Herpesviruses secrete phony IL-10; might cause autoimmune risk
Kofi
(Tregs). When I found out I had a raging CMV infection<1>, I ran a
literature search cross-referencing members of the herpesvirus family
with vitamin D3 to see if I could explain why oral supplementation with
D3 is much less effective for me than UV exposure. Well, it turns out
my hunch might be right. CMV interferes with at least one pathway
downstream of vitamin D3 - namely, IL-10. There's precious little on it
in the literature, though.
<1> An infection which improved when I quit eating turkey, by the way.
IDO degrades tryptophan and has antiviral and antimicrobial properties.
IDO can be blocked by surplus tryptophan - which you can find in turkey.
Med Hypotheses. 2008;71(1):85-90.
A unifying multiple sclerosis etiology linking virus infection,
sunlight, and vitamin D, through viral interleukin-10.
Hayes CE, Donald Acheson E.
Department of Biochemistry, University of Wisconsin, Madison, 433
Babcock Drive, Madison, WI 53706, USA.
Multiple sclerosis (MS) is a neurodegenerative disease of uncertain
etiology. In MS, neurodegeneration is thought to be secondary to
autoimmune-mediated damage. However, no cohesive explanation yet exists
as to how environmental factors interact to induce a neurodegenerative
autoimmune response. Insufficient sunlight exposure and chronic viral
infections have been proposed as unrelated environmental risk factors
for MS. We suggest that these risk factors may act synergistically to
enable the pathogenic autoimmune response. Low ultraviolet light (UVL)
exposure depletes vitamin D3 stores, and low vitamin D3 levels correlate
strongly with high MS risk. The central nervous system converts vitamin
D3 into 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D3 (1,25-(OH)2 D3), a biologically active
hormone with anti-inflammatory and neuro-protective functions that
depend on IL-10-producing regulatory lymphocytes. Herpesvirus infection
also correlates with MS risk. Some herpesviruses like Epstein-Barr virus
produce an IL-10-like cytokine termed vIL-10. We hypothesize that vIL-10
may induce a dysfunction of IL-10-producing regulatory lymphocytes,
thereby undermining the protective functions of sunlight, vitamin D3,
and 1,25-(OH)2 D3. The vIL-10 could elicit a host immune response
capable of neutralizing or depleting IL-10, or the vIL-10 could compete
with IL-10 but fail to perform an essential IL-10 function. In either
case, the lack of sunlight exposure and the herpes virus infection might
synergize to induce a defect in IL-10-producing regulatory lymphocyte
function that undermines self-tolerance mechanisms and enables a
pathogenic autoimmune response to neural proteins.
Publication Types:
* Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't
PMID: 18387750
Robert Miles
"Kofi" <ko...@anon.un> wrote in message
news:kofi-E026EB.0...@news.east.earthlink.net...
> IL-10 is a cytokine vital to the functioning of regulatory T-cells
> (Tregs). When I found out I had a raging CMV infection<1>, I ran a
> literature search cross-referencing members of the herpesvirus family
> with vitamin D3 to see if I could explain why oral supplementation with
> D3 is much less effective for me than UV exposure. Well, it turns out
> my hunch might be right. CMV interferes with at least one pathway
> downstream of vitamin D3 - namely, IL-10. There's precious little on it
> in the literature, though.
>
Have you found this yet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleukin
Kofi
Miles" <rober...@bellsouthNOSPAM.net> wrote:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleukin
How does this relate to virally produced faux IL-10 and interference in
vitamin D3 metabolism?
Robert Miles
"Kofi" <ko...@anon.un> wrote in message
It's one of the few web sites I've found that even mention IL-10.
I believe all of the others were found in a quick look through newsgroup
alt.support.crohns-colitis. Note that Google searches seldom find
newsgroup posts now; they used to.
Robert Miles
"Robert Miles" <rober...@bellsouthNOSPAM.net> wrote in message
news:%7KEk.43219$vX2....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
more:
http://www.pnas.org/content/98/24/13913.full
http://www.nature.com/mt/journal/v11/n1s/abs/mt2005248a.html
http://ajrccm.atsjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/161/5/1518
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12606512
http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/reprint/52/3/708.pdf
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18021365
Google seems to have improved its results for searches for IL-10.
I found these:
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=gene&list_uids=3586>
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10623821
http://www1.va.gov/environagents/docs/IL-10-2007-001_Sarcoid.pdf
http://www.genenames.org/data/hgnc_data.php?hgnc_id=5962
http://www.dsi.univ-paris5.fr/genatlas/fiche.php?symbol=IL10
http://expasy.org/uniprot/P22301
http://www.uniprot.org/uniprot/P22301
jackson...@googlemail.com
that herpesviri modulate the immune system towards a Th2 shift by
producing the necessary ILs. However we still lack efficient methods
of diagnosis as well as treatment.
trigonometry1972@gmail.com |
Question: do you suppose the UV is more
effective because you get a larger dose
of vitamin D by way synthesis than the
doses you've chosen to take? Or could
it be the UV has other interactions
with your body? I am just brain storming.
I got 65 hits on Pubmed with IL-10 and
calcitriol. Not all contain relevant
information but at least some seem
on relevant. Anyway sometimes a systematic
series of searches with various search
words can reveal additional information
in my experience.
Thanks for the posting.....it was
near something I've been thinking about
a little.
Anyway it seems I'll be taking 6000 IU
of cholecalciferol per day for the Autumn and Winter months.
Understand my interest is life extension but
I know persons with some the disease processes that additional vitamin
D3 can benefit.
This looks interesting:
: Eur J Immunol. 2008 Aug;38(8):2210-8.
1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) promotes IL-10 production in human B cells.
