Shocked
Stavros
religion. I never expected this from this group of what I thought were
tolerant, sympathetic, and understanding gentlemen. I started this by
talking a little (very little) about faith, not even religion and certainly
not about any particular religion and it has led to some truly offensive and
ugly remarks, especially about the Roman Catholic Church. I am not Roman
Catholic, but I am just as offended as I would be were they virulent remarks
against Blacks, Jews, Hispanics--whatever. I am just appalled.
John Loomis
Curious. John Loomis
"Stavros" <voyag...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:Cb_mf.486$PQ3....@news20.bellglobal.com...
Steve Jordan
I sympathize.
I have noted in recent years that it is fashionable among some
unreflective folks to show how veddy veddy sophisticated one is in such
matters by denigrating Christianity and Christians (particularly) at
every opportunity. The RCC receives more than its share of hatred.
And BTW my religious outlook is nobody's business but my own.
Regards,
Steve J
"I will accept any rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am
free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I
tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free
because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
--Professor Bernardo de la Paz
DonC
>I am truly shocked at some of the remarks made on the subject of faith and
>religion. I never expected this from this group of what I thought were
>tolerant, sympathetic, and understanding gentlemen. I started this by
>talking a little (very little) about faith, not even religion and certainly
>not about any particular religion and it has led to some truly offensive
>and ugly remarks, especially about the Roman Catholic Church. I am not
>Roman Catholic, but I am just as offended as I would be were they virulent
>remarks against Blacks, Jews, Hispanics--whatever. I am just appalled.
Shocked? Can you be more specific?
I was raised Roman Catholic (good Altar Boy :) and I didn't see anything
that shocked me.
Are you simply shocked that there are nonbelievers?? What scares and
disturbs me are the people that are shocked (or whatever) that there are
nonbelievers --- or believers in some other religion.
Ron B
fine.
I wonder also what shocked you so much.
Nothing really bad was said, and for SURE...nothing was directed at YOU.
Pleasere reconsider and try to figure out and explain what bothered you.
We really like and respect you...so nobody was in the attack mode.
I feel bad that you were hurt...even if I don't understand.
But that doesn't matter.
If you WERE upset...then I'm sorry.
That is the last thing that we wanted to do...I'm sure.
Best of health,
Ron B.
Chicago
Stavros
religion. I am not shocked about believing in "other religions" at all--I
am not, as I said, Roman Catholic, and I fully understand that many have no
religious faith. I respect their humanity as well as their right to believe
or not.
"DonC" <coondwc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:LKadne7xwvS...@comcast.com...
Stavros
that bothered me. If it were more generalized I suppose that would be
different to me. Anyway, I erased the thread so I can;t go back and
see--nor want to. It seemed offensive to me.
O, I never thought anything was directed against me at all. It was a
general discussion, I understood that.
And, for sure, good health and peace toall.
"Ron B" <Gi...@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:11148-439...@storefull-3311.bay.webtv.net...
Glassman
> Not at all. I was shocked that such hateful remarks were made about a
> religion. I am not shocked about believing in "other religions" at all--I
> am not, as I said, Roman Catholic, and I fully understand that many have
no
> religious faith. I respect their humanity as well as their right to
believe
> or not.
>
>
Stav you need to go and read some stuff, if you are shocked by some of
the anger with that group. Perhaps you are not familiar with such things as
the Inquisition, non followers burning in hell, and pedophile priests? It's
a pretty compelling and ugly list. While other religions preach love,
beauty, and faith...... Catholics do hate, fear, and threats of eternity in
hell. Just my opinion.
--
"I'm not pompous and arrogant, I'm SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
www.sinrodstudios.com
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories
Leonard Evens
Stavros,
Seeing your concern, I went back and looked at the previous thread you
started on the subject. I didn't see anything that shocked me, but
perhaps it is a matter of perspective. The only comment in that thread
with respect to the Roman Catholic Church was the assertion that
Catholics believed that unless you accepted their version of things, you
were doomed to burn in hell. It is more complicated than that, but
this was in fact essentially true until fairly recently in church
history. (Or course, in these matters, one must distinguish the beliefs
of individual church adherents from the official position of the Church.
they need not be the same.) I'm hardly an expert on the subject, but
I believe that the Church has tempered that position quite a bit in the
past 50 years or so. But the Roman Catholic church is not alone in that
regard. Many sects, Christian and non-christian, believe that the only
path to salvation is through their beliefs. To say so is not to slander
those relgious beliefs, but merely to report them accurately. And it
certainly doesn't mean that members of these religions treat
non-believers as inferior or less deserving of rights.
Along with many Roman Catholics, I happen to disagree with some current
teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, which I think have negative
consequences. For example, opposition to the use of condoms to prevent
the spread of AIDs seems foolish at best. But, again, the Catholic
Church is hardly unique in this regard. Most relgious sects have
beliefs which others may find objectionable, and at times this has led
to bitter religious wars. There is nothing wrong with talking about
such matters, as long as it done with respect.
Let me make one other comment. I was initially put off by your
statements about faith because I felt they were inappropriate for this
forum. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but it is possible to
infer the suggestion that men without faith won't do as well in facing
their disease and may even have less than optimum results thereby. Even
if that were true, which I don't believe to be the case, even hinting
at it here may make some men feel worse than they already do.
