none. (I do have a cat on whom I lavish attention, but he's not a
child. There will be no college expenses for this one.) I like & love
my nieces & nephew, but that doesn't mean I need to produce one of my own.
> Last night I was talking to a friend and I told him my situation.
> "I've gotta have a baby right now". He was just stunned. He said "in
> all the years I've known you (about 7) I've never heard you say
> anything about having a baby. You've talked about all the other things
> you want to do in the future, but you've never mentioned a baby."
I've been described as highly maternal. More to the point, I'm a
natural caretaker & problem solver. I hate seeing problems sit and
fester. And yet, I still don't have kids.
If you're not someone that who has a strong desire to be a caretaker,
then please don't put yourself in a position where you'll be one for a
very long time. It isn't fair to the entity who needs the care.
I will say this: you've already put more thought into the decision than
most people do. The average person who reproduces puts more care into
their choice of socks each day than they do into bringing a child into
the world. Just that you're willing to put any thought into it says
that you're really not sure it is something you should do.
Beth
[1]I spent my formative years showing cattle at the county fair,
midwifing for barn cats, driving a tractor & climbing trees on a farm in
western Kansas. Most people who know me from work assume that I grew up
in the city, because of how I dress, speak & carry myself.
--
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you
nothing. It was here first. ~Mark Twain
ShichinintaiRox
laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:
> I'm not lonely right now. I have plenty of friends. (Mostly breeders).
> But when I am old they will all be busy dying and losing their marbles
> - right when I need them, selfish bastards.
Sheesh, how many times do we have to tell people NOT to have kydz so they
can "be with you in your old age"!?
> Also I don't necessarily see how not rolling in cash is a barrier to
> motherhood. People just scab off the government to finance their
> children. John Howard keeps bleating on about how important it is for
> us to have a child "for the country" - surely he won't mind paying for
> it.
Of course he can just go ahead and say that...HE IS NOT PAYING FOR IT! Your
fellow Aussies are PAYING for it with their TAX money!!!
Do you think tax money just appears out of the air? Or maybe on trees? Or
it's fished out of the ocean somehow?
Having a kid with the intention of living off everyone else's taxes is
disgusting, tacky, selfish, stupid, and downright and LAZY!!!
I do think you're a breeder waiting to happen, and this is absolutely the
most distateful and breederific post I've seen from you yet. You've had a
lot of more rational and interesting replies from CFers here, and you seemed
to have ignored every one of them.
If you decide to breed, DON'T ever whine about it. It was your decision.
Rox
Ilene Bilenky
Pirate Queen <crumsy...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> But hey, if you have the honour of a common dingo
Please do not diss the dingoes.
Ilene B
Ilene Bilenky
Annie <annpa...@myway.com> wrote:
> That got me thinking. Maybe if I was so fucking maternal I would have
> had kids by now.
Ya think?
Remember, it's not about "having a baby." It's about the next 18+ years
of your resources/time/energy/whatever going towards this other person.
It's not about how that person turns out or if you're best buds when
you're in the Sunny Rainbows Nursing Home. It's about now and now and
now.
Now, you did score some breeder bingo points by finding CF posters
negative and pessimistic and all. And no, there's no particular
correlation between having difficult earlier lives and being CF, in
fact, a whole lot of people with very fucked-up early lives often have
kids, and early, because they want to re-live it and get it RIGHT. (I
believe this falls under "Good luck and godspeed.")
However, your attitude about potential male partners certainly qualifies
as pessimistic, cynical, you-name-it. I ask sincerely, do you think you
want to have a kid so you can have a intimate personal relationship with
someone who can't leave for a long time, will be dependent on you, and
you can interpret this as love? Do you want a child to take care of
*you* emotionally?
I agree with those who have opined that you are quite likely to pop a
sprog soon, and for every bad reason.
Ilene B
ShichinintaiRox
laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:
> In article <1192720788.4...@i13g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
> "Jules W." <Jules...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Your relatives are not the only family you can have.
>
> Amen to that. Biologic family is a genetic blind date.
>
> I might well be alone as I get older, with hermit tendencies, single,
> and childfree. That has no bearing on whether I think I should have
> children.
> By the way, tubal at age 30. Twenty-four years later, not a twinge of
> regret, and I likely lost one great guy over the issue.
>
> Ilene B
I cannot help but to not even think of "great guys/women" that leave CF
people because of the whole not-breeding thing as not so "great" at all.
The whole thing seems to make "great" people entirely artificial. "I'll be
nice to you as long as you feed my ego and give me mini-mes". It's false
advertising. The "great"ness is just a means to an end. It has nothing
whatsoever to do with the significant other, and everything to do with the
offspring, and OLNY the offspring.
Rox
Annie
Pirate Queen wrote:
>
> 1) You are somewhat sincere, but you are already leaning toward
> breeding. You just want to make a half-assed attempt before flushing
> your life down the toilet to see what those who are opposed to
> breeding might say to you since no one around your general area will
> do it to your face.
>
Actually I was here under the mistaken impression that this was a
"support group" of some sort. I kind of knew from the start that the
whole baby thing isn't going to work out for me, but that thought
filled me with such sadness. I have been crying constantly and not
sleeping or eating. I thought if I came here I would see nice, normal
people who didn't have children who could say "there, there dear, it's
not so bad. I don't have children and I'm okay, you'll be okay too."
Surely some of you found the decision hard and experienced sadness
over it? Everyone says how wonderful motherhood is - maybe it really
is. Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
wonder that? You must have.
I thought someone might explain their choice and how they dealt with
the sadness that went with it.
I know deep down having a baby is a stupid idea. But it's one I really
needed to consider. I won't be happy if I just drift into
childlessness by default. It has to be a choice I consiously make and
embrace. Just at the moment I am still grieving though.
Some of you have been really nice and helpful. Some of you are
probably fundies with four children who just post nasty stuff to make
CFers look bad. Or maybe you are just bitter and if there is any
chance of me becoming like you then I'll be procreating before you can
say "cuntnugget."
Ilene Bilenky
Childfree Abby <morg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> and a child is not
> the "joy" that pro-natalist propaganda would have you to believe. What,
> exactly, are you going to do then? You can't, in the words of Ilene
> Belinky, shove it back up.
Good heavens. All these quotes. As much as I like the latter quote, I'm
pretty sure it came from Rabbit or someone else.
Pithy, all.
