Hyperbaric Oxygen treatment of Adults with CP?
Chris Baty
with brain injuries on CBC Sunday. I was interested that 2 of the most
responsive patients were children with cerebral palsy. I was wondering if
anyone had tried it with any success? Is there any research going on? If
not, are there any specialist that would be willing to try it? Just curious
but kind of interested.
Thanks.
Chris B.
Dave L
http://hyperbaric-oxygen.com/ (a company who provide this treatment -
lots of background info but they do have a vested interest)
and
http://www.fseng.demon.co.uk/hot4cp/index.html (an UK users' site
with several useful links)
My daughter has CP and I have asked her specialists about hyperbaric
oxygen therapy for treatment of her cerebral palsy. Apparently, the
Jury is still out. Some good results have been reported and the theory
seems fine (see the first link) but I am currently unconvinced that
there has been sufficient independent research on the CP aspects.
On Tue, 4 May 1999 08:57:47 -0400, "Chris Baty" <cb...@mediaone.net>
wrote:
Mark Probert
<4BEDDB2E92454C90.829ADB68...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
> Chris, you may wish to try:
>
> http://hyperbaric-oxygen.com/ (a company who provide this treatment -
> lots of background info but they do have a vested interest)
>
> and
>
> http://www.fseng.demon.co.uk/hot4cp/index.html (an UK users' site
> with several useful links)
>
> My daughter has CP and I have asked her specialists about hyperbaric
> oxygen therapy for treatment of her cerebral palsy. Apparently, the
> Jury is still out. Some good results have been reported and the theory
> seems fine (see the first link)
They can rationalize revival of dead cells. Neural pathways stop developing
at the age of ten. Did they mention that?
but I am currently unconvinced that
> there has been sufficient independent research on the CP aspects.
Visit PublicMed at the NIH website and do a search. Your findings will
surprise you.
> On Tue, 4 May 1999 08:57:47 -0400, "Chris Baty" <cb...@mediaone.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I happened to catch the feature on hyperbaric oxygen treatment of people
> >with brain injuries on CBC Sunday. I was interested that 2 of the most
> >responsive patients were children with cerebral palsy. I was wondering if
> >anyone had tried it with any success? Is there any research going on? If
> >not, are there any specialist that would be willing to try it? Just curious
> >but kind of interested.
> >
> >Thanks.
> >Chris B.
> >
>
>
--
Mark Probert
I reserve the right to post any email, at my discretion, into the
newsgroup from where it originated. If you "post & mail" please state
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Mark Probert
<4BEDDB2E92454C90.829ADB68...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
> Chris, you may wish to try:
>
> http://hyperbaric-oxygen.com/ (a company who provide this treatment -
> lots of background info but they do have a vested interest)
I just read the entire site. Very interesting. Actually, extraordinarily
interesting for what it does not say. I could not find anything that clearly
states HBOT is useful for CP treatment.
Yes, HBOT is useful for many things. My neighbor is firefighter who was
seriously burned recently. He was treated with HBOT. For him, it was a
wonder.
Dr. Neubauer lists many things. Insurance pays for the following:
•Acute carbon monoxide intoxication •Decompression illness •Gas embolism •Gas
gangrene •Acute traumatic peripheral ischemia HBO therapy is a valuable
adjunctive treatment to be used in combination with accepted standard
therapeutic measures, when loss of function, limb or life is threatened.
•Crush injuries and suturing of severed limbs As in the previous conditions,
HBO therapy would be an adjunctive treatment, when loss of function, limb or
life is threatenend. •Necrotizing gasciitis is an adjunct treatment, as
above. •Acute peripheral arterial insufficiency •Preparation and preservation
of compromised skin grafts •Chronic refractory osteomyelitis, unresponsive to
conventional medical and surgical management •Osteoradionecrosis as an
adjunct to conventional treatment •Soft tissue radionecrosis as an adjunct to
conventional treatment •Cyanide poisoning •Actinomycosis, only as an adjunct
to conventional therapy when the disease process is refractory to antibiotics
and surgical treatment
The reader says WOW! look at all those things it helps. It sure is going to
help me. And the insurance companies pay for it. WOW!
There is no question that HBOT is a safe and effective treatment for these
conditions.
These conditions are the result of an anaerobic infection, or some form of
anoxia. With the former, the high pressure O2 acts as a poison gas and kills
the little buggers.
With the latter, there is a deficiency of O2, and the HBOT saturates the
blood with O2.
In ***none*** of these cases, does the HBOT restore life to dead cells or
cause lazy cells to "perk up."
After reading Dr. Neubauer's site, I am even more convinced that those who
sell HBOT for CP are vultures and want those with CP to be their dinner.
Dave L
<mark...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>In article
><4BEDDB2E92454C90.829ADB68...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>>, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
>
>> Chris, you may wish to try:
>>
>> http://hyperbaric-oxygen.com/ (a company who provide this treatment -
>> lots of background info but they do have a vested interest)
>
>I just read the entire site. Very interesting. Actually, extraordinarily
>interesting for what it does not say. I could not find anything that clearly
>states HBOT is useful for CP treatment.
>
>Yes, HBOT is useful for many things.
>
>In ***none*** of these cases, does the HBOT restore life to dead cells or
>cause lazy cells to "perk up."
>
>After reading Dr. Neubauer's site, I am even more convinced that those who
>sell HBOT for CP are vultures and want those with CP to be their dinner.
Yes, I tend to agree with you.
But there ARE reports of beneficial treatment for CP using HBOT, which
should not be ignored (see the link below). This doesn't mean you just
go ahead and try what is a completely unproven therapy. Keep an eye
open for new research and hope, but don't expect too much. I do a
Medline search every few months or so, not just on HBOT but for any
other potential therapies. But I won't let my daughter be a guinea
pig.