Tdub
criticize or try to resolve social problems, let alone the merits of
particular religions and religious practices. This is the biggest
problem (in my view) that we have today - people who don't contribute
to the improvement of the human condition because they either don't
think it's important ("leaving it up to god to do") or don't think we
should do anything but "try to be good" and wait for our salvation. The
Catholic Church, again in my view, is nothing but a big, old, fat
institution trying its best to preserve its turf and existence, and
maintaining pointless, time-consuming and old attention-diverting
rituals in attempt to get some of us to believe that they are divinely
origined. I went to a Catholic college, and discussed these things with
many Brothers (Holy Cross order) and they are just as often critical of
these things as some lay people like myself. But it is a beautiful
institution with beautiful traditions and rituals (as is the Church of
England and the British Crown) so they continue on the basis of pure
inertia and faith . . . the downfall of institutions such as these is
knowledge; they're power, authority and existence is in decline since
the Gutenberg bible and the invention of the printing press - just
imagine the abuses of the priests when they were the only ones who
could read and had access to written text! P.S. Dave Perry, got a kick
out of your narrative.
DonC
I'm still having trouble finding the hateful remarks that supposedly were
made. I googled "alt.support.cancer.prostate" and "catholic" and was
unable to any comments that I would consider "hateful."
Yes there were comments about a Catholic telling a member of this group that
he was doomed to hell if he wasn't a Catholic but that wasn't a hateful
statement made by a member of this group. It was a statement by someone
else -- an ignorant statement IMHO. BTW, that's not an uncommon belief
held by hopefully a minority of members of many religions.
"Stavros" <voyag...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:IH0nf.555$PQ3....@news20.bellglobal.com...
DonC
"Glassman" <jksi...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:Ht1nf.23667$L7.1...@fe12.lga...
>
> "Stavros" <voyag...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:IH0nf.555$PQ3....@news20.bellglobal.com...
>> Not at all. I was shocked that such hateful remarks were made about a
>> religion. I am not shocked about believing in "other religions" at
>> all--I
>> am not, as I said, Roman Catholic, and I fully understand that many have
> no
>> religious faith. I respect their humanity as well as their right to
> believe
>> or not.
>>
>>
>
> Stav you need to go and read some stuff, if you are shocked by some of
> the anger with that group. Perhaps you are not familiar with such things
> as
> the Inquisition, non followers burning in hell, and pedophile priests?
> It's
> a pretty compelling and ugly list. While other religions preach love,
> beauty, and faith...... Catholics do hate, fear, and threats of eternity
> in
> hell. Just my opinion.
Glad you added those last three words. My Catholic upbringing in no way
represents what you wrote. Preaching hate, fear, and threats of eternity in
hell???? NO WAY! You've got quite an imagination. I no longer consider
myself a Catholic but not for far, far different reasons.
DonC
"Tdub" <grips...@email.com> wrote in message
news:1134341982.7...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Glassman
>
> >
> > Stav you need to go and read some stuff, if you are shocked by some of
> > the anger with that group. Perhaps you are not familiar with such things
> > as
> > the Inquisition, non followers burning in hell, and pedophile priests?
> > It's
> > a pretty compelling and ugly list. While other religions preach love,
> > beauty, and faith...... Catholics do hate, fear, and threats of eternity
> > in
> > hell. Just my opinion.
>
> Glad you added those last three words. My Catholic upbringing in no way
> represents what you wrote. Preaching hate, fear, and threats of eternity
in
> hell???? NO WAY! You've got quite an imagination. I no longer consider
> myself a Catholic but not for far, far different reasons.
>
>
Here's what I heard growing up Don...... if you're Catholic you are
obliged to:
1. Hate the Jews for they killed Christ.
2. Broken rules mean punishment by god
3. If you don't believe, you burn in hell.... PERIOD.
Now you may have heard or perceived differently growing up, but these 3
alone pretty much form my personal opinions on the matter. Now just as a
comparision, only because many Christians don't know this. My tribe doesn't
enlist members (proselytize) at all, and certainly never with threats of
doom & salvation. They don't believe in a hell at all even if you're a very
bad boy. The rules set down are for each others treatment of their fellow
man, not to please or displease god. Now before you say anything, I'm not
religious in the least, but I was brought up by these very different rules.
But..................... after 55 years I do understand what faith is.
I truly respect those that do believe in what they were raised to believe.
Follow these rules and you'll go to heaven, don't and you burn in hell
forever etc etc.... In fact the only thing that bothers me, is the fact that
there's no room in the Christian religion for those good folks that lead a
saintly & chaste life, but don't happen to recognize Jesus as their personal
savior. No devout Hindus in heaven? No Jews, no Holy men of other
persuasions? NONE?
The world needs religion. It's been such an uncivilized place, that I
cannot imagine how much worse it would be without it. I just think there's
room for as many as people want. It's not right to put down other people
for not following your path, and really uncool to threaten them. Again, just
DonC
Heard? From who? As what? A Catholic or........?
As a Catholic I never heard #1 or #3; never, ever, period.
Number 2 yes unless you atoned for your "sins" (broken rules) and they left
you numerous ways to do so.
Regarding #3, I vividly remember asking a priest "What if I don't believe
what the church requires?" He responded that everyone had to make up their
own mind. That was about 1960; and I did : ) He never even hinted at #3!
> Now you may have heard or perceived differently growing up, but these 3
> alone pretty much form my personal opinions on the matter.
How formed? Through direct teachings of the Catholic church or from other
teachings?
> Now just as a
> comparision, only because many Christians don't know this. My tribe
> doesn't
> enlist members (proselytize) at all, and certainly never with threats of
> doom & salvation. They don't believe in a hell at all even if you're a
> very
> bad boy.
That's pretty convenient : )
>The rules set down are for each others treatment of their fellow
> man, not to please or displease god. Now before you say anything, I'm not
> religious in the least, but I was brought up by these very different
> rules.
> But..................... after 55 years I do understand what faith is.
What is it?
> I truly respect those that do believe in what they were raised to believe.