Ilene b
tom c
"Miz Daisy Cutter" <fe...@crawlspace.org> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C33E2D9E...@newsgroups.comcast.net...
freakin typo.
tom c
ShichinintaiRox
laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:
> Actually I was here under the mistaken impression that this was a
> "support group" of some sort. I kind of knew from the start that the
> whole baby thing isn't going to work out for me, but that thought
> filled me with such sadness. I have been crying constantly and not
> sleeping or eating.
Over not having a BABY!? Over a person who doesn't exist!? Over not being
able to endulge yourself by producing a "mini-me!?"
I'm sorry, but this newsgroup is definitely NOT for you.
> I thought if I came here I would see nice, normal
> people who didn't have children who could say "there, there dear, it's
> not so bad. I don't have children and I'm okay, you'll be okay too."
But you DID, and you seem to be very much enjoying yourself ignoring them,
and crying that you don't have a baby. This is NOT the place to cry over
not having a baby.
> Surely some of you found the decision hard
NO I did not.
>and experienced sadness
> over it?
NO.
> Everyone says how wonderful motherhood is - maybe it really
> is. Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
> wonder that? You must have.
I'll be honest. I do wonder...but I've worked in retail for the past ten
years, AND I have a degree in education. I have seen SO MANY reasons why I
would not EVER miss it, besides the dirty gross nappies that I won't deal
with, I thank Heaven above every day that I do not have children.
> I thought someone might explain their choice and how they dealt with
> the sadness that went with it.
The word you are looking for is "CHILDLESS", not childfree!
You don't seem to understand that the word "childfree" was coined in
opposition to the word "childless". We're not missing anything.. We are
not "LESS" anything.
I think you are a breeder, but are voluntarily childLESS. This is not the
place for you.
> I know deep down having a baby is a stupid idea. But it's one I really
> needed to consider. I won't be happy if I just drift into
> childlessness by default. It has to be a choice I consiously make and
> embrace. Just at the moment I am still grieving though.
If you are greiving, you are making a sensible decision not to breed. But
you are not CHILDFREE. You are voluntarily childLESS.
There is no handwringing grief in this newsgroup....especially, as you have
noticed, that many of us, myself included, have been voluntarily sterilized.
> Some of you have been really nice and helpful. Some of you are
> probably fundies with four children who just post nasty stuff to make
> CFers look bad. Or maybe you are just bitter and if there is any
> chance of me becoming like you then I'll be procreating before you can
> say "cuntnugget."
I am bitter. I have a lot of reasons for being bitter. If you go ahead and
procreate because I am bitter, or because you think they'll hold your hand
for you all day long when you're old, or you feel more than happy living off
everyone else's tax money, FINE...I'll be just as happy stubbornly digging
my nails in the ground, and patting myself on the back for not having
any....especially for the reasons YOU give.
Rox
EB
> Pirate Queen wrote:
>
> > 1) You are somewhat sincere, but you are already leaning toward
> > breeding. You just want to make a half-assed attempt before flushing
> > your life down the toilet to see what those who are opposed to
> > breeding might say to you since no one around your general area will
> > do it to your face.
>
> Actually I was here under the mistaken impression that this was a
> "support group" of some sort. I kind of knew from the start that the
> whole baby thing isn't going to work out for me, but that thought
> filled me with such sadness. I have been crying constantly and not
> sleeping or eating. I thought if I came here I would see nice, normal
> people who didn't have children who could say "there, there dear, it's
> not so bad. I don't have children and I'm okay, you'll be okay too."
Actually we did. The intial responses were VERY supportive. And we
tried to
give you clear and concise reasons why we don't have children and how
happy we all are for not having them.
You replied back with a series of YARBUTT's. After that we sort of
blanked out anything you had to say because it seems like you
disregarded everything we said and questioning OUR values for our
decisions.
>
> Surely some of you found the decision hard and experienced sadness
> over it? Everyone says how wonderful motherhood is - maybe it really
> is. Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
> wonder that? You must have.
>
Ok, focus. EVERYONE WHO HAS ANSWERED YOU HAS SAID WE DO NOT REGRET
HAVING CHILDREN!!!
> I thought someone might explain their choice and how they dealt with
> the sadness that went with it.
>
First of all, you never asked us to explain why we don't want
children, you ask for our opinion.
Once again, focus. WE DON'T HAVE ANY SADNESS ABOUT NOT HAVING
CHILDREN.
We are VERY happy about not having kids. This seems to not sink in,
why I don't know.
> I know deep down having a baby is a stupid idea. But it's one I really
> needed to consider. I won't be happy if I just drift into
> childlessness by default. It has to be a choice I consiously make and
> embrace. Just at the moment I am still grieving though.
>
First sensible thing you wrote. Alas, the only sensible thing you
wrote.
> Some of you have been really nice and helpful. Some of you are
> probably fundies with four children who just post nasty stuff to make
> CFers look bad. Or maybe you are just bitter and if there is any
> chance of me becoming like you then I'll be procreating before you can
> say "cuntnugget."
Whatever. If you think we are bitter because we don't have kids, knock
yourself out and fuck up your life and someone elses, that will teach
us a lesson. You'll just be another breeder that has a kid for the
wrong reasons. Thanks for stopping by.
PS. You are young, single, but for some reason you feel having a baby
might make you happy. I'd would seriously consider counseling. When I
was 32 and single, it was one of the happiest times of my life. I
certainly didn't spend nights not eatting or crying worrying about
fatherhood.
EB (kinda done with this thread)
ShichinintaiRox
laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:
>> Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
>> wonder that? You must have.
>>
>
> Ok, focus. EVERYONE WHO HAS ANSWERED YOU HAS SAID WE DO NOT REGRET
> HAVING CHILDREN!!!
The OP certainly has all the listening/reading/comprehension skills of a
breeder down pat......
<coal region>ain't, though??</coal region>
Rox
Beth Cole
> Actually I was here under the mistaken impression that this was a
> "support group" of some sort.
As I've been reminded several times over the years of my tenure here,
support isn't just a hug and a "there there, it will all be okay." Many
times, support is a smack across the back of the head and "You know what
the solution is, and whining or crying isn't it."
A good number of us were supportive in the first vein. An equal number
were supportive in the second vein. You'll quickly find that all of us
are likely moving to the latter with the way you're acting.
> Surely some of you found the decision hard and experienced sadness
> over it? Everyone says how wonderful motherhood is - maybe it really
> is. Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
> wonder that? You must have.
Hard? No. Something I thought about for a damn long time. You bet.
Am I missing out on something? Maybe. The only thing that gives me
twinges once in a while is when I see little kids' clothes in catalogs.