Some of the theory is interesting, though. The idea of dormant cells
surrounding the dead cells (in case of anoxic damage) lends itself to
a possibility that the dormant ones might be reactivated somehow. Who
knows, maybe the neural pathways as well. Not necessarily with HBOT.
Stroke victims can have some recovery, can't they? But only a minority
of CP (and learning disability) is known to be caused by lack of
oxygen/blood. Perhaps the best chance of an effective therapy would be
one for babies, like the head cooling now being introduced after birth
asphyxia. More research is needed.
All this is probably too late for my little girl ... except that in
common with most people with CP her disabilities, whilst permanent,
are not static. As in her case, I think there is often a slow
improvement in ability which can be developed, but therein lies a
problem. How can you prove that an improvement from any therapy would
not have occurred anyway? By controlled clinical trials, that's how.
But where are the trials on HBOT for CP?
Yes, HBOT for CP is definately unproven - try it at your own risk.
But I think I will keep an eye on it.
Don't forget the other link I gave
http://www.fseng.demon.co.uk/hot4cp/index.html
Click on the 'Opinions' button to read both sides of the argument.
Danielle Cossette
tried it, for parents that did those treatments and saw changes in their child,
it is frustrating to see posting like yours, always negative things to say about
it.
Before making negative comments about something, I know for myself that I would
make sure about my statements, and you are not sure, because you never did it!
Mark Probert wrote:
> In article
> <4BEDDB2E92454C90.829ADB68...@library-proxy.airnews.net
> >, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
>
> > Chris, you may wish to try:
> >
> > http://hyperbaric-oxygen.com/ (a company who provide this treatment -
> > lots of background info but they do have a vested interest)
>
> I just read the entire site. Very interesting. Actually, extraordinarily
> interesting for what it does not say. I could not find anything that clearly
> states HBOT is useful for CP treatment.
>
> In ***none*** of these cases, does the HBOT restore life to dead cells or
> cause lazy cells to "perk up."
>
> After reading Dr. Neubauer's site, I am even more convinced that those who
> sell HBOT for CP are vultures and want those with CP to be their dinner.
>
MBryt1
>Dr. Neubauer lists many things. Insurance pays for the following:
>
According to whose insurance policy? I think that may be up to the individual
to explore.
***************************************************
Mary - wife, mother, webpage designer,
cake decorator, and on and on....come visit me!
http://members.aol.com/MBryt1/index.html
***************************************************
Mark Probert
dcos...@newbridge.com wrote:
> You have to try it, you always say that you don't believe in it, but you never
> tried it, for parents that did those treatments and saw changes in their child,
> it is frustrating to see posting like yours, always negative things to say about
> it.
>
> Before making negative comments about something, I know for myself that I would
> make sure about my statements, and you are not sure, because you never did it!
Your argument is that since I have never tried it I do not know anything
about it, and I should not say negative things.
There are MANY things I have not tried, but know are not useful:
> I have never bought a perpetual motion machine. > I have jumped out of a
plane without a parachute. I have several combat drops, but never without a
parachute. > I have never given birht, but I know it is wonderful. > I
never say something in email that i would not post in public. You did. Shame
on you.
Oh, I am sure that HBOT has not been proven to be effective in trating CP.
Lots of other things, but not CP.
> Mark Probert wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <4BEDDB2E92454C90.829ADB68...@library-proxy.airnews.net
> > >, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > Chris, you may wish to try:
> > >
> > > http://hyperbaric-oxygen.com/ (a company who provide this treatment -
> > > lots of background info but they do have a vested interest)
> >
> > I just read the entire site. Very interesting. Actually, extraordinarily
> > interesting for what it does not say. I could not find anything that clearly
> > states HBOT is useful for CP treatment.
> >
> > Yes, HBOT is useful for many things. My neighbor is firefighter who was
> > seriously burned recently. He was treated with HBOT. For him, it was a
> > wonder.
> >
> > Dr. Neubauer lists many things. Insurance pays for the following:
> >
> > 柊cute carbon monoxide intoxication 疋ecompression illness 膝as embolism 膝as
> > gangrene 柊cute traumatic peripheral ischemia HBO therapy is a valuable
> > adjunctive treatment to be used in combination with accepted standard
> > therapeutic measures, when loss of function, limb or life is threatened.
> > 匹rush injuries and suturing of severed limbs As in the previous conditions,
> > HBO therapy would be an adjunctive treatment, when loss of function, limb or
> > life is threatenend. 逼ecrotizing gasciitis is an adjunct treatment, as
> > above. 柊cute peripheral arterial insufficiency 姫reparation and preservation
> > of compromised skin grafts 匹hronic refractory osteomyelitis, unresponsive to
> > conventional medical and surgical management 桧steoradionecrosis as an
> > adjunct to conventional treatment 百oft tissue radionecrosis as an adjunct to
> > conventional treatment 匹yanide poisoning 柊ctinomycosis, only as an adjunct
Mark Probert
mbr...@aol.com (MBryt1) wrote:
> >From: Mark Probert
>
> >Dr. Neubauer lists many things. Insurance pays for the following:
> >
>
> to explore.
Generally the rule is that insurance pays for something listed by the FDA as
safe and effective. Beyond that, it is up to the insurance company. As for
the list, ask Dr. Neubauer, it is his list, not mine.
>
> ***************************************************
>
> Mary - wife, mother, webpage designer,
> cake decorator, and on and on....come visit me!