> Follow these rules and you'll go to heaven, don't and you burn in hell
> forever etc etc.... In fact the only thing that bothers me, is the fact
> that
> there's no room in the Christian religion for those good folks that lead a
> saintly & chaste life, but don't happen to recognize Jesus as their
> personal
> savior. No devout Hindus in heaven? No Jews, no Holy men of other
> persuasions? NONE?
I generally agree but shouldn't there also be room for agnostics and even
atheists --- assuming they lead a "saintly and chaste" life?
Alex
>> I am truly shocked at some of the remarks made on the subject of faith
>> and religion. I never expected this from this group of what I thought
>> were tolerant, sympathetic, and understanding gentlemen.
>
> Seeing your concern, I went back and looked at the previous thread you
> started on the subject. I didn't see anything that shocked me, but
> perhaps it is a matter of perspective.
>
Maybe the comment by Stavros is a good reminder that some topics --
religion, politics (and even Windows XP) -- are potentially sensitive and
divisive, and in any event have little direct relevance to prostate cancer.
Maybe it would be wise for us to agree to keep our thoughts on non-PCa
issues out of the newsgroup, and/or to refrain from responding to OT posts.
It would be a shame if even one guy who needs the support available here was
discouraged from hanging around because of an ill-worded remark about
something that has nothing to do with that damned gland.
Alex
Bob Anthony
As a former "Alter Boy" and an attendee of a Catholic School I concur
with you about non believers to be doomed in hell according to Catholic
Church doctrine. I used to get it beat (literally and figuratively) into
me all the time way back then. Never could understand it then and surely
I cannot now. I had lots of friends of different religions and beliefs
and of course still do. What I could not get my mind around then was
that good people of other faiths to be condemned to an eternity in hell
because they were not Roman Catholics. I would question the nuns (during
the times that were allowed) about this and various other topics of
concern to me and they would either not answer my question directly or
would slap me silly. I had one nun actually call me a communist! They
even made me wear a dress because I had crossed the boundary to where
only the girls were allowed to play during lunch break!!
I'm not a secularist either. If someone wants to have faith and show
their faith by speaking out or displaying it during holidays, I have
absolutely no problem with it. If someone finds solace in faith then
great for them. I respect their right to believe. I expect the same
understanding towards my beliefs. I chose then to believe differently
from Roman Catholic doctrine. I try to do right by my fellow man not out
of fear of punishment by God, nor to please a daiety, but because it is
the right thing to do.
B.A.
Bob Anthony
Stavros
great benefit to us in coping with life I do not necessarily mean the
obverse-that there is no other way. All boy scouts are boys, but not all
boys are boy scouts. And I was commenting on what had already been raised
on this ng, several times, that some wish they did have faith but didn't, or
that they envied those that do. I did not raise the subject. It's like Law
and Order when the DA asks a defence witness something that is forbidden to
ask and is challenged--he always says, O, but the defence opened this line
of questioning. To s ay that something is valuable doesn't mean that
nothing else is.
What I don't understand is how remarks about faith in general have been
narrowed down to prejudicial remarks about the Catholic Church (again, I am
not Catholic). Some of those who accuse the RC of excluding all others of
salvation seem themselves to be saying that only Roman Catholics have faith,
because they have narrowed down a discussion of faith to a discussion the
RC. Whereas I personally believe that my own religion is correct in its
beliefs and practises (Greek Orthodox), I hardly believe that no one else in
the world believes in God.
"Leonard Evens" <l...@math.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:BvadnR2tQcZ_MwHe...@comcast.com...
Stavros
"Alex" <tuchasoffentisch@_NO_SPAM_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nY7nf.30648$dO2....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
Stavros
"Bob Anthony" <boba...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:Jn8nf.2671$kP5....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
I. P. Freely
and giving Stavros something specific to shoot at. ;-)
BTW, Stavros . . . every word ever typed in this forum's last several years
is at your fingertips in Google Groups, searchable by dates, author,
content, topic, etc. Any time you want to clarify your statement, Google
Groups is there for you. Even simpler in this recent case is your browser
VIEW button, if your browser is anything like OE: Under View, select Current
View, then View All Messages, and there we are again, warts and all.
I.P.
"Tdub" <grips...@email.com> wrote in message
news:1134341982.7...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I. P. Freely
"Leonard Evens"
> I was initially put off by your statements about faith because I felt they
> were inappropriate for this forum. I'm sure you didn't mean it that way,
> but it is possible to infer the suggestion that men without faith won't do
> as well in facing their disease and may even have less than optimum
> results thereby. Even if that were true, which I don't believe to be the
> case, even hinting at it here may make some men feel worse than they
> already do.
For me, Stavros's original pleasant faith comments about religion and
politics not impacting PC (a vague recollection, not a quote or even
paraphrasing) relieves him of the implication that lack of faith will affect
our outcome. I just saw a man laying his own faith on the table as an
affirmation.
I guess he hadn't taken his sensitivities and others' opinions into account
before doing that.
I have no idea how many Catholics are taught or still believe that
non-Catholics are doomed to hell, but that one cost my 30-something neighbor
his non-Catholic sister, who has spurned him for many years since he
announced matter-of-factly that she's on her way to the eternal barbecue.
Anyone who exposes his religion, politics, sexual proclivities, morals,
choice of underwear, eating habits, car choice, and choice of PC therapy to
the light of day must be prepared for differing opinions and steeled for
criticisms. Defending our position SHOULD reinforce our choice/preferences;
if it doesn't, maybe we should reexamine our position.
For example, I'll bet Catholics have a great defense for my opinion that
although confessions, Hail Marys, genuflections, and 5,0000 sit-ups may
persuade St. Pete to let them in the pearly gates, such atonements by no
means absolve them of consequences and resentment here in THIS life, where
EVERYONE, not just those of the same faith, wants a pound of flesh, jail
time, cash on the barrel, and/or some real sucking up before all is forgiven
. . . if it ever is.