I want to buy them. Other than that, I've got a pretty damn full life
that I love. DH & I are in the process of buying our first house, and
we're trying to figure out how to decorate it. I don't have to worry
about making sure all of the rooms are small-child friendly.
>
> I thought someone might explain their choice and how they dealt with
> the sadness that went with it.
You're presuming that there was sadness. There hasn't been. (As an
aside, the surgery I had to stop the periods was the best thing I've
ever done for myself. In the last 10 months, I've had the most energy
of my life.)
I'm not even going to address your comment about fundies, because it was
so silly.
Only you can decide what you are going to do. But, whatever you do,
make DAMN SURE it is really what you want to do, and not something you
got to because it is what you think the world wants you to do. And, if
you aren't sure, don't make a decision that affects not just you, but
also another person who doesn't get a vote in the decision. If you
don't have kids, the hypothetical non-existent person can't regret it.
If you do have kids, the completely real person who results may well
regret that they lived.
Beth
tom c
"Annie" <annpa...@myway.com> wrote in message
news:1192780058.2...@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Thank everyone who replied. Most of you sound like genuine well-
> intentioned folk. A couple of you sound like 24 carat sociopaths, but
> I guess that's what you've got to expect here.
>
> One thing I've noticed is a great deal of cynicism and pessimism.
> Everyone seems to assume it is inevitable I will fuck up my child's
> life or end up bashing it to death. Or it will bash me to death.
>
> I am guessing many of you had bad childhoods, which is why you don't
> want to inflict the same experiences on any offspring. Which is fair
> enough.
Mine was rather bland actually, hardly mommy dearest. What I've posted has
come from what I've seen as
an EMT and RN. I've seen the spectrum of running the call were a friends two
year old drowned in an unguarded
swimming pool, to a child beaten to death by it's so called parents.
Watching my friend cradle her deceased child and
begging it to breathe, and knowing, no matter what we did we were already to
late before 911 was dialed
is still haunting. Receiving a beaten child and starting mouth to mouth
while carrying her from triage to resuscitation
is haunting in another way. Watching the killers cry because they knew
they'd gone to far is still maddening
years later. There are other war stories too. You don't need to hear them.
Hell it hurts to write this.
I have been told I would have been a great dad. Who knows maybe I would have
but I doubt it.
Why? Because If you do not want it whole heartly you will not excel. Period,
end of story.
For what ever reason, experiences, lack of motivation, whatever, I did not
want it. Had I had children,
ambivilance would have the best I managed. The child would sense that and it
would hurt - both of us.
Your writings express that ambivilance. And as I said previously the child
pays for that. No child deserves that.
>
> That got me thinking. Maybe if I was so fucking maternal I would have
> had kids by now. Maybe the only reason I want it now is it is about to
> be taken away from me.
>
> The thought of not ever having a child fills me with terrible sadness
> and a feeling of defeat in some way. Even so, it is possible that I
> still don't want it enough to make it work.
You must be certain, not for you, but for the innocent third party who has
no choice.
There is nothing wrong with seeking counsel on this to progress towards
certainty.
Again I say, choose wisely.
For what it's worth, I am 45 and am quite comfortable in my decision to be
child free.
I have the time to work jobs where I do more for kids in 10 minutes than
most breeders do in 80 years.
I volunteer time to my community. I have friends that are closer than
family.
As for the group, well usenet is the last frontier. It's wild and wooly and
the denizens of this group
have had a herd of rustlers lately. We tend to be defensive. If you need
kinder and gentler you may wish to go
web based where there are sheriffs to round the varmints and run 'em outta
town. I think AOL has a forum.
tom c
Terry Austin
@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
> No 33 Secretary wrote:
>
>>
>> So, you're so emotionally damaged that you are incapable of finding
>> a significant other?
>
> No, it's just that men tend to be arseholes.
So do women. It only takes one exception to not be alone.
> That's why I don't see
> being single as an issue.
You brought "being alone" up. Perhaps it's more of an issue than you
realize.
> Even if I gave birth in wedlock, there is an
> overwhelming likelihood that the useless prick would piss off anyway,
> so what's the difference?
>
Then why'd you bring it up?
--
Terry Austin
Beware the other head of science. It bites.
Terry Austin
@i38g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> Thank everyone who replied. Most of you sound like genuine well-
> intentioned folk. A couple of you sound like 24 carat sociopaths, but
> I guess that's what you've got to expect here.
>
> One thing I've noticed is a great deal of cynicism and pessimism.
> Everyone seems to assume it is inevitable I will fuck up my child's
> life or end up bashing it to death. Or it will bash me to death.
The chances if any of that happening increase significantly with a single
parent home.
>
> I am guessing many of you had bad childhoods, which is why you don't
> want to inflict the same experiences on any offspring. Which is fair
> enough.
>
> Others I think are or were just useless ungrateful turds of children
> and expect their own children would turn out the same - rightly so I
> guess.
>
> It IS possible to have a child with whom you have a good relationship
> and who grows up happy and well adjusted. Maybe some of you out there
> never take chances just in case it all goes wrong. Yes it might. But
> it might not. Everything in life is a gamble.
>
> Last night I was talking to a friend and I told him my situation.
> "I've gotta have a baby right now". He was just stunned. He said "in
> all the years I've known you (about 7) I've never heard you say
> anything about having a baby. You've talked about all the other things
> you want to do in the future, but you've never mentioned a baby."
>
> That got me thinking. Maybe if I was so fucking maternal I would have
> had kids by now. Maybe the only reason I want it now is it is about to
> be taken away from me.
>
> The thought of not ever having a child fills me with terrible sadness
> and a feeling of defeat in some way. Even so, it is possible that I
> still don't want it enough to make it work.
>
"Whenever there is any doubt, there is no doubt. That's the first thing
they teach you."
Terry Austin
> Everything in life is a gamble.
>
And the wise gambler knows the odds. Do you see a difference between
flipping a coin over who pays for dinner, and betting your life on a
million to one shot? If not, you're unfit to raise a child.
Ilene Bilenky
Annie <annpa...@myway.com> wrote:
> I have been crying constantly and not
> sleeping or eating.
May I gently suggest that you have problems that extend beyond whether
or not to have a baby RIGHT NOW? This sounds like flat-out clinical
depression, and it's not caused by your quandry about whether or not to
have a kid now. It's an illness. (Of course, a terrible time to make
major decisions or have a child...)
I thought if I came here I would see nice, normal
> people who didn't have children who could say "there, there dear, it's
> not so bad. I don't have children and I'm okay, you'll be okay too."
