What If Einstein Had Taken Ritalin?
MrPepper11
February 3, 2005
What If Einstein Had Taken Ritalin?
ADHD's Impact on Creativity
By JEFF ZASLOW
In American schools these days, countless class clowns are sitting down
and shutting up. In chemistry labs, students who used to mix chemicals
haphazardly, out of an insatiable curiosity, now focus on their
textbooks. In English classes, kids who once stared out the windows,
concocting crazy life stories about passersby, now face the blackboard.
Ritalin and other drugs for attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder
have helped many children improve their focus and behavior -- to the
great relief of parents and teachers. But ADHD support groups offer
long lists of out-of-the-box thinkers who had classic ADHD traits such
as impulsivity, a penchant for day-dreaming, and disorganized lives.
Among those who are believed to have had the disorder: Thomas Edison,
Albert Einstein, Salvador Dali, Winston Churchill.
The question is whether the Ritalin Revolution will sap tomorrow's work
force of some of its potential genius. What will be the repercussions
in corporations, comedy clubs, and research labs?
Some researchers now wonder if would-be Einsteins and Edisons will
choose different career paths because their creativity and drive are
dulled by ADHD drugs. They also worry that the stigma of being labeled
with ADHD could lead some kids to lose confidence, and dream smaller
dreams.
This concern comes as more parents are being forced to weigh the
sometimes dramatic benefits of ADHD drugs against the unknown that
accompanies any new generation of treatment. As many as 12% of kids
today have been labeled with ADHD, and the number of kids'
prescriptions for ADHD drugs, including Strattera and Adderall, rose
23% between 2000 and 2003, according to the latest figures from Medco
Health Solutions Inc. ADHD drug prescriptions for pre-schoolers were up
49%.
A person who focuses better taking Ritalin can be "like a horse with
blinders, plodding along. He's moving forward, getting things done, but
he's less open to inspiration," says Lara Honos-Webb, a psychologist at
Santa Clara University. In her new book, due out next month and titled
"The Gift of ADHD," she identifies "gifts" that often accompany the
disorder, including creativity, exuberance and intuition. She believes
ADHD drugs temper these traits.
But others who treat ADHD argue that when children are given
appropriate drug regimens, they become far more capable. "God knows
what Einstein would have accomplished had he been diagnosed and
treated," says Wilma Fellman, a career counselor who helps clients with
ADHD.
It's too early for there to be long-term career studies about today's
Ritalin generation. And certainly, many who take Ritalin say it helps;
some describe it as quieting the circus in the room. Still, a lot of
adults who've excelled as entrepreneurs, performers, politicians and
communicators trace their successes to their ADHD.
In seventh grade in the late 1970s, Erich Muller was such a class clown
that his teachers actually sentenced him to more days of detention than
there were days in the school year. They had a cubicle-like enclosure
built atop his desk to keep his eyes from wandering. They said he
should be on Ritalin. His parents refused.
"As a kid, I'd see a thousand different things in every cloud," says
Mr. Muller. "Teachers told my parents I was 'too creative.' Too
creative like who? Picasso?" He now goes by the name "Mancow," and,
based in Chicago, is one of the nation's highest-paid radio
personalities.
David Neeleman, CEO of JetBlue Airways, never took drugs for his ADHD,
and is now an advocate for kids with the disorder. He says ADHD helps
him think unconventionally, and he worries that if he took medication,
he'd be like everyone else. He has found techniques to concentrate
better, while hiring others to handle organizational details. He is
credited with inventing the electronic airline ticket, which was in
part an effort to help people with the classic ADHD trait of
forgetfulness.
Too many kids, especially boys who are merely rambunctious, are being
given the drugs with just cursory evaluations, says William Pollack, an
assistant clinical professor at Harvard Medical School.
In his ongoing research into boyhood, Dr. Pollack has found anecdotal
evidence that Ritalin renders some kids less interested in pursuing
creative opportunities. One boy he studied had been active in his
school's science club. After he was put on Ritalin, he felt like the
spark inside him was extinguished. He lost interest in the science club
and dropped out. Eventually, he stopped taking Ritalin, returned to the
club, and developed a flashlight alarm system that won a major science
competition.
Another subject in Dr. Pollack's research is a math whiz in his 40s who
was hyperactive as a child. As an adult, the man earned several hundred
million dollars developing computer technology. "His ideas come to him
in a flash," explains Dr. Pollack. "He feels that if he had been given
Ritalin as a child, he'd have just ended up as a teaching assistant in
some science course."
This man did try Ritalin recently because his wife said his
hyperactivity was hurting their marriage. But he found the drug stifled
his thinking. He's now trying behavioral techniques to be calmer at
home.
ADHD drugs are good for patching up weaknesses, not enhancing
strengths, says Dr. Honos-Webb. "If your parents want you to be a
lawyer, maybe these drugs can help you do that." But she believes a
child on Ritalin is less likely to be the next great dot-com pioneer or
even a Robin Williams-like comic.
She wishes more parents would see their kids' futures in less-rigid
terms. "Spaciness," she insists, "is a path to inspiration."
MrPepper11
Twittering One
_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows.
But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo
Raving Loonie
.... amazing.
the Raving Loonie
Raving Loonie
....just stoking up the old cognitive furnace. Good afternoon!
R.L.
Velvet Elvis
Well. If einstein had taken Ritalin, he probably would have been able
to finish school.
Unlike during Einstein's time, today one's resume and CV are more
important than one's ability. Einstein would never have been allowed in
a university classroom because he couldn't sit still long enough to take
the SAT.
A genius is useless to society if they are stuck working at Burger King.
Raving Loonie
Your search -
alt.chilli.pepper.relativity-makes.ritalin-quakes.salt-shakes - did not
match any documents.
Suggestions:
- Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
- Try different keywords.
- Try more general keywords.
- Try fewer keywords.
- Try your search on Google Web Search.
Also, you can try Google Answers for expert help with your search.
Shall we create this group?
How to ADD 'spice' to your cooking. <<<shake>>>,<<<shake>>>,<<<shake>>>
R.L.
Raving Loonie
Good idea!
... stirs the pot, very well "indeed"!
.. or stops it cold. Stop.
A professional "spin doctor", perhaps?
... if NOT, then the possibility of a smooth 'career' path ???
Does Mr. "peeper" 11
every return?
and back to your 'sponsor'
...............What If Einstein Had Taken Ritalin?
- R. <<<<shake>>>> & |||||| bake ||||| "Loonie"
ADD working the way it should! ( ... with Ritalin too !!! )
Raving Loonie
Twittering One
Good idea!
... stirs the pot, very well "indeed"!
.. or stops it cold. Stop.
A professional "spin doctor", perhaps?
Does Mr. "peeper" 11
every return?
and back to your 'sponsor'
...............What If Einstein Had Taken Ritalin?
~ So many
Knots, now. How many months? Who's steering?
Are we nearing Anchorage?
Huh?
O.
Uh O.
Who knew?
Who's new?
What's that?
O, and by the way,
That grrl on the floor, over there,
Who's that? Her body,
O, dear,
Now measures room temperature!
Or, just see ~
"The Inadvertant News
Solution"
A forthcoming
Book Clube sensitively selected
Queen Nefertiti sensatonal
Seduction* ...
[Pssst ~ Beware that Walking Void's
Suction. His Penis Enlarger
Sucks, but works!]
________
* Or just visit the Egyptian Wing.
~ * ~
Twittering One
... if NOT, then the possibility of a
~ Raving
Or, perhaps a heckling Victor, or a smoothable
Curve ball
Pitched from nightbat?
