out-of-control sproglets
KIRAMISH
other day, minding my own business while going down the isles, what to
disgusted eyes should appear but not one, but FOUR little sprogs running amok.
Not to fault them, because the "responsible" adult mommee following a far
distance away looked tired and, typically low-class, could not be bothered. As
they swerved near me, I warned them to be careful and made sure SHE heard my
very audible tsks-tsks. Well, they shut up but the bimbo responded with a loud,
"It's not so easy when ya have four, ya know!". I couldn't resist answering her
with, "So, who told you to have four? Why the hell didn't you stop at one and
quit while you were ahead?" At that point, she started hissing and puffing like
crazy, while I took immense pleasure in ignoring her while I went along my
merry way.
ItzJMP
:::clapping wildy:::::: Now you know why dh hates to go to the stores with me
LOL
Jo
----------------------------------------------
Preferred EMail: STFan <at> gateway <dot> net
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ICQ#28654348
ileneb
threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on. Fer
chrissake, it's not required that everyone work at an office job, and I
remember the little hoo-ha we had over someone asking "Am I the only one
here with *just* a bachelor's degree"?
Ditto with the "fancy place" series of jokes, as funny as they were. Not
*everyone* has the life experience of certain kinds of restaurants,
including the all-important knowledge of wine.
This is classist shit. And I'm very tired of it. My parents live in a
trailer because they cannot afford anything else. Many very bright people
I know have 'gasp' NO college. (Frankly, I think it produces more asswipes
than educated thinkers). And I am just plain tired of equating one's
"place" in society with breeders. Whatever happened to BrandonDylan and
yuppiescum?
Ilene B "steamed"
In article <19990118055749...@ng-ba1.aol.com>,
kira...@aol.com (KIRAMISH) wrote:
.. because the "responsible" adult mommee following a far
> distance away looked tired and, typically low-class, could not be bothered..
Snow Lynn
>I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
>threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on. Fer
is classist shit. And I'm very tired of it. My parents live in a
>trailer because they cannot afford anything else.
I don't blame you for being upset. I hate this sort of elitist language myself
because when we engage in this sort of thing, we are no better than the
breeders who mock our "barren" status. My cousin is an engineer who chose for
many years to live in a trailer so she could save money to build a new house.
She liked it there and never did move out of the trailer while she was married.
As for the college degrees, unless you go to graduate school in a field which
will earn you a lot of money, it's worth very little. I have a Master's degree
and, though I have a very good job, I am certainly not making a killing. I
have friends who never went to college but are making a killing by making use
of their talents, i.e. landscaping, etc. I worked for many years as a legal
secretary because the salary for those so called "college-level" jobs were no
match of those of working with big law firms. I think Ilene is right and we
need to ease up a bit.
Larisa Migachyov
:ILENE:
I think we need to ease up on the insults, period. I'm sick and tired of
the juvenile Angi-bashing, name-calling, and other such behavior.
Frankly, a lot of us are behaving just like the spoiled brats that we
criticize.
--
Larisa Migachyov http://www.stanford.edu/~lvm
----------------------------------------------------------
They sought it with thimbles, they sought it with care;
They pursued it with forks and hope;
They threatened its life with a railway-share;
They charmed it with smiles and soap.
Dave & Roo
>I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
>threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on. Fer
>chrissake, it's not required that everyone work at an office job, and I
>remember the little hoo-ha we had over someone asking "Am I the only one
>here with *just* a bachelor's degree"?
>Ditto with the "fancy place" series of jokes, as funny as they were. Not
>*everyone* has the life experience of certain kinds of restaurants,
>including the all-important knowledge of wine.
>This is classist shit. And I'm very tired of it. My parents live in a
>trailer because they cannot afford anything else. Many very bright people
>I know have 'gasp' NO college. (Frankly, I think it produces more asswipes
>than educated thinkers). And I am just plain tired of equating one's
>"place" in society with breeders. Whatever happened to BrandonDylan and
>yuppiescum?
>Ilene B "steamed"
I can only speak for myself and not other posters, but if I have ever
posted anything in this vein (such as the "fancy places" thread) I was
also poking fun at myself. I was poor growing up, and my parents
still are...I work in an office now, but I have worked in the service
industry for many years, doing everything from waitressing (in a
"fancy place" like Woolworth's or Friendley's, that's how I got my
first hand experience of what a "fancy place" is) to working at
Wal-Mart. I don't have a bachelor's degree, I went to a technical
school so that I could change careers...I am trying to make up for the
lack of a bachelor's degree by gaining practical experience at a work
place, albeit at a lower pay scale then if I had been able to attain a
bachelor's degree. My husband was a fast-food restaurant manager for
many years, and for a few years we lived in a trailer. We clip
coupons to save money , and enjoy "blue collar" entertainment such as
going to pro wrestling shows.
I guess my point is that a sense of humor has gotten me through many
difficult situations in life...for example, I can talk about what
makes a restaurant a "fancy place" in a sarcastic manner, but in
actuality, I would probably be uncomfortable eating in a truly "fancy
place." I like what I like, and do not apologize for what I like,
even if I recognize that my tastes might be considered "low-brow" by
some.
And as for equating intelligence with income or educational level,
anyone who does that is truly foolish. My father (who works at
Wal-Mart) and my sister (who works at a grocery store) are two of the
most intelligent people I know who do not have college degrees, and
their secret is that they read everything that they can get their
hands on. They can converse with just about anyone on any subject,
and are always informed on current events. Many of the people I work
with do have degrees, and although some are super-intellingent in
their area of expertise, many of them lack the real life experiences
that make for a rounded person.
I do not appreciate if someone is making fun of something in an effort
to make people feel inferior, but I wonder if a lot of people on this
newsgroup might be like me and are joking about certain situations
becuase they truly do understand, and are not looking from the outside
in?
Roo
cinnamontoast
Roo wrote:
<snip wonderful ditty about education and intelligence>
: I do not appreciate if someone is making fun of something in an effort
: to make people feel inferior, but I wonder if a lot of people on this
: newsgroup might be like me and are joking about certain situations
: becuase they truly do understand, and are not looking from the outside
: in?
*Raising Hand*
As a housewife (career free since 1998!) who drank a bottle of really good
wine on Saturday night and then had dinner at K-Mart on Sunday night, I can
honestly say that I make fun of myself also. I laughed like crazy at the
"fancy place" thread.
K-Mart has great fries, what can I say?
I like both *worlds*. I just can't tolerate intolerant attitudes from
either side.
I loved eating at the *Water Club* - a fancy place in NYC. I sometimes
walked there from my job in Alphabet City - nasty, rough neighborhood in
NYC where I worked. For me it all evens out.
Hey, Roo - Are you from upstate NY?
cinnamontoast
Dave & Roo
>I like both *worlds*. I just can't tolerate intolerant attitudes from
>either side.
I agree with you 100%. We live near the Finger Lakes and enjoy the
winery tours, but I have to admit that we encounter a lot of
"pretentious" people (not the owners, I am speaking of the patrons)
but we do not allow this to ruin our enjoyment (in fact, it is usually
amusing to us as we eavesdrop, and we laugh about it on the way home).
By the way, going to wine tasting is a great CF activity, I haven't
encountered any sprog yet.
>Hey, Roo - Are you from upstate NY?
Yes, I am originally from Watertown but now live in Syracuse. My
husband is from Saranac Lake.
>
>cinnamontoast
>
cinnamontoast
Roo wrote
: I agree with you 100%. We live near the Finger Lakes and enjoy the
: winery tours, but I have to admit that we encounter a lot of
: "pretentious" people (not the owners, I am speaking of the patrons)
: but we do not allow this to ruin our enjoyment (in fact, it is usually
: amusing to us as we eavesdrop, and we laugh about it on the way home).
: By the way, going to wine tasting is a great CF activity, I haven't
: encountered any sprog yet.
: Yes, I am originally from Watertown but now live in Syracuse. My
: husband is from Saranac Lake.
Hail from the other side of the Finger Lakes!
Wine tastings are a great CF activity. As are beer tastings and cigar
samplings.
:)
All can be equally fun or snobbish. DH and I also have a good laugh at the
snobbish attitudes on the way home.
I have been to the wine tastings on the east end of Long Island (talk about
snobbish), but I have never been to any here.
I have to dig out my NY Winery guide and see what's up in Jan. and Feb.
cinnamontoast
Ron Sullivan
>
> I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
> threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on.
Oh, YAY, hooray, hear, hear, what she said. There's an odd
idea that seems to surface now and then that having lots of
kids is inherently a poor person's hobby, in spite of
considerable evidence to the contrary. (There's also the
corollary that somehow the besprogged rich aren't costing
the rest of us anything - on the same ng where complaints of
disappearing solitude, just for one instance, are common
enough. A new set of overdone and overpriced toys for each
iteration of Little Ritzfahrt costs plenty in resources
that, guess what, aren't infinite after all."'Cause I can
pay for them" is NOT a good reason to pop 'em out - ever
heard of externalized costs?)
Having lots of kids can _make_ you poorer than you would've
been otherwise - and that's one good reason not to do it -
but most of the poor (or broke) people I know have one, two,
or no kids.
>Fer
> chrissake, it's not required that everyone work at an office job, and I
> remember the little hoo-ha we had over someone asking "Am I the only one
> here with *just* a bachelor's degree"?
Well, lessee, I have one of those, and an LVN (license long
expired, thankgawd) and probably some cert or other in
landscape hort that I never bothered to pick up cause I was
too busy doing the work, but the hardest "degree" I ever
earned was the specialized tree work I learned in private
from my beloved and revered tree teacher, who did _not_ let
any of his students call him "sensei." Some of us felt he
was entitled to it. Some of us felt he had his priorities
right. None of us got letters after our names.
Of course, I live in Berkeley, where half the pumpjockeys
are Sanskrit scholars.
Funny: I just posted a rant on a topic close to this on
<booga-booga!> alt.polyamory. Maybe it's in season.
ron, cutting herself off now because dinner's on the way
>
RxAmy
>newsgroup might be like me and are joking about certain situations
>becuase they truly do understand, and are not looking from the outside
>in?
>
*Waving from my apartment*
I'm DEFINITELY on the inside of this one. DH is one of the Unmentionable's
"blue-collar" people - an auto body technician. After working for another shop
and doing side work for fourteen years, he opened his own shop a little more
than a year ago, and although business is very good, the expenses are still
high (typical for a new business, of course) - thus there is very little in the
way of disposable income. It'll change eventually, but right now he has to
pump money into the business. As for myself, I have an AA in biological
science - no higher, but not because of any lack of intelligence or drive.
Because of complicated family and financial circumstances, I had to wait until
I was 24, and thus "independent" financially of my parents, to go to college.
