A look at how the Empire could defeat the Federation without risking a single imperial life.
Paradox
is now under the control of the Empire, and if anyone bitches, BDZ.
Paradox
Durandal
"These are not "assumptions."
You have repeatedly PROVEN yourself to have the scientific knowledge
and technical competence of a lab rat."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
SyG
The Empires superior speed means that it doesn't have to engage ANY
starfleet vessel if it doesn't want to. It can outrun their
comunications even. There's nothing starfleet could do to prevent the
wholesale slaughter of federation citizens other then surendering.
So, what does this mean in a war? Rather simpley, it means that with
the proper tactic, the Empire could force the Federation to surrender
without ever puting a single Imperial vessel or imperial personal to
danger. I can hear the "what is he smokeing?" going on now, so I'll
explain the entire campaign for you.
First we start off by establishing an imperial base somewhere. I
would think that a 24 hour hyperdrive distance from the center of the
federation will enough to prevent the chance of a starfleet ship from
finding it within a couple of decades.
Next, we issue a public proclomation to the federation. We will
invite them to surrender and join the empire, becoming a protectorate.
This proclomation will not only be transmited to federation leaders,
but the general population as well. Of course, they will likely
refuse at first. That brings up step 3.
Of course, if at any time, the federation agrees to our "request", we
proceed straight to step 9.
Step 3 is a demonstration of power. After waiting for the
federation's reply, we send a single imperial vessal (an ISD will work
fine) to attack. We calculate 2 hyperspace jumps (one going to
target, one leaving target). We also, of course, determine what our
alignment with the target will be, and train our guns to hit said
target before we jump (simple geometry). The target will be a
starfleet instillation. What we shall do next is to syncronize
everything. End result will be the ISD jumps in, fires emediately,
and jumps out. Total time in system is less then 2 seconds. This is
not enough time for a starfleet vessel to locate, target, fire, and
hit for effect before we are gone.
Step 4 is another broadcast. This time, we show some details on the
attack. We show how fast it is, and how it demonstraits the total
failure of starfleet being able to ever actualy get us. This is also
a public broadcast. We finish with that since the federation's
leaders refuse to join us, we ahve no choice but to consider them an
enemy. We say that we know the good citizens of the federation are
not to blame, and that we hope a quick demonstration of our abilities
will let their warmongering leaders to see the light.
Step 5 is a repeat of step 3 after about another week. Once more, the
target will be a starfleet facility.
Step 6 we send in a civilian transport. It does the hyperspacejump in
just like the ISD did in the previous ones, but does not jump out
right away. We stick around until Starfleet attacks it.
Step 7 we make another public broadcast. This time, we show the
resaults of starfleet's "vicious" attack on a "peacefull civilian
transport carrying diplomats and their families". We linger of the
inocent children that have ben hurt and killed (of course, the ship
would be automated and the "diplomats" on board would be prisioners).
We make a point of showing that in our attacks, we specificly targeted
starfleet instillations, avoiding civilian casulties as much as
possible. We end with the statement that since the federation leaders
have showed themselves to be cruel, inhuman murders, we must take it
appon our selves to end their threat to our peacefull exploration of
this galaxy. Since the federation's leaders started killing civilians
and our hiding from us, we regreat that we have no choice anymore.
Step 8 is to repeat step 3 again, this time against planets. Our
primary goal here is to cause heavy collateral damage. With the
continual broadcasts of starfleet's inability to even slow us down,
the federation citizens will demand that their leaders do something to
stop it. We make it known that the imideate surrender of starfleet,
and the federation's leaders, will stop the war. We also make it know
that we still hold no grudge against the federation citizens, and for
their future good fortunes, we will still bring them in as a
protectorate.
Step 8 continues until ether the federation realizes that surrender is
their only hope, or the citizens force them to surrender.
Step 9 is to rebuild the federation. We not only repair all the
material damage, we go out of our way to make up for it. We give them
every wonder we can, and we do NOT indiscriminately slaughter anyone.
We even grant them limated self government (as in they govern their
own internal population, but that's it. Think individual states in
the US).