> http://members.aol.com/MBryt1/index.html
>
> ***************************************************
>
>
--
Mark Probert
<CE38BAAAB06B7C65.D7755094...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
> On Wed, 05 May 1999 03:12:06 GMT, Mark Probert
> <mark...@my-dejanews.com> wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><4BEDDB2E92454C90.829ADB68...@library-proxy.airnews.net
> >>, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
> >
> >> Chris, you may wish to try:
> >>
> >> http://hyperbaric-oxygen.com/ (a company who provide this treatment -
> >> lots of background info but they do have a vested interest)
> >
> >I just read the entire site. Very interesting. Actually, extraordinarily
> >interesting for what it does not say. I could not find anything that clearly
> >states HBOT is useful for CP treatment.
> >
> >Yes, HBOT is useful for many things.
> >
> >In ***none*** of these cases, does the HBOT restore life to dead cells or
> >cause lazy cells to "perk up."
> >
> >After reading Dr. Neubauer's site, I am even more convinced that those who
> >sell HBOT for CP are vultures and want those with CP to be their dinner.
>
> Yes, I tend to agree with you.
>
> But there ARE reports of beneficial treatment for CP using HBOT, which
> should not be ignored
Anecdotal evidence can form the argument for clinical investigation.
>(see the link below).
I did, see below for opinion...
This doesn't mean you just
> go ahead and try what is a completely unproven therapy. Keep an eye
> open for new research and hope, but don't expect too much. I do a
> Medline search every few months or so, not just on HBOT but for any
> other potential therapies.
As do I. Since both of my kids are special needs, I keep up to date.
But I won't let my daughter be a guinea
> pig.
Anyone calling that adorable young lady a gineau pig will have to deal with
me.
> Some of the theory is interesting, though. The idea of dormant cells
> surrounding the dead cells (in case of anoxic damage) lends itself to
> a possibility that the dormant ones might be reactivated somehow.
That is highloy doubtful, since brain damage does not work that way.
Who
> knows, maybe the neural pathways as well. Not necessarily with HBOT.
> Stroke victims can have some recovery, can't they?
HBOT for a person who has had a stroke should provide some amelioration of
the damage. Cells are still functioning, and have not died. The O2 helps
those cells stay alive.
That is not what can happen in CP.
But only a minority
> of CP (and learning disability) is known to be caused by lack of
> oxygen/blood. Perhaps the best chance of an effective therapy would be
> one for babies, like the head cooling now being introduced after birth
> asphyxia. More research is needed.
You bet. I give a chunck to the March of Dimes every year.
> All this is probably too late for my little girl ... except that in
> common with most people with CP her disabilities, whilst permanent,
> are not static. As in her case, I think there is often a slow
> improvement in ability which can be developed, but therein lies a
> problem. How can you prove that an improvement from any therapy would
> not have occurred anyway? By controlled clinical trials, that's how.
> But where are the trials on HBOT for CP?
That's what I have been asking. Watch out for the nasty flames.
> Yes, HBOT for CP is definately unproven - try it at your own risk.
> But I think I will keep an eye on it.
>
> Don't forget the other link I gave
> http://www.fseng.demon.co.uk/hot4cp/index.html
> Click on the 'Opinions' button to read both sides of the argument.
I did visit that site. VERY interesting. Carefully done, and very seductive...
AFAIAC, the site is so well done that it is intentionally seductive and
misleading, ala a cult.
Several "opinions" which they claim are favorable (without mentioning CP) and
one, that appears to be written by a boob who lacks a fundamental
understanding of human physiology. This post is negative. It is so dumb, it
has got to be a plant.
I am also having a bit of a problem finding where these opinions were
allegedly published.
[For the whiners, I have dealt with cults vis-a-vis my older son. I have been
a certified diver for over thirty years, and I have over 1000 parachute jumps
from 500 feet to a 30K HALO insertion in combat zone. Mucxh of what is
published vis-a-vis hbot is right in my experience and training.]
Igor Soloviev
There is such suit [subj.] in Moscow child psycho-neurological hospital No.
18 (Russia) named SPACE SUIT. They have a small homepage in English, as I
remember and can seek an exact address.
For information, a course of therapy in Russia can't have a high cost.
Compare, one month in Moscow for one person costs near 200 (two hundred)
dollars (a humble flat and a food).
Sincerely, Peter Soloviev
C kathie
C kathie
with tpa in the acute phase) now post stroke using hbot. can u explain
differences in cp versus stroke.
i thought they both had alot in common, lack of oxy., but u r saying otherwise.
thanks kc
Mark Probert
I thought I explained it. A stroke has a sudden onset characterized by the
development of upper neurological signs. In the early stages, there is
cerebral ischemia, and the administration of hbot can counter act that. If
there is cellular necrosis, then hbot cannot reverse it.
I suggest you secure a copy of the written protocolused by Neubauer.
CP, defitionally, occurred perinatal, and there is no ischemia. The cells are
quite dead.
BTW, strokes can occur anywhere in the brain where blood flows. They are not
confined to the brainstem.
Mark Probert
It is a logical treatment for stroke, and the sooner the better.
As for traumatic brain injury, it probably depends on the nature and extent
of injury. I just returned from an accident scene where no treatment could
have helped the tbi.
Mark Probert
Good morning Pyotr:
In what section of Moskva is Hospital #18? Was it formerly known by another
name?
Igor Soloviev
>In what section of Moskva is Hospital #18? Was it formerly known by another
>name?
(Мичуринский проспект in Russian). It is a base of the rehabilitation centre
on spinal-brain diseases (not exact name!). Its page could be on
www.medmap.ru , but the name has been changed. The suit can be named as a
load suit (нагрузочный костюм in Russian).
Sincerely yours,
Pete Soloviev.
Mark Probert
"Igor Soloviev" <bea...@ts.ru> wrote:
> Hi, Mark!
> >In what section of Moskva is Hospital #18? Was it formerly known by another
> >name?
> It is in South-Western section of Moscow on Mitchurinsky prospect
> (Мичуринский проспект in Russian).