I attended classes full time and worked two jobs while in school, and still
finished my AA in three years with a 3.98 GPA (I had a 4.0 until my last
semester when I pulled a B+ in the second half of organic chemistry). I'm the
first member of either side of my immediate family to attain any college degree
whatsoever, so, frankly, I'm damned proud of this degree, even though in itself
it's not worth much of anything. I'd love to be able to finish pharmacy
school, but as it stands, I can't (eventually I'll rant about how married CFs
are treated when they apply for financial aid) - thus, I work as a tech for
hands-on experience, for the insurance benefits and for a dependable income to
back up DH's income (as anyone who has ever been self-employed knows all too
well, it tends to be feast or famine). Neither of us are professionals,
neither of us hold advanced degrees - but we are both intelligent,
well-informed people, not "trash."
>And as for equating intelligence with income or educational level,
>anyone who does that is truly foolish.
Hear, hear!
Now, let's all play nice!
RxAmy
"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food,
and tyrannize their teachers." - - -Socrates.
"A graceful taunt is worth a thousand insults."- - - Louis Nizer
"Why buy shampoo when real poo is still free?" - - - Unknown
E l i s e
>I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
>threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on. Fer
>chrissake, it's not required that everyone work at an office job, and I
>remember the little hoo-ha we had over someone asking "Am I the only one
>here with *just* a bachelor's degree"?
Agree with you completely, Ilene (yes, I've only a B.A., and a lame-o
conservatory-issued one at that).
>Ditto with the "fancy place" series of jokes, as funny as they were. Not
>*everyone* has the life experience of certain kinds of restaurants,
>including the all-important knowledge of wine.
>This is classist shit.
Agree with you on #2; disagree on #2. The latter, I thought, was to
illustrate that kids don't know their asses from their elbows when it
comes to restaurants, and to illustrate that KIDS are better off (and
the adults as well) when they are taken to less fancy places. Rich
kids as well as those of lesser means.
Elise
Dorothea Salo
(E l i s e ) wrote:
> Agree with you completely, Ilene (yes, I've only a B.A., and a lame-o
> conservatory-issued one at that).
*eyes bug out*
What is "lame" about a conservatory degree?
I took some music courses at Indiana University while I was there,
and let me tell you they were *tough*! I can't imagine music theory
courses being any *easier* at a conservatory...
Dorothea
(argh! another parallel fifth!)
--
Dorothea Salo <*> | High Priestess of Mung
dorothea(at)terracom.net |
http://www.terracom.net/~dorothea
C&S Marta
forgive me. ;-)
>> >I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
>> >threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on. Fer
>> >chrissake, it's not required that everyone work at an office job, and I
>> >remember the little hoo-ha we had over someone asking "Am I the only one
>> >here with *just* a bachelor's degree"?
I think it's Ilene.
Anyway, here's my take on the whole "trash" thing.
"Trash" like "class" is about attitude, not money. (See Swan's rant on the
subject of class.)
Donald Trump is trash. I wouldn't cross the street to spit on him. Mother
Teresa (regardless of her stance on contraception - we're each entitled to
an opinion) was a lady deserving of great respect.
Their worth as people has nothing to do with how much money they have, or
what kind of education they have, but how they treat the people around them.
So, somebody letting children make an unholy mess in a public place is
trash, and I don't care if Mommee is wearing a diamond tennis bracelet or
fuzzy slippers.
Cristabel. My dad is a carpenter. My baby brother is an auto mechanic. I'm
proud of them both.
E l i s e
Salo) wrote:
> What is "lame" about a conservatory degree?
>
Oh, the music content ain't lame, Dorothea. It's the *liberal arts*
quotient that is.
Maybe not at a place like Oberlin, but certainly at the Berklee
College of Music in Boston! The music education there was great (very
practical, too --- they pride themselves on being something of a
"musical trade school" as opposed to an impractical, ivory-tower kind
of place).
Elise
cookie
evidence seems to suggest that poverty causes kids, not visa versa.
What is the mechanism?
There is overwhelming evidence, gathered over many years, that the lower
a woman educational attainment, the more likely she is to both start her
family at a younger age and to have more children. This has been shown
to be true for many different countries or cultures. In fact you can
search for these scientific abstracts on the internet: keyword
childbearing. So, I guess the question is this: is there any
relationship between a woman's educational attainment level and the
total family income? Is there a relationship between educational
attainment and income in general? Numerous studies demonstrate that
higher educational attainment is statistically linked to higher income
level.
Sociologists have attempted to answer the question: Why do women with
low educational attainment marry at a younger age and then proceed to
have more kids. They postulate that the women require financial support
and are unable to provide it for themselves. The marriage then becomes
an economic arrangement and these women actually have little control
over their reproductive choices. I'm not sure if I buy this part. Why
do the men who choose these women want them to have lots of kids?
Wouldn't that just place additional burden on the husband? Maybe the
kind of men who choose these women like the idea of controlling them
financially. Maybe having the women saddled with kids and thus unable
to get a job or go back to school gives these men a sense of power.
It has been demonstrated that in countries where elementary school
education was denied to girls, the birth rate was high. When education
became mandatory for girls as well as boys the birth rate dropped.
Also some people may be poor because they don't value money as highly as
some others might. Some may be poor because of unfortunate life
circumstances. Some may be poor because they place very low value on
education. Why would someone place a low value on education? It is
possible that some people place a low value on education because they
find school work difficult and they dislike it. Maybe they think
compared to studying, breeding is easy. Maybe they don't think. In any
case current studies in the US show an inverse relationship between
parental (especially maternal) educational level and family size.
Colleen Condron
<ma...@shaw.wave.spam.ca> wrote:
>
>Anyway, here's my take on the whole "trash" thing.
>
>"Trash" like "class" is about attitude, not money. (See Swan's rant on the
>subject of class.)
>
>Donald Trump is trash. I wouldn't cross the street to spit on him. Mother
>Teresa (regardless of her stance on contraception - we're each entitled to
>an opinion) was a lady deserving of great respect.
>
> Their worth as people has nothing to do with how much money they have, or
>what kind of education they have, but how they treat the people around them.
>
OOO, ooo, that's SO well put! I was always taught that behaving
in a "classy" manner had nothing to do with money or one's social
class. Class is just....well, class. There are TONS of wealthy
people who aren't classy, Trump among them.
Colleen
Rat & Swan
>
> I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
> threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on. Fer
> chrissake, it's not required that everyone work at an office job, and I
> remember the little hoo-ha we had over someone asking "Am I the only one
> here with *just* a bachelor's degree"?
OOPS! sorry, I'm also to blame. Since I *do* come from poor Ozark,
Tennessee gen-yoo-wime po-folks, I am laughing at myself as much as
anything.
I have a picture of the house my grandma was born in (a treasured
heirloom... the picture, not the house) and trust me, it was a
squatter's shack! I am as ready to take a chunk outta the backsides of
the poor as of the rich. I have seen both sides and lived both lives
and a LOT of the stereotypes are true!
Some of the names in my family..
Beulah, Verne, Mildrid, Junior, Royale, Ransom, Sarah (or Sairy), Zeke
and Liney.
Pretty hillbilly names, eh? So I'm sorry if I offended you... I didn't
mean to.
Swan
"Where the CF's speak only to Astors... and the Astors speak only to
God!"
ileneb
"fancy places" to "go to the salad bar" and people started making jokes
about what some hick (or schlub, or trailer trash etc.) would consider the
hallmarks of "a fancy place". I think it lost the kid focus real early and
made fun of people who don't know what a "real" fancy place would be.
Ilene B
In article <36a5410d...@news.tiac.net>,
ely...@nospamnothanks.tiac.net (E l i s e ) wrote:
C&S Marta
I wrote:
>> Their worth as people has nothing to do with how much money they have, or
>>what kind of education they have, but how they treat the people around
them.
Then Colleen wrote:
>OOO, ooo, that's SO well put! I was always taught that behaving
>in a "classy" manner had nothing to do with money or one's social
>class. Class is just....well, class. There are TONS of wealthy
>people who aren't classy, Trump among them.
>blush<
Thank you.
Just for he record, I live in a trailer park. :-) Mind you, with townhouses
that remind you of Beirut (burns in the carpet, holes in the walls) at $90
000, this isn't a bad alternative. I do wish we had splurged and got the
fireplace, especially during our recent cold snap.
Cristabel. Why on *earth* did one of my classmates see fit to bring her 12
year old son to a baby shower? One who told really foul jokes, too? Yuck.
CatWoman
] I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
] threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on. Fer
] chrissake, it's not required that everyone work at an office job, and I
] remember the little hoo-ha we had over someone asking "Am I the only one
] here with *just* a bachelor's degree"?
] Ditto with the "fancy place" series of jokes, as funny as they were. Not
] *everyone* has the life experience of certain kinds of restaurants,
] including the all-important knowledge of wine.
] This is classist shit. And I'm very tired of it. My parents live in a
] trailer because they cannot afford anything else. Many very bright people
] I know have 'gasp' NO college. (Frankly, I think it produces more asswipes
] than educated thinkers). And I am just plain tired of equating one's
] "place" in society with breeders. Whatever happened to BrandonDylan and
] yuppiescum?
Thanks, Ilene.
I don't *think* I'm all that under-bright (though there
are days I wonder about myself), and I don't have a
college degree. Damn good paying job, however. But I
also live in a Mobile Home (cf Trailer, and Trailer Park)
because I can *afford* it, *AND* because it's in the area
of my county where I can have my cats without being
restricted by City Limits.
Diana
Steve/Beth George
<ma...@shaw.wave.spam.ca> wrote:
:
:Anyway, here's my take on the whole "trash" thing.
:
:"Trash" like "class" is about attitude, not money. (See Swan's rant on the
:subject of class.)
:
:Donald Trump is trash. I wouldn't cross the street to spit on him. Mother
:Teresa (regardless of her stance on contraception - we're each entitled to
:an opinion) was a lady deserving of great respect.
:
Exactly. I have a friend whom many would describe as nouveau riche.
I admire the fact that he earned his money himself, had I his money, I
would also spend part of it on good wine and good food.
However, one night, people were discussing champagne, and he commented on
the "swill that some people think is drinkable" naming the vintner (which,
IMO, makes a pleasant, very-good-for-the-$10-a-bottle-price, champers).
Well, guess what someone within earshot was planning to serve at his
wedding? Yup, Maison Swill!
Bully that my friend (he has many good points, really) managed to develop
a discerning palate, but very, very sad that his oh-so-classy tongue can't
engage to his brain before it flaps.
Whether one prefers Veuve Clicquot or Jimmy-Bob's Sparkling Grape-Flavored
Beverage, announcing that all other preferences are those of swine
bespeaks more of one's trashiness than the preference itself.
