Google Groups no longer supports new Usenet posts or subscriptions. Historical content remains viewable.
Dismiss

autistic people - lack of interest in sex or gay?

28 views
Skip to first unread message

HGJ

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 3:05:46 AM11/29/06
to
"The Brian" <br...@gobot.com> wrote in message
news:<1145200609.4...@t31g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>...
> First of all, I suspect that male aspies masturbate just as much as
> anyone else does. So we're not talking about a lack of interest as
> much as we're talking about a lack of involvement.
> I'm sure that there are many undiagnosed Aspies who question their
> sexual orientation if they lack the same intense drive to score with
> women as other guys do. I'm sure the relatives of an undiagnosed aspie
> might wonder if he's a closet case. I know mine have. Nobody's come
> right out and said anything, but I've gotten drifts over the years.
> With the NT, the drive to be with someone else sexually is so dominant,
> the idea of someone who just simply really isn't all that interested
> and or doesn't really get it, is inconceivable.
>
> The issue with most aspies isn't sexual orientation itself in my
> opinion. I'm sure homosexual aspies have just as much difficulty with
> the aspect of dating, scoring, having a significant other, etc. a
> heterosexual aspies do.
> But the fact that heterosexual aspies do tend to be lacking in this
> area, the NT's will automatically suspect latent homosexuality. None
> of this of course exactly builds machismo in the aspie.

The following is something Hans Asperger wrote about autistics and
sexuality back in the 1940s:

Die ,,Autistischen Psychopathen" im Kindesalter, pages 123-124.

http://www.neurodiversity.com/library_asperger_1944.html

"Wir beginnen mit der Sexualität. Da ist das Bild nicht einheitlich.
Manche Fälle sind während der ganzen Kindheit, aber auch über die
Pubertät hinaus sexuell kühl und uninteressiert, triebschwach - und
bringen es auch im weiteren Leben zu keiner gesunden, kräftigen
Sexualität. Bei der größeren Zahl der Fälle jedoch finden sich
frühzeitig sexuelle Auffälligkeiten. In sehr vielen Fällen zeigen
sich diese in Form einer früh auftretenden, intensiv ausgeübten,
hartnäckig festgehaltenen, allen Behandlungsversuchen trotzenden
Masturbation. Oft fehlt weitgehend das Scham- und Schuldgefühl, das
diese Handlungen sonst begleitet; die Kinder frönen ihrer
Ledidenschaft unter Umständen in exhibitionisitischer Weise, mit aller
Hartnäckigkeit und Unbeeinflußbarkeit der Autistischen Psychopathen.
Man erfährt auch von homosexuellen Akten bei relativ jungen Kindern
(s. Fall 2!)."

Translation:

"We begin with sexuality. The picture is not uniform there. Some cases
are sexually cool and uninterested, weak in their drive, throughout
their childhood but also beyond puberty - and do not achieve any
healthy, strong sexuality later in life either. In the larger number of
cases, however, there are early occurrences of sexual peculiarities. In
very many cases these manifest themselves in the form of an early
occurring, intensely practised, stubbornly maintained masturbation,
which defies all attempts at treatment. There is often an extensive
lack of the feeling of shame and guilt which normally accompanies these
acts; the children may indulge in their passion in an exhibitionistic
way, with all the stubbornness and unimpressionability of the Autistic
Psychopaths. You also find out about homosexual acts among relatively
young children (see case 2!)."

Terry Jones

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 3:58:39 AM11/29/06
to
On 29 Nov 2006 00:05:46 -0800, "HGJ" <svch...@yahoo.se> wrote:

>> The issue with most aspies isn't sexual orientation itself in my
>> opinion. I'm sure homosexual aspies have just as much difficulty with
>> the aspect of dating, scoring, having a significant other, etc. a
>> heterosexual aspies do.
>> But the fact that heterosexual aspies do tend to be lacking in this
>> area, the NT's will automatically suspect latent homosexuality. None
>> of this of course exactly builds machismo in the aspie.
>
>The following is something Hans Asperger wrote about autistics and
>sexuality back in the 1940s:
>
>Die ,,Autistischen Psychopathen" im Kindesalter, pages 123-124.
>

>Translation:
>
>"We begin with sexuality. The picture is not uniform there. Some cases
>are sexually cool and uninterested, weak in their drive, throughout
>their childhood but also beyond puberty - and do not achieve any
>healthy, strong sexuality later in life either. In the larger number of
>cases, however, there are early occurrences of sexual peculiarities.

