adderall's horrific long-term side effects
Spencer
am not understanding of the pain of ADD please read this next sentence
very carefully. I thought when I was diagnosed with ADD "thank
goodness, I understand my problem now" but the drugs they gave me
opened me up to whole new plane of suffering that I never knew
existed. Some might say I simply had a developing psychotic disorder
that happened to hit when I went on and off the meds but I will
explain very clearly why this is not the case. Adderall messed me up,
plain and simple. I would use stonger words but nothing could
possibly encapsulate the pain I have been through. Be warned, parts
of my story are not for the faint of heart.
I was given adderall at 60 mg a day for a year and a half. That year
and a half was heaven but I had all the hallmarks of someone severely
addicted to speed (which adderall is by the way, and for anyone who
wants to nitpick the differences between methamphetamine and
dextroamphetime or the difference between street and clinical dosages,
read on because I will address these). I was gritting my teeth (my
dentist now tells me without exaggeration that my two front teeth are
worn down to what one would normally expect on a fifty year old), I
lost weight, my heart was running high constantly and most dangerous
of all I was constantly in a speedy euphoria for most of that year and
a half. Read this next sentence very carefully. I TOOK THE ADDERALL
AS PRESCRIBED no more no less.
Once my doctor realized what was going on he pulled me off of it cold
turkey whilst muttering something about neurotoxicity. This when the
real hell began. I was consumed with grief and despair and despite
what everyone was telling me, it did not go away. At the time of this
writing I will be going on three years since they pulled me off of it
and it still has not gone away. It is always just beneath the
surface. I have just had to learn to live with it there. Believe me,
I wish I were kidding.
For the next two years my mind fell apart. There is no other way to
describe it. I was punching myself until I saw lights, putting out
cigarretes on myself (most understandably I began to smoke),
interrupting my normal self mid-sentence so my paranoid side could
tell it to shut up and staring for hours on end at various blank walls
around my house. One psychologist who interviewed and tested me
offered to hospitalize me against my will even though I was legally an
adult at this time (my parents would not sign the papers thank
goodness). Worst of all though was my constant and scary suicidal
ideation. I still get a wave of pleasure at the thought of jumping
off a building or sticking two forks in an electrical socket, because
it would mean my pain would be over.
Two years and a lot of antipsychotic medication later I was beginning
to become outwardly functional despite the fact that the pain was
still there. I eventually came to the decision that I wanted to
escape from it all and I went overseas. I ended up becoming a pothead
for about three months. I then realized I did not want to be a
pothead and came home to the States. Please note that THC (marijuana)
is the only illegal drug I have ever taken, and also note that I took
after the worst of my psychotic stage. Anyways when I got home I got
what addicts call a pink cloud (a period of time after you quit using
during which you feel a warm sense of well being and motivation, sort
of like the eye of a hurricane). It didn't last but during it I
managed to sign up for two courses at a local university and get a job
as a lab tech. I then had a slight fallback and ended up seeking
solace in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. I thought everyone would
laugh at me for saying I was addicted to adderall but it was the exact
opposite. I am not the only one there who was messed up by
prescription drugs, even when taken as prescribed. At this point I
would like to point out to the reader that adderall fetches a pretty
penny these days on college campuses. Just google it and you will see
stories about it on the news.
Anyways that is where I am now. But before I wrap up I would like to
point out a few things. Some would argue that adderall and street
speed are two completely different chemicals. This is true and false.
Adderall is a mix of levoamphetamine and dextroamphetamine
stereoisomers, and street speed is USUALLY methamphetamine. But the
point is experienced drug users have trouble telling the difference
not to mention that street speed sometimes IS dextroamphetamine, hence
the slang name "dexies." Some would also argue that steet speed is
taken in higher dosages than adderall. NOT TRUE, methamphetamine in
powder form is 5 to 10 percent pure once it is cut a the dealer level
(for any nitpickers DEA seizures ARE around 20 to 40 percent but that
is at the middleman level) and with the ballpark dose being 400 mg,
this translates to 20 to 40 mg pure amphetamine. I was on 60 mg a day
of adderall for a year and a half. That speaks for itself. Crystal
Meth which is smoked and is close to 100 percent purity is a different
story but the point is that the effective doses are not so different
as the doctors and pharmaceuticals would like the public to believe.
And finally for anyone who insists that any of this would surely have
shown up as a disaster on a clinical trial, remember that what
happened to me would not have shown up on a one or maybe even a two
year followup study. Remember that lots of these studies are on the
scale of 20 weeks and the longest followup I could find looking up
abstracts on medline was 2 years. Also go to
www.erowid.org/experiences and go to the amphetamines section. You
will notice there are about 50 adderall reports with a few stories
similar to mine. And lastly, adderall was marketed previously under
the name obetrol in the 70's as a diet pill and was pulled off the
market due to safety concerns.
You might ask, am I an alarmist? Yes I am, and with good reason.
Whether it was negliglence, poor science or the pull of the almighty
dollar somebody screwed up, and I will pay for their mistake for the
rest of my life.
J. Clarke
> Before anyone starts to tell me that I am being insensitive or that I
> am not understanding of the pain of ADD please read this next sentence
> very carefully. I thought when I was diagnosed with ADD "thank
> goodness, I understand my problem now" but the drugs they gave me
> opened me up to whole new plane of suffering that I never knew
> existed. Some might say I simply had a developing psychotic disorder
> that happened to hit when I went on and off the meds but I will
> explain very clearly why this is not the case.
Having read your post I see no evidence that would show that "this was not
the case".
> Adderall messed me up,
> plain and simple. I would use stonger words but nothing could
> possibly encapsulate the pain I have been through. Be warned, parts
> of my story are not for the faint of heart.
>
> I was given adderall at 60 mg a day for a year and a half.
That is 20mg/day above the maximum recommended daily dosage for treatment of
ADHD and is the highest recommended divided dose for treatment of
narcolepsy. Something is fishy here.
> That year
> and a half was heaven but I had all the hallmarks of someone severely
> addicted to speed (which adderall is by the way, and for anyone who
> wants to nitpick the differences between methamphetamine and
> dextroamphetime or the difference between street and clinical dosages,
> read on because I will address these).
Speed is one of the components.
> I was gritting my teeth (my
> dentist now tells me without exaggeration that my two front teeth are
> worn down to what one would normally expect on a fifty year old),
So? I grit my teeth with no meds at all.
> I
> lost weight,
Which is not a symptom of being "severely addicted to speed".
> my heart was running high constantly
How high?
> and most dangerous
> of all I was constantly in a speedy euphoria for most of that year and
> a half.
Did you tell your physician this?
Read this next sentence very carefully. I TOOK THE ADDERALL
> AS PRESCRIBED no more no less.
And why did you take it if you didn't like what it was doing to you?
> Once my doctor realized what was going on he pulled me off of it cold
> turkey whilst muttering something about neurotoxicity.
What did he mutter, exactly?
> This when the
> real hell began. I was consumed with grief and despair and despite
> what everyone was telling me, it did not go away. At the time of this
> writing I will be going on three years since they pulled me off of it
> and it still has not gone away. It is always just beneath the
> surface. I have just had to learn to live with it there. Believe me,
> I wish I were kidding.
Pity. But how is it that so few others experience this?
> For the next two years my mind fell apart. There is no other way to
> describe it. I was punching myself until I saw lights, putting out
> cigarretes on myself (most understandably I began to smoke),
> interrupting my normal self mid-sentence so my paranoid side could
> tell it to shut up and staring for hours on end at various blank walls
> around my house. One psychologist who interviewed and tested me
> offered to hospitalize me against my will even though I was legally an
> adult at this time (my parents would not sign the papers thank
> goodness).
He "offered to hospitalize you against your will"? Interesting wording
that. Usually if someone does something to you against your will they
don't ask your permission first.
> Worst of all though was my constant and scary suicidal
> ideation. I still get a wave of pleasure at the thought of jumping
> off a building or sticking two forks in an electrical socket, because
> it would mean my pain would be over.
>
> Two years and a lot of antipsychotic medication later I was beginning
> to become outwardly functional despite the fact that the pain was
> still there.
They were giving you antipsychotics but you claim that you don't have a
psychotic disorder? What's wrong with this picture?
> I eventually came to the decision that I wanted to
> escape from it all and I went overseas. I ended up becoming a pothead
> for about three months. I then realized I did not want to be a
> pothead and came home to the States. Please note that THC (marijuana)
> is the only illegal drug I have ever taken, and also note that I took
> after the worst of my psychotic stage.
In whose judgment was this "after the worst of your psychotic stage"?
Yours, or that of the physicians treating you?
> Anyways when I got home I got
> what addicts call a pink cloud (a period of time after you quit using
> during which you feel a warm sense of well being and motivation, sort
> of like the eye of a hurricane).
And why did that happen if you weren't addicted to anything? Or if you were
addicted to marijuana then how did you manage to stop taking it so easily?
> It didn't last but during it I
> managed to sign up for two courses at a local university and get a job
> as a lab tech. I then had a slight fallback
What kind of "fallback"?
> and ended up seeking
> solace in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. I thought everyone would
> laugh at me for saying I was addicted to adderall but it was the exact
> opposite. I am not the only one there who was messed up by
> prescription drugs, even when taken as prescribed. At this point I
> would like to point out to the reader that adderall fetches a pretty
> penny these days on college campuses. Just google it and you will see
> stories about it on the news.
So?
> Anyways that is where I am now. But before I wrap up I would like to
> point out a few things. Some would argue that adderall and street
> speed are two completely different chemicals. This is true and false.
> Adderall is a mix of levoamphetamine and dextroamphetamine
> stereoisomers, and street speed is USUALLY methamphetamine.
Methamphetamine sulfate is one of the components. So what?
> But the
> point is experienced drug users have trouble telling the difference
> not to mention that street speed sometimes IS dextroamphetamine, hence
> the slang name "dexies." Some would also argue that steet speed is
> taken in higher dosages than adderall. NOT TRUE, methamphetamine in
> powder form is 5 to 10 percent pure once it is cut a the dealer level
> (for any nitpickers DEA seizures ARE around 20 to 40 percent but that
> is at the middleman level) and with the ballpark dose being 400 mg,
> this translates to 20 to 40 mg pure amphetamine.
And you know this how?
> I was on 60 mg a day
> of adderall for a year and a half. That speaks for itself.
In what way does it "speak for itself"? I've been on a much higher dose of
DHMO my entire life and I'll die if I stop taking it. Does that also
"speak for itself"?
> Crystal
> Meth which is smoked and is close to 100 percent purity is a different
> story but the point is that the effective doses are not so different
> as the doctors and pharmaceuticals would like the public to believe.
Again, your source for this information?
> And finally for anyone who insists that any of this would surely have
> shown up as a disaster on a clinical trial, remember that what
> happened to me would not have shown up on a one or maybe even a two
> year followup study.
Why is it that with all the people on adderall and all the time that has
elapsed since it was put on the market nobody has noticed this if it is a
"common" story?
I am curious as to why you come here and scare people rather than going to a
lawyer and possibly getting this medication that you perceive to be
dangerous removed from the market.
> Remember that lots of these studies are on the
> scale of 20 weeks and the longest followup I could find looking up
> abstracts on medline was 2 years. Also go to
> www.erowid.org/experiences and go to the amphetamines section. You
> will notice there are about 50 adderall reports with a few stories
> similar to mine.
How many of those involved doses of less than 40mg? Just of the ones that
were "like yours"?
> And lastly, adderall was marketed previously under
> the name obetrol in the 70's as a diet pill and was pulled off the
> market due to safety concerns.
>
> You might ask, am I an alarmist? Yes I am, and with good reason.
> Whether it was negliglence, poor science or the pull of the almighty
> dollar somebody screwed up, and I will pay for their mistake for the
> rest of my life.
Why haven't you hired a lawyer and gone after that physician who prescribed
you a dose higher than recommended and left you on it for a year and a half
without proper follow-up.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Emma Anne
> I
> lost weight, my heart was running high constantly and most dangerous
> of all I was constantly in a speedy euphoria for most of that year and
> a half.
I am sorry to read your story. But I must tell you that these symptoms
indicate that you were taking *way too much* Adderal. You should not
feel any "speedy euphoria" at all. Your doctor was very much at fault
if he did not tell you this.
CK
5 years without experiencing anything like what you have described. I now
take 40 mg (less stressful job), for another 5 years.
I have had sleep problems but never any "speedy feeling." I can get that
with half a cup of Victor Allen coffee. I concur with J. Clarke's and Emma
Anne's comments / questions.
CK
Spencer
happen. Nothing constructive or informative can occur in an
environment of animosity. I will therefore maintain a polite
conversation on my end and I hope that you or anyone else who posts
will do the same. I am just telling my story, as well as what my own
research has uncovered.
"J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message news:<ceteh...@news3.newsguy.com>...
> Spencer wrote:
>
> > Before anyone starts to tell me that I am being insensitive or that I
> > am not understanding of the pain of ADD please read this next sentence
> > very carefully. I thought when I was diagnosed with ADD "thank
> > goodness, I understand my problem now" but the drugs they gave me
> > opened me up to whole new plane of suffering that I never knew
> > existed. Some might say I simply had a developing psychotic disorder
> > that happened to hit when I went on and off the meds but I will
> > explain very clearly why this is not the case.
>
> Having read your post I see no evidence that would show that "this was not
> the case".
I understand your point, but I must say the following. One counselor
insisted that I was manic-depressive, but the idea that I had a year
and a half manic and then two years depressed and psychotic, when most
manic depressives have cycles on the scale of weeks was ridiculous.
Especially if I were to assume that being on and off the adderall just
happened to coincide with these states. With respect to regular
psychosis (i.e. schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder etc.) which
manifest themselves usually in late adolescence/early adulthood, I
find it hard to believe that based on my symptoms on and off the
adderall that I had anything other than an amphetamine induced
psychosis. See my references throughout this second posting.
>
> > Adderall messed me up,
> > plain and simple. I would use stonger words but nothing could
> > possibly encapsulate the pain I have been through. Be warned, parts
> > of my story are not for the faint of heart.
> >
> > I was given adderall at 60 mg a day for a year and a half.
>
> That is 20mg/day above the maximum recommended daily dosage for treatment of
> ADHD and is the highest recommended divided dose for treatment of
> narcolepsy. Something is fishy here.
Adderall is prescribed in 60 mg a day amounts for ADD see the
following link. Also, in the Physicians desk reference it says you
can go above 40 mg a day in rare cases for ADD. I weighed about 176
pounds at the time I was being medicated and I was characterized as a
"high metabolizer." And if I should have known better than to let my
doctor go above 40 mg a day, I plead guilty to trusting him.
>
> > That year
> > and a half was heaven but I had all the hallmarks of someone severely
> > addicted to speed (which adderall is by the way, and for anyone who
> > wants to nitpick the differences between methamphetamine and
> > dextroamphetime or the difference between street and clinical dosages,
> > read on because I will address these).
>
> Speed is one of the components.
>
> > I was gritting my teeth (my
> > dentist now tells me without exaggeration that my two front teeth are
> > worn down to what one would normally expect on a fifty year old),
>
> So? I grit my teeth with no meds at all.
I am just telling what my dentist told me. Lots of people grit their
teeth, that is true, mainly in their sleep. But my teeth now look 30
years older than they should look. Some speed addicts grind their
teeth down to nubs. See the following link.
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/meth_effects.shtml
>
> > I
> > lost weight,
>
> Which is not a symptom of being "severely addicted to speed".
It is one characteristic of a speed addict. This is why they
regularly suffer from weight loss and malnutrition. Also adderall was
once a diet pill called obetrol. See the following link.
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/meth_effects.shtml
>
> > my heart was running high constantly
>
> How high?
Not sure but my father felt my heartbeat at one point and as a runner
who regularly checks his own he characterized it as extremely fast.
>
> > and most dangerous
> > of all I was constantly in a speedy euphoria for most of that year and
> > a half.
>
> Did you tell your physician this?
I would go into his office every month and he would ask me how I was
doing and I would say "great, wonderful, I have never been better!"
whilst shivering with nervous energy. It is just like the bad old
days of the early 1900s, when cough syrup contained obscene amounts of
cocaine. The person would take it, and they would feel better... for
a while.
>
> Read this next sentence very carefully. I TOOK THE ADDERALL
> > AS PRESCRIBED no more no less.
>
> And why did you take it if you didn't like what it was doing to you?
That is just what the problem was: while I was taking it, I did not
care what was happening to my body, because it was getting me high. I
trusted my doctor that if I took it as prescribed the chances of
something bad happening were very small.
>
> > Once my doctor realized what was going on he pulled me off of it cold
> > turkey whilst muttering something about neurotoxicity.
>
> What did he mutter, exactly?
I don't remember more than that he said he was convinced there were
neurotoxic effects at work. I was going through an intense withdrawal
at the time.
>
> > This when the
> > real hell began. I was consumed with grief and despair and despite
> > what everyone was telling me, it did not go away. At the time of this
> > writing I will be going on three years since they pulled me off of it
> > and it still has not gone away. It is always just beneath the
> > surface. I have just had to learn to live with it there. Believe me,
> > I wish I were kidding.
>
> Pity. But how is it that so few others experience this?
You can believe me or not believe me. All I am doing is telling my
story. Also I am not the only one. Like I said in my original post
there are more people with stories similar to mine who have filled out
experience reports on www.erowid.org/experiences (go to the
amphetamines section) not to mention the people I have met in
Narcotics Anonymous. As of this posting I have plans to get all the
adverse reaction reports with respect to adderall that the FDA has
received under the Freedom of Information Act.
>
> > For the next two years my mind fell apart. There is no other way to
> > describe it. I was punching myself until I saw lights, putting out
> > cigarretes on myself (most understandably I began to smoke),
> > interrupting my normal self mid-sentence so my paranoid side could
> > tell it to shut up and staring for hours on end at various blank walls
> > around my house. One psychologist who interviewed and tested me
> > offered to hospitalize me against my will even though I was legally an
> > adult at this time (my parents would not sign the papers thank
> > goodness).
>
> He "offered to hospitalize you against your will"? Interesting wording
> that. Usually if someone does something to you against your will they
> don't ask your permission first.
My apologies, that statement was a little confusing. What I was
trying to say was that my parents were the ones receiving the offer,
which is why I wrote "my parents would not sign the papers thank
goodness."
>
> > Worst of all though was my constant and scary suicidal
> > ideation. I still get a wave of pleasure at the thought of jumping
> > off a building or sticking two forks in an electrical socket, because
> > it would mean my pain would be over.
> >
> > Two years and a lot of antipsychotic medication later I was beginning
> > to become outwardly functional despite the fact that the pain was
> > still there.
>
> They were giving you antipsychotics but you claim that you don't have a
> psychotic disorder? What's wrong with this picture?
What I mean is not that I never had a psychotic disorder, but that the
psychotic thinking was brought about as a direct result of the
adderall. I was diagnosed by another doctor with amphetamine
psychosis. It is a well documented disorder in speed addicts that
occurs as a direct result of prolonged amphetamine intoxication. It
is sometimes clinically indistinguishable from paranoid schizophrenia,
and is treated with antipsychotics. See the following links.
http://www.paihdelinkki.fi/english/faq/faq_aineet_02e.htm
http://www.update-software.com/abstracts/AB003026.htm
>
> > I eventually came to the decision that I wanted to
> > escape from it all and I went overseas. I ended up becoming a pothead
> > for about three months. I then realized I did not want to be a
> > pothead and came home to the States. Please note that THC (marijuana)
> > is the only illegal drug I have ever taken, and also note that I took
> > after the worst of my psychotic stage.
>
> In whose judgment was this "after the worst of your psychotic stage"?
> Yours, or that of the physicians treating you?
Both.
>
> > Anyways when I got home I got
> > what addicts call a pink cloud (a period of time after you quit using
> > during which you feel a warm sense of well being and motivation, sort
> > of like the eye of a hurricane).
>
> And why did that happen if you weren't addicted to anything? Or if you were
> addicted to marijuana then how did you manage to stop taking it so easily?
I am just telling it how it happened. Quitting the marijuana was a
piece of cake compared to the adderall... for me anyways.
>
> > It didn't last but during it I
> > managed to sign up for two courses at a local university and get a job
> > as a lab tech. I then had a slight fallback
>
> What kind of "fallback"?
My motivation vanished again, and I was beginning to crawl back into
my shell a little bit.
>
> > and ended up seeking
> > solace in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. I thought everyone would
> > laugh at me for saying I was addicted to adderall but it was the exact
> > opposite. I am not the only one there who was messed up by
> > prescription drugs, even when taken as prescribed. At this point I
> > would like to point out to the reader that adderall fetches a pretty
> > penny these days on college campuses. Just google it and you will see
> > stories about it on the news.
>
> So?
What I am trying to say is that this drug is used recreationally: when
I was taking the adderall I was at a residential school and someone
tipped me off that people were stealing it for personal use. The
point is that you would not put someone on crack no matter what
studies showed about improvement for this or that condition. Also,
even if you did you would be extremely careful and not just give every
practicing physician the right to prescribe it left and right.
>
> > Anyways that is where I am now. But before I wrap up I would like to
> > point out a few things. Some would argue that adderall and street
> > speed are two completely different chemicals. This is true and false.
> > Adderall is a mix of levoamphetamine and dextroamphetamine
> > stereoisomers, and street speed is USUALLY methamphetamine.
>
> Methamphetamine sulfate is one of the components. So what?
See the paragraph below where I respond to why 60 mg a day of adderall
for a year and a half speaks for itself.
>
> > But the
> > point is experienced drug users have trouble telling the difference
> > not to mention that street speed sometimes IS dextroamphetamine, hence
> > the slang name "dexies." Some would also argue that steet speed is
> > taken in higher dosages than adderall. NOT TRUE, methamphetamine in
> > powder form is 5 to 10 percent pure once it is cut a the dealer level
> > (for any nitpickers DEA seizures ARE around 20 to 40 percent but that
> > is at the middleman level) and with the ballpark dose being 400 mg,
> > this translates to 20 to 40 mg pure amphetamine.
>
> And you know this how?
experienced drug users have trouble telling the difference
http://www.kci.org/meth_info/PowerPoint/PATH/Crystal%20Meth%20Preveiw.pdf
Street speed is 5 to 10 percent pure at the dealer level
http://www.brookes.ac.uk/health/libra/speed.html!
BALLPARK dose of pure amphetamine is 20 to 40 mg
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/familyhealth/q_a/pages/1814.html
>
> > I was on 60 mg a day
> > of adderall for a year and a half. That speaks for itself.
>
> In what way does it "speak for itself"? I've been on a much higher dose of
> DHMO my entire life and I'll die if I stop taking it. Does that also
> "speak for itself"?
I am not saying that all drugs are bad. But no one in their right
mind would suggest to someone they cared about that they go on a year
and a half speed binge. Being under clinical supervision does not
make a difference in how the drug affects you.
>
> > Crystal
> > Meth which is smoked and is close to 100 percent purity is a different
> > story but the point is that the effective doses are not so different
> > as the doctors and pharmaceuticals would like the public to believe.
>
> Again, your source for this information?
with regards to the crystal meth I can cite the following links
http://www.drugfreehawaii.org/Main/Topics/facts/Fact%20Ice.pdf
http://www.doitnow.org/pages/101.html
>
> > And finally for anyone who insists that any of this would surely have
> > shown up as a disaster on a clinical trial, remember that what
> > happened to me would not have shown up on a one or maybe even a two
> > year followup study.
>
> Why is it that with all the people on adderall and all the time that has
> elapsed since it was put on the market nobody has noticed this if it is a
> "common" story?
>
> I am curious as to why you come here and scare people rather than going to a
> lawyer and possibly getting this medication that you perceive to be
> dangerous removed from the market.
I don't sue people. A huge settlement wouldn't change a thing for me.
It would just mean I would get paid to keep quiet and I won't do
that. I did what I should and filled out an FDA Medwatch Form 3500
(severe adverse reaction report). But I am convinced the FDA has its
hands tied politically due to a very strong middle class lobby in
support of ADD. I don't really hate anyone involved or think ADD
doesn't exist, It's just sad to see that the main ADD/ADHD
organization CHADD in funded mainly by pharmaceuticals. ( references
as follows http://ablechild.org/press.htm,
http://www.docdiller.com/article.php?op=Print&sid=21)
>
> > Remember that lots of these studies are on the
> > scale of 20 weeks and the longest followup I could find looking up
> > abstracts on medline was 2 years. Also go to
> > www.erowid.org/experiences and go to the amphetamines section. You
> > will notice there are about 50 adderall reports with a few stories
> > similar to mine.
>
> How many of those involved doses of less than 40mg? Just of the ones that
> were "like yours"?
Some of them did not say how much they were taking. But many of the
stories I am referring to were people who took the adderall at
prescribed dosages. I see no reason why they would lie, and even if
they were I have heard too many stories similar to mine in Narcotics
Anonymous.
>
> > And lastly, adderall was marketed previously under
> > the name obetrol in the 70's as a diet pill and was pulled off the
> > market due to safety concerns.
Here is a reference
http://www.add-adhd-help-center.com/adhd_medication_information.htm
> >
> > You might ask, am I an alarmist? Yes I am, and with good reason.
> > Whether it was negliglence, poor science or the pull of the almighty
> > dollar somebody screwed up, and I will pay for their mistake for the
> > rest of my life.
>
> Why haven't you hired a lawyer and gone after that physician who prescribed
> you a dose higher than recommended and left you on it for a year and a half
> without proper follow-up.
Like I said, I don't sue people. My family simply does not have the
energy to go through what would be a highly publicized lawsuit. If
there was a giant cover up on the part of the pharmaceutical company,
that would be a different story. The best thing I can do for society
as a whole is get my story out and let everyone make their own
decisions. Also, unfortunately the doctor who prescribed the adderall
(whom I will not name) was and is still a major researcher and is very
respected in his field. He has been published several times. I am
sorry but I cannot provide any references to this effect without
placing the doctor's identity in jeopardy, it would rude of me to do
so. My point is he was not a "quack" who just went nuts with the
prescription pad. He was supposed to know what he was doing.
My intent is not to scare people. I do understand though that I am
going to get a great deal of negative feedback from my post. By all
means disagree with me, but please be polite, it has taken a lot of
courage on my part to bare my soul like this. People may be scared,
confused or enraged by what I have to say but to any who feel this way
ask yourself this: Would you honestly rather I had kept silent and
left you to face the dangers uninformed of what this drug can do?
Joe Parsons
[snip]
>> > And lastly, adderall was marketed previously under
>> > the name obetrol in the 70's as a diet pill and was pulled off the
>> > market due to safety concerns.
>
>Here is a reference
>http://www.add-adhd-help-center.com/adhd_medication_information.htm
Just a couple of quick things:
First, it's always risky to trust sites like the above as reliable sources of
infomation. This one is marketing an "alternative" for treating ADHD.