--Beth
Larisa Migachyov
:>
:> I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
:> threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on.
Same here. I don't see how social class has anything to do with anything.
I looked at a book of Russian names once, and discovered that I descend
from a serf - about as low-class as one can go. My great-grandfather on
the maternal side was a farmer. My grandmother worked in a warehouse, and
had no college education (because all her money went to putting her sister
through medical school). So what? I have a fancy engineering education,
but I still don't know how to repair a car - and have nothing but respect
for those who do.
Stupidity, alas, has nothing to do with social class; and I have seen too
many stupid rich people to place any importance in the color of one's
collar or the contents of one's wallet.
E l i s e
kristen...@REMOVESPAMBLOCK.dartmouth.edu (Kristy Bronner) wrote:
>The vitriol against the invaders, I think, is causing people to shoot off
>any insult they can think of, and we're hitting each other in the crossfire.
>It's very painful to watch.
>
Absolutely, Kristy! Hey, folks, it would be one thing for the
reg'lars here to piss eachother off by dialing up the scattershot
insult quotient if it actually *worked*. However, I don't believe
that the "slash'n'burn the trolls" approach *has* been proven to work
--- and meanwhile, we've got another approach (*complete* troll
starvation, i.e., NO responses to trolls, NO HOW) which hasn't been
given a fair group-wide shake.
We've already apparently lost Rebecca and Aaron --- that alone is
enough to drive me to tears, since Rebecca is a fellow infertile CFer
and is very dear to me in particular for that reason alone. I also
received an email from Pete this afternoon (actually, to me and
several other regulars) suggesting that if he viewed the current state
of affairs as representing a "lack of dedication" to the newsgroup.
Pete, come ON, man. I am *no* less dedicated to this group than you
are simply because I conduct myself here a bit differently.
Furthermore, I am completely in support of your right to flame away as
much as you like. All I am doing is *questioning the EFFICACY* of
this approach as a method of cutting down on trolls. We all KNOW that
flaming trolls lowers the blood pressure of the flamer (at least
temporarily). But the blod pressure of the group at large? No.
Particularly not in the long run --- for instance, I know I get very
testy when I have to quickly "browse" through posts instead of being
able to take the time to think them through (particularly when 50% of
them are troll-related BS), and the former situation has just been
escalating and escalating lately. The situation of late has made
a.s.cf a less tenable place for many of the old-timers, the regulars
--- i.e., the keepers of the lore, y'know? Those of us who maintain a
consistent "NG culture", if I may be so pompous. If lots of the
regulars are unhappy, and (as Pete pointed out in his email) the
newbies are trading insults at each other as well as at the trolls, I
really think there is no way we can be on the right road.
I say again: If the "complete troll strangulation" method had been
given a decent airing in the past (i.e., attempted in good faith for a
decent period of time) and had failed, I'd be singing a different tune
now. But AFAIK, it has not been tried (at least successfully) in
recent history, so we have no idea if it will work --- but ANYTHING
will work better than what's going on now.
Elise
Rebecca and Aaron, please reconsider!
Noel M Fong
:>I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
:>threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on. Fer
: I admit it's unfair. I'm not sure how exactly one can refer to the kind of
: people generally thought of in that way--I guess low class is the only way
: to really say it accurately, because you can be high or low class in any
: income bracket, whether your house has wheels or not. Maybe we could all
: just use the phrase "Low Class Trash". There are perfectly fine people
: whose houses have wheels!
I think more the problem is that some folks think it's bad, or somehow
immoral to be poor in this culture. Of course that's not true. Being
poor is simply being poor.
Noel
Renee
Migachyov) wrote:
>:ileneb wrote:
>:>
>:> I am getting a little weary of the multiple references in different
>:> threads to "trailer trash, low-class, blue-collar" and so on.
>
>Same here. I<snip>
>
>Stupidity, alas, has nothing to do with social class; and I have seen too
>many stupid rich people to place any importance in the color of one's
>collar or the contents of one's wallet.
>
I think (believe) thta *most* people think of "class" in the way
Cristabel described it. As a behavior, not a quantity of money or
social status. When I say "low class", I do *not* mean "poor". I mean
*anybody* who picks their nose in public, clips their nails on the
subway, is rude or condescending, and so forth. I suppose "the lower
classes" refers to wealth and social position, but "what a low-class
boor" or "what a classless idiot" can refer equally to Donald Trump
(as Cristabel suggested), as to someone of "lower class".
Blue-collar as an insult, however, is stupid. Blue collar is merely a
designation of employment type, not of intellect, "class" (of either
sort), or even education. To insult for being "blue-collar" is truly
"classist", in the "social status" sense of the word.
I'm more torn on "trailer trash". To me, that doesn't mean "anyone who
lives or has lived in a trailer". To me, it means "the type of people
who go on Jerry Springer". But I do recognize that to someone who
*does* or has lived in a trailer, it seems far more pointed. Someone
who was offended, wouldn't get an argument from me.
Renee
Warning: Keep out of reach of children. They're really, really annoying.
Martin / Christine
Noel M Fong wrote:
> I think more the problem is that some folks think it's bad, or somehow
> immoral to be poor in this culture. Of course that's not true. Being
> poor is simply being poor.
>
> Noel
UNLESS such an individual insists on pumping out a houseful of kids they are
incapable of supporting. Then it becomes society's problem. It becomes my
problem. I do consider it bad and immoral for others to not give a shit about
anything but their "right" to bring kids into the world, even if someone else is
going to have to pick up the tab for their upbringing.
Chrstine
ileneb
completely and describe trashy *behavior*.
Maybe I'm too sensitive about language but it *means* things. Similar to
the discussion of "white trash" people- implying that you have to specify
if the trashy folk are white, implying that black=trash unless otherwise
specified.
After all, what are "low-class trashy people"- certain regional accents?
Polyester clothing? Vacant look? How many ways are there to run down
people without "stuff" or appearance who *in addition* are acting trashy?
If the momee was wearing Armani would it make her "high-class trash?"
Ilene B "class the last glass ceiling to be noticed"
Amy Gale
> Actually it started out as a riff on Angi, who said she only gets up
> in "fancy places" to "go to the salad bar" and people started making
> jokes about what some hick (or schlub, or trailer trash etc.) would
> consider the hallmarks of "a fancy place".
I started it, but I truly did not intend it to make fun about any
group of people. Well, maybe I did want to poke fun at what Angi said,
but mostly I hoped I would get lots of responses and be able to imagine
them in "fancy" context and laugh.
I don't think people would have laughed, or participated for that
matter, if they weren't able to reach inside their own experiences and
pull out the places with breadsticks, crayons, jukeboxes and
everything else.
At this point, I'm torn. I do want to apologise to anyone who was
hurt by what I started, and I know that the lack of intent doesn't
help. On the other hand, I still don't believe I or anyone else
should have to have our Eat At McDonalds Sometimes credentials
verified before we are allowed to laugh at "one picks one's nose with
one's pinky". I laughed like crazy at the thread and never thought
about trailers once.
Amy
ian_...@msn.com
ile...@nii.net (ileneb) wrote:
> And what about "high class trash"? Maybe we could skip the labels
> completely and describe trashy *behavior*.
> Maybe I'm too sensitive about language but it *means* things. Similar to
> the discussion of "white trash" people- implying that you have to specify
> if the trashy folk are white, implying that black=trash unless otherwise
> specified.
> After all, what are "low-class trashy people"- certain regional accents?
> Polyester clothing? Vacant look? How many ways are there to run down
> people without "stuff" or appearance who *in addition* are acting trashy?
> If the momee was wearing Armani would it make her "high-class trash?"
> Ilene B "class the last glass ceiling to be noticed"
>
And I thought it was only us Brits who were supposed to be class-conscious! I
always believed the US prided itself on being a classless society.
Assuming you do accept that the US has classes, how would you define them?
What signs would you look for? Do you consider it to be mainly a matter of
money, or of things like style, attitudes, accent, ancestry and behaviour?
I just wonder if the term "middle-class" really means anything these days. I
mean, to qualify as "middle class" in Britain at one time you'd have had to
have not just the right job and income but the right sort of education,
accent, furniture etc. Nowadays, though, an ever-increasing proportion of
the population is in white collar jobs, and therefore seems to qualify as
middle class irrespective of whether people have regional accents, polyester
clothing etc.
I've always been fascinated in the subject of class. Maybe it's my sociology
background.
Janet
As a
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
molly
:
: And I thought it was only us Brits who were supposed to be class-conscious! I
: always believed the US prided itself on being a classless society.
Well, we *do* tend to believe we are a classless society. But it's mostly
self-deception; America most assuredly DOES have classes.
: Assuming you do accept that the US has classes, how would you define them?
: What signs would you look for? Do you consider it to be mainly a matter of
: money, or of things like style, attitudes, accent, ancestry and behaviour?
This is a very complicated question. I can reccomend a book called Class:
A Guide Through the American Status System by Paul Fussell - it's
hilarous and quite informative. Several other people here have also
suggested it in the past.
:
: I just wonder if the term "middle-class" really means anything these days. I
: mean, to qualify as "middle class" in Britain at one time you'd have had to
: have not just the right job and income but the right sort of education,
: accent, furniture etc. Nowadays, though, an ever-increasing proportion of
: the population is in white collar jobs, and therefore seems to qualify as
: middle class irrespective of whether people have regional accents, polyester
: clothing etc.
It's not necessarily income or material possessions, though they are good
indicators. It's more attitude than anything else. Do you prefer beer
(supermarket brands, not that fancy microbrewed stuff) to mixed drinks or
wine? Football to golf? Pictures with funny or inspirational sayings to
framed art? If so, you're middle class (or lower).
:
: I've always been fascinated in the subject of class. Maybe it's my sociology
: background.
Me too - you'll love the book, unless you actually are trying to acheive
some sort of class status. Then you'll just be insulted.
Molly
--
http://www.busprod.com/molly/me.html
Er, no. *Axial tilt* is the reason for the season.
Kari Whittenberger-Keith
ian_...@msn.com wrote:
> In article <ileneb-2001...@xcom16.nii.net>,
> ile...@nii.net (ileneb) wrote:
> > And what about "high class trash"? Maybe we could skip the labels
> > completely and describe trashy *behavior*.
> > Maybe I'm too sensitive about language but it *means* things. Similar to
> > the discussion of "white trash" people- implying that you have to specify
> > if the trashy folk are white, implying that black=trash unless otherwise
> > specified.
> > After all, what are "low-class trashy people"- certain regional accents?
> > Polyester clothing? Vacant look? How many ways are there to run down
> > people without "stuff" or appearance who *in addition* are acting trashy?