Step 10 only happens if rogue (read : not turned over to the empire)
ex-starfleet vessels attack imperial forces. After the first such
attack, we broadcast that any further attack will resault in an
imideate assult on the disgruntled part of the population that is
supporting them. (If we have to, we will make the evidence of the
support). This will soon force the ex starfleet vessels to stop
attacking, or risk killing those they are trying to protect.
Now, there are some that would use the existance of the 29th century
federation to try to disprove this. If you are one of those, read the
following.
Actualy, the existance of the 29th centery feds does NOT mean that the
24th century feds would win. Check out this reasoning.
The imperials send a task force in and demand the Fed's imediate
surrender. The feds realize they wouls stand less then zero chance of
wining in a millitary campaign (true), so they willingly surrender.
Ages go by, and the feds become a vital part of the empire (and later,
new republic). After about 200~300 years, the feds are such good
citizens that they are granted self government. By the time the 29th
century comes around, the United Federation of Planets is a proud
member of the Galactic Republic and is allowed to determine it's own
fate and has it's own laws.
Basicly, the relationship between the feds and the empire/republic
becomes the same as that in the USA between states and the federal
government.
And there is NOTHING in canon to disprove this.
Spyda
>
> And there is NOTHING in canon to disprove this.
1: The Federation does not open fire on unidentified ships.
2: Federation citizens aren't going to believe that their leaders are the
agressors after you've sent a transmission to their leaders demanding that
they join the empire.
3: As far as the Federation citizens are concerned, it's the word of some
pesky aliens vs the word of the first government in mankind's history to
provide utopia.
4: There is nothing canon confirming that a Star Destroyer can jump in and
out in 2 seconds and still attack a target effectively.
5: This is completely disreguarding the fact that there's more than just the
Federation to deal with.
6: This scenario is biased towards the Empire as it relies on the Imperials
having prior knowledge of Federation tactics etc, while the Federation
appears to have no information on the Empire whatsoever.
--
_ _ _ _
\\ \\ // // Alone in the darkness...
\\ || || //
_ \\ \\ // //
|________________________\\ \\_// //_____________________________
| ____________________ \\/ \// ____________________________/
|ICQ#: 39921647 /_\ /_\ http://www.nano.dk/~spyda /
|_______________________// | | \\_________________________/
_| // /| |\ \\
Not the only current // //| |\\ \\
regular of AGRSQ // // \___/ \\ \\
// \\
Graeme Dice
>
> SyG wrote:
> >
> > And there is NOTHING in canon to disprove this.
>
>
> 2: Federation citizens aren't going to believe that their leaders are the
> agressors after you've sent a transmission to their leaders demanding that
> they join the empire.
>
> 3: As far as the Federation citizens are concerned, it's the word of some
> pesky aliens vs the word of the first government in mankind's history to
> provide utopia.
Communist/socialist government that represses its citizens.
>
> 4: There is nothing canon confirming that a Star Destroyer can jump in and
> out in 2 seconds and still attack a target effectively.
There is one book where they do just that.
>
> 5: This is completely disreguarding the fact that there's more than just the
> Federation to deal with.
Not in this scenario there isn't. Note, that it is simply Imps versus
Feds.
>
> 6: This scenario is biased towards the Empire as it relies on the Imperials
> having prior knowledge of Federation tactics etc, while the Federation
> appears to have no information on the Empire whatsoever.
Information can be bought, if you have the price.
Graeme Dice
--
It has become appallingly obvious that our technology
has exceeded our humanity.
-- Albert Einstein
tran...@cybertown.com
Graeme Dice <grd...@home.com> wrote:
<snip>
> > 6: This scenario is biased towards the Empire as it relies on the
Imperials
> > having prior knowledge of Federation tactics etc, while the
Federation
> > appears to have no information on the Empire whatsoever.
>
> Information can be bought, if you have the price.
Or can be gained by stealthed scout ships. Or probe droids. Or many
other ways.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
John Kang
Exactly how fast is the hyperdrive mechanism in SW anyway? I've heard
Solo describe his fast ship the Falcon as being able to do .5 past
lightspeed. I don't know exactly what the .5 refers to but if it can't
be such a drastic change as by several hundred thousand times, as this
plan would suggest it being capable of. I think we can ignore most of
the books because we know most of the authors just use the tech as a
side note to the real storyline and don't bother to think too much into
the tech. Also, the Feds could develope hyperspace dampeners.
