Tribal Advocates Question DHS Actions
free_...@my-deja.com
Last updated: Tuesday, November 6, 2001
Indians question DHS actions
Number of children removed from homes 5 times national average
AUGUSTA — The Department of Human Services is removing Maliseet
children in the Houlton area from their homes at more than five times the
national average for American Indians, and placing them in mostly
non-native foster homes, an Indian representative told a public hearing
Monday.
The state has taken 29 children from the 742-member Houlton Band of
Maliseets during the past five years, and had 11 of them adopted into
non-native homes, Rep. Donna M. Loring of the Penobscot Nation told the
legislatively appointed Committee to Review the Child Protective System.
“The loss of that many children to a tribe [of that number] is
nothing less than genocide. When an Indian tribe loses its children it
loses its future,” said Loring.
She added that the state was disregarding the Indian Child Welfare Act,
intended to protect Indian children from being taken away from their
culture and heritage. The 1978 federal law says that decisions about the
welfare of Indian children should be made by the tribes themselves, without
state interference.
Loring was one of several tribal advocates who spoke to the committee,
which is investigating the child protective system.
She recommended that national experts train members of the Maine judiciary
on the ICWA and that an Indian advocate act as a liaison between the courts
and the tribes. In addition, she has submitted a bill that would allow
members of the Houlton Band of Maliseets to bring their child welfare cases
to the Penobscot Nation’s Tribal Court until they can create their
own court system.
The state hasn’t followed ICWA stipulations that Indian children be
placed first with extended family, Maliseet Chief Brenda Commander said.
The next options are tribal homes or other native homes. As a last choice,
an Indian child may be placed with a non-native family.
Of 18 open DHS cases involving Maliseet children, only four children have
been placed into Maliseet homes. Twelve have been identified as needing
therapeutic foster care. Meanwhile, there are empty beds in the four native
homes in Aroostook County licensed to give therapeutic care.
The children removed from their homes represent 16 percent of the tribal
enrollment for children under age 17, Commander said.
“These numbers only just begin to touch the tip of the iceberg. They
fail to fully illustrate the blatant disregard the department has had in
following the ICWA law, and the shady, if not sneaky, actions of the
department’s workers and some foster parents. We have had the belief
that the goal of the department was to reunify children with their
biological parents. More times than not this goal has been made
unattainable by the department.”
Carole Francis, executive director for the Houlton Band of Maliseet
Indians, said ICWA requires that families receive remedial services and
rehabilitative programs so that they won’t be broken up. But the
usual practice has been that services are provided to families only after
children have been removed. Local DHS staff should be ordered to work more
closely with the tribe when serving these families, she said.
Francis also took issue with the court system, which she says often orders
agencies to provide services to parents even though the tribe offers the
same programs and services.
Because native clients are more comfortable working with tribal agencies
than with outsiders, tribal services have a better success rate. The
department should refer native parents to tribal services first, she said.
Also speaking for the Maliseets was Jane Root, the tribal domestic violence
coordinator. Court-appointed guardians ad litem and attorneys should be
trained in native culture so they can “look at the family through a
different lens,” she said.
Attorneys often pressure battered women to come to an agreement and
don’t consult with their clients before making decisions, Root said.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
/////////
--
"..and that you may never experience the
humility that the power of the American Government
has reduced me to, is the wish of him, who, in his
native forests, was once as proud and bold as yourself."
Black Hawk, 1833
free_...@my-deja.com
> >The state has taken 29 children from the 742-member Houlton Band of
> >Maliseets during the past five years, and had 11 of them adopted into
> >non-native
> homes,>>
>
> endure before the state acted to remove them.
>
> P2P
Even tho they failed "to fully illustrate the blatant disregard the
department has had in following the ICWA law, and the shady, if not sneaky,
actions of the departments workers and some foster parents." and compared
to "genocide" of the people.I have to wonder how it could make a
difference. Maybe, here, a better descriptor would be 'intriguing' rather
than "interesting", P2P. If you ever get a chance, check out this book:
Touch the Earth, A Self-Portrait of Indian Existence by T.C.McLuhan
Promontory Press NY 1971 take care. free.
http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.html?ID=45106
///////// "..and that you may never experience the
Ron
Lovely Article Free, now lets poke some holes in it shall we?
> http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.html?ID=45106
>
> Last updated: Tuesday, November 6, 2001
>
>
> Indians question DHS actions
> Number of children removed from homes 5 times national average
>
> AUGUSTA — The Department of Human Services is removing Maliseet
> children in the Houlton area from their homes at more than five times the
> national average for American Indians, and placing them in mostly
> non-native foster homes, an Indian representative told a public hearing
> Monday.
>
>
> The state has taken 29 children from the 742-member Houlton Band of
> Maliseets during the past five years, and had 11 of them adopted into
> non-native homes, Rep. Donna M. Loring of the Penobscot Nation told the
> legislatively appointed Committee to Review the Child Protective System.
>
> “The loss of that many children to a tribe [of that number] is
> nothing less than genocide. When an Indian tribe loses its children it
> loses its future,” said Loring.