Or perhaps ~
"There is only the weather,
Which changes but is not increased. As with the weather,
So with time, which we note as changes and could not
Note without changes, the light and the darkness,
Movement, growth and decline, the various temporary
Hungers and revulsions. The sum of the changes
As it increases over really long periods becomes increasingly
Meaningless, has a kind of static resistance
By which the additions make, not more and more,
But only whatever it was that we
Started out with. There is a quirk to counting,
Which is a linear progression, which reminds us
Of the great bending force bringing us back
Again to our starting point in any attempt
To lay a straight and level line accumulating inch by inch
Along the earth."
~ William Bronk,
From "Vectors and Smoothable Curves"
[p. 19]
Got that?!
That's the way it is folks!
So now, alas, a round
Of Cokes! Cheers!*****************& ? / *
Twittering One
That's the way it is folks!
So now, alas, a round
Of Cokes!
But O,
What are years?
Raving Loonie
quoting joni MitchelL ( from the bootlegger. )
"...Things go better with Coca Cola.
Things go better with Coke"
Twittering One
~ Raving
Boots? That prancing
Black & white Border Collie,
Michael's, from those good old days,
When days hurt so much?
When nothing you say now
To me will make up for what you did
To me?
A Pepsi Generation ...
Twittering One
Things go better with Coke"
Traitor,
Michael's no family of mine.
Raving Loonie
Suction. His Penis Enlarger
Sucks, but works!]
: x ~
medomalacuphobia
or see the link below ( because dic. .com cannot help you with this
problem )
http://www.changethatsrightnow.com/shortdescriptionlist.asp?phobiaid=1671
Raving Loonie
www.baxterbulletin.com
Raving Loonie
.... is Mr. "Peeper" impressed?
I don't suppose that we will ever know.
the Loon
tada...@yahoo.com
Neeleman and Einstein are/were both coffee drinkers.
And caffeine is a pretty effective ADHD drug according
to a number of studies. Of course, the effects of
Ritalin are different from caffeine in many ways, but
it shows that people are paranoid about the
creativity-impact of one drug that causes increased
focus while totally ignoring another.
tada...@yahoo.com
paper on his theory of relativity. He was a patent clerk when he wrote
it.
One could do that sort of thing today, I believe, but I cannot think
of an example.
Vashti
Damn! We could have had FTL travel by now! ;)
Vashti
Twittering One
"Peeper" impressed?"
O, you who! Ms.
Erica Jong, please come on down ~ C'est,
Moi! Cleis!
PS. That Zipless Fuck?
Like, I know what this is now!
Took 30 years, but yeah,
I got it. Geeezz, talk about Occult
Knowledge?!
Raving Loonie
~ Raviving
Jeff
"MrPepper11" <MrPep...@go.com> wrote in message
news:1107453568....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Wall Street Journal
> February 3, 2005
> The question is whether the Ritalin Revolution will sap tomorrow's work
> force of some of its potential genius. What will be the repercussions
> in corporations, comedy clubs, and research labs?
Can you provide any evidence taht Ritalin and other ADHD decrease
creativity? Perhaps, had Einstein taken Ritalin, he would have been even
more productive and creative.
The repercussions appear to include more focus and productive people.
Jeff
00doc
> Wall Street Journal
> February 3, 2005
>
> What If Einstein Had Taken Ritalin?
Probably nothing. There is no credible evidence that he had
ADHD. The stuff about him being a poor student and failing
math is a myth.
If he did have ADHD and took Ritalin then we may have a
unified theory of everything.
There is no evidence that Ritalin diminishes creativity. If
anything it would help the creative types stay off the
street drugs they seem so prone to and be more productive in
their creativity.
--
00doc
Brunibus
is their attachment to the condition - and their wish NOT to be cured.
Since ADD is currently incurable and sufferers cannot know what it is not to
be afflicted, it begs the question of why they're so attached to the
condition.
And several things spring to mind : -
1) - They believe that ADD DEFINES them.
This is a fallacy. It defines them no more than drunkenness defines
the alcoholic. It's just another state of consciousness or being - a
superimposition on the core.
2) - Fear of what they believe may be the inferiority of the neurotypical
condition.
Another fallacy, based upon fear of the unknown. Until both states
have been experienced, judgements - objective and subjective - cannot be
made.
3) - A defiant knee-jerk reaction.
Born of the oppositionality engendered in ADDers, by society's
constant criticism and rejection of them - an aspect if you will, of
oppositional-defiant disorder.
Ultimately, ADD is a debilitating disability - albeit not an ENTIRELY
negative one. But to suppose that ADD forms the basis of creativity is
IMNSHO, very mistaken. There can be little doubt that ADD 'allows' the ADDer
to think non-linearly - but while non-linear thought can result in flashes
of creativity born of its randomness - it is as a modus pensi, simply too
unproductive to produce very much SUSTAINED creative output.
ADDers are perceived as more creative because they are less productive
in areas requiring sustained, organised and linear mental processing.
<Dons fire-retardant suit and stands back>
"MrPepper11" <MrPep...@go.com> wrote in message
news:1107453351....@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Raving Loonie
R. L.
Probert@lumbercartel.com Mark Probert
<tada...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1107466642.2...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
You cannot think of an example because one cannot do that sort of thing
today. The academic system is designed to prevent it.
Probert@lumbercartel.com Mark Probert
"Jeff" <kidsd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ctuko1$p...@library1.airnews.net...
I hypothesize that if Einstein had taken Ritalin, he would have been able to
pay more attention and would have been able to finish his unified field
theory. As such, because he was unmedicated, his UFT is not unified.
tada...@yahoo.com
relavant data on the mathematician Paul Erdos:
from the book The Man Who Loved Only Numbers by Paul Hoffman.
Paul Erdös "put in nineteen-hour days, keeping himself fortified with
10 to 20 milligrams of Benzedrine or Ritalin, strong espresso and
caffeine tablets. 'A mathematician,' Erdös was fond on saying,
'is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.'" Once, a friend
bet Erdös $500 that he could not quit amphetamines for a month. Erdös
took the bet and won, but, during his time of abstinence, he found
himself incapable of doing any serious work. "You've set mathematics
back a month," he told his friend when he collected, and immediately
returned to his pills.
00doc
that if Einstein was diagnosed with ADHD that he would have been harmed
by rather than benefitted from treatment.
--
00doc
00doc
year old girl. She had some help but she still had to be as much of an
academic outsider as there ever was.
I think the real reasons are two-fold.
1) It is harder for someone who is not academically trained and
affiliated to submit a paper worthy of publication. This is both
because the journals have become more rigorous in what they expect,
both in format and methods, and because the number of simple things
that can be looked at by a person doing home experiments is dwindling.
A stop watch and a tower or a (home made) micrscope and some tap water
just won't cut it anymore.
2) Education is more available. At least in the Western world,
education is affordable for the middle (working) class and even for a
brilliant lower class person there are usually scholarships and other
opportunities. I think there are just not as many academically inclined
geniuses shut out of the sytem as there used to be.
--
00doc
Chris Malcolm
In the UK it certainly isn't. I'm led to believe that in the US
they're much fiercer about having exactly the right kind of CV and
much less willing to make exceptions based on merit such as having
published excellent research even though you didn't have the usual
qualifications.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Justin
"MrPepper11" <MrPep...@go.com> wrote in message
news:1107453568....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Wall Street Journal
> February 3, 2005
>
> ADHD's Impact on Creativity
> By JEFF ZASLOW
>
Einstein had ADHD? Hmmm... I spose this follows the same logic that
cause people to think that Mozart and about every other genius had it as
well.
