"I do myself! ...on the second thought, why should I?"
corbe...@juno.com
used to drive my parents crazy was my total unwillingness to volunteer
to do things. You know how every parent is filled with pride when a
child says “I do myself!”? Well, I never did. I was not lazy – if I
needed something, and nobody was doing it, I would do it. And if TOLD
to do something, I almost always did uncomplainingly. But “I do
myself!” simply held no pleasure or satisfaction to me the way it does
for neurotypical children. If I need something done, and someone else
(e.g. my parents) is doing it, why should I bother? Better spend my
time doing something they are NOT doing. Which is very logical if you
think of it. But it is contrary to usual expectations, and made my
parents think I was selfish or overly-dependent.
In the same vein, few times I ran into teachers who tried to teach via
Socratic dialogue, it utterly failed with me. My reaction was
basically “You are the teacher. You are supposed to be teaching me.
Why are you asking ME these questions?”
I suspect it is related to my general lack of competitiveness and one-
upmanship. I never, ever want to do something merely because someone
else has done it. Again, I am far from lazy – if I decide to
accomplish something, I will work on it very hard, whether the goal is
physical or intellectual. (Ironically, I am a 44 year old computer
nerd yet in better physical shape than at least 80% of neurotypical
men of my age.) But I have to decide on that goal myself, for my own
reasons. “Wouldn’t it be cool to be like Jones” does not even occur to
me, which is why many standard motivational techniques do not work on
me, and for a longest time I could not even understand the concept of
“role model” – “Yes, Dr. XYZ is a physician AND a fighter pilot – what
does it have to do with me?”
Has anyone else here had similar experiences?
Zeke Zebedee
mean by "I do myself" I immediatly think it is cognate with "I top myself"
that is to say "I do myself in" at a lower level as a Pajero driver (Would
Larry Arnold ever sink so low) thoughts spring to "Madam palm and her five
lovely daughters)
My dad introduced me to Socratic dialogue, it was one of his higher
achievements much better than the rest of his discourse introducing me to
the Drill Sergeants dialogue.
Full Metal Jacket for the first twenty one years of your life, nah give me
Socrates anyday.
Eke it's Zeke (or could it ever be?)
<corbe...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:266af82a-7ff9-4fd4...@o19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Digby
> To be honest I have "communication difficulties" in understanding what you
> mean by "I do myself" I immediatly think it is cognate with "I top myself"
> that is to say "I do myself in" at a lower level as a Pajero driver (Would
> Larry Arnold ever sink so low) thoughts spring to "Madam palm and her five
> lovely daughters)
>
> My dad introduced me to Socratic dialogue, it was one of his higher
> achievements much better than the rest of his discourse introducing me to
> the Drill Sergeants dialogue.
>
> Full Metal Jacket for the first twenty one years of your life, nah give me
> Socrates anyday.
>
> Eke it's Zeke (or could it ever be?)
>
larry just posted a load of psseudointelllectual bullshit.
wot a fuckin moron.
corbe...@juno.com
> To be honest I have "communication difficulties" in understanding what you
> mean by "I do myself"
It means when you start tying a small child's shoes, and child says
"No, don't! I do myself!" -- and ties his own shoes (or makes a
valiant effort, anyway).
Stephen Wilson
"Zeke Zebedee" <ti...@forbed.com> wrote in message
news:i3faf0$sdb$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> To be honest I have "communication difficulties" in understanding what you
> mean by "I do myself" I immediatly think it is cognate with "I top myself"
> that is to say "I do myself in" at a lower level as a Pajero driver (Would
> Larry Arnold ever sink so low) thoughts spring to "Madam palm and her five
> lovely daughters)
Try adding in the missing words. "I can do it myself", or "I can do it on my
own."
Arak
> I am not sure how widespread it is among Aspies, but one thing which
> used to drive my parents crazy was my total unwillingness to volunteer
> to do things.
I never volunteered to do housework, but I would volunteer to go to
the store for my mother because it meant getting out of the house by
myself and having a bit of freedom.