Second, where do you get the information that Obetrol was removed from the
market (by Rexar) because of "safety concerns?"
Joe Parsons
John Palmer
>It is not my intention to be uncivil, I want a real dialogue to
>happen. Nothing constructive or informative can occur in an
>environment of animosity. I will therefore maintain a polite
>conversation on my end and I hope that you or anyone else who posts
>will do the same. I am just telling my story, as well as what my own
>research has uncovered.
>
>
>"J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message news:<ceteh...@news3.newsguy.com>...
>> Spencer wrote:
>>
>> > and most dangerous
>> > of all I was constantly in a speedy euphoria for most of that year and
>> > a half.
>>
>> Did you tell your physician this?
>
>I would go into his office every month and he would ask me how I was
>doing and I would say "great, wonderful, I have never been better!"
>whilst shivering with nervous energy.
(snip to)
>That is just what the problem was: while I was taking it, I did not
>care what was happening to my body, because it was getting me high. I
>trusted my doctor that if I took it as prescribed the chances of
>something bad happening were very small.
Since you mention a 12 step program, I feel I should point out that
you are rationalizing your addiction, and blaming it on your doctor.
You were addicted to a prescription medication; you liked how it felt;
you recognized it was doing bad things to you, but were not
responsible enough to say something to the doctor.
Should you be beaten up with the guilt-flogger for a billion years and
a couple days extra for enjoying the drug effects and hiding the
obvious ill effects? No. You fucked up, the way a lot of people fuck
up. You fucked up the way I might have fucked up in your situation;
I'm not claiming any superiority here. *BUT*... it was *your* fuckup.
Not Adderall's. Not the drug companies. *MAYBE*, maybe part of it was
the doctor. Maybe the doctor should have noticed some stuff wasn't
looking right. Only you and the doctor know this. And if you want to
own your addiction, and understand what it's done to you, you should
dig into that a bit.
But, I'm sorry... right now, what you've said so far is that you got
addicted - not horribly surprising, that's a relatively high dose -
and want to blame someone else and something else. Do they still call
that the blame game in 12 step programs? The fact of the matter is,
you made a choice, one you knew was the wrong one.
Are the meds for ADHD 100%, completely, totally safe, no danger
whatsoever? No. Nothing is. There's a story of a woman who died
because her doctor told her to "drink a lot of water" after she took a
mild overdose of some drug or another; she ruined her electrolyte
balance with too much water. Whether the story is true or an urband
legend, it's not *impossible* to kill yourself by 'drinking a lot of
water'. So, not even water is 'safe' in the end.
You needed to inform your doctor what was going on; maybe your doctor
should have been more proactive, maybe not. I wasn't there, so I don't
know.
(snip to)
>What I am trying to say is that this drug is used recreationally: when
>I was taking the adderall I was at a residential school and someone
>tipped me off that people were stealing it for personal use. The
>point is that you would not put someone on crack no matter what
>studies showed about improvement for this or that condition.
1) lots of useful drugs are used recreationally
2) Yes, doctors would put someone on "crack"... or, at least, the
active ingredient in crack. Cocaine is used as a topical anesthetic.
> Also,
>even if you did you would be extremely careful and not just give every
>practicing physician the right to prescribe it left and right.
Doctors need to stay within their knowledge zone, for sure. But you've
already told us that you liked what it did to you, and ignored what it
was doing to your body for that reason. How much of this was the
doctor not pushing hard enough, and how much was your hiding stuff
from the doctor, to avoid losing your supply, I don't know... but I
doubt that your doctor would have kept you on such a high dose if
you'd voiced some worries about what it was doing to you.
Especially when you go on to say:
> Also, unfortunately the doctor who prescribed the adderall
>(whom I will not name) was and is still a major researcher and is very
>respected in his field. He has been published several times. I am
>sorry but I cannot provide any references to this effect without
>placing the doctor's identity in jeopardy, it would rude of me to do
>so. My point is he was not a "quack" who just went nuts with the
>prescription pad. He was supposed to know what he was doing.
>
>My intent is not to scare people.
No. But it does sound like your (at least unconscious) intent is to
excuse your addiction.
If you want to make things better for people, try to explain how you
felt, and why you didn't take more action to end your addiction
earlier. At what point do you think you should go back in time and
smack your younger self upside the head and say "Don't do that! Tell
the doctor what the drug is doing to you! Trust me!" Why is that a
crucial point?
You do have a good point: it *is* possible to get addicted to
stimulant meds, and it takes more than just a doctor visit to make
sure that it does happen. And, I'm sorry about your experiences; they
were hellish. And, yeah, it *REALLY* sucks that you got caught by that
situation when you were young - you mention 50 year old's teeth, and
"30 years" difference, which means you were really young when this
all started.
It's not fair. You deserved to have a few more years maturity under
your belt before having to deal with that situation. But life isn't
fair. And, in the end, even though the choice wasn't a fair one to
have to make at that age, it *was* your choice. You could have made it
differently.
--
Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten. Like:
Marriage is about love, and the creation of family, and should be
open to all. Legislators who haven't learned this valuable lesson should
stick to fingerpainting, and only be allowed to use the plastic scissors.
J. Clarke
> It is not my intention to be uncivil, I want a real dialogue to
> happen. Nothing constructive or informative can occur in an
> environment of animosity. I will therefore maintain a polite
> conversation on my end and I hope that you or anyone else who posts
> will do the same. I am just telling my story, as well as what my own
> research has uncovered.
>
>
> "J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:<ceteh...@news3.newsguy.com>...
>> Spencer wrote:
>>
>> > Before anyone starts to tell me that I am being insensitive or that I
>> > am not understanding of the pain of ADD please read this next sentence
>> > very carefully. I thought when I was diagnosed with ADD "thank
>> > goodness, I understand my problem now" but the drugs they gave me
>> > opened me up to whole new plane of suffering that I never knew
>> > existed. Some might say I simply had a developing psychotic disorder
>> > that happened to hit when I went on and off the meds but I will
>> > explain very clearly why this is not the case.
>>
>> Having read your post I see no evidence that would show that "this was
>> not the case".
>
> I understand your point, but I must say the following. One counselor
> insisted that I was manic-depressive, but the idea that I had a year
> and a half manic and then two years depressed and psychotic, when most
> manic depressives have cycles on the scale of weeks was ridiculous.
"One conselor"? How many have you seen?
> Especially if I were to assume that being on and off the adderall just
> happened to coincide with these states. With respect to regular
> psychosis (i.e. schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder etc.) which
> manifest themselves usually in late adolescence/early adulthood, I
> find it hard to believe that based on my symptoms on and off the
> adderall that I had anything other than an amphetamine induced
> psychosis. See my references throughout this second posting.
Do you understand that "what you believe" and "what is true" are not always
the same?
>> > Adderall messed me up,
>> > plain and simple. I would use stonger words but nothing could
>> > possibly encapsulate the pain I have been through. Be warned, parts
>> > of my story are not for the faint of heart.
>> >
>> > I was given adderall at 60 mg a day for a year and a half.
>>
>> That is 20mg/day above the maximum recommended daily dosage for treatment
>> of ADHD and is the highest recommended divided dose for treatment of
>> narcolepsy. Something is fishy here.
>
> Adderall is prescribed in 60 mg a day amounts for ADD see the
> following link. Also, in the Physicians desk reference it says you
> can go above 40 mg a day in rare cases for ADD. I weighed about 176
> pounds at the time I was being medicated and I was characterized as a
> "high metabolizer." And if I should have known better than to let my
> doctor go above 40 mg a day, I plead guilty to trusting him.
>
>
<http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/Econtent_HT/drugShowLfts.asp?fname=usp0349.htm&title=Adderall+
2C+Amphetamine+and+Dextroamphetamine&cid=HTDRUG>
Check the FDA-approved prescribing information and not some random web site
and you'll find a different story. Unfortunately for some reason Shire
does not seem to keep that information online for regular Adderall, just
for XR.
As to what you should have known or not known, if your physician prescribed
a dose of aspirin that put you in the hospital, would you blame aspirin or
the physician?
>> > That year
>> > and a half was heaven but I had all the hallmarks of someone severely
>> > addicted to speed (which adderall is by the way, and for anyone who
>> > wants to nitpick the differences between methamphetamine and
>> > dextroamphetime or the difference between street and clinical dosages,
>> > read on because I will address these).
>>
>> Speed is one of the components.
>>
>> > I was gritting my teeth (my
>> > dentist now tells me without exaggeration that my two front teeth are
>> > worn down to what one would normally expect on a fifty year old),
>>
>> So? I grit my teeth with no meds at all.
>
> I am just telling what my dentist told me. Lots of people grit their
> teeth, that is true, mainly in their sleep. But my teeth now look 30
> years older than they should look. Some speed addicts grind their
> teeth down to nubs. See the following link.
>
> http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/meth_effects.shtml
Are your teeth "ground down to nubs"? Did your dentist specifically state
that your condition was unusual even for someone who grinds his teeth?
>> > I
>> > lost weight,
>>
>> Which is not a symptom of being "severely addicted to speed".
>
> It is one characteristic of a speed addict. This is why they
> regularly suffer from weight loss and malnutrition. Also adderall was
> once a diet pill called obetrol. See the following link.
>
> http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/meth_effects.shtml
Now let's see, you took something that is known to cause weight loss and you
lost weight. How does that equate to being "severely addicted to speed"?
>> > my heart was running high constantly
>>
>> How high?
>
> Not sure but my father felt my heartbeat at one point and as a runner
> who regularly checks his own he characterized it as extremely fast.
It was "extremely fast" _once_ according your father but you don't have a
number?
>> > and most dangerous
>> > of all I was constantly in a speedy euphoria for most of that year and
>> > a half.
>>
>> Did you tell your physician this?
>
> I would go into his office every month and he would ask me how I was
> doing and I would say "great, wonderful, I have never been better!"
> whilst shivering with nervous energy. It is just like the bad old
> days of the early 1900s, when cough syrup contained obscene amounts of
> cocaine. The person would take it, and they would feel better... for
> a while.
That's all you would say "great, wonderful, never been better"? And he
wouldn't press you for details?
>> Read this next sentence very carefully. I TOOK THE ADDERALL
>> > AS PRESCRIBED no more no less.
>>
>> And why did you take it if you didn't like what it was doing to you?
>
> That is just what the problem was: while I was taking it, I did not
> care what was happening to my body, because it was getting me high.
Were you aware at the time that it was getting you high? Did you tell your
doctor that it was getting you high?
> I
> trusted my doctor that if I took it as prescribed the chances of
> something bad happening were very small.
>
>>
>> > Once my doctor realized what was going on he pulled me off of it cold
>> > turkey whilst muttering something about neurotoxicity.
>>
>> What did he mutter, exactly?
>
> I don't remember more than that he said he was convinced there were
> neurotoxic effects at work. I was going through an intense withdrawal
> at the time.
Why were you "going through an intense withdrawal" at the time if you were
taking it exactly as prescribed and he had not yet "pulled you off of it
cold turkey"?
>> > This when the
>> > real hell began. I was consumed with grief and despair and despite
>> > what everyone was telling me, it did not go away. At the time of this
>> > writing I will be going on three years since they pulled me off of it
>> > and it still has not gone away. It is always just beneath the
>> > surface. I have just had to learn to live with it there. Believe me,
>> > I wish I were kidding.
>>
>> Pity. But how is it that so few others experience this?
>
> You can believe me or not believe me. All I am doing is telling my
> story. Also I am not the only one. Like I said in my original post
> there are more people with stories similar to mine who have filled out
> experience reports on www.erowid.org/experiences (go to the
> amphetamines section) not to mention the people I have met in
> Narcotics Anonymous. As of this posting I have plans to get all the
> adverse reaction reports with respect to adderall that the FDA has
> received under the Freedom of Information Act.
I believe that you believe this. As for "erowid", again how many who had
"experiences similar to yours" took dosages as high as yours?
>> > For the next two years my mind fell apart. There is no other way to
>> > describe it. I was punching myself until I saw lights, putting out
>> > cigarretes on myself (most understandably I began to smoke),
>> > interrupting my normal self mid-sentence so my paranoid side could
>> > tell it to shut up and staring for hours on end at various blank walls
>> > around my house. One psychologist who interviewed and tested me
>> > offered to hospitalize me against my will even though I was legally an
>> > adult at this time (my parents would not sign the papers thank
>> > goodness).
>>
>> He "offered to hospitalize you against your will"? Interesting wording
>> that. Usually if someone does something to you against your will they
>> don't ask your permission first.
>
> My apologies, that statement was a little confusing. What I was
> trying to say was that my parents were the ones receiving the offer,
> which is why I wrote "my parents would not sign the papers thank
> goodness."
For what reason did he believe that you should be institutionalized? Why
were your parents there at all? You are legally an adult are you not?
>> > Worst of all though was my constant and scary suicidal
>> > ideation. I still get a wave of pleasure at the thought of jumping
>> > off a building or sticking two forks in an electrical socket, because
>> > it would mean my pain would be over.
>> >
>> > Two years and a lot of antipsychotic medication later I was beginning
>> > to become outwardly functional despite the fact that the pain was
>> > still there.
>>
>> They were giving you antipsychotics but you claim that you don't have a
>> psychotic disorder? What's wrong with this picture?
>
> What I mean is not that I never had a psychotic disorder, but that the
> psychotic thinking was brought about as a direct result of the
> adderall.
Is that your opinion or the opinion of the physician who was treating you?
> I was diagnosed by another doctor with amphetamine
> psychosis. It is a well documented disorder in speed addicts that
> occurs as a direct result of prolonged amphetamine intoxication. It
> is sometimes clinically indistinguishable from paranoid schizophrenia,
> and is treated with antipsychotics. See the following links.
How many doctors did you see for this psychosis of yours?
> http://www.paihdelinkki.fi/english/faq/faq_aineet_02e.htm
>
> http://www.update-software.com/abstracts/AB003026.htm
Which you believe prove what? That amphetamine abuse can cause psychosis?
If so, big news. That you experienced it from 60mg/day of Adderall? I'm
sorry, but the fact that a condition exists doesn't prove that everyone who
takes the medication gets that condition. Look up "aspirin poisoning".
>> > I eventually came to the decision that I wanted to
>> > escape from it all and I went overseas. I ended up becoming a pothead
>> > for about three months. I then realized I did not want to be a
>> > pothead and came home to the States. Please note that THC (marijuana)
>> > is the only illegal drug I have ever taken, and also note that I took
>> > after the worst of my psychotic stage.
>>
>> In whose judgment was this "after the worst of your psychotic stage"?
>> Yours, or that of the physicians treating you?
>
> Both.
>
>>
>> > Anyways when I got home I got
>> > what addicts call a pink cloud (a period of time after you quit using
>> > during which you feel a warm sense of well being and motivation, sort
>> > of like the eye of a hurricane).
>>
>> And why did that happen if you weren't addicted to anything? Or if you
>> were addicted to marijuana then how did you manage to stop taking it so
>> easily?
>
> I am just telling it how it happened. Quitting the marijuana was a
> piece of cake compared to the adderall... for me anyways.
If it was a "piece of cake" then it was not addiction.
>> > It didn't last but during it I
>> > managed to sign up for two courses at a local university and get a job
>> > as a lab tech. I then had a slight fallback
>>
>> What kind of "fallback"?
>
> My motivation vanished again, and I was beginning to crawl back into
> my shell a little bit.
My motivation vanished and I crawled back into my shell a little bit before
I ever took any medication for ADHD. You can hardly blame this on the
medication.
>> > and ended up seeking
>> > solace in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. I thought everyone would
>> > laugh at me for saying I was addicted to adderall but it was the exact
>> > opposite. I am not the only one there who was messed up by
>> > prescription drugs, even when taken as prescribed. At this point I
>> > would like to point out to the reader that adderall fetches a pretty
>> > penny these days on college campuses. Just google it and you will see
>> > stories about it on the news.
>>
>> So?
>
> What I am trying to say is that this drug is used recreationally:
Nobody denies that. So what?
> when
> I was taking the adderall I was at a residential school and someone
> tipped me off that people were stealing it for personal use.
They were stealing _your_ Adderall?
> The
> point is that you would not put someone on crack no matter what
> studies showed about improvement for this or that condition.
What does "crack" have to do with anything?
> Also,
> even if you did you would be extremely careful and not just give every
> practicing physician the right to prescribe it left and right.
Why not? Every practicing physician has the right to prescribe botulanis
toxin left and right. Of course that's just nerve gas.
Are you now saying that because of your experience Adderall should be
removed from the market? If so, you've come to the wrong shop.
>> > Anyways that is where I am now. But before I wrap up I would like to
>> > point out a few things. Some would argue that adderall and street
>> > speed are two completely different chemicals. This is true and false.
>> > Adderall is a mix of levoamphetamine and dextroamphetamine
>> > stereoisomers, and street speed is USUALLY methamphetamine.
>>
>> Methamphetamine sulfate is one of the components. So what?
>
> See the paragraph below where I respond to why 60 mg a day of adderall
> for a year and a half speaks for itself.
>
>>
>> > But the
>> > point is experienced drug users have trouble telling the difference
>> > not to mention that street speed sometimes IS dextroamphetamine, hence
>> > the slang name "dexies." Some would also argue that steet speed is
>> > taken in higher dosages than adderall. NOT TRUE, methamphetamine in
>> > powder form is 5 to 10 percent pure once it is cut a the dealer level
>> > (for any nitpickers DEA seizures ARE around 20 to 40 percent but that
>> > is at the middleman level) and with the ballpark dose being 400 mg,
>> > this translates to 20 to 40 mg pure amphetamine.
>>
>> And you know this how?
>
> experienced drug users have trouble telling the difference
> http://www.kci.org/meth_info/PowerPoint/PATH/Crystal%20Meth%20Preveiw.pdf
>
> Street speed is 5 to 10 percent pure at the dealer level
> http://www.brookes.ac.uk/health/libra/speed.html!
What does this have to do with anything? The _dose_ in medical terms is the
amount of active ingredient, not the amount of fillers, dyes, shellac, and
whatnot that are used to package it.
> BALLPARK dose of pure amphetamine is 20 to 40 mg
>
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/familyhealth/q_a/pages/1814.html
That's funny, last time I checked "75 to 100 mg" was a bit more than "20 to
40 mg".
>> > I was on 60 mg a day
>> > of adderall for a year and a half. That speaks for itself.
>>
>> In what way does it "speak for itself"? I've been on a much higher dose
>> of
>> DHMO my entire life and I'll die if I stop taking it. Does that also
>> "speak for itself"?
>
> I am not saying that all drugs are bad. But no one in their right
> mind would suggest to someone they cared about that they go on a year
> and a half speed binge. Being under clinical supervision does not
> make a difference in how the drug affects you.
Again there's the matter of your taking 20mg above the maximum recommended
dose.
>> > Crystal
>> > Meth which is smoked and is close to 100 percent purity is a different
>> > story but the point is that the effective doses are not so different
>> > as the doctors and pharmaceuticals would like the public to believe.
>>
>> Again, your source for this information?
>
> with regards to the crystal meth I can cite the following links
> http://www.drugfreehawaii.org/Main/Topics/facts/Fact%20Ice.pdf
> http://www.doitnow.org/pages/101.html
And those show that the "effective dose" of "crystal meth" is less than or
equal to the maximum recommended dose of Adderall where?
>> > And finally for anyone who insists that any of this would surely have
>> > shown up as a disaster on a clinical trial, remember that what
>> > happened to me would not have shown up on a one or maybe even a two
>> > year followup study.
>>
>> Why is it that with all the people on adderall and all the time that has
>> elapsed since it was put on the market nobody has noticed this if it is a
>> "common" story?
>>
>> I am curious as to why you come here and scare people rather than going
>> to a lawyer and possibly getting this medication that you perceive to be
>> dangerous removed from the market.
>
> I don't sue people.
Then what is your objective here?
> A huge settlement wouldn't change a thing for me.
Then don't accept the settlement, go to trial.
> It would just mean I would get paid to keep quiet and I won't do
> that.
If you win at trial you are not required to "keep quiet".
> I did what I should and filled out an FDA Medwatch Form 3500
> (severe adverse reaction report). But I am convinced the FDA has its
> hands tied politically due to a very strong middle class lobby in
> support of ADD.
I'm sorry, but I don't see what "a very strong middle class lobby in support
of ADD" has to do with the safety or lack of same of a specific medication.
> I don't really hate anyone involved or think ADD
> doesn't exist, It's just sad to see that the main ADD/ADHD
> organization CHADD in funded mainly by pharmaceuticals. ( references
> as follows http://ablechild.org/press.htm,
> http://www.docdiller.com/article.php?op=Print&sid=21)
And what percentage of their budget for last year and the year before and
the year before that came from "pharmaceuticals"?
>> > Remember that lots of these studies are on the
>> > scale of 20 weeks and the longest followup I could find looking up
>> > abstracts on medline was 2 years. Also go to
>> > www.erowid.org/experiences and go to the amphetamines section. You
>> > will notice there are about 50 adderall reports with a few stories
>> > similar to mine.
>>
>> How many of those involved doses of less than 40mg? Just of the ones
>> that were "like yours"?
>
> Some of them did not say how much they were taking.
So they could have been taking 50 grams for all you know?
> But many of the
> stories I am referring to were people who took the adderall at
> prescribed dosages.
And how many of those stories were "like yours"? There are few enough
"stories" on that site that you should be able to easily provide a number
here.
> I see no reason why they would lie, and even if
> they were I have heard too many stories similar to mine in Narcotics
> Anonymous.
We have only your testimony on that.
>> > And lastly, adderall was marketed previously under
>> > the name obetrol in the 70's as a diet pill and was pulled off the
>> > market due to safety concerns.
>
> Here is a reference
> http://www.add-adhd-help-center.com/adhd_medication_information.htm
A reference for what? What point are you trying to address with this?
>
>> >
>> > You might ask, am I an alarmist? Yes I am, and with good reason.
>> > Whether it was negliglence, poor science or the pull of the almighty
>> > dollar somebody screwed up, and I will pay for their mistake for the
>> > rest of my life.
>>
>> Why haven't you hired a lawyer and gone after that physician who
>> prescribed you a dose higher than recommended and left you on it for a
>> year and a half without proper follow-up.
>
> Like I said, I don't sue people.
In other words you don't want to take effective action that could bring
about change, you just want to whine on the Internet?
> My family simply does not have the
> energy to go through what would be a highly publicized lawsuit.
How do you know it would be "highly publicized" and how much "energy" do you
think is needed?
> If
> there was a giant cover up on the part of the pharmaceutical company,
> that would be a different story.
If it's not a "cover up" then what new information do you think you are
bringing to this newsgroup?
> The best thing I can do for society
> as a whole is get my story out and let everyone make their own
> decisions.
And you think that by posting to this newsgroup is "getting your story out"?
I suspect that your average high school newspaper has greater circulation
than this newsgroup. (No offense folks, but the notion that every USENET
newsgroup has tens of millions of lurkers who never participate I find to
be rather silly).
> Also, unfortunately the doctor who prescribed the adderall
> (whom I will not name) was and is still a major researcher and is very
> respected in his field.
So what?
> He has been published several times. I am
> sorry but I cannot provide any references to this effect without
> placing the doctor's identity in jeopardy, it would rude of me to do
> so.
Now let's see, he harmed your health and you're worried about being
_polite_?
> My point is he was not a "quack" who just went nuts with the
> prescription pad. He was supposed to know what he was doing.
Google "Charlene Riling". She was diagnosed by a respected researcher at
one of the most respected hospitals at one of the most respected medical
schools in the world. She won.
> My intent is not to scare people.
If your intent is not to scare people and it is not to have a medication
that you perceive as dangerous removed from the market then what exactly is
your intent?
> I do understand though that I am
> going to get a great deal of negative feedback from my post. By all
> means disagree with me, but please be polite, it has taken a lot of
> courage on my part to bare my soul like this. People may be scared,
> confused or enraged by what I have to say but to any who feel this way
> ask yourself this: Would you honestly rather I had kept silent and
> left you to face the dangers uninformed of what this drug can do?
I would rather you prove this in a court of law and get the problem fixed if
there is one than get on USENET and rant and convince people that you are
some kind of lunatic-fringe nutcase. I mean you no offense by this but
that is how you are coming across.
Joe Parsons
out at me...
On 5 Aug 2004 13:43:32 -0700, wick...@gte.net (Spencer) wrote:
[snip]
>I don't sue people. A huge settlement wouldn't change a thing for me.
> It would just mean I would get paid to keep quiet and I won't do
>that. I did what I should and filled out an FDA Medwatch Form 3500
>(severe adverse reaction report). But I am convinced the FDA has its
>hands tied politically due to a very strong middle class lobby in
>support of ADD. I don't really hate anyone involved or think ADD
>doesn't exist, It's just sad to see that the main ADD/ADHD
>organization CHADD in funded mainly by pharmaceuticals. ( references
>as follows http://ablechild.org/press.htm,
>http://www.docdiller.com/article.php?op=Print&sid=21)
You've quoted two sites to support your contention that CHADD (Children and
Adults with Attention Deficit Disorder) is "funded mainly by pharmaceuticals."
The first site, ablechild.org, is an anti-medication organization with a
specific axe to grind. This does not in itself negate what they say, but one
has to consider the source when evaluation the veracity of the information
given.
The second site is one with which I am quite familiar. Lawrence Diller, M.D. of
Walnut Creek is a personal friend of mine. I assisted him in a small way with
the writing of his book, "Running on Ritalin. A Physician Reflects on Children,
Society and Performance in a Pill."
The URL you've provided has this text:
(Letter to Dr. Diller)
Dr. Diller, I want to take issue with your statement that CHADD isn't selling
anything. CHADD's statement that ADD/ADHD is a neurological disease is what they
are selling. Also, I was under the impression that CHADD is funded by the drug
companies making Ritalin, Cylert, etc. and that part of the Ritalin Nation
explosion was due to this funding. I had read one article showing that in the
late 80's or early 90's, large amounts of money were given to CHADD and that
there is a direct correlation between this and the growth of ADD. Even though
correlation is not causation, I found this to be rather compelling evidence.
Drug companies like Ciba-Geigy do not hand out millions of dollars because they
are nice guys. The pens and pads in your office were not given to you by drug
companies because they thought you could not afford them. They are trying to
sell something. I don't think you should consider CHADD to be an impartial
source of info on ADD.
