Re: husband's obligations at 82?
Dennis White
<bhe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:k6arl0l6fm8d7qtgb...@4ax.com...
> You guys are great, so I thought I'd throw this out there
snip...
Bill, I feel for you. You certainly seem to be in a position that
makes it difficult to know what to do. I understand why you are turning to
this newsgroup. I don't know what to tell you about your mother. I'm sure
there are others here that are more qualified to give an opinion. However,
I want to take yet another opportunity point out the need for all of us to
have a "living will". If your mother had one (and for that matter, your
mother's husband) you wouldn't have been put in a position that may become
untenable. There may come a time when your mother's husband has every legal
right to say where your mother should be, and have the legal right to
control how all of their assets, whether it is in her best interests or not.
At that point you may be powerless to intervene on her behalf
While trying to sort all of this out please consider how important it
will prove for you, your children and your wife or significant other to have
your own living wills prepared as soon as possible.
Good Luck
Dennis White
John Inzer
You're a good son and you are embarking on what
may be a long and difficult journey. Like many of the
regulars here...we are going on six years of taking
care of Rosie. Even though her mind is practically
gone...her general health is still amazingly good.
Sounds like your mom's second husband cannot or
will not take care of her and also you indicate there's
a possibility that he may be abusive to your mom.
Even if it's only verbal...it's still abuse and she shouldn't
have to live with it.
If living with you is a possibility I would strongly consider
that option and if not...maybe you could arrange for her
to move to an assisted living facility. Worrying about
who owns what at this juncture may not be the most
important factor.
As for the AD...explaining to an AD victim that they
have the disease and expecting them to understand
and accept it is rarely possible. In most cases...using
what we call Loving Deception is the best approach.
--
John Inzer
return e-mail disabled
bhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> You guys are great, so I thought I'd throw this out
> there. My Mom is 82, and seems to be advanced a little
> in Alzheimer's (or LBD) after knee surgery. I think she
> is getting back to "normal" but still has some trouble
> turning the walker the wrong way at times, trouble
> distinguishing the TV remote from the phone at times ...
> able to get to the bathroom and clean up but trouble
> turning the walker ...
>
> Anyway, she should have someone there, but doesn't want
> to leave her house she's shared with her second husband
> for 25 years. Her 83 year old husband has Parkinson's,
> but mostly under control. He still mows, goes to
> farmer's market, does household chores, weaves rugs a few
> hours a day... but he seems to think taking care of her
> is too much. He has had his own temper problems his whole
> life, but years ago I asked Mom if he had ever hit her
> and she said no, that would have only happened once. I
> feel he has been very "gruff" though, and even in her
> more confused state he will yell a little when she
> doesn't understand him. (He once killed their little dog
> by kicking it, out of anger)
>
> Since some complications after surgery 2 months ago, I've
> been with her at their house 24 hours for the most part.
> She is improving slowly, but speaking with one of her
> husband's kids today, it seems they think she should be
> sent to a home cuz he is getting tired of "it". Since
> I'm there, he really does just his normal routine, and
> doesn't have to do much extra for her at all. My Mom's
> thinking it's half her house, he can't just send her off,
> which I pretty much agree with, if she can get to the
> bathroom and feed and dress herself (or get some help
> with some of that). Unfortunately, he can still have
> temper tantrums (non physical) and seems to have no
> interest in hand holding type of support for her.
>
> Another option is moving into assisted living housing,
> but he doesn't seem to want that, though she does.
>
> I guess I'm just looking for some pearls of wisdom from
> you guys. I'm single and moved back to part of the farm
> where my Mom grew up and I spent time as a kid (20 miles
> from them). I'm building here and am thinking I could
> take care of her for a few years as she progresses, but
> she wants to stay there right now (she is not yet aware,
> or hasn't accepted that it is probably Alzheimer type
> dementia, though that is discussed at Dr's and I have
> told her it is probably that type of dementia. I haven't
> yet "confronted" her with the reality). She is warming
> up to the idea of coming out with me at times, so there
> are some options.
>
> Anyway, having just spoken with one of the husband's
> kids, that I think only have pity for the rough life they
> hear about from their Dad, I thought I should seek a
> multitude of counsellors :) My view is surely biased,
> but being two hours away as the other kids are and
> showing up once to do a little clean up (half assed, lol)
> doesn't really qualify them to have a clue as far as I'm
> concerned.