OK, I have a good idea of what you are referring to. While your attempt at
posting in Russian is appreciated, it lost a bit in the translation to
ascii...
I hope the net eventually develops the means to post multi-nationally. Since
so few people in the USA are able to communicate in Russian, it could be a
'secret code.'
It is a base of the rehabilitation centre
> on spinal-brain diseases (not exact name!). Its page could be on
> www.medmap.ru , but the name has been changed. The suit can be named as a
> load suit (нагрузочный костюм in Russian).
OK, I have it, and have located it. I may be visiting Moskva in the fall, and
I want to do a bit of, "probing."
> Sincerely yours,
> Pete Soloviev.
Danielle Cossette
right or wrong, I have to be convince about my statements otherwise I will not argue
with anyone, about the research study that was done in Montreal, you can check the
following site:
www.MarieEnfant.qc.ca for the results, I have a hard copy of it, the press conference
was done on January 28, so I imagine it is still there, the copy I have is in French,
but you probably can have it in English.
Mark Probert wrote:
> In article <37303E82...@newbridge.com>,
> dcos...@newbridge.com wrote:
>
> > You have to try it, you always say that you don't believe in it, but you never
> > tried it, for parents that did those treatments and saw changes in their child,
> > it is frustrating to see posting like yours, always negative things to say about
> > it.
> >
> > Before making negative comments about something, I know for myself that I would
> > make sure about my statements, and you are not sure, because you never did it!
>
> Your argument is that since I have never tried it I do not know anything
> about it, and I should not say negative things.
>
> There are MANY things I have not tried, but know are not useful:
>
> > I have never bought a perpetual motion machine. > I have jumped out of a
> plane without a parachute. I have several combat drops, but never without a
> parachute. > I have never given birht, but I know it is wonderful. > I
> never say something in email that i would not post in public. You did. Shame
> on you.
>
> Oh, I am sure that HBOT has not been proven to be effective in trating CP.
> Lots of other things, but not CP.
>
> > Mark Probert wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > > <4BEDDB2E92454C90.829ADB68...@library-proxy.airnews.net
> > > >, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
> > >
> > > > Chris, you may wish to try:
> > > >
> > > > http://hyperbaric-oxygen.com/ (a company who provide this treatment -
> > > > lots of background info but they do have a vested interest)
> > >
> > > I just read the entire site. Very interesting. Actually, extraordinarily
> > > interesting for what it does not say. I could not find anything that clearly
> > > states HBOT is useful for CP treatment.
> > >
> > > Yes, HBOT is useful for many things. My neighbor is firefighter who was
> > > seriously burned recently. He was treated with HBOT. For him, it was a
> > > wonder.
> > >
> > > Dr. Neubauer lists many things. Insurance pays for the following:
> > >
> > > •Acute carbon monoxide intoxication •Decompression illness •Gas embolism •Gas
> > > gangrene •Acute traumatic peripheral ischemia HBO therapy is a valuable
> > > adjunctive treatment to be used in combination with accepted standard
> > > therapeutic measures, when loss of function, limb or life is threatened.
> > > •Crush injuries and suturing of severed limbs As in the previous conditions,
> > > HBO therapy would be an adjunctive treatment, when loss of function, limb or
> > > life is threatenend. •Necrotizing gasciitis is an adjunct treatment, as
> > > above. •Acute peripheral arterial insufficiency •Preparation and preservation
> > > of compromised skin grafts •Chronic refractory osteomyelitis, unresponsive to
> > > conventional medical and surgical management •Osteoradionecrosis as an
> > > adjunct to conventional treatment •Soft tissue radionecrosis as an adjunct to
> > > conventional treatment •Cyanide poisoning •Actinomycosis, only as an adjunct
> > > to conventional therapy when the disease process is refractory to antibiotics
> > > and surgical treatment
> > >
> > > The reader says WOW! look at all those things it helps. It sure is going to
> > > help me. And the insurance companies pay for it. WOW!
> > >
> > > There is no question that HBOT is a safe and effective treatment for these
> > > conditions.
> > >
> > > These conditions are the result of an anaerobic infection, or some form of
> > > anoxia. With the former, the high pressure O2 acts as a poison gas and kills
> > > the little buggers.
> > >
> > > With the latter, there is a deficiency of O2, and the HBOT saturates the
> > > blood with O2.
> > >
> > > In ***none*** of these cases, does the HBOT restore life to dead cells or
> > > cause lazy cells to "perk up."
> > >
> > > After reading Dr. Neubauer's site, I am even more convinced that those who
> > > sell HBOT for CP are vultures and want those with CP to be their dinner.
> > >
Mark Probert
dcos...@newbridge.com wrote:
> You are allowed to your opinion,
Why, thanks for **allowing** me!
but I know for myself before saying loud something is
> right or wrong, I have to be convince about my statements
And I am convinced, and that is based on reading and research.
otherwise I will not argue
> with anyone, about the research study that was done in Montreal, you can check the
> following site:
>
> www.MarieEnfant.qc.ca for the results, I have a hard copy of it, the press conference
> was done on January 28, so I imagine it is still there, the copy I have is in French,
It is in French...
Was the "study" published in any peer reviewed journals? Do you know what
that is?
> but you probably can have it in English.
Nope.
There are several English links, none of which say that HBOT is useful for
CP. Hmmmm...do you see a pattern developing???
> > > > 柊cute carbon monoxide intoxication 疋ecompression illness 膝as embolism 膝as
> > > > gangrene 柊cute traumatic peripheral ischemia HBO therapy is a valuable
> > > > adjunctive treatment to be used in combination with accepted standard
> > > > therapeutic measures, when loss of function, limb or life is threatened.