Does writting over 600 compositions by the age of 35 sound like
something that someone with a chronic ability to procrastinate and be
distracted would do?
For every ADHD "genius", there is an ADHD "bum" sitting in the slammer.
There are also plenty of people that have many of the personaity traits
that people with ADHD oftern have. This, however, does not make them
ADHD.
Perhaps we all need to remember what ADHD stands for? And remember that
it is a disorder, not a gift? Perhaps some of the traits that are common
with ADHD can be considered gifts. But the key part of the disorder is
hardly a gift to most of the people with it. It's a dead weight.
Cheers, Justin.
Raving Loonie
"One thing that appears to characterise the OVERWHELMING majority of
ADDers is their attachment to the condition - and their wish NOT to be
cured. Since ADD is currently incurable and sufferers cannot know what
it is not to be afflicted, it begs the question of why they're so
attached to the condition.
And several things spring to mind : - "
...and goes on to have written...
"... to suppose that ADD forms the basis of creativity is
IMNSHO, very mistaken."
It is the Raving Loonie's opinion that the reason that many of those
with ADD are fondly 'attached' to their condition is thus:
A person with ADD is aquainted with it's benefits and is dismayed that
such benefits are disregarded and rejected. A person with ADD is
frutrated by being less adept at mustering those ADD skills than would
,<otherwise> personaly be 'desired'.
If Brunibus has ADD and has met others who are 'known' to have "ADD",
it would be expected that Brunibus would recognize people of
"like-mindedness". If Brunibus considers in an "operative" sense that
such 'affiliation' is ..."no more than drunkenness defines the
alcoholic", then the "Raving Loonie" would also agree.
Nevertheless, whereas most people can be brought to a state of aloholic
intoxication and eventual dependency, the Raving Loonie is unaware of
an elixir which has the 'generic' capacity to bring about a state of
"ADD consiousness".
When Brunibus points out that:
"ADDers are perceived as more creative because they are less productive
in areas requiring sustained, organised and linear mental processing";
..... the Raving Loonie would agree.
When Brunibus also points out that:
"There can be little doubt that ADD 'allows' the ADDer to think
non-linearly - "
...then it is clear to the "Raving Loonie" that "Brunibus" at least,
has missed the 'obvious'.
This "obviousness" being ....
"Nonlinear ADD style" information processing is far more efficient than
the 'so called' .... "sustained, organised and linear mental
processing."
The "Raving Loonie" fondly recalls the following 'weak minded' example
of "Sustained, organised and linear ****** processing.":
_________________________________
Artificial Intelligence:
If one monkey can type out a 'Shakespearian manuscript' in a day then a
million monkeys typing away for 2 years can produce almost a billion
'Shakespearian manuscript's.
Monkey's are "cheap" and this is a SINGLE nonlinear example of "linear
ramping" in a scattered and then gathered "Parallel Processing"
environment.
__________________________________
The "Raving Loonie" reticently recalls another 'weak minded' example of
"Sustained, organised and linear ****** processing.":
___________________________________
Academia & "Research":
1) The appropriate method for gaining 'recognition' and the 'funding'
which is eventually "encumbent" upon such is to publish in a reputable
"grade 1 or 2" journal.
2) Embracing both a recognized protocol and 'formalistic' research
methodology which has already been demonstrated to be effective is
prudent. It can be relied upon to manufacture a stream of superior
"published" quanta at a constant rate.
3) Those who adhere to the first two tenets achieve "tenure",
recognition, funding, and a successful, productive career. ... They
would have good reason to believe that "may be the SUPERIOR of the
neurotypical
condition."
___________________________________
The "Raving Loonie" wishes to point out that the previously two
aforementioned examples are analogous convergent processes.
Thus spake "Hyperbole"
... a distinctly nonlinear "outlook".
=============================================================
Brunibus points out:
"I've plonked Twittering One and Raving Loonie, as neither appear to be
particularly well - and fill the NG with what appears to be complete
and
utter BOLLOCKS !
What are these people doing out of hospital, FFS ? "
Brunibus also points out that "Brunibus" fully expects an emotional
backlash in response to his "posting":
... Brunibus says "<Dons fire-retardant suit and stands back>"
If Brunibus were familiar with an academic environment then Brunibus
would recognize that the response provided, herein, is a 'reasoned'
one. It is unecessary and pointless to "suit up" in protective garmetry
in such 'situations'. An appeal to the 'emotions' does not work well.
Academics, unsurprisingly are as human as everyone else. Hence, after
concluding their enthusiastic but otherwise dispassionate 'exercise' in
scholarly "one-upmanship", they have regrettably and occasionally been
"known" to 'cap' the sporting event by placing a 'cherry' on top of the
spectacle!
Such "coronation" might be to call "Brunibus", a fatuous ass.
The "Raving Loonie", however, recognizes that a term like 'fatuous ass'
is a key-phrase for dysfunctional conditions such as "Narcissism'.
The "Raving Loonie" is also painfully "aware" that many of those who
are 'percieved' as being "narcissistic" are hurt by feeling that they
are being misconstrued. In the "Raving Loonie"s opinion, "this" often
happens to someone who has ADD.
The "Raving Loonie" does NOT consider "Brunibus" to be a 'fatuous ass',
notwistanding all "appearance" to the contrary.
Insofar as Brunibus seems to be "attached to the condition" - and
Brunibus's "wish" NOT to be cured of Brunibus's "CONDITION", Brunibus
has chosen to 'filter out' Raving Loonie's "sympathetic" response.
Accordingly, it would be 'appreciated' that <others> of
"like-mindedness" with the Raving Loonie" would forward this message of
'condolence' onward to Brunibus.
Finally, the "Raving Loonie" wishes to point out that simon rickaby
over at
wrote -
"Ah! such flattery. The NG's are full of people just like me, but
chances are
the 'likes of which the world has yet to see' are being worked on, not
by
people writing in NG's, but those writing for publication. "
It would seem that simon does not have ADD. For the moment, it would be
'preferable' to wash one's dirty laundry at home.
the Raving Loonie
Probert@lumbercartel.com Mark Probert
"00doc" <00...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1107537422.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
Bob Kaplow
> Einstein had ADHD? Hmmm... I spose this follows the same logic that
> cause people to think that Mozart and about every other genius had it as
> well.
> Does writting over 600 compositions by the age of 35 sound like
> something that someone with a chronic ability to procrastinate and be
> distracted would do?
Yup. Hyperfocus in narrow areas of interest is common.
> Perhaps we all need to remember what ADHD stands for? And remember that
> it is a disorder, not a gift? Perhaps some of the traits that are common
> with ADHD can be considered gifts. But the key part of the disorder is
> hardly a gift to most of the people with it. It's a dead weight.
Properly applied, it is a gift, not a disorder. Something that fell out of a
recent conversation on the subject is that ADDers don't have ADD, but the
rest of the population has "Boredom Tolerance Disorder"...
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
We must have faith in our democratic system and our Constitution,
and in our ability to protect at the same time both the freedom and
the security of all Americans.
Emma Anne
> So what if Einstein had taken Ritalin?
>
> Damn! We could have had FTL travel by now! ;)
>
>
LOL!
Julian9EHP
"What if?" is an easy game.
E. P.
Justin
"Bob Kaplow" <kapl...@encompasserve.org.TRABoD> wrote in message
news:ohUx2W...@eisner.encompasserve.org...
