Autism and Rocking
Hylander
First, I have seen a very violent type of rocking...ie: with back
against the wall and body slamming the knees...almost looking like
contortion. (this was a severely autistic boy in his early teens from
Taiwan).
I have seen gentle rocking....off and on. Obviously the people that
rock like this don't rock when driving or standing but rock when
sitting and relaxing. It's just seems like a relaxing figetty type
thing.
Then I've seen no rocking...(but sometimes hair pulling, other strange
things).
I myself would either swing back on the couch (combined rocking and
gentle headbanging) or when I want to sit on the floor (because my
feet feel tired of dangling)...I might do it. I often do it when
playing board games. ....goes with the tension / excitement. (I like
to play strategy games like Risk)
One friend of mine today was rocking and I never saw him do it before.
He can socialize well but has a kind of flat affect too. Kind of
unique. Anyhow, it's interesting that you can be around others with
autism for a long time and maybe not know about it. Or is rocking
maybe common in those without? I prefer not to bring this up to him at
the moment.
Just curious...perhaps a poll maybe..How many do it? (unless you've
said so already here)
Also, should it be added to the code?
R+++ R--- R? R!
(Should there be a 2.0? What features do you want etc???)
John
Gareeth
> Also, should it be added to the code?
>
> R+++ R--- R? R!
>
> (Should there be a 2.0? What features do you want etc???)
>
I think rocking would be too hard to pin down. I do more than one variety. I
rock in different ways when I am concentrating or if I am amused for
instance. Occasionally I rock in short bursts for comfort. I seldom
violently rock preferring at times like that to get more feedback from my
body than rocking gives and would be more likely to slam myself into a wall
or wedge my head onto something hard for that sort of stimulus.
Gareeth
Andrea
> I have seen quite a variety of what is termed "Rocking".
> First, I have seen a very violent type of rocking...ie: with back
> against the wall and body slamming the knees...almost looking like
> contortion. (this was a severely autistic boy in his early teens from
> Taiwan).
>
> I have seen gentle rocking....off and on. Obviously the people that
> rock like this don't rock when driving or standing but rock when
> sitting and relaxing. It's just seems like a relaxing figetty type
> thing.
> John
My father sits on his sofa hands folded, and rocks back and forth very fast.
He still carries on even if he's rolling a cigarette. In fact if he is
sitting, he's rocking. It looks like it takes a lot of energy.
Is this rocking done by other people with other problems other than autisim?
Andrea.
Gareeth
>> Is this rocking done by other people with other problems other than
> autisim?
In some cultures rocking is not even seen as a problem. There are other
neurological condtions that can cause rocking to be present even if the
person does not want it to be though.
Gareeth
Andrea
I didn't see it as a problem growing up, until other people commented.
When I asked my dad why he rocks he said "I don't know I always have". He
hasn't seen it as something he doesnt want to do, I think he enjoys it.
What other the neurological conditons you mentioned?
--
Andrea.
sggaB the Slug
> I didn't see it as a problem growing up, until other people commented.
> When I asked my dad why he rocks he said "I don't know I always have". He
> hasn't seen it as something he doesnt want to do, I think he enjoys it.
> What other the neurological conditons you mentioned?
There's something that is currently classified as "stereotypic movement
disorder," in which an otherwise completely NT person involuntarily moves
in ways like that that could include rocking (or probably semi-voluntarily
would be the better term for it, since many people can stop doing it for
short or even long durations, but it comes back when they're not thinking
about it).
I'm sure some versions of Tourette's could cause tic-like rocking.
Extreme distress over a period of time or sensory deprivation can cause
some NTs to rock -- a number of people with PTSD rock, for instance. This
is sometimes voluntary and sometimes more of a reflex calming mechanism or
way of getting sensory feedback on their body.
--
If my post disagrees with someone, it doesn't mean I dislike them or want
to attack them. If my post agrees with someone, it doesn't mean I want to
form a social alliance with them. This is neither a war nor a status game
for me. This autism FAQ has more details: http://www.mugsy.org/asa_faq/
Gareeth
>
> There's something that is currently classified as "stereotypic
> movement disorder," in which an otherwise completely NT person
> involuntarily moves in ways like that that could include rocking (or
> probably semi-voluntarily would be the better term for it, since many
> people can stop doing it for short or even long durations, but it
> comes back when they're not thinking about it).