(Diller's response)
I have my problems with CHADD too. However, I think some of your statements are
misleading. When I say the CHADD site isn't selling anything - I meant that
literally. everyone has a right to their ideas. CHADD has simply followed the
lead of the experts they've relied upon and indeed the majority of experts in
the field promote a "neuorobiological" view of ADHD and in the process diminish
all the other contributing factors to children's behavior. However, CHADD is not
monolithic and there are many within the organization that are uncomfortable
with the public stances the leadership has taken. On the local level, CHADD can
provide valuable resource and advocacy support. CHADD did accept $900,000 from
CIBA a few years back and did not make this public which was a grievous error
for which they still suffer. I don't believe the contributions had a major
influence on their position but did make the organization a much more effective
lobbying organization. Those naive days are done. I find it odd defending CHADD.
It's not a cult. It's got some major problems to work out. I'm willing to try to
work with them because they represent so many families and they do have clout in
Washington. I hope that doesn't sound too apologistic but heck I take a moderate
position so I get attacked by CHADD people and people like yourself. Must mean
I'm doing something right.
[end of quoted text]
Neither one of those URLs supports your assertion.
Even Larry Diller's assertion, that CHADD accepted undisclosed donations from
Ciba-Geigy (now Novartis) is incorrect. As a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt corporation,
CHADD has an affirmative responsibility to provide audited financials to the
public. They have complied from the outset. By publishing the
statements--including donations and their sources--they provide what is legally
called "constructive notice" to the world of those donations. No one can
reasonably claim that they did not know of those donations.
The other issue with respect to corporate support of CHADD and other patient
advocacy groups is one of coercion: does C-G's corporate largesse translate to
any sort of "marketing" effort from CHADD to its members? If it did, no one has
been able to demonstrate it. CHADD's stance with respect to treatment and
management of ADHD is support of a "multi-modal" approach. Furthermore, no one
has ever demonstrated that CHADD has ever placed any particular emphasis on the
pharmacological treatment of ADHD over any other modality.
Joe Parsons
Spencer
Hello. You gave me a not necessarily sympathetic, but still civil
response and I thank you.
I just want to make a few things clear. I did not know what being
high was like before I took the adderall. I actually thought I was
getting the high from reading, and doing various academic activities
while I was on the drug (if you go to the erowid experience vaults
www.erowid.org/experiences and sift around in the amphetamines section
many people will say something to the effect of "adderall turns you
into a bookworm"). I do not blame you for your take on the situation
based on what I wrote. But I did not write all the details of my
story on my first posting.
Like I said I thought the adderall was simply doing what it was
supposed to be doing, and that the euphoria which I associated
partially with reading and partially with taking the drug (which my
doctor was well aware of) was simply a side effect. I was sixteen at
the time and my drug experience went only so far as getting drunk with
my best friend once or twice (the pot came 2 years after I went off
the adderall). I did not know what being high meant. If I had, I can
say with certainty things would have been different, as I would have
understood the feeling and known that it was artificial. As it was, I
never realized this. I simply thought that it had enhanced my ability
to think and learn and that I was simply getting happiness and
satisfaction out of it.
My main point is I WAS telling the doctor how "great" (translation:
high out of my mind) I was doing. I never hid anything. The pot is
another story but I acknowledge absolutely no fault whatsoever for
what happened with the adderall. I was 16 years old and I never lied
once about what I was feeling or thinking to my doctor even when he
pulled me off of it and I was desperate to get more. It never even
occured (to me anyway, my parents were getting concerned near the end
of my adderall run) until the withdrawal issues came into play that
anything about the adderall was amiss. I just thought, in all
honesty, that I had just started become a really really naturally
happy person in my late adolescence, due to my blossoming academic
interests.
Lastly, I never said life was supposed to be fair. The reason I am
posting at all is for you, everyone else who has posted and everyone
who is reading this. Maybe what happened to me was a one in a million
side effect. We don't know. But people deserve to know nonetheless.
Spencer
Hi Joe,
You are absolutely right, it was a sloppy reference, and after looking
into it further I found that the name was actually changed from
obetrol to adderall 1994 despite being the exact same formulation. I
cannot find a credible reference about its safety other than anecdotal
reports. Sorry everyone. I would like to assure people however that
I have not gotten my information exclusively from such sites. For
example the physicians desk reference (PDR) states about adderall that
"Tolerance, extreme psychological dependence, and severe social
disability have occurred" see the website
http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Adderall_Tablets.html.
Spencer
John Palmer
>John Palmer <jpal...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message news:<t185h09mk82uf12km...@4ax.com>...
(snip much to get to the main point)
>> No. But it does sound like your (at least unconscious) intent is to
>> excuse your addiction.
>>
>> If you want to make things better for people, try to explain how you
>> felt, and why you didn't take more action to end your addiction
>> earlier. At what point do you think you should go back in time and
>> smack your younger self upside the head and say "Don't do that! Tell
>> the doctor what the drug is doing to you! Trust me!" Why is that a
>> crucial point?
>>
>> You do have a good point: it *is* possible to get addicted to
>> stimulant meds, and it takes more than just a doctor visit to make
>> sure that it does happen.
(snip remainder to start of response - please, use interlaced
responses, and trim irrelevant material, though be careful to preserve
context)
>Hello. You gave me a not necessarily sympathetic, but still civil
>response and I thank you.
>
>I just want to make a few things clear. I did not know what being
>high was like before I took the adderall. I actually thought I was
>getting the high from reading, and doing various academic activities
>while I was on the drug (if you go to the erowid experience vaults
>www.erowid.org/experiences and sift around in the amphetamines section
>many people will say something to the effect of "adderall turns you
>into a bookworm"). I do not blame you for your take on the situation
>based on what I wrote. But I did not write all the details of my
>story on my first posting.
Shrug. See, there's one of two ways to look at this.
Either you *KNOW* it was the adderall that caused your problems, and
thus, you knew, at the time, it was causing you problems, or you
*don't* know that it was the adderall that caused your problems... but
you're still insisting it was.
Either way, you're reporting that you became addicted to adderall
*now*... and you're trying to blame the drug, rather than accepting
responsibility for your own actions.
>
>Like I said I thought the adderall was simply doing what it was
>supposed to be doing, and that the euphoria which I associated
>partially with reading and partially with taking the drug (which my
>doctor was well aware of) was simply a side effect.
And the rapid heartbeat and weight loss, and the fact that you "didn't
care about what it was doing to your body"? I'm sorry... your story
doesn't add up.
There are multiple ways to look at this...
Maybe you embellished your story a bit to make Adderall look worse
than it has a right to, based upon your story. That's dishonesty, and
you've just learned why it's not a good idea.
Maybe you're really bad at communicating exactly how things went down,
but then we don't know what, precisely, can be attributed to adderall
and what can be attributed to other factors.
But, the one thing that I can't discount is that you got addicted,
which is nothing to be inherently ashamed of, but also got trapped in
the addictive mindset of "it's not my fault!" And, in a real sense,
it isn't; there doesn't have to be a "fault" associated with it. But,
it is something that's your responsibility.
And I can't let you wiggle out of that. Because, see, if I did, and if
you *were* fooling yourself, I'd be letting you think the story flew,
and letting you keep fooling yourself. It's a bad scene.
Go back... think about it more. Don't try to convince me, and don't
try to convince yourself. Think about it. Think about what you
absolutely, positively know about your experiences.
--
Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten. Like:
Beauty has a beginning, and an ending, but always lives beyond its span,
in the hearts of many.
Spencer
Hello CK,
Shit happens I guess. Adverse reactions have, however, been reported
in doses as low as 2 mg
(http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Adderall_Tablets.html look up the words "as
low" in your web browser for the exact reference). Like I said in
another posting, maybe what happened to me is a one in a million
thing, maybe it wasn't, but again the ominous thing about it all is
that neither my story nor any of the stories I have read on
www.erowid.org that are similar to mine would have shown up on a
study. "Statistics cannot lie, but the truth they tell you may not be
the truth you think you hear" (semi-Robert Jordan quote for anyone who
reads the Wheel of Time series :-) ).
Also to respond to Emma's comments, I want to take the chance to make
clear my somewhat amorphous stance on ADD and on what medications are
supposed to do. I am not some religious freak who claims it does not
exist as a disease but I do think that the lure of business has caused
doctors to be a little too amorphous themselves in their definition of
it. Barnes and Noble is now full of books claiming there are half a
dozen different types of ADD, and me and my parents used to be the
ones reading those books. Psychology and pychiatry are murky subjects
(even my current doctors will admit this), and putting labels on
things and throwing powerful medications at them is a dangerous habit.
I was convinced I was suffering from an illness when I first stepped
into a psychiatic clinic, but the cure turned out to be a thousand
times worse than the disease.
I am not opposed to medication. Ironically antipsychotic drugs saved
me from a drug induced psychotic disorder. If someone is clawing the
walls, thinking they are Jesus Christ or something like that, they
need help and it is justifiable and moral to use powerful drugs. But
to be prescribing powerful medications (by this I mean drugs that have
low numbers on the schedule rating system, things like zoloft and
prozac are somewhat tame and thus higher up) to people who are
otherwise healthy mentally is playing with fire. I am not alone in
saying this, there is a whole minority body of opinion amongst mental
health professionals that things are out of control. Look up Dr.
Baughman on google and go to his web site for starters (he is a little
draconian in his definition of what constitutes a disease, but what
the hey).
Lastly, just what constitutes an unsafe drug? A one in a million
chance of ending up like me? One in a thousand? One in a hundred?
You will understand, of course, that after going psychotic for several
years I am not quite ready to hear someone say that "the needs of the
many outweigh the needs of the few."
Just food for thought. Okay, I am finished.
Spencer
Joe Parsons
>Joe Parsons <as...@yankeemedia.n3t> wrote in message news:<cv75h0ds38o7d0aof...@4ax.com>...
>> On 5 Aug 2004 13:43:32 -0700, wick...@gte.net (Spencer) wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> >> > And lastly, adderall was marketed previously under
>> >> > the name obetrol in the 70's as a diet pill and was pulled off the
>> >> > market due to safety concerns.
>> >
>> >Here is a reference
>> >http://www.add-adhd-help-center.com/adhd_medication_information.htm
>>
>> Just a couple of quick things:
>>
>> First, it's always risky to trust sites like the above as reliable sources of
>> infomation. This one is marketing an "alternative" for treating ADHD.
>>
>> Second, where do you get the information that Obetrol was removed from the
>> market (by Rexar) because of "safety concerns?"
>>
>> Joe Parsons
>
>Hi Joe,
>
>You are absolutely right, it was a sloppy reference,
It's not that it was sloppy. It was irrelevant.
>and after looking
>into it further I found that the name was actually changed from
>obetrol to adderall 1994 despite being the exact same formulation.
That's true. The formulation for Obetrol was purchased from Rexar by Richwood
and received FDA approval for use in treating ADHD in 1996. It has been
marketed since that time as Adderall.
>I
>cannot find a credible reference about its safety other than anecdotal
>reports.
How about *some* reference? Given the plethora of people out there with various
anti-medication references, doesn't it seem reasonable to expect that we'd see
*something* about "safety concerns" of Obetrol?
>Sorry everyone. I would like to assure people however that
>I have not gotten my information exclusively from such sites.
Where _did_ you get your information?
>For
>example the physicians desk reference (PDR) states about adderall that
>"Tolerance, extreme psychological dependence, and severe social
>disability have occurred" see the website
>http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Adderall_Tablets.html.
It's better to quote that in context:
DRUG ABUSE AND DEPENDENCE
Dextroamphetamine sulfate is a Schedule II controlled substance.
Amphetamines have been extensively abused. Tolerance, extreme psychological
dependence, and severe social disability have occurred. There are reports of
patients who have increased the dosage to many times that recommended. Abrupt
cessation following prolonged high dosage administration results in extreme
fatigue and mental depression; changes are also noted on the sleep EEG.
Manifestations of chronic intoxication with amphetamines include severe
dermatoses, marked insomnia, irritability, hyperactivity, and personality
changes. The most severe manifestation of chronic intoxication is psychosis,
often clinically indistinguishable from schizophrenia. This is rare with oral
amphetamines.
[end of quote]
It is important to draw a distinction between therapeutic use of a medication
and ABuse of the same. In the decade-plus that several of us have been around
this newsgroup, we've seen dozens of people (usually with an agenda) pointing to
the fact that "Ritalin/Adderall/Dexedrine" is a Schedule II Controlled
Substance. Cocaine is also a Schedule II Controlled Substance. (Both true
statements) Therefore, Ritalin/Adderall/Dexedrine must be just like cocaine.
It is a good example of a particular logical fallacy whose name escapes me at
the moment (help me, John Palmer!); but the conclusion does not follow logically
from the two assertions.
Joe Parsons
Velvet Elvis
> I was given adderall at 60 mg a day for a year and a half. That year
> and a half was heaven but I had all the hallmarks of someone severely
> addicted to speed (which adderall is by the way, and for anyone who
> wants to nitpick the differences between methamphetamine and
It was all in your head. It's not possiable to become addicted at that
dose.
> dextroamphetime or the difference between street and clinical dosages,
> read on because I will address these). I was gritting my teeth (my
> dentist now tells me without exaggeration that my two front teeth are
> worn down to what one would normally expect on a fifty year old), I
I hear ya there. It's not just the grining. Most stims cause drymouth
which in turn makes the mouth as septic as fuck. You need to brush your
teeth three times a day if you wanna keep 'em while on stims. Nobody told
me that until I was looking at $5k worth of dental work. Sitting in a
dentist's chair for the hour and half required for a root canal isn't made
any more fun by the fact that I have trouble staying still for ten minutes.
> lost weight, my heart was running high constantly and most dangerous
> of all I was constantly in a speedy euphoria for most of that year and
> a half. Read this next sentence very carefully. I TOOK THE ADDERALL
> AS PRESCRIBED no more no less.
Your results were extremely atypical. I think the safe assumption is that
there is something atypical with your neurochemistry. Your experience is
not typical of 99% of ADD patiants. Why didn't you tell your doc you were
feeling like this anyway? How/why was this allowed to go on for a year and
a half?
> Once my doctor realized what was going on he pulled me off of it cold
> turkey whilst muttering something about neurotoxicity. This when the
> real hell began. I was consumed with grief and despair and despite
> what everyone was telling me, it did not go away. At the time of this
> writing I will be going on three years since they pulled me off of it
> and it still has not gone away. It is always just beneath the
> surface. I have just had to learn to live with it there. Believe me,
> I wish I were kidding.
It ain't the drugs. Many mental illnesses first manifest themselves when
the individual afflicted is in their early to mid twenties. May I ask how
old you are? I think it's far more likely that some condition unrelated to
ADD popped up and started fucking with your head during the time you were
taking the adderal.
> For the next two years my mind fell apart. There is no other way to
> describe it. I was punching myself until I saw lights, putting out
> cigarretes on myself (most understandably I began to smoke),
> interrupting my normal self mid-sentence so my paranoid side could
> tell it to shut up and staring for hours on end at various blank walls
> around my house. One psychologist who interviewed and tested me
> offered to hospitalize me against my will even though I was legally an
> adult at this time (my parents would not sign the papers thank
> goodness). Worst of all though was my constant and scary suicidal
> ideation. I still get a wave of pleasure at the thought of jumping
> off a building or sticking two forks in an electrical socket, because
> it would mean my pain would be over.
This has nothing to do with ADD or the side effects of adderal. It just
doesn't work that way.
> of like the eye of a hurricane). It didn't last but during it I
> managed to sign up for two courses at a local university and get a job
> as a lab tech. I then had a slight fallback and ended up seeking
> solace in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. I thought everyone would
> laugh at me for saying I was addicted to adderall but it was the exact
> opposite. I am not the only one there who was messed up by
I'm glad you found somthing that helped you.
> Anyways that is where I am now. But before I wrap up I would like to
> point out a few things. Some would argue that adderall and street
> speed are two completely different chemicals. This is true and false.
I wouldn't argue that. Aphetimines are amphetimines no matter where you get
'em. I self medicated with crystal meth for a while before being
diagnosed.
>
> You might ask, am I an alarmist? Yes I am, and with good reason.
> Whether it was negliglence, poor science or the pull of the almighty
> dollar somebody screwed up, and I will pay for their mistake for the
> rest of my life.
You'll pay until your condition is correctly diagnoed and treated. No pill
can do to you what you describe. Your body did this to itself. It sucks,
but that's how it works.
--
MYTHOLOGY, n. The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its
origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from
the true accounts which it invents later.
-Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.
Velvet Elvis
> "CK" <core.ne...@no.spam.remove.addbalance.com> wrote in message
> news:<10h4vdg...@corp.supernews.com>...
>> I am not discounting your experience, but I took 60mg of Adderall for
>> about 5 years without experiencing anything like what you have described.
>> I now take 40 mg (less stressful job), for another 5 years.
>>
>> I have had sleep problems but never any "speedy feeling." I can get that
>> with half a cup of Victor Allen coffee. I concur with J. Clarke's and
>> Emma Anne's comments / questions.
>>
>> CK
>
> Hello CK,
>
> Shit happens I guess. Adverse reactions have, however, been reported
> in doses as low as 2 mg
> (http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Adderall_Tablets.html look up the words "as
> low" in your web browser for the exact reference). Like I said in
> another posting, maybe what happened to me is a one in a million
> thing, maybe it wasn't, but again the ominous thing about it all is
> that neither my story nor any of the stories I have read on
> www.erowid.org that are similar to mine would have shown up on a
> study. "Statistics cannot lie, but the truth they tell you may not be
> the truth you think you hear" (semi-Robert Jordan quote for anyone who
> reads the Wheel of Time series :-) ).
FWIW, people die from allegic reactions to asprin every year. It sucks to
be them, but saying that asprin is bad because of a few experiences is
patently absurd.
Velvet Elvis
> They were giving you antipsychotics but you claim that you don't have a
> psychotic disorder? What's wrong with this picture?
To be fair, anti-psychotics are commonly used for many non-psychotic
conditions, anxiety disorders in particular. I take serequel to make my
OCD shut and leave me alone long enough for me to fall asleep.
Velvet Elvis
> I understand your point, but I must say the following. One counselor
> insisted that I was manic-depressive, but the idea that I had a year
> and a half manic and then two years depressed and psychotic, when most
> manic depressives have cycles on the scale of weeks was ridiculous.
> Especially if I were to assume that being on and off the adderall just
> happened to coincide with these states. With respect to regular
> psychosis (i.e. schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder etc.) which
> manifest themselves usually in late adolescence/early adulthood, I
> find it hard to believe that based on my symptoms on and off the
> adderall that I had anything other than an amphetamine induced
> psychosis. See my references throughout this second posting.
I've known a couple of bi-polar folks who were on cycles spaning years.
They did respond favorably to mood stabalizers such as lithium and
depakote. Your experience with adderal also sound a lot like the chemicaly
induced mania which might occur in a person with bi-polar mood disorder who
mistakenly take large doses of CNS stimulants for a while. If you want to
quit feeling like you do right now, it would behove you to research this
possibility.
>> Which is not a symptom of being "severely addicted to speed".
>
> It is one characteristic of a speed addict. This is why they
> regularly suffer from weight loss and malnutrition. Also adderall was
> once a diet pill called obetrol. See the following link.
It is an appitite suppressant. The presence of this symptom does not
indicate addiction, however. As you noted, it is also used as a diet drug.
How would it be useful as a diet drug if it didn't stop you from feeling
hungry? Would you maintain that every person who took it for weight loss
is an addict because the med caused them to loose weight?
>
>> How high?
>
> Not sure but my father felt my heartbeat at one point and as a runner
> who regularly checks his own he characterized it as extremely fast.
Ever have you thyroid checked by any chance?
> That is just what the problem was: while I was taking it, I did not
> care what was happening to my body, because it was getting me high. I
> trusted my doctor that if I took it as prescribed the chances of
> something bad happening were very small.
I still maintain that the "high" you speak of is chemicaly induced mania.
Sure, it has anti-depressant properties, even mild euphroigenic ones, but
nothing to the degree that it could change thought patterns to the degree
you describe.
> You can believe me or not believe me. All I am doing is telling my
> story. Also I am not the only one. Like I said in my original post
> there are more people with stories similar to mine who have filled out
> experience reports on www.erowid.org/experiences (go to the
> amphetamines section) not to mention the people I have met in
> Narcotics Anonymous. As of this posting I have plans to get all the
> adverse reaction reports with respect to adderall that the FDA has
> received under the Freedom of Information Act.
I'm not sure it's considered an adverse reaction if a doc misdiagnoses a
patiant and then prescibes them a medication that makes their actual
condition worse. It sucks, but I doubt it's an adverse reaction.
J. Clarke
> "CK" <core.ne...@no.spam.remove.addbalance.com> wrote in message
> news:<10h4vdg...@corp.supernews.com>...
>> I am not discounting your experience, but I took 60mg of Adderall for
>> about 5 years without experiencing anything like what you have described.
>> I now take 40 mg (less stressful job), for another 5 years.
>>
>> I have had sleep problems but never any "speedy feeling." I can get that
>> with half a cup of Victor Allen coffee. I concur with J. Clarke's and
>> Emma Anne's comments / questions.
>>
>> CK
>
> Hello CK,
>
> Shit happens I guess. Adverse reactions have, however, been reported
> in doses as low as 2 mg
> (http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Adderall_Tablets.html look up the words "as
> low" in your web browser for the exact reference).
There are people who will die without prompt medical attention simply from
being in the same room with a bowl of strawberries. Yes, some people have
adverse reactions to low doses. If that's a reason for alarmism then we
should ban strawberries. And in context they were referring to toxicity.
> Like I said in
> another posting, maybe what happened to me is a one in a million
> thing, maybe it wasn't, but again the ominous thing about it all is
> that neither my story nor any of the stories I have read on
> www.erowid.org that are similar to mine would have shown up on a
> study.
Why not? If you can find "www.erowid.org" then so can any researcher.
> "Statistics cannot lie, but the truth they tell you may not be
> the truth you think you hear" (semi-Robert Jordan quote for anyone who
> reads the Wheel of Time series :-) ).
So?
> Also to respond to Emma's comments, I want to take the chance to make
> clear my somewhat amorphous stance on ADD and on what medications are
> supposed to do. I am not some religious freak who claims it does not
> exist as a disease but I do think that the lure of business has caused
> doctors to be a little too amorphous themselves in their definition of
> it.
You are welcome to think whatever you want to.
> Barnes and Noble is now full of books claiming there are half a
> dozen different types of ADD, and me and my parents used to be the
> ones reading those books.
Many authors claim many things. What the authors of mass-market books
believe and what the scientific and medical community believe are not
necessarily the same. Some of those authors have quite the opposite view,
that ADHD doesn't exist and the meds are a horror ranking with the Nazi
death camps.
The one book that _counts_ is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
> Psychology and pychiatry are murky subjects
> (even my current doctors will admit this), and putting labels on
> things and throwing powerful medications at them is a dangerous habit.
So we should _not_ put labels on things and nonetheless "throw dangerous
medications at them"? Seems to me that it's a bad idea to medicate someone
for a condition that doesn't even have a name. Or we should put labels on
things and not "throw dangerous medications at them"? Seems to me that
being diagnosed with cancer and then not treated with the dangerous
medications necessary to achieve remission is kind of pointless. Or should
we neither label nor medicate? In that case why not just abolish the
practice of medicine altogether?
> I was convinced I was suffering from an illness when I first stepped
> into a psychiatic clinic, but the cure turned out to be a thousand
> times worse than the disease.
For you, and quite possibly your life would have been no different if you
had not gone into that clinic.
> I am not opposed to medication. Ironically antipsychotic drugs saved
> me from a drug induced psychotic disorder. If someone is clawing the
> walls, thinking they are Jesus Christ or something like that, they
> need help and it is justifiable and moral to use powerful drugs. But
> to be prescribing powerful medications (by this I mean drugs that have
> low numbers on the schedule rating system, things like zoloft and
> prozac are somewhat tame and thus higher up)
Huh? In case you are not aware of it the "schedule rating sysem" is
developed on the basis of perception of abuse potential, not "power".
There are many very powerful medications that are not "controlled
substances" because they have no "abuse potential". For example, botulanis
toxin is incredibly powerful but it has no abuse potential because you only
abuse it once and then you are dead.
> to people who are
> otherwise healthy mentally is playing with fire. I am not alone in
> saying this, there is a whole minority body of opinion amongst mental
> health professionals that things are out of control. Look up Dr.
> Baughman on google and go to his web site for starters (he is a little
> draconian in his definition of what constitutes a disease, but what
> the hey).
Baughman is either a scientologist or a fellow-traveller of that
organization. Any time you see any doctor coming out against psychiatry
look for a connection to scientology or CCHR--if he has been published in
magazines of either organization then he is automatically suspect. And if
you think this is a slam on a valid religion, learn something about
scientology--its equivalent to the Bible is subtitled "The Modern Science
of Mental Health" and one of their core beliefs involves space aliens and
psychiatrists.
> Lastly, just what constitutes an unsafe drug? A one in a million
> chance of ending up like me? One in a thousand? One in a hundred?
> You will understand, of course, that after going psychotic for several
> years I am not quite ready to hear someone say that "the needs of the
> many outweigh the needs of the few."
Then you _do_ favor banning peanuts and strawberries?
> Just food for thought. Okay, I am finished.
>
> Spencer
--
Velvet Elvis
>> Barnes and Noble is now full of books claiming there are half a
>> dozen different types of ADD, and me and my parents used to be the
>> ones reading those books.
> The one book that _counts_ is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
I gotta disagree here. The DSM is about as irrelevant as it gets. It
defines conditions according to behavioral symptoms and nothing
physiological. SPECT and PET scans of mental illness are going to turn the
DSM on its ear before too much longer. How long has it been since
homosexuality was a DSM listed disorder btw?
Emma Chase VanCott
: Before anyone starts to tell me that I am being insensitive or that I
: am not understanding of the pain of ADD please read this next sentence
: very carefully. I thought when I was diagnosed with ADD "thank
: goodness, I understand my problem now" but the drugs they gave me
: opened me up to whole new plane of suffering that I never knew
: existed. Some might say I simply had a developing psychotic disorder
: that happened to hit when I went on and off the meds but I will
: explain very clearly why this is not the case. Adderall messed me up,
: plain and simple. I would use stonger words but nothing could
: possibly encapsulate the pain I have been through. Be warned, parts
: of my story are not for the faint of heart.
: I was given adderall at 60 mg a day for a year and a half. That year
The maximum dose is 30 mg/day!
Emma
Spencer
I called the FDA and they said that www.erowid.org is not official
enough to take into consideration. I find this very frustrating
because even if it is anecdotal there is no reason not to use it as a
way to test the winds.
>
> > "Statistics cannot lie, but the truth they tell you may not be
> > the truth you think you hear" (semi-Robert Jordan quote for anyone who
> > reads the Wheel of Time series :-) ).
>
> So?
>
> > Also to respond to Emma's comments, I want to take the chance to make
> > clear my somewhat amorphous stance on ADD and on what medications are
> > supposed to do. I am not some religious freak who claims it does not
> > exist as a disease but I do think that the lure of business has caused
> > doctors to be a little too amorphous themselves in their definition of
> > it.
