Question about being alone in childhood
Aquarian Monkey
camp, I'd stay behind and watch her without her knowledge. Almost
always, she went to a part of the playground where no one was and play
by herself. Part of me wanted to cry. I remember feeling excluded
sometimes as a kid and it really hurt. But then as I watched her, she
*looked* happy enough to be playing on her own so I just decided that
that was one of those NT norms that doesn't apply to her.
I have been reading John Elder Robison's book "look me in the eye." .
In it, he says that one of his concerns for autistic kids is that
people assert that they do not *want* social contact. He feels that in
his case, this was far from the truth. He played alone only because he
didn't know how to play with the other kids, not because he didn't
have a desire. He *did* have the desire, just not the skill.
So now I feel all sad when I hear from her teachers that unless she is
directed to play with others, she tends to play alone. What if it's
because she doesn't know *how* to play with them and inside she feels
sad and chooses to play alone only because it is easier, not because
it's what she really wants? Also, I think her peers are starting to
understand there is something different about her. She seems to be
well-liked, but...for example, I one time overheard two of her
classmates talking. One said "Why is D always so quiet?" The other one
said "I don't know. Probably because she can't talk right." I know
when she does play with other kids it is more likely to be the boys
because their play is more active.
So, what I am asking of those of you who are willing to share, please
share with me your memories of childhood, particularly if you were a
kid who didn't often play with others. Was it because you didn't care
to? Or because you didnt' know how to? Any words of wisdom I can use
for my dd? She's 4, btw, and attends a typical preschool with 15 hours
of 1:1 with a woman who is a special ed teacher trained in ABA. THe
rest of the hours she is on her own and does well. She then goes to a
typical afterschool program where she either draws, naps or plays by
herself. She appears happy when I pick her up.
Thanks for any stories or insight you are willing to share.
astri
> So, what I am asking of those of you who are willing to share, please
> share with me your memories of childhood, particularly if you were a
> kid who didn't often play with others. Was it because you didn't care
> to? Or because you didnt' know how to? Any words of wisdom I can use
> for my dd? She's 4, btw, and attends a typical preschool with 15
> hours of 1:1 with a woman who is a special ed teacher trained in ABA.
> THe rest of the hours she is on her own and does well. She then goes
> to a typical afterschool program where she either draws, naps or
> plays by herself. She appears happy when I pick her up.
>
> Thanks for any stories or insight you are willing to share.
at 4, i was in kindergarten in a private school that ran pre-k through
grade 1. i believe that was mostly because both parents worked and they
needed a full day program for me and that wasn't available for
preschool.
on the playground, there was a huge boat (at least it seemed huge) and
kids would climb on it and through it and play pirates or something. i
wanted to be on the boat. it frequently seemed like i wasn't allowed,
but i have no clue why or by whom. when i was on the boat, kids played
pirates or whatever around me but i had no clue what to do. so i was
just there. getting to be on the boat felt like enough.
there was also a spinny ride thing: a disc on a central post, bars
on the outside at the front edge of the pie-shaped colored positions.
kids would grab a bar and runrunrun and then jump onto the disc to get
a spinny ride. there was room for 6 to 8 kids. that was cool. the rules
were easy (just grab and open bar and run) and you got to spin and get
dizzy.
liked to color, but when it was time to color, there were always the
same 2 girls who sat at the table and grabbed the crayon can. they
allowed me to use only black and brown. on very rare occasions, they
gave me red. i drew a lot of bookcases and cats and witches -- nothing
else made sense to draw with black and brown. this went on for a long
time--definitely multiple coloring sessions. i didn't know i could
complain about it, so i didn't. the teacher called them from the table
one day and then they didn't sit with me any more.
when i got older in elementary school, i wanted to join the big games
that lots of kids were playing. when i tried to play dodge ball, i was
always one of the first ones out. when i tried to play the chase and
capture game (kids would run around and capture the kids on the other
team and bring them to an area and then kids on their team would rescue
them), if someone bothered to capture me, no one bothered to rescue me.
when i was just wandering around, kids i didn't know would call me mean
names. none of the adults noticed. it just kept on until we all went to
a bigger school in 7th grade and eventually it stopped some time in 7th
grade. maybe i wasn't in classes with the kids that were calling the
names and didn't run into them any longer.
it was much better when i could have a job during recess. for a couple
of years, i got to sell ice cream for the cafeteria lady. i liked that.
in 6th grade, the girls in the class were going to stage a protest and
all wear pants one particular day (school rules said girls must wear
skirts). i overheard about it and decided to wear pants too. they
chickened out and all the girls called each other to cancel the
protest. no one called me, so i wore pants. only one other girl wore
pants because she hadn't been home and didn't get her phone call.
i never knew how to make friends, or that i could choose friends. when
i had friends, it was because someone decided to choose me. i never
knew how that worked and why they chose me and why they eventually
unchose me. i found out in 6th grade that the girl who i thought was my
best friend from 2nd grade through 6th grade had never invited me to
her birthday party (she had a pool party at her house and invited
practically the entire class every year). she invited me in 6th grade.
i went. there were a lot of kids running around doing a lot of things.
it was kind of like recess time at school except kids were in bathing
suits. it was confusing but it felt good to be included.
the next year in 7th grade, she unchose me as a friend. she was always
busy after school. there was never room at the lunch table for me to
sit. this went on throughout the first semester, and i realized later
that these were hints, but i just didn't get it. there was going to be
a big overnight class trip in the spring and at some point, kids were
all choosing who they would room with. i figured i would room with her,
of course. it was getting kind of late, so i eventually said something
to her about the trip. it was in the lunch room, when there hadn't been
room at the table for me again. she said something about not rooming
with me and then said something on the order of: "don't you get it? i'm
not your friend any more." and she went on the list all the things i
should have noticed to show that she wasn't my friend. in the
lunchroom. in front of a table of kids watching. even i knew that was a
horrible thing.
i never did go on that class trip. eventually, someone else invited me
to be her friend. until she uninvited me.
-- astri
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Stephen Wilson
"Aquarian Monkey" <aquaria...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e7ae0e27-16d9-4013...@g23g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
>
> Thanks for any stories or insight you are willing to share.
Wish I had some words of wisdom or some insight. I managed to make 3 or 4
friends at school. But never for long - either I or they moved. Between the
ages of 5 and 16 I attended 7 different schools. I went to school, did the
lessons, went home and found ways to occupy myself. Can't say I was
particularly happy, but I survived.
Things got a little easier by the time I was 17, and I actually enjoyed my
last couple of years at university.
astri
> Things got a little easier by the time I was 17, and I actually
> enjoyed my last couple of years at university.
university was probably the best time
i joined a service organization and got to do things and could use
robert's rules for meetings. since i liked and knew those rules, i got
to be sergeant at arms.
and i lived in the dorm, so i didn't have to figure out who to have
contact with when i wanted contact. they were there. i actually used
the same strategy i used in elementary school to visit teachers. in
elementary school after hours i'd systematically work down the hall and
visit teachers in order until they kicked me out of the building. in
the dorm, i'd systematically work down the hall and stop at every open
door to say hi if they wanted to. i had a system.