> In article <4203b6cf$1...@clear.net.nz>, "Justin"
<ne...@soupisgoodfood.network> writes:
> > Einstein had ADHD? Hmmm... I spose this follows the same logic that
> > cause people to think that Mozart and about every other genius had
it as
> > well.
> > Does writting over 600 compositions by the age of 35 sound like
> > something that someone with a chronic ability to procrastinate and
be
> > distracted would do?
>
> Yup. Hyperfocus in narrow areas of interest is common.
>
> > Perhaps we all need to remember what ADHD stands for? And remember
that
> > it is a disorder, not a gift? Perhaps some of the traits that are
common
> > with ADHD can be considered gifts. But the key part of the disorder
is
> > hardly a gift to most of the people with it. It's a dead weight.
>
> Properly applied, it is a gift, not a disorder. Something that fell
out of a
> recent conversation on the subject is that ADDers don't have ADD, but
the
> rest of the population has "Boredom Tolerance Disorder"...
You can say that properly applied, it is a gift. But then you are only
using the good traits that appear in ADHD. The bad traits, and the main
trait can hardly be called gifts, and therefore are still a disorder if
it affects the persons life enough.
Put it this way: If you find a way to properly apply it, then you don't
really have an ADHD anymore, right?
p fogg
news:20050204161948...@mb-m28.aol.com...
> If Einstein had taken Ritalin, then both begins with a B. ;-)
>
> "What if?" is an easy game.
>
>
> E. P.
I wanna play! Um... If Burt Bacharach had smoked a pipe, then dogs are
furry.
Jeff
"Raving Loonie" <frogwa...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1107542786.5...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Brunibus wrote -
>
> "One thing that appears to characterise the OVERWHELMING majority of
> ADDers is their attachment to the condition - and their wish NOT to be
> cured. Since ADD is currently incurable and sufferers cannot know what
> it is not to be afflicted, it begs the question of why they're so
> attached to the condition.
Could you please give us to the reference that shows that most people with
ADHD do not wish to treated?
Thanks.
Jeff
J. Clarke
> If Einstein had taken Ritalin, then both begins with a B. ;-)
>
> "What if?" is an easy game.
If Einstein had taken Ritalin then maybe he'd have seen past Relativity to
the Unified Field that he was seeking when he died, and we'd have
interstellar travel by now.
The trouble with the "what if x had taken Ritalin" game is that it assumes
facts not in evidence, i.e. that x would have been less productive or
creative on Ritalin.
It's pure and transparent propaganda in other words.
> E. P.
--
--John
Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Bob Kaplow
> You can say that properly applied, it is a gift. But then you are only
> using the good traits that appear in ADHD. The bad traits, and the main
> trait can hardly be called gifts, and therefore are still a disorder if
> it affects the persons life enough.
> Put it this way: If you find a way to properly apply it, then you don't
> really have an ADHD anymore, right?
A large percentage of the upper end of our society are ADD / ADHD. It's
common among trial lawyers, several medical specialties, inventors,
entrepreneurs, politicians, outside sales, entertainers, and many other
areas. Not among CPAs.
The downside is that it's also common among the chronically unemployed or
underemployed, drug abusers (self medication?), and in prisons. People with
ADD drift to the edge of society: either rising to the top if they learn to
cope and deal with it, or sinking to the bottom.
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
I support drug testing. I believe every public official should be given a
shot of sodium pentathol and ask "Which laws have you broken this week?".
Twittering One
time,
and amount of objects?
[Bite. Bite. Bite.]
What if my mind created the objects?"
~ Bert
"Then we would say,
'Hallowed be thy name.'"
~ Double-A
Or...
BOO!
Happy Halloween!
Trick or treat?
O, mais oui ~ Dr.
Edward Hallowell, come on down! Dr.
Ratey's already invited...Just please ~ Drive Us to Further Dis-
Traction, with plenty of traction!
Raving Loonie
It was Brunibus who wrote -
"One thing that appears to characterise the OVERWHELMING majority of
ADDers is their attachment to the condition - and their wish NOT to be
cured. "
Specifically, you have tagged your request under my posting rather than
that of Brunibus's statement, clearly and explicitly indicating that
it was Brunibus who wrote it.
I did not 'assert' this.
I cannot "answer" for Brunibus.
Insofar as Brunibus has publically announced that I am 'blocked', I
would suggest that you email Brunibus a copy of my response under cover
of your name , in the hope that Brunibus might 'assist' me in providing
what you "request".
Given Brunibus's "declared" animosity for me, I feel somewhat confused.
I am somewhat in agreement with Brunibus's viewpoint and have said so
in the past. For example, I have colorfully reffered those who frequent
this NG a bunch of "Candy Ass's".
If indeed, Brunibus has ADD, then the act of 'blocking' me supports the
notion that Brunibus is 'attached' to ADD and does NOT wish to be
'cured' of Brunibus's condition. Hence, Brunibus avoids treatment.
This sounds to me like an "alcoholic who denies that they are an
'alcoholic.
=========================================================
Nevertheless, your question is too carefully placed and presented for
me to believe that you seek such a plainly "crude" answer. I can be
both more 'subtle' & 'simple'.
In an earlier posting, I listed 10 attributes that "the rest of the
world" casually associates with the ADD "sufferer"
Ann thoughtfully, emotionally and honestly replied to me in:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.support.attn-deficit/messages/64e51a03a53fa11a,4121cc8252ac66c8,eed1ca3d838f8d09,fc17b7e668a7f39f,6d51088f077d6e83,c059d1533297bb2b,3d8443a5bbdcc813,be8d26fcfca9a228,55b819f6b5a9fc96,ab895d38063a43ca?thread_id=5f473936c0a5c59f&mode=thread&noheader=1#doc_6d51088f077d6e83
Early this morning the { 'subtle' & 'simple' } peered back at me
through the blue tinged 'flourescence'. I draw your 'attention' to the
following small section of Ann's response:
">6) People with ADD are unable to 'Control' themselves ...
Sometimes. Impulsivity comes in here. You can learn to control
yourself, though
>7) People with ADD are 'handicapped'
Bullshit.
>8) People with ADD lack "Social Skills"
Many times this is true. "
I zoom in further:
"
>7) People with ADD are 'handicapped'
Bullshit.
"
Do you see that? ... the pure 'emotion' and flat outright 'rejection'?
B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T
Seems to me to be "in denial" that people with ADD are handicapped.
Isn't it "funny" how people 'round bout these parts are so damned
INSISTENT that ADD is NOT a 'defect'.
Take "Rocket Man" for example, our 'trusty' frequenter who resolutely
and consistently goes aroiund leaving his mark! ( for which I provide a
recent example)
" Properly applied, it is a gift, not a disorder. Something that fell
out of a
recent conversation on the subject is that ADDers don't have ADD,
but the
rest of the population has "Boredom Tolerance Disorder"...
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"
>>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle:
http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf
www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org
www.nar.org "
Personally, Bob is my man. I happen to agree with him.
On the other hand, it's easy enough to argue that Bob is in "denial".
Right?
I suppose that Bob is also a bit of an embarresment too. .. Oh, not as
big an eyesore as the "Raving Loonie". ...That's obvious!
Bob is 'nicely' embarresing. Polite about it too!
_______________
There are other things which I have noticed.
I don't live in "America" like the "Americans". Nope. I am a Canadian (
which is a place way up north and out of 'sight' of "America" ).
I have NEVER heard the term "pdoc" before visiting this newsgroup. For
quite a while, I imagined that pdoc meant "Post Doc" as in a person who
had a PhD and was continuing with further research in the hope of
becoming a professor ( prof ).