>
> You are welcome to think whatever you want to.
>
> > Barnes and Noble is now full of books claiming there are half a
> > dozen different types of ADD, and me and my parents used to be the
> > ones reading those books.
>
> Many authors claim many things. What the authors of mass-market books
> believe and what the scientific and medical community believe are not
> necessarily the same. Some of those authors have quite the opposite view,
> that ADHD doesn't exist and the meds are a horror ranking with the Nazi
> death camps.
>
> The one book that _counts_ is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
That is exactly my point. There is so much mass marketing around ADD
that the average person and perhaps the average doctor (notice I said
perhaps) are getting confused about just what ADD is.
>
> > Psychology and pychiatry are murky subjects
> > (even my current doctors will admit this), and putting labels on
> > things and throwing powerful medications at them is a dangerous habit.
>
> So we should _not_ put labels on things and nonetheless "throw dangerous
> medications at them"? Seems to me that it's a bad idea to medicate someone
> for a condition that doesn't even have a name. Or we should put labels on
> things and not "throw dangerous medications at them"? Seems to me that
> being diagnosed with cancer and then not treated with the dangerous
> medications necessary to achieve remission is kind of pointless. Or should
> we neither label nor medicate? In that case why not just abolish the
> practice of medicine altogether?
ADD is not cancer. Remember I was diagnosed myself with it. You
would not give chemotherapy to someone who was perfectly healthy for
the most part. That is an extreme example, but all I am saying is
that these stimulants affect many people many different ways but as
CNS stimulants deserve all the respect you can give them. Like I have
said many times I am just telling my story.
>
> > I was convinced I was suffering from an illness when I first stepped
> > into a psychiatic clinic, but the cure turned out to be a thousand
> > times worse than the disease.
>
> For you, and quite possibly your life would have been no different if you
> had not gone into that clinic.
Like I said in another posting I was diagnosed after this whole mess
with amphetamine psychosis, which is a psychotic disorder brought
about directly by the use of amphetamines.
>
> > I am not opposed to medication. Ironically antipsychotic drugs saved
> > me from a drug induced psychotic disorder. If someone is clawing the
> > walls, thinking they are Jesus Christ or something like that, they
> > need help and it is justifiable and moral to use powerful drugs. But
> > to be prescribing powerful medications (by this I mean drugs that have
> > low numbers on the schedule rating system, things like zoloft and
> > prozac are somewhat tame and thus higher up)
>
> Huh? In case you are not aware of it the "schedule rating sysem" is
> developed on the basis of perception of abuse potential, not "power".
> There are many very powerful medications that are not "controlled
> substances" because they have no "abuse potential". For example, botulanis
> toxin is incredibly powerful but it has no abuse potential because you only
> abuse it once and then you are dead.
I was making a loose connection between abuse potential and power in
psychotropic drugs, not talking about botox. Throw me a bone here.
>
> > to people who are
> > otherwise healthy mentally is playing with fire. I am not alone in
> > saying this, there is a whole minority body of opinion amongst mental
> > health professionals that things are out of control. Look up Dr.
> > Baughman on google and go to his web site for starters (he is a little
> > draconian in his definition of what constitutes a disease, but what
> > the hey).
>
> Baughman is either a scientologist or a fellow-traveller of that
> organization. Any time you see any doctor coming out against psychiatry
> look for a connection to scientology or CCHR--if he has been published in
> magazines of either organization then he is automatically suspect. And if
> you think this is a slam on a valid religion, learn something about
> scientology--its equivalent to the Bible is subtitled "The Modern Science
> of Mental Health" and one of their core beliefs involves space aliens and
> psychiatrists.
>
> > Lastly, just what constitutes an unsafe drug? A one in a million
> > chance of ending up like me? One in a thousand? One in a hundred?
> > You will understand, of course, that after going psychotic for several
> > years I am not quite ready to hear someone say that "the needs of the
> > many outweigh the needs of the few."
>
> Then you _do_ favor banning peanuts and strawberries?
Please do not turn me into an extremist. If I had a magic wand, I
would not make adderall disappear off the face of the earth, maybe it
helps some people, I don't know. But my story and a few others
deserve to be heard and just because people do not like hearing them
is no reason crawl back into my shell.
Joe Parsons
wrote:
>J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>> Barnes and Noble is now full of books claiming there are half a
>>> dozen different types of ADD, and me and my parents used to be the
>>> ones reading those books.
>
>> The one book that _counts_ is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
>
>I gotta disagree here. The DSM is about as irrelevant as it gets. It
>defines conditions according to behavioral symptoms and nothing
>physiological. SPECT and PET scans of mental illness are going to turn the
>DSM on its ear before too much longer. How long has it been since
>homosexuality was a DSM listed disorder btw?
It was removed from DSM-II in late 1973.
Spencer
Hello Elvis,
A great deal of what you have said has gone through my head already.
But I will give you my reasons why I maintain that my current
condition (diagnosed as amphetamine psychosis by my current doctor)
was in fact caused by the amphetamines (see a another post I put to
one of your queries). By the way, to answer your question, I am
currenty going on 21 years old, and I started taking the adderall at
age 16, stopped around 18.
Spencer
Spencer
Hello Elvis,
Thank you for your civility. As you can see on the message board it
is in precious supply. You have some points and I want to address
them.
I did consider the idea that I had just become bi-polar for a while,
but what are the chances that my cycles would coincide down to the day
I stopped taking the adderall. By the way, just for informational
purposes, I am currently on Abilify, Depakote and Zoloft. I have not
had my thyroid checked but I will mention it to my regular doc when I
see him next.
But, everything aside, this is what I know. The adderall made me feel
good, too good. I went into withdrawal after I was pulled off the
adderall. I am now diagnosed with amphetamine psychosis. Anyone can
make of that what they will (this paragraph is directed mainly at
everyone in general).
Spencer
J. Clarke
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>>> Barnes and Noble is now full of books claiming there are half a
>>> dozen different types of ADD, and me and my parents used to be the
>>> ones reading those books.
>
>> The one book that _counts_ is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
>
> I gotta disagree here. The DSM is about as irrelevant as it gets. It
> defines conditions according to behavioral symptoms and nothing
> physiological. SPECT and PET scans of mental illness are going to turn
> the
> DSM on its ear before too much longer. How long has it been since
> homosexuality was a DSM listed disorder btw?
When you persuade the medical community to start using some other
publication to define the diagnostic criteria for mental disorders, _then_
the DSM will cease to "count" and become "irrelevant".
If in fact SPECT and PET scans are found to be useful tools for the
diagnosis of mental disorders then either they will be added to the DSM
criteria or the conditions for which they are found to be diagnostic will
be reclassified as neurological or put in some other category outside the
scope of DSM.
What does the fact that at one time homosexuality was considered to be a
mental illness have to do with anything? Time passes, social norms change,
research is conducted, the medical community learns, the classifications
change, some conditions get added, some removed, some combined, some split
apart, new diagnostic criteria are added, old ones that are found to be
erroneous are discarded--that's why it gets revised periodically.
Would you rather have every psychiatrist in the country shooting from the
hip with no standard guide? Or would you prefer that they use a different
publication? If so, what?
Spencer
This is a posting to everyone in general. Like I said before no
constructive thought can happen in an environment of animosity. For
those of you who have agreed or disagreed, respectfully and without
guile, you know who you are and I thank you. From this point on, any
responses that are intended to bait or be disrespectful I will not
respond to.
Emma Anne
> > It is one characteristic of a speed addict. This is why they
> > regularly suffer from weight loss and malnutrition. Also adderall was
> > once a diet pill called obetrol. See the following link.
>
> It is an appitite suppressant. The presence of this symptom does not
> indicate addiction, however. As you noted, it is also used as a diet drug.
> How would it be useful as a diet drug if it didn't stop you from feeling
> hungry? Would you maintain that every person who took it for weight loss
> is an addict because the med caused them to loose weight?
Actually, it was a crummy diet aid. Most people don't lose their
appetite or any weight on it, especially adults. This is not to say it
doesn't sometimes happen, but I wanted to clarify that.
Emma Anne
> Hello Elvis,
> Thank you for your civility. As you can see on the message board it
> is in precious supply.
Nonsense. Most of us have been quite civil. "Civil" doesn't equal
"agreeing with your interpretation."
J. Clarke
The FDA does not sponsor research as far as I know so their opinion as to
waht is "official enough" is irrelevant to the issue of whether a
researcher would be able to find the information. No government agency is
going to take action on the basis of information published on a Web
site--at most they'll investigate but even there they'll need a lot more
than what is at that site.
> I find this very frustrating
> because even if it is anecdotal there is no reason not to use it as a
> way to test the winds.
What do you mean by "test the winds"?
>> > "Statistics cannot lie, but the truth they tell you may not be
>> > the truth you think you hear" (semi-Robert Jordan quote for anyone who
>> > reads the Wheel of Time series :-) ).
>>
>> So?
>>
>> > Also to respond to Emma's comments, I want to take the chance to make
>> > clear my somewhat amorphous stance on ADD and on what medications are
>> > supposed to do. I am not some religious freak who claims it does not
>> > exist as a disease but I do think that the lure of business has caused
>> > doctors to be a little too amorphous themselves in their definition of
>> > it.
>>
>> You are welcome to think whatever you want to.
>>
>> > Barnes and Noble is now full of books claiming there are half a
>> > dozen different types of ADD, and me and my parents used to be the
>> > ones reading those books.
>>
>> Many authors claim many things. What the authors of mass-market books
>> believe and what the scientific and medical community believe are not
>> necessarily the same. Some of those authors have quite the opposite
>> view, that ADHD doesn't exist and the meds are a horror ranking with the
>> Nazi death camps.
>>
>> The one book that _counts_ is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
>
> That is exactly my point. There is so much mass marketing around ADD
> that the average person and perhaps the average doctor (notice I said
> perhaps) are getting confused about just what ADD is.
You should not be going to "the average doctor" to get treatment for mental
conditions, you should be going to a psychiatrist or neurologist, and any
good one most assuredly does know what book to use as a diagnostic
reference.
>> > Psychology and pychiatry are murky subjects
>> > (even my current doctors will admit this), and putting labels on
>> > things and throwing powerful medications at them is a dangerous habit.
>>
>> So we should _not_ put labels on things and nonetheless "throw dangerous
>> medications at them"? Seems to me that it's a bad idea to medicate
>> someone
>> for a condition that doesn't even have a name. Or we should put labels
>> on
>> things and not "throw dangerous medications at them"? Seems to me that
>> being diagnosed with cancer and then not treated with the dangerous
>> medications necessary to achieve remission is kind of pointless. Or
>> should
>> we neither label nor medicate? In that case why not just abolish the
>> practice of medicine altogether?
>
> ADD is not cancer.
So? Adderall is not chemotherapy either.
> Remember I was diagnosed myself with it. You
> would not give chemotherapy to someone who was perfectly healthy for
> the most part. That is an extreme example, but all I am saying is
> that these stimulants affect many people many different ways but as
> CNS stimulants deserve all the respect you can give them. Like I have
> said many times I am just telling my story.
If you just told your story without looking to blame the medication then
that claim would be much more credible.
>> > I was convinced I was suffering from an illness when I first stepped
>> > into a psychiatic clinic, but the cure turned out to be a thousand
>> > times worse than the disease.
>>
>> For you, and quite possibly your life would have been no different if you
>> had not gone into that clinic.
>
> Like I said in another posting I was diagnosed after this whole mess
> with amphetamine psychosis, which is a psychotic disorder brought
> about directly by the use of amphetamines.
Actually by the abuse of amphetamines.
>> > I am not opposed to medication. Ironically antipsychotic drugs saved
>> > me from a drug induced psychotic disorder. If someone is clawing the
>> > walls, thinking they are Jesus Christ or something like that, they
>> > need help and it is justifiable and moral to use powerful drugs. But
>> > to be prescribing powerful medications (by this I mean drugs that have
>> > low numbers on the schedule rating system, things like zoloft and
>> > prozac are somewhat tame and thus higher up)
>>
>> Huh? In case you are not aware of it the "schedule rating sysem" is
>> developed on the basis of perception of abuse potential, not "power".
>> There are many very powerful medications that are not "controlled
>> substances" because they have no "abuse potential". For example,
>> botulanis toxin is incredibly powerful but it has no abuse potential
>> because you only abuse it once and then you are dead.
>
> I was making a loose connection between abuse potential and power in
> psychotropic drugs, not talking about botox. Throw me a bone here.
No. Thorazine is a very powerful psychotropic medication but it is not a
controlled substance. The fact that something has abuse potential does not
mean that it will always be abused. Most ADDers have the same reaction
that I do to claims that the medications we take are certain to addict
us--"If I'm an addict then why do I keep forgetting to take it?"
Ask an English teacher or professor to read your posts and then tell you
what impression you are going to make with them.
If you have a message that you want to get out then write that message down
in one short simple sentence and then figure out how to tell your story so
that you don't distract your reader from that message.
>> > Just food for thought. Okay, I am finished.
>> >
>> > Spencer
--
Joe Parsons
What responses do you believe have displayed animosity or disrespect?
Joe Parsons
CK
news:bb3e1505.04080...@posting.google.com...
> "J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
news:<cev8h...@news1.newsguy.com>...
> > Spencer wrote:
>
> ADD is not cancer. Remember I was diagnosed myself with it. You
> would not give chemotherapy to someone who was perfectly healthy for
> the most part. That is an extreme example, but all I am saying is
> that these stimulants affect many people many different ways but as
> CNS stimulants deserve all the respect you can give them. Like I have
> said many times I am just telling my story.
>
ADHD with the attendant behaviors and attitudes can kill; this is unusual,
but perhaps less unusual than the effects you are attributing to medication.
Untreated, it can certainly make someone's life unnecessarily awful (in
comparison to being treated and/or addressed).
CK
nknisley
> I understand your point, but I must say the following. One counselor
> insisted that I was manic-depressive, but the idea that I had a year
> and a half manic and then two years depressed and psychotic, when most
> manic depressives have cycles on the scale of weeks was ridiculous.
Where did you get the info that "most" individuals with bipolar disorder
typically have cycles that last mere weeks?
Yes, there are those who are rapid cyclers and have four or more
episodes in a 12 month period. But AFAIK, rapid cycling isn't typical
for those with BPD.
Nancy
Unique, like everyone else
Spencer
Hi Joe,
Not yours in case that is what you are wondering (it is good to keep
people on their toes about citing legitimate sources). I will not
mention what responses in particular made me make the above posting,
or I will break my own promise about treating people with respect. I
just don't want responses to my posting to break down into some sort
of alpha male turf wars like I have seen so many other threads turn
into.
Spencer
Spencer
I used far too strong a choice of words for that particular posting.
I am just in a hurry to post responses to as many comments/questions
as possible. I meant no offense. I had just finished reading the
post saying I was coming across as "a lunatic fringe nutcase."
Granted, that person said they meant no offense either. But as you
can imagine it is frustrating to feel as though a number of people on
this board are attempting to dismiss my experience as an aberration.
Please forgive the implied insult.
Listen everyone, by all means disagree with me, just make clear that
you are not calling me a liar or a nutcase. When something happens to
someone that is completely against all known medical logic, one should
not look at them and say "you shouldn't exist" but rather "why do you
exist?"
Spencer
Spencer
There is a difference between fault and responsibility, and I thought
you were implying fault on my part for trusting a doctor. Looking
back there was a part of me that was kind of worried about the
Adderall at the time I was taking it, but no one should be judged
while in such a euphoric mindset. Maybe this will make clear what
some might perceive to be inconsistencies. I still maintain however
that I was always open and honest with the doctor who prescribed the
pills.
Responsibility for who I am now is a concept I have gotten in touch
with at Narcotics Anonymous. That is my own issue as I try to get in
touch with who I am now and where I want to go with my recovery.
Spencer
I got that info from counselors and doctors fairly consistently. But
even if the information that reached my ears is untrue (as far as the
cycling speed of the average manic-depressive is concerned) it does
not matter. I ask myself the following question: what are the
chances that I was just manic depressive and that my highs and lows
happened to coincide exactly with the times (down to the hour) that I
was on and off the adderall?
Spencer
> Spencer wrote:
>
> > It is not my intention to be uncivil, I want a real dialogue to
> > happen. Nothing constructive or informative can occur in an
> > environment of animosity. I will therefore maintain a polite
> > conversation on my end and I hope that you or anyone else who posts
> > will do the same. I am just telling my story, as well as what my own
> > research has uncovered.
> >
> >
> > "J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> >> Spencer wrote:
> >>
> >> > Before anyone starts to tell me that I am being insensitive or that I
> >> > very carefully. I thought when I was diagnosed with ADD "thank
> >> > goodness, I understand my problem now" but the drugs they gave me
> >> > opened me up to whole new plane of suffering that I never knew
> >> > existed. Some might say I simply had a developing psychotic disorder
> >> > that happened to hit when I went on and off the meds but I will
> >> > explain very clearly why this is not the case.
> >>
> >> not the case".
> >
> > I understand your point, but I must say the following. One counselor
> > insisted that I was manic-depressive, but the idea that I had a year
> > and a half manic and then two years depressed and psychotic, when most
> > manic depressives have cycles on the scale of weeks was ridiculous.
>
I went to a local counseling center for the one in the above posting.
>
> > Especially if I were to assume that being on and off the adderall just
> > happened to coincide with these states. With respect to regular
> > psychosis (i.e. schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder etc.) which
> > manifest themselves usually in late adolescence/early adulthood, I
> > find it hard to believe that based on my symptoms on and off the
> > adderall that I had anything other than an amphetamine induced
> > psychosis. See my references throughout this second posting.
>
> Do you understand that "what you believe" and "what is true" are not always
> the same?
it is not just a matter of what I believe.
>
> >> > Adderall messed me up,
> >> > plain and simple. I would use stonger words but nothing could
> >> > possibly encapsulate the pain I have been through. Be warned, parts
> >> > of my story are not for the faint of heart.
> >> >
> >> > I was given adderall at 60 mg a day for a year and a half.
> >>
> >> That is 20mg/day above the maximum recommended daily dosage for treatment
> >> of ADHD and is the highest recommended divided dose for treatment of
> >> narcolepsy. Something is fishy here.
> >
> > Adderall is prescribed in 60 mg a day amounts for ADD see the
> > following link. Also, in the Physicians desk reference it says you
> > can go above 40 mg a day in rare cases for ADD. I weighed about 176
> > pounds at the time I was being medicated and I was characterized as a
> > "high metabolizer." And if I should have known better than to let my
> > doctor go above 40 mg a day, I plead guilty to trusting him.
> >
> >
>
> <http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/Econtent_HT/drugShowLfts.asp?fname=usp0349.htm&title=Adderall+
> 2C+Amphetamine+and+Dextroamphetamine&cid=HTDRUG>
>
> Check the FDA-approved prescribing information and not some random web site
> and you'll find a different story. Unfortunately for some reason Shire
> does not seem to keep that information online for regular Adderall, just
> for XR.
>
I must insist that in the physicians desk reference it does not close
the door on doses above 40 mg a day. It only says that "Only in rare
cases will it be necessary to exceed a total of 40 mg per day."
http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Adderall_Tablets.html
> As to what you should have known or not known, if your physician prescribed
> a dose of aspirin that put you in the hospital, would you blame aspirin or
> the physician?
>
> >> > That year
> >> > and a half was heaven but I had all the hallmarks of someone severely
> >> > addicted to speed (which adderall is by the way, and for anyone who
> >> > wants to nitpick the differences between methamphetamine and
> >> > dextroamphetime or the difference between street and clinical dosages,
> >> > read on because I will address these).
> >>
> >> Speed is one of the components.
> >>
> >> > I was gritting my teeth (my
> >> > dentist now tells me without exaggeration that my two front teeth are
> >> > worn down to what one would normally expect on a fifty year old),
> >>
> >> So? I grit my teeth with no meds at all.
> >
> > I am just telling what my dentist told me. Lots of people grit their
> > teeth, that is true, mainly in their sleep. But my teeth now look 30
> > years older than they should look. Some speed addicts grind their
> > teeth down to nubs. See the following link.
> >
> > http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/meth_effects.shtml
>
> Are your teeth "ground down to nubs"? Did your dentist specifically state
> that your condition was unusual even for someone who grinds his teeth?
All I know is that the teeth grinding came and went with the adderall.
>
> >> > I
> >> > lost weight,
> >>
> >> Which is not a symptom of being "severely addicted to speed".
> >
> > It is one characteristic of a speed addict. This is why they
> > regularly suffer from weight loss and malnutrition. Also adderall was
> > once a diet pill called obetrol. See the following link.
> >
> > http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/meth_effects.shtml
>
> Now let's see, you took something that is known to cause weight loss and you
> lost weight. How does that equate to being "severely addicted to speed"?
All I am saying is that it is one of many pieces of evidence that the
speed (which adderall is) was acting the way one would expect speed to
act.
>
> >> > my heart was running high constantly
> >>
> >> How high?
> >
> > Not sure but my father felt my heartbeat at one point and as a runner
> > who regularly checks his own he characterized it as extremely fast.
>
> It was "extremely fast" _once_ according your father but you don't have a
> number?
I don't see what difference that makes.
>
> >> > and most dangerous
> >> > of all I was constantly in a speedy euphoria for most of that year and
> >> > a half.
> >>
> >> Did you tell your physician this?
I had no idea what being high was at the time. I thought I had just
started being really really happy because I had moved to a new
residential high school when I started taking. The association was
with the place I took the drug rather than the drug itself.
> >
> > I would go into his office every month and he would ask me how I was
> > doing and I would say "great, wonderful, I have never been better!"
> > whilst shivering with nervous energy. It is just like the bad old
> > days of the early 1900s, when cough syrup contained obscene amounts of
> > cocaine. The person would take it, and they would feel better... for
> > a while.
>
> That's all you would say "great, wonderful, never been better"? And he
> wouldn't press you for details?
No, he wouldn't.
>
> >> Read this next sentence very carefully. I TOOK THE ADDERALL
> >> > AS PRESCRIBED no more no less.
> >>
> >> And why did you take it if you didn't like what it was doing to you?
> >
> > That is just what the problem was: while I was taking it, I did not
> > care what was happening to my body, because it was getting me high.
>
> Were you aware at the time that it was getting you high? Did you tell your
> doctor that it was getting you high?
>
> > I
> > trusted my doctor that if I took it as prescribed the chances of
> > something bad happening were very small.
> >
> >>
> >> > Once my doctor realized what was going on he pulled me off of it cold
> >> > turkey whilst muttering something about neurotoxicity.
> >>
> >> What did he mutter, exactly?
> >
> > I don't remember more than that he said he was convinced there were
> > neurotoxic effects at work. I was going through an intense withdrawal
> > at the time.
>
> Why were you "going through an intense withdrawal" at the time if you were
> taking it exactly as prescribed and he had not yet "pulled you off of it
> cold turkey"?
He had ordered me to take a weekend sabbatical from the drug and upon
seeing my distraught state ordered me off of it completely.
>
> >> > This when the
> >> > real hell began. I was consumed with grief and despair and despite
> >> > what everyone was telling me, it did not go away. At the time of this
> >> > writing I will be going on three years since they pulled me off of it
> >> > and it still has not gone away. It is always just beneath the
> >> > surface. I have just had to learn to live with it there. Believe me,
> >> > I wish I were kidding.
> >>
> >> Pity. But how is it that so few others experience this?
> >
> > You can believe me or not believe me. All I am doing is telling my
> > story. Also I am not the only one. Like I said in my original post
> > there are more people with stories similar to mine who have filled out
> > experience reports on www.erowid.org/experiences (go to the
> > amphetamines section) not to mention the people I have met in
> > Narcotics Anonymous. As of this posting I have plans to get all the
> > adverse reaction reports with respect to adderall that the FDA has
> > received under the Freedom of Information Act.
>
> I believe that you believe this. As for "erowid", again how many who had
> "experiences similar to yours" took dosages as high as yours?
>
> >> > For the next two years my mind fell apart. There is no other way to
> >> > describe it. I was punching myself until I saw lights, putting out
> >> > cigarretes on myself (most understandably I began to smoke),
> >> > interrupting my normal self mid-sentence so my paranoid side could
> >> > tell it to shut up and staring for hours on end at various blank walls
> >> > around my house. One psychologist who interviewed and tested me
> >> > offered to hospitalize me against my will even though I was legally an
> >> > adult at this time (my parents would not sign the papers thank
> >> > goodness).
> >>
> >> He "offered to hospitalize you against your will"? Interesting wording
> >> that. Usually if someone does something to you against your will they
> >> don't ask your permission first.
> >
> > My apologies, that statement was a little confusing. What I was
> > trying to say was that my parents were the ones receiving the offer,
> > which is why I wrote "my parents would not sign the papers thank
> > goodness."
>
> For what reason did he believe that you should be institutionalized? Why
> were your parents there at all? You are legally an adult are you not?
I was almost incapable of being in public places at the time that I
reached rock bottom mentally. I was living with my parents and even
though I was an adult they still had the authority to sign the
necessary papers.
>
> >> > Worst of all though was my constant and scary suicidal
> >> > ideation. I still get a wave of pleasure at the thought of jumping
> >> > off a building or sticking two forks in an electrical socket, because
> >> > it would mean my pain would be over.
> >> >
> >> > Two years and a lot of antipsychotic medication later I was beginning
> >> > to become outwardly functional despite the fact that the pain was
> >> > still there.
> >>
> >> They were giving you antipsychotics but you claim that you don't have a
> >> psychotic disorder? What's wrong with this picture?
> >
> > What I mean is not that I never had a psychotic disorder, but that the
> > psychotic thinking was brought about as a direct result of the
> > adderall.
>
> Is that your opinion or the opinion of the physician who was treating you?
Both.
>
> > I was diagnosed by another doctor with amphetamine
> > psychosis. It is a well documented disorder in speed addicts that
> > occurs as a direct result of prolonged amphetamine intoxication. It
> > is sometimes clinically indistinguishable from paranoid schizophrenia,
> > and is treated with antipsychotics. See the following links.
>
> How many doctors did you see for this psychosis of yours?
After I quit going to the doctor who had prescribed me the adderall in
the first place? Two, a psychologist who had treated me for minor
depression when I was little and another psychiatrist who had good
references.
>
> > http://www.paihdelinkki.fi/english/faq/faq_aineet_02e.htm
> >
> > http://www.update-software.com/abstracts/AB003026.htm
>
> Which you believe prove what? That amphetamine abuse can cause psychosis?
> If so, big news. That you experienced it from 60mg/day of Adderall? I'm
> sorry, but the fact that a condition exists doesn't prove that everyone who
> takes the medication gets that condition. Look up "aspirin poisoning".