Gareeth
> >
> Thanks for any stories or insight you are willing to share.
I didn't have too many problems with the whole alone thing in early
childhood. I liked to be alone a lot of the time but I was able to play with
kids at school and in the neighbourhood if I wanted to. There was a fair bit
of encouragement for me to choose that option. I remember when we moved into
a new house when I was 4 simply hopping on my tricycle and riding around the
neighbourhood and asking people if they wanted to be my friend and because 4
is a simple age the answers were all in the affirmative.
In kindergarten and the daycare I attended while my mother bowled I
preferred my own company. I did find the other kids a bit too unpredicatable
in those settings and that alarmed me. With time I found ways of making them
conform to my expectations. When I was 7 I basically managed to enroll my
whole grade in an elaborate role play I ran all the time so they would then
do as I expected and they enjoyed it for some reason. This was the same way
I tended to play with kids on the playground for the rest of elementary
school. I would think of eleborate games and plots and the kids would flock
to me. There are those would say this is just a variation of using the kids
like objects as I did with them as I pleased much as I would a toy but the
outcome anyway was I would to a casual obserber appear to be the most
popular kid on the playground.
It was only as I aged that I started to have increased social issues. The
other kids outgrew the things I had used to make them predictable and I
couldn't get the hang of just standing around and talking. Their interests
no longer interested me and my games were of no interest to them. To make
matters worse right when this started to happen we moved to another
province. In my original setting the kids I had gone to school with all
those years while hinting from time to time that I should grow up and so on
were still on the whole tolerant of me and included me. In the new place
there was no shared history. I was shunned and bullied from the beginning
and never really had much success again in the friendship department.
Most of my being together with other children from that point on was in
structured ways like sports, clubs and cadets. I joined pretty much
everything and that at least had me together with other kids even if they
were not excactly friends. With time some of the people from cadets became
people I would call friends just through sheer exposure and shared
experience. Getting lost on a mountain in -25C weather, or skiing biathalons
together or whatever will bond even the most socially unskilled a bit.
I think the first step for you would be trying to find out how your daughter
actually feels about it. She may not even want to be with other kids at this
point. If she is happy alone then it isn't a big deal. If she is actually
lonely that is another matter.
Gareeth
Aquarian Monkey
and correct me if I'm wrong, that being alone wasn't really a choice
so much as it just was the way things were in your eyes as a child.
Astri, I'm actually surprized how much some of my childhood mirrors
yours. I was rarely chosen to be on someone else's team, and even when
I was on someone's "team" rarely was I really a part of it in
elementary and middle school (probably from 2nd to 7th grades). The
boys in particular seemed to hate me and to this day, I have never
understood what I did that made them dislike me so much. I was
actually "in" the popular group of girls, but I wasn't "popular" and
oftentimes I'd be left out of their plans and only find out that
everyone else got together and did something after it was over.
Stephen, it sounds to me like being alone wasn't your preference, but
rather just the way things were.
On Nov 29, 3:44 pm, "Gareeth" <Gareethn...@hotmail.com> wrote:
<SNIP>
> I think the first step for you would be trying to find out how your daughter
> actually feels about it. She may not even want to be with other kids at this
> point. If she is happy alone then it isn't a big deal. If she is actually
> lonely that is another matter.
I've tried to ask her, but I'm not certain she really understands what
I'm asking her. She does look genuinely happy and content sometimes
when I see her playing alone, but other times, notsomuch. When they
first started telling me about how "to herself" she was at
afterschool, I asked her about it and she said "I like to play by
myself," but on the other hand, when I went to her school to throw a
birthday party for her with her classmates, when I walked in, she was
playing alone. I asked her about it, she said "no one wants to play
with me." But with her limited verbal skills, that might just be the
only answer she could think of. I would say that at least 75% of her
speech is subtle scripting and sometimes I think she lacks the ability
to truly express herself if she hasn't heard someone else say what she
wants to say.
If she is truly happy playing alone, I have no intention of forcing NT
norms on her. I don't care if kids her age are "supposed" to play with
others. As long as she can do it appropriately in structured times, I
don't care what she does in her free time (I do think that play skills
are precursors to more important social skills she'll need when she's
older, so I do want her to be able to demonstrate that she understands
the ground rules, etc).
But if she's by herself because she doesn't know how to join in, I
want to teach her...although now that I think of it...she does *know
how* to join in. She understands that you walk over, wait for someone
to look at you, and then say "May I play with you" or you approach
someone and say "Would you like to play with me?" I don't know...maybe
she is picking up that kids are seeing her as different...it's just
really hard when they are so young, especially with her communication
issues.
I just want her to be happy, you know?
Stephen Wilson
>First of all, thanks to those of you who have shared. It sounds to me,
>and correct me if I'm wrong, that being alone wasn't really a choice
>so much as it just was the way things were in your eyes as a child.
>
>Astri, I'm actually surprized how much some of my childhood mirrors
>yours. I was rarely chosen to be on someone else's team, and even when
>I was on someone's "team" rarely was I really a part of it in
>elementary and middle school (probably from 2nd to 7th grades). The
>boys in particular seemed to hate me and to this day, I have never
>understood what I did that made them dislike me so much. I was
>actually "in" the popular group of girls, but I wasn't "popular" and
>oftentimes I'd be left out of their plans and only find out that
>everyone else got together and did something after it was over.
Oh yeah, when it came to teams, I was always the last to be picked...
>Stephen, it sounds to me like being alone wasn't your preference, but
>rather just the way things were.
Somewhere inbetween. I got used to my own company. It was something I was
comfortable with. But there was always part of me that knew this wasn't
"normal". I didn't get invited to birthday parties (with 1 exception, when I
was 11) and I never had friends round on my birthdays. I grew to accept it,
but part of me also resented it.
Aquarian Monkey
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> Somewhere inbetween. I got used to my own company. It was something I was
> comfortable with. But there was always part of me that knew this wasn't
> "normal". I didn't get invited to birthday parties (with 1 exception, when I
> was 11) and I never had friends round on my birthdays. I grew to accept it,
> but part of me also resented it.
Did you resent it because you knew it wasn't "normal," or because you
really wished you had friends around? To me those are two totally
different issues.
See, I think if someone would have told me that it wasn't necessary to
be popular when I was a kid, my whole life would have been easier. I
just--for some reason--was under the impression that the only valid
route to happiness was popularity. For as naive as it sounds, I wish
someone would have just simply told me that it wasn't true. I'm sure I
would have still wanted to have friends, but maybe I would have chosen
different friends (at least some of them). I am/was artistic and smart
and never capitalized on either of those things in high school. I
figured out that being smarter than other people was not an effective
way to make/keep friends, and most of the artistic people weren't
popular. Befriending them was contrary to the plan I felt I needed to
follow. It never occured to me that perhaps it was my quest to be
popular that made me so unhappy. I think it didn't help that I also
went to a very small school, so there wasn't much room for a lot of
different social groups. You were basically either "in" or "nobody."
Or at least that's how I saw it.