> You know how every parent is filled with pride when a
> child says “I do myself!”? Well, I never did. I was not lazy – if I
> needed something, and nobody was doing it, I would do it. And if TOLD
> to do something, I almost always did uncomplainingly. But “I do
> myself!” simply held no pleasure or satisfaction to me the way it does
> for neurotypical children. If I need something done, and someone else
> (e.g. my parents) is doing it, why should I bother? Better spend my
> time doing something they are NOT doing. Which is very logical if you
> think of it. But it is contrary to usual expectations, and made my
> parents think I was selfish or overly-dependent.
>
I'm thinking you are referring to kids who want to do things by
themselves and not have it done for them. I was one of those kids who
hated being dependent on others (still do). I would do my best to
learn and do things on my own, so no one would have to do it for me. I
learned to cook when I was 7 by watching my mother and was self-taught
on a lot of skills like reading and writing. I went and got my first
job at 13 on my own because I wanted to earn my own money and not have
to depend on others to give it to me. I moved out at 19 as soon as I
was financially able.
On another note, if someone said I was incapable of doing something,
that would just motivate me to do in order to prove them wrong.
My entire youth was dedicated to establishing independence ASAP. I
think that might have stemmed from what was done to me as a kid at the
institution. I learned that depending on others or letting others make
decisions for me was painful, horrible and not something I ever wanted
to happen again. Plus I found adults to be unreliable. I was promised
many things that never came to fruition. Better to do it myself... at
least if it doesn't happen, I have only myself to blame.
I'm thinking I was the opposite to you.
The idea of being dependent on someone else to do something for me is
just unthinkable!
On the other hand, if someone told me to do something, I'd be less
likely to do it because it was being done at the will of someone else
and not me. If someone asked or offered some sort of reciprocal thing
such as money or help with something, I'd be willing to do it. If it
was my idea, then I would do it and do it well. I didn't take well to
orders, I guess. (Good thing I never joined the military!)
> In the same vein, few times I ran into teachers who tried to teach via
> Socratic dialogue, it utterly failed with me. My reaction was
> basically “You are the teacher. You are supposed to be teaching me.
> Why are you asking ME these questions?”
I loved answering questions and I found that the best way for me to
learn is to teach. I didn't like people dictating to me. I preferred
the question/answer dialogue... which didn't happen too often when I
was in school.
>
> I suspect it is related to my general lack of competitiveness and one-
> upmanship.
I'm not competitive either. I do things for my benefit, not to show
another person up.
> But I have to decide on that goal myself, for my own
> reasons. “Wouldn’t it be cool to be like Jones” does not even occur to
> me, which is why many standard motivational techniques do not work on
> me, and for a longest time I could not even understand the concept of
> “role model” – “Yes, Dr. XYZ is a physician AND a fighter pilot – what
> does it have to do with me?”
I created my own role models through my stories and I do have a few
role models in life as well. It was more fun to create my own based on
my own ideals, though.
>
> Has anyone else here had similar experiences?
Apparently not in my case. Perhaps it is different for others.
Arak /|\
Dolphinius
> I am not sure how widespread it is among Aspies, but one thing which
> used to drive my parents crazy was my total unwillingness to volunteer
> to do things.
I was like that when I was young.
> You know how every parent is filled with pride when a
> child says “I do myself!”?
I don't understand that phrase.
> Well, I never did. I was not lazy – if I
> needed something, and nobody was doing it, I would do it.
Yes, I was like that.
> And if TOLD
> to do something, I almost always did uncomplainingly.
I complained sometimes.
> But “I do myself!” simply held no pleasure or satisfaction to me the way it does
> for neurotypical children. If I need something done, and someone else
> (e.g. my parents) is doing it, why should I bother? Better spend my
> time doing something they are NOT doing. Which is very logical if you
> think of it. But it is contrary to usual expectations, and made my
> parents think I was selfish or overly-dependent.
Yes, I think that is similar to the way I thought (or sub-consciously
thought).