>
When a child is removed from their home they dont loose their genetic
code, their ability to reproduce, or their heritage. So, the question
is why make such a sensationalist statement?
One more little thing, why were the children removed? Nothing is
mentioned about that in the article.
> She added that the state was disregarding the Indian Child Welfare Act,
> intended to protect Indian children from being taken away from their
> culture and heritage. The 1978 federal law says that decisions about the
> welfare of Indian children should be made by the tribes themselves, without
> state interference.
>
That begs the question, why didnt the tribe step in and make some
decisions? Thats what the law says they should do, the child was on
the reservation (we assume), within their control, they had the first
and best oppertunity to do something at that time. Sure seems that
they didnt.
> Loring was one of several tribal advocates who spoke to the committee,
> which is investigating the child protective system.
>
Hmmm, thats sure to be an unbiased investigation, isn't it.
> She recommended that national experts train members of the Maine judiciary
> on the ICWA and that an Indian advocate act as a liaison between the courts
> and the tribes. In addition, she has submitted a bill that would allow
> members of the Houlton Band of Maliseets to bring their child welfare cases
> to the Penobscot Nation’s Tribal Court until they can create their
> own court system.
>
Finally, a reasonable idea.
> The state hasn’t followed ICWA stipulations that Indian children be
> placed first with extended family, Maliseet Chief Brenda Commander said.
Oh, here we go again.
1. If there are such relitives.
2. If they are willing to take the children in.
3. If they have the ability to care for them.
4. If they have the resources to care for them.
Having cared for at least one Native American, I can say that dealing
with the tribes in this nation is difficult at best. Their rules and
decisions dont often make sense to the likes of you or me, but the
system does seem to work for them. And thats a good thing, but when
someone not from their culture becomes involved the entire thing seems
to be complicated and non-sensical.
> The next options are tribal homes or other native homes. As a last choice,
> an Indian child may be placed with a non-native family.
>
Gee, just how many Native American's are foster parents in this
country? An interesting question.
> Of 18 open DHS cases involving Maliseet children, only four children have
> been placed into Maliseet homes.
Well, I guess that answers that question.
> Twelve have been identified as needing
> therapeutic foster care. Meanwhile, there are empty beds in the four native
> homes in Aroostook County licensed to give therapeutic care.
>
And just how far is Aroostook County from where these children live?
And just how many "empty beds" are there? 12? Somehow I dont think
so.
> The children removed from their homes represent 16 percent of the tribal
> enrollment for children under age 17, Commander said.
>
Sounds like the tribe needs to get off it's placid ass and get
involved.
> “These numbers only just begin to touch the tip of the iceberg. They
> fail to fully illustrate the blatant disregard the department has had in
> following the ICWA law, and the shady, if not sneaky, actions of the
> department’s workers and some foster parents.
Oh, yeah. Gee, they take children out of danger, and they are the bad
guys. The FP's take these kids into their home, and they are the bad
guys. Are we sure that kneal didnt write this one?
> We have had the belief
> that the goal of the department was to reunify children with their
> biological parents. More times than not this goal has been made
> unattainable by the department.”
>
Well, thats one side of the story. It's easy to toss these statements
around as truth when you know that the other side of the argument is
unable to respond due to privacy laws. Makes it a one sided argument.
You can say anything you like, as often as you like, truth or not.
The target can't fight back.
> Carole Francis, executive director for the Houlton Band of Maliseet
> Indians, said ICWA requires that families receive remedial services and
> rehabilitative programs so that they won’t be broken up. But the
> usual practice has been that services are provided to families only after
> children have been removed.
Please note again that there is no mention of "why" the children are
removed.
> Local DHS staff should be ordered to work more
> closely with the tribe when serving these families, she said.
>
> Francis also took issue with the court system, which she says often orders
> agencies to provide services to parents even though the tribe offers the
> same programs and services.
>
Gee, that means that they get twice the services that you or I get.
And they still dont think this is fair?
> Because native clients are more comfortable working with tribal agencies
> than with outsiders, tribal services have a better success rate. The
> department should refer native parents to tribal services first, she said.
>
> Also speaking for the Maliseets was Jane Root, the tribal domestic violence
> coordinator. Court-appointed guardians ad litem and attorneys should be
> trained in native culture so they can “look at the family through a
> different lens,” she said.
>
It would make more sense to have court-appointed guardians ad litem
and attorneys that are actual members of the tribe. Dont you think?
Ron
Neal Feldman
Ron wrote:
> free_...@my-deja.com wrote in message news:<20011107215415.702$3...@newsreader.com>...
>
> Lovely Article Free, now lets poke some holes in it shall we?
For someone who claims an ability to poke holes in things, MoRon Mitty, your history is
that of one who cannot poke holes in wet tissue even while wielding a pickaxe!