Stephen Wilson
On Nov 29, 4:25 pm, "Stephen Wilson"
<stephen.wilson2004nos...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>>
>> Somewhere inbetween. I got used to my own company. It was something I was
>> comfortable with. But there was always part of me that knew this wasn't
>> "normal". I didn't get invited to birthday parties (with 1 exception,
>> when I
>> was 11) and I never had friends round on my birthdays. I grew to accept
>> it,
>> but part of me also resented it.
>
>Did you resent it because you knew it wasn't "normal," or because you
>really wished you had friends around? To me those are two totally
>different issues.
That's not an easy question to answer. It's the usual thing for people to
do - you compare yourself with your peers. I felt I was missing out on
something, and there were times I felt lonely. So although I could do what I
wanted, on my terms, I still felt I was missing out on something.
>See, I think if someone would have told me that it wasn't necessary to
>be popular when I was a kid, my whole life would have been easier. I
>just--for some reason--was under the impression that the only valid
>route to happiness was popularity. For as naive as it sounds, I wish
>someone would have just simply told me that it wasn't true.
I don't know that would have helped me. At the time, you could have given me
all the advice in the world, but I don't know if it would have made me
happier. I am now - not entirely, but much more relaxed than I was prior to
the age of about 20.
> I'm sure I
>would have still wanted to have friends, but maybe I would have chosen
>different friends (at least some of them). I am/was artistic and smart
>and never capitalized on either of those things in high school. I
>figured out that being smarter than other people was not an effective
>way to make/keep friends, and most of the artistic people weren't
>popular. Befriending them was contrary to the plan I felt I needed to
>follow. It never occured to me that perhaps it was my quest to be
>popular that made me so unhappy. I think it didn't help that I also
>went to a very small school, so there wasn't much room for a lot of
>different social groups. You were basically either "in" or "nobody."
>Or at least that's how I saw it.
Looking back on things, I have benefitted somewhat from my solitary
pastimes. I can deal with being on my own a lot better than many others, and
there are things I learned to do which still give me pleasure today. In
fact, some of them I even do with other people now - they've given me
sufficient passion to join groups and I've made friends through them.
But it's very different as an adult. I do things on my terms, and I only mix
with the people I want to mix with. I didn't have that choice at school.
Dolphinius
Throughout my whole life (both as a child and as an adult) I have
preferred to "play" alone. (As an adult I now rarely "play", but that
is true if you extend the definition to almost any leisure activity /
interest.)
I do not remember my time at nursery school, but I think my mother has
told me that I tended to play alone (this might have included reading
books: I learned to read at a young age very quickly).
I do remember how I thought when I was older (at primary and secondary
school). Provided I had something I wanted to do, I just wanted to do
it. I didn't consider any benefit to myself in involving others. I
wasn't particularly interested in what the other children wanted to
do, a lot of the time (a lot of which was physical e.g. running
around, ball games).
I don't *ever* (in my whole childhood) remember feeling sad that I
didn't have anyone to play with. However, I do remember many occasions
when I felt stressed or unhappy at the prospect of having to play with
others (e.g. my parents having invited friends and their children
round). So, if D looks OK it is quite possible she is very happy doing
things on her own.
Dolphinius
(Male, mid-thirties, UK, self-diagnosed AS)
Canth
Solitary play most of the time, particularly in primary school.
Reading occupied most of my time at high school. Somehow I became
part of the in group in my final year at high school. Otherwise I
spent a lot of time standing just outside a circle of older kids when
not off reading.
Almost never picked for games, not even last. Birthdays - didn't even
know people had parties until my final year.
Pre-school, my daughter dominated a couple of others & so apparently
played in a group. However, my observation was that she manipulated
the others just like dolls. We had her for a year in a group activity
during pre-school time, but she didn't become part of the group,
preferring to continue playing on equipment when the others were doing
story time, etc.
Now almost finished primary school, she is mostly solitary play. A
lot of her time now is spent reading or playing electronic games. She
is moderately good at team games, so gets picked in the middle, rather
than either end.
Being able to be part of a group is a big obsession.
AS! ds++:+++ a++ c+++ p++ t+ f-- S+ p+ e++ h++ r++ n++ i+ P+ m++ M
earthpots
In my case, I did want to play with others, but the problem is that I was
such a social misfit that my efforts would always backfire. I didn't know
how to fit in, and my attempts become objects of ridicule from my peers. I
was very vulnerable and easily hurt, so the subsequent teasing and bullying
would lead to twears and meltdowns.
I learned that it was better to not even bother trying, as I always wound up
getting hurt somehow. It was easier, and also painless, to just amuse
myself. Others just simply pushed me away, and made it clear I wasn't
wanted. I also related better to kids 2 or 3 years younger than me. I
actually got along better with younger kids, than same-age peers. I also did
better with playing with only 1 or 2 others, I felt overwhelmed when the
play group was larger.
I have no idea if any of this will help you with D. Has she ever been
subject to bullying or teasing from others? It didn't help that I had the
classic "Little Professor Syndrome", spoke with a sing-song voice, and used
big words and complex sentences most of my peers couldn't grasp. They saw me
as an oddity, thought I was weird, so they shunned me; and in some ways, to
insulate myself from the cruelty, I shunned them.
--
Carol
Contessa of Consternation
Known to leave foes discombobulated
Autistic Spectrum Code v.1.0
AS? d- s--:+ a+ c+ p+ t-- f S+ p@- e+ h- r- n+(-) i+ P m-() M
http://www32.brinkster.com/ascdecode/
"I have run rings around you logically". Monty Python
Email at clay_p...@nospam.com, removing the 'nospam' and replacing
with 'msn'.
Baba Yaga
alt.support.autism:
[...]
>So, what I am asking of those of you who are willing to share, please
>share with me your memories of childhood, particularly if you were a
>kid who didn't often play with others. Was it because you didn't care
>to? Or because you didnt' know how to? Any words of wisdom I can use
>for my dd? She's 4, btw, and attends a typical preschool with 15 hours
>of 1:1 with a woman who is a special ed teacher trained in ABA. THe
>rest of the hours she is on her own and does well. She then goes to a
>typical afterschool program where she either draws, naps or plays by
>herself. She appears happy when I pick her up.
I do think you'd pick it up if she were *unhappy.
Once one falls behind socially, one tends to fall behind more and
more, rather like missing a fundamental concept in maths. If she
would know how, but doesn't want, to play with others in the expected
ways, that's one thing: if she (also) doesn't know how, that could set
her up for trouble as her social drive develops.
I've no idea how one would know the difference.
>Thanks for any stories or insight you are willing to share.
Mmmm. I have both a high need for solitude and a high social drive.
(They're uncomfortable bed-mates.) A certain level of solitude is
oxygen, but too much is suffocation.
Come about adolescence, which is when the issue forced itself on me in
rather catastrophic ways, it became apparent even to me that I needed
people, and that people disliked me. I tended to be highly visible
(the more I tried to blend in with the institutional paintwork, the
more conspicuous I made myself) &, um, lowly popular.
One thing which may be relevant is that I've always tended to get on
better with people *not* of my own age. Rather older and, later on,
rather younger. (In the past 5ish years, I have acquired same-age
friends/ congenial acquaintances. I find it altogether surprising.) I
think that reflects the combination of having been very much behind my
age-group in a lot of respects, and very much ahead in others. I
really had little point of contact with the people I spent all day
with.