There, there, dear. I don't have children and I'm more than OK with it,
it's the one constant in my life that has never wavered or let me down
for one minute of 54 years. It's not only "not so bad," for me, there
was no other way to go.
>
> Surely some of you found the decision hard and experienced sadness
> over it? Everyone says how wonderful motherhood is - maybe it really
> is. Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
> wonder that? You must have.
Not here. Maybe some people have experienced sadness, but I haven't
heard it expressed in this group, and certainly never felt it myself. In
a 1960s sense of "having an experience," I believe that some people find
parenthood all of those extreme amazing etc. things. I believe it's
possible I might have missed that. I also believe it's entirely possible
that I wouldn't have had a shred of experience worth the trouble of
being a parent. My decision, if I'm missing something, I'm fine with
that. After all, we are always and currently missing everything we're
not doing or creating, and we seem to be fine.
Again, I suggest if you are constantly crying and unable to eat or
sleep, you are troubled by a lot more than a possible child decision.
You seem to have wrapped a lot of other issues into this- fear of being
old/lonely/pathetic, absolute derision and mistrust of a man as a loving
companion. Maybe your life is just spinning vaguely in its wheel casings
and you are depressed, lonely and feeling like you're getting nowhere.
(Maybe you *are* depressed and lonely and getting nowhere. Doesn't mean
you should have a baby).
I still think you are viewing a potential child as an (emotional)
lover/friend who will love you completely and forever. Besides that not
ever being true, it's absolutely a vile burden to put on a child. Do you
really want to be an emotional vampire?
Ilene b
Ilene Bilenky
"ShichinintaiRox" <r...@spamsucks.net> wrote:
> I cannot help but to not even think of "great guys/women" that leave CF
> people because of the whole not-breeding thing as not so "great" at all.
Let me clarify. He and I were never lovers/dates/whatever. We were
co-workers who spent most of three years together and work and in the
neighborhood. I have never had such conversations or such a feeling that
someone "has my back."
One of our first conversations was how I felt that having children ruins
women's lives and how much he wanted genetic children. (Interestingly,
my mother's life was a ruin with or without children, but I had to grow
up to see that. My friend was abandoned by his father and raised by a
marvelous older single mother).
Friend (let's call him JP) was 24, and I was 33 when we met. He was
living with a woman my age then. After they split up, during our
friendship, he went traveling and came back madly in love with a
20-year-old girl. It was incredibly romantic and such. They visited each
other for a year (while our friendship remained solid) then they moved
in together many states away. I fell off his radar screen, even though
at the end of our friendship, he'd said, "I hope that after ten years
with K, I'm half as intimate with her as I am with you." What's wrong
with this picture? I dunno. We were emotional intimates, not physical
ones. Was I attracted to him? I always said, "If JP were hunky, I'd be
in big trouble." But he was always with someone else, for one thing, and
I knew his big goal in relationship was children. It's like there was
this big stop sign from the day we met.
Flash forward many years. His hometown is flooded in Katrina. People are
online looking for him. I track his mother down, and she tells me that
he's rescuing people in a "found" canoe in New Orleans, after going
through a terrible two years following a vicious, bitter divorce from
K. One son, who he adored beyond belief. I called and he called back,
saying how marvelous it was to hear from me after these, oh, 13 years.
So he didn't dump me as a lover because I was CF. We were never going to
be in the first place. I do hope that, if/when his depression from
losses in 9/11, the divorce, and the flood eases, that we will again be
in touch. It's like a conversation that just never ended. And yes, he
really should be a father, as much as I really should be CF.
Hey, Juan, wherever you are...
Ilene B
Pirate Queen
> Actually I was here under the mistaken impression that this was a
> "support group" of some sort. I kind of knew from the start that the
> whole baby thing isn't going to work out for me, but that thought
> filled me with such sadness. I have been crying constantly and not
> sleeping or eating. I thought if I came here I would see nice, normal
> people who didn't have children who could say "there, there dear, it's
> not so bad. I don't have children and I'm okay, you'll be okay too."
Just because people don't support you the way YOU think you should be
supported doesn't mean that there was no support. You've got some
serious problems if you are crying every night and not sleeping or
eating.
My being "nice" and or "normal" has nothing to do with the fact that I
think you've got problems. If you think for one moment that I'm going
to commiserate with a person who thinks that she's special because she
is currently depressed and imagines that making a baby will make
things all better - welp...guess again. You're not special nor unique
on that front. You're behaving like a fool, and many of us aren't
interested in being your crying towel.
Do you want to know the simple reason why? It's because some of us
never, ever, ever wanted to have children. Ever. For some of us
(though not all), having a baby was never an option. Ever since I've
been sexually active, I've always used birth control religiously. I
knew in my heart that the second after I found out that the birth
control failed, I would be on the phone to the clinic to get an
abortion - one that I'd pay for myself.
I have THIS newsgroup in part to thank for giving me the courage to
get permanently sterilized in my early thirties. I never expected
anyone to pat me on the shoulder while I cried about how I didn't know
what I should do. I KNEW what I should do, but I was too chickenshit
in my 20s to do it.
> Surely some of you found the decision hard and experienced sadness
> over it? Everyone says how wonderful motherhood is - maybe it really
> is. Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
> wonder that? You must have.
Must have? No, never.
> I thought someone might explain their choice and how they dealt with
> the sadness that went with it.
You thought wrong. There is a BIG difference between being childless
and childfree.
Hopefully, you have learned that by now.
T. - not all lessons are candy-coated gumdrops
Annie
Pirate Queen wrote:
> It's because some of us
> never, ever, ever wanted to have children. Ever. For some of us
> (though not all), having a baby was never an option. Ever since I've
> been sexually active, I've always used birth control religiously. I
> knew in my heart that the second after I found out that the birth
> control failed, I would be on the phone to the clinic to get an
> abortion - one that I'd pay for myself.
>
Did you make that decision consciously or did you just have a hormonal
imbalance or something? I mean, if you were just born that way you
can't go getting all superior about how smart you are. Most people
have some desire for children. To override that desire for the sake of
making a rational decision is more difficult than not having the
desire at all in the first place.
ShichinintaiRox
laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:
> Pirate Queen wrote:
>
>> It's because some of us
>> never, ever, ever wanted to have children. Ever. For some of us
>> (though not all), having a baby was never an option. Ever since I've
>> been sexually active, I've always used birth control religiously. I
>> knew in my heart that the second after I found out that the birth
>> control failed, I would be on the phone to the clinic to get an
>> abortion - one that I'd pay for myself.