A neurologist who has a movement diorder clinic and was speaking at a
confference I went to ranted about stimming at some length. To his mind all
stimming was actually sterotypies and people were all idiots for using a
term that implied any degree of volition and that adults with autism who
said these sterotypies had any use were full of it basically. Have to love
the things you learn at conferences (not)
Gareeth
sggaB the Slug
Yecch.
I have heard a few autistic people who are uncomfortable with the term
stimming because most of their stims are involuntary. Personally I don't
see what the problem is even *when* it's involuntary -- I'm not totally
convinced that my involuntary stimming isn't fulfilling some *stimulatory*
function, for one, and second, I just don't see what the big deal is about
calling it stimming. I also can stim more voluntarily.
And I think *both* are probably useful in some way to my body. That was
really obvious yesterday when I went to San Jose to buy a hard drive.
On the way home I'd hit that point of sensory buffer overflow where I
could no longer make any sense of my surroundings whatsoever and was
becoming increasingly uncomfortable and overloaded in some really
fundamental way (basically I could see more things coming at my sensory
comprehension buffer *way* faster than I could *begin* to understand them).
And at that point stimming was the only way I could do something other than
start screaming. Sometimes I even cycle through a bunch of stims in a
situation like that trying to find the one that will be most effective.
Sometimes my body kicks in and provides the proper stim without me thinking
about it (or sometimes even noticing -- I remember once when that happened
hearing my mom say, "Does rocking *help*?" and I hadn't noticed I was
rocking).
This time actually getting my head scritched was sufficient sensory
stimulation to calm down the rest of my system. But other times it's
something like rocking, flapping, hitting my chin, hitting some other
part of my body, or clapping.
I can't imagine why any *real* competent neurologist would want to ignore
evidence like that, but it seems like a common thing to do.
Tom Staight
I do it all the time when I'm at the computer. Sometimes when I'm
watching TV, but mainly on the computer and reading. I sometimes need to
stop myself from doing it in public, because I get the feeling people
would get a bit freaked out. I don't know about anywhere else but at
least in this part of Britain people get highly un-nerved by
"un-naturalness".
I agree that it should be in the code. I think possibly personality
traits should be added... I'm not entirely sure how to explain what I'm
thinking of, though.
Tom
Hylander
> Hylander wrote:
> > Also, should it be added to the code?
> >
> > R+++ R--- R? R!
> >
> > (Should there be a 2.0? What features do you want etc???)
> >
>
> I think rocking would be too hard to pin down. I do more than one variety.
You could use R# or something. ??? The R though, would basically
indicate some kind of rocking I suppose. Just a thought.
> I
> rock in different ways when I am concentrating or if I am amused for
> instance. Occasionally I rock in short bursts for comfort.
I think I actually do too. Most of the time, my legs are doing it.
> I seldom
> violently rock preferring at times like that to get more feedback from my
> body than rocking gives and would be more likely to slam myself into a wall
> or wedge my head onto something hard for that sort of stimulus.
I've rocked "drastically" a couple of times....and used to do the kind
on the couch that included mild head banging....
You bring up an interesting topic...rocking in order to get feedback.
It seems to make sense from my perspective.
John
Hylander
Unfortunately, in Asian cultures, rocking is bad luck. So is bouncing
the leg. They say you are unlucky and poor if you have that habit. My
inlaws actually had problems with me because of this issue....even
moreso than other aspects of my background.
John
Hylander
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 10:20:10 -0000, Andrea <andre...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I didn't see it as a problem growing up, until other people commented.
> > When I asked my dad why he rocks he said "I don't know I always have". He
> > hasn't seen it as something he doesnt want to do, I think he enjoys it.
>
> > What other the neurological conditons you mentioned?
>
> There's something that is currently classified as "stereotypic movement
> disorder," in which an otherwise completely NT person involuntarily moves
> in ways like that that could include rocking (or probably semi-voluntarily
> would be the better term for it, since many people can stop doing it for
> short or even long durations, but it comes back when they're not thinking
> about it).