Heine G, Niesner U, Chang HD, Steinmeyer A, Zügel U, Zuberbier T,
Radbruch A,
Worm M.
Allergy-Center-Charité, CCM, Department of Dermatology and Allergy,
Charité -
Universitätsmedizin Berlin, Berlin, Germany.
1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) (calcitriol) regulates immune responses,
e.g., inhibits expression of IgE by B cells and enhances expression of
IL-10 by
dendritic cells and T cells. We report here that activation of human B
cells by B cell receptor, CD40 and IL-4 signals induces expression of
the gene for
25-hydroxyvitamin-D3-1alpha-hydroxylase (CYP1alpha). Accordingly,
these B cells generate and secrete significant amounts of calcitriol.
In activated B cells calcitriol induces expression of the genes Cyp24,
encoding a vitamin D hydroxylase, and Trpv6, encoding a calcium
selective channel protein. Calcitriol enhances IL-10 expression of
activated B cells more than threefold, both by recruiting the vitamin
D receptor to the promoter of Il-10, and to lesser extent by
modulation of calcium-dependent signaling. The molecular link in
activated B
cells between vitamin D signaling, expression of IgE and IL-10, and
their ability to produce calcitriol from its precursor, suggest that
pro-vitamin D
(25-hydroxyvitamin D(3)) can be used as a modulator of allergic immune
responses.
PMID: 18651709 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Trig
Kofi
> effective because you get a larger dose
> of vitamin D by way synthesis than the
> doses you've chosen to take? Or could
> it be the UV has other interactions
> with your body? I am just brain storming.
Aye, there's the rub.
I'm taking 6000IU orally and getting a 125,000IU bolus depot shot in
muscle every month. That adds up to around 10,000IU daily. When I
first started the oral dose at 10,000IU, I felt great for a few days and
then the effects began to fade. I had a lot of energy, my allergies and
swelling were much improved - basically all the symptoms you'd expect
with low D3 faded away and I felt normal again. I can't get that from
an oral dose any longer but when I'm exposed to at least an hour of
daylight, the vitamin D3-associated symptoms fade again. It's
miraculous.
Given that an oral dose produced a beneficial response the first few
times I tried it, I don't think I'm having problems with transport and
absorption - at least not initially. Taking the extra D3 may have set
something into motion, though, that then inhibited uptake or
metabolization. I suspect a pathogen of some sort gumming up the works
but it might be a metabolic break. I'm at a loss here. I don't see how
metabolism should matter since I'm consuming the final product (D3) and
not a precursor.
My physician said something about carnitine and D3 sharing a transporter
but I've been unable to find anything really on it. He said the paper
was recent but none of my searches have turned up anything. I mentioned
carnitine transporters OCTN2 and Atb0+ to him - which I have speculated
might be downregulated on purpose in a CMV infection - but my doctor
said it wasn't those two. He goes to a lot of conferences so he might
have been exposed to something outside the electronic record available
to me. Has anybody got an idea about this? Loss of a putative vitamin
D3 transporter - perhaps through simple allergic inflammation especially
if it's linked to butyrate uptake - but it would not explain the failure
of the depot shots (would it?).
Despite taking D3 in all of these forms for over year, I'm as mildly
deficient in it now (25.7 ng/mL) as I was when I started supplementation.
I've had something similar happen with butyrate. It produced a lot of
initial benefits and then it slid back to a plateau. I think I've
established a clear connection with herpesvirus replication on that one.
My suspicion is that something similar's taking place with vitamin D3
but my evidence of a connection is much thinner. All I've got is this
corrupt IL-10 the virus pumps out. It's suggestive, but hardly
conclusive. As with most aspects of my condition, my thinking appears
to be a few years ahead of the current state of medical research. I
guess I'm just going to focus on killing the viruses and then check my
blood levels again to see if they normalize.
> : Eur J Immunol. 2008 Aug;38(8):2210-8.
>
> 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) promotes IL-10 production in human B cells.
>
> Heine G, Niesner U, Chang HD, Steinmeyer A, Z�gel U, Zuberbier T,
> Radbruch A,
> Worm M.
>
> Allergy-Center-Charit�, CCM, Department of Dermatology and Allergy,
> Charit� -
> Universit�tsmedizin Berlin, Berlin, Germany.
>
> 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin D(3) (calcitriol) regulates immune responses,
> e.g., inhibits expression of IgE by B cells and enhances expression of
> IL-10 by
> dendritic cells and T cells. We report here that activation of human B
> cells by B cell receptor, CD40 and IL-4 signals induces expression of
> the gene for
> 25-hydroxyvitamin-D3-1alpha-hydroxylase (CYP1alpha). Accordingly,
> these B cells generate and secrete significant amounts of calcitriol.
> In activated B cells calcitriol induces expression of the genes Cyp24,
> encoding a vitamin D hydroxylase, and Trpv6, encoding a calcium
> selective channel protein. Calcitriol enhances IL-10 expression of
> activated B cells more than threefold, both by recruiting the vitamin
> D receptor to the promoter of Il-10, and to lesser extent by
> modulation of calcium-dependent signaling. The molecular link in
> activated B
> cells between vitamin D signaling, expression of IgE and IL-10, and
> their ability to produce calcitriol from its precursor, suggest that
> pro-vitamin D
> (25-hydroxyvitamin D(3)) can be used as a modulator of allergic immune
> responses.
>
>
> PMID: 18651709 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Thanks for all the helpful research, people.