Hyperspace, after all, is the same thing as subspace (the term was
renamed for some reason). And we do know that the Feds have ways of
altering subspace.
John Kang
I read in a SW book (I think it was one of the Timothy Zahn ones) where
an Imperial Star Destroyer had to have a ship hyperspace in first, set
into position, and signal the SD before it could hyperspace in. This
was due to the fact that it was near impossible to calculate the end
jump point so close to a planet without landing in a place where you
would loose your ship.
Dalton
>
> Exactly how fast is the hyperdrive mechanism in SW anyway? I've heard
> Solo describe his fast ship the Falcon as being able to do .5 past
> lightspeed. I don't know exactly what the .5 refers to but if it can't
> be such a drastic change as by several hundred thousand times, as this
> plan would suggest it being capable of. I think we can ignore most of
> the books because we know most of the authors just use the tech as a
> side note to the real storyline and don't bother to think too much into
> the tech.
Canon examples place it at 29,000,000x or more the speed of light.
> Also, the Feds could develope hyperspace dampeners.
Unlikely.
> Hyperspace, after all, is the same thing as subspace (the term was
> renamed for some reason).
Proof? "hyper" means "above". "Sub" means "below".
> And we do know that the Feds have ways of altering subspace.
And we do know that in Star Wars use of subspace is considered
primitive.
--
Dalton
"Qui a coupé le fromage?" --Freakazoid
Dalton
You are referring to a tactic regarding the use of an Interdictor
Cruiser to define a point where an ISD would jump out of Hyperspace at
point-blank range to a planet or ship. This tactic does not mean that
hyperspace calcs are inaccurate; on the contrary, the Millennium Falcon
would have jumped out near Alderaan nearly one planetary diameter away
if it still existed. The tactic with the Interdictor was just a
convenient shortcut, allowing the ISDs to have knowledge of ship
positions et.al. before they jumped in and also to avoid having to make
any prolonged maneuvering.
Atomik Chicken
news:39717DD9...@prodigy.net...
>
> Exactly how fast is the hyperdrive mechanism in SW anyway? I've heard
> Solo describe his fast ship the Falcon as being able to do .5 past
> lightspeed. I don't know exactly what the .5 refers to but if it can't
> be such a drastic change as by several hundred thousand times, as this
> plan would suggest it being capable of. I think we can ignore most of
> the books because we know most of the authors just use the tech as a
> side note to the real storyline and don't bother to think too much into
> Hyperspace, after all, is the same thing as subspace (the term was
> altering subspace.
Grrr...FAQ...read it...
Spyda
> > >
> > 3: As far as the Federation citizens are concerned, it's the word of some
> > pesky aliens vs the word of the first government in mankind's history to
> > provide utopia.
>
> Communist/socialist government that represses its citizens.
I can't believe I'm still hearing this "The Federation is evil" bullshit. The
citizens of the Federation are happy, they all get along, and that's a canon
fact.
> >
> > 4: There is nothing canon confirming that a Star Destroyer can jump in and
> > out in 2 seconds and still attack a target effectively.
>
> There is one book where they do just that.
They could have done it to the rebel base on Hoth but didn't.
> >
> > 5: This is completely disreguarding the fact that there's more than just the
> > Federation to deal with.
>
> Not in this scenario there isn't. Note, that it is simply Imps versus
> Feds.
Still wouldn't happen.
> >
> > 6: This scenario is biased towards the Empire as it relies on the Imperials
> > having prior knowledge of Federation tactics etc, while the Federation
> > appears to have no information on the Empire whatsoever.
>
> Information can be bought, if you have the price.
It's still a biased scenario. Section 31 could just as easily have been
collecting information on the Empire. You can't have a fair VS debate when
you assume one side has been preparing and the other hasn't.
Graeme Dice
>
> Graeme Dice wrote:
> > > >
> > > 3: As far as the Federation citizens are concerned, it's the word of some
> > > pesky aliens vs the word of the first government in mankind's history to
> > > provide utopia.
> >
> > Communist/socialist government that represses its citizens.
>
> I can't believe I'm still hearing this "The Federation is evil" bullshit. The
> citizens of the Federation are happy, they all get along, and that's a canon
> fact.