I thought that 'pdoc' was something like a "post doctoral nurse
practitioner", assuming that there is such a beast ???
pdoc is such a nice word. .... all smiley, smiley :> :>
Sort of reminded me of that other nice patronizing word which I hate so
much
"meds" = medicine = " ...let's not 'think' about the uglies shall we.
Shut up and take it. ... or we will FORCE IT into you". Right?
consult your 'pdoc' ... as in PSYCHIATRIC DOCTOR.
Hell, they can't even say PSYCHIATRIST. ... It's so f*cking
embarassing. Right?
Nope. ... people 'round bout these parts don't even want to know that
pdocs exist.
It seems to me that people with ADD are super, super, super "sensitive"
to it being a HANDICAP, ILLNESS, MENTAL DEFECT, ... MENTAL
RETARDATION
Right?
=====================================================
I do find this to be very 'strange' about ADD. ... To myself, at
least, the ADD cognitive "temprement" is unique in it's insecurity
about being a handicap and it's INSISTENCE NOTWITHSTANING OTHERWISE
that it is NOT a defect.
Once, I met a Schitzophrenic OUTSIDE of a psychiatric hospital. I
didn't ask him anything. He simply told me.
.... Explicitly, he said "They aren't like us. they don't understand".
... It was the way that he said it, that impressed me! ... He said
this with assurance, with self-confidence; with self-acceptance and
"strenght".
In the hospital, I met a bunch of bi-polar types. ... They never
really 'talked' much about being bi-polar or NOT being bi-polar. ...
it just wasn't a big issue. .. Dealing with it was more in the
forefront of their minds.
I am no expert; ..nor have I really much 'experience' with others who
have disabilities, but for all of them, whatever they "were", NONE of
THEM soldiered on bravely, defensively, deftly and adamantly INSISTING
that their so-called disability is an ADVANTAGE.
I consider this to be very significant.
-----------------------------------------------------
Like many I knew the 'traits' of ADD. ... Like many, I revisited the
question over and over ; ... Do I have ADD?
When I saw a T.V. program about it wherein a bunch of disabled loosers
got up and timidly yet vicerally ASSERT ...."yea, it causes problems
BUT I consider it to be the BEST of ME. ... blah..blah ...blah ... more
"looser" talk.
BANG!. ... Exactly THEN; I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had
ADD
======================================================================
... when I refer to those who visit this NG as being 'candy ass'
... when I see myself 'accused' of NOT having ADD because I'm too
screwed up.
... when I hear 'difficulties' deflected and offloaded onto OTHER
co-morbid pathologies
... when I "hear" the pharmacuticals work IMMEDIATELY AND CONTINUE TO
DO SO THEREAFTER FOR A LONG, LONG TIME .. and if that "isn't" so then
there is 'something' wrong ... OR... you AREN'T "ADD"
... when I see myself 'blocked' and tuned out.
How much of this is due to that "feeling" that what is MAKING my LIFE
hell on earth is the RIGHT THING ... and I'm fed up with being viewed
as crazy, lazy, stupid, psychotic ...blah, blah, blah.
All of my life, I have had my ability "dismissed" and thrown back in my
face!
=========================================================================
So when Brunibus writes -
"One thing that appears to characterise the OVERWHELMING majority of
ADDers
is their attachment to the condition - and their wish NOT to be cured.
Since ADD is currently incurable and sufferers cannot know what it is
not to
be afflicted, it begs the question of why they're so attached to the
condition.
And several things spring to mind : - "
be very, very, very careful in answering, inspecting it, understanding
it because it is MOST SUBTLE, most significant, ... there are so many
"meanings" to it.
... and it is time to call it for what it is!
What is it?
I am 'asking'
I am )))listening((((
Jeff, I hope this 'helps',
the Raving Loonie
george of the jungle
wrote:
>In alt.support.attn-deficit Mark Probert <Mark Pro...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>
>> <tada...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:1107466642.2...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>> Actually, Einstein got into the university teaching based on his first
>>> paper on his theory of relativity. He was a patent clerk when he wrote
>>> it.
>>>
>>> One could do that sort of thing today, I believe, but I cannot think
>>> of an example.
>
>> You cannot think of an example because one cannot do that sort of thing
>> today. The academic system is designed to prevent it.
>
Correct.
>In the UK it certainly isn't. I'm led to believe that in the US
>they're much fiercer about having exactly the right kind of CV and
>much less willing to make exceptions based on merit such as having
>published excellent research even though you didn't have the usual
>qualifications.
Brilliant post docs have trouble finding academic jobs. I knew a few
professors with master's degrees but they are retired or dead now.
How many people with no higher education get significant papers
published? The 10 year old girl got published for political reasons,
not the quality of her paper IMO. There's a lot of junk in medical
journals and much medical research (WHI) is poorly designed IMO.
_george
george of the jungle
And if he had done better without the amphetamines he could have
stayed off of them and been more productive. The WSJ should stick to
the stock market.
_george
george of the jungle
<jcl...@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>Julian9EHP wrote:
>
>> If Einstein had taken Ritalin, then both begins with a B. ;-)
>>
>> "What if?" is an easy game.
>
>If Einstein had taken Ritalin then maybe he'd have seen past Relativity to
>the Unified Field that he was seeking when he died, and we'd have
>interstellar travel by now.
>
>The trouble with the "what if x had taken Ritalin" game is that it assumes
>facts not in evidence, i.e. that x would have been less productive or
>creative on Ritalin.
>
It assumes, for one, that Einstein had ADD. That's speculation.
Secondly, it assumes as you wrote, that he couldn't have been even
more productive than he was if things had been different.
>It's pure and transparent propaganda in other words.
>
Yes. If WSJ wants to support more ADD friendly schools I am with
them, but this editorial/article is garbage.
_george
george of the jungle
Kaplow) wrote:
>In article <4203...@clear.net.nz>, "Justin" <ne...@soupisgoodfood.network> writes:
>> You can say that properly applied, it is a gift. But then you are only
>> using the good traits that appear in ADHD. The bad traits, and the main
>> trait can hardly be called gifts, and therefore are still a disorder if
>> it affects the persons life enough.
>> Put it this way: If you find a way to properly apply it, then you don't
>> really have an ADHD anymore, right?
>
>A large percentage of the upper end of our society are ADD / ADHD.
Do you have a reference?
> It's
>common among trial lawyers, several medical specialties, inventors,
>entrepreneurs, politicians, outside sales, entertainers, and many other
>areas. Not among CPAs.
>
>The downside is that it's also common among the chronically unemployed or
>underemployed, drug abusers (self medication?), and in prisons.
I have seen some reference material on this but can't provide refs.
here. Can you?
>People with
>ADD drift to the edge of society: either rising to the top if they learn to
>cope and deal with it, or sinking to the bottom.
This point seems sensible but I would like to see documented evidence.
_george
george of the jungle
wrote:
>
>I have NEVER heard the term "pdoc" before visiting this newsgroup. For
>quite a while, I imagined that pdoc meant "Post Doc" as in a person who
>had a PhD and was continuing with further research in the hope of
>becoming a professor ( prof ).
>
>I thought that 'pdoc' was something like a "post doctoral nurse
>practitioner", assuming that there is such a beast ???
That's a nurse who's over practicing on doctors?
>
>pdoc is such a nice word. .... all smiley, smiley :> :>
>Sort of reminded me of that other nice patronizing word which I hate so
>much
>
>"meds" = medicine = " ...let's not 'think' about the uglies shall we.