> > If the momee was wearing Armani would it make her "high-class trash?"
> > Ilene B "class the last glass ceiling to be noticed"
> >
>
> And I thought it was only us Brits who were supposed to be class-conscious! I
> always believed the US prided itself on being a classless society.
>
Well, actually I think that US classes are simply "compressed"--Americans tend to
see themselves as
either lower middle, middle middle, or higher middle. Within that range, people
tend to see lots
of distinctions.
>
> Assuming you do accept that the US has classes, how would you define them?
> What signs would you look for? Do you consider it to be mainly a matter of
> money, or of things like style, attitudes, accent, ancestry and behaviour?
>
Yes. I think a lot of it is money, but we (Americans) also tend to make
judgments about
ourselves based on our background (I know lots of academic types--a relatievly
high
status occupation--who still see themselves as lower middle/working class because
those
are their roots, and they refuse to acknowledge that they now occupy a somewhat
priviledged
position in society.
At the same time, I think many of us judge others based on regionalism/accents,
especially
when the region/accent is the south or is rural. Having lived most of my adult
life on the edges of the South
(Texas and Kentucky), it's amazing the stereotypes people have in other regions
(it's been particularly
interesting moving to the Northwest from Kentucky--the prejudices are
remarkable).
>
> I just wonder if the term "middle-class" really means anything these days. I
> mean, to qualify as "middle class" in Britain at one time you'd have had to
> have not just the right job and income but the right sort of education,
> accent, furniture etc. Nowadays, though, an ever-increasing proportion of
> the population is in white collar jobs, and therefore seems to qualify as
> middle class irrespective of whether people have regional accents, polyester
> clothing etc.
>
I guess in the US it means even less, since we all tend to id ourselves as some
form of
middle class.
>
> I've always been fascinated in the subject of class. Maybe it's my sociology
> background.
>
> Janet
Me too. I did my dissertation on 100 years of American etiquette, where issues
of class
are central and very complex for all the superficial simplicty (after all we're
"classless").
Kari
Rabbit
>
> It's not necessarily income or material possessions, though they are good
> indicators. It's more attitude than anything else. Do you prefer beer
> (supermarket brands, not that fancy microbrewed stuff) to mixed drinks or
> wine? Football to golf? Pictures with funny or inspirational sayings to
> framed art? If so, you're middle class (or lower).
> :
Ah, those things are what them what don't know use as a yardstick. The REAL giveaway
is the black velvet Elvis.
Rabbit
arie...@hotmail.com
>
> And I thought it was only us Brits who were supposed to be class-conscious! I
> always believed the US prided itself on being a classless society.
>
> What signs would you look for? Do you consider it to be mainly a matter of
> money, or of things like style, attitudes, accent, ancestry and behaviour?
>
I read somewhere that society in the US is actually more stratified in the US
than it is in Britain. However, we seem to have a broad definition of
"middle class." A college professor who lives in a reasonably nice house is
"middle class" as is a high school educated gas station attendant who lives
in a trailor park. However, if you asked people if they were in the same
"class," they would probably say no. There is no cut and dried way to
determine class, but people in the US are very class coscious. One only has
to look at the number of people who drive SUVs, live in the suburbs, and shop
at Baby Gap (except, of course, anyone on this newsgroup).
Ariel
cinnamontoast
molly wrote:
: This is a very complicated question. I can reccomend a book called
Class:
: A Guide Through the American Status System by Paul Fussell - it's
: hilarous and quite informative. Several other people here have also
: suggested it in the past.
<snip>
: Me too - you'll love the book, unless you actually are trying to acheive
: some sort of class status. Then you'll just be insulted.
I read that book. It was really good. My reaction was torn, though. I
grew up in a lower middle class farming community. I married into an upper
middle class suburban family. The book made me feel as if I didn't really
belong in my DH's family and insulted to boot. I know that was just my own
irrational reaction - Many times when I am with his family I feel as if I
*don't belong.* There are a lot of times when he doesn't feel as if he
*belongs* with the people that I grew up around. My own reaction to the
book was cause for a bit of introspection. Anybody who wants a good lesson
in how they really feel about class should read it.
c-toast
elsworth
Rabbit wrote in message <36A7A6BF...@hotstar.net>...
>>
>
>Ah, those things are what them what don't know use as a yardstick. The REAL
giveaway
>is the black velvet Elvis.
>
Hey, don't knock the BV Elvis. In these fraught days of office crackdowns on
anything that might be considered sexist or offensive, a BVE is the perfect
thing for the office wall.
It's so outre, it's cool... *ahem*, I mean, it's so tacky, it blends.
elsworth
ian_...@msn.com
>
>
> ian_...@msn.com wrote:
> > Assuming you do accept that the US has classes, how would you define them?
> > What signs would you look for? Do you consider it to be mainly a matter of
> > money, or of things like style, attitudes, accent, ancestry and behaviour?
> >
>
> Yes. I think a lot of it is money, but we (Americans) also tend to make
> judgments about
> ourselves based on our background (I know lots of academic types--a relatievly
> high
> status occupation--who still see themselves as lower middle/working class
because
> those
> are their roots, and they refuse to acknowledge that they now occupy a
somewhat
> priviledged
> position in society.
>
You find this attitude in Britain too. Some people seem to have a form of
inverted snobbery ("I'm working class and proud of it!") They persist in
regarding themselves as working class because of their roots, despite the
fact that their education and career may have plainly moved them into a new
sphere. It's a particularly common outlook with some slightly left wing
politicians and academics.
> At the same time, I think many of us judge others based on
regionalism/accents,
> especially
> when the region/accent is the south or is rural. Having lived most of my
adult
> life on the edges of the South
> (Texas and Kentucky), it's amazing the stereotypes people have in other
regions
> (it's been particularly
> interesting moving to the Northwest from Kentucky--the prejudices are
> remarkable).
>
Accents are a social minefield in the UK - they're one of the really big
class dividers. There's a lyric in "May Fair Lady" about how as soon as an
Englishman opens his mouth, he makes another Englishman despise him. There's
some truth in this. We have a host of regional accents here, and many are
viewed as rather downmarket. People expect their lawyer to talk a certain
way, and their plumber to talk another. A lawyer who talks with cockney
dropped "h" sounds and glottal stops or the Liverpool sing-song sound would
put off many clients.
> >
> > I just wonder if the term "middle-class" really means anything these days.
>
> I guess in the US it means even less, since we all tend to id ourselves as
some
> form of
> middle class.
>
Yes, it's pretty much like that in Britain. Most people are at some level of
middle class. Very few people are truly working class by the standards of
eighty years ago. I mean, virtually everybody is clean and more or less
literate, and owns a TV set! Even the lowliest British people go on holidays
abroad occasionally.
Janet
Gutterboy1
>>Ah, those things are what them what don't know use as a yardstick. The REAL
>giveaway
>>is the black velvet Elvis.
>>
>
>Hey, don't knock the BV Elvis. In these fraught days of office crackdowns on
>anything that might be considered sexist or offensive, a BVE is the perfect
>thing for the office wall.
>
>It's so outre, it's cool... *ahem*, I mean, it's so tacky, it blends.
>
Our Minnesota posters might be interested in this item, currently up for bid on
eBay: a black velvet painting of Gov. Jesse "The Body" Ventura.
Seeing is believing:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58785648
Gutterboy
Rabbit
elsworth wrote:
> Rabbit wrote in message <36A7A6BF...@hotstar.net>...
> >>
> >
> >Ah, those things are what them what don't know use as a yardstick. The REAL
> giveaway
> >is the black velvet Elvis.
> >
>
> Hey, don't knock the BV Elvis. In these fraught days of office crackdowns on
> anything that might be considered sexist or offensive, a BVE is the perfect
> thing for the office wall.
>
> It's so outre, it's cool... *ahem*, I mean, it's so tacky, it blends.
>
> elsworth
Actually, truth be told, we're looking for one. It has to be really cheap,
though. Hubby wants one for the wall of the garage.
Rabbit
Kent Parks
: Our Minnesota posters might be interested in this item, currently up for bid on
: eBay: a black velvet painting of Gov. Jesse "The Body" Ventura.
: Seeing is believing:
: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=58785648
I'm not sure I want to know what you were looking for when you stumbled
across THAT, GB...
Kent
Minettte
called MOBA (Museum of Bad Art). It's real museum dedicated to the preservation
of "art too bad to be ignored". I has a website..MOBA.com (i think). I saw
their greeting cards and almsot shat myself laughing.
Minettte
"Eros is the youngest of the Gods. He is also the most tired."
-Natalie Barney
*remove "alimb" to email me*
cinnamontoast
Minettte wrote:
: speaking of "bad art" (or good art-whatever..) i found a really funny
place
: called MOBA (Museum of Bad Art). It's real museum dedicated to the
preservation
: of "art too bad to be ignored". I has a website..MOBA.com (i think).
Um, Minette? I get the Metro Omaha Builder's Association. *grin*
c-toast
Minettte
Oops Sorry c.t.! i am ever So cyber literate...although i hear the buildings in
Omaha are hysterical!!! :)
Raine
Minettte wrote in message...
>speaking of "bad art" (or good art-whatever..) i found a really funny place
>called MOBA (Museum of Bad Art). It's real museum dedicated to the
preservation
>their greeting cards and almsot shat myself laughing.
>
That reminds me of a book called "The Encyclopedia of Bad Taste". It covered
everything from popular junk culture to the fringes of society - disco,
polyester, sports fans who paint their faces and wear rainbow wigs, K-Tel
products, fraternities, the Mafia, ostentatious wealth, Elvis memorabilia,
"splatter" movies, "slob" movies (e.g. "Porky's"), yard ornaments, top 40
radio, and of course, velvet paintings...especially of Elvis. It was
hilarious.
Raine
RxAmy
>>speaking of "bad art" (or good art-whatever..) i found a really funny place
>>called MOBA (Museum of Bad Art). It's real museum dedicated to the
>preservation
>>of "art too bad to be ignored". I has a website..MOBA.com (i think). I saw
>>their greeting cards and almsot shat myself laughing.
>>
RxAmy (a proud Friend of the Museum of Bad Art! Join up - it's free!!!)
"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food,
and tyrannize their teachers." - - -Socrates.
"A graceful taunt is worth a thousand insults."- - - Louis Nizer
"Why buy shampoo when real poo is still free?" - - - Unknown
Larisa Migachyov
:>speaking of "bad art" (or good art-whatever..) i found a really funny place
:>called MOBA (Museum of Bad Art). It's real museum dedicated to the
:preservation
:>of "art too bad to be ignored". I has a website..MOBA.com (i think). I saw
:>their greeting cards and almsot shat myself laughing.