<chuckle>
> > http://www.bangornews.com/editorialnews/article.html?ID=45106
> >
> > Last updated: Tuesday, November 6, 2001
> >
> >
> > Indians question DHS actions
> > Number of children removed from homes 5 times national average
> >
> > AUGUSTA — The Department of Human Services is removing Maliseet
> > children in the Houlton area from their homes at more than five times the
> > national average for American Indians, and placing them in mostly
> > non-native foster homes, an Indian representative told a public hearing
> > Monday.
> >
> >
> > The state has taken 29 children from the 742-member Houlton Band of
> > Maliseets during the past five years, and had 11 of them adopted into
> > non-native homes, Rep. Donna M. Loring of the Penobscot Nation told the
> > legislatively appointed Committee to Review the Child Protective System.
> >
> > “The loss of that many children to a tribe [of that number] is
> > nothing less than genocide. When an Indian tribe loses its children it
> > loses its future,” said Loring.
>
> When a child is removed from their home they dont loose their genetic
> code, their ability to reproduce, or their heritage. So, the question
> is why make such a sensationalist statement?
Actually, in tribal situations, MoRon Mitty, they DO tend to lose their heritage and they
DO tend to lose their culture.
This is not a claim, this is not a statement. This is a well documented and proven FACT.
That is WHY the laws are set up to protect tribal cultures.
BTW... this is not a 'hole in the story', MoRon Mitty... just more evidence of your clear
and near infinite ignorance.
> One more little thing, why were the children removed? Nothing is
> mentioned about that in the article.
It is not what the article is about. Your lack of reason is again duly noted, MoRon
Mitty. You would have every article be a 500,000 page monstrosity detailing every breath
taken by everyone involved and then some.
> > She added that the state was disregarding the Indian Child Welfare Act,
> > intended to protect Indian children from being taken away from their
> > culture and heritage. The 1978 federal law says that decisions about the
> > welfare of Indian children should be made by the tribes themselves, without
> > state interference.
>
> That begs the question, why didnt the tribe step in and make some
> decisions?
Begging the question is a critical thinking flaw and logical fallacy, MoRon Mitty. I
realize that it we eliminate flawed critical thinking and logical fallacies from your
repetoire you will have nothing left, but too bad.
<chuckle>
> Thats what the law says they should do, the child was on
> the reservation (we assume), within their control, they had the first
> and best oppertunity to do something at that time. Sure seems that
> they didnt.
Their apparent decision was to not act. That is their right. You cannot have tribal
supremacy if they are simply required to do what the white men would do anyway. They have
the right to make their own decisions.
You ARE aware that the tribes are SOVERIGN NATIONS, right MoRon Mitty?
Apparently you are not.
> > Loring was one of several tribal advocates who spoke to the committee,
> > which is investigating the child protective system.
>
> Hmmm, thats sure to be an unbiased investigation, isn't it.
Why? Because they expose the corruption inherent in Gestapo CPS and how Gestapo CPS
routinely violates the civil, human, constitutional, due process and parental rights of
citizens (and others)?
> > She recommended that national experts train members of the Maine judiciary
> > on the ICWA and that an Indian advocate act as a liaison between the courts
> > and the tribes. In addition, she has submitted a bill that would allow
> > members of the Houlton Band of Maliseets to bring their child welfare cases
> > to the Penobscot Nation’s Tribal Court until they can create their
> > own court system.
>
> Finally, a reasonable idea.
This, MoRon Mitty, you consider to be a 'hole in the story'?
Funny... for someone that claimed they were going to 'poke a few holes' in the story you
seem to have proven, again, to be completely inept and incapable of doing so, MoRon Mitty.
Why do you think that is?
<chuckle>
> > The state hasn’t followed ICWA stipulations that Indian children be
> > placed first with extended family, Maliseet Chief Brenda Commander said.
>
> Oh, here we go again.
>
> 1. If there are such relitives.
> 2. If they are willing to take the children in.
> 3. If they have the ability to care for them.
> 4. If they have the resources to care for them.
Were such possibilities fully investigated and legitimately found to be an issue? Clearly
not, MoRon Mitty.
> Having cared for at least one Native American, I can say that dealing
> with the tribes in this nation is difficult at best. Their rules and
> decisions dont often make sense to the likes of you or me,
Which, to MoRon Mitty, translates into being wrong. Heck, REALITY clearly does not make
sense to you, MoRon Mitty... apparently due to your inability to deal with anything you do
not understand or cannot deal with. Why should laws dealing with tribes be any different?
> but the system does seem to work for them. And thats a good thing, but when someone not
> from their culture becomes involved the entire thing seems to be complicated and
> non-sensical.
Only to the outsider, MoRon Mitty... especially outsiders such as yourself who arrogantly
demand that things be done as their delusional state dictates.
<chuckle>
> > The next options are tribal homes or other native homes. As a last choice,
> > an Indian child may be placed with a non-native family.
>
> Gee, just how many Native American's are foster parents in this
> country? An interesting question.
Irrelevant, MoRon Mitty. The qualifications for such status imposed by the white man
government are irrelevant and inapplicable to the tribes.
But of course your arguments, specious and ludicrous as they are, are the SAME ones used
to almost eradicate native american culture historically, and the exact reason that the
laws you cannot comprehend were put into place.