Kofi
<b4d6b68f-f426-48d1...@l42g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
jackson...@googlemail.com wrote:
Well, my IgG/IgM titers seem to be pretty accurate. Varicella and CMV
fit a good number of symptoms. What bothers me are those chronic
infections I might have that aren't prompting an antibody response. I
suppose those require PCR. What we really need are shotgun chips that
look for thousands of antibodies and fragments of pathogen DNA/RNA at
once. With modern chip fabrication techniques, economies of scale could
churn them out pretty cheaply. Sadly, I'm not aware of any push in
microfluidics to put something like this on the market any time soon.
Having said that, I've got a definite viral problem. I've suspected
something like this for a long time, but with a condition this
complicated, I've had little other choice than peeling each layer of the
onion one at a time. The viruses are simply the most recent layer
that's stuck to the onion. I've done well on the chlorella and this
seems to indicate I didn't fully take care of the earliest, most obvious
layer - the mercury poisoning. There's not much recent in the pubmed
literature, but there are some intriguing abstracts on mercury, CMV and
chlorella (in fact, I'm surprised the NIH slipped up and let them
through). There seems to be a viscious cycle involving local mercury
deposits left over in my gut after detox (apparently the DMPS missed
them; low blood flow, maybe?), resistance to growth hormone in those
areas and viral infection [PMID 8931761, 8686573, 7526487, 8686573].
As far as traditional antiviral therapies go, I'm looking at Valcyte and
the other commercially available antiviral drugs, although I want to
avoid vaccines like Varivax or Zostavax. With all the problems I've had
with metal detoxification, I should steer clear of adjuvants like alum.
I'm beginning to reach the conclusion that the vaccine industry has its
head up my ass.
I'd like to know what pathways these antivirals trigger that lead to
organ damage and whether they are vital to the antiviral functions. If
not, I might be able to down/upregulate the relevant pathways to protect
myself from organ damage in advance. Ideally, I'd like to use these
antivirals all at once to prevent the evolution of resistant strains.
How advisable that is, I don't know. Whether or not I should
discontinue butyrate while doing this is still up in the air too. There
simply isn't any guidance for this.
This strategy may push me into the realm of immunologists who, I've been
warned, are as generally useless as neurologists on the whole. I'm
rather tired of mediocre physicians who look at a scientific model based
on a well-researched bibliography as another form of mental illness.
I have started taking Chlorella with a lot of good results. Chlorella
is not only an antiviral but also improves IL-10 synthesis and
rebalances the immune system. There's even a report of it directly
suppressing allergic IgE responses to caesin in milk. I'm also weighing
spirulina maxima, propolis, aspergillus, cillantro, mushroom extracts
and ecklonia cava. Clearly, I won't try all of them.
einfach...@t-online.de
Valcyte and
> the other commercially available antiviral drugs, although I want to
> avoid vaccines like Varivax or Zostavax. With all the problems I've had
> with metal detoxification, I should steer clear of adjuvants like alum.
> I'm beginning to reach the conclusion that the vaccine industry has its
> head up my ass.
I'm looking at Valcyte too. I seem to have a chronic HHV-7
reactivation. There are only a few studies on HHV-7 while there are
tons more on HHV-6. Since both are nearly similar some scientists say
that they can cause the same symptoms and HHV-6 can cause a lot, not
to mention it's defense lowering effects that makes the body prone to
lots of other illnesses (MC, Cancer etc.).
The best site on HHV6 definetly is http://www.hhv-6foundation.org/.
They have all the latest info on it, as well as the best scientists in
this field.
> I'd like to know what pathways these antivirals trigger that lead to
> organ damage and whether they are vital to the antiviral functions. If
> not, I might be able to down/upregulate the relevant pathways to protect
> myself from organ damage in advance. Ideally, I'd like to use these
> antivirals all at once to prevent the evolution of resistant strains.
> How advisable that is,
That would be genious. I'd like to know that too. Valcyte can cause
cancer in animals, it can affect blood cells and bone marrow. It's
funny that they don't make any progress in the viral field.
>
> This strategy may push me into the realm of immunologists who, I've been
> warned, are as generally useless as neurologists on the whole. I'm
> rather tired of mediocre physicians who look at a scientific model based
> on a well-researched bibliography as another form of mental illness.
It's scary that they are allowed the title immunologist while
actually they know so little and act the opposite. Their knowledge is
based on what they learned in university and that's it. This is just a
waste of brain. Develope a DVD that lists all symptoms, let the user
type in the symptoms. Now bring up the tests the user is supposed to
do. Make those tests. Type in the test results and bring up the most
probable illness. Show the treatment. Done. You don't need very
intelligent people for that. You need the most intelligent people
however to connect the dots on pubmed and develope that DVD and the
tests and the treatment. To connect symptom to test and treatment
could nearly be done by anyone.
> I have started taking Chlorella with a lot of good results. Chlorella
> is not only an antiviral but also improves IL-10 synthesis and
> rebalances the immune system. There's even a report of it directly
> suppressing allergic IgE responses to caesin in milk. I'm also weighing
> spirulina maxima, propolis, aspergillus, cillantro, mushroom extracts
> and ecklonia cava. Clearly, I won't try all of them.
Maybe I should give Chlorella a try but I'm almost allergic to
anything. I had total IgE`s of 8000 on a regular basis. Intestinal IgA
is nearly non existent anymore and pancreatic output is low as well.
NKs are down, RNase is up as is Elastase. My doctor says the virus
attacks the intestine and by that causes all the trouble you see in so
many people with CFS.