For a very long time, really as long as no-one forced dislike on me,
if I had one person I could call friend, I was socially content. That
much granted, I never noticed that I was on the edges, 'though in
retrospect I can see that it was so. & so long as I had books - which
I think have always been my prime source of company, right up until
the time I discovered Usenet -, solitude was fine, if it wasn't being
overtly left out. (In a lot of ways, easier. The energy people take
is extraordinary.)
& still my favoured form of 3-D social 'interaction' is something like
parallel play. Doing a task with or alongside someone, sharing
observations if it comes to it, but structured and with the
expectations clear and within my energetic compass. (A lot of my time
on IRC is along those lines, in fact; channel- sitting and exchanging
a few comments here or there, over the course of several hours. Much
more restful than gabbing.)
Thinking back to D.'s age, and thereabouts...
At 4, I met my first friend. As is fairly usual at that age, that was
probably made concrete because our mothers became friendly. (Birthday
party photos from 5 until 8 show K., her other friend, who became
accepted as mine, the son of one of my father's students.) & anyway,
I was socially oblivious. No real idea how I got on at school,
socially - except that it was the little Dutch boy who was the class
victim, not me -, but with K. in my class, I would have had my one
friend, & probably gained some social credit from her popularity.
However, when time came to form pairs for going to middle school,
round about the time I turned 8, I was odd child out. First
experience that I *remember of my best friend not thinking I was her
best friend, 'though I'm not sure I had the social awareness then to
see it as a rebuff. I remember that feeling from later on, and don't
associate it with the occasion.
I do remember press-ganging the girl who was too young to go to middle
school with the rest, so that I had a pair. No idea whether that was
fledgeling social awareness, or just that the rule said we had to be
in pairs, and therefore be in a pair I must.
Moved to Scotland. For the first several months, no school, went to
an ice-skating class on Saturday. *Didn't ever, that I recall,
interact with any of the children at the ice-skating class. Don't
recall missing having social contact. OTOH, I may just not have had
the concept for the feeling. Don't recall missing my brother (who was
despatched to a boarding school at the same time), either, and he must
have left a large hole.
Eventually got a school place, and was put up a year, into a class
where I think several children were down a year. It would probably
have been social doom for most children. I was oblivious until firmly
told to go away. (Apparently, the idea that I might play with people
from other classes was beyond me.) Hid behind one of the portacabins
at breaks, until I was discovered by a teacher on my own and in tears,
and provided with 'friends' (who, astonishingly, didn't act
resentfully towards me because of it). People I spent time with, and
I didn't make the distinction.
Moved again, went to another school, found another lonely child on the
edges. (Her mother had died, and I suppose unhappiness made her not
fun to be with. To my adult shame, I abandoned her as soon as my
classmates got accusomed to my presence.) & joined the cubs.
Cubs was ideal for me. Partly because Akela had a gift for bringing
out the best in children - and would never have allowed unhealthy
social dynamics -, but partly because of the inherent structure of the
thing. A six is a ready made social unit: there was lots of directed
activity together, but not too together. And there were clear
expectations and rewards for meeting them. I flourished like the
green bay tree, which is probably the only time I've flourished in any
offline social context. Don't recall ever interacting with any of the
other girls outside cubs. Don't recall ever minding that, or noticing
it. It's only in adulthood that I realise that, for other people,
'making friends' would have been part of the expected order of play.
Guides later on was much less orderly and much less enjoyable, more
edgy, in some undefined way (probably to do with the social to and
fro), even though I joined because my then 'best friend' (who
nonetheless never spoke to me at school, or when her school friends
were around - there's a pattern in all this) was a guide.
All matters social got quite a lot worse from about 10 up, when the
social jostling develops a nastier edge, such as slices through
oblivion. I did usually have one friend, or at least someone too
polite to tell me I wasn't welcome - I latched on to people -, &
tended to keep them a year or two; I think until they grew up a bit
and I didn't, or possibly until I wore out their politeness.
Baba Yaga
--
External things are no more like the perceptions they give rise to,
than wine is similar to intoxication, or opium to the delirium which
it produces.
- John Playfair
Baba Yaga
>i never knew how to make friends, or that i could choose friends. when
>i had friends, it was because someone decided to choose me. i never
>knew how that worked and why they chose me and why they eventually
>unchose me.
no.
nor how not to be chosen by people one doesn't want to be chosen by.
(being friend-like takes *energy*.)
[...]
>she said something about not rooming
>with me and then said something on the order of: "don't you get it? i'm
>not your friend any more." and she went on the list all the things i
>should have noticed to show that she wasn't my friend. in the
>lunchroom. in front of a table of kids watching. even i knew that was a
>horrible thing.
8-(
cruel.
>i never did go on that class trip. eventually, someone else invited me
>to be her friend. until she uninvited me.
as they do.
Baba Yaga
alt.support.autism:
[...]
>You were basically either "in" or "nobody."
>Or at least that's how I saw it.
Exactly opposite to my experience.
It was only in adulthood that I began to perceive that there are
'popular people', and that 'popularity' is a desired thing. I knew
*unpopularity was bad, but popularity was a social concept beyond my
grasp.
Baba Yaga
Baba Yaga
[...]
>In my case, I did want to play with others, but the problem is that I was
>such a social misfit that my efforts would always backfire. I didn't know
>how to fit in, and my attempts become objects of ridicule from my peers. I
>was very vulnerable and easily hurt, so the subsequent teasing and bullying
>would lead to twears and meltdowns.
.... which lead to ridicule and ostracism....
astri
> Most of my being together with other children from that point on was
> in structured ways like sports, clubs and cadets. I joined pretty
> much everything and that at least had me together with other kids
> even if they were not excactly friends. With time some of the people
> from cadets became people I would call friends just through sheer
> exposure and shared experience. Getting lost on a mountain in -25C
> weather, or skiing biathalons together or whatever will bond even the
> most socially unskilled a bit.
i did a lot of joining things, too -- in high school, especially. kept
busy and around people. even tried starting one club: a science fiction
club. it didn't work out because i really was one of the only kids in
the school who read science fiction (three kids came to the first
meeting, one from a different school), and because once i got the
meeting set up, i had no clue what to do with the club and no one else
stepped up to help organize.
Aquarian Monkey
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dolphinius,
May I ask if you ever felt excluded? Buillied or teased?
I'm not trying to be intrusive...just trying to understand from as
many angles as I can.
Aquarian Monkey
<SNIP>
> We had her for a year in a group activity
> during pre-school time, but she didn't become part of the group,
> preferring to continue playing on equipment when the others were doing
> story time, etc.
I think this is what D would be like in a similar setting. I think
part of her issue may be linked to the kind of "play" she enjoys. She
likes to chase other kids, so if anyone is willing to run from her for
hours on end, she will play with them forever. Also, because of her
brother's perseveration with Pokemon and Bakugan, she likes to play
their made-up version of a game related to those characters. It
involves a mish mash of jumping around, tae kwon do moves, and calling
out various "moves" that the different characters do, etc. in some
sort of mimed "battle." Most 4 year olds are not that familiar with
Pokemon, and I don't think any of the girls in her class have any idea
what she's talking about. But she loves to play that game.