>>
>
> Did you make that decision consciously or did you just have a hormonal
> imbalance or something? I mean, if you were just born that way you
> can't go getting all superior about how smart you are.
Yes, she can, because there are many, MANY stupid people who clearly never
wanted to be parents and did it any way because that's what
society/religion/whatever expects of them, or they are just too damned lazy
to use birth control, or they think it's a thrill to take the chance of it
NOT happening, or they think it "can't happen to them", or some other dumb
nonsense.
Of course, there is more opportunity now than, say, fifty years ago to
voluntarily refrain from breeding. So I usually don't fault older
generations for this.
> Most people
> have some desire for children. To override that desire for the sake of
> making a rational decision is more difficult than not having the
> desire at all in the first place.
I agree. But your questions clearly demonstrate that this is NOT the
newsgroup for you. You are voluntarily childless, and will NOT find support
for your baby-focused handwringing here.
It was nice knowing you through your questions. Ta-ta, now.
Rox
Rabbit
> over it? Everyone says how wonderful motherhood is - maybe it really
> is. Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
> wonder that? You must have.
>
I've never wondered. It's not for me.
Rabbit
Pirate Queen
> Did you make that decision consciously or did you just have a hormonal
> imbalance or something? I mean, if you were just born that way you
> can't go getting all superior about how smart you are. Most people
> have some desire for children. To override that desire for the sake of
> making a rational decision is more difficult than not having the
> desire at all in the first place.
I was born that way, and I don't know how much or how little my
decision making process had to do with my hormones. I I started my
cycle younger than most (I was 10 years old), but it's always been as
regular as clockwork. Also - I never took birth control pills. I used
condoms. Lots of condoms. No condom, no entry. This strategy was
also beneficial because it helped protect against STDs.
I recognize that the default for most of humanity - most animals, for
that matter - is to breed. I recognize that *I* am not "normal" when
compared to my species, but I AM perfectly normal for myself.
Look at it this way: I'm fine with the way that I am. However, it's
your choice to interpret that as "getting all superior" about how
"smart" I am. I don't care what you think. Think whatever you want -
thinking is GOOD.
It's my opinion that you are agonizing over something that many of us
in a.s.c. don't experience: regrets over choosing not to breed. There
are other internet fora that may better provide you with what you are
looking for - a shoulder to cry on.
Sorry, Annie, but this Pirate Queen was born without a Maternal
Sympathy Chip. My Compassion Chip is probably defective, and I also
hate dogs and hippies. Oh, well.
I've got no more advice for you other than what I've said before: If
you have any doubts about having children, then you should NOT have
them.
T.
Fountain of Filth
> Did you make that decision consciously or did you just have a hormonal
> imbalance or something? I mean, if you were just born that way you
> can't go getting all superior about how smart you are. Most people
> have some desire for children. To override that desire for the sake of
> making a rational decision is more difficult than not having the
> desire at all in the first place.
Oh, please. You sound like my Moo with that "hormonal
imbalance" crap.
I consider myself an early articulator (I wanted a tubal at
6), but I did have a brief period of baby rabies when I was
20. Thankfully, I realized that becoming a Mom at that age
was a bad idea, and never stopped taking birth control, even
when I wasn't sexually active. (Hell, I took birth control
even when I was having sex with someone who was snipped.)
If you see all men as assholes, you shouldn't have a kid
unless you decide to adopt a girl. Misandry is not a good
trait to have when raising a boy.
I say get to the root of WHY you feel you should have a kid.
If it's all about you and your needs and fears, don't do it.
If you actually have the desire to take on the huge task of
raising a human being from scratch and EVERYTHING it entails
without the support of a partner... wait a year and see if
you still feel that way.
Oh yeah, and if you're prone to depression... factor in the
risk for post partum depression. My Moo had that BAD with
me, and it did fuck with our bonding process when I was an
infant. 32.5 years later, I can't stand her, and I'm only
polite to her out of respect for my Dad, whom I love dearly.
~FoF
--
"That's what the assholes do--
they make you do what they're doing,
'cause they're doing it.
And that is fucked up."
--Jihad Jerry
elizabeth
> No 33 Secretary wrote:
>
> > So, you're so emotionally damaged that you are incapable of finding
> > a significant other?
>
> being single as an issue. Even if I gave birth in wedlock, there is an
> overwhelming likelihood that the useless prick would piss off anyway,
> so what's the difference?
Just another reason why you should spew a piglet--you have a 50-50
chance of having a boy, and if you hate men that much, you will really
hate having to raise a boy, who will no doubt end up a sex offender.
You really should investigate suicide, not reproduction. Every post
you make demonstrates you are as stupid, greedy, and child-unfriendly
as most breeders, and are as self-deluded as they are.
elizabeth
> Thank everyone who replied. Most of you sound like genuine well-
> intentioned folk. A couple of you sound like 24 carat sociopaths, but
> I guess that's what you've got to expect here.
How typical. You ask for advice, then put down anyone who says
something you didn't want to hear. If you are looking for validation
of bad choices, GO TO A BREEDER NG. You will breed, you are too
fucked up and delusional not to. Dealing straight on with reality
isn't cynicism, dearie.
> One thing I've noticed is a great deal of cynicism and pessimism.
> Everyone seems to assume it is inevitable I will fuck up my child's
> life or end up bashing it to death. Or it will bash me to death.
>
> I am guessing many of you had bad childhoods, which is why you don't
> want to inflict the same experiences on any offspring. Which is fair
> enough.
And once again, you are demonstrating that you are as stupid as a
welfare sow with dozens of gangbanging piglets.
I had a very nice childhood, and realized that I couldn't give
children what I was given, because I'm not what my parents are, and
the world is now so overcrowded, it's too hard to give a child the
basics. That's why breeders are bleeding the nonbreeders dry -- they
have kids they can't afford, and expect "the village" to pay for
raising them.
You sound exactly like a sow in prison who was interviewed by dr
phil . .. she has munchausen's by proxy, buried one of her babies
alive, and denies she harmed her daughter, even though she was
videotaped trying to hurt her child IN A HOSPITAL.
She insists that when she's released, she will have children, "to fill
a void"
You are a breeder in waiting, and may your child make you pay for it.
Children shouldn't be used because you are a stupid cunt who can't get
a life and needs to create a need to fill.
Now kindly fuck off. You don't belong here, you never wanted "advice"
you just wanted people to confirm a really terrible life choice, that
a child will have to suffer for.
skyeyes
> Hi, my name's Annie, I'm new here and I need some help in making a
> very big decision so I am asking everyone their opinions, even
> anonymous punters in cyberspace.