> In the same vein, few times I ran into teachers who tried to teach via
> Socratic dialogue, it utterly failed with me. My reaction was
> basically “You are the teacher. You are supposed to be teaching me.
> Why are you asking ME these questions?”
I am not sure how I would have reacted to this as a child. I don't
recall any teachers trying this on. I would react well now. As an
adult, I tend to find this is a good way of teaching other people.
> I suspect it is related to my general lack of competitiveness and one-
> upmanship. I never, ever want to do something merely because someone
> else has done it.
I am quite competitive, but only in terms of achieving results rather
than perception. I don't like being competitive, but it is instinctive
(except where I realise I cannot compete then I don't).
> Again, I am far from lazy – if I decide to
> accomplish something, I will work on it very hard, whether the goal is
> physical or intellectual. (Ironically, I am a 44 year old computer
> nerd yet in better physical shape than at least 80% of neurotypical
> men of my age.) But I have to decide on that goal myself, for my own
> reasons. “Wouldn’t it be cool to be like Jones” does not even occur to
> me, which is why many standard motivational techniques do not work on
> me
Yes. I am immune to most NT motivational techniques. I am very good at
motivating myself when I can see a clear rationale, but for anyone to
convince me of anything then first they have to get me to convince
myself, which is usually based on argument (objective and rational
logic) rather than anything emotional.
> and for a longest time I could not even understand the concept of
> “role model” – “Yes, Dr. XYZ is a physician AND a fighter pilot – what
> does it have to do with me?”
I don't pay much regard to role models. I benchmark myself against
what I would like to be, not what someone else is like.
Dolphinius
(Male, late thirties, UK, self-diagnosed AS)
Zeke Zebedee
agility and I would put it to you that you go off and practice.
"Digby" <pingpe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:026bb919-9977-407a...@m1g2000yqo.googlegroups.com...
On 5 Aug, 22:29, "Zeke Zebedee" <t...@forbed.com>
> <corbell5...@juno.com> wrote in message
Raving
:D
Qman
An abundant amount of sanity in your post. Nice to meet someone uber
"normal".
Judging by what you have said here, you adjusted quite well to being
dfferent. Moreso than me.
I have the impression your "laziness" was not due to what I call autistic
inertia...which is the difficulty in changing thought directions, multitask
or simply becoming motivated to start something new. If this is so I envy
you.
Your logic seems to be beautifully autistic in nature and I am not surprised
the NTs around you were mistaken as to your intent. In makes me angry that
our way of thinking is not respected by seemingly most NTs.
My understanding of autism is that we are not generally selfish. Rather, we
are simply self-contained and need less social interaction due to the simple
fact that we are not driven the way most NTs seem to be.
Nice point about the lack of the need to indulge in one-upmanship...very
little need to keep up with the Jones. I suspect that much of this nonsense
which autistics may embrace may be due to social indocrination which, for
us, is largely misleading or irrelevent. "I don't chase other people's
rainbows" these days.
Regarding defining your own goals, this is something which has taken me some
time to feel comfortable with but I whole-heartedly embrace these days.
From what I can see you are a particularly well adjusted autie
Cheers...
<corbe...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:266af82a-7ff9-4fd4...@o19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Qman
"Zeke Zebedee" <ti...@forbed.com> wrote in message
news:i3n7ld$vee$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Qman
down." I suspect there is a greater tendancy for autistics to think this way
than NTs (particularly in youth).
"Arak" <arak.t...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:199989aa-198d-47b0...@u26g2000yqu.googlegroups.com...
Bob Badour
> "Zeke Zebedee" <ti...@forbed.com> wrote in message
> news:i3n7ld$vee$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>
>>Well I might respectfully suggest somes thing are a matter of endowment or
>>agility and I would put it to you that you go off and practice.
>
> Am I right is deducing digby is a troll?
Yes, digby is a troll. If there was any doubt as to the identity of
Zeke, his post above removes it.
corbe...@juno.com
> "normal".