<SNIP>
Aquarian Monkey
>
> In my case, I did want to play with others, but the problem is that I was
> such a social misfit that my efforts would always backfire. I didn't know
> how to fit in, and my attempts become objects of ridicule from my peers. I
> was very vulnerable and easily hurt, so the subsequent teasing and bullying
> would lead to twears and meltdowns.
Carol, your post reminds me of my friend's daughter. I feel so bad for
this girl that I could cry. She is just 6, and she wants so badly to
have friends, but she does things that lead her to be a target for
bullies and avoided by everyone else. And of course the avoidance
makes her "try" even harder, and then if anyone shows interest in her,
she becomes obsessed and overbearing, which leaves the kid running.
It's really quite sad.
>
> I learned that it was better to not even bother trying, as I always wound up
> getting hurt somehow. It was easier, and also painless, to just amuse
> myself. Others just simply pushed me away, and made it clear I wasn't
> wanted. I also related better to kids 2 or 3 years younger than me. I
> actually got along better with younger kids, than same-age peers. I also did
> better with playing with only 1 or 2 others, I felt overwhelmed when the
> play group was larger.
>
> I have no idea if any of this will help you with D. Has she ever been
> subject to bullying or teasing from others?
Not to my knowledge. I think that having her 1:1 with her kind of
discourages that, plus she is youngest in her class and really cute,
so a lot of the kids are kind of protective of her right now. She is
also in a very small school, so nothing goes unnoticed and because it
is unusual to have a kid with autism in a Catholic school, all the
teachers from all the grades and all the assistants know her, so she
is really well protected. But even without all of the protection, I
don't think she'd be bullied at this point. She is really sweet and
doesn't stick out very much in a negative way.
>It didn't help that I had the
> classic "Little Professor Syndrome", spoke with a sing-song voice, and used
> big words and complex sentences most of my peers couldn't grasp. They saw me
> as an oddity, thought I was weird, so they shunned me; and in some ways, to
> insulate myself from the cruelty, I shunned them.
>
D has delayed language skills. Her articulation is not very good and
she engages in a lot of repetitive speech. She isn't very good at 2-
way conversations so she mostly drops to 2-3 word responses if anyone
tries to talk to her. But because she is smaller than a lot of the
kids and they are so young, I don't think anyone has really picked up
on it so much yet, except to very matter of factly state "she can't
talk right." Perhaps they think she is younger than they are. Even her
stimming is mainly hopping and flapping and I don't think anyone has
picked up on it, so I don't think she's had issues, even with that. It
is one concern I have, though...right now all of her "oddities" tend
to be cute. They are cute on a 3-4 year old. They will not be so
"cute" when she is 7 or 8.
Aquarian Monkey
>
> I do think you'd pick it up if she were *unhappy.
I hope so, but I'm worried by that point, it might be too late, as you
describe next...
>
> Once one falls behind socially, one tends to fall behind more and
> more, rather like missing a fundamental concept in maths.
That is what happened with her brother. He was only a little behind in
pre-kindergarten. Then, even though he matured somewhat between pre-k
and kindergarten, his peers had matured more, so he was even further
behind. By second grade, it was causing issues for him. It was
particularly bad because his "best friend" who, while not on the
spectrum, appears to be somewhat quirky and immature too, transferred
to a different school for the year. Luckily with R, putting him on
meds to help with his ADHD actually helped with his social skills a
bit. Part of his problem before was his intrusiveness/impulsiveness.
The meds helped that a lot, so now we only have to deal with some of
the underlying deficits. but in truth, they seem more manageable and
at least now he is not chasing kids away from himself.
> If she
> would know how, but doesn't want, to play with others in the expected
> ways, that's one thing:
I think that's true to some extent. She knows *how* to have a tea
party or play with baby dolls. She just doesn't particularly like it.
She also doesn't like to have to follow the "rules," and of course,
when you are playing with others, you kind of have to follow the rules
or else disagreements happen. When she plays alone, she can follow
whatever rules she wants, and no one protests.
>if she (also) doesn't know how, that could set
> her up for trouble as her social drive develops.
Once she loses her 1:1 at school, which I think she may because she is
doing so well, I think she is at great risk for this to happen. She
doesn't learn like other kids do. So when the rules of social
interactions change as she gets older, she isn't going to be able to
figure it out without someone being there to teach it to her in a more
concrete way. Both of my kids are like that. You need to walk them
through it step by step with explanations and footnotes. Then they are
find. But they aren't going to pick it up on their own. Even more so
with D than with R.
>
>I have both a high need for solitude and a high social drive.
> (They're uncomfortable bed-mates.) A certain level of solitude is
> oxygen, but too much is suffocation.
I am perhaps a bit like that. Luckily for me, my job provides for
both. I spend part of my time in a classroom (with grown-ups), part of
my time working in small groups, and part of my time working alone.
<SNIP>
> For a very long time, really as long as no-one forced dislike on me,
> if I had one person I could call friend, I was socially content.
I hope my kids will always have that.
> Thinking back to D.'s age, and thereabouts...
>
> At 4, I met my first friend. As is fairly usual at that age, that was
> probably made concrete because our mothers became friendly. (Birthday
> party photos from 5 until 8 show K., her other friend, who became
> accepted as mine, the son of one of my father's students.) & anyway,
> I was socially oblivious. No real idea how I got on at school,
> socially - except that it was the little Dutch boy who was the class
> victim, not me -, but with K. in my class, I would have had my one
> friend, & probably gained some social credit from her popularity.
D's "best friend" right now is a 6 year old girl who happens to be our
friend's daughter. She is good for D because she enjoys playing the
Pokemon game with her and also because she is somewhat more tolerant
of her "rule bending" and she is better able to understand, I think,
what D is trying to say than her agemates are.
>
> However, when time came to form pairs for going to middle school,
> round about the time I turned 8, I was odd child out. First
> experience that I *remember of my best friend not thinking I was her
> best friend, 'though I'm not sure I had the social awareness then to
> see it as a rebuff. I remember that feeling from later on, and don't
> associate it with the occasion.
>
> I do remember press-ganging the girl who was too young to go to middle
> school with the rest, so that I had a pair. No idea whether that was
> fledgeling social awareness, or just that the rule said we had to be
> in pairs, and therefore be in a pair I must.
>
> Moved to Scotland. For the first several months, no school, went to
> an ice-skating class on Saturday. *Didn't ever, that I recall,
> interact with any of the children at the ice-skating class. Don't
> recall missing having social contact. OTOH, I may just not have had
> the concept for the feeling. Don't recall missing my brother (who was
> despatched to a boarding school at the same time), either, and he must
> have left a large hole.
My kids are both a bit as you describe. For example the kids my son
goes to school with are different from the kids he goes to summer camp
with. He is never sad at the end of school, nor at the end of summer
camp, and he never asks for his "friends" when he doesn't see them. It
is as if they kind of cease to exist when he doesn't see them. I think
he is just very "in the moment" and therefore doesn't miss them.