>
> A little indirect thanks from my Mom helps a lot. Though
> she doesn't seem fully aware that I've given up 2 months
> for her, she told her closest sister .. if it hadn't been
> for Bill, I'd be .. pause .. dead. That may actually be
> true. Through my hours of internet work I disobeyed her
> doctor (after going to 2 other doctors for opinions) and
> I finally found that a life threatening complication
> would have been made much worse if I'd done what those
> doctors said. (this was affirmed by the GI specialist
> that figured out the problem ... "what were they giving
> her that for" "I'm glad you didn't give her that" ... )
> btw, one of the husband's kids is a nurse ... her advice,
> though she couldn't follow what I was saying, was to just
> (blindly) do whatever the doctor says) We did switch
> Dr's finally, after her Dr. called saying she should
> start taking Flagyl, which she had already been taking
> ... it's tuff when you get back from vacation and have to
> try to catch up before your next vacation...
>
> ok, that last part was venting :) ... but please pass on
> those pearls ... and I sure admire you guys that are
> around after losing a loved one ... (or are in the
> process)
>
> Bill
Dennis P. Harris
bhe...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Anyway, she should have someone there, but doesn't want to leave her
> house she's shared with her second husband for 25 years. Her 83 year
> old husband has Parkinson's, but mostly under control. He still mows,
> goes to farmer's market, does household chores, weaves rugs a few
> hours a day... but he seems to think taking care of her is too much.
If he has Parkinson's it probably *is* too much, and he seems to
be wise enough to know it's going to get much worse.
You, on the other hand, are in denial if you think that you can
take care of her yourself. If she'a already mistaking the remote
for the telephone, things have already gone far enough that she
probably wouldn't be safe if left alone for very long, and 24x7
care is *not* for sissies (been there, done that). It means NO
rest and NO time to yourself, which is something your stepfather
seems to already understand.
Even if she doesn't want to go to an assisted living situation
without him, it may be the best choice for right now. If he has
Parkinson's he may join her in an assisted living situation
sooner than he thinks.
Dennis White
"Bill Hermsmeier" <bhe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:57o7d.676$M05...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> My Mom's assests are mostly in joint accounts with her kids and a little
> with her husband, though he would control the house and her car. I've
> learned that even joint accounts can be tricky if held in a brokerage. A
> check from there made to both parties can be put into a joint checking
> account of the same two parties, from there requiring only one
signature...
> at tleast that is my understanding...
>
> The husband has said it would be ok with him if I got power of attorney.
> That will probably be next.We do have a power of attorney for health care,
> but I'd have to review that.
>
> Thanks,
Being designated as Power of Attorney is certainly helpful while your mother
is alive. But please be aware that upon your mothers death your POA will no
longer be effective. You will then have no legal rights over her assets,
how her wishes are to be carried out, and even the physical rights to her
remains. Hopefully when you seek to have a POA instituted your lawyer will
explain to you the advantages as well as limitations of such a document.
Good luck
Dennis White
Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.
anger/agression is part of Parkinson's in some people. Your Mom's husband
may not be able to care for her if his disease is affecting the thought
processes involved with judgement, empathy, planning and patience. And since
these apparantly were never strong points to begin with, any decrease in
ability would bring him into areas of not having those attributes at all. If
your Mom's husband is saying he can't take care of her anymore, maybe it's
true. Maybe he didn't like doing it before, but now finds it really puts him
at the limit of his functioning. I don't mean to be treating someone abusve
in a kind way. I'm just looking to see if despite past bad behaviour,
perhaps there is a kernel of truth in his looking for a way out.
While in an ideal world, a husband would love and care for his wife,
sometimes that just isn't the case. And we have to deal with what is, and
not what we think should be. Sometimes, what is reasonable is not realistic.
Look to your Mom's care. Get her the best you can with the assests she has.
Figure out her finances, her medical coverage, and options for long term
care. Perhaps one option is selling the property to pay for assisted living
for each of them. Would the husband's children take in their father if the
property had to be sold? All sorts of things to think about.
--
Adelle D. Stavis, Esq.
"Bill Hermsmeier" <bhe...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:qRr7d.807$M05...@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> After almost 2 months of doing almost everything, I have a little idea of
> what it might be like and I wouldn't want to do that for long if she
> advanced much. She was having about 15 rounds of diarrhea per day, which
> seems like a fairly good test for the caregiver. But since she is
> recovering from some serious complications she is still getting clearer by
> the day. If I can get her back to the health she had before knee surgery
> and her mental state back to that point, I'm thinking her husband and I
> could take care of her for some time. Then as she advances back to the
> point she was at a few weeks ago (advanced due to illness and stress) I
> could take care of her with some outside help ... next it would be time
for
> her to move to assisted living.