>Shut up and take it. ... or we will FORCE IT into you". Right?
>
What meds were you forced to take?
_george
Raving Loonie
And by the way, ... nobody ever forced me to take anything (except
once ... and were they 'surprised'! They didn't think that I had ADD.
Right? )
I've heard that "FORCING" line used on lots of people. I despise the
patronizing tone which is often associated with the 'cute' word "meds".
To put it 'bluntly', it is disrespectful.
You will come to realize, if you don't already 'recognize' "such" that
I am NOT a member of the anti-psychiatry lobby. Quite the opposite,
although I can imagine that it may not seem that way. If I were to be
'flippant' about it I would say that "Picking on a psychiatrist isn't
even 'sporting'. ... that is ALSO real "life". It is also quite sad.
Keep in touch George. I'm sorry that it's painful. Perhaps, it's time
to go to the crux of things. ... "Lord", that's hard enough!
I'll tell you the REAL HARD PART, sir. ... It's DOING SOMETHING, once
you are at that crux.
I can get people there. There is no doubt about that.
....To make it "worthwhile", I need all the help that I can get.
the Raving Loonie
Brunibus
Well, I can't - it's based purely on my own findings.
But they are only anecdotal.
It's refreshing to hear someone with ADD (assuming you do) - not claiming
that it's the best thing since sliced bread.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Jeff
>
Brunibus
> Jeff,
>
> It was Brunibus who wrote -
>
> "One thing that appears to characterise the OVERWHELMING majority of
> ADDers is their attachment to the condition - and their wish NOT to be
> cured. "
>
> Specifically, you have tagged your request under my posting rather than
> that of Brunibus's statement, clearly and explicitly indicating that
> it was Brunibus who wrote it.
>
> I did not 'assert' this.
> I cannot "answer" for Brunibus.
>
> Insofar as Brunibus has publically announced that I am 'blocked', I
> would suggest that you email Brunibus a copy of my response under cover
> of your name , in the hope that Brunibus might 'assist' me in providing
> what you "request".
>
> Given Brunibus's "declared" animosity for me, I feel somewhat confused.
I bear you no animosity.
I just found the quantity of your output disproportionate to the quality.
>
> I am somewhat in agreement with Brunibus's viewpoint and have said so
> in the past.
(To my mother - "Mumma, mumma ... look, someone agreed with me".
This is a rare treat for me and I thank you, RL)
For example, I have colorfully reffered those who frequent
> this NG a bunch of "Candy Ass's".
>
> If indeed, Brunibus has ADD, then the act of 'blocking' me supports the
> notion that Brunibus is 'attached' to ADD and does NOT wish to be
> 'cured' of Brunibus's condition. Hence, Brunibus avoids treatment.
Err ... nothing could be more untrue.
>
> This sounds to me like an "alcoholic who denies that they are an
> 'alcoholic.
> =========================================================
> Nevertheless, your question is too carefully placed and presented for
> me to believe that you seek such a plainly "crude" answer. I can be
> both more 'subtle' & 'simple'.
>
> In an earlier posting, I listed 10 attributes that "the rest of the
> world" casually associates with the ADD "sufferer"
>
>
> Ann thoughtfully, emotionally and honestly replied to me in:
> http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.support.attn-deficit/messages/64e51a03a53fa11a,4121cc8252ac66c8,eed1ca3d838f8d09,fc17b7e668a7f39f,6d51088f077d6e83,c059d1533297bb2b,3d8443a5bbdcc813,be8d26fcfca9a228,55b819f6b5a9fc96,ab895d38063a43ca?thread_id=5f473936c0a5c59f&mode=thread&noheader=1#doc_6d51088f077d6e83
>
> Early this morning the { 'subtle' & 'simple' } peered back at me
> through the blue tinged 'flourescence'. I draw your 'attention' to the
> following small section of Ann's response:
>
> ">6) People with ADD are unable to 'Control' themselves ...
>
> Sometimes. Impulsivity comes in here. You can learn to control
> yourself, though
>
> >7) People with ADD are 'handicapped'
>
> Bullshit.
No, not BS.
It IS a handicap (even if it has supposed upsides) - why else would the
world be looking for drugs to combat it ?
(I tried to follow the rest of your post - but it's just too incoherent)
Brunibus
You da man, Justin.
The "ADHD is a wonderful gift" merchants have no idea how INCREDIBLY
annoying they are.
"Justin" <ne...@soupisgoodfood.network> wrote in message
news:4203b6cf$1...@clear.net.nz...
Brunibus
"Bob Kaplow" <kapl...@encompasserve.org.TRABoD> wrote in message
news:ohUx2W...@eisner.encompasserve.org...
> <ne...@soupisgoodfood.network> writes:
>> Einstein had ADHD? Hmmm... I spose this follows the same logic that
>> cause people to think that Mozart and about every other genius had it as
>> well.
>> Does writting over 600 compositions by the age of 35 sound like
>> something that someone with a chronic ability to procrastinate and be
>> distracted would do?
>
> Yup. Hyperfocus in narrow areas of interest is common.
>
>> Perhaps we all need to remember what ADHD stands for? And remember that
>> it is a disorder, not a gift? Perhaps some of the traits that are common
>> with ADHD can be considered gifts. But the key part of the disorder is
>> hardly a gift to most of the people with it. It's a dead weight.
>
> Properly applied, it is a gift, not a disorder.
What like Leprosy properly enjoyed, isn't a disorder ?
Ann
>It assumes, for one, that Einstein had ADD. That's speculation.
Yep, like the speculation that Lincoln was gay. We can't assume
anything just because it might make 'our' cause look better. Not that
there's anything wrong with being gay, that isn't the point.
Brunibus
"Bob Kaplow" <kapl...@encompasserve.org.TRABoD> wrote in message
> In article <4203...@clear.net.nz>, "Justin" <ne...@soupisgoodfood.network>
> writes:
>> You can say that properly applied, it is a gift. But then you are only
>> using the good traits that appear in ADHD. The bad traits, and the main
>> trait can hardly be called gifts, and therefore are still a disorder if
>> it affects the persons life enough.
>> Put it this way: If you find a way to properly apply it, then you don't
>> really have an ADHD anymore, right?
>
> A large percentage of the upper end of our society are ADD / ADHD.
And a massively disproportionate percentage of jail inmates are ADDers
because ..... ?
You appear to have forgotten the lower end of our society.
And where's you evidence of the upper end being peopled by ADDers ?
You know, like formal diagnoses ?
Can you site ?
Stop deluding yourself.
Acknowledging ADD as a disability won't make it any worse, you know.
Indeed, accepting it for what it IS will help you towards philosophical
equilibrium.
It's
> common among trial lawyers, several medical specialties, inventors,
> entrepreneurs, politicians, outside sales, entertainers, and many other
> areas.
You obviously believe everything you read.
Vashti
> <Dons fire-retardant suit and stands back>
Nah, just get out your straight jacket: I think you've just agreed with
Raving Loonie! ;)
Vashti
Brunibus
"Vashti" <vash...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:36jnopF...@individual.net...
Where are the flames of outrage ?
Or is this the calm before the storm ?
>
>
> Vashti
Vashti
> Well, I can't - it's based purely on my own findings.
> But they are only anecdotal.
> It's refreshing to hear someone with ADD (assuming you do) - not claiming
> that it's the best thing since sliced bread.
Jeff's posting from misc.kids.health, not that precludes him having ADHD
though.