> > > > 匹rush injuries and suturing of severed limbs As in the previous conditions,
> > > > HBO therapy would be an adjunctive treatment, when loss of function, limb or
> > > > life is threatenend. 逼ecrotizing gasciitis is an adjunct treatment, as
> > > > above. 柊cute peripheral arterial insufficiency 姫reparation and preservation
> > > > of compromised skin grafts 匹hronic refractory osteomyelitis, unresponsive to
> > > > conventional medical and surgical management 桧steoradionecrosis as an
> > > > adjunct to conventional treatment 百oft tissue radionecrosis as an adjunct to
> > > > conventional treatment 匹yanide poisoning 柊ctinomycosis, only as an adjunct
Dave L
dcossett I thought I would translate the article in question. I must
be mad! I only speak basic french. It will probably be Saturday before
I can finish (with a good french dictionary by my side). It is
currently 9.45 pm UK time.
If any fluent french speakers out there can beat me to it I will be
delighted!! The article name is:
*** Le projet pilote sur le traitement en oxigénothérapie
hyperbare... des résultats concluants ***
which translates (I think) to:
** The pilot project on the treatment in hyperbaric oxygen therapy ...
some conclusive results **
and the exact link is:
http://www.marieenfant.qc.ca/reflet/v11n3p3.htm
Watch this space ...
Dave L
----------------------------------------------------------
Dave L
*** Here is the HBOT report in English ***
>After reading the interesting dialogue between Mark and
>Danielle I thought I would translate the french article on HBOT from
Hospital Marie Enfant in Montreal. The full translation is below. The
URL is http://www.marieenfant.qc.ca/reflet/v11n3p3.htm
I must be mad! I only speak basic french. Read it at your own risk.
Please don't flame me for any inaccuracies - I have done my best.
It leaves many questions unanswered but at least it is a start - it
may prompt more research which the authors acknowledge is now needed.
However, this appears to be the best research effort so far. I hope
someone can obtain a more detailed version of this report from the
hospital, in English, and post it in the NG or ask the hospital to put
it on their website. Anyone live in Montreal? I'm off to bed (yawn...)
Dave L
--------
*****START OF TRANSLATION****
Hospital Marie Enfant
THE REFLECTION
Vol 11 - No. 3 - Feb 1999
The Pilot Project on treatment in hyperbaric oxygen therapy
...concluding results!
You have surely heard over recent months about the use of HBOT with
children suffering from cerebral motor deficits or from cerebral palsy
having received treatment in England with surprising results, because
this subject has been in the news on many occasions.
You will know that HBOT is a treatment which consists of
administration of oxygen at a concentration of 100% in a hyperbaric
chamber that is to say in a place where you can increase the ambient
atmospheric pressure. Anyway, HBOT isn't a new or marginal treatment
since this therapeutic approach has been used for many years in
medicine, particularly for the treatment of carbon monoxide poisoning
and for decompression sickness. In addition to the indications
recognised by all the medical community, HBOT has also been used for
the treatment of numerous systemic or neurological illnesses. All the
time, this has created much controversy since the proof of its
effectiveness hasn't always been done in a scientific and convincing
way, in many medical conditions where HBOT has been or is still used.
Anyway, this is the case in the treatment of children with cerebral
palsy, which pushed a group of researchers -- from Hospital Marie
Enfant, from Hospital Saint Justine, from the Cleghorn unit of HBOT
research, from the Seagram Centre of Sports Science at McGill
University and from the hyperbaric medicine service of Centre regional
hospital in Rimouski -- to undertake a prospective pilot study on the
effectiveness of HBOT on this [medical] condition.
This study has been carried out with children suffering from spastic
diplegia which is one of the most common forms of CP. These children
have been chosen because of the ease of measuring functional changes
with them by using standardised evaluation tools already validated in
an earlier study carried out on the effects of [radicellectomie ???]
25 children aged from 3 to 8 have participated in the project of whom
15 have been treated in Rimouski at the Centre regional hospital, in
collaboration with the Maritime Institute of Quebec, and 10 others in
the hyperbaric chamber of the house of Sporting Science of McGill
University. The children have all been evaluated at Hospital Marie
Enfant before and after 20 HBOT treatments, according to evaluation
protocol which included, amongst others, spasticity measurements,
global motor function, fine motor function and a parents'
questionnaire.
RESULT: the clinical observations do list numerous functional changes,
definite improvements, a large amount in the level of
[arousal/response] to communication. From statistical analysis of the
objective estimations [we] confirm these changes, more particularly on
the level of motor function like walking and the quality of sitting
position, similarly on the level of spasticity.
These results are surprising considering the small number of
treatments given (20), and of extreme importance because it's [a
question of] the first study documenting objectively the prospects of
beneficial effects of HBOT in the treatment of children suffering
from cerebral palsy.
Being aware that the results of one pilot study are subject to some
methological criticism which can be justified (observer bias, placebo
effect etc) and which is not necessarily sufficient to demonstrate in
an indisputable way the effectiveness of this form of treatment for
children suffering from cerebral palsy, the group of researchers are
proposing to enter into for a second time a controlled study,
prospective and double blind. This is necessary to convince the
scientific and international community of the validity of this form of
treatment in such kinds of children suffering from cerebral palsy who
could benefit throughout the world.
On the other hand, one such study, if the results appear to be
positive, certainly contributes to inducing the [RAMQ ???] and/or the
insurance companies to pay the cost of these treatments, in addition,
definitely to induce research workers to study the application of HBOT
in other forms of chronic and similar neurological suffering, like
cerebral vascular accidents and post-traumatic encephalopathies.
Dr Pierre Marois
for the team of researchers in the pilot project for treatment in HBOT
**** END OF TRANSLATION ****
Mark Probert
<3F5AFEF873BD425E.CA9B696F...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
>
> *** Here is the HBOT report in English ***
Outstanding effort Dave, thanks.