There is a similar society for the preservation of bad poetry - it's named
after Julia Moore (the worst poet of all time, according to them). They
have a bad poetry contest every year.
KIRAMISH
told, we're looking for one. It has to be really cheap,
>though. Hubby wants one for the wall of the garage.
coveted by many - "The Last Supper" if you can't find EV. Black velvet
background, of course.
ian_...@msn.com
"Raine" <lil...@autobahn.mb.ca> wrote:
>
> Minettte wrote in message...
> >speaking of "bad art" (or good art-whatever..) i found a really funny place
> >called MOBA (Museum of Bad Art). It's real museum dedicated to the
> preservation
> >of "art too bad to be ignored". I has a website..MOBA.com (i think). I saw
> >their greeting cards and almsot shat myself laughing.
> >
>
> everything from popular junk culture to the fringes of society - disco,
> polyester, sports fans who paint their faces and wear rainbow wigs, K-Tel
> products, fraternities, the Mafia, ostentatious wealth, Elvis memorabilia,
> "splatter" movies, "slob" movies (e.g. "Porky's"), yard ornaments, top 40
> radio, and of course, velvet paintings...especially of Elvis. It was
> hilarious.
>
> Raine
>
I adore tasteless objects - they really amuse me. For years, I've had an
ambition to own a house big enough that I could devote a whole room to
collecting tacky tat. It's often broken my heart that lack of space has
denied me the chance to buy some really prize pieces. The objects I like
best tend to be those bought by pretentious or over-refined people, who have
no idea they are in bad taste. I mean things like plastic flowers and garden
gnomes, sentimental pictures and toilet roll covers in the form of
crinoline-skirted dolls.
Rabbit
KIRAMISH wrote:
Of course. You know, I always remember visiting my elderly aunt in Michigan, and
one of her most prized possessions was a huge paint-by-numbers Last Supper that
her husband had done in the 1950s. It hung in the dining room.
Rabbit
Kent Parks
:> Don't forget, you can always spring for that alltime favorite classic
:> coveted by many - "The Last Supper" if you can't find EV. Black velvet
:> background, of course.
: Of course. You know, I always remember visiting my elderly aunt in Michigan, and
: one of her most prized possessions was a huge paint-by-numbers Last Supper that
: her husband had done in the 1950s. It hung in the dining room.
I remember an Erma Bombeck reference to a garage sale where one of the
items was The Last Supper done entirely in bottle caps!
Kent
Gutterboy1
Gutterboy
RxAmy
>one of her most prized possessions was a huge paint-by-numbers Last Supper
>that
>her husband had done in the 1950s. It hung in the dining room.
>
My grandparents had one of those, which probably dated back to the same time -
my aunt did it as a kid. The thing was enormous - probably three feet by five
feet or so. Wonder if it was the same kit?
RxAmy
Rabbit
>
> I adore tasteless objects - they really amuse me. For years, I've had an
> ambition to own a house big enough that I could devote a whole room to
> collecting tacky tat. It's often broken my heart that lack of space has
> denied me the chance to buy some really prize pieces. The objects I like
> best tend to be those bought by pretentious or over-refined people, who have
> no idea they are in bad taste. I mean things like plastic flowers and garden
> gnomes, sentimental pictures and toilet roll covers in the form of
> crinoline-skirted dolls.
>
> Janet
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
One of the coolest things I saw, in a local magazine, was an artist's apartment.
Her hallway consisted of a long, low table with six or eight identical plastic
dial tones in various colors (all wired to ring simultaneously), and the wall
behind was decorated with large onesheets from old grocery stores, the
hand-painted type ("Broccoli 39 cents") that would be taped to the front windows.
I thought it was incredibly funky.
Rabbit
(Who has a soft spot for plastic yard flamingos and various other "tacky" items,
and whose best friend has a huge collection of sno-globes.)
Rabbit
RxAmy wrote:
> >You know, I always remember visiting my elderly aunt in Michigan, and
> >one of her most prized possessions was a huge paint-by-numbers Last Supper
> >that
> >her husband had done in the 1950s. It hung in the dining room.
> >
> >Rabbit
>
> My grandparents had one of those, which probably dated back to the same time -
> my aunt did it as a kid. The thing was enormous - probably three feet by five
> feet or so. Wonder if it was the same kit?
>
> RxAmy
It wouldn't surprise me -- that's pretty much the same dimensions.
Rabbit
(Who enjoyed paint-by-numbers, and those pictures you made out of string and
crushed gravel, as a child)
Rat & Swan
> I mean things like plastic flowers and garden
> gnomes, sentimental pictures and toilet roll covers in the form of
> crinoline-skirted dolls.
We never had a velvet Elvis or a lava lamp, BUT when I was a kid we DID
have toilet paper covers. First we had a doll with a crinoline, but she
got dropped in the bathtub and all the glue softened (gee, I wonder who
was at fault...) and so we replaced her with one of those corcheted
poodle dogs! The body holds the t.p. and the head comes off to take it
pot. Blarrgghh! AND it was PINK!
Currently, on the back of my toilet we have a cabinet to hold the
medicine chest overflow. I built it myself. In the cabinet is a VERY
kitsch pink ceramic shell. My folks got it back in 1945 and so it's
older than I am. Rat would LOVE nothing better than to see it in shards
in the wastebasket. She HATES it... tough, it's MINE!
Other things on the back of the potty, The Reader's Digest (An article a
day of Lasting significance, and JUST short enough...), Q-tips in a jar
and room deodorizer.
Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
Swan
Anyone have those tacky plush "tank and seat covers"?
Rabbit
>
> We never had a velvet Elvis or a lava lamp,
I have a lava lamp, a gen-yoo-whine one from the 1960s, happily undulating
away beside my computer here.
>
>
> Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
>
Nothing -- it's a small toilet and Puccini the cat would knock it off
otherwise. But the rest of the bathroom's pretty funky. I was a cab driver
years ago, and I have quite a collection of toy cabs and memorabilia, so
when we redid the bathroom, we painted it bright yellow and put a
checkerboard stripe around the walls, and then went to it. There's a huge
display case on the wall for the smaller cars, several larger ones on a
rack, various taxi photographs, my old picture card (my photo with my name,
which was displayed to the customers), rate card (70 cent drop, 70 cents per
mile) and a 1960s advertisement for Checker taxi on the walls, and a
rooflight on the rack. I'm still looking for a meter (and kicking myself
that I didn't grab one when the fleet went to electronics and the old
wind-up Novel meters were thrown into a pile out back). I have a couple of
taxi plates (they're surprisingly hard to come by) and when I get more we're
going to start screwing them to the moulding around the top of the wall.
Rabbit
(And for a garbage can, an old maple sap bucket)
cinnamontoast
Rabbit wrote:
: Of course. You know, I always remember visiting my elderly aunt in
Michigan, and
: one of her most prized possessions was a huge paint-by-numbers Last
Supper that
: her husband had done in the 1950s. It hung in the dining room.
My grandmother's was a huge jig-saw puzzle *Last Supper*. Glued on
cardboard and hung proudly. It now resides in this very house in my mom's
dining room.
*sigh*
c-toast
(who does appreciate the effort that Gram put into finishing it and
everything, but it is UGLY!)
Rat
>
> We never had a velvet Elvis or a lava lamp, BUT when I was a kid we DID
> have toilet paper covers.
We have a (new) lava lamp, and my mother actually owns *two* Velvet
Elvi, which hang in my parents' house. My dad hates them, but my
mother won't get rid of them. One was "decorated" by a friend of hers
with rhinestones and sequins...the other one hangs at the end of the
hallway and "watches" you. Very spooky.
>
> Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
>
*Way* too many magazines!
--sr
molly
:
: Other things on the back of the potty, The Reader's Digest (An article a
: day of Lasting significance, and JUST short enough...), Q-tips in a jar
: and room deodorizer.
: Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
:
: Anyone have those tacky plush "tank and seat covers"?
We have a seat cover because the lid stays down (with three cats one is
always falling in if we don't). On the back, there is a throughly read
Book of Lists (I've GOT to get a new one), a scented candle, a crystal
clock that was a wedding present and the only spare clock we have (for
timing morning showers so we're not late!) and a box of matches.
I'd rather die than cover my entire toilet with those coordinated tank
and seat covers. The cats would shread them immediately, anyway.
Molly
--
http://www.busprod.com/molly/me.html
Er, no. *Axial tilt* is the reason for the season.
Rabbit
>
> I'd rather die than cover my entire toilet with those coordinated tank
> and seat covers. The cats would shread them immediately, anyway.
>
They're bad enough, but one thing I really hate is padded toilet seats. If
I'm at someone's house who has one, I hate to sit down on it. That
squishiness -- that soft vinyl -- it gives me the creeps.
Rabbit
Rabbit
>
> Gutterboy
But I will tell you, I could have used one once -- I was in Glenwood Springs,
Colorado very early on a June morning. I went into a public toilet -- a small and
apparently uninsulated brick building -- and discovered a stainless-steel toilet.
Including the seat. If I'd been a guy (okay, so I wouldn't have sat down) I'm
sure my testicles would have ended up somewhere around my esophagus.
Rabbit
MADct
> >They're bad enough, but one thing I really hate is padded toilet seats.
> >If I'm at someone's house who has one, I hate to sit down on it.
> >That squishiness -- that soft vinyl -- it gives me the creeps.
...For Sure!! Then Gutterboy added...
> EEWWWWW! What she said!
>
> Those things are GROSS! It feels like the last occupant left a surprise on the
> seat...and the way they hold HEAT from the last ass that was there...<gagging>
Yes yes & YES! ...and then Your behind Sticks to the da** thing; then
it
FLOPS down. Oh, GeeRohss-s-s! !
MADct
Gutterboy1
>They're bad enough, but one thing I really hate is padded toilet seats. If
>I'm at someone's house who has one, I hate to sit down on it. That
>squishiness -- that soft vinyl -- it gives me the creeps.
>
EEWWWWW! What she said!
Those things are GROSS! It feels like the last occupant left a surprise on the
seat...and the way they hold HEAT from the last ass that was there...<gagging>
Gutterboy
Larisa Migachyov
:
:Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
I used to have a bookshelf, filled with light reading material (mysteries,
SF stories, funny stuff, and such); but now, I no longer have a private
bathroom. <sigh>
E l i s e
>speaking of "bad art" (or good art-whatever..) i found a really funny place
>called MOBA (Museum of Bad Art). It's real museum dedicated to the preservation
>of "art too bad to be ignored".
It's in Massachusetts. We have a friend who is a charter member. The
place is hilarious.
Elise
Minettte
>It's in Massachusetts. We have a friend who is a charter member. The
>place is hilarious.