I saw that mentioned too. In fact, they mention many varieties of
causes....ie: CP/Parkinsons as "Movement Disorders" but perhaps the
"with no apparent cause" one is SMD. In sum, there is a whole catalog
of disorders associated with types of movement.
http://www.neurologychannel.com/movementdisorders/
>
> I'm sure some versions of Tourette's could cause tic-like rocking.
I thought tics were in the face and other aeras of the body. Is there
really "tic" rocking? I actually have tics....and in the middle of the
night, I have body "tics". ie: where an arm or leg will move suddenly
of its own accord.
I could have Tourettes in addition to what I have. I also have
slightly "curled" hands. (very noticable because I write kind of
upside down)
When I was born, my hands were curled and I was characterized as a
"boxer" because of my hand movements/tics.
> Extreme distress over a period of time or sensory deprivation can cause
> some NTs to rock -- a number of people with PTSD rock, for instance. This
> is sometimes voluntary and sometimes more of a reflex calming mechanism or
> way of getting sensory feedback on their body.
Yes. PTSD (is that Parkinsons? or post traumatic stress ?) Anyhow, in
the military veteran's hospital, you have people who have had repeated
"Battle Fatigue Syndrome/Disorder". They rock and stare (much like in
the movies) sometimes. I wonder if this kind of rocking is a kind of
maternal-neonate type of regression. (ie: like the often mentioned
fetal position)....I think I've heard some professionals mention this
one.
Seems to me kind of like how adult cats like the top of their head
brushed and "kneading" (for those that don't know, it's clawing
alternate front paws on something soft...either out of comfort
sensations or to pillow and firm soft materials they will be sleeping
on (and hence make more insulating/supportive)) . (kneading is an
instinct that comes from nursing days for stimulating milk too). The
brushing is often how adult cats comfort kittens and stimulate them to
nurse when their breasts are engorged. (it also indicates the
initiation of bath time by mom sometimes). I've observed quite a few
cat births/weanings.
John
~~ Tricia
"sggaB the Slug" <ama...@autistics.org>
> Extreme distress over a period of time or sensory deprivation can cause
> some NTs to rock -- a number of people with PTSD rock, for instance. This
> is sometimes voluntary and sometimes more of a reflex calming mechanism or
> way of getting sensory feedback on their body.
Last year my father-in-law went through two weeks of various unsuccessful
heart and abdominal surgeries for an aneurysm. The morning his life support
was turned off, it was brought to my attention that for at least an hour, I
had been rocking in time with his heart monitor. I had no idea I was doing
it until I was told. I couldn't help it; it was completely involuntary. I
tried to stop, but couldn't. What's even more odd was that I continued to
do it even when they turned the monitor's sound off, and still in rhythm
with his heartbeat. How I was doing this I don't know. Sort of spooky.
John's not much of a rocker, but he is usually in motion in some way. Very
wiggly.
~~~ T ~~~
Jeremy Reece
> It's just seems like a relaxing figetty type thing.
That's me.
I'm not sure that I'd describe it as rocking as such (which to me
suggests larger body movements) but I tap my feet quite a lot
(subconciously), normally starting out slowly but if I realise/allow
it to, it gets faster and more intense the longer I let it go on. I
*cannot* sit completely still for more than a few seconds - when I'm
at home "sit still!" is probably the most spoken phrase in the house
(like telling me to stop it is going to make any difference).
I'm also somewhat prone to the stereotypical finger flapping from time
to time (when stressed/overloaded mainly) but this is normally at
least semi-deliberate and kept mainly out of sight (hands vanish up my
sleeves).
> Then I've seen no rocking...(but sometimes hair pulling, other strange
> things).
I tend also to pick at my lips (pulling off any flappy bits of dead
skin). Can be quite painful at this time of year.
> Also, should it be added to the code?
>
> R+++ R--- R? R!
>
> (Should there be a 2.0? What features do you want etc???)
Maybe. Or perhaps a block for stimming in general (although there's
already 'S' (senses) and 's' (shape) blocks).
