Sufism without Sufis
Jeff George
mythology, doctrine, and history when to the religious, it's not
really about any of these things. What makes religion such a force to
be reckoned with is that it fosters a strong sense of community and
personal identity that fulfills a fundamental human need that no
modern secular institution so far has been able to match.
The intellect often fails to understand religion by focusing on
mythology, doctrine, and history when to the religious, it's not
really about any of these things. What makes religion such a force to
be reckoned with is that it fosters a strong sense of community and
personal identity that fulfills a fundamental human need that no
modern secular institution so far has been able to match.
For example, online social networking, while useful for disseminating
information, offers only a temporary illusion of community.
When the focus of Sufism becomes about a system or a product (books,
websites, videos, etc). It plays into a fundamental flaw of modern,
liberated, progressive society in that it effectively prevents real
progress on the human level both individually and collectively. That
is the increasing inability to form organized, functional, human
communities.
To put it simply, Sufism without Sufis is like Humanity without
Humans.
Eric T
news:3bb2eae9-dc48-4036...@q35g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
Three threads so far, Jeff:
"The Missing Age"
"Sufism without Sufis"
"Humans without Humanity"
One possible denominator seems to be the word "missing".
A question I might ask myself is "What am I really missing?"
With good wishes,
eric.
--
mystic faction (a blend of fact and fiction)
http://www.sarmouni.dyndns.org/writing/etienne_de_lamour.htm
Jeff George
> "Jeff George" <j...@crazyforcongress.com> wrote in message
That's a good question, what are you missing?
obov...@aol.com
> be reckoned with is that it fosters a strong sense of community and
> personal identity that fulfills a fundamental human need that no
> modern secular institution so far has been able to match.>>
I mean not to be argumentive, but I don't think you ever met a
European or South American Soccer fan. Nor been to a comic book or
Star Wars convention.
And it seems you've either forgotten or never digested the chapter in
Shah's The Sufis titled MYSTERIES IN THE WEST I Strange Rites.
And as to what is or is not valid Sufic undertaking, pg 18,19 of
Knowing How To Know, seems to present a view contray to what you
express.
The best Sufic manifestation I've incountered on the internet is
probably Crag's List, a free digital Suk or marketplace for people and
goods to contact each other with no middle man getting his or her cut.
To find Sufism in a practicle way, one must have or develope practicle
skills.
Take Care,
obo
Jeff George
> Jeff George wrote: What makes religion such a force to
> > be reckoned with is that it fosters a strong sense of community and
> > personal identity that fulfills a fundamental human need that no
> > modern secular institution so far has been able to match.>>
>
> I mean not to be argumentive, but I don't think you ever met a
> European or South American Soccer fan. Nor been to a comic book or
> Star Wars convention.
>
> And it seems you've either forgotten or never digested the chapter in
> Shah's The Sufis titled MYSTERIES IN THE WEST I Strange Rites.
I understand where you're coming from on this. In terms of rituals and
rites, these examples certainly apply. The institutional aspects I'm
talking about, however, are a little more involved...
> And as to what is or is not valid Sufic undertaking, pg 18,19 of
> Knowing How To Know, seems to present a view contray to what you
> express.
Thanks for the specific reference. I want to take a closer look at
this, because what I've been trying to express I think is more of a
refinement than a difference, but I'm out of town right now, so I'll
write more when I get back...
Jeff George
> Shah's The Sufis titled MYSTERIES IN THE WEST I Strange Rites.
Obo, when you talk about religion, I think what you see are rites,
rituals, and dogma. When I talk about religion in this sense, what I'm
talking about religion in an institutional sense is a complete
material, social, and physiological support infrastructure.
Movie and football fans may share rites and a common sense of identity
over the the shows and the games, and may bond over them from time to
time, but in general, that's it. This energy isn't focused towards
forming deeper social links, just having fun together and blowing off
steam (and making billions for studios and leagues). These communities
share common interests, but as institutions little else.
I'm not suggesting that anyone needs to get old timey religion, but
that the failures of religion in modern culture have created a social
vacuum that has yet to be consistently and constructively filled. The
growing fundamentalist cults are not just full of weak-willed,
ignorant people. It's not any intellectual approach to dogma that
nourishes them. More than anything, its the strong emotional social,
economic, and cultural bonds with a sense of common history and
identity else that binds them together and sustains them. It gives
them a tremendous advantage in their ability to spread and organize.