Yeah, I know-i have friends in Dedham -but never knew it was there..i really
want to take my mom there when she comes to visit..i nearly popped a gut
laughing at some of the names and descriptions...one of my faves...is "Pals".
I've started an email coorespondence with one of the authors of the MOBA
book-he's a really funny guy. they don;t accept black velvet paintings for the
collection-probably because it's too obviously "bad" without any "nuance" !
cinnamontoast
Swan wrote:
: Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
: Anyone have those tacky plush "tank and seat covers"?
I hate those covers. I hate padded seats too. *shudder*
On the back o' the toilet we have a Marbled Pothos Ivy in a basket, a brass
frog candle holder (with a red candle from Christmas) and a really cool
African Frog wood cut figure.
c-toast
Kent Parks
: Other things on the back of the potty, The Reader's Digest (An article a
: day of Lasting significance, and JUST short enough...), Q-tips in a jar
: and room deodorizer.
: Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
No artwork, just some half-read magazines & books and the 1998 "Bridge
hand a day" calendar, in which I'm only up to about Oct. 27
Kent
Maire
: medicine chest overflow. I built it myself. In the cabinet is a VERY
: kitsch pink ceramic shell. My folks got it back in 1945 and so it's
: older than I am. Rat would LOVE nothing better than to see it in shards
: in the wastebasket. She HATES it... tough, it's MINE!
: day of Lasting significance, and JUST short enough...), Q-tips in a jar
: and room deodorizer.
:
: Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
: Swan
: Anyone have those tacky plush "tank and seat covers"
*peers over at her bathroom, barely visible from the computer*
A tall candle, wax trails that melted from small votive candles which
burned while I bathed (the palebeast thinks they look pretty so I haven't
removed them yet), a bottle of rose oil, a copy of Frommer's Guide to London
1987-1988 (I have no idea WHY it's in there, though); The Big Book of Martyrs
(my fault, that one); and The Chinese Lake Murders by Robert van Gulik.
Then again, I'm working on an upcoming move, so things are a bit... in a
state of quiet desperationg around here. *g*
- Fey the sigless (who spent a couple of hours trying to pack books according
to category - mystery, scifi/fantasy, general fiction and literature, religion,
nonfiction, graphic novels, cooking...)
:
ian_...@msn.com
ely...@nospamnothanks.tiac.net (E l i s e ) wrote:
> On 23 Jan 1999 02:59:13 GMT, mine...@aol.comalimb (Minettte) wrote:
>
> >speaking of "bad art" (or good art-whatever..) i found a really funny place
> >called MOBA (Museum of Bad Art). It's real museum dedicated to the
preservation
> >of "art too bad to be ignored".
>
> place is hilarious.
>
>
So who needs a special museum for bad art these days? In Britain, half the
mainstream galleries seem to be full of stuff that's either pretentious,
talentless crap or simply gross. We've had pickled sheep and sharks exhibited
as art in recent years. There was publicity recently about a painting (in
London's Tate Gallery, I think) that was done partly with elephant poo! (there
was a lovely cartoon in a newspaper about it. It featured a baby elephant
crossing its legs and looking uncomfortable. Speech balloon from its mother
read: "Not now, dear, wait till you get to the Tate!")
ItzJMP
>
In the big bathroom, DH's various reading materials, ie: Army Times, Playboy,
Reader's Digest, WWF Mags, etc.
In the bathroom off the master bath, My makeup mirror and a basket of popperi
Jo
----------------------------------------------
No matter how little money and how
few possessions you own, having
a dog makes you rich.
----------------------
Rabbit
> mainstream galleries seem to be full of stuff that's either pretentious,
> talentless crap or simply gross. We've had pickled sheep and sharks exhibited
> as art in recent years. There was publicity recently about a painting (in
> London's Tate Gallery, I think) that was done partly with elephant poo! (there
> was a lovely cartoon in a newspaper about it. It featured a baby elephant
> crossing its legs and looking uncomfortable. Speech balloon from its mother
> read: "Not now, dear, wait till you get to the Tate!")
>
> Janet
I will admit to having absolutely no use for so-called "modern" or "abstract"
art. I really want to visit the Guggenheim in New York, just to see the building
-- it definitely won't be for what's hanging on the walls.
Rabbit
(Who really, truly doesn't understand how a square of canvas painted red can end
up on a gallery wall with people going on and on about how marvellous it is)
(And don't get me started on "performance art" ...)
Gutterboy1
>So who needs a special museum for bad art these days? In Britain, half the
>mainstream galleries seem to be full of stuff that's either pretentious,
>talentless crap or simply gross. We've had pickled sheep and sharks exhibited
>as art in recent years. There was publicity recently about a painting (in
>London's Tate Gallery, I think) that was done partly with elephant poo!
>(there
>was a lovely cartoon in a newspaper about it. It featured a baby elephant
>crossing its legs and looking uncomfortable. Speech balloon from its mother
>read: "Not now, dear, wait till you get to the Tate!")
>
ROTFPMPL!!!
Over here, we recently had an Arteeste who put in a butt plug and ate a
tremendous amount of fiber for a week. When it came time to create her
masterwork, she went to a bowling alley and performed the World's Longest Shit
down one of the lanes. This was duly photographed and exhibited in New York!
No shit!
Gutterboy
monica
>Rabbit
>(Who really, truly doesn't understand how a square of canvas painted red can end
>up on a gallery wall with people going on and on about how marvellous it is)
>(And don't get me started on "performance art" ...)
I DID tell you about Circle of Rocks, didn't I?? How about the gauged
drywall of a museum, with the sheetrock debris lying on the floor in a
pile?? Don't get me started.
monica
______________________________________________________________
Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men fear it.
-- George Bernard Shaw
monica
>Over here, we recently had an Arteeste who put in a butt plug and ate a
>tremendous amount of fiber for a week. When it came time to create her
>masterwork, she went to a bowling alley and performed the World's Longest Shit
>down one of the lanes. This was duly photographed and exhibited in New York!
>
>No shit!
>
>Gutterboy
Are you serious? That is just vile. What the hell? Didn't you used
to have to have some kind of talent to be called an artist??
Yeeeecch!!
Rabbit
>
> --> (Who really, truly doesn't understand how a square of canvas painted red can end
> --> up on a gallery wall with people going on and on about how marvellous it is)
> --> (And don't get me started on "performance art" ...)
> -->
> I agree with you, Rabbit. It's an insult to all of the old
> masters of history and I don't know why a true art lover would
> accept that junk as art.
> --
> <*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*><*>
> Jeri Jo--
>
Several years ago, we went to the Art Gallery of Ontario; some "great artist" had a new
piece in one of the galleries. It consisted of two huge red squares. That's all. Just
red.
I was commenting rather nastily on it to my husband, and one of the curators/guards
(whatever he was) overheard me. He came over and pointed out that part of the appeal
(and he was very serious about this) was that the brush-strokes on one were vertical,
while on the other they were horizontal.
He got very huffy and walked away when I asked how he knew that they were hung properly
-- what if the vertical one was meant to be the horizontal one, and the folks putting
them up had made a mistake?
A few years ago the gallery purchased a painting called "Voice of Fire", for which they
paid several million dollars. It consisted of three (count em) stripes on a canvas. It
caused quite a bit of public controversy. It was used on the cover of their program,
with a person looking at it. Thousands of these programs were handed out, until a child
noticed that the label on the onlooker's jeans was on the wrong side. The negative had
been flopped; the photograph had been printed backwards.
A short while later, the museum acquired an Old Master, at a very high price. People
naturally wrote letters to the paper commenting that FINALLY the gallery had spent its
money wisely. The director of the gallery wrote to the paper, saying that it was
obvious that the public knew very little about art, if it could not realize that Voice
of Fire was just as valuable; and then she mentioned something about the "enlightened
employees" of the gallery who did appreciate the abstract work.
Well, I think my fingers burned the keys as I typed my letter to the editor. They
printed it, too, when I asked how "enlightened" these employees were that they could
hand out thousands of pamphlets, and yet a child caught the fact that their precious
painting was backwards.
Rabbit
ian_...@msn.com
gutte...@aol.com (Gutterboy1) wrote:
>
>
> Over here, we recently had an Arteeste who put in a butt plug and ate a
> tremendous amount of fiber for a week. When it came time to create her
> masterwork, she went to a bowling alley and performed the World's Longest Shit
> down one of the lanes. This was duly photographed and exhibited in New York!
>
> No shit!
>
> Gutterboy
>
Hell, I wonder if that one'll make the Guinness Book of Records!
It reminds me of the case of the vomit artist. Apparently there was some
character who who ate food of all one colour for days, then took emetics and
threw it all up in art galleries (in a tastefully shaped, one-tone pile, no
doubt.) I'm not sure whether it was intended to be a masterpiece in itself or
a discriminating comment on the state of modern art.
Did anybody ever see an episode of the sci fi comedy Red Dwarf in which
Lister had a good line about modern art? He said that on a school trip to
Paris, he'd thrown up while at the top of the Eiffel Tower. The spew had
landed on Montmartres, and somebody had bought it as a Jackson Pollock! (or
some modern artist - _I forget the exact line.)
ian_...@msn.com
I'm sure you all know the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. It took a child
to point out to the hypocritical adults that the emperor was naked - they had
all thought they'd look clever if they pretended to believe he wore fine
robes. I think the modern art world is like the emperor's land. Too many
people believe they will look old-fashioned and uncultured if they confess
that some trendy and much-hyped work is worthless trash.
Gutterboy1
>I'm sure you all know the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. It took a child
>to point out to the hypocritical adults that the emperor was naked - they had
>all thought they'd look clever if they pretended to believe he wore fine
>robes. I think the modern art world is like the emperor's land. Too
many
>people believe they will look old-fashioned and uncultured if they confess
>that some trendy and much-hyped work is worthless trash.
>
In the 80s, when the mod-art market was going nuts, a fellow named Mark Kostabi
made a fortune with just this attitude. He produced the most cliched work he
could think of, hired some $8/hour art students to execute it, and sold it for
hundreds of thousands, ridiculing those who were stupid enough to buy it. (He
actually called Sylvester Stallone a "philistine" for buying one of his works.)
Natch, this drove his prices even higher. Kostabi even produced a coffee-table
book of his work and entitled it "Sadness Because the Video Rental Store Was
Closed." That sold, too.
And let's not forget Jeff Koons, who didn't quite have the same sense of humor,
but cast inflatable bunnies in chrome and floated basketballs in aquariums
half-filled with water. ("50/50 Water/Ball Tank," if I remember.) That last one
sold for a fortune.
The late great Spy magazine once rented a Soho gallery, filled it with
children's artwork, and had an opening for a group they called the "Neo-Neos."