A stimmy block could be *very* complex though (having to deal with
other (including non-physical) types of stims) and would presumably
have to bring in the / modifier (which in other similar code systems
means "and", which is used to separate values when multiple tokens are
equally relevant).
I think any future ASC version would need to be well thought through,
though. At the moment it's pretty much perfect in terms of the effort
it takes to generate/read (or even decode :-P ) a code, versus how
much relevant info you can get back from it. Expanding it too far
could make it like Geek Code, which IMO is over-bloated.
--
Jeremy Reece
AS! d-(---) s:-->: a-- c+++ p+ t+(-)@ f(-)
S+ p+ e+>++ h+ r--(*) n+() i@ P->+ m(-) M---
http://www32.brinkster.com/ascdecode/
herculles
Hylander, you like to play Risk? Do you know of any good online place
to play Risk interactively? I used to take the Risk board and make my
own "ocean provinces" to change the mechanics of the game. I mean,
everyone knows that Australia is the key to winning in Traditional
Risk, but have you ever considered who would be fighting over
Antartica!!! Take Antartica and you can get Argentina and wipe out the
West African connection.
Also, have you ever played Diplomacy before? If you liked Risk,
Diplomacy is even more fun, because there is no snowball effect from
the Risk card sets. I made my own variant of diplomacy too since (**
don't look if you have never played Diplomacy.... ) Ankara and the
other Turkish provinces are the clincher.
And I don't rock. I flex my feet.
Herculles (... its not easy being a superhero.)
Ron Hedgcock
Ron
Hylander
I was supposedly, the worst kid in church at wiggling/not sitting. I
got the attention of speakers at the pulpit many a time. My parents
never did like negative attention. I was always beat with a belt for
doing it too. That or teasing sisters.
John
> ~~~ T ~~~
Tom Staight
My parents took me out of Sunday school and made me sit in church
(although I don't think they did it entirely voluntarily) because one
day in the middle of the service *WHEN I WAS 6* I shouted "This isn't
real! God's just an excuse to keep kids under control!".
I tended to get quite "fidgety" in Church.
Tom
Hylander
Hehe. I think I was quite a firm believer at a young age...however, I
had a similar response when my mom would use "Santa's elves" and
"Brownie 99 is watching". I think I was naturally a little
gullible...and still am, however I'm still rather fond of an idea of
"perfection" in the universe. My biggest problem is why perhaps the
gods don't go intergalactic bowling. I mean, you never see a shooting
star knocking down any constellations. Well, someone got the sun to
stand still once.....that would be cool if it happened sometime in our
day. I'm wondering if anyone recorded this event at all or if it went
the way of spiders having 6 legs.
> I tended to get quite "fidgety" in Church.
I think I downright stimmed until I tranferred my stims to more
socially acceptable/equally pleasing ones.
Terry Jones
>Well, someone got the sun to
>stand still once.....that would be cool if it happened sometime in our
>day.
Actually wouldn't it be *warm* for the people underneath? :)
Terry
Tom Staight
> Tom Staight <use...@templeofdreams.net> wrote in message news:<RR%Nb.128$qP5...@news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk>...
>
>>My parents took me out of Sunday school and made me sit in church
>>(although I don't think they did it entirely voluntarily) because one
>>day in the middle of the service *WHEN I WAS 6* I shouted "This isn't
>>real! God's just an excuse to keep kids under control!".
>
> Hehe. I think I was quite a firm believer at a young age...however, I
> had a similar response when my mom would use "Santa's elves" and
> "Brownie 99 is watching". I think I was naturally a little
> gullible...and still am, however I'm still rather fond of an idea of
> "perfection" in the universe. My biggest problem is why perhaps the
> gods don't go intergalactic bowling. I mean, you never see a shooting
> star knocking down any constellations. Well, someone got the sun to
> stand still once.....that would be cool if it happened sometime in our
> day. I'm wondering if anyone recorded this event at all or if it went
> the way of spiders having 6 legs.
That sounds so fun in an inspirationally imaginative way, that I'm
thinking of making a picture... =)
>>I tended to get quite "fidgety" in Church.