While I may like to slice bread myself(nice thick slices for toasting) I
quite like the convenience of the sliced stuff too. ADHD isn't great but
at times it does seem to be... usually in a group of ADHDers.
Vashti
Vashti
> Where are the flames of outrage ?
You didn't say anything *that* outrageous, did you?
I think most people feel ADHD can be a disadvantage and some choose not
to medicate it for various reasons.
> Or is this the calm before the storm ?
On the other hand it might just be a combination between the time
difference and the general distractedness of ADHDers... ;)
Maybe you'll get a really angry response in 3 weeks time or so? Not
everyone checks the group daily...
Vashti
Brunibus
Don't be silly ... of course they do.
Heh - the very thought.
Silly Vashti.
>
>
> Vashti
Vashti
> Don't be silly ... of course they do.
> Heh - the very thought.
> Silly Vashti.
You're right, how silly of me. I might as well have said ADHDers
sometimes stay away from ASAD for weeks or even *months* at a time.
That'd _never_ happen! ;)
Vashti
Jeff
(...)
> I have NEVER heard the term "pdoc" before visiting this newsgroup. For
> quite a while, I imagined that pdoc meant "Post Doc" as in a person who
> had a PhD and was continuing with further research in the hope of
> becoming a professor ( prof ).
I thought a pDoc was a urologist.
(...)
> It seems to me that people with ADD are super, super, super "sensitive"
> to it being a HANDICAP, ILLNESS, MENTAL DEFECT, ... MENTAL
> RETARDATION
It seems to me that people with ADD are people who have specific behavioral
characteristics, that include impulsivity, poor orgnaizational skills and
poor concentration.
Some people with ADD do better when they get help from medications like
Ritalin. If it helps them achieve more, good. If not, they don't have to
take it.
Jeff
(...)
Jeff
"Bob Kaplow" <kapl...@encompasserve.org.TRABoD> wrote in message
news:MqnAt9b2+$Y...@eisner.encompasserve.org...
> writes:
>> You can say that properly applied, it is a gift. But then you are only
>> using the good traits that appear in ADHD. The bad traits, and the main
>> trait can hardly be called gifts, and therefore are still a disorder if
>> it affects the persons life enough.
>> Put it this way: If you find a way to properly apply it, then you don't
>> really have an ADHD anymore, right?
>
> A large percentage of the upper end of our society are ADD / ADHD. It's
> common among trial lawyers, several medical specialties, inventors,
> entrepreneurs, politicians, outside sales, entertainers, and many other
> areas. Not among CPAs.
Can you please provide evidence that this is the case?
Jeff
Chris Malcolm
> On 4 Feb 2005 17:43:04 GMT, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>>In alt.support.attn-deficit Mark Probert <Mark Pro...@lumbercartel.com> wrote:
>>
>>> <tada...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1107466642.2...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>> Actually, Einstein got into the university teaching based on his first
>>>> paper on his theory of relativity. He was a patent clerk when he wrote
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> One could do that sort of thing today, I believe, but I cannot think
>>>> of an example.
>>> You cannot think of an example because one cannot do that sort of thing
>>> today. The academic system is designed to prevent it.
>>
> Correct.
>>In the UK it certainly isn't. I'm led to believe that in the US
>>they're much fiercer about having exactly the right kind of CV and
>>much less willing to make exceptions based on merit such as having
>>published excellent research even though you didn't have the usual
>>qualifications.
> Brilliant post docs have trouble finding academic jobs. I knew a few
> professors with master's degrees but they are retired or dead now.
The fact is that there are now, today, far more academics without PhDs
in British Universities than in the US. They are a minority, and it
isn't easy, but it's still much more possible than in the US.
> How many people with no higher education get significant papers
> published?
You need a lot of training in how to collect and present the
information to get a paper published. It's hard to acquire that
outside tertiary education. It's also hard to publish as an unknown
without institutional support, usually in the form of a co-authorship,
from a place of known quality.
But not impossible.
> The 10 year old girl got published for political reasons,
> not the quality of her paper IMO.
Probably.
> There's a lot of junk in medical
> journals and much medical research (WHI) is poorly designed IMO.
Most published science is junk. It's hard to police quality more
fiercely without at the same time inadvertently throwing out some
important stuff. In many cases judgements about what is junk can only
reliably be made with the benefit of hindsight from a future vantage
point.
--
Chris Malcolm c...@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
george of the jungle
wrote:
>
>"Vashti" <vash...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:36jnopF...@individual.net...
>> Brunibus wrote:
>>
>>> <Dons fire-retardant suit and stands back>
>>
>> Nah, just get out your straight jacket: I think you've just agreed with
>> Raving Loonie! ;)
>
>Where are the flames of outrage ?
Not coming from me.
_george
george of the jungle
wrote:
>In alt.support.attn-deficit george of the jungle <ke...@somewhere.not.here> wrote:
>> On 4 Feb 2005 17:43:04 GMT, Chris Malcolm <c...@holyrood.ed.ac.uk>
>
>But not impossible.
>
>> The 10 year old girl got published for political reasons,
>> not the quality of her paper IMO.
>
>Probably.
>
>> There's a lot of junk in medical
>> journals and much medical research (WHI) is poorly designed IMO.
>
>Most published science is junk. It's hard to police quality more
>fiercely without at the same time inadvertently throwing out some
>important stuff. In many cases judgements about what is junk can only
>reliably be made with the benefit of hindsight from a future vantage
>point.
That last sentence is welll said. It is better to publish
controversial ideas and let further research sort out the good ideas
than to not publish them.
What pissses me off is when poorly designed studies get huge amounts
of press coverage and doctors start giving advice based on those
studies. The Women's Health Initiative, which treated with Prempro,
women who no longer had, for the most part, menopausal symptoms, was
such a study.
A fundamental reason for using double blind studies is to avoid sample
selection bias. They biased the sample by effectively knocking out,
through study design, women with significant menopausal symptoms. It
appears that they treated women who could no longer benefit from the
treatment - or at least that's one possibility.
Then there was the truly idiotic follow on where they determined that
there was no benefit of hormones on mood - based on a sample of
non-symptomatic women.
That study should not have been published. It was a mee tooo study
that misused available data. But it was politically correct at that
moment when there was a bandwagon against HRT.
_george
george of the jungle
But the Lincoln story sells books and makes money. I agree - it's
speculation and it serves someone's political point.
_george
george of the jungle
<ne...@soupisgoodfood.network> wrote:
>
>"MrPepper11" <MrPep...@go.com> wrote in message
>news:1107453568....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Wall Street Journal
>> February 3, 2005
>>
>> What If Einstein Had Taken Ritalin?
>> ADHD's Impact on Creativity
>> By JEFF ZASLOW
>>
>[snip]
>
>Einstein had ADHD? Hmmm... I spose this follows the same logic that
>cause people to think that Mozart and about every other genius had it as
>well.
>Does writting over 600 compositions by the age of 35 sound like
>something that someone with a chronic ability to procrastinate and be
>distracted would do?
>
>For every ADHD "genius", there is an ADHD "bum" sitting in the slammer.
>There are also plenty of people that have many of the personaity traits
>that people with ADHD oftern have. This, however, does not make them
>ADHD.
>
>Perhaps we all need to remember what ADHD stands for? And remember that
>it is a disorder, not a gift? Perhaps some of the traits that are common
>with ADHD can be considered gifts. But the key part of the disorder is
>hardly a gift to most of the people with it. It's a dead weight.
>
>
>Cheers, Justin.