>
> Eventually got a school place, and was put up a year, into a class
> where I think several children were down a year. It would probably
> have been social doom for most children. I was oblivious until firmly
> told to go away. (Apparently, the idea that I might play with people
> from other classes was beyond me.) Hid behind one of the portacabins
> at breaks, until I was discovered by a teacher on my own and in tears,
> and provided with 'friends' (who, astonishingly, didn't act
> resentfully towards me because of it).
Oddly enough, when I was a kid, I was often the one the teacher paired
up with the outcasts. I remember once when I was in about 2nd grade, a
new girl came in our class and my teacher told me to be friends with
her, and I was. Looking back now, if my memory serves me correctly
regarding the way she behaved, she most certainly had autism. Other
kids called her "retarded," but I knew she wasn't because in spending
time with her I could tell she was smart. She was very odd, though,
but I didn't mind, and I felt special that my teacher chose me to be
her friend.
>People I spent time with, and
> I didn't make the distinction.
>
> Moved again, went to another school, found another lonely child on the
> edges. (Her mother had died, and I suppose unhappiness made her not
> fun to be with. To my adult shame, I abandoned her as soon as my
> classmates got accusomed to my presence.) & joined the cubs.
Cubs must be the equivalent to our Brownies. I was "kicked out" in
first grade. I told on the leader's daughter for stealing things out
of the desks in the room that we were in. She denied it and beause she
was kind of a bully, no one backed me up. So my mom never took me back
after that.
> Cubs was ideal for me. Partly because Akela had a gift for bringing
> out the best in children - and would never have allowed unhealthy
> social dynamics -, but partly because of the inherent structure of the
> thing. A six is a ready made social unit: there was lots of directed
> activity together, but not too together. And there were clear
> expectations and rewards for meeting them. I flourished like the
> green bay tree, which is probably the only time I've flourished in any
> offline social context. Don't recall ever interacting with any of the
> other girls outside cubs. Don't recall ever minding that, or noticing
> it. It's only in adulthood that I realise that, for other people,
> 'making friends' would have been part of the expected order of play.
>
> Guides later on was much less orderly and much less enjoyable, more
> edgy, in some undefined way (probably to do with the social to and
> fro), even though I joined because my then 'best friend' (who
> nonetheless never spoke to me at school, or when her school friends
> were around - there's a pattern in all this) was a guide.
>
> All matters social got quite a lot worse from about 10 up, when the
> social jostling develops a nastier edge, such as slices through
> oblivion. I did usually have one friend, or at least someone too
> polite to tell me I wasn't welcome - I latched on to people -, &
> tended to keep them a year or two; I think until they grew up a bit
> and I didn't, or possibly until I wore out their politeness.
>
Thank you for your story, Baba. I always enjoy reading what you have
written.
Dolphinius
> Dolphinius,
>
> May I ask if you ever felt excluded? Buillied or teased?
Yes, you (and anyone else for that matter) can always ask anything.
> I'm not trying to be intrusive...just trying to understand from as
> many angles as I can.
I don't remember feeling excluded. I don't think my autism was as
severe as D's. I did talk and it was obvious to other people that I
was relatively intelligent (e.g. good reading and numerical skills).
Consequently I did have interaction with other children even if I
didn't make normal friendships. Most of them were good or neutral
interactions as far as I was concerned.
I remember when I was very young (maybe 6 years old) puzzling over why
one particular boy openly didn't like me. I spent a lot of time
thinking about it and trying to analyse it. I didn't understand why he
behaved differently to other children towards me. Eventually my
parents managed to get me to talk about it and they persuaded me that
some people are not possible to understand and I should just ignore /
avoid him. That was a good lesson to learn - it has proved useful in
lots of other situations since.
My parents also taught me how to avoid being bullied. In particular
this included never showing the bully that you were bothered by them.
A combination of that, avoiding people who were unpleasant, and
generally behaving in a way towards other children that meant they
didn't have a reason to dislike me meant that I was hardly ever
bullied. (For example, I was modest, helped people and showed respect
for people.)
Probably people tried to tease me from time to time. I don't remember
many specific incidents so I don't think it happened often, but to the
extent people did it never bothered me. My parents taught me "sticks
and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me". I found
it easy to take that literally and I have never minded anything anyone
has said about me. Whenever I am criticised I think about what the
person is saying and either agree (if I think they are right) or
ignore it (if I think they are wrong). Actually, I don't ignore it -
that is just from the perspective of my feelings. I then tend to go on
to think why they might have formed that impression and if there is
something I can do about it.
Much of my personality is like a computer. I process information and
the algorithms in my brain then try to optimise the result. I don't
need to feel loved or liked by anyone although I do try to earn
peoples' respect. What is important is that I can trust and respect
myself.
Aquarian Monkey
Thanks Dolphinius!
I suppose the answer is that some people simply have a preference for
a more solitary lifestyle, whereas others--even though it may not be
apparent to onlookers--*want* to be included but have difficulty
knowing how.
I think that until D is a little older and is better able to tell me
how she feels about things, I am going to have to assume she plays by
herself because she is not interested in what many of the other kids
play and that she enjoys doing so, and that sometimes (like in her
afterschool program) she probably does it because she is "spent" for
the day and doesn't have the energy for other people. I will also
continue to make sure she knows *how* to play with other kids.
I am hoping I can keep an open and trusting dialog with her like I
have her brother. He will always tell me how he feels about things and
he trusts me when I make suggestions regarding what he might do if he
is feeling unhappy with something. He is different from D, though. He
is a big rule follower. I can teach him to maneuver through things
just by explaining parameters, walking through various scenarios, and
role playing. When he was D's age (and even to some extent now), all I
have to say to get him to comply is "that is the rule." D is not like
that. She doesn't care what the rule is; she just wants to do what she
wants to do. It might make it more difficult for me to help her as she
gets older because the methods I use with R may not work. I guess I'll
have to invent new methods when I get there.
Both of my kids are mild enough that they "pass" to a great extent.
They are both intelligent, and they are both physically attractive.
For some reason, I keep hanging on the hope that these things will
somehow save them from a life of ridicule and loneliness. I realize
that is wishful thinking, but I always find myself going back to that
hope.
earthpots
I joined the school newspaper in Junior High. I was a part of my High School
Class Steering Committee, and did Archery Intramurals.
>
> ======================
> to email send to astri
> ======================
> at volcano dot org
> ======================
--
Arak
> So, what I am asking of those of you who are willing to share, please
> share with me your memories of childhood, particularly if you were a
> kid who didn't often play with others. Was it because you didn't care
> to? Or because you didnt' know how to?
For me, it was a combination of both. The kids weren't really up to my
level for starters. I was the only kid who could read, write, speak at
a high school level and count to over 1000 in kindergarten and I just
couldn't relate to the things they'd talk about. I also still had some
weird behaviours and was perhaps a little too desperate to become
friends with the other kids.
I preferred the company of adults and would talk about the news with
adults on the bus rather than talk about whatever the other kids were
talking about. Naturally, this alienated me from the other kids and,
by the time I was in grade 1, I was picked on relentlessly. That would
start about 10 years of non-stop bullying and being ostracized. I
literally had no friends... well, no real ones anyway.