None of the art actually sold, but the magazine sent writers in to the opening
who redacted the art lovers' comments. It made a great article.
I like quite a bit of modern art, but much of it gets seized upon and overly
valued simply because a gallery owner is savvy enough to make a cause celebre
out of one particular artist. The recent movie "Pecker" examined this
point--not particularly well, but it was still funny to see cosmopolitan New
Yorkers exclaiming over and finding irony in everyday snapshots of blue-collar
life.
Gutterboy
cinnamontoast
Gutterboy1 wrote:
<snip>
: The late great Spy magazine once rented a Soho gallery, filled it with
: children's artwork, and had an opening for a group they called the
"Neo-Neos."
: None of the art actually sold, but the magazine sent writers in to the
opening
: who redacted the art lovers' comments. It made a great article.
<snip>
Gawd, I miss Spy magazine. I remember the feature you are talking about.
It was really funny.
What was your favorite cover? My favorite was Hillary in full bondage
gear.
:)
c-toast
Nel...@ibm.net
>Rabbit <rab...@hotstar.net> wrote:
>
>>Rabbit
>>(Who really, truly doesn't understand how a square of canvas painted red can end
>>up on a gallery wall with people going on and on about how marvellous it is)
>>(And don't get me started on "performance art" ...)
>
>I DID tell you about Circle of Rocks, didn't I?? How about the gauged
>drywall of a museum, with the sheetrock debris lying on the floor in a
>pile?? Don't get me started.
>
>monica
>______________________________________________________________
>Liberty means responsibility. That is why most men fear it.
>-- George Bernard Shaw
A few years ago my husband and I were helping a friend dispose of
broken tractor parts. Instead of taking them directly to the dump, we
left them outside the museum of our local university for a day to see
how people reacted to them (my husband's office window overlooked the
museum). As you might guess, some people stood in front of them
staring at them poetically and making- I assume -aesthetic comments to
eachother.
Rabbit
>
> A few years ago my husband and I were helping a friend dispose of
> broken tractor parts. Instead of taking them directly to the dump, we
> left them outside the museum of our local university for a day to see
> how people reacted to them (my husband's office window overlooked the
> museum). As you might guess, some people stood in front of them
> staring at them poetically and making- I assume -aesthetic comments to
> eachother.
I can believe it. In high school, our art teacher, who was infatuated with the modern
stuff, took us to the art gallery. In one of the stranger rooms he told us to look
around. After we'd viewed some of the weirder stuff, we stood at the electrical panel
and very seriously wondered if it was part of the display or part of the building.
Rabbit
(It wasn't, but we wanted to make sure just in case it was on the exam)
elsworth
ian_...@msn.com wrote in message <78hs26$i3t$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>>
>
>I'm sure you all know the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. It took a child
>to point out to the hypocritical adults that the emperor was naked - they had
>all thought they'd look clever if they pretended to believe he wore fine
>robes. I think the modern art world is like the emperor's land. Too many
>people believe they will look old-fashioned and uncultured if they confess
>that some trendy and much-hyped work is worthless trash.
>
But some of it isn't. One of my favourite paintings in the National Gallery of
Art in Washington D.C. is a huge abstract by Robert Motherwell ('Reconciliation
Elegy') that I find very soothing to look at. Recently I took in the Mark
Rothko exhibit there - his paintings are simply bands of colour, but what
colour! Luminous, joyful emotion surges through his works when he was at his
peak, and a dark, terrifying blackness seeps into his later work, as his
paintings reflect the growing despair of his inner world.
Abstract art is an idea taken to its most minute level. It doesn't make sense
to a lot of people because it is easier to dismiss something than to try to
understand it (this is a generalization. I am not casting slurs on anyone here.
I am assuming that all of you react to abstract art the way you do because you
understand it, but don't like it. This is the only true reaction any real
artist ever looks for - like or dislike. Trust me).
A century ago, Van Gogh was an artist who sold one of his paintings in exchange
for a loaf of bread. He couldn't get exhibited anywhere, and everyone dismissed
his work as awful. Last December, I waited in line for three hours to see the
Van Gogh exhibit in D.C. - advance tickets disappeared months before the show
came to town. Funnily enough, while wandering through the show, I realized that
most of the people who had come to see it *still* didn't understand his work (OB
ascf: and all the fucking children in strollers I *know* couldn't have cared
less - why DO they bring the damned things with them?), but were there because
he was a 'legitimate' artist. They all had their guided tour recordings glued
to their ears, and were barely bothering to look at the paintings, let alone
form an honest opinion about them.
The Mark Rothko show was half-empty.
What's an artist to do? I paint much more like Rothko than Van Gogh, and even
more like Motherwell. The art that Gutterboy was talking about is known as
'Pathetic' art, and is a reflection of society's (actually, the art world's)
need for ever more outrageous and shocking forms of acting out, blurring the
lines between performance art and mental therapy (I really hate this kind of
art - it talks about destruction and hopelessness without offering absolution).
The most disgusting one I ever read about was a woman (who is lauded for her
work - there is no justice in this world :)) who shoved a roll of film up her
vagina and pulled it out by gradually unreeling it - all while she was
menstruating - all this onstage, and filmed for posterity (which is totally
against the original ephemeral idea of performance art, by the way).
Art is wonderful - even the Museum of Bad Art has a valuable place - but the Art
World as it stands today really sucks.
phew. rant over. :)
elsworth
monica
>I'm sure you all know the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. It took a child
>to point out to the hypocritical adults that the emperor was naked - they had
>all thought they'd look clever if they pretended to believe he wore fine
>robes.
I thought I was the only one who used this phrase. I am fond of
saying to anything that is conceptually like the "modern art" paint
splashes on canvas, "This is The Emporer's New Clothes".
I often think that the people I'm with don't really get what the hell
I'm saying.
Larisa Migachyov
<36ac93f4...@news.mindspring.com>:
Distribution:
monica wrote:
:ian_...@msn.com wrote:
:
:>I'm sure you all know the story of The Emperor's New Clothes. It took a child
:>to point out to the hypocritical adults that the emperor was naked - they had
:>all thought they'd look clever if they pretended to believe he wore fine
:>robes.
:
:I thought I was the only one who used this phrase. I am fond of
:saying to anything that is conceptually like the "modern art" paint
:splashes on canvas, "This is The Emporer's New Clothes".
I apply this phrase to modern music, most of which, to me, sounds like
noise. Modern art - at least some modern art - is at least interesting to
look at, and does not offend the eye. I am a total ignoramus when it
comes to art, but I do like the colorful blob - type paintings. However,
modern "music" actually hurts my ears to listen to; it makes no sense.
It's just random noise.
Chromatic Butterfly Wings
I saw a magazine article about a fellow who gives himself paint enemas,
and then expels them onto canvas.
Whatever happened to using a brush? :)
Leigh
--
| The Wonder Caterpillar le...@magenta.com |
| "You don't tell deliberate lies, but sometimes you have to be evasive." |
| -- Margaret Thatcher -- |
Gutterboy1
>Gawd, I miss Spy magazine. I remember the feature you are talking about.
>It was really funny.
>
>What was your favorite cover? My favorite was Hillary in full bondage
>gear.
>
That was a great one! My favorite was the "Ivanarama" cover--an EXTREME closeup
of Ms. Trump so tight that you could count every pore.
Sadly, after the 80s ended, Spy was never as funny. Maybe it needed such an
outrageously gilded decade to flourish.
Gutterboy
Gutterboy1
>What's an artist to do? I paint much more like Rothko than Van Gogh, and
>even
>more like Motherwell. The art that Gutterboy was talking about is known as
>'Pathetic' art, and is a reflection of society's (actually, the art world's)
>need for ever more outrageous and shocking forms of acting out, blurring the
>lines between performance art and mental therapy (I really hate this kind of
>art - it talks about destruction and hopelessness without offering
>absolution).
Whoa, Nellie! I wasn't criticizing the likes of Mark Rothko or Keith Haring, or
even "shocking" artists like Joel-Peter Witkin, Gilbert + George, or Robert
Williams. All these people have genuine talent. I was singling out folks who
are more the product of skillful PR by gallery owners or other circumstance.
(The best thing that ever happened to Karen Finley and Tim Miller, IMO, was
being singled out by critics of the National Endowment for the Arts--talk about
not only publicity, but the chance to be seen as national martyrs!)
"Pathetic" art seems to have come and gone. I remember seeing a show by a guy
named Cary Leibowitz (sp?), known professionally as "Candyass"--his stuff was
mostly handwritten scraps of paper with messages like "I suck" and photographs
torn out of magazines. It made me laugh, sure, but the funniest part of the
exhibit were the price tags under the artworks.
>The most disgusting one I ever read about was a woman (who is lauded for her
>work - there is no justice in this world :)) who shoved a roll of film up her
>vagina and pulled it out by gradually unreeling it - all while she was
>menstruating - all this onstage, and filmed for posterity
Eh...that's bush-league stuff. <duck and cover>
> (which is totally
>against the original ephemeral idea of performance art, by the way).
>
I don't even like that term. What separates "performance art" from a concert, a
theater piece, or a stand-up comedy routine?
>Art is wonderful - even the Museum of Bad Art has a valuable place - but the
>Art
>World as it stands today really sucks.
If you mean the stuff that's codified, hung up in galleries, and sold, yeah, I
agree with you. But who says you have to pay money or even attention to that
stuff, any more than you have to listen to the crap on the radio?
Gutterboy
Jim Paradis
> I can believe it. In high school, our art teacher, who was infatuated
> with the modern stuff, took us to the art gallery. In one of the stranger
> rooms he told us to look around. After we'd viewed some of the weirder
> stuff, we stood at the electrical panel and very seriously wondered if
> it was part of the display or part of the building.
I know the feeling... the one time I went to the Guggenheim, there was
some neat stuff there but also some stuff that made me wonder: why
is *that* junk in the museum, but not *mine*?! How does one get to
elevate such mundane objects to "artistic" status [and more importantly,
have them bought by museums for $$$? 8-) ]
One thing I've been tempted to do is study the style of the "wall tags"
used to identify artwork in a particular museum, then make up tags in
a similar style for "mundane" objects in the museum and sprinkle them
around:
"Bench. Maple. 1988. 18"x60". Museum purchase"
"Window. Glass & Aluminum. 1967. 48"x96". Permanent collection"
"Humidistat. Mechanism in Lucite container. 1975. 8"x16"x16"."
"Museum guard. Performance art. On loan from <name-of-guard>"
Then sit back and see who notices and what gets done about it...
--
Jim Paradis j...@jrp.tiac.net "The early bird gets the worm.
http://www.tiac.net/users/jrp/index.html If you want something else for
breakfast, get up later."