> >After reading the interesting dialogue between Mark and
> >Danielle I thought I would translate the french article on HBOT from
> Hospital Marie Enfant in Montreal. The full translation is below. The
> URL is http://www.marieenfant.qc.ca/reflet/v11n3p3.htm
>
> I must be mad! I only speak basic french. Read it at your own risk.
> Please don't flame me for any inaccuracies - I have done my best.
Which is better than many can do.
> It leaves many questions unanswered but at least it is a start - it
> may prompt more research which the authors acknowledge is now needed.
The sole question a pilot study shoud answer is whether more research should
be done. Otherwise, it proves nothing.
> However, this appears to be the best research effort so far. I hope
> someone can obtain a more detailed version of this report from the
> hospital, in English, and post it in the NG or ask the hospital to put
> it on their website. Anyone live in Montreal? I'm off to bed (yawn...)
I have emailed on of the principal researchers at McGill and hope for the
best. I note that this is NOT the study report, but an article on the study.
I usually can take a study, and an article written about it, and find a 30%
error rate in the article.
> Dave L
> --------
>
> *****START OF TRANSLATION****
>
> Hospital Marie Enfant
>
> THE REFLECTION
>
> Vol 11 - No. 3 - Feb 1999
>
> The Pilot Project on treatment in hyperbaric oxygen therapy
> ...concluding results!
>
> You have surely heard over recent months about the use of HBOT with
> children suffering from cerebral motor deficits or from cerebral palsy
> having received treatment in England with surprising results, because
> this subject has been in the news on many occasions.
>
> You will know that HBOT is a treatment which consists of
> administration of oxygen at a concentration of 100% in a hyperbaric
> chamber that is to say in a place where you can increase the ambient
> atmospheric pressure. Anyway, HBOT isn't a new or marginal treatment
> since this therapeutic approach has been used for many years in
> medicine, particularly for the treatment of carbon monoxide poisoning
> and for decompression sickness.
And as treatment for burns and aenerobic infections.
In addition to the indications
> recognised by all the medical community, HBOT has also been used for
> the treatment of numerous systemic or neurological illnesses. All the
> time, this has created much controversy since the proof of its
> effectiveness hasn't always been done in a scientific and convincing
> way, in many medical conditions where HBOT has been or is still used.
Exactly the point I make. There is **always** the question of reliability of
any study.
What I would like to find is the time span between first and last reatments,
and whether any other therapy was conducted.
> Being aware that the results of one pilot study are subject to some
> methological criticism which can be justified (observer bias, placebo
> effect etc) and which is not necessarily sufficient to demonstrate in
> an indisputable way the effectiveness of this form of treatment for
> children suffering from cerebral palsy, the group of researchers are
> proposing to enter into for a second time a controlled study,
> prospective and double blind. This is necessary to convince the
> scientific and international community of the validity of this form of
> treatment in such kinds of children suffering from cerebral palsy who
> could benefit throughout the world.
Ooooops. The purpose of a study is NOT to convince. This is a classic reason
why I hate articles on studies. Bull like this is probably the writers idea.
> On the other hand, one such study, if the results appear to be
> positive, certainly contributes to inducing the [RAMQ ???] and/or the
> insurance companies to pay the cost of these treatments,
Not in the US it won't. Insurance companies pay for FDA approved programs.
in addition,
> definitely to induce research workers to study the application of HBOT
> in other forms of chronic and similar neurological suffering, like
> cerebral vascular accidents and post-traumatic encephalopathies.
This is the purpose of a pilot. It says, lets spend some real money trying
this out.
> Dr Pierre Marois
> for the team of researchers in the pilot project for treatment in HBOT
Well, it probably lost something in the translation.... ;)
>
> **** END OF TRANSLATION ****
>
--
Danielle Cossette
For the English Report please see the following:
This is a Foundation website that parents from Ottawa started, which I am part of
a while back, and they just put the study on there and it is in English. Also
look at the children's profile, if you're not convince of the benefits of HBO.
Danielle
Dave L
professional translation. It is a copy of my ROUGH translation lifted
from the NG. But the "health warning" I gave i.e. Read it at your own
risk" etc is not included.
I am staggered. Is this what you get for trying to help? I am a BASIC
french speaker. I did it to help myself and others in the NG to
understand what was going on.
The site whilst interesting, looks far too much like a commercial one
for my liking. No doubt that will generate another thread ...
What we need is a professional translation preferably of the full
study. Will whoever is responsible for posting my ROUGH AND POSSIBLY
INCORRECT translation on the hot4cp site please get it removed from
the site and replaced by a PROFESSIONAL TRANSLATION preferably of the
complete study.
Gosh - who do I sound like now ? :-)
I will now try to email a copy of this posting to the site concerned.
If my rough translation isn't removed I will email Hospital Marie
Enfant and McGill University.
Dave L ........... trying to keep smiling :-)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
On Mon, 10 May 1999 08:31:57 -0400, Danielle Cossette
<dcos...@newbridge.com> wrote:
>To all,
>
>For the English Report please see the following:
>
>http://welcome.to/hot4cp
>
>This is a Foundation website that parents from Ottawa started, which I am part of
>a while back, and they just put the study on there and it is in English. Also
>look at the children's profile, if you're not convince of the benefits of HBO.
>
>Danielle
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>*** Here is the HBOT report in English ***
>
>>After reading the interesting dialogue between Mark and
>>Danielle I thought I would translate the french article on HBOT from
>Hospital Marie Enfant in Montreal. The full translation is below. The
>URL is http://www.marieenfant.qc.ca/reflet/v11n3p3.htm
>
>I must be mad! I only speak basic french. Read it at your own risk.
>Please don't flame me for any inaccuracies - I have done my best.