Thank you! :)
> Judging by what you have said here, you adjusted quite well to being
> dfferent. Moreso than me.
>
> I have the impression your "laziness" was not due to what I call autistic
> inertia...which is the difficulty in changing thought directions, multitask
> or simply becoming motivated to start something new. If this is so I envy
> you.
Actually I have that too to some extent -- but that's not what my OP
was about.
> My understanding of autism is that we are not generally selfish. Rather, we
> are simply self-contained and need less social interaction due to the simple
> fact that we are not driven the way most NTs seem to be.
I suppose that falls under definition of "self-centered". Which is not
really the same as "selfish", but most NT people who happen to be one
are also the other. Hence, misunderstanding.
corbe...@juno.com
> think that might have stemmed from what was done to me as a kid at the
> institution. I learned that depending on others or letting others make
> decisions for me was painful, horrible and not something I ever wanted
> to happen again. Plus I found adults to be unreliable. I was promised
> many things that never came to fruition. Better to do it myself... at
> least if it doesn't happen, I have only myself to blame.
>
> I'm thinking I was the opposite to you.
It does seem like you are almost exact opposit of me. I was never in
an institution, and adults around me in my youth were usually
reliable... which made it so distressing when they were not.
> The idea of being dependent on someone else to do something for me is
> just unthinkable!
It's not that I *wanted* to be dependent on someone else -- more like
dependency was invisible to me. It was "just how things are". And when
I grew up and found that I had to rely on myself, two things happened
repeatedly: Whenever someone took time to explain/show me how to do
something, I would thereafter do it quite well on my own. Whenever I
had to "teach myself" something, results were disastrous. I just do
not learn things well on my own.
> On the other hand, if someone told me to do something, I'd be less
> likely to do it because it was being done at the will of someone else
> and not me.
Yet another point of you and me being opposite. When I was a child, if
an adult I trusted (such as parent) told me I can't do something, I
would accept it as truth and *stop trying*. (Not that my parents ever
did -- they quickly learned that motivating me through reverse
psychology is a BAD IDEA.) Since I've been old enough to recognize
reverse psychology when I see it, I ignore it completely -- it neither
motivates nor demotivates me.
> If someone asked or offered some sort of reciprocal thing
> such as money or help with something, I'd be willing to do it. If it
> was my idea, then I would do it and do it well. I didn't take well to
> orders, I guess. (Good thing I never joined the military!)
I did quite well in the military -- until I got bored.
> I created my own role models through my stories and I do have a few
> role models in life as well. It was more fun to create my own based on
> my own ideals, though.
I've heard of some Aspies doing something like that ("What would Xena
do?"), but this never occurred to me either. "What would <x> do?" is
essentially unanswerable question to me, whether <x> is a real person,
a literary character, or someone from my own imagination. Even today I
still have terrible grasp on other people's motivations and reactions.
In everyday interactions I just count on people acting as I had seen
them act. Most of the time it suffices.
Eva
<corbe...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:1bdfab8b-f2ca-4182...@t20g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
<snip>
> I've heard of some Aspies doing something like that ("What would Xena
> do?"), but this never occurred to me either. "What would <x> do?" is
> essentially unanswerable question to me, whether <x> is a real person,
> a literary character, or someone from my own imagination. Even today I
> still have terrible grasp on other people's motivations and reactions.
> In everyday interactions I just count on people acting as I had seen
> them act.
I could have written the above paragraph, that's how exactly you have
described my own personal experience.
--------------
>Most of the time it suffices.
Here, I can only say I *wish* it sufficed most of the time. Maybe it
suffices 3/4 of the time. The rest of the time I get berated....I suppose
for assuming the future would be like the past.
Okay, I guess 3/4 of the time does qualify as "most of the time." Never
mind. (:^)
Eva
Qman
>Whenever I
> had to "teach myself" something, results were disastrous. I just do
> not learn things well on my own.
Same here but amazingly in many ways I had a geat deal more insight into
some things than my NT peers.
To this day, however, most new things are very intimidating to confront
initially. After overcoming the mental block I often wonder why there was
such a major hesitation.