>
> >> > I eventually came to the decision that I wanted to
> >> > escape from it all and I went overseas. I ended up becoming a pothead
> >> > for about three months. I then realized I did not want to be a
> >> > pothead and came home to the States. Please note that THC (marijuana)
> >> > is the only illegal drug I have ever taken, and also note that I took
> >> > after the worst of my psychotic stage.
> >>
> >> In whose judgment was this "after the worst of your psychotic stage"?
> >> Yours, or that of the physicians treating you?
> >
> > Both.
> >
> >>
> >> > Anyways when I got home I got
> >> > what addicts call a pink cloud (a period of time after you quit using
> >> > during which you feel a warm sense of well being and motivation, sort
> >> > of like the eye of a hurricane).
> >>
> >> And why did that happen if you weren't addicted to anything? Or if you
> >> were addicted to marijuana then how did you manage to stop taking it so
> >> easily?
> >
> > I am just telling it how it happened. Quitting the marijuana was a
> > piece of cake compared to the adderall... for me anyways.
>
> If it was a "piece of cake" then it was not addiction.
I said it was a "piece of cake compared to the adderall."
>
> >> > It didn't last but during it I
> >> > managed to sign up for two courses at a local university and get a job
> >> > as a lab tech. I then had a slight fallback
> >>
> >> What kind of "fallback"?
> >
> > My motivation vanished again, and I was beginning to crawl back into
> > my shell a little bit.
>
> My motivation vanished and I crawled back into my shell a little bit before
> I ever took any medication for ADHD. You can hardly blame this on the
> medication.
>
> >> > and ended up seeking
> >> > solace in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. I thought everyone would
> >> > laugh at me for saying I was addicted to adderall but it was the exact
> >> > opposite. I am not the only one there who was messed up by
> >> > prescription drugs, even when taken as prescribed. At this point I
> >> > would like to point out to the reader that adderall fetches a pretty
> >> > penny these days on college campuses. Just google it and you will see
> >> > stories about it on the news.
> >>
> >> So?
> >
> > What I am trying to say is that this drug is used recreationally:
>
> Nobody denies that. So what?
>
> > when
> > I was taking the adderall I was at a residential school and someone
> > tipped me off that people were stealing it for personal use.
>
> They were stealing _your_ Adderall?
Yep.
>
> > The
> > point is that you would not put someone on crack no matter what
> > studies showed about improvement for this or that condition.
>
> What does "crack" have to do with anything?
I was making a comparison to crack and speed. Both are life
destroying drugs that only have a place being prescribed in the most
appropriate and demanding of circumstances. I thought I was having
problems when I had ADD but like I have said before the cure turned
out to be a thousand times worse than the disease.
>
> > Also,
> > even if you did you would be extremely careful and not just give every
> > practicing physician the right to prescribe it left and right.
>
> Why not? Every practicing physician has the right to prescribe botulanis
> toxin left and right. Of course that's just nerve gas.
>
> Are you now saying that because of your experience Adderall should be
> removed from the market? If so, you've come to the wrong shop.
I was well aware I was in for a chill reception when I posted. Also,
I am not saying that adderall should be pulled from the market.
Sometimes stimulants do calm certain hyperactive children down. But,
after my own experience, I would assume that it is wildly
overprescribed.
>
> >> > Anyways that is where I am now. But before I wrap up I would like to
> >> > point out a few things. Some would argue that adderall and street
> >> > speed are two completely different chemicals. This is true and false.
> >> > Adderall is a mix of levoamphetamine and dextroamphetamine
> >> > stereoisomers, and street speed is USUALLY methamphetamine.
> >>
> >> Methamphetamine sulfate is one of the components. So what?
> >
> > See the paragraph below where I respond to why 60 mg a day of adderall
> > for a year and a half speaks for itself.
> >
> >>
> >> > But the
> >> > point is experienced drug users have trouble telling the difference
> >> > not to mention that street speed sometimes IS dextroamphetamine, hence
> >> > the slang name "dexies." Some would also argue that steet speed is
> >> > taken in higher dosages than adderall. NOT TRUE, methamphetamine in
> >> > powder form is 5 to 10 percent pure once it is cut a the dealer level
> >> > (for any nitpickers DEA seizures ARE around 20 to 40 percent but that
> >> > is at the middleman level) and with the ballpark dose being 400 mg,
> >> > this translates to 20 to 40 mg pure amphetamine.
> >>
> >> And you know this how?
> >
> > experienced drug users have trouble telling the difference
> > http://www.kci.org/meth_info/PowerPoint/PATH/Crystal%20Meth%20Preveiw.pdf
> >
> > Street speed is 5 to 10 percent pure at the dealer level
> > http://www.brookes.ac.uk/health/libra/speed.html!
>
> What does this have to do with anything? The _dose_ in medical terms is the
> amount of active ingredient, not the amount of fillers, dyes, shellac, and
> whatnot that are used to package it.
>
> > BALLPARK dose of pure amphetamine is 20 to 40 mg
> >
> http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/familyhealth/q_a/pages/1814.html
>
> That's funny, last time I checked "75 to 100 mg" was a bit more than "20 to
> 40 mg".
I capitalized BALLPARK because it the actual reference was within a
factor of about 3.
>
> >> > I was on 60 mg a day
> >> > of adderall for a year and a half. That speaks for itself.
> >>
> >> In what way does it "speak for itself"? I've been on a much higher dose
> >> of
> >> DHMO my entire life and I'll die if I stop taking it. Does that also
> >> "speak for itself"?
> >
> > I am not saying that all drugs are bad. But no one in their right
> > mind would suggest to someone they cared about that they go on a year
> > and a half speed binge. Being under clinical supervision does not
> > make a difference in how the drug affects you.
>
> Again there's the matter of your taking 20mg above the maximum recommended
> dose.
See my reference above to the physician's desk reference. Adderall is
permitted in that book to be prescribed above 40 mg in rare cases. In
my case they justified by saying I had a high metabolism and weighed
about 176 pounds when I started taking it.
>
> >> > Crystal
> >> > Meth which is smoked and is close to 100 percent purity is a different
> >> > story but the point is that the effective doses are not so different
> >> > as the doctors and pharmaceuticals would like the public to believe.
> >>
> >> Again, your source for this information?
> >
> > with regards to the crystal meth I can cite the following links
> > http://www.drugfreehawaii.org/Main/Topics/facts/Fact%20Ice.pdf
> > http://www.doitnow.org/pages/101.html
>
> And those show that the "effective dose" of "crystal meth" is less than or
> equal to the maximum recommended dose of Adderall where?
I did say that smokable crystal meth was a "different story.'
>
> >> > And finally for anyone who insists that any of this would surely have
> >> > shown up as a disaster on a clinical trial, remember that what
> >> > happened to me would not have shown up on a one or maybe even a two
> >> > year followup study.
> >>
> >> Why is it that with all the people on adderall and all the time that has
> >> elapsed since it was put on the market nobody has noticed this if it is a
> >> "common" story?
> >>
> >> I am curious as to why you come here and scare people rather than going
> >> to a lawyer and possibly getting this medication that you perceive to be
> >> dangerous removed from the market.
> >
> > I don't sue people.
>
> Then what is your objective here?
To inform. I am starting small but my intent is to warn people about
what this drug to me, online so that there is no vested interest in
money or being well known.
>
> > A huge settlement wouldn't change a thing for me.
>
> Then don't accept the settlement, go to trial.
>
> > It would just mean I would get paid to keep quiet and I won't do
> > that.
>
> If you win at trial you are not required to "keep quiet".
>
> > I did what I should and filled out an FDA Medwatch Form 3500
> > (severe adverse reaction report). But I am convinced the FDA has its
> > hands tied politically due to a very strong middle class lobby in
> > support of ADD.
>
> I'm sorry, but I don't see what "a very strong middle class lobby in support
> of ADD" has to do with the safety or lack of same of a specific medication.
>
> > I don't really hate anyone involved or think ADD
> > doesn't exist, It's just sad to see that the main ADD/ADHD
> > organization CHADD in funded mainly by pharmaceuticals. ( references
> > as follows http://ablechild.org/press.htm,
> > http://www.docdiller.com/article.php?op=Print&sid=21)
>
> And what percentage of their budget for last year and the year before and
> the year before that came from "pharmaceuticals"?
>
> >> > Remember that lots of these studies are on the
> >> > scale of 20 weeks and the longest followup I could find looking up
> >> > abstracts on medline was 2 years. Also go to
> >> > www.erowid.org/experiences and go to the amphetamines section. You
> >> > will notice there are about 50 adderall reports with a few stories
> >> > similar to mine.
> >>
> >> How many of those involved doses of less than 40mg? Just of the ones
> >> that were "like yours"?
> >
> > Some of them did not say how much they were taking.
>
> So they could have been taking 50 grams for all you know?
>
> > But many of the
> > stories I am referring to were people who took the adderall at
> > prescribed dosages.
>
> And how many of those stories were "like yours"? There are few enough
> "stories" on that site that you should be able to easily provide a number
> here.
about three
>
> > I see no reason why they would lie, and even if
> > they were I have heard too many stories similar to mine in Narcotics
> > Anonymous.
>
> We have only your testimony on that.
>
> >> > And lastly, adderall was marketed previously under
> >> > the name obetrol in the 70's as a diet pill and was pulled off the
> >> > market due to safety concerns.
> >
> > Here is a reference
> > http://www.add-adhd-help-center.com/adhd_medication_information.htm
>
> A reference for what? What point are you trying to address with this?
> >
> >> >
> >> > You might ask, am I an alarmist? Yes I am, and with good reason.
> >> > Whether it was negliglence, poor science or the pull of the almighty
> >> > dollar somebody screwed up, and I will pay for their mistake for the
> >> > rest of my life.
> >>
> >> Why haven't you hired a lawyer and gone after that physician who
> >> prescribed you a dose higher than recommended and left you on it for a
> >> year and a half without proper follow-up.
> >
> > Like I said, I don't sue people.
>
> In other words you don't want to take effective action that could bring
> about change, you just want to whine on the Internet?
The FDA has my story, will do what they can do and I will do what I
can do.
>
> > My family simply does not have the
> > energy to go through what would be a highly publicized lawsuit.
>
> How do you know it would be "highly publicized" and how much "energy" do you
> think is needed?
Drug and malpractice lawsuits are in the news all the time. One
involving a drug as widely prescribed as adderall might bring death
threats. It would be the reaction I am getting on this thread a
thousandfold. I am trying to put my life back together right now.
>
> > If
> > there was a giant cover up on the part of the pharmaceutical company,
> > that would be a different story.
>
> If it's not a "cover up" then what new information do you think you are
> bringing to this newsgroup?
I am adding one story to adderall's bad story tally, whatever that
tally is.
>
> > The best thing I can do for society
> > as a whole is get my story out and let everyone make their own
> > decisions.
>
> And you think that by posting to this newsgroup is "getting your story out"?
> I suspect that your average high school newspaper has greater circulation
> than this newsgroup. (No offense folks, but the notion that every USENET
> newsgroup has tens of millions of lurkers who never participate I find to
> be rather silly).
>
> > Also, unfortunately the doctor who prescribed the adderall
> > (whom I will not name) was and is still a major researcher and is very
> > respected in his field.
>
> So what?
>
> > He has been published several times. I am
> > sorry but I cannot provide any references to this effect without
> > placing the doctor's identity in jeopardy, it would rude of me to do
> > so.
>
> Now let's see, he harmed your health and you're worried about being
> _polite_?
I don't retaliate. I respond. He will be receiving a copy of my
typed experience report very soon. I need people to believe my story,
not fear it.
>
> > My point is he was not a "quack" who just went nuts with the
> > prescription pad. He was supposed to know what he was doing.
>
> Google "Charlene Riling". She was diagnosed by a respected researcher at
> one of the most respected hospitals at one of the most respected medical
> schools in the world. She won.
>
> > My intent is not to scare people.
>
> If your intent is not to scare people and it is not to have a medication
> that you perceive as dangerous removed from the market then what exactly is
> your intent?
To be heard, and posting on google is a small step towards that goal.
>
> > I do understand though that I am
> > going to get a great deal of negative feedback from my post. By all
> > means disagree with me, but please be polite, it has taken a lot of
> > courage on my part to bare my soul like this. People may be scared,
> > confused or enraged by what I have to say but to any who feel this way
> > ask yourself this: Would you honestly rather I had kept silent and
> > left you to face the dangers uninformed of what this drug can do?
>
> I would rather you prove this in a court of law and get the problem fixed if
> there is one than get on USENET and rant and convince people that you are
> some kind of lunatic-fringe nutcase. I mean you no offense by this but
> that is how you are coming across.
I strongly disagree. I have conducted myself in a clear, civil and
responsive manner.
J. Clarke
and 5 level quotes and sections of discussion that haven't led to further
discussion. Those parts are marked <snip>. I'm telling you this because I
assume that you're new to USENET, where this is common practice, and
because I don't want you to think that I'm trying to alter what you wrote.
Spencer wrote:
> "J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:<ceuhn...@news4.newsguy.com>...
>> Spencer wrote:
>>
>> > It is not my intention to be uncivil, I want a real dialogue to
>> > happen. Nothing constructive or informative can occur in an
>> > environment of animosity. I will therefore maintain a polite
>> > conversation on my end and I hope that you or anyone else who posts
>> > will do the same. I am just telling my story, as well as what my own
>> > research has uncovered.
>> >
>> >
<four level quote snipped>
>> > I understand your point, but I must say the following. One counselor
>> > insisted that I was manic-depressive, but the idea that I had a year
>> > and a half manic and then two years depressed and psychotic, when most
>> > manic depressives have cycles on the scale of weeks was ridiculous.
>>
>> "One conselor"? How many have you seen?
>
> I went to a local counseling center for the one in the above posting.
>
>>
>> > Especially if I were to assume that being on and off the adderall just
>> > happened to coincide with these states. With respect to regular
>> > psychosis (i.e. schizophrenia, schizoaffective disorder etc.) which
>> > manifest themselves usually in late adolescence/early adulthood, I
>> > find it hard to believe that based on my symptoms on and off the
>> > adderall that I had anything other than an amphetamine induced
>> > psychosis. See my references throughout this second posting.
>>
>> Do you understand that "what you believe" and "what is true" are not
>> always the same?
>
> it is not just a matter of what I believe.
<more 4 and 5 level quotes snipped>
>> > Adderall is prescribed in 60 mg a day amounts for ADD see the
>> > following link. Also, in the Physicians desk reference it says you
>> > can go above 40 mg a day in rare cases for ADD. I weighed about 176
>> > pounds at the time I was being medicated and I was characterized as a
>> > "high metabolizer." And if I should have known better than to let my
>> > doctor go above 40 mg a day, I plead guilty to trusting him.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
<http://www.healthtouch.com/bin/Econtent_HT/drugShowLfts.asp?fname=usp0349.htm&title=Adderall+
>> 2C+Amphetamine+and+Dextroamphetamine&cid=HTDRUG>
>>
>> Check the FDA-approved prescribing information and not some random web
>> site
>> and you'll find a different story. Unfortunately for some reason Shire
>> does not seem to keep that information online for regular Adderall, just
>> for XR.
>>
>
> I must insist that in the physicians desk reference it does not close
> the door on doses above 40 mg a day. It only says that "Only in rare
> cases will it be necessary to exceed a total of 40 mg per day."
>
> http://www.drugs.com/PDR/Adderall_Tablets.html
>
>> As to what you should have known or not known, if your physician
>> prescribed a dose of aspirin that put you in the hospital, would you
>> blame aspirin or the physician?
<more 4 level quotes snipped>
>> > I am just telling what my dentist told me. Lots of people grit their
>> > teeth, that is true, mainly in their sleep. But my teeth now look 30
>> > years older than they should look. Some speed addicts grind their
>> > teeth down to nubs. See the following link.
>> >
>> > http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/meth_effects.shtml
>>
>> Are your teeth "ground down to nubs"? Did your dentist specifically
>> state that your condition was unusual even for someone who grinds his
>> teeth?
>
> All I know is that the teeth grinding came and went with the adderall.
>
<4 level quote snipped>
>> > It is one characteristic of a speed addict. This is why they
>> > regularly suffer from weight loss and malnutrition. Also adderall was
>> > once a diet pill called obetrol. See the following link.
>> >
>> > http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/meth/meth_effects.shtml
>>
>> Now let's see, you took something that is known to cause weight loss and
>> you
>> lost weight. How does that equate to being "severely addicted to speed"?
>
> All I am saying is that it is one of many pieces of evidence that the
> speed (which adderall is) was acting the way one would expect speed to
> act.
>
>>
>> >> > my heart was running high constantly
>> >>
>> >> How high?
>> >
>> > Not sure but my father felt my heartbeat at one point and as a runner
>> > who regularly checks his own he characterized it as extremely fast.
>>
>> It was "extremely fast" _once_ according your father but you don't have a
>> number?
>
> I don't see what difference that makes.
One's heart rate can become high for a variety of reasons, one's father,
unless he is a physician or a nurse or a paramedic or the like, is not an
expert, and the lack of a number leaves one wondering if it was "high"
compared to an out of shape person on a treadmill or "high" compared to the
resting heart rate of a marathoner. If it was high enough to be of concern
then one also wonders why he only checked it once.
>> >> > and most dangerous
>> >> > of all I was constantly in a speedy euphoria for most of that year
>> >> > and a half.
>> >>
>> >> Did you tell your physician this?
>
> I had no idea what being high was at the time. I thought I had just
> started being really really happy because I had moved to a new
> residential high school when I started taking. The association was
> with the place I took the drug rather than the drug itself.
Fair enough, given your age.
>> > I would go into his office every month and he would ask me how I was
>> > doing and I would say "great, wonderful, I have never been better!"
>> > whilst shivering with nervous energy. It is just like the bad old
>> > days of the early 1900s, when cough syrup contained obscene amounts of
>> > cocaine. The person would take it, and they would feel better... for
>> > a while.
>>
>> That's all you would say "great, wonderful, never been better"? And he
>> wouldn't press you for details?
>
> No, he wouldn't.
That I find interesting. My shrink won't let me get away with that.
<more snippage>
>> Why were you "going through an intense withdrawal" at the time if you
>> were taking it exactly as prescribed and he had not yet "pulled you off
>> of it cold turkey"?
>
> He had ordered me to take a weekend sabbatical from the drug and upon
> seeing my distraught state ordered me off of it completely.
How often did he have you take sabbaticals?
<more snippage>
>> >> > For the next two years my mind fell apart. There is no other way to
>> >> > describe it. I was punching myself until I saw lights, putting out
>> >> > cigarretes on myself (most understandably I began to smoke),
>> >> > interrupting my normal self mid-sentence so my paranoid side could
>> >> > tell it to shut up and staring for hours on end at various blank
>> >> > walls
>> >> > around my house. One psychologist who interviewed and tested me
>> >> > offered to hospitalize me against my will even though I was legally
>> >> > an adult at this time (my parents would not sign the papers thank
>> >> > goodness).
>> >>
>> >> He "offered to hospitalize you against your will"? Interesting
>> >> wording
>> >> that. Usually if someone does something to you against your will they
>> >> don't ask your permission first.
>> >
>> > My apologies, that statement was a little confusing. What I was
>> > trying to say was that my parents were the ones receiving the offer,
>> > which is why I wrote "my parents would not sign the papers thank
>> > goodness."
>>
>> For what reason did he believe that you should be institutionalized? Why
>> were your parents there at all? You are legally an adult are you not?
>
> I was almost incapable of being in public places at the time that I
> reached rock bottom mentally. I was living with my parents and even
> though I was an adult they still had the authority to sign the
> necessary papers.
Yes, they had this authority, but generally speaking I don't take my parents
with me when I go to the doctor, so one wonders why they were present.
>> >> > Worst of all though was my constant and scary suicidal
>> >> > ideation. I still get a wave of pleasure at the thought of jumping
>> >> > off a building or sticking two forks in an electrical socket,
>> >> > because it would mean my pain would be over.
>> >> >
>> >> > Two years and a lot of antipsychotic medication later I was
>> >> > beginning to become outwardly functional despite the fact that the
>> >> > pain was still there.
>> >>
>> >> They were giving you antipsychotics but you claim that you don't have
>> >> a
>> >> psychotic disorder? What's wrong with this picture?
>> >
>> > What I mean is not that I never had a psychotic disorder, but that the
>> > psychotic thinking was brought about as a direct result of the
>> > adderall.
>>
>> Is that your opinion or the opinion of the physician who was treating
>> you?
>
> Both.
Now, you see, if you had said that up front then that's one little nagging
doubt that would have been eliminated before it had time to grow. This is
why you need to be clear on what the doctor said vs what you think.
>> > I was diagnosed by another doctor with amphetamine
>> > psychosis. It is a well documented disorder in speed addicts that
>> > occurs as a direct result of prolonged amphetamine intoxication. It
>> > is sometimes clinically indistinguishable from paranoid schizophrenia,
>> > and is treated with antipsychotics. See the following links.
>>
>> How many doctors did you see for this psychosis of yours?
>
> After I quit going to the doctor who had prescribed me the adderall in
> the first place? Two, a psychologist who had treated me for minor
> depression when I was little and another psychiatrist who had good
> references.
Why did you go to two?
>> > http://www.paihdelinkki.fi/english/faq/faq_aineet_02e.htm
>> >
>> > http://www.update-software.com/abstracts/AB003026.htm
>>
>> Which you believe prove what? That amphetamine abuse can cause
>> psychosis?
>> If so, big news. That you experienced it from 60mg/day of Adderall? I'm
>> sorry, but the fact that a condition exists doesn't prove that everyone
>> who
>> takes the medication gets that condition. Look up "aspirin poisoning".
>>
<more snippage>
>> >> > Anyways when I got home I got
>> >> > what addicts call a pink cloud (a period of time after you quit
>> >> > using during which you feel a warm sense of well being and
>> >> > motivation, sort of like the eye of a hurricane).
>> >>
>> >> And why did that happen if you weren't addicted to anything? Or if
>> >> you were addicted to marijuana then how did you manage to stop taking
>> >> it so easily?
>> >
>> > I am just telling it how it happened. Quitting the marijuana was a
>> > piece of cake compared to the adderall... for me anyways.
>>
>> If it was a "piece of cake" then it was not addiction.
>
> I said it was a "piece of cake compared to the adderall."
So how hard was it for you to quit Adderall? Not "how miserable was your
life afterwards" but how hard was it for you to reach a condition where you
no longer sought the drug?
<more snippage>
>> >> > and ended up seeking
>> >> > solace in the rooms of Narcotics Anonymous. I thought everyone
>> >> > would laugh at me for saying I was addicted to adderall but it was
>> >> > the exact
>> >> > opposite. I am not the only one there who was messed up by
>> >> > prescription drugs, even when taken as prescribed. At this point I
>> >> > would like to point out to the reader that adderall fetches a pretty
>> >> > penny these days on college campuses. Just google it and you will
>> >> > see stories about it on the news.
>> >>
>> >> So?
>> >
>> > What I am trying to say is that this drug is used recreationally:
>>
>> Nobody denies that. So what?
>>
>> > when
>> > I was taking the adderall I was at a residential school and someone
>> > tipped me off that people were stealing it for personal use.
>>
>> They were stealing _your_ Adderall?
>
> Yep.
So how did you deal with this? How much were they stealing?
>> > The
>> > point is that you would not put someone on crack no matter what
>> > studies showed about improvement for this or that condition.
>>
>> What does "crack" have to do with anything?
>
> I was making a comparison to crack and speed. Both are life
> destroying drugs that only have a place being prescribed in the most
> appropriate and demanding of circumstances. I thought I was having
> problems when I had ADD but like I have said before the cure turned
> out to be a thousand times worse than the disease.
The rest of us have had a different experience. This is one of the reasons
you're meeting with resistance. I've been on Adderall for ADHD myself and
comparing my experiences with yours either you are very unusual or I am
very unusual or there is something you are not telling us.
>> > Also,
>> > even if you did you would be extremely careful and not just give every
>> > practicing physician the right to prescribe it left and right.
>>
>> Why not? Every practicing physician has the right to prescribe botulanis
>> toxin left and right. Of course that's just nerve gas.
>>
>> Are you now saying that because of your experience Adderall should be
>> removed from the market? If so, you've come to the wrong shop.
>
> I was well aware I was in for a chill reception when I posted. Also,
> I am not saying that adderall should be pulled from the market.
> Sometimes stimulants do calm certain hyperactive children down. But,
> after my own experience, I would assume that it is wildly
> overprescribed.
Perhaps you should research that contention a bit and get some facts to back
it up. Hint--find out what a "peer reviewed journal" is.
<more snippage>
>> > BALLPARK dose of pure amphetamine is 20 to 40 mg
>> >
>>
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/familyhealth/q_a/pages/1814.html
>>
>> That's funny, last time I checked "75 to 100 mg" was a bit more than "20
>> to 40 mg".
>
> I capitalized BALLPARK because it the actual reference was within a
> factor of about 3.
I see. So you would consider any dose from 6.7 mg to 120 mg to be "in the
ballpark"? You need to understand that this kind of fuzzy argument doesn't
do your credibility one iota of good.
>> >> > I was on 60 mg a day
>> >> > of adderall for a year and a half. That speaks for itself.
>> >>
>> >> In what way does it "speak for itself"? I've been on a much higher
>> >> dose of
>> >> DHMO my entire life and I'll die if I stop taking it. Does that also
>> >> "speak for itself"?
>> >
>> > I am not saying that all drugs are bad. But no one in their right
>> > mind would suggest to someone they cared about that they go on a year
>> > and a half speed binge. Being under clinical supervision does not
>> > make a difference in how the drug affects you.
>>
>> Again there's the matter of your taking 20mg above the maximum
>> recommended dose.
>
> See my reference above to the physician's desk reference. Adderall is
> permitted in that book to be prescribed above 40 mg in rare cases. In
> my case they justified by saying I had a high metabolism and weighed
> about 176 pounds when I started taking it.
Let me get this straight. He _started_ you on 60mg? That was the first
dose he prescribed? And he considered 176 pounds with a high metabolism to
be a "rare case"?
>> >> > Crystal
>> >> > Meth which is smoked and is close to 100 percent purity is a
>> >> > different story but the point is that the effective doses are not so
>> >> > different as the doctors and pharmaceuticals would like the public
>> >> > to believe.
>> >>
>> >> Again, your source for this information?
>> >
>> > with regards to the crystal meth I can cite the following links
>> > http://www.drugfreehawaii.org/Main/Topics/facts/Fact%20Ice.pdf
>> > http://www.doitnow.org/pages/101.html
>>
>> And those show that the "effective dose" of "crystal meth" is less than
>> or equal to the maximum recommended dose of Adderall where?
>
> I did say that smokable crystal meth was a "different story.'
So why did you bring it into the discussion at all?