There was always one girl who would pay attention to me, but if we
went around and asked the other kids if we could play, they always
said that my "friend" could, but not me. Eventually, I just decided
that they weren't worth my time or energy... why be nice to kids who
are always mean to you? Why be friends with people who clearly do not
want to be? Why even waste time with a bunch of people who were way
below my intelligence level anyway? (My dad used to ask me that) I
just learned to amuse myself. Sometimes, I would go to the school that
was next door to ours and play with the kids there. They were a lot
nicer to me than the kids at my own school were.
I soon found that I was better company and I enjoyed doing things by
myself. I'd read, draw, write stories or even just sing. My parents
both worked late, so I was a latchkey kid and learned how to cook my
own dinners by the time I was 8. I got a lot of time to myself and I
*loved* it! All through my childhood, I was happiest when I was in my
room for hours, drawing cartoons and writing. My parents were good
enough to leave me a lone because they knew this was my haven away
from the BS at school.
I don't think I turned out that bad and I often wonder if more
autistic kids wouldn't be better off if their parents gave them their
space more often?
All through the summer, my parents would sign me up for recreational
activities held by the City, so I spent a lot of time with other kids
and did pretty well for myself there too. Obviously, my social skills
were not *that* bad if I had friends in the neighbourhood and in all
of my extracurricular activities... it was only at school that I had
the problem with other kids. Why was that?
I was stuck going to the same school with the same kids right up until
grade 10. In junior high, I did a little better because I started
hanging out with older kids from other schools. Most of the people who
would become good friends to this day were in high school while I was
still in junior high. I had a boyfriend in grade 10 and I was always
going to the high school dances rather than the junior high ones.
When I was in grade 10, an incident happened where I was beaten over
the head with a stick and that was the last straw for my parents and
for me. I switched to an alternative high school where the kids had to
be academically inclined (this was not special ed - I was never in a
special ed class in my life), but had issues with other kids or the
structure, etc. I thrived there because we were treated like adults
and were expected to be responsible like adults. All of a sudden, I
had tons of friends! The first year was spent hanging out with people
and just enjoying the fact that I had people my own age to hang out
with who really liked me for who I was. I ended up having to cram my
schoolwork in at the end of each semester because of that. However, by
my second year, I bucked down and got honour roll grades for the first
time in my life. The change of school made such a difference for me.
When I got married, my mother asked if she could do a video
presentation with music using pictures of my childhood. I told her
that I don't want to be reminded of my horrible childhood. I hated
being a child and I never could relate to children even when I was a
child.
Some words of "wisdom" (If you can call it that) from my own
experience:
* Give D her space and let her have it. My room was my space and I
would spend hours there. I was left alone if I was there unless
something important was happening like guests being over or it was
suppertime. My parents also didn't have a lot of time for me so I
spent a lot of my time alone which I think helped me learn to be
independent. I find that so many parents are constantly hovering over
their kids these days and wonder if more young people on the autism
spectrum might be more independent with less people in their face all
the time? Just curious.
* D might get along better with older kids or even adults. All of my
friends were either older or were above average intelligence if they
were my age. I found that a lot of the kiddie activities just didn't
do it for me and I enjoyed being with people more up to my level.
* Remember that schools are often not the best places to learn social
skills. Most kids do not want to be there and they show it by
reverting to behaviour that is more in line with an institutional
setting, including cliques and scapegoating to make their lives
easier.
My theory on this:
The principles of social control are in effect in any institution,
including a school where there are more children than teachers, and
all people will resist social control in one of three ways: escape,
revolution or passive resistance. Since schools are not that bad and
kids would get in trouble for skipping school or being too resistant,
they resort to passive resistance, which is the most annoying and
often more effective.
Passive resistance can include lashing out at peers who are perceived
to be weaker (bullying), pulling pranks to irk the teachers (whoopee
cushions on the teacher's chair, etc.) or using insults and sarcasm
(but being polite enough about it to not get into trouble).
Since schools are cracking down on bullying, overt physical attacks
against the weaker-seeming peers are becoming less frequent, so
bullies have to resort to psychological warfare instead. This includes
scapegoating, calling names, ignoring, ostracizing or not allowing the
person to participate in activities.
It's easy to punish a child who has just hit another child or done
something physical to them. Psychological abuse is harder to prove and
to discipline...and the bullies know it! It's is much more difficult
to punish a kid when they say "Well, he's too quiet" or "She can't
talk and we were playing a game where everyone needs to speak" or "he
just didn't want to play with us" or "We just didn't think she'd like
or be able to play what we were playing."
Kids know all of the little tricks to get around getting in trouble
for bullying and the rule of the playground still stands: don't tell
authorities if you are being picked on or given the cold shoulder or
it will come back worse for you later on.
* Extracurricular activities that D enjoys as she gets older. For
instance, I had dance class (I loved to dance) and the summer
activities which helped me learn those social skills. It was here that
I learned that I was not necessarily the reason behind me being
bullied. I learned that it was not my fault that the kids at school
were so awful.
> She then goes to a
> typical afterschool program where she either draws, naps or plays by
> herself. She appears happy when I pick her up.
If she seems happy, then she probably is. I'd leave it at that and not
try to over-analyze the situation. She is only 4 and as she gets
older, she might start to find activities that she likes that she can
make friends at. She may also need schooling that is more challenging
for her intellect. Many people make the mistake of underestimating an
autistic person's intelligence. Not being able to speak or socialize
correctly does not mean a person is stupid. Dumbing down activities
and learning does nothing more than either bore a person or make them
feel like they must be stupid so they live up to the label because no
will give them the benefit of the doubt.
Just my thoughts. Best wishes :^)
Arak /|\
Zed
> Over the summer, sometimes when I'd drop my daughter off at summer
> camp, I'd stay behind and watch her without her knowledge. Almost
> always, she went to a part of the playground where no one was and play
> by herself. Part of me wanted to cry. I remember feeling excluded
> sometimes as a kid and it really hurt. But then as I watched her, she
> *looked* happy enough to be playing on her own so I just decided that
> that was one of those NT norms that doesn't apply to her.
>
> I have been reading John Elder Robison's book "look me in the eye." .
> In it, he says that one of his concerns for autistic kids is that
> people assert that they do not *want* social contact. He feels that in
> his case, this was far from the truth. He played alone only because he
> didn't know how to play with the other kids, not because he didn't
> have a desire. He *did* have the desire, just not the skill.
Yes, that's it. I remember once when I was about 9 years old I was
standing on the corner and I could here some kids I knew coming around
the block, and me diving into some bushes to hide, so that they
wouldn't be able to ask me to join them in playing whatever. I
attributed that as an in inherent desire to be by myself. But I
realize that it was more of a matter of not wanting to go through the
ordeal of being the odd man out, which was/is always the case.
Andrew Floyd
About the only thing I can say is that I hated school and being around
the others in my class. My older sister did really well in school and
unfortunately I got compared to her a lot. Which didn't make me feel any
better because I wasn't her and I wasn't as driven for success. My
grades probably suffered because of hating school.
I had few friends then. Of course the big ostracize event came in 3rd
grade when one kid had a birthday party and the whole class was invited.