>
> I think I downright stimmed until I tranferred my stims to more
> socially acceptable/equally pleasing ones.
Ditto. Now I'm not flapping and tapping and touching anymore, I now have
more friends, for better or for worse. I guess containing or repackaging
the behavior doesn't make it go away, but at least it makes it more
manageable!
=)
Tom
Hylander
For a short period of time, it would be like a summer day. Perhaps a
heat wave might follow somewehre..??? :)
Terry Jones
>> >Well, someone got the sun to
>> >stand still once.....that would be cool if it happened sometime in our
>> >day.
>>
>> Actually wouldn't it be *warm* for the people underneath? :)
>
>heat wave might follow somewehre..??? :)
And what if it was *already* a summer day? (And remember that it's the
Middle East we're talking about here). - And what about countries
*further* towards the equator? - Or those regions which *missed out*
on their due heat input?
Irresponsible use of divinity if you ask me. :\
Terry
Terry Jones
>> gods don't go intergalactic bowling. I mean, you never see a shooting
>> star knocking down any constellations.
>That sounds so fun in an inspirationally imaginative way, that I'm
>thinking of making a picture... =)
Already been done in Red Dwarf (well actually planetary snooker, but
the same general principle :)
Terry
Tom Staight
I saw that episode. It was, IMHO, most entertaining.
Then again, Red Dwarf often was =)
Tom
Hylander
Perhaps that's why there are no blatant proofs lying around. If you
ask someone, they might feel it was irresponsible. Of course, some
hold a big grudge regardless.
Terry Jones
>> >For a short period of time, it would be like a summer day. Perhaps a
>> >heat wave might follow somewehre..??? :)
>>
>> And what if it was *already* a summer day? (And remember that it's the
>> Middle East we're talking about here). - And what about countries
>> *further* towards the equator? - Or those regions which *missed out*
>> on their due heat input?
>>
>> Irresponsible use of divinity if you ask me. :\
>
>Perhaps that's why there are no blatant proofs lying around. If you
>ask someone, they might feel it was irresponsible. Of course, some
>hold a big grudge regardless.
You mean that the "crime scene" was sanitised?
I rather forget how long it was supposed to have been for - a "day"
and a "night" was it? So maybe not sufficient for long term geological
effects.
Still think about the massive tidal waves resulting from suddenly
stopping the Earth's rotation - that would have left some evidence.
Or maybe it was done when we had a geocentric universe, and wouldn't
work nowadays :)
Terry
sggaB the Slug
> Or maybe it was done when we had a geocentric universe, and wouldn't
> work nowadays :)
I first read that as "when we had a geriatric universe".
Terry Jones
>> work nowadays :)
>
>I first read that as "when we had a geriatric universe".
Isn't that one which has a Zimmer frame of reference?
Hylander
That would be fun. Fear of a Geriatric Planet. Perhaps instead of
microsoft monopoly, it would be a dentucream or aspercream monopoly.
Hylander
> Hylander wrote:
> >> >For a short period of time, it would be like a summer day. Perhaps a
> >> >heat wave might follow somewehre..??? :)
> >>
> >> And what if it was *already* a summer day? (And remember that it's the
> >> Middle East we're talking about here). - And what about countries
> >> *further* towards the equator? - Or those regions which *missed out*
> >> on their due heat input?
> >>
> >> Irresponsible use of divinity if you ask me. :\
> >
> >Perhaps that's why there are no blatant proofs lying around. If you
> >ask someone, they might feel it was irresponsible. Of course, some
> >hold a big grudge regardless.
>
> You mean that the "crime scene" was sanitised?
May be.
> I rather forget how long it was supposed to have been for - a "day"
> and a "night" was it? So maybe not sufficient for long term geological
> effects.
I thought it was for a few hours....battle of Jericho. What are you
referring to?
> Still think about the massive tidal waves resulting from suddenly
> stopping the Earth's rotation - that would have left some evidence.
Depends, it could have been gradual to the point of being normal or
slightly above normal tides.