That has nothing to do with whether the government is communist or not,
or if it represses its citizens. There were people who were happy in
Communist Russia you realize, and they were most likely to have
positions of power such as captains of ships. Also note that these
high-ranking officers of are the only people we ever really see do
anything.
>
> > >
> > > 4: There is nothing canon confirming that a Star Destroyer can jump in and
> > > out in 2 seconds and still attack a target effectively.
> >
> > There is one book where they do just that.
>
> They could have done it to the rebel base on Hoth but didn't.
They _did_ do it to freighters in a book. The rebels on Hoth had a
planetary shield in case you forgot that.
>
> > >
> > > 5: This is completely disreguarding the fact that there's more than just the
> > > Federation to deal with.
> >
> > Not in this scenario there isn't. Note, that it is simply Imps versus
> > Feds.
>
> Still wouldn't happen.
Why not? The Romulans would most likely join in on the Imperials side,
and the Klingons could be dealt with at the same time. The Dominion are
stuck behind a wormhole, and most other powers in the Alpha quadrant are
too small to be a threat.
>
> > >
> > > 6: This scenario is biased towards the Empire as it relies on the Imperials
> > > having prior knowledge of Federation tactics etc, while the Federation
> > > appears to have no information on the Empire whatsoever.
> >
> > Information can be bought, if you have the price.
>
> It's still a biased scenario. Section 31 could just as easily have been
> collecting information on the Empire. You can't have a fair VS debate when
> you assume one side has been preparing and the other hasn't.
Where is S31 going to collect this info from? The Ferengi would be
happy to sell the Imps info. There is no one to sell the Feds info.
Also, if you want a fair debate, then you are in the wrong argument.
The Imps so ridiculously overpower anything the entire galaxy can throw
at them that it is impossible for the battles to be _fair_.
Graeme Dice
--
Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a
minute.
That's relativity.
-- Albert Einstein
John Kang
Dalton wrote:
>
> John Kang wrote:
> >
> > Exactly how fast is the hyperdrive mechanism in SW anyway? I've heard
> > Solo describe his fast ship the Falcon as being able to do .5 past
> > lightspeed. I don't know exactly what the .5 refers to but if it can't
> > be such a drastic change as by several hundred thousand times, as this
> > plan would suggest it being capable of. I think we can ignore most of
> > the books because we know most of the authors just use the tech as a
> > side note to the real storyline and don't bother to think too much into
> > the tech.
>
>
>
>
> > Hyperspace, after all, is the same thing as subspace (the term was
> > renamed for some reason).
>
The theories on hyperspace is a region below normal space, don't know
why they call it "hyper" space, but it was originally dubbed subspace,
until later changed.
> > And we do know that the Feds have ways of altering subspace.
>
> And we do know that in Star Wars use of subspace is considered
> primitive.
Not really, all communications in Star Wars is subspace. Or so they say.
John Kang
Graeme Dice wrote:
>
> Spyda wrote:
> >
> > Graeme Dice wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > 3: As far as the Federation citizens are concerned, it's the word of some
> > > > pesky aliens vs the word of the first government in mankind's history to
> > > > provide utopia.
> > >
> > > Communist/socialist government that represses its citizens.
> >
> > I can't believe I'm still hearing this "The Federation is evil" bullshit. The
> > citizens of the Federation are happy, they all get along, and that's a canon
> > fact.
>
> That has nothing to do with whether the government is communist or not,
> or if it represses its citizens. There were people who were happy in
> Communist Russia you realize, and they were most likely to have
> positions of power such as captains of ships. Also note that these
> high-ranking officers of are the only people we ever really see do
> anything.
You're right, how happy the citizens are truely doesn't display what
government it is (which means that not every government besides
democracy is evil). If the Communist government actually got to work,
it's all good. However, let's examine the structure of the Federation
government:
1) There is a Federation Council, with ELECTED officials from a certain
number of worlds. There is a term in which temporary seats are given to
governments. Then there are seats for permanent seats, such as the U.N.
of Earth, and Several other governments that were the founders of the
Federation. Each new member of the Federation is allowed a vote and a
seat.
2) There is a commission of elected officials from every government
composing of the Federation. This commission decides on internal
policies.
3) There is a Federation Charter which garantees certain rights to each
member government of the Federation.
4) There is a judicial council which decides matter claims between each
government.