I wonder why you are doing so good mentally. I noticed a huge decline
in mental abbilities when everything started 5 years ago. There could
be lots of reasons, one being this:
"Dr Hiro Kuratsune from Japan gave a summary of what is known about
brain function in ME/CFS. It has been known for over a decade that
frontal and temporal lobe blood flow is reduced in ME/CFS, and that
exercise exacerbates this reduced blood flow for up to 72 hours. The
new evidence is that elevated elastase and RNase-L levels correlate
with reduced blood flow. It is known that the MRI is abnormal in the
majority of people with ME/CFS due to numerous T2 weighted
hypertintense foci, with evidence of demyelination."
http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Facts_from_Florida.htm
katy
case of shingles. After a endoscopy's, endoscopy and blood work for
every parasitical condition in the world, they did the celiac blood test
and then cross referenced to the results of the endoscopy and
colonoscopy. Said the results were at the high end of the table and that
the celiac disease caused microscopic colitis. I took the herpes
medication but it had no effect on the shingles, diarrhea, or anything
else that I could tell. Neither my gastroenterologist or the internist
made any correlation between the celiac disease and the shingles, so I
am going to bring that to their attention. Turns out that over the years
I have been misdiagnosed with various other food allergies and
conditions when all along I had celiac disease. At least now I know.
einfach...@t-online.de
Gluten seems to be very problematic at least for ill people. Gluten
increases intestinal permeability in people with celiac disease (maybe
in other illnesses too). There are no studies on this but in autism
many parents see some improvement when they keep their children on a
gluten and casein free diet.
http://www.autism.org/leakygut.html
"At the present time, we do not know why the gluten-/ casein-free diet
helps many autistic individuals. One popular theory is that when
gluten and casein are broken down into peptides, they may pass through
imperfections in the intestinal tract. These peptides are termed
gliadinomorphin (breakdown of the gluten protein) and casomorphin
(breakdown of the casein protein). Both peptides act like morphine in
the body. They can also pass through the blood-brain barrier and have
a negative impact on brain development."
I also live gluten free and it helps but it's no cure.
Robert Miles
"Kofi" <ko...@anon.un> wrote in message
You may want to run a program in the background on your computer to
help virus research.
This one helps herpes research, but doesn't emphasize it; also HIV:
http://boinc.bakerlab.org/rosetta/
World Community Grid - dengue and HIV; also the proteosome
project helps somewhat
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/index.jsp
You mentioned also being interested in cell adhesion. This one is
developing software to help research into that:
http://cels-at-home-dev.dyndns.org/cels/
You might want to participate in all of these on the same
computer to fill in times when one or more of them doesn't
have any workunits they need you to work on; I participate in
all of these projects and more with my computer.
Those interested in allergies or autoimmune conditions may want to
participate in some of protein folding projects. I also participate in
these:
World Community Grid - proteome
http://www.worldcommunitygrid.org/
POEM@HOME
http://boinc.fzk.de/poem/
boincsimap
http://boinc.bio.wzw.tum.de/boincsimap/
There are even much projects still in alpha test or beta test, but
I don't consider those suitable for the general public to
participate yet.
Also, there's a web site for herpes sufferers. Seems to have
problems with registering new members, though.
<http://www.righthealth.com/Health/Herpes%20C-s?lid=goog-ads-sb-8536643334>
These sites may be relevant to your herpes problem:
http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/138/1/130
http://www.pnas.org/content/97/5/2208.full
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1559766
http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=6450&page=249
http://www.immunesupport.com/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-causes.htm
I found them with a Google search for "herpes IL-10 vitamin C"
without the quotes.
Kofi
> They have all the latest info on it, as well as the best scientists in
> this field.
Thanks. Did you know HHV6 integrates into the genome? I've found that
and some other stuff on sciencedaily.com. I'll try to post it soon.
> It's scary that they are allowed the title immunologist while
> actually they know so little and act the opposite. Their knowledge is
> based on what they learned in university and that's it. This is just a
> waste of brain. Develop a DVD that lists all symptoms, let the user
> type in the symptoms. Now bring up the tests the user is supposed to
> do. Make those tests. Type in the test results and bring up the most
> probable illness. Show the treatment. Done. You don't need very
> intelligent people for that. You need the most intelligent people
> however to connect the dots on pubmed and develop that DVD and the
> tests and the treatment. To connect symptom to test and treatment
> could nearly be done by anyone.
Well, if I got to go to Congress and pass laws that protected plumbers
from being sued if they ever left a job half-finished, everybody would
take plumbing classes and do their own plumbing wherever possible. What
you see in the medical industry is a lack of scientific efficiency.
These guys refused to listen to statistical quality control. They
totally ignored Edwards Deming. Detroit ignored him in the '50s and
'60s but Japan didn't and the Japanese car companies nearly bankrupted
Detroit in the '80s. Today's problems in Detroit stem from the fact
that the car companies have been successful for the last twenty years in
bribing Congress to protect them from rising CAFE (fuel efficiency)
standards. It's rent-seeking - the use of political connections to
protect an industry from the discipline of market forces. I studied
that in graduate school along with microeconomics, which is how I know
exactly what cognitive mistakes doctors make and why they make them.
The medical business is protected from being held responsible for its
decisions. I don't think we're ever going to have enough international
competition in medical care to fully address it - not the way we did
with imported cars, anyway.
So if you pay a plumber if he does a bad job and you pay him if he does
a good job, what kind of a job is he more likely to do? It doesn't take
a genius to figure that out. What it does take is someone trained to
see market reality and not somebody trained in any sort of ideology that
fits reality into neat little boxes before you can examine it for
yourself. But economists aren't usually trained to see reality like
this either. I have expertise in literary theory and political science
to thank for that. A liberal arts education and a sense of history are
invaluable in any undertaking. They really give you a deep capacity for
independent thought.