> Or maybe it was done when we had a geocentric universe, and wouldn't
> work nowadays :)
Perhaps. Sometimes science is surprising. You know, if the redshift is
the same in every direction...what does that tell you? (truth be
known, we are/were the center...but so was most everything
else....according to physicists. (they liken it to cookie(chocolate)
chips in cookie dough when the universe expanded)
Perhaps if we find quasars in just one direction....
John
Terry Jones
>> I rather forget how long it was supposed to have been for - a "day"
>> and a "night" was it? So maybe not sufficient for long term geological
>> effects.
>
>I thought it was for a few hours....battle of Jericho. What are you
>referring to?
The "sun standing still" triggered a memory association with "a day
and a night" - could be a false link though.
>> Still think about the massive tidal waves resulting from suddenly
>> stopping the Earth's rotation - that would have left some evidence.
>
>Depends, it could have been gradual to the point of being normal or
>slightly above normal tides.
Not so sure if it was "on demand" in response to some specific event
like a battle - Anyone able to estimate how long it would take to slow
down the Earth's rotation to zero without the oceans "slopping" (or at
least not by more than the normal peak tides)?
[Side issue - I still can't understand how we get *two* lunar tides a
day - *One* makes perfectly good sense, but what mechanism causes a
high tide on the *opposite* side of the Earth?]
Terry
growi...@hotmail.com
> [Side issue - I still can't understand how we get *two* lunar tides a
> day - *One* makes perfectly good sense, but what mechanism causes a
> high tide on the *opposite* side of the Earth?]
Easy.
When the moon is at a particular location, it pulls the water nearest
it the most, because gravity depends on distance. It pulls the water
on the far side the least, a lot less then the water at the "sides" of
the earth. So it doesn't pull as much of the water on the far side
as on any other place on earth, making that water "higher" simply
because it isn't relocated as much as any of the other water on the
planet.
--
Joel
Larry
there is rocking while seated.
I rock while standing and while seated and while singing in church. A lot of
the time I don't realise I am rocking.
--
Larry
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the
continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy
friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am
involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells
tolls; it tolls for thee." ... John Donne
"Hylander" <dontbotherm...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a6947dd8.0401...@posting.google.com...
Larry
volitional, but then I cannot be sure whether righting this is volitional
either or that the neurologist had any choice in what he was saying :)
I have a choice of sigs now, or do I really ????
--
Larry
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the
continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy
friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am
involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells
tolls; it tolls for thee." ... John Donne
"Gareeth" <Garee...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:bu8ghb$f1rnt$1...@ID-169619.news.uni-berlin.de...
> sggaB the Slug wrote:
> >
> A neurologist who has a movement diorder clinic and was speaking at a
> confference I went to ranted about stimming at some length. To his mind
all
> stimming was actually sterotypies and people were all idiots for using a
> term that implied any degree of volition and that adults with autism who
> said these sterotypies had any use were full of it basically. Have to love
> the things you learn at conferences (not)
>
> Gareeth
>
>
Larry
--
Larry
"No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the
continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy
friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am
involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells
tolls; it tolls for thee." ... John Donne
"Ron Hedgcock" <hed...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:40086011$0$4049$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Hylander
> Well there is rocking on ones heels back and forth and there is swaying and
> there is rocking while seated.
>
> I rock while standing and while seated and while singing in church. A lot of
> the time I don't realise I am rocking.
Church meetings and seminars (blech!), I do tend to rock at or cause
minor earthquake tremors. (Good thing I'm not in SFO)....
herculles
out the world? Does biting fingernails count as a type of rocking?
dontbotherm...@hotmail.com (Hylander) wrote in message news:<a6947dd8.04011...@posting.google.com>...
Hylander
> Do you have to be a rock it scientist to appreciate this way to block
> out the world?
Pretty much.
> Does biting fingernails count as a type of rocking?
It can in a way if done correctly. Many "bouncy"/"fidget","rocking"
type things are normal. Even NTs have rocking chairs so they can
"rock". Some kids are born with their own built in rocker ;). I think
the frequency is what counts. People spin plates for fun sometimes but
if you do it for 16+ hours a day, people will eventually suspect
something.