These are just the simple ones. However, as you see, the Federation, as
a whole is anything but a socialistic government. The individual
members of the Federation are free to run any government they choose so
long as their citizens are allowed to vote on elected officials for the
Federation Council and other commissions of the Federation government.
It's much like the U.N.
> > > > 4: There is nothing canon confirming that a Star Destroyer can jump in and
> > > > out in 2 seconds and still attack a target effectively.
> > >
> > > There is one book where they do just that.
> >
> > They could have done it to the rebel base on Hoth but didn't.
>
> They _did_ do it to freighters in a book. The rebels on Hoth had a
> planetary shield in case you forgot that.
Ok, I keep hearing they did it in a book. Guess what, books are
inconsistent. We've never seen it done in the movies or even spoken of,
what makes you think that it's fact? With Star Trek there are series
and movies in which stuff could be derived, most of the books written,
however, can be very inconsistent. For example, in the book Q-Squared,
a young Q supposedly had parents. Well, if in Voyager, that was the
first Q baby to be born ever, then how could this one have parents?
Authors don't exactly spend too much effort coordinating what they say
about the specific details, they're writing for the character plot.
> > > > 5: This is completely disreguarding the fact that there's more than just the
> > > > Federation to deal with.
> > >
> > > Not in this scenario there isn't. Note, that it is simply Imps versus
> > > Feds.
> >
> > Still wouldn't happen.
>
> Why not? The Romulans would most likely join in on the Imperials side,
> and the Klingons could be dealt with at the same time. The Dominion are
> stuck behind a wormhole, and most other powers in the Alpha quadrant are
> too small to be a threat.
And for this base of operations that would be setup in the galaxy, where
would this be? The Delta Quadrant with the Borg? The Gamma Quadrant
with the Dominion? The Beta Quadrant with the Romulans and Klingons?
I doubt the Empire, even with hyperspace technology, is able to cross
the galactic barrier.
> > > > 6: This scenario is biased towards the Empire as it relies on the Imperials
> > > > having prior knowledge of Federation tactics etc, while the Federation
> > > > appears to have no information on the Empire whatsoever.
> > >
> > > Information can be bought, if you have the price.
> >
> > It's still a biased scenario. Section 31 could just as easily have been
> > collecting information on the Empire. You can't have a fair VS debate when
> > you assume one side has been preparing and the other hasn't.
>
> Where is S31 going to collect this info from? The Ferengi would be
> happy to sell the Imps info. There is no one to sell the Feds info.
> Also, if you want a fair debate, then you are in the wrong argument.
> The Imps so ridiculously overpower anything the entire galaxy can throw
> at them that it is impossible for the battles to be _fair_.
Hence the pointlessness in discussing it. Also, the 2 universes seem to
use different ideas of science anyway. SW ships is suppose to travel
through hyperspace (subspace, later renamed). In the ST universe,
subspace is a region in which gravimetric disturbances and eddies make
it impossible to navigate. Also, would those turbolasers on a Star
Destroyer even affect planetary shields? Or even ships with shields?
They seem to me like pumped-up versions of hand-blasters. And those
don't seem very powerful at all. How would deflectors on a Star
Destroyer match against photon torpedoes? We don't know.
Durandal
[Ok, I keep hearing they did it in a book. Guess what, books are
inconsistent. We've never seen it done in the movies or even
spoken of,
what makes you think that it's fact? With Star Trek there are
series and
movies in which stuff could be derived, most of the books
written,
however, can be very inconsistent. For example, in the book
Q-Squared,
a young Q supposedly had parents. Well, if in Voyager, that was
the first
Q baby to be born ever, then how could this one have parents?
Authors
don't exactly spend too much effort coordinating what they say
about
---
Guess what? The novels are an official part of the SW Universe.
All the
events that happened in the novels happened in the SW Universe.
They
can be used as a source of information unless DIRECTLY
contradicted by
the ultimate canon (the movies).
Trek novels are NOT official. They do NOT undergo the same
consistency
tests that SW novels do.
Both of these are Lucasfilm, Ltd. and Paramount Pictures policy,
respectively.
[And for this base of operations that would be setup in the
galaxy,
where would this be? The Delta Quadrant with the Borg? The Gamma
Quadrant with the Dominion? The Beta Quadrant with the Romulans
and
Klingons? I doubt the Empire, even with hyperspace technology,
is able
to cross the galactic barrier.]