As for those fire and brimstone preachers of ANY religion who tell us we're
going to hell for every little questionable thought or deed, THEY can go to
hell. It makes us even, and matters not anyway, 'cause it's some heavenly
father (mother?) who makes the call, not these doomsday podium-pounders and
certainly not us peons.
I.P.
I. P. Freely
"Bob Anthony" wrote
> I concur with you about non believers to be doomed in hell according to
> Catholic Church doctrine. I used to get it beat (literally and
> figuratively) into me
> good people of other faiths to be condemned to an eternity in hell because
> they were not Roman Catholics.
> [nuns] would either not answer my question directly or would slap me
> silly. I had one nun actually call me a communist! They even made me wear
> a dress
Any religion, club, fraternity, gang, or gaggle that wants my allegiance had
better offer far more honey than whippings. Haven't these guys heard of
catching flies?
I.P.
I. P. Freely
"Alex" wrote
> Maybe the comment by Stavros is a good reminder that some topics --
> religion, politics (and even Windows XP) -- are potentially sensitive and
> divisive, and in any event have little direct relevance to prostate
> cancer.
> Maybe it would be wise for us to agree to keep our thoughts on non-PCa
> issues out of the newsgroup, and/or to refrain from responding to OT
> posts.
Here's a novel idea: how about accepting occasional OT diversions, marked as
such, so participants can enjoy the ideas of friends and uninterested
parties can ignore them? Why legislate them out of existence because some
people don't like them? ARE YOU LISTENING, ACLU? MERRY FREAKING CHRISTMAS!
> It would be a shame if even one guy who needs the support available here
> was discouraged from hanging around because of an ill-worded remark about
> something that has nothing to do with that damned gland.
Yes, it would, but we can't satisfy all the people all the time. Look at the
consternation often arising from center-topic discussions of PC treatment
main and side effects. It all comes down to one basic problem: there's is
NO statement or point of view that will offend NO one. We can't let
oversensitive people suffocate our lives any more than we can let whackos
run them; there must be some middle ground.
Outlawing everything that may offend SOME body SOME where leads to an
extremely oppressed society. (Did ya know that the Harvard Law School tried
to pass a hard rule that ANYone who ever offended ANYone would be
permanently evicted from HLS?) Do we want that, either here or in our daily
lives, as an awfully large and noisy lobby wants?
I.P.
Glassman
>
> "Glassman" <jksi...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:Gd5nf.23778$L7....@fe12.lga...
> >
> > "DonC" <coondwc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> > news:RMadncEovNm...@comcast.com...
> >>
> >
> > obliged to:
> >
> > 1. Hate the Jews for they killed Christ.
> > 2. Broken rules mean punishment by god
> > 3. If you don't believe, you burn in hell.... PERIOD.
>
> Heard? From who? As what? A Catholic or........?
>
> As a Catholic I never heard #1 or #3; never, ever, period.
> Number 2 yes unless you atoned for your "sins" (broken rules) and they
left
> you numerous ways to do so.
>
Don you seem to be the exception to the above 3 rules. All you need to
do is read all the responses from Catholic raised men here. I got many
beatings in the 60's from nice Catholic school kids, for being a "christ
killer", so I'm not making this stuff up. Good for you that your preist had
a good head on his shoulders. You're one of the lucky ones.
Glassman
"Alex" <tuchasoffentisch@_NO_SPAM_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:nY7nf.30648$dO2....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net...
> >
> religion, politics (and even Windows XP) -- are potentially sensitive and
> divisive, and in any event have little direct relevance to prostate
cancer.
> Maybe it would be wise for us to agree to keep our thoughts on non-PCa
> issues out of the newsgroup, and/or to refrain from responding to OT
posts.
> It would be a shame if even one guy who needs the support available here
was
> discouraged from hanging around because of an ill-worded remark about
> something that has nothing to do with that damned gland.
>
> Alex
>
>
How silly Alex. One of the few things more important than our PCa is
certainly freedom of speech. We're all grown and civilized men here. We're
having an interesting and intense discussion, and who exactly got hurt by
this? Three years ago I got so much help and advice from such sources as
Leonard Evens & John Loomis. Can there be two more desparate styles? You
can't censor content without losing something along the way. Our last big
blowup here was over a guy that was offended by strong sexual content. He
left in a huff because his daughter read our group, and was apparently
shocked to read about masturbation and oral sex. This from a group of men
with erectile dysfunction!
We all speak to each other often. There's so much negative going on
that an ocasional OT thread is welcomed by me, especially amongst friends.
Politics, religion, sports.... keep it coming.
--
"Don't get me wrong... I'm SNARKY"
Bob Anthony
parochial level. The taste of honey was not my 8 year experience at all,
and a lot of the files that were attracted was by far more pungent means.
I. P. Freely
"Glassman" wrote
> Politics, religion, sports.... keep it coming.
NOW you've gone and done, it, Glassman. That's over the top, out of bounds,
off limits, unacceptable, disgusting, offensive crap. Where's the ACLU when
we need 'em? I DEMAND we ban organized sports from ALL discussion, from
cocktail parties to the confessional to the internet. Sports bores me to
hell and back, and if we start allowing that here, I'm gonna HUFF and PUFF
and just . . . just . . . look the other way.
$#!+ . . . next thing you know we'll be discussing MOVIE STARS or SINGERS,
at which point I hit ControlAltDelete, which usually sends my computer into
an endless loop of nonsense salvageable only by shutting off the power.
I.P.