>> >> > And finally for anyone who insists that any of this would surely
>> >> > have shown up as a disaster on a clinical trial, remember that what
>> >> > happened to me would not have shown up on a one or maybe even a two
>> >> > year followup study.
>> >>
>> >> Why is it that with all the people on adderall and all the time that
>> >> has elapsed since it was put on the market nobody has noticed this if
>> >> it is a "common" story?
>> >>
>> >> I am curious as to why you come here and scare people rather than
>> >> going to a lawyer and possibly getting this medication that you
>> >> perceive to be dangerous removed from the market.
>> >
>> > I don't sue people.
>>
>> Then what is your objective here?
>
> To inform. I am starting small but my intent is to warn people about
> what this drug to me, online so that there is no vested interest in
> money or being well known.
It is going to be difficult to make your story "well known" without becoming
"well known" yourself. And if your story is not "well known" then how many
people are actually going to be "warned"?
>> > A huge settlement wouldn't change a thing for me.
>>
>> Then don't accept the settlement, go to trial.
>>
>> > It would just mean I would get paid to keep quiet and I won't do
>> > that.
>>
>> If you win at trial you are not required to "keep quiet".
>>
>> > I did what I should and filled out an FDA Medwatch Form 3500
>> > (severe adverse reaction report). But I am convinced the FDA has its
>> > hands tied politically due to a very strong middle class lobby in
>> > support of ADD.
>>
>> I'm sorry, but I don't see what "a very strong middle class lobby in
>> support of ADD" has to do with the safety or lack of same of a specific
>> medication.
>>
<more snippage>
>> > But many of the
>> > stories I am referring to were people who took the adderall at
>> > prescribed dosages.
>>
>> And how many of those stories were "like yours"? There are few enough
>> "stories" on that site that you should be able to easily provide a number
>> here.
>
> about three
Now, how many people are being treated with Adderall in the US? What
percentage of that number do those stories represent?
<more snippage>
>> >> > You might ask, am I an alarmist? Yes I am, and with good reason.
>> >> > Whether it was negliglence, poor science or the pull of the almighty
>> >> > dollar somebody screwed up, and I will pay for their mistake for the
>> >> > rest of my life.
>> >>
>> >> Why haven't you hired a lawyer and gone after that physician who
>> >> prescribed you a dose higher than recommended and left you on it for a
>> >> year and a half without proper follow-up.
>> >
>> > Like I said, I don't sue people.
>>
>> In other words you don't want to take effective action that could bring
>> about change, you just want to whine on the Internet?
>
> The FDA has my story, will do what they can do and I will do what I
> can do.
What they will do is file it somewhere and do nothing until such time as
someone gives them a _reason_ to act or the file becomes so thick that they
can't in good conscience ignore it any longer. You say that you will "do
what you can do" but then you resist any suggestion that you do anything
that might actually be effective in bringing about social change.
>> > My family simply does not have the
>> > energy to go through what would be a highly publicized lawsuit.
>>
>> How do you know it would be "highly publicized" and how much "energy" do
>> you think is needed?
>
> Drug and malpractice lawsuits are in the news all the time.
So? Does that mean that _every_ such lawsuit is going to make the national
press? Or even the majority of them?
> One
> involving a drug as widely prescribed as adderall might bring death
> threats.
Posting on USENET might bring death threats. If you feared that then it's
too late.
> It would be the reaction I am getting on this thread a
> thousandfold.
Why? There are those who would take your side you know.
> I am trying to put my life back together right now.
This is a good thing, but how does getting yourself beat up on USENET
advance that goal?
>> > If
>> > there was a giant cover up on the part of the pharmaceutical company,
>> > that would be a different story.
>>
>> If it's not a "cover up" then what new information do you think you are
>> bringing to this newsgroup?
>
> I am adding one story to adderall's bad story tally, whatever that
> tally is.
And who is keeping this tally do you think? You think that someone who has
been prescribed Adderall is going to make some kind of "tally" of "bad
stories" by searching the Internet and reading all 208,000 pages that
contain the word? And if you don't want to bring about some kind of change
then what's the point of doing this?
<more snippage>
>> > He has been published several times. I am
>> > sorry but I cannot provide any references to this effect without
>> > placing the doctor's identity in jeopardy, it would rude of me to do
>> > so.
>>
>> Now let's see, he harmed your health and you're worried about being
>> _polite_?
>
> I don't retaliate. I respond. He will be receiving a copy of my
> typed experience report very soon. I need people to believe my story,
> not fear it.
Then learn to present it effectively.
>> > My point is he was not a "quack" who just went nuts with the
>> > prescription pad. He was supposed to know what he was doing.
>>
>> Google "Charlene Riling". She was diagnosed by a respected researcher at
>> one of the most respected hospitals at one of the most respected medical
>> schools in the world. She won.
>>
>> > My intent is not to scare people.
>>
>> If your intent is not to scare people and it is not to have a medication
>> that you perceive as dangerous removed from the market then what exactly
>> is your intent?
>
> To be heard, and posting on google is a small step towards that goal.
Since you are not aware of it, you are not "posting on google", you are
posting on something called "USENET", of which google groups is an archive.
Now that you've been heard, what do you want. Do you want people to just
nod their heads and say "tut, tut", or is there something you expect them
to do?
>> > I do understand though that I am
>> > going to get a great deal of negative feedback from my post. By all
>> > means disagree with me, but please be polite, it has taken a lot of
>> > courage on my part to bare my soul like this. People may be scared,
>> > confused or enraged by what I have to say but to any who feel this way
>> > ask yourself this: Would you honestly rather I had kept silent and
>> > left you to face the dangers uninformed of what this drug can do?
>>
>> I would rather you prove this in a court of law and get the problem fixed
>> if there is one than get on USENET and rant and convince people that you
>> are
>> some kind of lunatic-fringe nutcase. I mean you no offense by this but
>> that is how you are coming across.
>
> I strongly disagree. I have conducted myself in a clear, civil and
> responsive manner.
I want you to understand that I am engaging in literary criticism when I say
that, not assessing your personality. Quite frankly there is enough in
your story that seems unlikely to anyone who has taken Adderall for ADHD to
make one suspicious of the whole thing.
Perhaps if you tried it again, from the beginning, in a "just the facts,
Ma'am" style, and including as many details as you can remember, you would
come across with more credibility. As it stands you keep interjecting
personal opinion in areas in which you are not an expert and then go off on
long lines of reasoning that are based on the premise that your opinion is
correct and that of the experts is wrong, often using more opinions that
are demonstrably in error to support that reasoning.
It would help if you gave some of the early history--why you went to the
doctor in the first place, what he did before he determined that you had
ADHD, what medication he prescribed and how much, what happened on that
medication and that dose, what adjustements were made in the meds, what you
told him after each adjustment, and so on.
Joe Parsons
>mb...@earthlink.net (Emma Anne) wrote in message news:<1gi3d6e.sjvn0e13z32izN%mb...@earthlink.net>...
>> Spencer <wick...@gte.net> wrote:
>>
>> > Hello Elvis,
>> > Thank you for your civility. As you can see on the message board it
>> > is in precious supply.
>>
>> Nonsense. Most of us have been quite civil. "Civil" doesn't equal
>> "agreeing with your interpretation."
>
>I used far too strong a choice of words for that particular posting.
>I am just in a hurry to post responses to as many comments/questions
>as possible. I meant no offense. I had just finished reading the
>post saying I was coming across as "a lunatic fringe nutcase."
>Granted, that person said they meant no offense either.
As John said, he was engaged in literary criticism when he made the comment--and
he told you in detail why he said what he did. Frankly, the amount of time and
care John has taken to correspond with you is unusual for him.
>But as you
>can imagine it is frustrating to feel as though a number of people on
>this board are attempting to dismiss my experience as an aberration.
>Please forgive the implied insult.
>
>Listen everyone, by all means disagree with me, just make clear that
>you are not calling me a liar or a nutcase.
Where do you find someone calling you that? My newsfeed is excellent, and I
have never seen any examples of such namecalling.
Joe Parsons
Joe Parsons
>Joe Parsons <as...@yankeemedia.n3t> wrote in message news:<h0e7h013do1bmi97e...@4ax.com>...
>> On 6 Aug 2004 08:54:22 -0700, wick...@gte.net (Spencer) wrote:
>>
>> >ATTENTION! ATTENTION! ATTENTION!
>> >
>> >This is a posting to everyone in general. Like I said before no
>> >constructive thought can happen in an environment of animosity. For
>> >those of you who have agreed or disagreed, respectfully and without
>> >guile, you know who you are and I thank you. From this point on, any
>> >responses that are intended to bait or be disrespectful I will not
>> >respond to.
>>
>> What responses do you believe have displayed animosity or disrespect?
>>
>> Joe Parsons
>
>Hi Joe,
>
>Not yours in case that is what you are wondering (it is good to keep
>people on their toes about citing legitimate sources). I will not
>mention what responses in particular made me make the above posting,
>or I will break my own promise about treating people with respect.
Do you really believe that calling someone on rudeness is a sign of disrespect?
What I am trying to determine is what you consider to be an "uncivil" response
to you. I count 40 posts to this thread, including this one. I have seen
several detailed responses to you from John Clarke and John Palmer and numerous
shorter ones from others. I have not seen anything that might be reasonably
called "rude" or "uncivil."
Maybe I am just missing something?
Joe Parsons
nknisley
> J. Clarke wrote:
>
>
>
>>They were giving you antipsychotics but you claim that you don't have a
>>psychotic disorder? What's wrong with this picture?
>
>
> To be fair, anti-psychotics are commonly used for many non-psychotic
> conditions, anxiety disorders in particular. I take serequel to make my
> OCD shut and leave me alone long enough for me to fall asleep.
>
Also, atypical antipsychotics such as Clozaril (clozapine), Zyprexa
(olanzapine), Risperdal (risperidone), Seroquel (quetiapine), and Geodon
(ziprasidone) are used as mood stabilizers to treat bipolar disorder.
nknisley
> nknisley <MothWr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<zATQc.23$ex2....@news.abs.net>...
>
>>Spencer wrote:
>>
>>>I understand your point, but I must say the following. One counselor
>>>insisted that I was manic-depressive, but the idea that I had a year
>>>and a half manic and then two years depressed and psychotic, when most
>>>manic depressives have cycles on the scale of weeks was ridiculous.
>>
>>Where did you get the info that "most" individuals with bipolar disorder
>>typically have cycles that last mere weeks?
>>
>>Yes, there are those who are rapid cyclers and have four or more
>>episodes in a 12 month period. But AFAIK, rapid cycling isn't typical
>>for those with BPD.
> I got that info from counselors and doctors fairly consistently.
If you are remembering what you were told accurately, it makes me wonder
about the quality of the rest of the information you were given by your
counselors and doctors.
> But
> even if the information that reached my ears is untrue (as far as the
> cycling speed of the average manic-depressive is concerned) it does
> not matter. I ask myself the following question: what are the
> chances that I was just manic depressive and that my highs and lows
> happened to coincide exactly with the times (down to the hour) that I
> was on and off the adderall?
OK. Let's assume for this discussion that your problem isn't bipolar
disorder, perhaps triggered or exacerbated by your use of Adderall, and
consider alternative explanations of your symptoms:
One is that you have another, yet undiagnosed, disorder.
Another possibility is that you indeed experienced some of the symptoms
of chronic Adderall overdosing, including amphetamine psychosis.
As you have pointed out in another post, Adderall's prescribing info for
ADHD says, "Only in rare cases will it be necessary to exceed a total of
40 mg/day."
OK, suppose you are one of those "rare cases" in which exceeding 40
mg/day was "necessary". (In fact, given what you've said about your
reaction to 60 mg/day of Adderall, I'd say that the evidence suggests
that you are not one of those rare cases.)
(Query: How did your doctor determine that such a high dose was
"necessary" or that you were a "high metabolizer?" Did he titrate your
dosage over time, or simply start you at 60 mg/day? BTW, body weight is
pretty much irrelevant WRT Adderall dosing. Someone weighing 250
pounds might do well on 10 mg/day, while another person weighing 100
pounds might need 30 mg/day for effective treatment.)
The prescribing info for Adderall says:
"OVERDOSAGE: Individual patient response to amphetamines varies widely.
While toxic symptoms occasionally occur as an idiosyncrasy at doses as
low as 2 mg, they are rare with doses of less than 15 mg. 30 mg can
produce severe reactions..."
And, you were taking 60 mg. So, the prescribing info certainly indicates
that toxic symptoms and severe reactions are possible at the dose you
were taking.
Still, it seems to me that 60 mg/day, while higher than the amounts
typically prescribed for ADHD, would not be an overdose for *everyone*,
as 60 mg/day is the maximum recommended dosage for narcolepsy.
So, if you did indeed become addicted to Adderall at 60 mg/day, that
apparently isn't the case for everyone that takes that amount.
As John Clarke has pointed out, some people can have atypical, very
serious adverse reactions to just about anything, even in very small
amounts. But once such an adverse reaction occurs, the prudent person
avoids further exposure to whatever caused the adverse reaction.
Whether because of ignorance, immaturity, or willful disregard of the
negative effects because you liked some of the more enjoyable effects,
it seems to me that you didn't act prudently WRT Adderall.
If the purpose of your posts is to encourage others to act more
prudently than you did, and to point out the serious consequences of
failing to explain in detail to your doctor (and, if you are a child or
teenager, your parents) how *any* medication is affecting you, you could
have stated that purpose more clearly.
If your purpose is to warn others that, as the prescribing information
indicates, taking Adderall even as prescribed can, in some rare cases,
produce some very serious side effects (as can be said of probably any
medication) or to advise others to take the time to read the prescribing
info for the medications they take, once again, you could have been
clearer.
OTOH, if your purpose is to scare people from taking Adderall as
prescribed for the treatment of ADHD at any dosage, which is what the
wording and information in your posts leads me to believe is
your actual purpose, IMO, you haven't presented a convincing case so
far. Not only was the amount you took in excess of what most people are
prescribed, but even at 60 mg/day, your experience may not be typical.
Spencer
As I said in another post, I was completely honest with my doctor. I
thought it was doing exactly what it was supposed to, as it gave me an
unnatural well of motivation and happiness. It is kind of hard to
recognize a prescription is getting you high, when 1) I had never been
high when I started the adderall 2)
It is kind of hard when you are high to recognize it and 3) your
doctor is insisting that the drug is safe. I feel you are trying to
insinuate that this is me or my parents fault somehow, and I will not
have it.
With respect to your query about how I got up to 60 mg a day. I was
slowly brought up to that level over a period of about 4 months.
I feel like I am meeting a lot of resistance to the idea that
something like this is posssible under a reputable doctor's
supervision. But the bottom line is this. The problems we tried to
fix with the adderall were nothing compared to the problems that came
later, as a direct result of it (my data point for that statement is
my current diagnosis of amphetamine psychosis, this is not my opinion,
it is just the condition I have). Maybe some people need the
medicine, but I was not one of them obviously. It was prescribed
anyway, and that is what makes me concerned about the current state of
things.
Spencer
Virginiaz
something like this is posssible under a reputable doctor's
supervision. But the bottom line is this. The problems we tried to
fix with the adderall were nothing compared to the problems that came
\\ - - //
( @ @ )
+--------oOOo-(_)--oOOo----+
+------------------------Oooo----+
Virginiaz
something like this is posssible under a reputable doctor's
supervision. But the bottom line is this. The problems we tried to
fix with the adderall were nothing compared to the problems that came
i've heard anecdotal reports of Adderall causing these problems, even when
taken under proper supervision. i've also heard from professionals in the ADHD
field that this can happen. but you will not lieky see these case published.
i believe it can happen. and this is another good reason to trust one's own
instincts when taking ANY medicine.
J. Clarke
Did he ask you how you were doing before he increased the dose? If so, what
did you tell him before you got to 60?
> I feel like I am meeting a lot of resistance to the idea that
> something like this is posssible under a reputable doctor's
> supervision.
Personally I have no trouble believing it happened. But I would question
how "reputable" a doctor who _let_ it happen might be.
> But the bottom line is this. The problems we tried to
> fix with the adderall were nothing compared to the problems that came
> later, as a direct result of it (my data point for that statement is
> my current diagnosis of amphetamine psychosis, this is not my opinion,
> it is just the condition I have). Maybe some people need the
> medicine, but I was not one of them obviously.
Did you function better when you were on it?
> It was prescribed
> anyway, and that is what makes me concerned about the current state of
> things.
Instead of railing about the current state of things, tell your story to a
lawyer and see if he thinks you've got a case. What you're describing is
_not_ the normal state of affairs.
> Spencer
drdaz
> Looking
> back there was a part of me that was kind of worried about the
> Adderall at the time I was taking it, but no one should be judged
> while in such a euphoric mindset.
This, right here, is what John Palmer was talking about I think (do correct
me if I'm wrong). You are saying that it wasn't your fault and that you
can't be held accountable for what you did. I'm no expert, but I get the
idea that this can't be helpful to whatever kind of recovery you are aiming
for.
Last time I checked, being 'euphoric' has never been a valid excuse for
making dangerous mistakes. Indeed, if you run somebody over, try telling the
judge you were high and see how much sympathy you get.
For what it's worth, I am sorry about what happened to you, and I do realise
that these things happen. The fact that your doctor seemingly didn't examine
you for any underlying conflicts and/or issues that could have been worsened
by stimulant medication is very unfortunate... You'd be quite amazed what a
skilled psychotherapist can do for a person. The (quite drastic) reduction
of drug side effects is just one of the positive things I have experienced
since I began therapy.
/drdaz
Vashti
>
> "Spencer" <wick...@gte.net> wrote in message
> news:bb3e1505.04080...@posting.google.com...
>
> > Looking
> > back there was a part of me that was kind of worried about the
> > Adderall at the time I was taking it, but no one should be judged
> > while in such a euphoric mindset.
>
> This, right here, is what John Palmer was talking about I think (do
> correct me if I'm wrong). You are saying that it wasn't your fault and
> that you can't be held accountable for what you did. I'm no expert,
> but I get the idea that this can't be helpful to whatever kind of
> recovery you are aiming for.
To me it sounds like a mistake that should be accepted as such, whether
one should be held accountable(or be judged) isn't really relevant for
recovery. It doesn't do any good though to deny the mistake was made by
oneself or the doctor concerned, unintentional as it may be.
> Last time I checked, being 'euphoric' has never been a valid excuse
> for making dangerous mistakes. Indeed, if you run somebody over, try
> telling the judge you were high and see how much sympathy you get.
Exactly: while intoxicated one can still decide not to drive. When I
started Effexor a year or more ago I actually made an emergency visit to
my doc because I was suddenly very *cheerful*... I didn't assume it was
the Effexor doing its job but consulted my doc to ask her if my mood was
dangerous. It turned out that I was being overly careful and that my
mood wasn't mania or anything like that but I'm still glad I checked.
> For what it's worth, I am sorry about what happened to you, and I do
> realise that these things happen. The fact that your doctor seemingly
> didn't examine you for any underlying conflicts and/or issues that
> could have been worsened by stimulant medication is very
> unfortunate...
I agree, hopefully he'll not make the same mistake again but he can
only avoid the mistake if he's aware of it.
> You'd be quite amazed what a skilled psychotherapist can do for a
> person. The (quite drastic) reduction of drug side effects is just one
> of the positive things I have experienced since I began therapy.
Also learning to accept mistakes and getting past guilt/blame is very
useful in life. Bad things happen and will keep happening, we can
manage such situations and learn from them.
Vashti
GT
suffer. If you experienced side effects like teeth grinding and
euphoria, the medication should have been stopped or reduced in dosage
immediately. My doctor was emphatic that stimulants should not be
stopped without tapering off. He gave me instructions for tapering off
after a trial for Ritalin of less than one week. 60mg is a high dosage.
I take 36 of Ritalin (Concerta), divided into two dosages, and it is
almost too much. I did a trial of a higher dosage, but the smaller dose
was the sweet spot for me. I experience no euphoria from stimulants, nor
have I ever. Unlike your claims, I did experiment with street drugs for
a brief time in my early twenties, now many years ago, and I really
couldn't understand why people would crave it. We are all different. You
got the wrong medication, and some otherwise ham-fisted medical
treatment and I'm sorry for that, but don't try to punish the rest of us
for your misfortunes.
nknisley
> nknisley <MothWr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<E3cRc.36$CG4....@news.abs.net>...
>
>>Spencer wrote:
<snip>
>
> As I said in another post, I was completely honest with my doctor.
If you've previously indicated that you told your doctor that you felt
euphoric while taking the medication, I must have missed it.
> I
> thought it was doing exactly what it was supposed to, as it gave me an
> unnatural well of motivation and happiness. It is kind of hard to
> recognize a prescription is getting you high, when 1) I had never been
> high when I started the adderall 2)
> It is kind of hard when you are high to recognize it and 3) your
> doctor is insisting that the drug is safe. I feel you are trying to
> insinuate that this is me or my parents fault somehow, and I will not
> have it.
I don't have enough information about what happened to "blame"
anyone--or anything (like Adderall).
For instance, in hind-sight, it looks as though your doctor should not
have prescribed such an unusually high dose of Adderall for you.
However, the doctor may have been acting reasonably based on what
information he had about you and about Adderall at the time.
Besides, not all the bad stuff that happens to a person can be "blamed"
on anyone or anything except perhaps chance, fate.
Bad reactions can happen to people from just about anything you can
ingest with no one's being "at fault."
I once heard a law school teacher explain why a court decided a
particular negligence case against a plaintiff. He said that the basis
for the court's decision was basically: "Shit happens in everyone's
life. The fact that shit happens doesn't necessarily mean someone *has*
to be at fault. Shit can happen even if no one is at fault."
> With respect to your query about how I got up to 60 mg a day. I was
> slowly brought up to that level over a period of about 4 months.
And, what did you report to your doctor about how you were affected by
that lower amount?
Do you know what you or your parents or teachers might have told your
doctor about your reaction to those lower doses which might have made
him conclude that it would be necessary for you to take such an
unusually high dose of Adderall?
> I feel like I am meeting a lot of resistance to the idea that
> something like this is posssible under a reputable doctor's
> supervision.
It seems to me from the responses I've read that the resistance from
other posters isn't because they don't believe that what happened to you
is possible, but to your apparent failure to appreciate the fact that
your experience is uncommon, and to your solution to your uncommon
experience which appears to be either taking Adderall of the market or
severely restricting the right of doctors to prescribe it.
I also see resistance to your apparent "blame the drug game" for your
addiction.
Your experience with Adderall is not the norm. Can you accept that fact?
(And, if not, why not?)
And if you understand that your experience is unusual, why should a
medication that's been on the market and used by thousands safely and
effectively since 1996 be taken off the market?
If every medication to which someone had a serious side effect was taken
off the market, probably not a single medication would remain available.
> But the bottom line is this. The problems we tried to
> fix with the adderall were nothing compared to the problems that came
> later, as a direct result of it (my data point for that statement is
> my current diagnosis of amphetamine psychosis, this is not my opinion,
> it is just the condition I have). Maybe some people need the
> medicine, but I was not one of them obviously. It was prescribed
> anyway, and that is what makes me concerned about the current state of
> things.
I'm not sure what you're saying.
Are you saying that because you had a bad experience with Adderall that
that proves you did not need *any* medication for your ADHD? Or that
it proves you did not have ADHD? Or are you saying only that Adderall
was not the proper medication for you, at least at 60 mg/day?
And, your apparent belief that your experiences might be widespread is
an example of a hasty generalization, that is, applying a conclusion
based on the results from a small sample to a much larger population.
Spencer
As I keep saying, I told my doctor everything and he assured me
nothing was out of the ordinary. The difference between me and
someone who gets high illegally while driving is that I was never told
I should not be getting high. I did not even know what being high
meant as I was experiencing it.
It is easy to say that someone made a mistake and that there is
nothing wrong with the psychiatric profession as it stands now.
Saying such makes people taking the drug now feel more comfortable.
What I have to say is by no means comforting, but it is the truth. I
got addicted and suffered from a psychotic disorder (amphetamine
psychosis) as a direct result of the adderall.
Spencer
Spencer
I was seeing him every month for the four months in which the dosage
was steadily raised.
>
> > I feel like I am meeting a lot of resistance to the idea that
> > something like this is posssible under a reputable doctor's
> > supervision.
>
> Personally I have no trouble believing it happened. But I would question
> how "reputable" a doctor who _let_ it happen might be.
He was the head doctor in a 5 doctor clinic complete with PA's running
all over the place. As I said before he had been published many times
and had testified in insanity defense trials.
>
> > But the bottom line is this. The problems we tried to
> > fix with the adderall were nothing compared to the problems that came
> > later, as a direct result of it (my data point for that statement is
> > my current diagnosis of amphetamine psychosis, this is not my opinion,
> > it is just the condition I have). Maybe some people need the
> > medicine, but I was not one of them obviously.
>
> Did you function better when you were on it?
No, I thought I was, but my parents were well aware, even though I was
living at a residential school that I was as bad as I ever was at
executive functions (i.e. getting things done).
>
> > It was prescribed
> > anyway, and that is what makes me concerned about the current state of
> > things.
>
> Instead of railing about the current state of things, tell your story to a
> lawyer and see if he thinks you've got a case. What you're describing is
> _not_ the normal state of affairs.
>
> > Spencer
I am sorry that you consider this to be one giant rant but this is all
partly to warn people about the powerful effects this drug can have on
certain individuals.
Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello
being honest and open with your DOCTOR, eh?
Been there,
done that,
got the T-Shirt,
and finally got off the crap and faced my addiction issues.
As far as you alleged permanent speed neuronal discomfort.
PROVE IT!
You don't sound even 0.00001% as bad off as Philip K. Dick,
so my guess is you're looking for either a lawsuit to get some quick cash or
a permanent disability pension to help pay for your next addiction.
HEY, BUDDY!
You just can't fool a fellow ADDICT, mmmmmmmmmmmmmkay?
You got some hard evidence, fine.
BRING IT ON!
You're not getting any help here.
And I am sure not letting you practice your spiel at me.
Give it a rest and get well.
RECOVERY! 1st step is admitting you have something ELSE going on.
Besides the stupid-assed unsupported circular logic YOURS OBVIOUSLY is based
on!
Prove me off-base.
Many Have Quite Successfully of late.
Seeing as how I've been addicted to the professional opinion that I'm
bipolar and all.
Still working out the rough edges on that one, but GARDANGBLANG IT, MAN!
Your story does not have anything but defense in it.
Sorry, bud.
You really need to come up with a better line if you're going to SELL IT to
the BIG MONEY crew.
Spencer
As I said in an earlier posting, if I had a magic wand I would not
pull adderall from the market. But something needs to change whether
it is prescribing protocols or whatever. It is not moral to put
someone through what I have been through and say it is for the greater
good.