>
> I guess I feel like it would be fair if her hubbie would be willing to do
at
> least half of what he did just a few months ago. It seems he got used to
my
> sister & me carrying the whole load. Anyway, we have been getting along
> fine, but I want to spend some time working at my place during the day.
> Fortunately Aricept seems to be working well for him (and fish oil and
> mental and physical activity). He has shown almost no advancement for
> several years. I'm thankful he does as much as he does, but feel he could
> do more than totally turn her personal care over to me. Maybe I'm just
> resentful that he seems to me to be too ready to wash his hands of the
> matter. Or maybe I'm just tired and cranky :)
>
> The other phase is getting my Mom to be willing to either move or hire
some
> help. Right now she says she would rather risk falling in the bathroom
than
> be sent away. I think I agree with that actually, although a visit to a
> good assisted living facility would maybe change her mind. Anyway ...
> enough for now ... maybe I was just venting. I could be in denial, but
she
> was at death's door a few weeks ago and I had accepted that she could go.
> It would certainly have been easier if she had, but I think there are
still
> a few years of awareness remaining. Also I want a few months to try fish
> oil, and some alternative possibilities. I've known others who have
passed
> from Alzheimer's, so I understand it is not a picnic ... but this has
> motivated me to do more for her myself before turning her over to
underpaid
> staffers.
>
> Thanks for the straight talk ...
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> "Dennis P. Harris" <NO_SPAM_T...@gci.net> wrote in message
> news:566sl0hnrk0emsriq...@4ax.com...
Dennis P. Harris
Hermsmeier" <bhe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Maybe I'm just
> resentful that he seems to me to be too ready to wash his hands of the
> matter. Or maybe I'm just tired and cranky :)
probably both! but remember that he has his own health problems,
since he has parkinson's. you can't expect him to have to
stamina of someone younger or healthier, and it sounds to me like
you're expecting him to do a lot. he may feel that professionals
in a care facility can do a much better job of taking care of her
than he's capable of doing.
Dennis P. Harris
Hermsmeier" <bhe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Right now she says she would rather risk falling in the bathroom than
> be sent away. I think I agree with that actually, although a visit to a
> good assisted living facility would maybe change her mind.
If she falls and breaks a hip, she will probably never get out of
bed, and will die sooner. How is this helpful?
JM Van_Horn
> > be sent away. I think I agree with that actually, although a visit to a
> > good assisted living facility would maybe change her mind.
>
> If she falls and breaks a hip, she will probably never get out of
> bed, and will die sooner. How is this helpful?
>
bathroom and never walked again. It's not like a
younger person with a sound mind. To walk
again you need rehabilitation, and Mom didn't
have the brainpower to help with the rehab.
It did hasten her death.
In assisted living there are different levels of care. You can
get (and they often include) standby or hands-on bathing
assistance. Help with toileting is available in assisted living
but the person has to be able to know to call for the
assistance. In an assisted-living dementia unit the assistance
does not have to be called for, but it helps if the person can
ask. The place Mom was at, they checked them every 2
hours during the day. At night, however, the staffing
was lower and Mom needed to go often at night
and would just get up, not being aware she should
ask for help. If your mother can ask for help at night
it should be much safer than at her home.
Nothing's guaranteed though, my mother broke both
her hips trying to get to the bathroom at night on her
own in a dementia unit. Restraints are illegal and the
staff couldn't watch her sleep. She was up about 8 times
a night at irregular intervals. The doctor was working
on this with medication but nothing worked. Even a
bed alarm wouldn't have helped if they'd had one,
it only tells you after they've left the bed. Mom fell
right at the foot of the bed.
joan
B Herms
"Dennis P. Harris" > On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 06:25:26 GMT in
Well, my thinking is a quality of life issue. An increased risk (how much
is unclear, if precautions are taken) may be worth it if one is able to stay
home and feel more human for longer. As JM said, accidents happen at
nursing homes as well. For the last month, I've gotten up with my mom a
couple times a night when she goes to the bathroom. She had the idea of
just using the bedside commode.
When you get advanced "too far", a shortened life may not be the worst
thing, though as I mentioned to my Mom, breaking a hip could mean a lot of
suffering before death. It's hard to judge when one is being clear about
how they want to live their remaining days, but she seemed very lucid when
saying she'd rather take that type of risk than go to a nursing home. I'm
still a little up in the air on how much to try to intervene.