I am not sure if this is typically autistic, but for much of my life I
needed permission to do things.
> I did quite well in the military -- until I got bored.
How does someone who has Aspergers do well in the army?
On the autistic spectrum you must be extremely high functioning. Facinating.
> Even today I
> still have terrible grasp on other people's motivations and reactions.
> In everyday interactions I just count on people acting as I had seen
> them act. Most of the time it suffices.
I call not being able to anticipate the reactions of others "social
blindness". I basically have given up and am reaching the point of saying
the absolute minimum to attain my goals/needs.
In fear of stepping on toes, may I ask what your basic life philosophy is?
corbe...@juno.com
> On the autistic spectrum you must be extremely high functioning. Facinating.
I do very well with rigid routine, I like following procedure, and
(mostly) do not mind following orders -- when they are clear and
concise. I would say USAF boot camp was easier for me than for at
least 2/3 of my NT peers. I recall one thing which annoyed me most was
the regulation that all "detail" (maintenance work around the base)
had to be done standing up, even when it was more efficient to do
sitting down. Stuff like marching, cleaning specks of lint off
uniform, reporting in robotic phrases, all was easy to me. Come to
think of it, boot camp recruits are required to *act like autistics*
in many ways! There is a reason everything you do there is said to be
"done by the numbers".
Trouble began after boot camp, when orders were NOT so clear any more,
and I was expected to show initiative. I won't go into details, but
suffices to say that in order to *prosper* in the military (as opposed
to just survive basic training), one must look for opportunities and
seize them -- while at the same time putting up with what can be very
boring work. I was not good at either.
> In fear of stepping on toes, may I ask what your basic life philosophy is?
I don't have one. Seriously. I just drift along, doing whatever I
enjoy doing and/or whatever I do well.
Qman
<corbe...@juno.com> wrote in message
news:0dd60415-2835-4a39...@5g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
>> In fear of stepping on toes, may I ask what your basic life philosophy
>> is?
>
> I don't have one. Seriously. I just drift along, doing whatever I
> enjoy doing and/or whatever I do well.
I was particularly interested in whether or not you were
religiously/spiritually inclinded.
Bob Badour
>>In fear of stepping on toes, may I ask what your basic life philosophy is?
>
> I don't have one. Seriously. I just drift along, doing whatever I
> enjoy doing and/or whatever I do well.
Laissez-faire hedonism?
corbe...@juno.com
Inasmuch as it can be combined with family responsibilities
Bob Badour
corbe...@juno.com
> corbell5...@juno.com wrote:
> > On Aug 13, 10:06 pm, Bob Badour <bbad...@pei.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
> >>corbell5...@juno.com wrote:
>
> >>>>In fear of stepping on toes, may I ask what your basic life philosophy is?
>
> >>>I don't have one. Seriously. I just drift along, doing whatever I
> >>>enjoy doing and/or whatever I do well.
>
> >>Laissez-faire hedonism?
>
> > Inasmuch as it can be combined with family responsibilities
>
> Laissez-faire tribal hedonism?
Not a bad description, actually. I like it!
Bob Badour
Dolphinius
> Qman wrote:
> > "Zeke Zebedee" <t...@forbed.com> wrote in message
No, Digby is not a troll (in my opinion). I believe he is autistic and
is sometimes under the influence of alcohol when he posts. He has
posted here on and off for a number of years, and fundamentally I
believe he has many of the same problems that many of us have, and has
perhaps not had the same opportunities as some of us have had to
address them.
Catriona R
I would say it depends upon how you define a troll. I'd agree that he
appears autistic, however his only posts appear to be either offtopic,
or offensive/attacking other posters. Perhaps I've missed some genuine
on-topic posts by him (since his initial appearance, years ago), but
nowadays he appears to behave like a troll - I don't think being
autistic automatically excludes someone from still being a troll, and
direct attacks upon posters, for no reason other than simply to attack
them, strikes me as trolling, no matter who does it.