If we gave patients strong property rights and the ability to audit
their health care with outside experts, patients wouldn't have to deal
with the equivalent of sub-prime CDO meltdowns every day. The
government didn't audit the credit quality of the mortgages going into
CDOs and now global credit markets are melting down. This happened
because of a "free market" deregulatory atmosphere in the Republican
party. Republicans have been fighting with the New Deal state since its
inception in the 1930s. Bush has in fact behaved like a Communist, not
a capitalist. It's the job of the government to enforce property
rights. Murder, for instance, is a regulation. If you stopped
enforcing the laws against murder, you'd have more murders. Bush
stopped enforcing the laws against fraud because he believed businessmen
never commit sins and government always does. The result is massive
amounts of fraud. But this was foreseeable. His family has always done
this in office.
Passing laws restricting the ability to sue for medical malpractice
results in more malpractice, plain and simple. You're taking away a
patient's most fundamental property right - his ownership of himself.
If a doctor can injure somebody and still get paid the same amount, how
much more likely is it you'll see injuries? The data shows exactly
this. In states where it's easier to sue, the quality of medical care
is higher. Lawyering is easy. I can find one lawyer who will sue the
shit out of another lawyer for malpractice. From what I've seen, legal
malpractice is rarer but it does happen and it gets dealt with. How
many doctors will sue another doctor or testify against one? The
doctors I've seen doing the right thing locally almost always get
punished for it even in the most egregious cases of malpractice -
because a scientific standard of care is not what the courts deal with
(if for no other reason than our understand of the law is much less
opaque than our understanding of the human body).
What you're suggesting is a Google-like search system matching symptoms
with likely diagnoses and then evaluating the cost-effectiveness of
various approaches. That's great. I'm all for it. It's got its
problems, but it's infinitely better than the current system in America.
The problem is, seven years ago when I got sick I realized you could
never have that approach as long as various parts of the puzzle have
political protection from market responsibility. People are getting
paid *not* to do things that way and they will lose money if you change.
You can't even collect the data to make such a system work in America.
For instance, is it really in a drug company's interest if a database
keeps a record of people who benefit or don't benefit from their drugs?
Merck has an incentive to sell as many different drugs to as many
different people as possible. It's only due to government regulations
that the market is protected from this - at least it's supposed to be.
If the government were really doing its jobs do you think we'd have so
many ads for prescription drugs on TV? How many people watching "Chuck"
are smart enough to write their own medical prescriptions? How many
people, for that matter, are smart enough to do their own health care
audits? The industry is rife with information asymmetry, as we say in
game theory. There are ways around agent loss problems but the people
giving money to congressional campaigns have been deliberately picking
candidates who are dumb and easily manipulated - moreso than in past
years. It's all about raising money to buy TV ads now. Congress spends
a fraction of the time in committee studying problems that it used to.
People don't fix these issues. *Institutions* do.
The government won't stop Celebrex from getting peddled to toddlers on
TV even though we have known for years than blocking COX-2 makes
autoimmune conditions worse. If the government can't protect
information quality on TV, what do you think they can do when drug reps
talk to doctors in a private office where there's much less of a
spotlight on the relationship?
Don't get me wrong. You have to keep your eye on government too, but
what you're seeing right now is what happens when special
interests/rent-seekers have protected themselves for a generation from
political responsibility - whether it's credit card companies charging
100% interest a year now or medical providers totally ignoring quality
of service. The result is inefficiency that drags down economic growth.
By the way, if you think I'm smart now, you should have seen me twenty
years ago. I could do this stuff and juggle a dozen other balls at the
same time. Seven years ago, I was so sick I couldn't hold a
conversation and it took me about an hour to read and understand a
paragraph. To say I was in severe pain would be like saying Saddam
Hussein inconvenienced his political opponents. I had to take detailed
notes from everything I read and compare them in lists. It was the only
way I could remember anything. I kept doing that until it stuck. If I
wanted to talk, I would type up sentences in my mind's eye and read them
back. It was awkward, but it worked until I could patch the major holes
in my hull and start the pumps. I was taught to be flexible from an
early age, even under great pain. What can I say? Some lessons you can
only learn in athletics - which we, as a society, have priced out of the
reach of the ordinary person which is why we're now getting fat on
school cafeteria pizzas.
There is a cost to society when you butcher your best and brightest this
way. Getting that through to even John McCain is impossible - and he's
been tortured too. The Republicans have convinced themselves they're
never wrong and businessmen never sin - that's the Pelagian heresy, by
the way. Denial of original sin. These guys are Christians the same
way they're capitalists.
>
>
> > I have started taking Chlorella with a lot of good results. �Chlorella
> > is not only an antiviral but also improves IL-10 synthesis and
> > rebalances the immune system. �There's even a report of it directly
> > suppressing allergic IgE responses to caesin in milk. �I'm also
> > weighing
> > spirulina maxima, propolis, aspergillus, cillantro, mushroom extracts
> > and ecklonia cava. �Clearly, I won't try all of them.
>
> Maybe I should give Chlorella a try but I'm almost allergic to
> anything. I had total IgE`s of 8000 on a regular basis. Intestinal IgA
> is nearly non existent anymore and pancreatic output is low as well.
> NKs are down, RNase is up as is Elastase. My doctor says the virus
> attacks the intestine and by that causes all the trouble you see in so
> many people with CFS.
> I wonder why you are doing so good mentally. I noticed a huge decline
> in mental abbilities when everything started 5 years ago. There could
> be lots of reasons, one being this:
>
> "Dr Hiro Kuratsune from Japan gave a summary of what is known about
> brain function in ME/CFS. It has been known for over a decade that
> frontal and temporal lobe blood flow is reduced in ME/CFS, and that
> exercise exacerbates this reduced blood flow for up to 72 hours. The
> new evidence is that elevated elastase and RNase-L levels correlate
> with reduced blood flow. It is known that the MRI is abnormal in the
> majority of people with ME/CFS due to numerous T2 weighted
> hypertintense foci, with evidence of demyelination."