---
Wormhole. They can set up a base of operations literally
ANYWHERE they
want in the ST Galaxy. It can be in a little, remote sector,
far, FAR away
from any major powers' control. Hyperspace gives them this
advantage.
Even if any superpowers found out where they were hiding, it
would
take them years to reach the place with their slow warp drives.
[Hence the pointlessness in discussing it. Also, the 2 universes
seem to
use different ideas of science anyway. SW ships is suppose to
travel
through hyperspace (subspace, later renamed). In the ST universe,
subspace is a region in which gravimetric disturbances and eddies
make it impossible to navigate. Also, would those turbolasers on
a Star
Destroyer even affect planetary shields? Or even ships with
shields?
They seem to me like pumped-up versions of hand-blasters. And
those
don't seem very powerful at all. How would deflectors on a Star
Destroyer match against photon torpedoes? We don't know.]
---
Hyperspace is not subspace. "Hyper" means "above." "Sub" means
"below."
We don't KNOW, but we can make educated guesses, based on
observed
evidence from both of the series. It doesn't matter if
Turbolasers would
affect planetary shields, since there is no evidence that Trek
has them
(Wars does, BTW).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dalton
>
> Dalton wrote:
> >
> > John Kang wrote:
> > >
> > > Exactly how fast is the hyperdrive mechanism in SW anyway? I've heard
> > > Solo describe his fast ship the Falcon as being able to do .5 past
> > > lightspeed. I don't know exactly what the .5 refers to but if it can't
> > > be such a drastic change as by several hundred thousand times, as this
> > > plan would suggest it being capable of. I think we can ignore most of
> > > the books because we know most of the authors just use the tech as a
> > > side note to the real storyline and don't bother to think too much into
> > > the tech.
> >
> > Canon examples place it at 29,000,000x or more the speed of light.
> >
> > > Also, the Feds could develope hyperspace dampeners.
> >
> > Unlikely.
> >
> > > Hyperspace, after all, is the same thing as subspace (the term was
> > > renamed for some reason).
> >
> > Proof? "hyper" means "above". "Sub" means "below".
>
> The theories on hyperspace is a region below normal space, don't know
> why they call it "hyper" space, but it was originally dubbed subspace,
> until later changed.
>
Which theories on hyperspace/subspace?
> > > And we do know that the Feds have ways of altering subspace.
> >
> > And we do know that in Star Wars use of subspace is considered
> > primitive.
>
> Not really, all communications in Star Wars is subspace. Or so they say.
And subspace comms are considered primitive. Hence why they have
hypercomms.
Jonathan Boyd
to be doing it in Spacebattles format, which is a lot harder to read here
than standard newsgroup format. Be a lot easier t follow your argument if
you formatted it the same way as everyone else.
--
Jonathan
AIM: BoydClone | STvsSW website: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/index.html
Ensigns, Ensigns
Our brave boys in red
A few brief moments,
Then they're dead.
Graeme Dice
>
> Graeme Dice wrote:
> >
<snip>
> >
> > That has nothing to do with whether the government is communist or not,
> > or if it represses its citizens. There were people who were happy in
> > Communist Russia you realize, and they were most likely to have
> > positions of power such as captains of ships. Also note that these
> > high-ranking officers of are the only people we ever really see do
> > anything.
>
> You're right, how happy the citizens are truely doesn't display what
> government it is (which means that not every government besides
> democracy is evil). If the Communist government actually got to work,
> it's all good. However, let's examine the structure of the Federation
> government:
> 1) There is a Federation Council, with ELECTED officials from a certain
> number of worlds. There is a term in which temporary seats are given to
> governments. Then there are seats for permanent seats, such as the U.N.
> of Earth, and Several other governments that were the founders of the
> Federation. Each new member of the Federation is allowed a vote and a
> seat.
The Communist party in Russia was also elected in case you didn't
realize that. They considered themselves officially to be a democracy.
There just happened to be only one party you could really vote for.
> 2) There is a commission of elected officials from every government
> composing of the Federation. This commission decides on internal
> policies.
Same as in communist Russia.
> 3) There is a Federation Charter which garantees certain rights to each
> member government of the Federation.