<chuckle>
> > Of 18 open DHS cases involving Maliseet children, only four children have
> > been placed into Maliseet homes.
>
> Well, I guess that answers that question.
Yup... that Gestapo CPS continues the illegal, yes ILLEGAL, practice of decimating tribal
culture. Yes, MoRon Mitty, indeed it does.
> > Twelve have been identified as needing
> > therapeutic foster care. Meanwhile, there are empty beds in the four native
> > homes in Aroostook County licensed to give therapeutic care.
>
> And just how far is Aroostook County from where these children live?
Irrelevant, MoRon Mitty. These placement locations are available and the LAW states they
should be used before nontribal resources. Yet they are not. The law is clearly not
being followed, MoRon Mitty.
But why should I expect a dishonest and delusional Gestapo CPS apologist to recognize
this, huh MoRon Mitty? Hmmmm?
> And just how many "empty beds" are there? 12? Somehow I dont think
> so.
So, MoRon Mitty, what you 'think' (as laughable a concept as that is) should be
relevant... why?
Can you prove there are not 12?
Doesn't matter if you can. The fact remains that these LEGAL placements exist, but are
unused, while ILLEGAL practices are taking place.
And you clearly see nothing wrong with this at all.
Not surprising, MoRon Mitty... not where the likes of you are concerned!
<chuckle>
> > The children removed from their homes represent 16 percent of the tribal
> > enrollment for children under age 17, Commander said.
>
> Sounds like the tribe needs to get off it's placid ass and get
> involved.
They are, you incredible dimwit... that is, BTW, what you are whining and lying about in
case you had not noticed.
> > “These numbers only just begin to touch the tip of the iceberg. They
> > fail to fully illustrate the blatant disregard the department has had in
> > following the ICWA law, and the shady, if not sneaky, actions of the
> > department’s workers and some foster parents.
>
> Oh, yeah. Gee, they take children out of danger, and they are the bad
> guys.
They violate the law. Yes, they are bad guys, just like anyone else who violates a
legitimate law, MoRon Mitty.
And since Gestapo CPS has been shown to remove kids where 75-85+% of those removals are
wholly unjustified, why do you continue to defend these criminal actions by Gestapo CPS,
huh MoRon Mitty?
> The FP's take these kids into their home, and they are the bad guys.
When they commit criminal acts, as they clearly have done and are continuing to do, yes,
MoRon Mitty.. they are 'bad guys'. Deal with it.
It seems apparent that if someone took a machine gun and mowed down a hundred people in a
mall but was a foster parent you would let them off the hook for the crime because 'foster
parents aren't bad guys'.
ROTFLU!
> Are we sure that kneal didnt write this one?
Thank you, MoRon Mitty. The article is legitimate. I thank you for admitting that I am
too. The proof that your view of the world is 180 degrees out of phase with reality makes
such complaints by you into nothing but the highest praise, MoRon Mitty.
<chuckle>
> > We have had the belief
> > that the goal of the department was to reunify children with their
> > biological parents. More times than not this goal has been made
> > unattainable by the department.”
>
> Well, thats one side of the story.
Ah yes, MoRon Mitty's standard tactic when wholly disproved and discredited... to just
cavalierly dismiss everything against him and just claim it is 'just another opinion' or
'just one side of the story' without presenting any legitimately substantiated and
logically and reasonably presented 'other side'.
Typicial.
> It's easy to toss these statements around
Even easier for you to wallow in delusional denial and spew your ignorant nonsense, MoRon
Mitty.
> as truth when you know that the other side of the argument is
> unable to respond due to privacy laws.
Awwwwww... poor Gestapo CPS, huh?
If they are legitimate in their claims that the LAWS against child abuse and child neglect
have been violated all they need to do is press charges in a LEGITIMATE court... that
makes it a PUBLIC RECORD issue they can comment upon.
But guess what, MoRon Mitty? Gestapo CPS only does so in less than 3% of cases. And they
do not even win on most of those!
Really undermines their credibility, wouldn't you say? Especially since the data shows
how inept and corrupt they are.
> Makes it a one sided argument.
Sorry, MoRon Mitty, but as you cannot present anything to substantiate your claim that
there is anything significant more to the issue, your whining and ranting is, as usual,
wholly unsubstantiated and nothing but desperate grasping.
And what about the CLEAR PROOF of violation of ICWA law?
Or are you going to try and delusionally fabricate that there is somehow 'another side of
the story' which undoes that, huh?
> You can say anything you like, as often as you like, truth or not.
> The target can't fight back.
Oh, that one is rich!
So MoRon Mitty thinks that Gestapo CPS should be allowed to do ANYTHING it wants,
regardless of how heinous, evil, harmful and unjustified, and hide behind their
selfserving veils of secrecy and claim that they should not be reined in because 'no one
but them knows the full story'?
And people wonder why I use the term GESTAPO CPS to refer to these and their apologists.
They really shouldn't!