Hi, Annie. I'm Brenda. I'm 58, divorced, childfree, and employed
full-time. A little over six years until I can retire, whoopee!!!!!
> I went to the gyno the other day and he told me that if I ever have to
> want to have children, I will have to have them right now or I will
> miss my chance. He then pointed out to me that if I didn't have
> children I would regret it deeply, and his experience working in an
> IVF clinic had shown him how much people long for children.
GET A SECOND OPINION. This doc might be like the one who tried that
on me when I was a dewy 21-year-old and my husband had just graduated
from college. The gyn I was going to was a Mormon, and he thought it
was time for me to start squeezing them out - hey, my husband had
graduated, why not? So this prick told me that I had a uterus full of
fibroids and would have to have a complete hysterectomy in a couple of
years, so I better have kids NOW!
Well, I didn't want kids, but that fibroid diagnosis bothered me, so I
took my Mom's advice and went to a different gyn, and guess what? No
fibroids. And the second gyn told me that I wasn't the first young
woman that Dr. Mormon had tried this con with.
So by all means, go see another doctor before you commit to anything.
> Most of my friends have at least one child and rave about how
> wonderful, worthwhile and enriching it is,
Well, of *course* they do. They've painted themselves into a corner,
haven't they? They can't just say, "Ooooops, I fucked up, don't do
what I did!" So they rave about how wunnnnnnerful it all is.
Believe me, it ain't that wonderful.
> and my mother also thinks
> it is great - (mainly I guess because I was her child and I would
> enrich anyone's life :) )
My mother thought motherhood would be great, too - until she had me
and my brother, and found out what a damned headache it all was. She
did her best, and we loved her, but she would have been *way* better
off being a childfree career woman. Unfortunately, that wasn't a
choice for her generation.
> I don't want to regret missing my chance to have children, on the
> other hand, I see many good reasons for refraining, and not stuff like
> not being able to party anymore or changing nappies. I don't party
> much as it is and nappies are no big deal and that age is over in a
> flash. And for the joy a child brings those sacrifices are worth it.
If you say so. I knew by the age of 11 that I had no business having
a child. If you think children bring joy, well, you've bought into
the myth that is The Script.
> Absolutely none of my childed friends actually sat down and made a
> conscious decision to have a child. In every case it "just happened".
Yeah, that's usually what happens. See, when you actually stop and
think about it, you generally find out that it's *not* such a good
idea.
> Not to say they don't love their children or make good parents, but
> they just didn't conciously decide to have them. I want my choice to
> be a real, considered, conscious choice, whether I do or not. I don't
> want to drift into childlessness by default, or motherhood for that
> matter.
Good for you. I wish there were more people who examined the
consequences and implications of parenthood before they fell blindly
into it.
> Reasons I would have a child include that I have no family. When my
> parents die, I will have absolutely no-one. No siblings therefore no
> nieces or nephews, no aunts, uncles, cousins - nothing. I will be one
> of those people who everyone feels sorry for at Christmas.
Well, except for the fact that I have a kid brother (hah! He's 50),
I'm pretty much in the same position as you are.
However, I don't seem to *mind* being without much family; I have a
perfectly wonderful time on my own. How are you with nobody around?
If you're able to be happy and content without crowds of people around
you, then don't have kids.
And don't worry about other people feeling sorry for you at Christmas.
Why do you care if the feel sorry for you? Do you feel sorry for
yourself? I enjoy Christmas thoroughly - atheist that I am - and if
somebody "feels sorry" that I don't have a bunch of kids to cater to
during that holiday, well, that's no skin off my nose.
> However, I feel that manufacturing a family member for myself is
> somewhat selfish,
And you're *absolutely* right about that.
> and it is statistically likely that the child will
> piss off to the far regions when it grows up anyway. (Especially
> considering I live in rural Australia!!)
Most children in western countries don't live anywhere near their
parents - and those who *do* frequently don't keep in touch with their
parents.
> Also I like children and feel I would make a good mother. But is it
> enough to feel that a child would be 'nice'? So would a lot of things.
That's a question only you can answer. I never felt that having a
child would be "nice." I felt like having a child would contribute to
overpopulation and further exacerbate the world's problems - and I
felt that way when I was in the 6th grade.
> And of course there is the environmental question. Can I really pop
> out yet another resource-guzzling twat-monster and still say I care
> about the planet?
No, you can't. So if you care about the planet - no, I mean if you
*really* care about the planet - then you won't produce another human
to further mess it up.
> Will I be unfulfilled as a woman if I don't have a child?
Well, I'm 58, well past menopause (thank christ!), and I certainly
don't feel that way. YMMV.
[I *do* wish somebody would clue me in about that "feel unfulfilled if
I don't have a child" concept. I think it's propaganda put out by the
mass media at the behest of governments who buy into that "growth at
any cost" nonsense, and who anticipate needing cannon fodder in the
future.]
> Do I have
> the right to create another human who will have the role of fulfiling
> me?
Er, my answer to that would be "no." Bringing another human into this
overcrowded, polluted, dangerous world *just to experience
fulfillment* is the ultimate act of selfishness, if you ask me.
(Which you did.)
> Is parenthood REALLY as worthwhile as people say it is,
Not from what I can see, no.
> or do they
> just say that because they have to gloss over the fact that deep down
> they wish they had done something else with their lives?
That's my theory, yes.
> It's no co-incidence that a person's fertility window begins to close at the same
> time they begin to realise that there are things they haven't achieved
> and never will, so maybe they like to take their mind off it by having
> a kid. And maybe the kid will grow up to be the ballerina they never
> were...
But there are fewer limits on what one can take up at any stage in
life than one is led to believe. The wife of F. Scott Fitzgerald,
Zelda, apparently decided at around [from memory] age 38 that she
wanted to be a ballerina, and took up the study of ballet. Apparently
she wasn't half bad at it, by all reports.
> I'm confused. Thoughts anyone? FYI my situation is: I am 33 yrs old,
> single, employed but still somewhat financially challenged. I have a
> cat and a dog who I manage to care for without too much trouble.
If you're financially challenged with only yourself and a couple of
pets to care for, you'll struggle mightily if you decided to breed. I
don't know what the statistics are about Australia, but here in the
States, it costs between $750 and $1000 PER MONTH to support a newborn
properly, depending on where in the States you live. And the cost
just goes up as the kidlet gets older and requires more resources and
more *expensive* resources. So you need to do some *serious*
financial planning if you decide to whelp.