I. P. Freely
"Bob Anthony" wrote
> If they had, maybe I would have continued on with my studies on a
> parochial level. The taste of honey was not my 8 year experience at all,
> and a lot of the files that were attracted was by far more pungent means.
Now THERE'S a strong incentive to come join the flock.
I.P.
Alex
news:N_inf.13526$tQ7....@fe04.lga...
School, the ACLU and I.P., I gotta surrender.
But how about marking Off Topic discussions as OT in the subject line? That
way, newbies (like Robert J. Caron, who arrived today and seems ready to
depart because of the non-PCa sturm und drang) will know this is just some
of us OFs engaging in some OT head-butting.
Now, about Linux versus Windows ...
Alex
Stavros
"I. P. Freely" <fuhghed...@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:L7inf.12$It...@fe02.lga...
Stavros
enjoy the ideas of friends and uninterested > parties can ignore them?"
the sender and makes me feel I am among friends.
"I. P. Freely" <fuhghed...@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:N_inf.13526$tQ7....@fe04.lga...
Stavros
didn't. Also I thugh PCa had something to do with computers.
"Alex" <tuchasoffentisch@_NO_SPAM_gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_Hknf.30778$7h7....@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
I. P. Freely
"Alex" wrote
> "I. P. Freely" wrote
>> how about accepting occasional OT diversions, marked as such
> how about marking Off Topic discussions as OT in the subject line?
Is USENET dropping whole lines of my posts?
Are we being CENSORED?
IT'S BUSH'S FAULT! The Patriot Act is coming to get us all! ;-)
Back to my strawberry shortcake.
I.P.
Tdub
religion, particularly the Catholic Church, the Church of England, or
the Greek Orthodox Church, is another thing (GOxy is supposed to be
even more conservative than the RCC, so it is understandable, Stavros,
why you would be uncomfortable with criticism of the RCC). Most people
that have "faith" really are just tied to an organized religion because
of family tradition, and the beauty and comfort of its attendant
rituals and symbols. Ties to these tightly bound religions in a way are
anti-humanistic because they ask you to suspend reason for belief.
Modern day life is very complex and it requires a lot of careful
reasoning and thinking to understand it. The aforementioned religions
instead encourage you not to think but instead just follow their dogma.
A good example of this causing problems would be if your teenage son or
daughter said they were gay. These religions have no answers that make
any sense here. Religions that have more respect for reason, such as
Unitarianism, however do make more sense, and encourage thought in
problem solving. So if your kid is gay and you are Catholic your life
is destroyed. However, if you don't follow one of these "bound"
religions you can make some sense of it - you sit down and talk to your
kid and find out why he/she thinks they are gay. You follow this
through and you may learn what life is really all about. (Personally, I
don't think there is any such thing as "gay" - it is just an inaccurate
and overbroad self-identity label that is primarily a function of
Victorian obsession with things sexual.) So my son learns that there
really is nothing wrong with physical contact, including the
affectional type, with boys as well as girls at his age - it's natural
and most people gravitate to the opposite sex by adulthood - he then is
happier than similarly situation kids restrained by bound religions,
whereas the latter tend to be less comfortable with other people and
generally more afraid of life in general - this is no way to live. That
is the way my parents lived. A life of rejection, negativity, distrust
and fear. It causes wars. Anything that causes or encourages people not
to trust their mind, not to think, not to reason, not to use that most
fundamental element of human-ness is doomed to decline and ultimately
to extinction.
Brian
> Now, about Linux versus Windows ...
Shotgun vs Windows...
Brian
> "Glassman" wrote
>> Politics, religion, sports.... keep it coming.
>
> NOW you've gone and done, it, Glassman. That's over the top, out of
> bounds, off limits, unacceptable, disgusting, offensive crap. Where's the
> ACLU when we need 'em? I DEMAND we ban organized sports from ALL
> discussion, from cocktail parties to the confessional to the internet.
> Sports bores me to hell and back.
How about talk-radio-sports-stations (ESPN Radio)...
> $#!+ . . . next thing you know we'll be discussing SINGERS
OK, what sewing machines do you like, and what OS do you put on them?
I. P. Freely
"Brian" wrote>
>> Now, about Linux versus Windows ...
>
> Shotgun vs Windows...
I have to keep my shotgun and my Windows machine in separate rooms.
I.P.
I. P. Freely
"Brian" wrote
I.P. wrote >> Sports bores me to hell and back.
>
> How about talk-radio-sports-stations ...
THERE'S whole segment blocked from my XM radio.
I.P.
DonC
> Don you seem to be the exception to the above 3 rules. All you need to
> do is read all the responses from Catholic raised men here. I got many
> beatings in the 60's from nice Catholic school kids, for being a "christ
> killer", so I'm not making this stuff up. Good for you that your preist
> had
> a good head on his shoulders. You're one of the lucky ones.
You may be right. I never attended a Catholic school which may have been a
blessing : )
But even with my positive experience, I left because I did not agree with
the fundamental teachings of the church.
I. P. Freely
"DonC" wrote
> I left because I did not agree with the fundamental teachings of the
> church.
It wasn't my fundamental church teachings that left me uninterested; it was
being told over and over and over and over to "be good". I got the message
the first time; the rest was a stuck record . . . and my church didn't even
have all those silly ideas some churches do.
I.P.
Pops
I love the oxi-moron of atheism - it is self destructive - it's
invocation as a belief is indeed proof that there is not such thing.
The ability of each of us to be self aware and to consider our
existence is act of belief.
Even Descartes' "I think therefore I am" requires "something else" in
order for his existence to come into being.
The very fact that one considers the existence of God (or a higher
consciousness, or whatever) is in itself an act of belief.
Simply put - God (interpret the words as you wish) exists. Within the
human condition there is no other option!