> > Carole Francis, executive director for the Houlton Band of Maliseet
> > Indians, said ICWA requires that families receive remedial services and
> > rehabilitative programs so that they won’t be broken up. But the
> > usual practice has been that services are provided to families only after
> > children have been removed.
>
> Please note again that there is no mention of "why" the children are
> removed.
Irrelevant, MoRon Mitty. Even if legitimately removed the proper legal procedures are
clearly not being followed. As such why would you ASS/U/ME that the removals are in any
way legitimate when the process being used clearly is not?
> > Local DHS staff should be ordered to work more
> > closely with the tribe when serving these families, she said.
> >
> > Francis also took issue with the court system, which she says often orders
> > agencies to provide services to parents even though the tribe offers the
> > same programs and services.
>
> Gee, that means that they get twice the services that you or I get.
> And they still dont think this is fair?
If the services are unneeded or undesired, then why should anyone be happy about them
being foisted onto these families, MoRon Mitty?
If I like how my home is furnished (maybe with family heirlooms) and some dogooder comes
around and decides to do an interior decoration deal on my home without my consent and
forces me to get rid of everything I own and deal with this unwanted new stuff, some might
appreciate it... some would not. And there is nothing at all wrong with the latter.
> > Because native clients are more comfortable working with tribal agencies
> > than with outsiders, tribal services have a better success rate. The
> > department should refer native parents to tribal services first, she said.
> >
> > Also speaking for the Maliseets was Jane Root, the tribal domestic violence
> > coordinator. Court-appointed guardians ad litem and attorneys should be
> > trained in native culture so they can “look at the family through a
> > different lens,” she said.
>
> It would make more sense to have court-appointed guardians ad litem
> and attorneys that are actual members of the tribe. Dont you think?
But if there are none such available, MoRon Mitty, then as she said the least they can be
is trained in tribal culture.
Nothing in your question alters what was said, MoRon Mitty. Your statement is non
sequitur and irrelevant.
As usual.
And also, as usual, for all of MoRon Mitty's claims of 'poking holes' not a single
legitimate and credible hole was poked by him.
MoRon Mitty still is batting ZERO on the poking holes front.
Should this surprise anyone?
<chuckle>
--
=============================================================
Home Page: http://members.home.net/silverstorm/
We will never rest until Gestapo CPS is completely abolished!
Ron
"Neal Feldman" <silve...@home.net> wrote in message
news:3BED5C3A...@home.net...
Really? Where? How? Maybe we can call the FBI to find it for them. Or
the NSA, hey what about the Whitehouse?
None of these things can be lost kneal, but you are sure willing to go to
some interesting extreme's to try and prove otherwise.
> This is not a claim, this is not a statement. This is a well documented
and proven FACT.
> That is WHY the laws are set up to protect tribal cultures.
>
Fact? The meaning of that term is lost on you, has been for a very long
time. So, given this little tidbit we are going to take into account the
source and assume that once again you dont have a clue.
> BTW... this is not a 'hole in the story', MoRon Mitty... just more
evidence of your clear
> and near infinite ignorance.
>
> > One more little thing, why were the children removed? Nothing is
> > mentioned about that in the article.
>
> It is not what the article is about. Your lack of reason is again duly
noted, MoRon
> Mitty. You would have every article be a 500,000 page monstrosity
detailing every breath
> taken by everyone involved and then some.
>
Sure seems to the rest of the planet that it is what the article is about,
but once again that fact is lost on you. No surprise there, but I thought
I'd point it out.
> > > She added that the state was disregarding the Indian Child Welfare
Act,
> > > intended to protect Indian children from being taken away from their
> > > culture and heritage. The 1978 federal law says that decisions about
the
> > > welfare of Indian children should be made by the tribes themselves,
without
> > > state interference.
> >
> > That begs the question, why didnt the tribe step in and make some
> > decisions?
>
> Begging the question is a critical thinking flaw and logical fallacy,
MoRon Mitty. I
> realize that it we eliminate flawed critical thinking and logical
fallacies from your
> repetoire you will have nothing left, but too bad.
>
Thank you very much for proving that you have never had any dealings with
Tribal Counsels.
> <chuckle>
>
> > Thats what the law says they should do, the child was on
> > the reservation (we assume), within their control, they had the first
> > and best oppertunity to do something at that time. Sure seems that
> > they didnt.
>
> Their apparent decision was to not act. That is their right. You cannot
have tribal
> supremacy if they are simply required to do what the white men would do
anyway. They have
> the right to make their own decisions.
>
> You ARE aware that the tribes are SOVERIGN NATIONS, right MoRon Mitty?
>
> Apparently you are not.
>
Actually, I have attended several Tribal Counsel sessions, in reference to
children I have cared for. So, I believe that I know a bit more about what
they are and how they operate than you.
If it were true that the tribe chose to make no decisions in this case, then
the entire argument by Rep. Donna M. Loring has no validity. The Counsel
made a decision, and her argument is nothing more than whining. Personally,
I dont believe that.
> > > Loring was one of several tribal advocates who spoke to the committee,
> > > which is investigating the child protective system.