Even a repressive government can give its citizens some rights.
> 4) There is a judicial council which decides matter claims between each
> government.
Seen where?
>
> These are just the simple ones. However, as you see, the Federation, as
> a whole is anything but a socialistic government. The individual
> members of the Federation are free to run any government they choose so
> long as their citizens are allowed to vote on elected officials for the
> Federation Council and other commissions of the Federation government.
> It's much like the U.N.
It sounds exactly like a communist government to me. You have shown
that the Federation could be a nice place to live, but have not shown
that there is free, non-government controlled enterprise. Without free
enterprise, the government _must_ be considered communist.
> > > > There is one book where they do just that.
> > >
> > > They could have done it to the rebel base on Hoth but didn't.
> >
> > They _did_ do it to freighters in a book. The rebels on Hoth had a
> > planetary shield in case you forgot that.
>
> Ok, I keep hearing they did it in a book. Guess what, books are
> inconsistent. We've never seen it done in the movies or even spoken of,
> what makes you think that it's fact?
Read the rules. It's not contradicted, so it stands.
> With Star Trek there are series
> and movies in which stuff could be derived, most of the books written,
> however, can be very inconsistent. For example, in the book Q-Squared,
> a young Q supposedly had parents. Well, if in Voyager, that was the
> first Q baby to be born ever, then how could this one have parents?
> Authors don't exactly spend too much effort coordinating what they say
> about the specific details, they're writing for the character plot.
Here you are ignoring the fact that SW books are official, and have
remarkably few inconsistencies, while ST books are not considered at
all, and are full of so many inconsistencies as to be useless in these
sorts of debates.
> > > Still wouldn't happen.
> >
> > Why not? The Romulans would most likely join in on the Imperials side,
> > and the Klingons could be dealt with at the same time. The Dominion are
> > stuck behind a wormhole, and most other powers in the Alpha quadrant are
> > too small to be a threat.
>
> And for this base of operations that would be setup in the galaxy, where
> would this be? The Delta Quadrant with the Borg? The Gamma Quadrant
> with the Dominion? The Beta Quadrant with the Romulans and Klingons?
> I doubt the Empire, even with hyperspace technology, is able to cross
> the galactic barrier.
Find a single planet in the farthest outer reaches of the galaxy, and
build your base there. Since it would takes decades for the Federation
to reach their base, it's safe enough.
> > > It's still a biased scenario. Section 31 could just as easily have been
> > > collecting information on the Empire. You can't have a fair VS debate when
> > > you assume one side has been preparing and the other hasn't.
> >
> > Where is S31 going to collect this info from? The Ferengi would be
> > happy to sell the Imps info. There is no one to sell the Feds info.
> > Also, if you want a fair debate, then you are in the wrong argument.
> > The Imps so ridiculously overpower anything the entire galaxy can throw
> > at them that it is impossible for the battles to be _fair_.
>
> Hence the pointlessness in discussing it. Also, the 2 universes seem to
> use different ideas of science anyway. SW ships is suppose to travel
> through hyperspace (subspace, later renamed).
No, subspace is _not_ hyperspace in SW. The two are clearly different,
as outlined in Han Solo and the Lost Legacy.
> In the ST universe,
> subspace is a region in which gravimetric disturbances and eddies make
> it impossible to navigate. Also, would those turbolasers on a Star
> Destroyer even affect planetary shields? Or even ships with shields?
Of course they would, unless of course you are going to claim immunity
to turbolasers simply because of their name.
> They seem to me like pumped-up versions of hand-blasters. And those
> don't seem very powerful at all. How would deflectors on a Star
> Destroyer match against photon torpedoes? We don't know.
We don't know for certain, but we can figure it out from the known
information, or have you forgotten the entire purpose of this group. An
SD can withstand it's own firepower for at least half an hour, so it
would take thousands of photorps to even make a noticeable dent in the
shields.
Graeme Dice
>
> Dalton wrote:
> >
> > John Kang wrote:
> > >
> > > Exactly how fast is the hyperdrive mechanism in SW anyway? I've heard
> > > Solo describe his fast ship the Falcon as being able to do .5 past
> > > lightspeed. I don't know exactly what the .5 refers to but if it can't
> > > be such a drastic change as by several hundred thousand times, as this
> > > plan would suggest it being capable of. I think we can ignore most of
> > > the books because we know most of the authors just use the tech as a
> > > side note to the real storyline and don't bother to think too much into
> > > the tech.