A while back (2 - 3 years?) neral did a series of surveys here, and
one of them related to this question - Of course it's not
statistically valid, since those who post at a.s.a don't represent the
full spectrum (and those who respond to surveys is a further "cut" of
this) - Anyway FWIR atypical sexualities were more common than is
usually suggested for the general population - not only gay/bi but a
significant proportion of asexuality (that is lacking any interest /
"drive" in this area, not simply having not acted on their drives as a
result of lack of social skills).

>In
>very many cases these manifest themselves in the form of an early
>occurring, intensely practised, stubbornly maintained masturbation,
>which defies all attempts at treatment. There is often an extensive
>lack of the feeling of shame and guilt which normally accompanies these
>acts; the children may indulge in their passion in an exhibitionistic
>way, with all the stubbornness and unimpressionability of the Autistic
>Psychopaths. You also find out about homosexual acts among relatively
>young children (see case 2!)."

This of course represents a hangover from a "Victorian" (and dishonest
even then) view - That masturbation was pathological and needed to be
"treated", and that not only shouldn't young people not have any
interest in sex, but that no "healthy" young person actually does so.

I think the use of "children" may be questionable, since IIRC most of
his patients (as far as AS / autism was concerned) were teenagers.
(The "see case 2!" seems particularly suspicious, suggesting that he
may have only had *one* example of this at a relatively young age).

I can see (especially younger) autistics having problems in
understanding the social "rules" relating to this (as with many
*other* areas).

--

Terry

The Autist formerly known as

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 5:36:23 AM11/29/06
to
Cultural artefacts intruding into reserch, victorian attitudes to
masturbation prevailing into Dr Asperger's cognition and cultural
consciousness,


--
şT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"


"HGJ" <svch...@yahoo.se> wrote in message
news:1164787546....@16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com...


The Autist formerly known as

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 5:39:23 AM11/29/06
to
In reading any "period" reserch one has to be aware of the cultural
embedding of the supposedly "objective" observer. Goes for Durkeheim, goes
for Asperger and Kanner too.

One has to be able to read the intertextuality of the influences that bear
upon there writings.


--
şT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"

"Terry Jones" <terry...@beeb.net> wrote in message
news:7fgqm29r4ha7sr6ho...@4ax.com...

The Autist formerly known as

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 5:43:08 AM11/29/06
to
And of course Asperger was writing pre Kinsey. People distort there
observations of the world to suit there preconsceptions anyway and become
selective in chosing only what validates there "folk" hypothesis, not what
tends to invalidate it. Straw polls on ASA are not what I would regard as
reliable as one needs comparison with other subject groups who have not been
influenced by the culture of ASA even.


--
şT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"


"Terry Jones" <terry...@beeb.net> wrote in message
news:7fgqm29r4ha7sr6ho...@4ax.com...

> On 29 Nov 2006 00:05:46 -0800, "HGJ" <svch...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>

> Terry


HGJ

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 6:41:44 AM11/29/06
to
Terry Jones skrev:

> On 29 Nov 2006 00:05:46 -0800, "HGJ" <svch...@yahoo.se> wrote:
> >Die ,,Autistischen Psychopathen" im Kindesalter, pages 123-124.
> >
> >Translation:
> >
> >"We begin with sexuality. The picture is not uniform there. Some cases
> >are sexually cool and uninterested, weak in their drive, throughout
> >their childhood but also beyond puberty - and do not achieve any
> >healthy, strong sexuality later in life either. In the larger number of
> >cases, however, there are early occurrences of sexual peculiarities.
>
> A while back (2 - 3 years?) neral did a series of surveys here, and
> one of them related to this question - Of course it's not
> statistically valid, since those who post at a.s.a don't represent the
> full spectrum (and those who respond to surveys is a further "cut" of
> this) - Anyway FWIR atypical sexualities were more common than is
> usually suggested for the general population - not only gay/bi but a
> significant proportion of asexuality (that is lacking any interest /
> "drive" in this area, not simply having not acted on their drives as a
> result of lack of social skills).