> >
> > Hmmm, thats sure to be an unbiased investigation, isn't it.
>
> Why? Because they expose the corruption inherent in Gestapo CPS and how
Gestapo CPS
> routinely violates the civil, human, constitutional, due process and
parental rights of
> citizens (and others)?
>
Well, since your to blinded by your own ignorance to see the implications
it would be useless to explain it to you. A pretty common issue with you.
> > > She recommended that national experts train members of the Maine
judiciary
> > > on the ICWA and that an Indian advocate act as a liaison between the
courts
> > > and the tribes. In addition, she has submitted a bill that would allow
> > > members of the Houlton Band of Maliseets to bring their child welfare
cases
> > > to the Penobscot Nation’s Tribal Court until they can create
their
> > > own court system.
> >
> > Finally, a reasonable idea.
>
> This, MoRon Mitty, you consider to be a 'hole in the story'?
>
No, in case you misread it, I consider it to be a reasonable idea. Having
some problems with english kneal?
> Funny... for someone that claimed they were going to 'poke a few holes' in
the story you
> seem to have proven, again, to be completely inept and incapable of doing
so, MoRon Mitty.
>
> Why do you think that is?
>
> <chuckle>
>
> > > The state hasn’t followed ICWA stipulations that Indian children
be
> > > placed first with extended family, Maliseet Chief Brenda Commander
said.
> >
> > Oh, here we go again.
> >
> > 1. If there are such relitives.
> > 2. If they are willing to take the children in.
> > 3. If they have the ability to care for them.
> > 4. If they have the resources to care for them.
>
> Were such possibilities fully investigated and legitimately found to be an
issue? Clearly
> not, MoRon Mitty.
>
Clearly you are reading into the article far more than is present. But that
also is a common issue with you.
> > Having cared for at least one Native American, I can say that dealing
> > with the tribes in this nation is difficult at best. Their rules and
> > decisions dont often make sense to the likes of you or me,
>
> Which, to MoRon Mitty, translates into being wrong.
No. I ment what I wrote, and there is no need for you to "translate"
anything. If you cant understand what is being written then why do you
insist on "translating" it incorrectly? Try reading what is written from
now on, and if you cant then get one of your children to assist. By
"translating" what you obviously dont understand you only raise a flag at
the location of your ignorance.
> Heck, REALITY clearly does not make
> sense to you, MoRon Mitty... apparently due to your inability to deal with
anything you do
> not understand or cannot deal with. Why should laws dealing with tribes
be any different?
>
> > but the system does seem to work for them. And thats a good thing, but
when someone not
> > from their culture becomes involved the entire thing seems to be
complicated and
> > non-sensical.
>
> Only to the outsider, MoRon Mitty... especially outsiders such as yourself
who arrogantly
> demand that things be done as their delusional state dictates.
>
> <chuckle>
>
Did anyone see a "demand" of any kind in there? I sure didnt write one.
Maybe kneal is having trouble with the written language again.
> > > The next options are tribal homes or other native homes. As a last
choice,
> > > an Indian child may be placed with a non-native family.
> >
> > Gee, just how many Native American's are foster parents in this
> > country? An interesting question.
>
> Irrelevant, MoRon Mitty. The qualifications for such status imposed by
the white man
> government are irrelevant and inapplicable to the tribes.
>
Another flag indicating your ignorance. Your doing quite a good job of
showing it off.
> But of course your arguments, specious and ludicrous as they are, are the
SAME ones used
> to almost eradicate native american culture historically, and the exact
reason that the
> laws you cannot comprehend were put into place.
>
> <chuckle>
>
> > > Of 18 open DHS cases involving Maliseet children, only four children
have
> > > been placed into Maliseet homes.
> >
> > Well, I guess that answers that question.
>
> Yup... that Gestapo CPS continues the illegal, yes ILLEGAL, practice of
decimating tribal
> culture. Yes, MoRon Mitty, indeed it does.
>
> > > Twelve have been identified as needing
> > > therapeutic foster care. Meanwhile, there are empty beds in the four
native
> > > homes in Aroostook County licensed to give therapeutic care.
> >
> > And just how far is Aroostook County from where these children live?
>
> Irrelevant, MoRon Mitty. These placement locations are available and the
LAW states they
> should be used before nontribal resources. Yet they are not. The law is
clearly not
> being followed, MoRon Mitty.
>
Another instance where kneal is showing that he has absolutely no clue about
foster parents. And he was wondering why I wanted to verify his
experiences. You know what people, I dont believe he has ever had any
contact with the Oregon HHS system, and that his entire story is a lie. His
ignorance of the facts lends creedance to this idea.
> But why should I expect a dishonest and delusional Gestapo CPS apologist
to recognize
> this, huh MoRon Mitty? Hmmmm?
>
> > And just how many "empty beds" are there? 12? Somehow I dont think
> > so.
>
> So, MoRon Mitty, what you 'think' (as laughable a concept as that is)
should be
> relevant... why?
>
> Can you prove there are not 12?