I barely knew the kid and didn't really like him enough to be at a party
for him. But my mom and grandparents went out to buy him something so I
could give it to him (instead of me just picking out something) but the
main problem was there was no driving directions on how to find his
house. So it ended up I didn't go because we had no idea where he lived.
As it turned out, everyone else from the class went except me. And that
was pretty much impressed upon me afterwards for a long time.
Then there were the times in classes where you had to Turn Towards Your
Neighbor and exchange a quiz with them and check each others answers.
Unless the teacher specified how to do this, nobody turned to me to
exchange papers. And from time to time, I'd have to exchange with
someone who didn't know how to mark the paper right, and try to mark
more answers wrong because they didn't like me.
A lot of these problems went away during higher education after high
school. I did better when no one knew me.
Did I want to play with others? I dunno. Maybe the thought never crossed
my mind that I should. Gym class was about the only time that I did, and
I hated it so much that when it came to high school, I got to be the guy
who took care of the changing baskets and didn't have to do anything
else. (Hard to describe what that was so don't ask.)
"Read this very carefully, I shall type this only once nyo!"
"There would be little point in typing it twice nyo!!" - 'Allo 'Allo nyo
"They make crayONs; do they make crayOFFs?"
CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech
The Autist formerly known as
the same, then I speak for myself also. There is an old saying, that if you
have seen one autistic, you have seen one autistic.
I do crave solitude at times. I stood alone because there wasn't an
acceptable alternative I knew of, but I am not altogether sure that I wanted
one, I just wanted out of that situation and somewhere else than to be in
the playground.
I was solitary, I was alone, and fortunately my parents did not think any
wrong in it, never mind what the school thought.
My greatest joy this Christmas, as in Christmases past for some time will be
to be alone and away from the world.
--
�T
L'autisme c'est moi
"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"
"Aquarian Monkey" <aquaria...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:e7ae0e27-16d9-4013...@g23g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
> Over the summer, sometimes when I'd drop my daughter off at summer
> camp, I'd stay behind and watch her without her knowledge. Almost
> always, she went to a part of the playground where no one was and play
> by herself. Part of me wanted to cry. I remember feeling excluded
> sometimes as a kid and it really hurt. But then as I watched her, she
> *looked* happy enough to be playing on her own so I just decided that
> that was one of those NT norms that doesn't apply to her.
>
> I have been reading John Elder Robison's book "look me in the eye." .
> In it, he says that one of his concerns for autistic kids is that
> people assert that they do not *want* social contact. He feels that in
> his case, this was far from the truth. He played alone only because he
> didn't know how to play with the other kids, not because he didn't
> have a desire. He *did* have the desire, just not the skill.
>
> So now I feel all sad when I hear from her teachers that unless she is
> directed to play with others, she tends to play alone. What if it's
> because she doesn't know *how* to play with them and inside she feels
> sad and chooses to play alone only because it is easier, not because
> it's what she really wants? Also, I think her peers are starting to
> understand there is something different about her. She seems to be
> well-liked, but...for example, I one time overheard two of her
> classmates talking. One said "Why is D always so quiet?" The other one
> said "I don't know. Probably because she can't talk right." I know
> when she does play with other kids it is more likely to be the boys
> because their play is more active.
>
> So, what I am asking of those of you who are willing to share, please
> share with me your memories of childhood, particularly if you were a
> kid who didn't often play with others. Was it because you didn't care
> to? Or because you didnt' know how to? Any words of wisdom I can use
> for my dd? She's 4, btw, and attends a typical preschool with 15 hours
> of 1:1 with a woman who is a special ed teacher trained in ABA. THe
> rest of the hours she is on her own and does well. She then goes to a
> typical afterschool program where she either draws, naps or plays by
> herself. She appears happy when I pick her up.
>
Bob Badour
> The Elder Robinsons truth is not mine, he speaks for himself, and if I do
> the same, then I speak for myself also. There is an old saying, that if you
> have seen one autistic, you have seen one autistic.
>
> I do crave solitude at times. I stood alone because there wasn't an
> acceptable alternative I knew of, but I am not altogether sure that I wanted
> one, I just wanted out of that situation and somewhere else than to be in
> the playground.
>
> I was solitary, I was alone, and fortunately my parents did not think any
> wrong in it, never mind what the school thought.
>
> My greatest joy this Christmas, as in Christmases past for some time will be
> to be alone and away from the world.
Hear! Hear!
I used to think Christmases alone would be something sad, but then I
actually tried it. It's da bomb!
I cook something nice for myself, and the dogs get a taste of people
food. It's quiet, relaxing, serene, and I don't think I could be any
happier.
--
is there something in it for them, like maybe bailouts, if they can
panic us into doing something politically to cover them?
November 19, 2007 - John S Bolton
Dolphinius
> I suppose the answer is that some people simply have a preference for
> a more solitary lifestyle, whereas others--even though it may not be
> apparent to onlookers--*want* to be included but have difficulty
> knowing how.
Yes, that is probably true. If D is happy playing on her own she may
well fall into the former category, though it is probably best to be
open-minded until you have stronger indications.
> I think that until D is a little older and is better able to tell me
> how she feels about things, I am going to have to assume she plays by
> herself because she is not interested in what many of the other kids
> play and that she enjoys doing so, and that sometimes (like in her
> afterschool program) she probably does it because she is "spent" for
> the day and doesn't have the energy for other people. I will also
> continue to make sure she knows *how* to play with other kids.
I agree that is a good approach.
> I am hoping I can keep an open and trusting dialog with her like I
> have her brother. He will always tell me how he feels about things and
> he trusts me when I make suggestions regarding what he might do if he
> is feeling unhappy with something. He is different from D, though. He
> is a big rule follower. I can teach him to maneuver through things
> just by explaining parameters, walking through various scenarios, and
> role playing. When he was D's age (and even to some extent now), all I
> have to say to get him to comply is "that is the rule." D is not like
> that. She doesn't care what the rule is; she just wants to do what she
> wants to do. It might make it more difficult for me to help her as she
> gets older because the methods I use with R may not work. I guess I'll
> have to invent new methods when I get there.
It sounds like R is closer to what I was like when I was young than
what D is. I was influenced by several "rules" I was taught, one of
the key ones being the inverse "golden rule" (don't do to others as
you would not want done to you).
> Both of my kids are mild enough that they "pass" to a great extent.
> They are both intelligent, and they are both physically attractive.
> For some reason, I keep hanging on the hope that these things will
> somehow save them from a life of ridicule and loneliness. I realize
> that is wishful thinking, but I always find myself going back to that
> hope.
It sounds like you're being pessimistic about ridicule and loneliness.
Physical attractiveness could be a curse as well as a blessing, but
intelligence will get them a long way. However, they will need your
help.
Dolphinius
> I preferred the company of adults and would talk about the news with
> adults on the bus rather than talk about whatever the other kids were
> talking about.
I was like that. I preferred the company of adults. I think that was
because if a child engaged in serious discussions with an adult then
the adult would go along with it because they would see it as being
good developmentally for the child. There was therefore no pressure to
small-talk or to socialise.