Good luck with your decision.
Brenda Nelson, A.A.#34
skyeyes at dakotacom dot net
Phil Carmody
> On Oct 19, 3:59 pm, Annie <annpater...@myway.com> wrote:
> > Surely some of you found the decision hard and experienced sadness
> > over it? Everyone says how wonderful motherhood is - maybe it really
> > is. Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
> > wonder that? You must have.
>
> Ok, focus. EVERYONE WHO HAS ANSWERED YOU HAS SAID WE DO NOT REGRET
> HAVING CHILDREN!!!
/me gives EB an extra 'NOT'.
Explicitly for Annie - I do not regret:
a) thus far not having children (I'm mid-30's)
b) finding myself a long-term partner who also does not want children
(mid 30s also)
c) deciding that in the future I do not want any children, and that
means the whole future, not just the near future.
In fact more than that -
I probably don't go a *single* day without at least once thinking
how happy and lucky I am to not have children. Of course, it's
not 'luck' at all, it's design.
So I'm really about as far from your "must have" as it's possible
(for a bloke) to be.
Phil
--
Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all.
-- Microsoft voice recognition live demonstration
tom c
"ShichinintaiRox" <r...@spamsucks.net> wrote in message
news:3s4Si.6$Y23.4@trndny04...
>
> <coal region>ain't, though??</coal region>
>
>
> Rox
>
>
tom c
"Pirate Queen" <crumsy...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1192819234.8...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>> Sorry, Annie, but this Pirate Queen was born without a Maternal
> Sympathy Chip. My Compassion Chip is probably defective, and I also
> hate dogs and hippies. Oh, well.
I'm allergic to dogs. To bad I don't have a hippie allergy.
Tom C
Annie
wanting children. Sort of like being gay. (I don't mean that as a
slur. I see being gay like having red hair. Not as common as brown but
still not abnormal in any way).
I even read that while the urge to have sex is natural, the urge to
actually reproduce is only created by cultural conditioning, not
biology. Don't know if that's true or not, but an interesting theory.
But whether it is as a result of nature or nurture, I feel some sort
of desire to have children. I don't see how that automatically makes
me intellectually or morally inferior. How I ultimately RESPOND to
that feeling and my reasons for it may, yes, be dumb or smart or
selfish or altruistic. But having the feeling itself?
I now realise that no, I may not be in the right place. While it is
comforting to hear that many of you have no regrets about your
choices, it also seems that you had no difficulty making that choice
and naturally will not be able to relate to someone who is having a
problem with it.
I honestly didn't realise that some people are simply devoid of the
desire to have children, and assumed that anyone who didn't have a
child must have really agonised about it or been forced into that
choice by circumstance or whatever. I, obviously, was wrong. Maybe
I've read too many copies of Family Circle or something. I'll wear the
"stupid" tag on that one.
It has never been a sensible time for me to have children. I had a
long illness in my late teens/early twenties, then was working my arse
off in the advertising industry, then I had a severe bout of
wanderlust and hung around the north coast until I joined a (you
probably guessed it) hippie commune. Got RSI from picking hazelnuts,
got bored not having a real job, moved inland and bought a house,
started working at the local paper... It's just never been a good
time. While I've always had that urge, I've always been aware enough
to realise that it wasn't a good time and was therefore scrupulous
about contraception. I knew if I accidentally got pregnant I just
could not have an abortion, so I was careful to prevent it.
Now it's still not a good time. I'm not sure it will ever be a good
time. The only logical, rational decision, and in the best interest of
any future child, is to refrain from having one. But facing that
reality does my head in. It really hurts like fuck. That's what you
guys don't seem to understand. Only now am I beginning to see why you
don't.
I want to be strong and make the firm decision not to have a child.
Maybe even get my tubes tied just in case. But I want to be happy
about that decision, and all I feel is sorrow.
Yeah, I know what you'll say... Get over it, get a life, go fuck
yourself, go find a forum that will pander to your self-pitying
wallowing you dumb breeder sow...
tom c
>
> Now it's still not a good time. I'm not sure it will ever be a good
> time. The only logical, rational decision, and in the best interest of
> any future child, is to refrain from having one.
That is the altruistic point. Because it is the child who suffers if it's
wrong.
> But facing that
> reality does my head in. It really hurts like fuck. That's what you
> guys don't seem to understand.
Which hurts more - your desire, or the consequences for the child?
> I want to be strong and make the firm decision not to have a child.
> Maybe even get my tubes tied just in case. But I want to be happy
> about that decision, and all I feel is sorrow.
But if you have a child and are ambivalent or worse resentful, the pain you
feel now
will be a walk in the park in comparison. You must be one hundred persent on
board, or
the child, you, and the father will all feel like damaging pain. Could you
handle causing that?
>
> Yeah, I know what you'll say... Get over it, get a life, go fuck
> yourself, go find a forum that will pander to your self-pitying
> wallowing you dumb breeder sow...
>
No, all I will say is, it is ultimately your decision - choose wisely.
tom c
EB
Annie,
First sensible response I've seen from you.
I'm beginning to understand why you posted.
No, this newsgroup is not for you, however, I not going to tell you to "get
over it"
A rule of thumb though. If you going to post to a newsgroup, it might pay to
lurk a bit
and even read some of the back messages.
I've came to this group to be with like-minded folks. For years I've had
family and friends
ask me "Why don't you get married, why don't you have kids?"
When I did get married, it was immediately "when are you going to start a
family."
My mother constantly kept asking me about when was she going to be a
grandmother.
This group help me deal with these assholes that felt it was their
god-giving right to make comments on my life
and bingo me into breeding.
Your situation is totally different. You want to have children. This is
quite evident, yet your situation, such as not having a parner, not having a
good source of income, not having a large family unit, and living in an
isolated area, is preventing you from doing so. But, you still want to have
children. It is a yearning you have.
Fine.
You gotta do, what you gotta do to be happy in life. Have your child out of
wedlock. Raise him/her on your own. I don't think it's a good idea, but I'm
not you.
You have been given and incredible amount of good information and opinions,
yet you seem to still "feel what you feel."
You seem to using a bit a passive agression in you final bit of your post:
"I want to be strong and make the firm decision not to have a child. Maybe
even get my tubes tied just in case. But I want to be happy about that
decision, and all I feel is sorrow"
It's comments like that, in this forum, that will upset people.
It gives the meaning "You guys are right, I shouldn't have a kid. I do what
you say and be miserable for following your advice for the rest of my life."