Having said all this, not believing in religion is NOT atheism.
Religion and God ARE NOT interchangeable. In fact religion can, and is
often used to, obscure God and the real purpose of the existence of
life in all its forms.
Leonard Evens
> "DonC" <coondwc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:CMWdnVpkY7B...@comcast.com...
>
>>"Glassman" <jksi...@aol.com> wrote in message
>>news:Gd5nf.23778$L7....@fe12.lga...
>>
>>>"DonC" <coondwc...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>news:RMadncEovNm...@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> Here's what I heard growing up Don...... if you're Catholic you are
>>>obliged to:
>>>
>>>1. Hate the Jews for they killed Christ.
>>>2. Broken rules mean punishment by god
>>>3. If you don't believe, you burn in hell.... PERIOD.
>>
>>Heard? From who? As what? A Catholic or........?
>>
>>As a Catholic I never heard #1 or #3; never, ever, period.
>>Number 2 yes unless you atoned for your "sins" (broken rules) and they
>
> left
>
>>you numerous ways to do so.
>>
>
>
> Don you seem to be the exception to the above 3 rules. All you need to
> do is read all the responses from Catholic raised men here. I got many
> beatings in the 60's from nice Catholic school kids, for being a "christ
> killer", so I'm not making this stuff up. Good for you that your preist had
> a good head on his shoulders. You're one of the lucky ones.
That really suprises me. I had that experience in the 30s and 40s, but
I thought the Church authorities had become sensitized to that sort of
thing by the 60s and had tried to excise it from the Church.
>
>
JK@work
"Leonard Evens" <l...@math.northwestern.edu> wrote in message
news:0p-dnamidvY...@comcast.com...
> >
> That really suprises me. I had that experience in the 30s and 40s, but
> I thought the Church authorities had become sensitized to that sort of
> thing by the 60s and had tried to excise it from the Church.
>
> >
> >
Correct me if I'm wrong but the church didn't formally obsolve the Jews
from killing Christ or recognize Israel until the late 60's. I think it
still hasn't sunken in with some sects yet. Not bad, only took 1960 years to
say they were wrong.
--
"I'm not pompous, I'm SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
http://www.sinrodstudios.com/
Coney Island Memories
www.sinrodstudios.com/coneymemories/
JK@work
"I. P. Freely" <fuhghed...@noway.nohow> wrote in message
Well if you had only listened and agreed to be good, maybe you wouldn't
be in the state you're in today IP?
--
"I'm not pompous, I'm SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
Steve Kramer
> Stav you need to go and read some stuff, if you are shocked by some of
> the anger with that group. Perhaps you are not familiar with such things
> as
> the Inquisition, non followers burning in hell, and pedophile priests?
> It's
> a pretty compelling and ugly list. While other religions preach love,
> beauty, and faith...... Catholics do hate, fear, and threats of eternity
> in
> hell. Just my opinion.
>
I'm Catholic, Glassman. Can you recall a time I have participated in an
Inquisition, accused you or anyone else here of going to Hell or preached
hate?
Steve Kramer
> Here's what I heard growing up Don...... if you're Catholic you are
> obliged to:
>
> 1. Hate the Jews for they killed Christ.
> 2. Broken rules mean punishment by god
> 3. If you don't believe, you burn in hell.... PERIOD.
I have seen there are about 100 replies past this, so I assume it is well
handled.
I am going to take my own advice and delete the rest of this thread, but
before I do, I want to note that if this is what you were told and you
believed it, then I forgive you for your statements.
I. P. Freely
"JK@work" surmised
> Well if you had only listened and agreed to be good,
> maybe you wouldn't be in the state you're in today IP?
Well, it's my preacher's fault for not telling me they'd slice up my crotch
if I misbehaved. My eyes would have gotten REAL big if he'd stood up there
and hollered about purple plums, penile truncation, tubular intrusions, a
rucksack of warm piss strapped to my leg, diapers, permanent pointing
problems, and the future prospect of SERIOUS stuff some day, rather than
just promising I'd go blind if I didn't give it a rest and let my callouses
at least soften.
I.P.
I. P. Freely
"Steve Kramer" responded to
>
>> Here's what I heard growing up Don...... if you're Catholic you are
>> obliged to:
>>
>> 1. Hate the Jews for they killed Christ.
>> 2. Broken rules mean punishment by god
>> 3. If you don't believe, you burn in hell.... PERIOD.
with
> I am going to delete the rest of this thread, and forgive you for your
> statements.
Statements of fact -- "I heard growing up" -- do not need forgiveness.
And if practicioners object to what the public is being told about them,
their most effective way to counter it is to speak up, both in public and in
their own venues. I've heard/seen more Catholics say non-Cs go to hell than
I've heard/seen deny it.
Not that I'm making a comparison btw Catholics and Muslims, but isn't it
obvious that the best way for innocent Muslims to counter the public's
distrust might be to SPEAK OUT against Islamofascism worldwide in the
streets and in mosques? They should be raising holy hell against it. Until
they do I will not trust or respect them.
I.P.
Glassman
"Steve Kramer" <skr...@cinci.rr.com> wrote in message
news:OjKnf.174048$Hs.7...@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
I am going to take my own advice and delete the rest of this thread, but
before I do, I want to note that if this is what you were told and you
believed it, then I forgive you for your statements.
>
> I'm Catholic, Glassman. Can you recall a time I have participated in an
> Inquisition, accused you or anyone else here of going to Hell or preached
> hate?