>
>It leaves many questions unanswered but at least it is a start - it
>may prompt more research which the authors acknowledge is now needed.
>
>However, this appears to be the best research effort so far. I hope
>someone can obtain a more detailed version of this report from the
>hospital, in English, and post it in the NG or ask the hospital to put
>it on their website. Anyone live in Montreal? I'm off to bed (yawn...)
>
>Dave L
>--------
>
>*****START OF TRANSLATION****
>
>Hospital Marie Enfant
>
>THE REFLECTION
>
> Vol 11 - No. 3 - Feb 1999
>
>The Pilot Project on treatment in hyperbaric oxygen therapy
>...concluding results!
>
>You have surely heard over recent months about the use of HBOT with
>children suffering from cerebral motor deficits or from cerebral palsy
>having received treatment in England with surprising results, because
>this subject has been in the news on many occasions.
>
>You will know that HBOT is a treatment which consists of
** snipped for brevity **
SkeptiJess
translation. It is a copy of my ROUGH translation lifted
from the NG. But the "health warning" I gave i.e. Read it at your own risk" etc
is not included.
I am staggered. Is this what you get for trying to help? I am a BASIC french
speaker. I did it to help myself and others in the NG to
understand what was going on. The site whilst interesting, looks far too much
like a commercial one for my liking. No doubt that will generate another thread
...
What we need is a professional translation preferably of the full study. Will
whoever is responsible for posting my ROUGH AND POSSIBLY INCORRECT translation
on the hot4cp site please get it removed from
the site and replaced by a PROFESSIONAL TRANSLATION preferably of the
complete study. ... <<Dave L
Well, Dave -- I checked out the site and it does appear to be an exact copy of
your translation. I hope you are able to find the person or persons
responsible and have your translation removed.
And, I feel you responded to this outrage with a good deal of grace and tact.
Certainly much more gracefully and tactfully than I would have done!
About the rest of the site -- It seems like a straightforward commercial site
to me. The children's profiles included were just anecdotal accounts and were
not (to me) any kind of scientific evidence as to the effiency of HBOT for CP.
And, the piracy of Dave's translation does not speak well of the ethics of the
people in charge of the site. The jury is still out here in San Diego.
Jess
Mother & Skeptic
Mark Probert
<C139506F5581472B.69814EBD...@library-proxy.airnews.net
>, da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
> The English Report on hot4cp website is NOT an official or
> professional translation. It is a copy of my ROUGH translation lifted
> from the NG. But the "health warning" I gave i.e. Read it at your own
> risk" etc is not included.
That really sounds like dirty pool. Every time something like this is
perpetrated by some advocates of alternative treatment, I wait (but do not
hold my breath) for the other advocates of alternative treatments to
criticize this action.
I AM WAITING!
> I am staggered. Is this what you get for trying to help? I am a BASIC
> french speaker. I did it to help myself and others in the NG to
> understand what was going on.
That was obvious. So, I wonder what their motivation is?
> The site whilst interesting, looks far too much like a commercial one
> for my liking. No doubt that will generate another thread ...
It is not worth it.
> What we need is a professional translation preferably of the full
> study. Will whoever is responsible for posting my ROUGH AND POSSIBLY
> INCORRECT translation on the hot4cp site please get it removed from
> the site and replaced by a PROFESSIONAL TRANSLATION preferably of the
> complete study.
Ask the webmaster. Post the answer.
> Gosh - who do I sound like now ? :-)
An intellectually honest truth seeker?
> I will now try to email a copy of this posting to the site concerned.
> If my rough translation isn't removed I will email Hospital Marie
> Enfant and McGill University.
Make sure you send a translation ;)
> Dave L ........... trying to keep smiling :-)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Mon, 10 May 1999 08:31:57 -0400, Danielle Cossette
> <dcos...@newbridge.com> wrote:
>
> >To all,
> >
> >For the English Report please see the following:
> >
> >http://welcome.to/hot4cp
> >
> >This is a Foundation website that parents from Ottawa started, which I am part of
> >a while back, and they just put the study on there and it is in English. Also
> >look at the children's profile, if you're not convince of the benefits of HBO.
> >
> >Danielle
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> >*** Here is the HBOT report in English ***
> >
> >>After reading the interesting dialogue between Mark and
> >>Danielle I thought I would translate the french article on HBOT from
> >Hospital Marie Enfant in Montreal. The full translation is below. The
> >URL is http://www.marieenfant.qc.ca/reflet/v11n3p3.htm
> >
> >I must be mad! I only speak basic french. Read it at your own risk.
> >Please don't flame me for any inaccuracies - I have done my best.
> >
> >It leaves many questions unanswered but at least it is a start - it
> >may prompt more research which the authors acknowledge is now needed.
> >
> >However, this appears to be the best research effort so far. I hope
> >someone can obtain a more detailed version of this report from the
> >hospital, in English, and post it in the NG or ask the hospital to put
> >it on their website. Anyone live in Montreal? I'm off to bed (yawn...)
> >
> >Dave L
> >--------
> >
> >*****START OF TRANSLATION****
> >
> >Hospital Marie Enfant
> >
> >THE REFLECTION
> >
> > Vol 11 - No. 3 - Feb 1999
> >
> >The Pilot Project on treatment in hyperbaric oxygen therapy
> >...concluding results!
> >
> >You have surely heard over recent months about the use of HBOT with
> >children suffering from cerebral motor deficits or from cerebral palsy
> >having received treatment in England with surprising results, because
> >this subject has been in the news on many occasions.