Cas...@my-dejanews.com
>day of Lasting significance, and JUST short enough...), Q-tips in a jar
>and room deodorizer.
> Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
The walls are sort-of a 'distressed Italian' wallwash effect and there are
plaster busts of a young man and woman. Also there is also frequently either a
vase with a single rosebud or an ickebana (sp?) arrangement or homemade
potpourri. Above it are four plaster medallians of the four seasons as faces,
and wall sconces, one really large one with dozens of dried roses in assorted
colours that I grow myself.
monica
>
>>Rat & Swan <lab...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>> Other things on the back of the potty, The Reader's Digest (An article a
>>day of Lasting significance, and JUST short enough...), Q-tips in a jar
>>and room deodorizer.
>
>> Whatta YOU have on the back of your pot?
I have no idea why I'm responding to this post, actually, but I have
three candles on the tank of my toidy.
elsworth
Gutterboy1 wrote in message <19990125191902...@ng-fd1.aol.com>...
>
>Whoa, Nellie! I wasn't criticizing the likes of Mark Rothko or Keith Haring, or
>even "shocking" artists like Joel-Peter Witkin, Gilbert + George, or Robert
>Williams. All these people have genuine talent. I was singling out folks who
>are more the product of skillful PR by gallery owners or other circumstance.
>(The best thing that ever happened to Karen Finley and Tim Miller, IMO, was
>being singled out by critics of the National Endowment for the Arts--talk about
>not only publicity, but the chance to be seen as national martyrs!)
True, so true. Point taken. I knew people weren't talking about the good
stuff, but it's hard to stop when I get started - a result of people who ask
what I do, and I tell them I'm an artist, they then say "What do you *really*
do?" - like I con't be making a living at it. Grrr.
>
>"Pathetic" art seems to have come and gone. I remember seeing a show by a guy
>named Cary Leibowitz (sp?), known professionally as "Candyass"--his stuff was
>mostly handwritten scraps of paper with messages like "I suck" and photographs
>torn out of magazines. It made me laugh, sure, but the funniest part of the
>exhibit were the price tags under the artworks.
Oh, yes! I'm still trying to think up ways to get in on the scam. Trouble is,
people with less shame then me have already gone much, much farther than I ever
would.:)
>
<snip>>
>> (which is totally
>>against the original ephemeral idea of performance art, by the way).
>
>I don't even like that term. What separates "performance art" from a concert, a
>theater piece, or a stand-up comedy routine?
Nothing. It's ALL performance art - at least, it is if you're honest.
Personally, I'd rather go to a concert. And Robin Williams in the 70's was more
trippy than any NEA-cloned artist.
>
>
>If you mean the stuff that's codified, hung up in galleries, and sold, yeah, I
>agree with you. But who says you have to pay money or even attention to that
>stuff, any more than you have to listen to the crap on the radio?
Well, I firmly believe that the NEA should not be using our taxes to subsidize
artists who can't make a living on their own - I do it, why can't they? But I
do like going to museums and galleries, so I guess I'll be looking at crap along
wit' the good stuff for a long time to come.
elsworth (agreeing with you)
monica
>Well, I firmly believe that the NEA should not be using our taxes to subsidize
>artists who can't make a living on their own - I do it, why can't they?
Yeah, I can't paint or sculpt worth a damn, but I'm still trying to
figure out how to get the government to pay me for sitting home and
doing it anyway. What a frigging scam that is! It doesn't do anything
at all for serious artists.
Rat & Swan
> Oh, yes! I'm still trying to think up ways to get in on the scam. Trouble is,
> people with less shame then me have already gone much, much farther than I ever
> would.:)
What I used to do was to take some point that I was thinking of and go
an extra step, saying what the public was thinking. One piece that I
never sold (sadly) was "Full And Complete Stop" which was a multi media
piece. It was a montage of newspaper clippings, photos and articles on
blind pedestrians killed by speeding cars. On top was a broken cane and
the whole was spattered with blood and tufts of hair. In one corner was
a cut up driver's licence. It was definitely "edge stuff" and NOBODY
wanted any part of it!
The problem is that if you say a thing full out, "screaming" in acrylic
and canvas or chrome and glass, people shiver and back off. they don't
WANT the serious stuff, the just want the fluffy shit.
Maybe I'll try my hand at childfree art. Pictures of little children
playing with razorblades... Heh!
Swan
Rat & Swan
> Several years ago, we went to the Art Gallery of Ontario; some "great artist" had a new
> piece in one of the galleries. It consisted of two huge red squares. That's all. Just
> red.
> I was commenting rather nastily on it to my husband, and one of the curators/guards
> (whatever he was) overheard me. He came over and pointed out that part of the appeal
> (and he was very serious about this) was that the brush-strokes on one were vertical,
> while on the other they were horizontal.
Sometimes this "modern art" crud can work in FAVOR of an artist as
well. For several years I created and exhibited art with the Rose
Resnick Lighthouse for the Blind in San Francisco. One piece, "The
Contemplative" was a beautiful stylised Asian monk, with heavy lidded
eyes and shaven head. Quite nice. the piece fetched $150. On the
strength of that piece, then, I sold one to the Sacramento Society for
the Blind entitled "Buckling Under Pressure which was a white cane,
suspended on leather straps, with literally HUNDREDS of snall buckled
straps hanging from the crosspiece in a long, multicolored fringe. It
was *hideous*! IIRC the thing went for three hundred! If anyone is in
Sacto and wants to see the thing, it's hanging in their lobbey.
The disappointment to me is that when I HAVE done serious pieces, such
as the five foot tall, ten foot long reproduction of the word "Braille"
in braille dots, or the oversized television remote control with
function buttons labeled "Abortion" "Suicide" "Racism" "Religion"
"parenting" "lifestyle" and one with a nuclear mushroom cloud (the piece
was entitled 'Hot Buttons') they never SOLD! I would sweat out layering
meaning into form and symbolism into solidity and at the end of the
show, I'd go home with the piece in a bag! I finally gave it up because
people were buying the shit and leaving the good stuff! I will NOT do
that. My own integrity won't allow me to produce that kind of cynical
exploitative stuff.
Anyway, I'm outta that loop now. I got sick and tired of doing shows for
and by blind persons and every freakin time the discussion turned to
"What shall we TITLE the show?" some moron would say "Let's call it
'Insights'!!" and they WOULD! I suggested 'Turning a Blind Eye' once and
'Not is Good as a Wink' and was almost shouted down! that year they
called the show Insights II. BLARGH!
So now my secret is out... I waz a arteest. PLEASE, don't tell anyone,
I'd rather be remembered as a lawyer or a sex pervert!
Swan
elsworth
Rat & Swan wrote in message <36AE00...@pacbell.net>...
>elsworth wrote:
>
>> Oh, yes! I'm still trying to think up ways to get in on the scam. Trouble
is,
>> people with less shame then me have already gone much, much farther than I
ever
>> would.:)
>
>What I used to do was to take some point that I was thinking of and go
>an extra step, saying what the public was thinking. One piece that I
>never sold (sadly) was "Full And Complete Stop" which was a multi media
>piece. It was a montage of newspaper clippings, photos and articles on
>blind pedestrians killed by speeding cars. On top was a broken cane and
>the whole was spattered with blood and tufts of hair. In one corner was
>a cut up driver's licence. It was definitely "edge stuff" and NOBODY
>wanted any part of it!
I know, I know. <sigh> The current set of Paintings I'm working on (I'm
strictly 2-D) involved abstracted depictions of self-aborted foetuses, ones
that were too damaged to survive. I happen to think there's a weird kind of
beauty to them, but also the painting taps very deeply into my anger about
fertility treatments, the pressure to breed, and the importance given to
'perfect' children in our society. It branches off - currently I'm doing
self-portraits in the form of one of these things. My friends call them the
Frog paintings, since there is a certain amphibious nature to unborn babies.
>
>The problem is that if you say a thing full out, "screaming" in acrylic
>and canvas or chrome and glass, people shiver and back off. they don't
>WANT the serious stuff, the just want the fluffy shit.
They either want the fluffy shit, or they want 'ironic' stuff that removes them
from the impact of the statement being made. I'm thinking about giving it all
up and becoming one of those artists whose work sells at Ramada Inns - you know,
"Real Oil Paintings by Real Artists! Starting at $29!!" I figure I can knock
out four or five of those in a day, colour-coordinated to match the currently
fashionable bathroom and sitting room colour schemes.
>
>Maybe I'll try my hand at childfree art. Pictures of little children
>playing with razorblades... Heh!
It's tres theraputic, I can tell you. Babies with tire tracks rumnning over
them are a favourite of mine.
elsworth
elsworth
monica wrote in message <36ade3e0...@news.mindspring.com>...
>"elsworth" <elsw...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>>Well, I firmly believe that the NEA should not be using our taxes to subsidize
>>artists who can't make a living on their own - I do it, why can't they?
>
>Yeah, I can't paint or sculpt worth a damn, but I'm still trying to
>figure out how to get the government to pay me for sitting home and
>doing it anyway. What a frigging scam that is! It doesn't do anything
>at all for serious artists.
>
is the same old stinky stuff. 95% of everything is crap (wasn't it Vonnegut who
said that?).
I realize this is somewhat controversial, but I think the NEA should be using
that money to introduce children to the arts. After all, the next generation of
paying customers has to come from somewhere.
elsworth
monica
>I realize this is somewhat controversial, but I think the NEA should be using
>that money to introduce children to the arts. After all, the next generation of
>paying customers has to come from somewhere.
>
>elsworth
I think it's a great idea. Give them the exposure, and let them take
it from there, I say. The ones with talent will find a way to create
things, apply for scholarships, or whatever. The ones without talent
will have to either develop it or struggle along trying to sell their
crap at arts festivals and town fairs. Subsidizing grown-ups is a
bunch of crap, but I have no problem using the money to give kids a
head start in the art/music/theater departments. It's the old "giving
the man a fish and teaching him to fish" thing.
Scott Amspoker
>speaking of "bad art" (or good art-whatever..) i found a really funny place
>called MOBA (Museum of Bad Art). It's real museum dedicated to the preservation
>of "art too bad to be ignored". I has a website..MOBA.com (i think). I saw
>their greeting cards and almsot shat myself laughing.
I got the Metro Omaha Builders Association. (And to think I enabled "show
pictures" for this.) Are we at least in the geographical ballpark?
Scott Amspoker |
s...@rt66.com |
http://www.rt66.com/sda |
cinnamontoast
elsworth wrote:
<snip>
: Well, I firmly believe that the NEA should not be using our taxes to
subsidize
: artists who can't make a living on their own - I do it, why can't they?
Could they have a lack of talent, perhaps?
:)
c-toast