> http://www.meactionuk.org.uk/Facts from Florida.htm
I have the opposite reaction to exercise. I feel better afterwards.
Then again, I worked out 2-4 hours a day hard in college. That
conditioning might have spared me.
It's possible I never had pure chronic fatigue - or it's possible I
found ways to compensate for various declines in function. I don't
know. I'm scared to get an MRI (again). The last MRI I had was a
disaster. I had to live with several partially herniated discs in my
neck because my neurologist - the fucker - couldn't be bothered to walk
down to radiology and compare the notes from my pinprick exam to my
"average" abnormalities on the film that the radiologist assured him
couldn't be causing the pain. At every place I had pain, I had an
"abnormality" that was in the realm of average (but, hell, people can
walk around with herniated discs and still be asymptomatic, so why look
for them in the first place?). When you've got mercury poisoning and
the shingles, those anatomical defects count for a lot. I had to yank
the films and take them to my dentist to get them read properly and even
then I didn't get any real relief until I went to a physical therapist
for a year.
I didn't just 'get' this way. People took my money to make me better
and instead they made me worse. The mercury, for instance, came out of
a cracked filling. Why does the industry put these fillings into people
who already have autoimmune problems and severe bruxism? Because nobody
kicks the shit out of them when they do. So where's the incentive to
stop?
By the way, ever noticed what lidocaine does to HHV replication? The
lidocaine shots to my trigeminal nerve for my TMJ make a lot more sense
now...
Let me give you a few things to try. Keep in mind that carnitines may
increase your problems with viruses.
Acetyl-l-carnitine (which could raise your risk for brain and other
cancers and hair loss - p75 agonist, I'm afraid), could address the
fatigue. Mitocarnitine and the other carnitines wouldn't agonize p75
but also wouldn't affect ASIC3, which is involved in fatigue. A shot of
testosterone would help ASIC3 but it's probably doing it via p75 and
carnitine transport anyway... (A PPARalpha agonist would help with
uptake... but again, increasing histone acetylation with butyrate might
help the virus which is probably why you're in this catch-22 in the
first place).
Intestinal helminths. Great for autoantibodies and allergies.
Www.ovamed.com. Not perfect for me, but definitely an improvement.
Low-dose naltrexone.
Molybdenum (needed for metallothionein; would be bad for MT-expressing
tumors).
Vitamin D3
DHEA/testosterone/estrogen/progesterone
Intermittent fasting (autophagy)
B. fragilis/chlorella (for the IL-10)
Basically, I'm trying to fix defects in a chain of pathways that start
with butyrate/carnitine absorption in your gut: OCTN2->butyrate->mu
opioid/cannabinoids/metallothionein/cathelicidin/B-cell proliferation.
I've posted about all the branches before.
Have you ever been tested for heavy metals?
Kofi
<katy...@netscape.com> wrote:
"Welcome to the party, pal."
Say... Bruce Willis vs. American medicine? I think American medicine
would kick his ass every time. He might be able to take on the Death
Star, but not Joe Dentist, DDS. (Too many radioactive isotopes?)
Seriously, look for metals poisoning. It's a factor in reawakened
varicella zoster infections and try Chlorella for starters. If you've
got metals poisoning, it will really make treating the virus difficult.
I thought at the time I was in the most pain, "Wow. This has got to be
as bad as the shingles at least." It felt like every bone in my body
was constantly being broken. I was even in pain when I was asleep,
which I didn't know was possible. I'd read what mothers had said about
childbirth and the shingles and how they described it and I thought what
I had was in the same order. Seven years later my test results are in
and I finally know.
What did you do for the pain? Do you still have it? I've gotten good
relief from magnesium, methyl-B12, low-dose naltrexone and - you might
find this hard to believe - green tea extract topically applied in a 50%
distilled water/50% DMSO mixture. Turns out it's a PPARalpha agonist,
which helps with pain and carnitine uptake. It's also an antioxidant
and it helps inhibit viral replication. Also trips HIF-1a which I wrote
about recently. Anyway, as long as the skin is clean and the
ingredients pure, there's little downside risk in it (as long as you
don't mind waking up looking like Kermit with green sheets and pillows).
Famous last words, of course...
You might have these food allergies, you know. Just because you're
making antibodies to gliaden, you're not off the hook for antibodies to
other foods. In fact, the Celiac may have given you other problems like
those seen in IBD. To weed this out, you'll need to pursue an allergy
elimination diet. Did you get a full viral panel? Is varicella all
you've got? Did they give you Valcyte or some sort of immunoglobulin
product or a vaccine for the shingles infection?
As long as you have that infection, you'll want to avoid leukotriene
blockers. A lot of allergy medicines block LTB4, which is vital for
fighting the virus [PMID 17931111]. You should probably pick through
everything you take and see how it might affect the virus or even your
Celiac. There are so many ingredients in pills that cause problems for
Celiacs.
katy
> In article <48e4fa0b$0$504$ec3e...@news.usenetmonster.com>, katy
> <katy...@netscape.com> wrote:
>
>> I was just diagnosed with celiac disease at the age of 56 after a bad
>> case of shingles. After a endoscopy's, endoscopy and blood work for
>> every parasitical condition in the world, they did the celiac blood test
>> and then cross referenced to the results of the endoscopy and
>> colonoscopy. Said the results were at the high end of the table and that
>> the celiac disease caused microscopic colitis. I took the herpes
>> medication but it had no effect on the shingles, diarrhea, or anything
>> else that I could tell. Neither my gastroenterologist or the internist
>> made any correlation between the celiac disease and the shingles, so I
>> am going to bring that to their attention. Turns out that over the years
>> I have been misdiagnosed with various other food allergies and
>> conditions when all along I had celiac disease. At least now I know
>
> "Welcome to the party, pal."