>
>
Steve you are a jewel of a guy. I know you are deeply religious, and I
have nothing but respect for you and your faith. Let me say first that if
you deleted the rest of this thread, as you said, then you won't have read
the origins of my views, or the other Catholic raised men that concurred
with them. You may not have been taught that the Jews were Christ killers
and were to be shunned & hated, and that ALL non believers would burn in
hell for eternity. If so you are in the minority. As I said I got many a
beating from good Catholic school boys for being a Christ killer, so I'm not
making this stuff up. This is word for word what was taught in Catholic
school when I was growing up in the 60's. In fact my best friend in the
world, ditched me because of being brainwashed with this mantra. He told me
years later.
Stavros wanted to know why his faith thread brought out all this
anti-Christian venom here. Sorry but I couldn't refrain from sharing my own
opinions. I still love you, as I do all my PCa brothers.
--
"Don't get me wrong... I'm SNARKY"
JK Sinrod
Sinrod Stained Glass Studios
Steve Kramer
> Steve you are a jewel of a guy. I know you are deeply religious, and I
> have nothing but respect for you and your faith. Let me say first that if
> you deleted the rest of this thread, as you said, then you won't have read
> the origins of my views, or the other Catholic raised men that concurred
> with them. You may not have been taught that the Jews were Christ killers
> and were to be shunned & hated, and that ALL non believers would burn in
> hell for eternity. If so you are in the minority. As I said I got many a
> beating from good Catholic school boys for being a Christ killer, so I'm
> not
> making this stuff up. This is word for word what was taught in Catholic
> school when I was growing up in the 60's. In fact my best friend in the
> world, ditched me because of being brainwashed with this mantra. He told
> me
> years later.
> Stavros wanted to know why his faith thread brought out all this
> anti-Christian venom here. Sorry but I couldn't refrain from sharing my
> own
> opinions. I still love you, as I do all my PCa brothers.
You are correct. I missed all that. And my cancer is none the worse.
However, to address the issues. My mother was a near-nun-to-be and left the
convent just before her final vows (you can do that). She soon married my
father and I soon became her first of 6 offspring. I went to Mass weekly
until grade school and daily from then on until high school. I went to a
Catholic School. I was in the boy's choir until my voice changed in the 7th
Grade. I went through Altar Boy training in the 4th Grade and continued
until I was in high school. And, as I have said here, that is when Catholic
High School clerics damned near ruined me in my religion.
The salient point to this is, I have a tremendous background in religious
training during my formative years. And, during the entire time, I never
once was told to hate Jews. I was never told to hate anyone. I was taught,
certainly, that Jews had Christ killed. I was also taught that Christ was a
Jew. Indeed, Jesus of Nazareth was a Jew and was the "Christ" for which the
Jews had been waiting for several millennia. It had been predicted in
Jewish journals and by famous Jewish men and formed their scriptures. Jesus
came in fulfillment of those scriptures and some Jews had him killed, also
fulfilling the scriptures.
Near the end of His life, Jesus formed a church. He put Peter (a Jew) in
charge of the church. At that time, anything that wasn't strictly Jewish
was Catholic. However, also at that time, no one was allowed into the
Church that was not Jewish. Most of the rules and rites were Jewish. It
was Paul who started recruiting Gentiles and eventually that caused a split
between Peter and Paul. Peter wanted nothing but Jews.
Throughout history, including way back to Moses, Abraham, etc., people of
various ilk have hated the Jews. I suspect almost everywhere Abraham went,
people hated the Jews (and with good reason). Egypt certainly hated Moses.
And David was not well-liked either. Up through modern times, Germans hated
the Jews and most recently Arab states (actually since the dawn of time).
But not once, have I heard of Roman Catholics, or any Catholics, persecuting
the Jews. Maybe Muslims, witches, scientists and heretics (out of apparent
ignorance and maybe greed), but not Jews.
I have to go to work and I've already written too much.
Glassman
>
I'm beginning to wonder if my growing up experiences were because I live
in a larger Jewish area? Many of you that grew up outside the NYC area may
have never encountered a real life sized tailwagging, horned, serpent
tongued Jew where you lived? We had churches and synagogues all over the
place but the funny thing of it was, it was only the little Jewish kids that
got beatings? Like Jackie Mason said, "I never heard of a Christian getting
beaten up by a gang of accountants".
Tdub
Glassman. For although a Christian in early life, I grew up with, and
was quite fond (as were many other gentiles) of, the many (delightful
and well-brought-up) jewish kids in our, if I may say, well-to-do (old
and storied) west Chicago suburb (where Frank Lloyd Wright and Ernest
Hemingway at times carried the day) but at the same time know the web
our parents weaved. They were racists and anti-semites plain and
simple. A sea change occurred with the baby boom generation,
particularly the mid to later baby boomers and beyond (I'm mid, born in
'50) - none of us, with very few exceptions, are racist or
anti-semitic. So I believe what you are talking about may be some of
the residuals from Americans born before WWII, nevertheless it is
highly regrettable and I feel for you and your comrades that you took
such abuse. Or maybe parts of NYC, like Archie Bunker, lagged behind on
the issue. I suppose I couldn't say the same thing about Berwyn and
Cicero in the Chicago area, as I do about my home town - it undoubtedly
took them longer to catch on to the "new world order" we are in today.
I. P. Freely
"Glassman" wrote
> I'm beginning to wonder if my growing up experiences were because I live
> in a larger Jewish area? Many of you that grew up outside the NYC area may
> have never encountered a real life sized tailwagging, horned, serpent
> tongued Jew where you lived? We had churches and synagogues all over the
> place but the funny thing of it was, it was only the little Jewish kids
> that
> got beatings? Like Jackie Mason said, "I never heard of a Christian
> getting
> beaten up by a gang of accountants".