>
> Doesn't matter if you can. The fact remains that these LEGAL placements
exist, but are
> unused, while ILLEGAL practices are taking place.
>
You have proven more than once that your grasp of legal concepts and the
specific laws governing foster care leaves much to be desired. Proving it
all again only serves to highlight your stupidity.
> And you clearly see nothing wrong with this at all.
>
> Not surprising, MoRon Mitty... not where the likes of you are concerned!
>
> <chuckle>
>
> > > The children removed from their homes represent 16 percent of the
tribal
> > > enrollment for children under age 17, Commander said.
> >
> > Sounds like the tribe needs to get off it's placid ass and get
> > involved.
>
> They are, you incredible dimwit... that is, BTW, what you are whining and
lying about in
> case you had not noticed.
>
Read the story again dipstick. How can you be that totally stupid?
It may be kneal, but your ignorance lends credence to the idea that YOU are
not.
The remainder of kneals rambling stupidity I snipped. No need for any more,
he has proven the things I was hoping he would. Baiting this poor slob
isn't really a contest, its like dynamiting fish in a bucket.
Ron
Neal Feldman
Ron wrote:
Yes, MoRon Mitty.. really. That is the entire BASIS for the ICWA laws. I
realize you are clealry as ignorant of this subject as you have proven to be
about every single other subject ever to come up here, but that changes nothing,
MoRon Mitty.
> Where? How?
By removing them from the culture their heritage and cultural identity is
usually (almost invariably) lost to one degree or another if not totally, MoRon
Mitty.
> Maybe we can call the FBI to find it for them. Or
> the NSA, hey what about the Whitehouse?
Your inane blathering and bleating is duly noted as such, MoRon Mitty.
> None of these things can be lost kneal,
You are so blind it is unbelievable, MoRon Mitty.
> but you are sure willing to go to
> some interesting extreme's to try and prove otherwise.
No extremes here other than you, MoRon Mitty. Extreme ignorance, for one.
> > This is not a claim, this is not a statement. This is a well documented
> and proven FACT.
> > That is WHY the laws are set up to protect tribal cultures.
>
> Fact?
Yes, MoRon Mitty. Fact. An alien concept to you apparently.
<chuckle>
> The meaning of that term is lost on you, has been for a very long
> time.
Thank you again, MoRon Mitty, for again clearly and conclusively proving that
your perception of the world is 180 degrees out of phase with reality.
> So, given this little tidbit we are going to take into account the
> source and assume that once again you dont have a clue.
More clearly delusional and ignorant blather and bleating on the part of MoRon
Mitty.
Duly noted as such.
> > BTW... this is not a 'hole in the story', MoRon Mitty... just more
> evidence of your clear
> > and near infinite ignorance.
> >
> > > One more little thing, why were the children removed? Nothing is
> > > mentioned about that in the article.
> >
> > It is not what the article is about. Your lack of reason is again duly
> noted, MoRon
> > Mitty. You would have every article be a 500,000 page monstrosity
> detailing every breath
> > taken by everyone involved and then some.
>
> Sure seems to the rest of the planet that it is what the article is about,
Actually not, MoRon Mitty. If it were (Can we all say DUH for MoRon Mitty to
make him feel at home?) it would have been mentioned in the article.
Sheesh!
> but once again that fact is lost on you. No surprise there, but I thought
> I'd point it out.
Again more ignorant blather and bleating from MoRon Mitty. What a surprise...
NOT!
<chuckle>
> > > > She added that the state was disregarding the Indian Child Welfare
> Act,
> > > > intended to protect Indian children from being taken away from their
> > > > culture and heritage. The 1978 federal law says that decisions about
> the
> > > > welfare of Indian children should be made by the tribes themselves,
> without
> > > > state interference.
> > >
> > > That begs the question, why didnt the tribe step in and make some
> > > decisions?
> >
> > Begging the question is a critical thinking flaw and logical fallacy,
> MoRon Mitty. I
> > realize that it we eliminate flawed critical thinking and logical
> fallacies from your
> > repetoire you will have nothing left, but too bad.
>
> Thank you very much for proving that you have never had any dealings with
> Tribal Counsels.
Actually I have, MoRon Mitty... clearly you have not, other than likely to have
them laugh you out of the room.
But that has nothing to do with what I just said, MoRon Mitty, now does it?
> > <chuckle>
> >
> > > Thats what the law says they should do, the child was on
> > > the reservation (we assume), within their control, they had the first
> > > and best oppertunity to do something at that time. Sure seems that
> > > they didnt.
> >
> > Their apparent decision was to not act. That is their right. You cannot
> have tribal
> > supremacy if they are simply required to do what the white men would do
> anyway. They have
> > the right to make their own decisions.
> >
> > You ARE aware that the tribes are SOVERIGN NATIONS, right MoRon Mitty?
> >
> > Apparently you are not.
>
> Actually, I have attended several Tribal Counsel sessions, in reference to
> children I have cared for. So, I believe that I know a bit more about what
> they are and how they operate than you.