>
> Say... Bruce Willis vs. American medicine? I think American medicine
> would kick his ass every time. He might be able to take on the Death
> Star, but not Joe Dentist, DDS. (Too many radioactive isotopes?)
>
> Seriously, look for metals poisoning. It's a factor in reawakened
> varicella zoster infections and try Chlorella for starters. If you've
> got metals poisoning, it will really make treating the virus difficult.
The shingles, thank goodness, have gone by the wayside...since I was
raised in an area 2 miles from a foundry and 8 miles from River Rouge,
MI, metal poisoning would not surprise me...
>
>
> What did you do for the pain?
Took diphenhydramine and Tramadol and mostly zonked myself out...I
should also mention I have a high pain threshold..have ahd 2 bone
grafts, one from an accident and another from a cancerous legion
(chondrosarcoma) so once you've had bone surgery, pain becomes a
relative thing...
Do you still have it?
I still have th scars on my abdomen...I had huge intense itching and it
baded the whole right side of my trunk and down into my groin...
I've gotten good
> relief from magnesium, methyl-B12, low-dose naltrexone and - you might
> find this hard to believe - green tea extract topically applied in a 50%
> distilled water/50% DMSO mixture.
I did use a green tea moisturizer and got relief from it...
Turns out it's a PPARalpha agonist,
> which helps with pain and carnitine uptake. It's also an antioxidant
> and it helps inhibit viral replication. Also trips HIF-1a which I wrote
> about recently. Anyway, as long as the skin is clean and the
> ingredients pure, there's little downside risk in it (as long as you
> don't mind waking up looking like Kermit with green sheets and pillows).
> Famous last words, of course...
Doctor told me I could also use capseisin..that it aggravates the
shingles...I was loathe to do that though becasue I wear contacts and
that stuff is hard to get off your hands, even scrubbing ruthlessly
(past experience speaking...not pleeasant...)
>
> You might have these food allergies, you know. Just because you're
> making antibodies to gliaden, you're not off the hook for antibodies to
> other foods. In fact, the Celiac may have given you other problems like
> those seen in IBD. To weed this out, you'll need to pursue an allergy
> elimination diet
I've had two in the past..they were contradictory..I am lactose
intolerant for sure and do have allergies for walnuts and pecans
(anaphylactic reactions) I am also allergic to both penicillin and
sulpha...one test said I was allergic to peaches, strawberries and
tomatoes, but they never give me any grief...allergist said I was
probably having an intolerant reaction because my immune system was
already overstimulated and sometimes you'll get false results...the
second test did not show these things..
. Did you get a full viral panel?
I don't know...I went into this whole thing uninformed on what I should
be asking...
Is varicella all
> you've got?
Don't know..
Did they give you Valcyte or some sort of immunoglobulin
> product or a vaccine for the shingles infection?
They gave me Valtrex for the shingles. I take diphenhydramine for
allergic reactions and Zyrtec daily...I am also now taking Asacol (sp)
I cannot take oral steroids, ehich was one suggestion...I do the steroid
freaky thing on them and get very paranoid...
>
> As long as you have that infection, you'll want to avoid leukotriene
> blockers.
I don't take Singular, so should be fine...
A lot of allergy medicines block LTB4, which is vital for
> fighting the virus [PMID 17931111]. You should probably pick through
> everything you take and see how it might affect the virus or even your
> Celiac. There are so many ingredients in pills that cause problems for
> Celiacs.
The pharmacist at our local pharmacy has been very helpful and even
supplied a list that Walgreen's has for OTC gluten free drugs...said if
something comes up they could always formulate themspeves...
Kofi
> intolerant for sure and do have allergies for walnuts and pecans
> (anaphylactic reactions) I am also allergic to both penicillin and
> sulpha...one test said I was allergic to peaches, strawberries and
> tomatoes, but they never give me any grief...allergist said I was
> probably having an intolerant reaction because my immune system was
> already overstimulated and sometimes you'll get false results...the
> second test did not show these things..
You really need to use the elimination diet and just see if you feel
better. If adding strawberries back to your base diet doesn't result in
any problems after a week or two, you probably don't have problems.
You really, really need to avoid tomatoes if you've got any inflammation
at all. There's a diet for M.S. patients that should help anybody with
nerve damage. Nightshades are very inflammatory. So are sweet fruits
because of the glucose they release. It somehow stimulates B- and
T-cell production. Not good for autoimmune problems.
>
> . Did you get a full viral panel?
>
> I don't know...I went into this whole thing uninformed on what I should
> be asking...
You might want to test for antibodies to HHV1-6. I had a fairly
inexpensive kit that did it.
>
> Is varicella all
> > you've got?
>
> Don't know..
>
> Did they give you Valcyte or some sort of immunoglobulin
> > product or a vaccine for the shingles infection?
>
> They gave me Valtrex for the shingles. I take diphenhydramine for
> allergic reactions and Zyrtec daily...I am also now taking Asacol (sp)
> I cannot take oral steroids, ehich was one suggestion...I do the steroid
> freaky thing on them and get very paranoid...
Valtrex is a prodrug, which means it has to be converted into aciclovir
in the body by the liver. I'm wondering if your doctors have tested to
see if you can convert it properly.
Kofi
> > What did you do for the pain?
>
> Took diphenhydramine and Tramadol and mostly zonked myself out...I
> should also mention I have a high pain threshold..
Are you a redhead? Have a redheaded parent?
katy
I'm a brunette with heavy auburn highlights...mother brunette, father
black hair....I am olive skintone....
Taka
> You really, really need to avoid tomatoes if you've got any inflammation
> at all. There's a diet for M.S. patients that should help anybody with
> nerve damage. Nightshades are very inflammatory.