> >
> >You will know that HBOT is a treatment which consists of
>
> ** snipped for brevity **
>
--
Mark Probert
I reserve the right to post any email, at my discretion, into the
newsgroup from where it originated. If you "post & mail" please state
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
---Share what you know. Learn what you don't.---
Mark Probert
skept...@cs.com (SkeptiJess) wrote:
> About the rest of the site -- It seems like a straightforward commercial site
> to me. The children's profiles included were just anecdotal accounts and were
> not (to me) any kind of scientific evidence as to the effiency of HBOT for CP.
> And, the piracy of Dave's translation does not speak well of the ethics of the
> people in charge of the site. The jury is still out here in San Diego.
Dave did it with class...
Now, about you living in SD, my home away from home when I was growing up...I
watched Jack Murphy being built,,,spent part of my honeymoon at the Hotel
Del...
I still have family in El Cajon and an elderly aunt (she's 96) live in an
adult home in La Mesa. What part are you in?
I was born a bit north of you, town called Trona. See if you can find it on
your map. The morning of that day, my Dad shot a mountain lion who was about
to attack my mother, who was getting water at the well. (I bet the Amen
Chorus would have cheered for the mountain lion).
> Jess
> Mother & Skeptic
Mark Probert
proxy.airnews.net>,
da...@sorry.noemails.free-online.co.uk wrote:
Dave, sad to say that this is typical behavior of the pushers of
unproven alternative therapies.
I am an "old timer" in alt.support.attn-defict since my older son has
it. We are plagued by the dishonest creeps who do such things.
I have unmasked another fraud, and will post in that group under the
title Flifer's Feingold Fraud. If you want to read about dirt, read
this one.
I am going to post your message here to alt.support.attn-deficit to
bring out the level of dishonesty that these creeps are lowering
themselves to.
> The English Report on hot4cp website is NOT an official or
> professional translation. It is a copy of my ROUGH translation lifted
> from the NG. But the "health warning" I gave i.e. Read it at your own
> risk" etc is not included.
>
> I am staggered. Is this what you get for trying to help? I am a BASIC
> french speaker. I did it to help myself and others in the NG to
> understand what was going on.
>
> The site whilst interesting, looks far too much like a commercial one
> for my liking. No doubt that will generate another thread ...
>
> What we need is a professional translation preferably of the full
> study. Will whoever is responsible for posting my ROUGH AND POSSIBLY
> INCORRECT translation on the hot4cp site please get it removed from
> the site and replaced by a PROFESSIONAL TRANSLATION preferably of the
> complete study.
>
> Gosh - who do I sound like now ? :-)
>
> I will now try to email a copy of this posting to the site concerned.
> If my rough translation isn't removed I will email Hospital Marie
> Enfant and McGill University.
>
> Dave L ........... trying to keep smiling :-)
> -------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> On Mon, 10 May 1999 08:31:57 -0400, Danielle Cossette
> <dcos...@newbridge.com> wrote:
>
> >To all,
> >
> >For the English Report please see the following:
> >
> >http://welcome.to/hot4cp
> >
> >This is a Foundation website that parents from Ottawa started, which
I am part of
> >a while back, and they just put the study on there and it is in
English. Also
> >look at the children's profile, if you're not convince of the
benefits of HBO.
> >
> >Danielle
> >
> >
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------
>
> >*** Here is the HBOT report in English ***
> >
> >>After reading the interesting dialogue between Mark and
> >>Danielle I thought I would translate the french article on HBOT
from
> >Hospital Marie Enfant in Montreal. The full translation is below. The
> >URL is http://www.marieenfant.qc.ca/reflet/v11n3p3.htm
> >
> >I must be mad! I only speak basic french. Read it at your own risk.
> >Please don't flame me for any inaccuracies - I have done my best.
> >
> >It leaves many questions unanswered but at least it is a start - it
> >may prompt more research which the authors acknowledge is now needed.
> >
> >However, this appears to be the best research effort so far. I hope
> >someone can obtain a more detailed version of this report from the
> >hospital, in English, and post it in the NG or ask the hospital to
put
> >it on their website. Anyone live in Montreal? I'm off to bed
(yawn...)
> >
> >Dave L
> >--------
> >
> >*****START OF TRANSLATION****
> >
> >Hospital Marie Enfant
> >
> >THE REFLECTION
> >
> > Vol 11 - No. 3 - Feb 1999
> >
> >The Pilot Project on treatment in hyperbaric oxygen therapy
> >...concluding results!
> >
> >You have surely heard over recent months about the use of HBOT with
> >children suffering from cerebral motor deficits or from cerebral
palsy
> >having received treatment in England with surprising results,
because
> >this subject has been in the news on many occasions.
> >
> >You will know that HBOT is a treatment which consists of
>
> ** snipped for brevity **
>
--
Mark Probert
I reserve the right to post any email, at my discretion, into the
newsgroup from where it originated. If you "post & mail" please state
SkeptiJess
on your map. The morning of that day, my Dad shot a mountain lion who was about
to attack my mother, who was getting water at the well. (I bet the Amen
We live in Rancho Penasquitos -- about 25 miles north of downtown SD, been here
7 years. We've also lived in Norfolk, VA (and will be returning to that area
next year -- my husband has orders to the USS Nimitz), but I was raised here in
San Diego (in Clairemont) and I know where Trona is -- way out in the sticks!
Anyway, I'm glad the lion didn't get your mom! This board needs all the
critical thinkers it has!
Jess -
Mother & Skeptic
SAS4988
ARE THE RISKS AND BENEFITS INVOLVED. IN ADDITION, AM CURIOUS IN THE FINDINGS
THAT SUGGEST THAT VERY LITTLE CP CASES ARE ACTUALLY CAUSED BY LACK OF O2/BLOOD
TO THE AFFECTED BRAIN TISSUE. HOW WERE THESE CONCLUSIONS DERIVED, AND WHAT
KIND OF RESEARCH WAS DONE TO DETERMINE THIS. THANKS SO MUCH