Dolphinius
> I would say it depends upon how you define a troll. I'd agree that he
> appears autistic, however his only posts appear to be either offtopic,
> or offensive/attacking other posters. Perhaps I've missed some genuine
> on-topic posts by him (since his initial appearance, years ago), but
> nowadays he appears to behave like a troll - I don't think being
> autistic automatically excludes someone from still being a troll, and
> direct attacks upon posters, for no reason other than simply to attack
> them, strikes me as trolling, no matter who does it.
Does engaging in trolling make one a troll?
A troll trolls because that is what trolls do. However, I think the
activity of trolling can also be born out of frustration from someone
who is not intrinsically a troll.
It may seem unfair that such frustration is taken out on innocent
people, but sometimes that is what it will be. If it is a problem then
by all means treat the troller as if they were a troll (ignoring /
killfiling recommended), but I would encourage not closing your mind
to who they are (or, if you do not know them. who they might be).
Arak
> It does seem like you are almost exact opposit of me. I was never in
> an institution, and adults around me in my youth were usually
> reliable... which made it so distressing when they were not.
That makes sense. I'm thinking I should be grateful for the lack of
reliable people in my life. I'd never be independent!
> It's not that I *wanted* to be dependent on someone else -- more like
> dependency was invisible to me. It was "just how things are".
That's how it is for a lot of people. Parents do everything for them
because of the "disability" and therefore do more harm than good, IMO.
When dependency is invisible and becomes "how it is", then
independence is just going to be that much harder.
And when
> I grew up and found that I had to rely on myself, two things happened
> repeatedly: Whenever someone took time to explain/show me how to do
> something, I would thereafter do it quite well on my own. Whenever I
> had to "teach myself" something, results were disastrous. I just do
> not learn things well on my own.
Not everyone is cut out for self-study, I find.
>
> Yet another point of you and me being opposite. When I was a child, if
> an adult I trusted (such as parent) told me I can't do something, I
> would accept it as truth and *stop trying*.
This is what I really have a problem with with the way autism is
handled. My parents were given the litany of things I'd never be able
to do by various doctors and professionals, but they never told me
until I was long since out on my own. By that time, I had already
developed my attitude that "no one tells me what I can and cannot
do... except for me!".
The more people get labeled and told what they are incapable of doing,
the more people tend to believe it and make it their destiny.
> (Not that my parents ever
> did -- they quickly learned that motivating me through reverse
> psychology is a BAD IDEA.) Since I've been old enough to recognize
> reverse psychology when I see it, I ignore it completely -- it neither
> motivates nor demotivates me.
Actually, reverse psychology doesn't work on me either. I can tell by
the emotions that people put out as well as their tone of voice and
body language if they are using reverse psychology or if they really
believe I can't do something. People using reverse psychology get the
reverse response: I tell them they've failed and that it doesn't work
on me. It's deceptive and I won't tolerate it.
If people really doubt me, then I do what I can to prove them wrong
because I am just that type of person. I understand this behaviour of
others more because it is a genuine doubt that they are projecting at
me... I just refuse to accept their doubt until I either prove or
disprove it myself.
> I've heard of some Aspies doing something like that ("What would Xena
> do?"), but this never occurred to me either. "What would <x> do?" is
> essentially unanswerable question to me, whether <x> is a real person,
> a literary character, or someone from my own imagination. Even today I
> still have terrible grasp on other people's motivations and reactions.
> In everyday interactions I just count on people acting as I had seen
> them act. Most of the time it suffices.
I've learned through my obsession with psychology that people are not
always thinking the same way they act. Many will say something nice
while thinking something hurtful, or do something that they don't
really enjoy yet appear to enjoy it. (Cognitive dissonance at work
perhaps?)
This has been a very interesting discussion! I can now see a huge
difference between myself and a lot of other people on the spectrum
that I meet and I often wonder if that is an nature or nurture thing?
Is it they way we are brought up that motivates us (i.e.: unreliable
people made me more independent) or is it just the way we are
naturally? (i.e.: Have I just always been strong-willed?)