Bill
Evelyn Ruut
news:RgW7d.1656$UP1...@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Hi Bill,
Yes, that is always the biggest question we all face. But there is another
consideration too. When changes have to be made, they are often easier to
adapt to earlier in the game. Later it can be harder. We have to factor
it all out for ourselves based on what the person values most, and what
safety issues are at stake. Often they conflict. There are no easy
answers and no easy solutions.
--
Regards,
Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")
Mary Gordon
resentful thinking, and look at this "from the what you see is what
you get" perspective.
The guy is 83, he has Parkinson's, he's cranky and bad tempered, and
he doesn't WANT to look after your mother 24/7. You've been helping
for the last few months, and he still feels burdened and overwhelmed
and has no interest in assuming that role. So, you can do the slow
burn all you want, but he is what he is, and no amount of magic
thinking is going to change that. I can understand where his children
are coming from as well. Being a caregiver for someone who is going to
steadily decline from a dementing illness like AD is a daunting and
draining prospect for anyone, let alone someone who is quite elderly
and has a progressive illness themselves. If he could take it on with
a willing heart and supports, god love 'im for hanging in, but if he
can't - better for him to be upfront and honest about it - which he
has.
Your mother has recovered a little ground post surgery, but she's
never going to be well again, and she IS going to get worse and worse.
That is the one thing you can count on with Alzheimers. It doesn't
"come to pass", it comes to get worse.
So, you can't stay there looking after her full time. Her husband
can't and won't look after her full time. The conclusion has to be -
her current situation is not sustainable, even now, let alone in a few
months from now as she starts to slide further down the cognitive hill
from the AD.
It sounds to me that she has not yet been fully assessed and
diagnosed. That should be your first step, so you really know what is
going on, and what she is capable of. The results are generally
sobering, and useful to get your brain around exactly what you are
really looking at, rather than what you wish you were looking at, and
what the distraction of the intact portions of your mother's
personality may be keeping you from seeing.
My suggestion is to have a family conference, including the children
of her husband, and start talking about finances and potentially
splitting assets. Your mother needs to be in an assisted living
facility - she needs looking after 24/7, which is not something I
think you can realistically provide if you have a job, other
relationships, other interests, commitments or activities you need
time for. If she DOES come live with you now, you have to be prepared
to invest in daycare, hired help, so she is looked after around the
clock.
So, either with you or in a facility, money is required, and its time
to talk about how it can be paid for. Her husband may have to move so
the house can be sold, and her half put to her care etc. so that has
to be talked through with her step children, and you are likely to
want to discuss all this with a lawyer as well.
Just from your description, your mother is not in early AD. It is
entirely likely that if she were assessed by a professional for
cognitive impairment, she is worse than you recognize. Given that,
there is limited point in "confronting" her with her problems. One of
the hallmarks of progressive brain damage is a loss of insight into
your own problems. People with AD rarely can see what is glaringly
obvious to others. All you will do by "confronting" her is to upset
her. She may never believe she is in need of support and supervision.
She may never believe she needs to move.
YOu will have to take action anyway. You should also get ready for the
notion that in short order, she will not be capable of being grateful
or recognizing efforts or sacrifices on her behalf at all. It goes
with the caregiver territory. If you are waiting for affirmation for
what you are giving up for her, thats an idea to put behind you.
Having helped look after my MIL, we certainly didn't get ya yas from
her grateful recognition of us trying to do the right thing to keep
her safe, dignified and comfortable - if anything, the opposite, since
she was actively resentful of the things we had to arrange for her
safety, angry with us for what she saw as interference, upset and
insulted at the inference she needed help at all, etc. etc. It really
was like looking after a child. As a parent, you have to do many
things for your child's benefit and safety that your child neither
likes nor sees the point of due to their limited understanding of
their own limitations. The kid may be screaming "I hate you" at the
top of his or her lungs, and you have to put your head down and keep
going anyway.
I'm not sure if this has helped or not - AD is a very cruel reality to
come to terms with.
Mary G.
Evelyn Ruut
I just wanted to add my endorsement to what Mary says below. It is good
advice and plainly put. Hope it all works out for you well.
--
Regards,
Evelyn
(to reply to me personally, remove 'sox")
"Mary Gordon" <Mary_...@tvo.org> wrote in message
news:40b9e4c0.04100...@posting.google.com...