Here is that survey:

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.support.autism/browse_frm/thread/282d1f88570308e6
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/alt.support.autism/msg/2db4b79aad5eb023

> >In
> >very many cases these manifest themselves in the form of an early
> >occurring, intensely practised, stubbornly maintained masturbation,
> >which defies all attempts at treatment. There is often an extensive
> >lack of the feeling of shame and guilt which normally accompanies these
> >acts; the children may indulge in their passion in an exhibitionistic
> >way, with all the stubbornness and unimpressionability of the Autistic
> >Psychopaths. You also find out about homosexual acts among relatively
> >young children (see case 2!)."
>
> This of course represents a hangover from a "Victorian" (and dishonest
> even then) view - That masturbation was pathological and needed to be
> "treated", and that not only shouldn't young people not have any
> interest in sex,

One negation too many?

> but that no "healthy" young person actually does so.
>
> I think the use of "children" may be questionable, since IIRC most of
> his patients (as far as AS / autism was concerned) were teenagers.

The four patients described in detail in this paper were 6, 8½, 7½
and 17 years old, respectively. Asperger claims that more than 200 more
or less autistic "children" ("Kinder") have been observed at his clinic
during a period of ten years. I'm not sure about their age
distribution.

> (The "see case 2!" seems particularly suspicious, suggesting that he
> may have only had *one* example of this at a relatively young age).

That's a reference to the 8½-year-old (a boy, like all the other
patients), see page 97:

"In etwas unheimlicher Weise zeigt sich eine eigenwillige,
unbekümmerte Aktivität in argen sexuellen Spielereien mit anderen
Knaben; es soll dabei zu richtigen homosexuellen Akten, Coitusversuchen
gekommen sein!"

Translation:

"In a somewhat gruesome way, an obstinate, unconcerned activity
displays itself in mean sexual games with other boys; this has
supposedly led as far as to real homosexual acts, attempted
intercourses!"

neral

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 1:27:35 PM11/29/06
to

I've found these results back on my hard drive and from the autistics
that answered said, 16 that they are heterosexual, 3 bisexual, 4 said to
be gay, 3 asexual and two with something else. I agree that doesn't mean
much, a questionnaire that was answered by 25 autistics.

I'm heterosexual by preference and for the greater part asexual in
practice and when it comes to mannerisms and preferences that doesn't
include sex I tend to have more things in common with gay people than
with typical heterosexual people, include there my inability to make
social contacts, a normal relationship is something that lies not
exactly in my reach :-)


--
neral

Gareeth

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 1:52:48 PM11/29/06
to
Terry Jones wrote:
> On 29 Nov 2006 00:05:46 -0800, "HGJ" <svch...@yahoo.se> wrote:
>
>>>> A while back (2 - 3 years?) neral did a series of surveys here, and
> one of them related to this question - Of course it's not
> statistically valid, since those who post at a.s.a don't represent the
> full spectrum (and those who respond to surveys is a further "cut" of
> this) - Anyway FWIR atypical sexualities were more common than is
> usually suggested for the general population - not only gay/bi but a
> significant proportion of asexuality (that is lacking any interest /
> "drive" in this area, not simply having not acted on their drives as a
> result of lack of social skills).
>
Their have been statistically valid studies that show the same thing. What
researchers don't agree on is why.

Gareeth


HGJ

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 5:54:23 PM11/29/06
to
neral skrev:

> I'm heterosexual by preference and for the greater part asexual in
> practice and when it comes to mannerisms and preferences that doesn't
> include sex I tend to have more things in common with gay people than
> with typical heterosexual people, include there my inability to make
> social contacts, a normal relationship is something that lies not
> exactly in my reach :-)

You're saying that inability to make social contacts is more common in
gay people?

Terry Jones

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 7:58:35 PM11/29/06
to

I think that he means "include" in the sense of "add to" - IOW the two
things combined - different behaviour and preferences *plus* the
social skills problems.

--

Terry

neral

unread,
Nov 29, 2006, 8:39:02 PM11/29/06
to

Yes, that is what I meant to say.

--
neral

0 new messages