Arak /|\
Bob Badour
> On 15 Aug, 22:14, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>I would say it depends upon how you define a troll. I'd agree that he
>>appears autistic, however his only posts appear to be either offtopic,
>>or offensive/attacking other posters. Perhaps I've missed some genuine
>>on-topic posts by him (since his initial appearance, years ago), but
>>nowadays he appears to behave like a troll - I don't think being
>>autistic automatically excludes someone from still being a troll, and
>>direct attacks upon posters, for no reason other than simply to attack
>>them, strikes me as trolling, no matter who does it.
>
> Does engaging in trolling make one a troll?
Yes. Does delivering mail make one a postal carrier?
> A troll trolls because that is what trolls do. However, I think the
> activity of trolling can also be born out of frustration from someone
> who is not intrinsically a troll.
I cannot read minds and I cannot see the intrinsic essential nature of a
soul -- if souls even exist. I can, however, see trollish behavior.
Dolphinius
> Dolphinius wrote:
> > On 15 Aug, 22:14, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >>I would say it depends upon how you define a troll. I'd agree that he
> >>appears autistic, however his only posts appear to be either offtopic,
> >>or offensive/attacking other posters. Perhaps I've missed some genuine
> >>on-topic posts by him (since his initial appearance, years ago), but
> >>nowadays he appears to behave like a troll - I don't think being
> >>autistic automatically excludes someone from still being a troll, and
> >>direct attacks upon posters, for no reason other than simply to attack
> >>them, strikes me as trolling, no matter who does it.
>
> > Does engaging in trolling make one a troll?
>
> Yes. Does delivering mail make one a postal carrier?
I don't think so. Suppose I see a letter lying on the ground in the
street. It is addressed to a house nearby. I post it through the
letterbox. I think I am just being a good neighbour.
> > A troll trolls because that is what trolls do. However, I think the
> > activity of trolling can also be born out of frustration from someone
> > who is not intrinsically a troll.
>
> I cannot read minds and I cannot see the intrinsic essential nature of a
> soul -- if souls even exist. I can, however, see trollish behavior.
Yes, so it is probably down to information. Digby has been posting to
the group occasionally for a long time. I remember some of his earlier
posts. Of course, it is possible that I have misjudged, but I can see
why I might have different perspectives to others.
I do not claim definitely to be right, but I think it is worth
expressing my view as a counterbalance to other views to alert others
to the possibility that there is more to it than just what they can
see in front of them.
Catriona R
>On 15 Aug, 22:14, Catriona R <catrionarNOS...@totalise.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> I would say it depends upon how you define a troll. I'd agree that he
>> appears autistic, however his only posts appear to be either offtopic,
>> or offensive/attacking other posters. Perhaps I've missed some genuine
>> on-topic posts by him (since his initial appearance, years ago), but
>> nowadays he appears to behave like a troll - I don't think being
>> autistic automatically excludes someone from still being a troll, and
>> direct attacks upon posters, for no reason other than simply to attack
>> them, strikes me as trolling, no matter who does it.
>
>Does engaging in trolling make one a troll?
If that is the extent of their interaction within the group, I would
say, yes. A regular contributor who gets frustrated and occasionally
acts in an offensive manner, but the majority of the time makes
genuine contributions, is not a troll, certainly, but when they only
appear to post to attack others, that seems the essence of a troll, in
my mind.
>A troll trolls because that is what trolls do. However, I think the
>activity of trolling can also be born out of frustration from someone
>who is not intrinsically a troll.
>
>It may seem unfair that such frustration is taken out on innocent
>people, but sometimes that is what it will be. If it is a problem then
>by all means treat the troller as if they were a troll (ignoring /
>killfiling recommended), but I would encourage not closing your mind
>to who they are (or, if you do not know them. who they might be).
I'd agree, IF they show signs of being anything other than a troll.
But if their sole interactions over a period of time are trolling,
then it seems pointless to think of them as anything else. Maybe it's
just me though!