B Herms
Yes, there are demanding times ahead. My Mom agreed today to get a lawyer
to appoint me power of attorney. That will help some. I do have the time
to put in full time care, but how long I would endure if she got much worse
instead of continuing to improve is another question.
Thanks for the point about possibly having to sell the house. She could
afford a couple years without that I think, but some hard decisions will
eventually have to be made. My step Father qualifies to stay at a veterans
home here, and I was asking about that option for her as well. Her first
husband lived there for his last 25 years or so, and she has been married
for 25 now. That might be a final safety valve ... I have an uncle there
now. Their staff to patient ratio is almost one to one from what I hear.
I imagine you're right about the intact portions of my Mom's personality
distracting from the seriousness of the trouble. She has had some of those
initial screenings at the doctor's, but I don't think she's back to that
cognitive point yet, and may not be ever. But she is still improving, so
I'm sorta hanging here to see how much better she will get in the shrot
term.
As far as AD being a cruel reality to come to grips with ... yes ... I feel
I'm wading in a little at a time. I still try to be positive though and
hold out hope, and I'm not sure I want to delve too much into the probable
outcome, except in terms of legal matters and care arrangements. Also I
have slightly more hope for DLB being more amenable to treatment. For the
last few years my Mom has spent large portions of her day alone with her
husband in their basement or out. She is finally getting more mental
stimulation, for what that's worth.
Thanks for the detailed reply. I'll probably seek out the AD organization
here too.
Bill
"Mary Gordon" <Mary_...@tvo.org> wrote in message
news:40b9e4c0.04100...@posting.google.com...
John Ferman
it to make copies for my family. I am the eldest and most susceptible
to AD and my family will appreciate your words.
In article <40b9e4c0.04100...@posting.google.com>, Mary
Dennis P. Harris
Herms" <bhe...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I do have the time
> to put in full time care, but how long I would endure if she got much worse
> instead of continuing to improve is another question.
It's normal to be in denial, so I'll repeat what others have
said, something that you don't want to hear, but need to
recognize NOW, so that you can plan properly.
If it's Alzheimer's, she WILL get much worse. She will NOT
continue to improve for long. The only question is how fast she
will deteriorate, and until she has a full neuro-psychiatric
exam, you will not know 1) how impaired she truly is and 2)
whether drugs can help slow the rate of deterioration.
You need to evaluate what you plan to do based on the reality
that she won't improve, and will get worse.
And what Mary said in her post was spot on.
You asked for our opinions based on experience, and you got it.
B Herms
Maybe I'm not communicating clearly. The point I was trying to make is that
I want to see if she will continue to improve back to where she was before
the surgery and complications, just 2 1/2 months ago. (If we were to chart
the progression of her AD or DLB like a stock, I'd say the uptrend is intact
but the recent spike above the 100 day moving average is overdone) So I'm
staying at my Mom's for that process of recovery from surgery and
complications, and then fully expect the previous uptrend to continue. I
refuse to abondon all hope though, and think even that uptrend could be
broken or at least bent with my more active involvement in her diet,
activities and meds. (eg. Mary now has me ready to check with the doctor
about adding Nemanda to the Reminyl, and I've cancelled the appointment with
the witch doctor.)
My point was that if she started to stay with me and then started to get
MUCH worse, then I'm not sure how long I'd last. (basically I was saying
yes, I understand taking care of her beyond a certain point of progression
would be very difficult, not best for her, and unhealthy for ME) My hope is
that her progression would be slowed enough to give her a year or more
before requiring a move away from loved ones. On the other hand, a GOOD
facility with more activity than I would be able to provide her might be
better for her, and getting her familiarized there before too much
degradation seems to be recommended. Sorting that out is the process I'm
going through now.
There are no doubt plenty of ugly details that I'm not yet aware of.
However there are still many parts of her brain that still function well
enough to communicate parts of her past, and her short term memory isn't all
that bad yet. She has some spatial disorientation which seems her weakest
point at the moment and which is worse than before surgery. (she can catch
a throw a ball but can't always turn the walker the right way, something I
want to understand more fully) As Mary said, a full evaluation would be
helpful. More good news is that my Mom would qualify as a vet's spouse to
stay at the local veterans home where they have an AD section. The total
max out of pocket per month there is $929 or so, including meds.
Well, enough for now, I appreciate your input.
Bill
"Dennis P. Harris" <NO_SPAM_T...@gci.net> wrote in message
news:90l4m0h11imov805d...@4ax.com...