Could you explain please how nightshades can be inflammatory? Any
references or molecular clues?
Taka
jackson...@googlemail.com
> In article <48e4fa0b$0$504$ec3e2...@news.usenetmonster.com>, katy
>
>> As long as you have that infection, you'll want to avoid leukotriene
> blockers. A lot of allergy medicines block LTB4, which is vital for
> fighting the virus [PMID 17931111]. You should probably pick through
> everything you take and see how it might affect the virus or even your
> Celiac. There are so many ingredients in pills that cause problems for
> Celiacs.
Would it be possible to take some LTB4 in order to treat a CMV
infection? Is this also valid for HHV6 or 7? That's really good to
know, I'm about to throw away the Singulair (I just took it once a
week or less) and won't buy it again.
Kofi
katy <katy...@netscape.com> wrote:
The mutation for red hair is a non-functional MC-1 mutation. It's not
necessarily dominant. It prevents alpha-MSH from docking to its
receptor (MC-1) and leaves opiates floating around longer in the blood.
This results in greater analgesia when a burst of pain releases
endogenous endorphins. Redheaded women have the highests tolerance for
pain, followed by redheaded men, followed by the rest of men, followed
by the rest of women. Since caesin and gluten are also processed into
opiates when they're digested, I have a theory I wrote about a few years
back that people who have this redheaded gene (and they wouldn't
necessarily be pure redheads) would be more vulnerable to autoimmune
problems revolving around gluten, caesin and other nutritional opioids
(like rice, red meat and maybe spinach too) because the antigens would
float around in these individuals longer before they broke down. When
you mentioned high tolerance to pain and a gluten problem, I played the
probabilities and took a guess.
Kofi
<ae118358-1778-4400...@17g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>,
Taka <taka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 3, 8:23 am, Kofi <k...@anon.un> wrote:
>
> > You really, really need to avoid tomatoes if you've got any inflammation
> > at all. There's a diet for M.S. patients that should help anybody with
> > nerve damage. Nightshades are very inflammatory.
>
> Could you explain please how nightshades can be inflammatory? Any
> references or molecular clues?
No. I just took it as a pointer from an M.S. diet and it worked for me.
I can't remember why off the top of my head and I've got no notes on it.
Rufus
This is kind of interesting...informationally...
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=62
...but I'd recommend just Googling "nightshades". I suspect the issue
for people with IBD is the alkaline content of nightshades, however, I
recall being warned off tomatoes by the hospital dietitian because they
are highly acidic...at least that was what I surmised at the time...I
suppose she could have meant alkaline reactive; she just told me "you'll
have to avoid tomatoes from now on" when I was released. Ever seen what
tomato sauce does to an aluminum pot if you leave it?..I avoid tomatoes
religiously...mostly...
I made the mistake of eating a bit too much pizza at a retirement party
last week...I'm still paying for it, discomfort-wise.
--
- Rufus
katy
That's interesting...I just always thought I was a syoic persoanlity
type....
Vanny
disorder, or food intolerances/allergies, it might be worth watching this
http://www.veoh.com/videos/v309238555An3pQA?rank=9&
"Kofi" <ko...@anon.un.org> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:kofi-561AE1.2...@earthlink.vsrv-sjc.supernews.net...
Kofi
>
> http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=george&dbid=62
>
> ...but I'd recommend just Googling "nightshades". I suspect the issue
> for people with IBD is the alkaline content of nightshades, however, I
> recall being warned off tomatoes by the hospital dietitian because they
> are highly acidic...at least that was what I surmised at the time...I
> suppose she could have meant alkaline reactive; she just told me "you'll
> have to avoid tomatoes from now on" when I was released. Ever seen what
> tomato sauce does to an aluminum pot if you leave it?..I avoid tomatoes
> religiously...mostly...
Acid-sensing ion channel gene 3? I found something on that a few months
back.
Do you experience a lot of muscle fatigue after you eat tomatoes?
Rufus
I generally experience fatigue and deep malaise after I eat any heavy
meal...mainly if I eat gluten heavy things like beef barley soup or
something with high wheat/oat content...though I seem to be ok with a
couple slices of wheat toast during breakfast. I had to quit eating
Cheerios, though...a bowl would knock me down for hours. Awake, but
feel as if I'm made of lead, and even just breathing is a chore...
What I get from tomatoes is gut pain, pure and simple. A constant low
level burning across my entire gut during this current episode. Been a
little over a week since I made the mistake of eating too much pizza and
I'm still dealing with it. Flared enough to feel it, but not bleeding
and still regular; not particularly diuretic, but needing to hit the
Ultram a couple times this week, maybe tonight as well.
Generally I just plain don't and/or won't eat tomatoes or tomato sauces.
I also try to avoid sugars (and honey in particular) when I get like
this - things that may elevate acid content in the gut during digestion
due to how they are broken down chemically.
I seem to be ok with peppers and/or dill pickles, and eat those as
substitutes for tomatoes. Spicy foods in general don't seem to bother
me...as long as they don't have an acidic (alkaline?...) content.
--
- Rufus
Kofi
> What I get from tomatoes is gut pain, pure and simple. A constant low
> level burning across my entire gut during this current episode. Been a
> little over a week since I made the mistake of eating too much pizza and
> I'm still dealing with it. Flared enough to feel it, but not bleeding
> and still regular; not particularly diuretic, but needing to hit the
> Ultram a couple times this week, maybe tonight as well.
Sounds like antibodies. They take about a week to clear out of the
blood.
Rufus
...dunno. I have "mild" Crohn's, and to me it sounds/feels like a
flare. So far, at least I'm not bleeding...again...
--
- Rufus