Holy cow, guys . . . I HEARD a punch once, but I've never seen a real punch
thrown in my entire life. I've never known anyone who's even BEEN IN a fight
to my direct knowledge (i.e., in my neighborhood or school, for example),
with one exception -- a bud who looked for and found 'em in bars. I can't
comprehend fighting unless I can't outrun the SOB or get to a bigger weapon
than he has and shut the fight down; it's too likely to result in an injury
which could interfere with my sports, which are infinitely more important to
me than some idiot's ego or anger.
I.P.
DonC
>
>
> I'm beginning to wonder if my growing up experiences were because I
> live
> in a larger Jewish area? Many of you that grew up outside the NYC area may
> have never encountered a real life sized tailwagging, horned, serpent
> tongued Jew where you lived? We had churches and synagogues all over the
> place but the funny thing of it was, it was only the little Jewish kids
> that
> got beatings? Like Jackie Mason said, "I never heard of a Christian
> getting
> beaten up by a gang of accountants".
May be. And my growing up experiences were because I live(d) in a smaller
(100K) Mid-Western town with a broad mix of Protestants and Catholic and
only a sprinkle of Jews. And I, although a Catholic, attended public
schools. But then my youngest brother and sister did attend a Catholic
school through the 8th grade and their life experience isn't much different
than mine.
Steve Kramer
"I. P. Freely" <fuhghed...@noway.nohow> wrote in message
> Holy cow, guys . . . I HEARD a punch once, but I've never seen a real
> punch thrown in my entire life. I've never known anyone who's even BEEN IN
> a fight to my direct knowledge (i.e., in my neighborhood or school, for
> example), with one exception -- a bud who looked for and found 'em in
> bars. I can't comprehend fighting unless I can't outrun the SOB or get to
> a bigger weapon than he has and shut the fight down; it's too likely to
> result in an injury which could interfere with my sports, which are
> infinitely more important to me than some idiot's ego or anger.
Having had a tad more experience with such things, I long ago came to the
same conclusions. Avoid it if you can. Overwhelm him if you can't. And no
one gets out of a fight unscathed.
>
> I.P.
>
Alex
"Tdub" <grips...@email.com> wrote in message
news:1134706208....@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I'm not so sure that anti-Semitism is limited to prior generations or urban
areas. The following news story ran February 25, 2004, at the time Mel
Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ" was on movie screens:
DENVER -- A billboard unveiled on Ash Wednesday, the same day that a
controversial movie depicting the last hours of Jesus Christ premiered, is
sparking criticism from people of all faiths.
The large-size outdoor marquee, which sits on the property of the Lovingway
United Pentecostal Church at Colorado and Mississippi, says, "Jews Killed
The Lord Jesus" and the word "Settled!"
"It's settled," said Maurice Gorden, Lovingway pastor. "The word of God is
the final word."
I wonder what he would say if he was not the "loving way" pastor.
Alex
Glassman
"I. P. Freely" <fuhghed...@noway.nohow> wrote in message
news:XTrof.12576$Eu3...@fe07.lga...
>
I guess you haven't read all the stories on my Coney Island Memories
webpage. No spyware guaranteed. We grew up in the streets of Brooklyn, and
had real live fights almost daily. It was a way of life. Most were one on
one over candy, soda, girls, or whether the ball was fair of foul. Usually
they ended with an understanding of who you would try to avoid the next
time. The really bad ones were when the older kids would jump us and beat
the hell out of us for fun, or for our change, or because we had the nerve
to celebrate Chanukah the same time as Christmas. It got worse when the
neighborhood changed in the mid 60's, and gangs of poor black kids with
chips on their shoulders took to stealing, killing, and selling drugs. My
older brother got his jacket and shoes stolen at gunpoint. My mom was mugged
in broad daylight for her bag of groceries. I've was mugged so many times
for the change in my pocket at knifepoint I felt like a $5 hooker.
Surprisingly. I'm one of the few whites I know that isn't even a bit racist.
I came out of it with lots of street smarts, and the confidence to succeed
in life by marching to the beat of a different drummer, but that's what you
learn from the streets.
So how was I rewarded for my growing up to be an all around great guy and
family man? PCa that's how.
I. P. Freely
"Alex" wrote
> "It's settled," said Maurice Gorden, Lovingway pastor. "The word of God is
> the final word."
>
> I wonder what he would say if he was not the "loving way" pastor.
Or to radical Islam, which has vowed to eradicate his God from the planet.
I.P.
I. P. Freely
"Glassman" wrote
> We grew up in the streets of Brooklyn, and
> had real live fights almost daily. It was a way of life.
You city boys have a wierd form of recreation.
I.P.
Glassman
"I. P. Freely" <fuhghed...@noway.nohow> wrote in message
Hey we played ball, chased girls, drank beer, like all the rest of you
country guys. We just didn't have trees, grass, or NASCAR.
DonC
>>
> Hey we played ball, chased girls, drank beer, like all the rest of you
> country guys. We just didn't have trees, grass, or NASCAR.
>
Reminds me of a "special request" my then new sister-in-law from NJ made on
her first visit to Mid-Michigan. She wanted to walk in a corn field : )
I. P. Freely
"DonC" wrote
> Reminds me of a "special request" my then new sister-in-law from NJ made
on
> her first visit to Mid-Michigan. She wanted to walk in a corn field : )
A friend was walking through the boonies with his city-slicker wife. She
picked up an object from the ground and commented that it might make a good
candle-holder if painted. He told her what it was, and got a blank stare in
return. She shrieked and threw it back on the ground when he EXPLAINED what
a cow pie was.
I.P.
DonC
"I. P. Freely" <fuhghed...@noway.nohow> wrote in message
When my mother-in-law grew up in the Oklahoma panhandle, they used them for
fuel. They burned well but I've always wondered about the smell.