Virginiaz
You don't sound even 0.00001% as bad off as Philip K. Dick,
so my guess is you're looking for either a lawsuit to get some quick cash or
a permanent disability pension to help pay for your next addiction. >>
you disappoint me MadGello. i gave you more credit than this post reflects.
Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello
"Virginiaz" <virg...@aol.commentary> wrote in message
news:20040808190506...@mb-m23.aol.com...
> << PROVE IT!
>
> You don't sound even 0.00001% as bad off as Philip K. Dick,
> so my guess is you're looking for either a lawsuit to get some quick cash
> or
> a permanent disability pension to help pay for your next addiction. >>
>
> you disappoint me MadGello. i gave you more credit than this post
> reflects.
>
Which part VZ?
Calling And Addict An Addict?
from experience?
Or saying, HEY! why the fuck you aren't connecting with your doctor on this
crap while it's going DOWN!???
oh well.
I can only speak from my heart.
The crap was expelled years ago.
That whole 1/2 hit of acid plus 1/2 hit of MDMA did a number on me, YES!
BULLSHIT FUCKING WALKS A BULLSHIT PATH!
J. Clarke
But what questions was he asking you and what answers were you giving?
>> > I feel like I am meeting a lot of resistance to the idea that
>> > something like this is posssible under a reputable doctor's
>> > supervision.
>>
>> Personally I have no trouble believing it happened. But I would question
>> how "reputable" a doctor who _let_ it happen might be.
>
> He was the head doctor in a 5 doctor clinic complete with PA's running
> all over the place. As I said before he had been published many times
> and had testified in insanity defense trials.
This does not make him competent. A friend of mine sued a senior researcher
at Yale over a bad medical decision that he made, and she won. The fact
that he runs a clinic does not mean that he is a capable physician, only
that he can draw in business.
>> > But the bottom line is this. The problems we tried to
>> > fix with the adderall were nothing compared to the problems that came
>> > later, as a direct result of it (my data point for that statement is
>> > my current diagnosis of amphetamine psychosis, this is not my opinion,
>> > it is just the condition I have). Maybe some people need the
>> > medicine, but I was not one of them obviously.
>>
>> Did you function better when you were on it?
>
> No, I thought I was, but my parents were well aware, even though I was
> living at a residential school that I was as bad as I ever was at
> executive functions (i.e. getting things done).
Was your doctor made aware of this?
>> > It was prescribed
>> > anyway, and that is what makes me concerned about the current state of
>> > things.
>>
>> Instead of railing about the current state of things, tell your story to
>> a
>> lawyer and see if he thinks you've got a case. What you're describing is
>> _not_ the normal state of affairs.
>>
>> > Spencer
>
> I am sorry that you consider this to be one giant rant but this is all
> partly to warn people about the powerful effects this drug can have on
> certain individuals.
That is not the way it is coming across.
Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello
> No, I thought I was, but my parents were well aware, even though I was
> living at a residential school that I was as bad as I ever was at
> executive functions (i.e. getting things done).
OKAY! Now we hit total,
ABSOLUTE BOTTOM OF DUH BARREL HERE!
Which is DUH boss of you?
YOUR PARENTS!
Which Is THE boss of you?
You!
Okay?
Now, you find out your fun with Adderall is over.
Enjoy the rest of your life not listening to your parent's ill-informed
OPINION!
Uh, er, like, wow, dood...
WHICH IS IT?
Get a fucking doctor that listens TO YOU?
Or get a FUCKED-UP doctor that listens to your parents?
My 2nd best guess, not negating my earlier 99.9999% correctness
you FELL FOR DUH addiction crap and bought it BIG TIME...
HOW OLD ARE YOU?
How early were you 'diagnosed'?
How much effort dod you put into BEING HONEST?
How much did your upbringing have to do with this unfortunate
diagnosis/sucked into a fucked-up whatever it was?
How about this?
Seeing as how it's taken you exactly 37 posts to get to
what's REALLY going on here.
PLEASE START OVER!
Remove All The Bullshit I'm supposed to buy into.
What is REALLY GOING ON WITH/FOR/BY/WITHIN
you there NOW!
NOT LAST WEEK/MONTH/YEAR... NOW!
Sorry to be so fucking harsh, but "BOB"damnit!
I hate it when I run into people that take so fucking long to
speak what is REALLY going on in them.
It's NOT MY FUCKING JOB to play Mr. Empathy Patient Guy a
ny fucking more, DOOD!
Some others on the news group will most likely jump right
down my throat about some of how I'm responding right
fucking now here in this.
Those parts are between me and them in the next few minutes.
The real question is here . . .
HI SPENCER!
What's Going On!?
It appears you have some stuff to talk about,
but you're not talking about it.
It sounds like you're talking about other stuff to me.
What do you REALLY FEEL DEEP DOWN IN THERE
UNDER THE MEDS ARE KILLING YOU STUFF?
If the meds ahve or are killing you,
USENET SURE AS FUCK ISN'T GOING TO
HELP YOU GET A FUCKING CURE!
Virginiaz
USENET SURE AS FUCK ISN'T GOING TO
HELP YOU GET A FUCKING CURE!
>><
..and it may just hasten his 19th nervous breakdown, at this rate.
Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello
FUCK THIS SHIT!
This IS fucked-up USENET!
get a clue, VZ!
"Virginiaz" <virg...@aol.commentary> wrote in message
news:20040808210334...@mb-m10.aol.com...
Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello
IS this the doofuss thread about the doofuss guy pretending to be ALL
FUCKED-UP ON ADDERALL, yet can still put several pages of clear English
scritp together even when confronted with discussiondirectly related to
solutions to said 'issues'?
YES, It is.
Hmmmmmmmm
Have you read any of Philip K. Dick's Later works?
While he was in GENUINE psychosis generated from amphetamine abuse?
I thought not...
When this joker starts talking anywhere near the level of damage PKD was
exhibiting in VALIS, I will be more than happy to suggest a rubber room
instead if Cognitive Therapy and/or just plain GET A FUCKING LIFE WHINER
FROM YOUR PARENTs' CONTROL-FREAK CRAP!
oh well.
hey VZ.
Thanks for almost setting me straight,
but, you, just like everyone else,
needs supporting argument
to 'prove your point'.
Your point was which now?
Oh, this guy might have a seizure!
OKAY!
So, GET HIM A DOCTOR!...
"Virginiaz" <virg...@aol.commentary> wrote in message
news:20040808190506...@mb-m23.aol.com...
Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello
I'm still waiting to hear from when and if I GET TO SEE A DOCTOR...
The main reason for reading AT MINIMUM 1,000 posts prior to posting to any
given Usenet newsgroup.
I MIGHT BE CRAZY!
bwah ha ha yada yada yada blah blah blah.
VZ, when it comes to meth psychosis, I speak from experience first, then the
heart.
FIGURE IT OUT!
or not... ;-)
KingsXman
> during which you feel a warm sense of well being and motivation, sort
> of like the eye of a hurricane).
...I feel gyped; I never got any pink cloud.
wah.
anyhow, I have faith that things will get better. Since you are basing
all of this adderal stuff on personal experience, i will base some
withdrawal stuff on my personal experience. Although, on this message
board, I don't think there's anything that one can write about without
getting criticism about...oh well. Vigorous exercise has changed me
(after years of depression after quiting drugs such as RITALIN). I am
not saying that running will have the same effect on someone like you,
or anyone else, but there must be something out there to get you
through the day. And i don't think cigarettes will help as nicotine
can increase depression and, obviously, create dependency and more
addiction.
in any case, overall, i suggest anything that makes you feel
good....but not drugs. I guess I'm thinking soley about the endorphins
from running, but there must be something else out there to give you a
sense of self-worth. But if you don't want to run, ask someone else.
~Matty B~
Sherlock Holmes
>
> >But as you
> >can imagine it is frustrating to feel as though a number of people on
> >this board are attempting to dismiss my experience as an aberration.
Seems to me this is actually the core of the issue. The rest is just
waffle.
I think the point youd have to make is that your experience *is* more
than an aberration if your to be taken seriously.
If you want to make a point go away and find out how many deaths per
thousand there have been from aspirin , penicillin and measles
inoculations and come back with some comparative figures.
Once youve done deaths tack on serious disabilies and see what the
number comes to.
Rod
Sherlock Holmes
"J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Velvet Elvis wrote:
>
> > J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >>> Barnes and Noble is now full of books claiming there are half a
> >>> dozen different types of ADD, and me and my parents used to be the
> >>> ones reading those books.
> >
> >> The one book that _counts_ is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual.
> >
> > I gotta disagree here. The DSM is about as irrelevant as it gets. It
> > defines conditions according to behavioral symptoms and nothing
> > physiological. SPECT and PET scans of mental illness are going to turn
> > the
> > DSM on its ear before too much longer. How long has it been since
> > homosexuality was a DSM listed disorder btw?
>
> When you persuade the medical community to start using some other
> publication to define the diagnostic criteria for mental disorders, _then_
> the DSM will cease to "count" and become "irrelevant".
>
> If in fact SPECT and PET scans are found to be useful tools for the
> diagnosis of mental disorders then either they will be added to the DSM
> criteria or the conditions for which they are found to be diagnostic will
> be reclassified as neurological or put in some other category outside the
> scope of DSM.
>
> What does the fact that at one time homosexuality was considered to be a
> mental illness have to do with anything? Time passes, social norms change,
Seems perfectly valid to me to challenge a diagnostic volume if the
references are based on social norms not scientific/medical fact.
I would be loathe to quote a reference that regarded homosexuality as a
disorder one year and not the next based on a change in social norms.
If that one item can be added or removed based on political correctness
of course it calls into question every other entry
Rod
> research is conducted, the medical community learns, the classifications
> change, some conditions get added, some removed, some combined, some split
> apart, new diagnostic criteria are added, old ones that are found to be
> erroneous are discarded--that's why it gets revised periodically.
>
> Would you rather have every psychiatrist in the country shooting from the
> hip with no standard guide? Or would you prefer that they use a different
> publication? If so, what?
J. Clarke
Challenge away. Do you have an alternative to offer?
> I would be loathe to quote a reference that regarded homosexuality as a
> disorder one year and not the next based on a change in social norms.
So what publication would you use as a standard manual for the
classification of mental disorders?
> If that one item can be added or removed based on political correctness
> of course it calls into question every other entry
Are you saying that homesexuality is in fact a mental illness every case of
which needs treatment and that it was removed due to "political
correctness" rather than the observation that homosexuals were now happy
about their condition and functioning well in society and not seeking
treatment in any significant numbers?
And none of this alters the fact that the DSM is what is used for diagnosis.
If you don't like it then get that changed, but until you have done so,
claiming that it is "irrelevant" is pointless.
> Rod
>> research is conducted, the medical community learns, the classifications
>> change, some conditions get added, some removed, some combined, some
>> split apart, new diagnostic criteria are added, old ones that are found
>> to be erroneous are discarded--that's why it gets revised periodically.
>>
>> Would you rather have every psychiatrist in the country shooting from the
>> hip with no standard guide? Or would you prefer that they use a
>> different
>> publication? If so, what?
--
Spencer
lawsuit. I am not in need of money, and my time is much better spent
getting my story ocumented and read. I have no idea otherwise what
you are asking me to address. When it comes to the marijuana, I
completely and utterly acknowledge all responsibility for ending up
smoking as much pot as I did as well as taking responsibility for who
am I am after all the drugs. But I still maintain that when it comes
to the adderall, I only got burned for trusting people.
With respect to proof, I am not quite sure what it is you are looking
for. No addict is able to offer proof of their own personal
experiences while on or off their drug of choice, other than what
their diagnoses have been and the description of how bad it got for
them as individuals.
Spencer
Thanks for your reply. I have actually started jogging recently (not
easy when you smoke more than a pack a day, but I hope that will
change soon too). I highly recommend narcotics anonymous for getting
some validation about one's own experiences. The people there are
always good to you, and as it says in the literature they "don't care
how much, or how little you have done" but only what you want to do to
recover. For the first time since this whole mess I am finding people
who speak the same language as me.
I too have to hope that things will get better. I know that
(neurologically speaking) they will. Lots of recreational drugs act
by dumping reserves of all sorts of neurotransmitters in order to
create the "high" and while there is permanent damage sometimes, many
cells and neurotransmitter levels recover, based on what I have read.
How much ritalin were you on? You implied that your experience was
similar to mine in your posting. If so, what parts of my story hit
you the most? The second purpose of my posting that I never really
talked about was to find people like myself as a means of showing not
only to me but to everyone that this sort of thing happens.
Thanks again for posting. Feel free to email at spenc...@yahoo.com
Spencer
J. Clarke
> As I have said many times in previous posts, I am not interested in a
> lawsuit. I am not in need of money, and my time is much better spent
> getting my story ocumented and read.
You are not accomplishing that objective with any particular degree of
effectiveness by posting here. Yes, a few people may find your posts. A
very, very few. Most of the people who are reading right now are clearly
not impressed by your testimony. Few will bother to wade through the
hundreds out thousands of pages that Google turns up to find your posts in
a search. If you want any significant number of people to read your
message then you need to get it more widely publicized.
> I have no idea otherwise what
> you are asking me to address. When it comes to the marijuana, I
> completely and utterly acknowledge all responsibility for ending up
> smoking as much pot as I did as well as taking responsibility for who
> am I am after all the drugs. But I still maintain that when it comes
> to the adderall, I only got burned for trusting people.
And yet you're content to let those people you trusted go on unscathed.
> With respect to proof, I am not quite sure what it is you are looking
> for. No addict is able to offer proof of their own personal
> experiences while on or off their drug of choice, other than what
> their diagnoses have been and the description of how bad it got for
> them as individuals.
--
Spencer
> On 6 Aug 2004 22:04:22 -0700, wick...@gte.net (Spencer) wrote:
>
> >Joe Parsons <as...@yankeemedia.n3t> wrote in message news:<h0e7h013do1bmi97e...@4ax.com>...
> >> On 6 Aug 2004 08:54:22 -0700, wick...@gte.net (Spencer) wrote:
> >>
> >> >ATTENTION! ATTENTION! ATTENTION!
> >> >
> >> >This is a posting to everyone in general. Like I said before no
> >> >constructive thought can happen in an environment of animosity. For
> >> >those of you who have agreed or disagreed, respectfully and without
> >> >guile, you know who you are and I thank you. From this point on, any
> >> >responses that are intended to bait or be disrespectful I will not
> >> >respond to.
> >>
> >> What responses do you believe have displayed animosity or disrespect?
> >>
> >> Joe Parsons
> >
> >Hi Joe,
> >
> >Not yours in case that is what you are wondering (it is good to keep
> >people on their toes about citing legitimate sources). I will not
> >mention what responses in particular made me make the above posting,
> >or I will break my own promise about treating people with respect.
>
> Do you really believe that calling someone on rudeness is a sign of disrespect?
>
> What I am trying to determine is what you consider to be an "uncivil" response
> to you. I count 40 posts to this thread, including this one. I have seen
> several detailed responses to you from John Clarke and John Palmer and numerous
> shorter ones from others. I have not seen anything that might be reasonably
> called "rude" or "uncivil."
>
> Maybe I am just missing something?
>
> Joe Parsons
>
> > I
> >just don't want responses to my posting to break down into some sort
> >of alpha male turf wars like I have seen so many other threads turn
> >into.
>
>
> >
> >Spencer
It may well be I was a little too critical and sensitive at the time
of that posting. But as you can see now on the message board, my
message saying I would not respond to rude posts was a little
prophetic.
Spencer
Joe Parsons
[snip]
>> >> What responses do you believe have displayed animosity or disrespect?
>> >>
>> >> Joe Parsons
>> >
>> >Hi Joe,
>> >
>> >Not yours in case that is what you are wondering (it is good to keep
>> >people on their toes about citing legitimate sources). I will not
>> >mention what responses in particular made me make the above posting,
>> >or I will break my own promise about treating people with respect.
>>
>> Do you really believe that calling someone on rudeness is a sign of disrespect?
>>
>> What I am trying to determine is what you consider to be an "uncivil" response
>> to you. I count 40 posts to this thread, including this one. I have seen
>> several detailed responses to you from John Clarke and John Palmer and numerous
>> shorter ones from others. I have not seen anything that might be reasonably
>> called "rude" or "uncivil."
>>
>> Maybe I am just missing something?
>>
>> Joe Parsons
>>
>> > I
>> >just don't want responses to my posting to break down into some sort
>> >of alpha male turf wars like I have seen so many other threads turn
>> >into.
>>
>>
>> >
>> >Spencer
>
>It may well be I was a little too critical and sensitive at the time
>of that posting. But as you can see now on the message board, my
>message saying I would not respond to rude posts was a little
>prophetic.
Let me ask again: what posts have you seen in this thread that you believe have
been rude?
Joe Parsons
Spencer
I know people becoming spontaneously mentally ill is the norm for a
great deal of different diseases. But based on what I have said so
far I do not think that this is the case. It is true people want to
blame something in bad circumstances, and it has taken me a while to
be able to be open to the idea that what happened to me is a "shit
happens" sort of event. But, I think I have been reasonable and
responsive in my research and I still feel that something is amiss.
The chronology of events in my mental degradation with respect to the
adderall is far too precise.
What I feel is amiss, is that in my case (I don't know about anyone
else) my ADD symptoms were pretty annoying but still something I could
live with if I had to, and the medication I was given for it was very
powerful. As I said in an earlier post REMEMBER (read this carefully)
what happened to me would not have shown up on even a one or maybe
even a two year follow-up study. Therefore no one (on this thread or
anywhere else) can say with certainty how rare what happened to me is.
>
> > With respect to your query about how I got up to 60 mg a day. I was
> > slowly brought up to that level over a period of about 4 months.
>
> And, what did you report to your doctor about how you were affected by
> that lower amount?
Said I was feeling better and more focused. Which I did. Just
focused on the wrong things instead of my work.
>
> Do you know what you or your parents or teachers might have told your
> doctor about your reaction to those lower doses which might have made
> him conclude that it would be necessary for you to take such an
> unusually high dose of Adderall?
He based his decision on the fact that the adderall would wear off
quickly for me in particular. I was taking a 10 mg blue pill 3 and
then later 6 times a day.
>
> > I feel like I am meeting a lot of resistance to the idea that
> > something like this is posssible under a reputable doctor's
> > supervision.
>
> It seems to me from the responses I've read that the resistance from
> other posters isn't because they don't believe that what happened to you
> is possible, but to your apparent failure to appreciate the fact that
> your experience is uncommon, and to your solution to your uncommon
> experience which appears to be either taking Adderall of the market or
> severely restricting the right of doctors to prescribe it.
>
> I also see resistance to your apparent "blame the drug game" for your
> addiction.
>
> Your experience with Adderall is not the norm. Can you accept that fact?
> (And, if not, why not?)
>
> And if you understand that your experience is unusual, why should a
> medication that's been on the market and used by thousands safely and
> effectively since 1996 be taken off the market?
>
> If every medication to which someone had a serious side effect was taken
> off the market, probably not a single medication would remain available.
As I said before, this was a very prolonged reaction to the drug so no
one can know how common it is, because most of the studies have been
extrapolated to many years. There is already someone at the bottom of
the message board who had problems with ritalin (and that is just of
the dozen or so people who have posted).
>
>
> > But the bottom line is this. The problems we tried to
> > fix with the adderall were nothing compared to the problems that came
> > later, as a direct result of it (my data point for that statement is
> > my current diagnosis of amphetamine psychosis, this is not my opinion,
> > it is just the condition I have). Maybe some people need the
> > medicine, but I was not one of them obviously. It was prescribed
> > anyway, and that is what makes me concerned about the current state of
> > things.
>
> I'm not sure what you're saying.
>
> Are you saying that because you had a bad experience with Adderall that
> that proves you did not need *any* medication for your ADHD? Or that
> it proves you did not have ADHD? Or are you saying only that Adderall
> was not the proper medication for you, at least at 60 mg/day?
>
> And, your apparent belief that your experiences might be widespread is
> an example of a hasty generalization, that is, applying a conclusion
> based on the results from a small sample to a much larger population.
>
>
> Nancy
> Unique, like everyone else
I am not really sure anymore whether I have ADD or not. I fit the
DSM-IV criteria, and after a great deal of computerized attention
tests my first doctor (the one who gave me the adderall) concluded I
had it. But there is still the matter of me getting revved up by
stimulants and not cleared up by them.
Many people are asking me what it is that I am suggesting and it is
this: If you have an annoying but tolerable problem like I did (and
this is coming from someone who nearly failed out of high school but
did 1520 on the SATs), don't risk this medication. And if you do, you
keep your wits about you and get off it the instant you start liking
it too much.
Spencer
> Spencer wrote:
>
> > As I have said many times in previous posts, I am not interested in a
> > lawsuit. I am not in need of money, and my time is much better spent
> > getting my story ocumented and read.
>
> You are not accomplishing that objective with any particular degree of
> effectiveness by posting here. Yes, a few people may find your posts. A
> very, very few. Most of the people who are reading right now are clearly
> not impressed by your testimony. Few will bother to wade through the
> hundreds out thousands of pages that Google turns up to find your posts in
> a search. If you want any significant number of people to read your
> message then you need to get it more widely publicized.
This thread comes up number 11 right now if you search "adderall" in
google groups. That may change as the post gets old but people do not
have to search through thousands of pages to see it. As to who is
affected or not by my posting, this is the ADHD forum, with its own
attitudes and biases. I expected a chill reception from those who
posted, but the readers can decide for themselves.
>
> > I have no idea otherwise what
> > you are asking me to address. When it comes to the marijuana, I
> > completely and utterly acknowledge all responsibility for ending up
> > smoking as much pot as I did as well as taking responsibility for who
> > am I am after all the drugs. But I still maintain that when it comes
> > to the adderall, I only got burned for trusting people.
>
> And yet you're content to let those people you trusted go on unscathed.
On the contrary, I do not blame individual doctors but I do blame the
system that is currently in place. All a lawsuit would do is get me
money, which I do not need. It would be an incredible hassle and it
would not bring any sort of change except to raise the price of
malpractice insurance.
Spencer
I have a good response for you but consistent with my post regarding
baiting and disrespect, you will not receive it until you can phrase
your questions and comments in a civil manner.
Spencer
see my response to your post elsewhere on the thread
Virginiaz
<< As I have said many times in previous posts, I am not interested in a
lawsuit. I am not in need of money, and my time is much better spent
getting my story ocumented and read. >>
you can file a report with the FDA. there is standard protocol for both
patient and physcian reporting of adverse effects not identified in the
labeling information. check out their site.
Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello
> I have a good response for you but consistent with my post regarding
> baiting and disrespect, you will not receive it until you can phrase
> your questions and comments in a civil manner.
So sorry, dood...
If it wasn't for bad luck,
we wouldn't have no luck at all...
I reply to your bait,
respect is what addicts have nothing
to share.
Velvet Elvis
> I know people becoming spontaneously mentally ill is the norm for a
> great deal of different diseases. But based on what I have said so
> far I do not think that this is the case. It is true people want to
> blame something in bad circumstances, and it has taken me a while to
> be able to be open to the idea that what happened to me is a "shit
> happens" sort of event. But, I think I have been reasonable and
> responsive in my research and I still feel that something is amiss.
> The chronology of events in my mental degradation with respect to the
> adderall is far too precise.
I dunno if anyone has mentioned this or not, but I'm pretty sure the
prescribing info for all stimulants list psychosis as an extremely rare
side effect. So, more than likely, you had a psychotic reaction to adderal.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that you didn't. I dunno. This
thread has gotten too long and I've quit following all of it.
Anyway.
It's not your fault that you had this reaction. It's not your pdoc's fault
you had this reaction. It's not the adderal's fault that you had this
reaction.
Whose fault is it? Statistics. The law of averages or somthing like that.
For every (x) number of people who take adderal, (y)number will have a
psychotic reaction. It is most likely that you had this reaction because of
some characteristic of your neuroanatomy. For every (p) number of human
beings there is a number (q) of human beings who have theis pysiological
characteristic. Where the mebership of (q) intersects with the membership
of (x), there is neccecarily a psychotic reaction. You had this reaction
because you're in the shaded portion of a venn diagram. Yeah it sucks, but
at least you weren't born with Downs syndrome or somthing.
--
MYTHOLOGY, n. The body of a primitive people's beliefs concerning its
origin, early history, heroes, deities and so forth, as distinguished from
the true accounts which it invents later.
-Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary.
Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello
Oh, that.
Oh, okay, 'SPENCER' IS A VICTIM OF A DOCTOR THAT PRESCRIBED BAD BAD BAD BAD
BAD MEDICATION FOR 'SPENCER'
Please print this and take it to the FDA and THE court AND your not-a-lawyer
AND your mommy, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmkay?
J. Clarke
> "J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> news:<cf8c...@news2.newsguy.com>...
>> Spencer wrote:
>>
>> > As I have said many times in previous posts, I am not interested in a
>> > lawsuit. I am not in need of money, and my time is much better spent
>> > getting my story ocumented and read.
>>
>> You are not accomplishing that objective with any particular degree of
>> effectiveness by posting here. Yes, a few people may find your posts. A
>> very, very few. Most of the people who are reading right now are clearly
>> not impressed by your testimony. Few will bother to wade through the
>> hundreds out thousands of pages that Google turns up to find your posts
>> in
>> a search. If you want any significant number of people to read your
>> message then you need to get it more widely publicized.
>
> This thread comes up number 11 right now if you search "adderall" in
> google groups. That may change as the post gets old but people do not
> have to search through thousands of pages to see it. As to who is
> affected or not by my posting, this is the ADHD forum, with its own
> attitudes and biases. I expected a chill reception from those who
> posted, but the readers can decide for themselves.
(a) how many people are likely to search google groups for "Adderall" and
(b) where do you think it's going to be a year from now?
>> > I have no idea otherwise what
>> > you are asking me to address. When it comes to the marijuana, I
>> > completely and utterly acknowledge all responsibility for ending up
>> > smoking as much pot as I did as well as taking responsibility for who
>> > am I am after all the drugs. But I still maintain that when it comes
>> > to the adderall, I only got burned for trusting people.
>>
>> And yet you're content to let those people you trusted go on unscathed.
>
> On the contrary, I do not blame individual doctors but I do blame the
> system that is currently in place.
So what changes do you believe should be made to the "system"?
> All a lawsuit would do is get me
> money, which I do not need.
It might also teach the doctor to be more careful.
> It would be an incredible hassle and it
> would not bring any sort of change except to raise the price of
> malpractice insurance.
In other words you don't want to be bothered with doing anything
constructive if it means a little effort on your part?
>> > With respect to proof, I am not quite sure what it is you are looking
>> > for. No addict is able to offer proof of their own personal
>> > experiences while on or off their drug of choice, other than what
>> > their diagnoses have been and the description of how bad it got for
>> > them as individuals.