Ignoring this puts us all at peril.
> And as to what is or is not valid Sufic undertaking, pg 18,19 of
> Knowing Hmow To Know, seems to present a view contray to what you
> express.
I think we must have different editions. I'm not sure what you're
talking about here if your referring to "Purpose of Study and
Research" (my pgs. 12-16). If you mean "Outworn Techniques" (pg. 19),
this actually expresses pretty much everything I've been trying to say
about the approach to Sufism generally expressed here and at
Caravanserai perfectly. If you're referring to "Recruitment and
Education" (pg. 20) than understand that the purpose of Shah's books
is different from what I'm talking about. The "making fact's known"
stage is over as far as I'm concerned (but not for those at that
stage). I'm talking about what comes next.
> The best Sufic manifestation I've incountered on the internet is
> probably Crag's List, a free digital Suk or marketplace for people and
> goods to contact each other with no middle man getting his or her cut.
Why do you regard this as Sufism?
> To find Sufism in a practicle way, one must have or develope practicle
> skills.
I assume you're not suggesting that I don't have any practical skills,
but rather you mean in general that Sufism is put in practice in the
exercise of practical endeavors. In which case, I agree.
It's easy to see Sufism at work in things we like or find innovative,
regardless of this is the case or not. There is a difference here
between something that serves a Sufi function, something that Sufis
have influenced, and an actual Sufi system. It's the third thing I'm
addressing.
obov...@aol.com
> > The best Sufic manifestation I've incountered on the internet is
> > probably Crag's List, a free digital Suk or marketplace for people and
> > goods to contact each other with no middle man getting his or her cut.
Jeff responded>
> Why do you regard this as Sufism?
Did not some famous Sufi once say something to the effect, Is not the
Path found nowere else than in service to the people.
Craig's list serves. It is an Internet site which DOES something, not
just SAY something. See The Book of the Book for amplification on the
abilitty to do.
Jeff, my friend, how can we continue on like this? I suggest a page
referance to Shah's Khowing How to Know, and you try to find it in The
Commanding Self. :)
Shah says:
"We have forms in which we work. Now the form in which we work may be
a vocational one, some kind of activity of manufacturing something
(snip)
This kind of operation in which we are working, the kind of operation
of which you constantly hear rumors such as those about the Cathedral
builders and about the great artisans on the past who had spiritual
objectives as well as vocational ones.
If I thought you had a practical side to your Sufi quest I would be
surprised to find you still here talking. My excuse is that I'm
retired and only take serious the game of chess I play with Death on
some nameless black and white beach.
Take Care,
obo
Jeff George
>
> If I thought you had a practical side to your Sufi quest I would be
> surprised to find you still here talking.
Groucho paraphrases:
"I won't belong to any organization that would have me as a member."
> My excuse is that I'm
> retired and only take serious the game of chess I play with Death on
> some nameless black and white beach.
"I intend to live forever, or die trying."
obov...@aol.com
> On Sep 26,
>
> "I intend to live forever, or die trying."
Now we're getting somewhere!
Seems to me much of your disatisfaction with the Sufism you've found
in others and perhaps, (by the content of your posting) the short
comings in your own experience of Sufism, is the relationship with
deaths (plural).
See the annotations section of The Sufis, the one titled death and
rebirth.
Take Care,
obo
Jeff George
> Jeff George wrote:
> > On Sep 26,
>
> > "I intend to live forever, or die trying."
>
> Now we're getting somewhere!
I think Grouch was paraphrasing obo.
> Seems to me much of your disatisfaction with the Sufism you've found
> in others and perhaps, (by the content of your posting) the short
> comings in your own experience of Sufism, is the relationship with
> deaths (plural).
Either way, it's all filtered through own selves. However, my
experience with Sufism is not so much the issue as the way the current
exponents of Sufism are presenting it, and more specifically the way
the folks here and at Caravansarai are consuming it.
> See the annotations section of The Sufis, the one titled death and
> rebirth.
My take on life is that I can live with or without it:-)
obov...@aol.com
more specifically the way
> the folks here and at Caravansarai are consuming it.
Could you expand on this? I can't seem to lump all those folks
together as eating from the same table.
Take Care,
obo
Jeff George
Will do...