>
I second Brunibus. Well said. My creativity and non-linear
connectional analysis is exceptional, I think, but so is my inability
to do the routine work to bring ideas to fruition. Einstein got his
work published which leads me to doubt that he had ADD.
_george
george of the jungle
wrote:
>Real life!, ...George
>
>And by the way, ... nobody ever forced me to take anything (except
>once ... and were they 'surprised'! They didn't think that I had ADD.
>Right? )
>
If you wish to tell, that sounds like a good story.
>I've heard that "FORCING" line used on lots of people. I despise the
>patronizing tone which is often associated with the 'cute' word "meds".
> To put it 'bluntly', it is disrespectful.
They use the term meds because we have been having a war on drugs for
about 20 years. The drugs are winning.
>
>You will come to realize, if you don't already 'recognize' "such" that
>I am NOT a member of the anti-psychiatry lobby. Quite the opposite,
>although I can imagine that it may not seem that way.
Well, then you need to explain what you wrote about bringing in the
lobby for "moral support".
__george
george of the jungle
wrote:
>
>"Raving Loonie" <frogwa...@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
>news:1107583695....@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>(...)
>
>> I have NEVER heard the term "pdoc" before visiting this newsgroup. For
>> quite a while, I imagined that pdoc meant "Post Doc" as in a person who
>> had a PhD and was continuing with further research in the hope of
>> becoming a professor ( prof ).
>
>I thought a pDoc was a urologist.
>
>(...)
Chuckle....pee Doc?
>
>> It seems to me that people with ADD are super, super, super "sensitive"
>> to it being a HANDICAP, ILLNESS, MENTAL DEFECT, ... MENTAL
>> RETARDATION
>
>It seems to me that people with ADD are people who have specific behavioral
>characteristics, that include impulsivity, poor orgnaizational skills and
>poor concentration.
>
*****
>Some people with ADD do better when they get help from medications like
>Ritalin. If it helps them achieve more, good. If not, they don't have to
>take it.
*****
Exactly. It's an individual choice. And if a drug stops helping it
can be discontinued.
_george
Raving Loonie
"My creativity and non-linear
connectional analysis is exceptional, I think, but so is my inability
to do the routine work to bring ideas to fruition. "
So now we are getting down to the gory 'details' of it George!
It's about time.
Similarly, when Brunibus says " The "ADHD is a wonderful gift"
merchants have no idea how INCREDIBLY annoying they are. " ... I would
have to say "ditto", there, too.
I was beginning to despair that I was cracking heads with a bunch of
tepid church picnic socialites. ... and 'spare' me the "What's wrong
with a bunch of T.C.P.S" crap.
Now hold that THOUGHT, you two "fuckers". Park it. Stand on it. Pin
that sucker down and don't move damn it! Let all the other twaddle
float away ......~~~~~~
Take that THOUGHT; flag it, bag it and tag it "Brunibus meets George"
(of the jungle). |||burn||| it into memory with a sizzle.
Chris Malcolm
That study is a good example of what I mean. You think it's junk. A
lot of intelligent well-educated medical researchers think it is an
excellent study. In fact you seem to be calling it junk and saying it
should not have been published because it was not designed to ask and
answer the questions you wanted answered. It *was* sufficiently
well-designed to answer very comprehensively the questions it *was*
designed to address, and to answer them in a way that was unexpected
and shocking to those who designed the study.
Your criticisms are based on the question whether the benefits of HRT
are worth its disadvantages when used to treat serious and temporary
problems of the transitional phase of menopause. But it wasn't
intended to answer that question. The manufacturers had been pushing
for a long time the idea that being post-menopausal was a state of
physiological malfunctioning deficiency which could be fixed by
lifelong post-menopausal use of HRT. It was considered that it stopped
or slowed down many of the symptoms of aging in women. It was
sometimes referred to as "the fountain of youth".
However a number of doctors were worried by the indications of a number
of small studies and some questionable studies, which suggested that
there were serious long-term disadvantages to HRT which ought ot
forbid its lifelong post-menopausal use as an "anti-aging" fix, and
that it should be restricted to the strictly temporary amelioration of
bad symptoms of the transition to the post-menopausal state.
The WHI study was intended by the manufacturers to knock these
criticisms of its long term disadvantages on the head once and for
all, and clear the way to promoting its beneficial (not to mention
highly profitable to the makers) use by many women for the rest of
their lives.
To their horror not only did it not do that, it turned up sufficient
adverse effects that one arm of the study had to be terminated because
it would have been unethical to continue giving women something that
was by then clearly on the way to killing some of them.
You can't really call a study junk and "should not have been
published" simply because it wasn't the particular study you would
have liked to have seen done. The fact that it produced unexpected
results firmly enough to have changed national prescribing guidelines,
to have raised a lot of controversy, and to have raised further
questions clearly enough that "more research is needed" are all good
indications that it certainly wasn't junk which shouldn't have been
published.
Chris Malcolm
> <ne...@soupisgoodfood.network> wrote:
>>"MrPepper11" <MrPep...@go.com> wrote in message
>>news:1107453568....@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> Wall Street Journal
>>> February 3, 2005
>>>
>>> What If Einstein Had Taken Ritalin?
>>> ADHD's Impact on Creativity
>>> By JEFF ZASLOW
>>Einstein had ADHD? Hmmm... I spose this follows the same logic that
>>cause people to think that Mozart and about every other genius had it as
>>well.
>>Does writting over 600 compositions by the age of 35 sound like
>>something that someone with a chronic ability to procrastinate and be
>>distracted would do?
>>
>>For every ADHD "genius", there is an ADHD "bum" sitting in the slammer.
>>There are also plenty of people that have many of the personaity traits
>>that people with ADHD oftern have. This, however, does not make them
>>ADHD.
>>
>>Perhaps we all need to remember what ADHD stands for? And remember that
>>it is a disorder, not a gift? Perhaps some of the traits that are common
>>with ADHD can be considered gifts. But the key part of the disorder is
>>hardly a gift to most of the people with it. It's a dead weight.
> I second Brunibus. Well said. My creativity and non-linear
> connectional analysis is exceptional, I think, but so is my inability
> to do the routine work to bring ideas to fruition. Einstein got his
> work published which leads me to doubt that he had ADD.
Look at the ADD researcher and ADDult Ratey. He publishes, but he
doesn't take medication because he hasn't found anything which works
well for him.
Twittering One
p fogg
news:6pcb015t542cdhepp...@4ax.com...
Hi George,
My mom is in the Women's Health Initiative study -- it is still ongoing.
They're also studying calcium against placebo. The reason HRT was in the
study was because docs were prescribing HRT to nonsymptomatic women
routinely because they believed it was protective against heart disease,
bone loss, and dementia (I may have left something out here). It was
discovered through WHI early results that it wasn't protective, and there
was a small risk, so they ended the HRT study early and recommended docs to
only prescribe HRT to symptomatic women. The problem was that docs were
prescribing HRT essentially off-label to nonsymptomatic women with no
studies to back it up.
--Patti
StovePipe
> A fundamental reason for using double blind studies is to avoid sample
> selection bias. They biased the sample by effectively knocking out,
> through study design, women with significant menopausal symptoms.
Amen to the first sentence... The same thing is currently happening in
Dentistry with the HealOzone/CureOzone contraption... No independent,
double-blind studies have demonstrated that it works and does what it
purports to. The only real 'studies' have been done by the manufacturer
and their academic allies, who have vested interests.
Hopefully, this'll all be sorted out before it hits the USA (where I
assume alot of you are) in a few months' time.
Cheers
SP
--
Not a real Addy, yet