I can't tell you what to do. It seems like you want guidance here and there
is none. We can only give you our experience about being childfree and how
it has greatly rewarded our lifestyles. If you are looking to hear ONE story
about how we regretted not raising children, it's not going to happen. Not
in this forum.
I don't consider myself "devoid of the desire to have children", I am
devoid of the having responsibility raising another human 24/7/52/18+. It is
something I do not want to do.
I don't want to do the birthdays, the driving around, spending money and the
constant discipline of another human being.
I look at one co-worker that tell me about having to go home after a 10
shift and drive his son to a hockey match or another worker tell me she has
to sit through her daughter piano recital when all she want to do is go home
and sit in a tub.
I hear a co-worker complain it took his son 3 hours to wash the dishes and
how he constantly has to go to school and pick him up from the principal
office.
I hear how a father has a daughter not speaking to him. She angry at him for
some reason or another, yet he is still for paying her college education.
I see a sleep deprived female co-worker because her infant baby cried all
nite. She tell me she hasn't had more than 4 hours sleep in months.
Annie, I could tell you horror stories about how I seen first hand child
abuse growing up. Sexual, physical and mental.
When I was eleven, we had neighbors with 11 kids. One was in care. He was
about 5 years old. This kid use to come into our house and sleep in our
closet, Why? Because my mom looked like his mom and he thought that's where
she lived. The kid's mom use to lock him in the closet, so that's were he
would go and sleep.
Do people plan to abuse their kids? Probably not, but some can't handle the
day-to-day stress of it and lose it because they have children in less than
idea conditons to begin with.
I know nothing I say or anyone says here will make you not do what you are
yearning to do. All I am saying is having a kid is not about you. It's about
the kid.
Good luck.
EB
EB
"Phil Carmody" <thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:874pgme...@nonospaz.fatphil.org...
> EB <rickb...@hotmail.com> writes:
>> On Oct 19, 3:59 pm, Annie <annpater...@myway.com> wrote:
>> > Surely some of you found the decision hard and experienced sadness
>> > over it? Everyone says how wonderful motherhood is - maybe it really
>> > is. Maybe I'm really missing out on something? Did any of you ever
>> > wonder that? You must have.
>>
>> Ok, focus. EVERYONE WHO HAS ANSWERED YOU HAS SAID WE DO NOT REGRET
>> HAVING CHILDREN!!!
>
> /me gives EB an extra 'NOT'.
Thanks Phil...typo there!!!
EB
Phil Carmody
> I want to be strong and make the firm decision not to have a child.
> Maybe even get my tubes tied just in case. But I want to be happy
> about that decision, and all I feel is sorrow.
It's entirely possible to remain childfree without mutilating
ones body. Don't mangle your innards if you're not entirely
sure you want to do it. At the moment you are far from sure
and appear to be considering the option solely such that you
never have to consider it again, and almost as a punishment
to yourself. I don't view that as healthy.
ShichinintaiRox
laid the foundations of future communication by writing this:
> So he didn't dump me as a lover because I was CF. We were never going
> to be in the first place.
Oh, I see. There is a difference between a friendship with no attraction
and dumping someone because they're CF.
To me he just seems definitely not like a "one-woman" kinda guy, but
definitely a "one-kid" kinda guy....as in he seems to pick awful women for
himself, but has the kids anyway despite the horrible women. I can't wrap
my head around it all, as that's a typical breeder behavior, and I won't
try.
But hey, at least you weren't dumped!!
Rox
Annie
Omixochitl wrote:
>
> Now the trick is to gradually learn how to own and revel in that decision.
Yes! That is such a good way of putting it. That's what I thought I
was going to achieve here.
Unfortunately that seems to include taking ghoulish delight in
sensational media accounts of child abuse and spitting venom at any
person who dares to even consider having a child.
I don't want to turn into an intolerant, judgemental harpy. I just
want to be happy with being childless. (After my sojourn here I don't
know if I want to adopt the term 'childfree'. It would seem to imply
hating children. And possibly dogs and hippies. Hippies fair enough,
but dogs?)
I talked to some friends, got some sleep and ate something reasonably
substantial. Today I went into town and looked around at all the
babies and felt sad but still convinced it wasn't necessarily a good
idea to have one.
I thought back to my younger city-dwelling days. I was an activist
involved in Amnesty International, Animal Liberation and the
Democratic Socialist Party. These interests sort of fell by the
wayside in the absence of like minded people when I moved up here,
which I now realise is pissweak on my part, especially in the age of
the internet. Maybe I should re-activate the passion I felt for some
of my old - or new - causes. It's highly likely that will be more
fulfilling and rewarding than watching infomercials at 3am with an
infant sucking my tit.
Maybe instead of feeling so sorry for myself I should be thankful I
have enough brains to think about what I'm doing instead of skipping
blindly down the path of "maternal instinct". Maybe it is the road
less travelled and may be a bit thorny and overgrown at first, but it
could possibly be more rewarding. And just because some (and probably
a small minority in reality) people on that road are nasty pieces of
work doesn't mean I will necessarily turn into one myself.
I've always been pretty independent. This is the time I have to really
draw strength and and comfort from deep within myself. It's hard.
Thanks to those of you who genuinely tried to help.
Ilene Bilenky
Annie <annpa...@myway.com> wrote:
> Maybe instead of feeling so sorry for myself I should be thankful I
> have enough brains to think about what I'm doing instead of skipping
> blindly down the path of "maternal instinct".
Yes, you should. A thinking person, not just following the crowd
(although I gather "the crowd" is increasingly not having kids...)
Of course, if you really have some desire to be with children, there are
many many ways you can spend time with them and contribute to their
lives without birthing one that takes up all your time. There are people
who hold and socialize abandoned babies newborn nurseries. A friend of
mine reads to kids in the pediatric ER an evening a week and gives them
books- often the first book they've ever had. In the U.S., there are Big
Sister programs to mentor girls. On and on.
I still wonder about the parts of your agonizing that are pure
speculation- being alone at Christmas and being pathetic, being old and
lonely, etc. I don't see that as part of "maternal instinct" but as
other parts of loneliness. And certainly I hear a great deal of
depression in your description of crying, not eating/sleeping. In
depression, you tend to THINK that some issue is causing the terrible
feeling (in your case, childlessness) but in reality, the depression is
causing the thinking. Really.
People with kids will tell you, "There's never a good time to have kids,
just do it." They are, however, less likely to say that if you are not
with a male partner.
Ilene B