--
Spencer
Hello,
Are you talking about the FDA 3500 adverse reaction form? If so I
have already filed mine. Let me know if what you are talking about is
something else. I would definitely be interested.
Spencer
Virginiaz
yes. i believe so, don't know the offical number off hand.
Spencer
I am sorry but this is a non-negotiable. I will not say who. If you
really are dying to know and will give me your word not to post it I
will email you.
Spencer
Spencer
You are right, it is the core of the issue, and the fact is we do not
know with any degree of certainty how many like me are out there. If
you look up studies of adderall, most follow patients for a matter of
months, and what happened to me took much longer than that. No one
knows, other than a few incidents where so and so sues Shire
Pharmaceuticals because they killed their entire family and they were
on adderall at the time. But most researchers will probably treat
these as statistical artifacts (i.e. coming up with a number of how
many people will go psychotic at a certain age in the US, finding the
percentage of people who are on adderall in the US, doing the math,
etc.). I am not saying I blame them, I would probably say the same
thing. But again, this is an addictive medicine, says so in the PDR
(it is speed, even the doctor who prescribed it to me admitted that)
and the long-term effects (I am talking years here) have not been
studied.
Spencer
Joe Parsons
[snip]
>> Let me ask again: what posts have you seen in this thread that you believe have
>> been rude?
>>
>> Joe Parsons
>
>I am sorry but this is a non-negotiable. I will not say who. If you
>really are dying to know and will give me your word not to post it I
>will email you.
I am not asking you to betray anyone's confidence; I am asking for your own
perception. Since everything posted to Usenet is public, I am simply curious to
know what *you* consider rude.
If you have gotten e-mail that is abusive or rude, that is a different matter.
But what I have observed in this thread to this point is not rude--to my eye.
Joe Parsons
Spencer
Your response to my post is reasonable so I will respond. My message
was not intended as a bait. I don't blame you for seeing it that way,
but I really cannot carry on an effective dialogue with someone who is
going to curse at me and claim that I made everything up. This comes
straight from the heart, so listen up: If you have a comment or
question AND we can both respect one another then by all means, shoot.
Spencer
Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello
"Spencer" <wick...@gte.net> wrote in message
news:bb3e1505.04080...@posting.google.com...
> "Rev. 11D Ricardo MadGello" <visualize.w...@sweet.pussy.juice>
> wrote in message news:<_zTRc.9624$BO....@nwrddc03.gnilink.net>...
>> "Spencer" <wick...@gte.net> wrote in message
>> news:bb3e1505.04080...@posting.google.com...
>> > I have a good response for you but consistent with my post regarding
>> > baiting and disrespect, you will not receive it until you can phrase
>> > your questions and comments in a civil manner.
>>
>> So sorry, dood...
>>
>> If it wasn't for bad luck,
>> we wouldn't have no luck at all...
>>
>> I reply to your bait,
>> respect is what addicts have nothing
>> to share.
>
> Your response to my post is reasonable so I will respond. My message
> was not intended as a bait. I don't blame you for seeing it that way,
> but I really cannot carry on an effective dialogue with someone who is
> going to curse at me and claim that I made everything up. This comes
> straight from the heart, so listen up: If you have a comment or
> question AND we can both respect one another then by all means, shoot.
>
I pretty much said what I had felt in earlier posts, Spencer.
There's not much left for me to share with you.
I've had many friends that have sworn at me about similar stuff
and I felt it appropriate here.
There's not much left after that.
I hope you sort out whatever it is you need to sort out with it.
All I know, Strattera doesn't sound like something I want for my own
whatever it is here.
Oh, I know, that's from a different batch of threads.
What are you on now that Adderall is out of the picture for you?
PS. I can be an ASSHOLE and a cute little furry pet-able kitten with real
sharp claws all at the same time. Mostly just an asshole. Don't bother
yourself about that at all. The trick is finding what's really going on and
do something about it. As if I could do that here... heh...
take good care of yourself, whatever that means these days... ;-)
Spencer
That is very much how I see it, except for one detail. We don't know
what percentage of people have had this reaction. Very few, if any,
studies of adderall would have been long-term enough to see what
happened to me, for instance. This combined with the fact that the
active ingredient in adderall is indistinguishable in effect from a
street drug messing up peoples lives as we speak, I find very
alarming.
Many Doctors swear what is called the hippocratic oath when entering
medical practice (sorry for the redundancy if you already know all
this). While it does not actually contain these words, Hippocrates
was thought to have originated the translated saying "first do no
harm." Obviously this saying cannot be followed to the letter, else
doctors would never be able to do anything at all. But I think we
should look at the risk/benefit for society as a whole with respect to
the adderall, through the lens of this guiding principle. I had bad
attention and concentration issues, but I can safely say that had I
known for instance that there was a one in a thousand chance that I
would have ended up like this, I would not have taken the drug. Even
if I knew it was going to help the symptoms it was prescribed for. I
think that doctors, for whatever reason (the paranoid part of me says
money, but I think people can be more complicated) are glossing over
the incidents of addiction, withdrawal and psychosis related to
adderall and are deliberately not investigating it further.
I am not trying to diminish the attention and concentration issues
that some people, including myself, face. But again, addiction and
psychotic reactions happen with this drug (it happened in the long
term for me personally) and there are few or no studies that can
reliably say how common it is over longer periods of time. I was
lucky enough to realize late in my recovery that it was actually
addiction that I was dealing with. Some may not have been so lucky.
Spencer
J. Clarke
You seem really good at complaining about the unfairness of Life, the
Universe, and Everything, but not very strong on actually doing anything
about it. If you consider particular posters to be rude then how are they
going to learn to amend their behavior if you won't say who or what
specifically they did?
J. Clarke
You keep saying this. How many studies have you read and which ones were
they? This is part of the "They're drugging our kids" party line. Simple
fact--the meds have been in use for decades--if there was any kind of big
problem it would have shown up by now.
> Many Doctors swear what is called the hippocratic oath when entering
> medical practice (sorry for the redundancy if you already know all
> this). While it does not actually contain these words, Hippocrates
> was thought to have originated the translated saying "first do no
> harm." Obviously this saying cannot be followed to the letter, else
> doctors would never be able to do anything at all. But I think we
> should look at the risk/benefit for society as a whole with respect to
> the adderall, through the lens of this guiding principle. I had bad
> attention and concentration issues, but I can safely say that had I
> known for instance that there was a one in a thousand chance that I
> would have ended up like this, I would not have taken the drug.
So is it a "one in a thousand chance"?
> Even
> if I knew it was going to help the symptoms it was prescribed for. I
> think that doctors, for whatever reason (the paranoid part of me says
> money, but I think people can be more complicated) are glossing over
> the incidents of addiction, withdrawal and psychosis related to
> adderall and are deliberately not investigating it further.
So how do doctors make money off of prescribing Adderall? What treatment
_should_ they be using?
> I am not trying to diminish the attention and concentration issues
> that some people, including myself, face. But again, addiction and
> psychotic reactions happen with this drug (it happened in the long
> term for me personally) and there are few or no studies that can
> reliably say how common it is over longer periods of time.
So WHAT?
On the one hand you keep saying you don't want it banned, on the other you
keep saying that it's not worth the risk. So should it be removed from the
market or shouldn't it? If it shouldn't then what the HELL difference does
any of this make? If it should, then why won't you do anything that might
help advance that agenda?
> I was
> lucky enough to realize late in my recovery that it was actually
> addiction that I was dealing with. Some may not have been so lucky.
>
> Spencer
--
Sherlock Holmes
"J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
Dont need one - its not me that quotes it as Gospel.
Further ,and more importantly,it isnt necessary to have an alternative
to challenge its validity.
>
> > I would be loathe to quote a reference that regarded homosexuality as a
> > disorder one year and not the next based on a change in social norms.
>
> So what publication would you use as a standard manual for the
> classification of mental disorders?
See above. But keep in mind its a publication of the *American*
Psychiatric Association so I assume the rest of the world gets by
somehow.
>
> > If that one item can be added or removed based on political correctness
> > of course it calls into question every other entry
>
> Are you saying that homesexuality is in fact a mental illness every case of
> which needs treatment and that it was removed due to "political
> correctness" rather than the observation that homosexuals were now happy
> about their condition and functioning well in society and not seeking
> treatment in any significant numbers?
Sorry - not taking that bait. The sentence clearly states "added or
removed". If I wanted to make only selective reference to that sentence
I could just as easily be saying that homosexuals were only added due to
political correctness but I wouldnt be so selective in my quote.
Further to have asked that question youd not only have to selectively
quote but also take that quote out of the context of the discussion. The
subject was that a diagnostic volume that changes its references based
on social norms is a volume that lacks credibility.
The reference to homosexuals says nothing of my attitude to gays but
addresses the issue of adding or removing an entry in this tome
according to political correctness as opposed to the result of
scientific research.
Rod
Sherlock Holmes
wick...@gte.net (Spencer) wrote:
Fine - so address my point - get back when you have some concrete info
cause til then its just waffle. Til then its just Chicken Little running
around saying that the sky might fall.
Rod
J. Clarke
Until there is a better alternative, it is going to be what the
mental-health community uses.
> Further ,and more importantly,it isnt necessary to have an alternative
> to challenge its validity.
Again, challenge away, but your "challenge" is not going to make the mental
health community quit using it.
Look, arguing this point with me is a waste of effort--you're shooting the
messenger. I don't control what reference the psychiatrists and
psychologists use. If you don't like it, take it up with them.
>> > I would be loathe to quote a reference that regarded homosexuality as a
>> > disorder one year and not the next based on a change in social norms.
>>
>> So what publication would you use as a standard manual for the
>> classification of mental disorders?
>
> See above. But keep in mind its a publication of the *American*
> Psychiatric Association so I assume the rest of the world gets by
> somehow.
So what reference do you think the rest of the world uses?
>> > If that one item can be added or removed based on political correctness
>> > of course it calls into question every other entry
>>
>> Are you saying that homesexuality is in fact a mental illness every case
>> of which needs treatment and that it was removed due to "political
>> correctness" rather than the observation that homosexuals were now happy
>> about their condition and functioning well in society and not seeking
>> treatment in any significant numbers?
>
> Sorry - not taking that bait. The sentence clearly states "added or
> removed". If I wanted to make only selective reference to that sentence
> I could just as easily be saying that homosexuals were only added due to
> political correctness but I wouldnt be so selective in my quote.
>
> Further to have asked that question youd not only have to selectively
> quote but also take that quote out of the context of the discussion. The
> subject was that a diagnostic volume that changes its references based
> on social norms is a volume that lacks credibility.
Fine, it lacks credibility. Go convince the psychiatrists and psychologists
of this and persuade them to abandon it. It could be as big a fairy tale
as Dianetics but it is still the book that counts until the practitioners
stop using it.
> The reference to homosexuals says nothing of my attitude to gays but
> addresses the issue of adding or removing an entry in this tome
> according to political correctness as opposed to the result of
> scientific research.
And it's a red herring because it doesn't matter what you or I think, it's
still the book the doctors use. If you don't like it then take it up with
them.
> Rod
>>
>> And none of this alters the fact that the DSM is what is used for
>> diagnosis. If you don't like it then get that changed, but until you have
>> done so, claiming that it is "irrelevant" is pointless.
>>
>> > Rod
>> >> research is conducted, the medical community learns, the
>> >> classifications change, some conditions get added, some removed, some
>> >> combined, some split apart, new diagnostic criteria are added, old
>> >> ones that are found to be erroneous are discarded--that's why it gets
>> >> revised periodically.
>> >>
>> >> Would you rather have every psychiatrist in the country shooting from
>> >> the
>> >> hip with no standard guide? Or would you prefer that they use a
>> >> different
>> >> publication? If so, what?
--
Emma Anne
> It's not your fault that you had this reaction. It's not your pdoc's fault
> you had this reaction. It's not the adderal's fault that you had this
> reaction.
>
> Whose fault is it? Statistics. The law of averages or somthing like that.
>
> For every (x) number of people who take adderal, (y)number will have a
> psychotic reaction.
That makes a lot of sense. The last time I took Penicillan, I got a
rash all over my body. My doctor said that next times I take it, it
could be a severe antiphalactic reaction that could even kill me.
Therefore I should never take Penicillan again. Statistics.
Spencer
> Spencer wrote:
>
> > "J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:<cf8c...@news2.newsguy.com>...
> >> Spencer wrote:
> >>
> >> > As I have said many times in previous posts, I am not interested in a
> >> > lawsuit. I am not in need of money, and my time is much better spent
> >> > getting my story ocumented and read.
> >>
> >> You are not accomplishing that objective with any particular degree of
> >> effectiveness by posting here. Yes, a few people may find your posts. A
> >> very, very few. Most of the people who are reading right now are clearly
> >> not impressed by your testimony. Few will bother to wade through the
> >> hundreds out thousands of pages that Google turns up to find your posts
> >> in
> >> a search. If you want any significant number of people to read your
> >> message then you need to get it more widely publicized.
> >
> > This thread comes up number 11 right now if you search "adderall" in
> > google groups. That may change as the post gets old but people do not
> > have to search through thousands of pages to see it. As to who is
> > affected or not by my posting, this is the ADHD forum, with its own
> > attitudes and biases. I expected a chill reception from those who
> > posted, but the readers can decide for themselves.
>
> (a) how many people are likely to search google groups for "Adderall" and
> (b) where do you think it's going to be a year from now?
a) anyone curious about side effects
b) if you do the search I mentioned the results are not actually by
date, suggesting the search engine uses relevance more than how recent
the post is.
>
> >> > I have no idea otherwise what
> >> > you are asking me to address. When it comes to the marijuana, I
> >> > completely and utterly acknowledge all responsibility for ending up
> >> > smoking as much pot as I did as well as taking responsibility for who
> >> > am I am after all the drugs. But I still maintain that when it comes
> >> > to the adderall, I only got burned for trusting people.
> >>
> >> And yet you're content to let those people you trusted go on unscathed.
> >
> > On the contrary, I do not blame individual doctors but I do blame the
> > system that is currently in place.
>
> So what changes do you believe should be made to the "system"?
I don't know. That is for people who already know it to decide. But
from my vantage point it seems as though there needs to be a better
protocol involving addictive drugs like adderall.
>
> > All a lawsuit would do is get me
> > money, which I do not need.
>
> It might also teach the doctor to be more careful.
See what I post at the bottom.
>
> > It would be an incredible hassle and it
> > would not bring any sort of change except to raise the price of
> > malpractice insurance.
>
> In other words you don't want to be bothered with doing anything
> constructive if it means a little effort on your part?
Same as above.
>
> >> > With respect to proof, I am not quite sure what it is you are looking
> >> > for. No addict is able to offer proof of their own personal
> >> > experiences while on or off their drug of choice, other than what
> >> > their diagnoses have been and the description of how bad it got for
> >> > them as individuals.
Lawsuits are a dirty business, and I want no part of it. As I said
before, I can more effectively bring about change (small though it may
be) by getting my story out as a warning. I have enough on my plate
getting my life back together as it is.
It is clear we disagree on this subject, so please do not post on it
again unless you have a different angle.
Spencer
J. Clarke
Anyone at all? I think you overestimate the zeal with which people consult
Google Groups. Did _you_ before you went on Adderall?
> b) if you do the search I mentioned the results are not actually by
> date, suggesting the search engine uses relevance more than how recent
> the post is.
And what makes you think that there won't be many posts that the search
engine regards as "more relevant" in the next year?
>> >> > I have no idea otherwise what
>> >> > you are asking me to address. When it comes to the marijuana, I
>> >> > completely and utterly acknowledge all responsibility for ending up
>> >> > smoking as much pot as I did as well as taking responsibility for
>> >> > who
>> >> > am I am after all the drugs. But I still maintain that when it
>> >> > comes to the adderall, I only got burned for trusting people.
>> >>
>> >> And yet you're content to let those people you trusted go on
>> >> unscathed.
>> >
>> > On the contrary, I do not blame individual doctors but I do blame the
>> > system that is currently in place.
>>
>> So what changes do you believe should be made to the "system"?
>
> I don't know. That is for people who already know it to decide. But
> from my vantage point it seems as though there needs to be a better
> protocol involving addictive drugs like adderall.
So how would you improve the protocol?
>> > All a lawsuit would do is get me
>> > money, which I do not need.
>>
>> It might also teach the doctor to be more careful.
>
> See what I post at the bottom.
>
>>
>> > It would be an incredible hassle and it
>> > would not bring any sort of change except to raise the price of
>> > malpractice insurance.
>>
>> In other words you don't want to be bothered with doing anything
>> constructive if it means a little effort on your part?
>
> Same as above.
>
>>
>> >> > With respect to proof, I am not quite sure what it is you are
>> >> > looking
>> >> > for. No addict is able to offer proof of their own personal
>> >> > experiences while on or off their drug of choice, other than what
>> >> > their diagnoses have been and the description of how bad it got for
>> >> > them as individuals.
>
> Lawsuits are a dirty business, and I want no part of it. As I said
> before, I can more effectively bring about change (small though it may
> be) by getting my story out as a warning. I have enough on my plate
> getting my life back together as it is.
I see. So when has social change come about because someone posted a
message on USENET?
> It is clear we disagree on this subject, so please do not post on it
> again unless you have a different angle.
Excuse me, but I will damned well post on any topic I please. On USENET
_any_ post is fair game.
> Spencer
Joe Parsons
>> (a) how many people are likely to search google groups for "Adderall" and
>> (b) where do you think it's going to be a year from now?
>
>a) anyone curious about side effects
>b) if you do the search I mentioned the results are not actually by
>date, suggesting the search engine uses relevance more than how recent
>the post is.
When you search the Usenet archives through Google, you can get them in order of
date. It's different from a basic Google search.
The Advanced Group Search is at
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search?hl=en
Joe Parsons
Spencer
That IS just my point. No one has any concrete info that tells
whether adderalll behaves any differently than something like meth in
the long term. The one concrete piece of information here is that
adderall is speed, and no one has studied the long term effects.
The burden of proof is not on me to prove that it is not safe. One is
supposed to prove something is reasonably safe, in the long term,
before you start prescribing it.
Spencer
Spencer
> Spencer wrote:
>
> > "J. Clarke" <jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote in message
> >> Spencer wrote:
> >>
> >> > nknisley <MothWr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> > news:<E3cRc.36$CG4....@news.abs.net>...
> >> >> Spencer wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> > nknisley <MothWr...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> > news:<zATQc.23$ex2....@news.abs.net>...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>Spencer wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>>I understand your point, but I must say the following. One
> >> >> >>>counselor insisted that I was manic-depressive, but the idea that I
> >> >> >>>had a year and a half manic and then two years depressed and
> >> >> >>>psychotic, when most manic depressives have cycles on the scale of
> >> >> >>>weeks was ridiculous.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Where did you get the info that "most" individuals with bipolar
> >> >> >>disorder typically have cycles that last mere weeks?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>Yes, there are those who are rapid cyclers and have four or more
> >> >> >>episodes in a 12 month period. But AFAIK, rapid cycling isn't
> >> >> >>typical for those with BPD.
>
> >> >> > I got that info from counselors and doctors fairly consistently.
> >> >>
> >> >> If you are remembering what you were told accurately, it makes me
> >> >> wonder about the quality of the rest of the information you were given
> >> >> by your counselors and doctors.
> >> >>
> >> >> > But
> >> >> > even if the information that reached my ears is untrue (as far as
> >> >> > the cycling speed of the average manic-depressive is concerned) it
> >> >> > does
> >> >> > not matter. I ask myself the following question: what are the
> >> >> > chances that I was just manic depressive and that my highs and lows
> >> >> > happened to coincide exactly with the times (down to the hour) that
> >> >> > I was on and off the adderall?
> >> >>
> >> >> OK. Let's assume for this discussion that your problem isn't bipolar
> >> >> disorder, perhaps triggered or exacerbated by your use of Adderall,
> >> >> and consider alternative explanations of your symptoms:
> >> >>
> >> >> One is that you have another, yet undiagnosed, disorder.
> >> >>
> >> >> Another possibility is that you indeed experienced some of the
> >> >> symptoms of chronic Adderall overdosing, including amphetamine
> >> >> psychosis.
> >> >>
> >> >> As you have pointed out in another post, Adderall's prescribing info
> >> >> for ADHD says, "Only in rare cases will it be necessary to exceed a
> >> >> total of 40 mg/day."
> >> >>
> >> >> OK, suppose you are one of those "rare cases" in which exceeding 40
> >> >> mg/day was "necessary". (In fact, given what you've said about your
> >> >> reaction to 60 mg/day of Adderall, I'd say that the evidence suggests
> >> >> that you are not one of those rare cases.)
> >> >>
> >> >> (Query: How did your doctor determine that such a high dose was
> >> >> "necessary" or that you were a "high metabolizer?" Did he titrate your
> >> >> dosage over time, or simply start you at 60 mg/day? BTW, body weight
> >> >> is pretty much irrelevant WRT Adderall dosing. Someone weighing 250
> >> >> pounds might do well on 10 mg/day, while another person weighing 100
> >> >> pounds might need 30 mg/day for effective treatment.)
> >> >>
> >> >> The prescribing info for Adderall says:
> >> >>
> >> >> "OVERDOSAGE: Individual patient response to amphetamines varies
> >> >> widely. While toxic symptoms occasionally occur as an idiosyncrasy at
> >> >> doses as low as 2 mg, they are rare with doses of less than 15 mg. 30
> >> >> mg can produce severe reactions..."
> >> >>
> >> >> And, you were taking 60 mg. So, the prescribing info certainly
> >> >> indicates that toxic symptoms and severe reactions are possible at the
> >> >> dose you were taking.
> >> >>
> >> >> Still, it seems to me that 60 mg/day, while higher than the amounts
> >> >> typically prescribed for ADHD, would not be an overdose for
> >> >> *everyone*, as 60 mg/day is the maximum recommended dosage for
> >> >> narcolepsy.
> >> >>
> >> >> So, if you did indeed become addicted to Adderall at 60 mg/day, that
> >> >> apparently isn't the case for everyone that takes that amount.
> >> >>
> >> >> As John Clarke has pointed out, some people can have atypical, very
> >> >> serious adverse reactions to just about anything, even in very small
> >> >> amounts. But once such an adverse reaction occurs, the prudent person
> >> >> avoids further exposure to whatever caused the adverse reaction.
> >> >>
> >> >> Whether because of ignorance, immaturity, or willful disregard of the
> >> >> negative effects because you liked some of the more enjoyable effects,
> >> >> it seems to me that you didn't act prudently WRT Adderall.
> >> >>
> >> >> If the purpose of your posts is to encourage others to act more
> >> >> prudently than you did, and to point out the serious consequences of
> >> >> failing to explain in detail to your doctor (and, if you are a child
> >> >> or teenager, your parents) how *any* medication is affecting you, you
> >> >> could have stated that purpose more clearly.
> >> >>
> >> >> If your purpose is to warn others that, as the prescribing information
> >> >> indicates, taking Adderall even as prescribed can, in some rare cases,
> >> >> produce some very serious side effects (as can be said of probably any
> >> >> medication) or to advise others to take the time to read the
> >> >> prescribing info for the medications they take, once again, you could
> >> >> have been clearer.
> >> >>
> >> >> OTOH, if your purpose is to scare people from taking Adderall as
> >> >> prescribed for the treatment of ADHD at any dosage, which is what the
> >> >> wording and information in your posts leads me to believe is
> >> >> your actual purpose, IMO, you haven't presented a convincing case so
> >> >> far. Not only was the amount you took in excess of what most people
> >> >> are prescribed, but even at 60 mg/day, your experience may not be
> >> >> typical.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Nancy
> >> >> Unique, like everyone else
> >> >
> >> > As I said in another post, I was completely honest with my doctor. I
> >> > thought it was doing exactly what it was supposed to, as it gave me an
> >> > unnatural well of motivation and happiness. It is kind of hard to
> >> > recognize a prescription is getting you high, when 1) I had never been
> >> > high when I started the adderall 2)
> >> > It is kind of hard when you are high to recognize it and 3) your
> >> > doctor is insisting that the drug is safe. I feel you are trying to
> >> > insinuate that this is me or my parents fault somehow, and I will not
> >> > have it.
> >> >
> >> > With respect to your query about how I got up to 60 mg a day. I was
> >> > slowly brought up to that level over a period of about 4 months.
> >>
> >> Did he ask you how you were doing before he increased the dose? If so,
> >> what did you tell him before you got to 60?
> >
> > I was seeing him every month for the four months in which the dosage
> > was steadily raised.
>
> But what questions was he asking you and what answers were you giving?
It was usually the "any complaints?" or "how are you doing?" line. I
had no complaints and was doing great, mainly because I was high and
because I had never been high in my life up to that point, thought I
was just happy for some other reason.
>
> >> > I feel like I am meeting a lot of resistance to the idea that
> >> > something like this is posssible under a reputable doctor's
> >> > supervision.
> >>
> >> Personally I have no trouble believing it happened. But I would question
> >> how "reputable" a doctor who _let_ it happen might be.
> >
> > He was the head doctor in a 5 doctor clinic complete with PA's running
> > all over the place. As I said before he had been published many times
> > and had testified in insanity defense trials.
>
> This does not make him competent. A friend of mine sued a senior researcher
> at Yale over a bad medical decision that he made, and she won. The fact
> that he runs a clinic does not mean that he is a capable physician, only
> that he can draw in business.
He also used to be a professor at a university. The main point is,
everyone that we spoke to in our area thought highly of his abilities.
Their only reservation was that he was not much of a people person.
>
> >> > But the bottom line is this. The problems we tried to
> >> > fix with the adderall were nothing compared to the problems that came
> >> > later, as a direct result of it (my data point for that statement is
> >> > my current diagnosis of amphetamine psychosis, this is not my opinion,
> >> > it is just the condition I have). Maybe some people need the
> >> > medicine, but I was not one of them obviously.
> >>
> >> Did you function better when you were on it?
> >
> > No, I thought I was, but my parents were well aware, even though I was
> > living at a residential school that I was as bad as I ever was at
> > executive functions (i.e. getting things done).
>
> Was your doctor made aware of this?
Yes. And BTW no, I have no idea why he insisted I stay on the
adderall.
>
> >> > It was prescribed
> >> > anyway, and that is what makes me concerned about the current state of
> >> > things.
> >>
> >> Instead of railing about the current state of things, tell your story to
> >> a
> >> lawyer and see if he thinks you've got a case. What you're describing is
> >> _not_ the normal state of affairs.
> >>
> >> > Spencer
> >
> > I am sorry that you consider this to be one giant rant but this is all
> > partly to warn people about the powerful effects this drug can have on
> > certain individuals.
>
> That is not the way it is coming across.
I don't know what to say to that other than to suggest to anyone to
take from what I say what you will. Just remember it happened.
Spencer