You claim you have attended court hearings and you have demonstrated a clear
ignorance of how THOSE work, MoRon Mitty.
When are you going to figure out that you keep CLAIMING all these miraculously
convenient past and present histories, occupations, hobbies and experiences yet
you have yet to substantiate that you are even the foster parent you claim to
be.
When are you going to meet your burden of proof for your claims, MoRon Mitty?
You keep arguing by appeal to authority (btw ANOTHER flawed critical thinking
and logical fallacy tactic) without even bothering to substantiate your claimed
authority.
ROTFLU!
> If it were true that the tribe chose to make no decisions in this case, then
> the entire argument by Rep. Donna M. Loring has no validity. The Counsel
> made a decision, and her argument is nothing more than whining.
So you claim, MoRon Mitty. But since you lack even the basic comprehension of
mathematics, as well as the fact that your entire posting history is nothing but
logical fallacy, flawed critical thinking, dishonesty, delusion and idiocy
without a single substantiated fact, well... what can we say about your
credibility, MoRon Mitty, other than it is less than zero?
<chuckle>
> > > > Loring was one of several tribal advocates who spoke to the committee,
> > > > which is investigating the child protective system.
> > >
> > > Hmmm, thats sure to be an unbiased investigation, isn't it.
> >
> > Why? Because they expose the corruption inherent in Gestapo CPS and how
> Gestapo CPS
> > routinely violates the civil, human, constitutional, due process and
> parental rights of
> > citizens (and others)?
>
> Well, since your to blinded by your own ignorance
Again unsubstantiated blathering and bleating on the part of MoRon Mitty, duly
noted, which again shows clearly that your perception of the world is 180
degrees out of phase with reality, MoRon Mitty.
No surprises there.
> to see the implications
> it would be useless to explain it to you. A pretty common issue with you.
Only viewed by those like you, MoRon Mitty, whose perception of the world is 180
degrees out of phase with reality.
<chuckle>
> > > > She recommended that national experts train members of the Maine
> judiciary
> > > > on the ICWA and that an Indian advocate act as a liaison between the
> courts
> > > > and the tribes. In addition, she has submitted a bill that would allow
> > > > members of the Houlton Band of Maliseets to bring their child welfare
> cases
> > > > to the Penobscot Nation’s Tribal Court until they can create
> their
> > > > own court system.
> > >
> > > Finally, a reasonable idea.
> >
> > This, MoRon Mitty, you consider to be a 'hole in the story'?
>
> No, in case you misread it, I consider it to be a reasonable idea. Having
> some problems with english kneal?
You said you were going to point out 'holes in the story' when in fact I showed
you did not manage to find a single legitimate and credible 'hole in the story'
and you have done nothing to disprove my assessments... only augment them.
<chuckle>
> > Funny... for someone that claimed they were going to 'poke a few holes' in
> the story you
> > seem to have proven, again, to be completely inept and incapable of doing
> so, MoRon Mitty.
> >
> > Why do you think that is?
> >
> > <chuckle>
> >
> > > > The state hasn’t followed ICWA stipulations that Indian children
> be
> > > > placed first with extended family, Maliseet Chief Brenda Commander
> said.
> > >
> > > Oh, here we go again.
> > >
> > > 1. If there are such relitives.
> > > 2. If they are willing to take the children in.
> > > 3. If they have the ability to care for them.
> > > 4. If they have the resources to care for them.
> >
> > Were such possibilities fully investigated and legitimately found to be an
> issue? Clearly
> > not, MoRon Mitty.
>
> Clearly you are reading into the article far more than is present. But that
> also is a common issue with you.
Sorry, MoRon Mitty, but it is clearly you who are doing so.
But since logic and reason and rational thought are clearly such alien concepts
to the likes of you, MoRon Mitty, this is not surprising at all.
> > > Having cared for at least one Native American, I can say that dealing
> > > with the tribes in this nation is difficult at best. Their rules and
> > > decisions dont often make sense to the likes of you or me,
> >
> > Which, to MoRon Mitty, translates into being wrong.
>
> No. I ment what I wrote, and there is no need for you to "translate"
> anything.
Actually the implication is clear, MoRon Mitty. You can try and backpedal all
you like, it changes nothing.
> If you cant understand what is being written then why do you
> insist on "translating" it incorrectly?
You have yet to show I translated it incorrectly, MoRon Mitty. And your
ignorant bleatings continue to show that I did in fact translate it accurately.
You have yet to show otherwise, MoRon Mitty.
<chuckle>
> Try reading what is written from
> now on, and if you cant then get one of your children to assist.
Why should I take as gospel the text of a clearly and routinely proven LIAR such
as yourself, MoRon Mitty? Especially one who has proven himself so completely
ignorant of the issues as you have so consistently?
<chuckle>
> By "translating" what you obviously dont understand you only raise a flag at
> the location of your ignorance.
No, MoRon Mitty... I raise a flag on your dishonesty and delusion and ignorance.
<The rest of MoRon Mitty's dishonesty, delusion and braying idiocy mercifully
snipped.>