> >
> > Canon examples place it at 29,000,000x or more the speed of light.
> >
> > > Also, the Feds could develope hyperspace dampeners.
> >
> > Unlikely.
> >
> > > Hyperspace, after all, is the same thing as subspace (the term was
> > > renamed for some reason).
> >
> > Proof? "hyper" means "above". "Sub" means "below".
>
> The theories on hyperspace is a region below normal space, don't know
> why they call it "hyper" space, but it was originally dubbed subspace,
> until later changed.
Where is your info that you get this from?
>
> > > And we do know that the Feds have ways of altering subspace.
> >
> > And we do know that in Star Wars use of subspace is considered
> > primitive.
>
> Not really, all communications in Star Wars is subspace. Or so they say.
No, all communications were done in subspace 25,000 years ago in the SW
galaxy, before the rise of the old republic.
SyG
wrote:
>> > 6: This scenario is biased towards the Empire as it relies on the Imperials
>> > having prior knowledge of Federation tactics etc, while the Federation
>> > appears to have no information on the Empire whatsoever.
>>
>> Information can be bought, if you have the price.
>
>It's still a biased scenario. Section 31 could just as easily have been
>collecting information on the Empire. You can't have a fair VS debate when
>you assume one side has been preparing and the other hasn't.
Time for me to interject again....
First off, I assumed NO advanced knowledge of tactics and abiliteis on
ether side. The hit and run stratigy outlined would be usefull
against any oponenet because of the breif time spent in system is not
long enough for effective firing against the attacker. The speed of
hyperspace, in and off it's self, make the tactic that much better,
since by the time the defenders could react, the attacker would be far
away.
As for section 31 having information on the empire.... just how did it
get to the SW galaxy? With the speeds of the ST and SW FTL drives,
it's all but impossible for ST to get to the SW galaxy, but only a
relitivly minor problem for SW to get to the ST galaxay. That is
assuming, of course, that the galaxies are in teh same cluster (or
supercluster).
Graeme Dice
>
> SyG wrote:
>
> > Step 3 is a demonstration of power. After waiting for the
> > federation's reply, we send a single imperial vessal (an ISD will work
> > fine) to attack. We calculate 2 hyperspace jumps (one going to
> > target, one leaving target). We also, of course, determine what our
> > alignment with the target will be, and train our guns to hit said
> > target before we jump (simple geometry). The target will be a
> > starfleet instillation. What we shall do next is to syncronize
> > everything. End result will be the ISD jumps in, fires emediately,
> > and jumps out. Total time in system is less then 2 seconds. This is
> > not enough time for a starfleet vessel to locate, target, fire, and
> > hit for effect before we are gone.
>
> Ships come out of hyperspace around 6 diameters away from a planet
> (around 70,000 km for Earth) and there is no evidence that ISDs have
> anywhere near this sort of weapons range. The best ranges we have seen
> them use is the initial stages of the battle of Endor, which was several
> hundred kilometers and seemed to be indecisive compared with short range
> fire.
They can hit planets at that range, which is all that is needed to
destroy any enemy without planetary shields.
>
> > Step 6 we send in a civilian transport. It does the hyperspacejump in
> > just like the ISD did in the previous ones, but does not jump out
> > right away. We stick around until Starfleet attacks it.
>
> Second flaw, Starfleet wouldn't attack. Even during the Dominion War
> they didn't start attacking unarmed ships on sight.
Graeme Dice
--
Life is a sexually transmited terminal disease.
Durandal
get italics?
Dalton
>
> Boyd: This is plain text format, if I'm not mistaken. How do I
> get italics?
He means the little ">" marks before quoted text. HTML posting is
strongly disdained here, so I would not reccomend trying ;^)
Dalton
>
> Our spies intercepted the following article from Durandal at
> durandal6...@mac.com.invalid:
>
> > Boyd: This is plain text format, if I'm not mistaken. How do I
> > get italics?
>
> this:
>
> **
> ----
> > The next someone is replying to would be on lines beginning with a '>'
>
> The new text being added would just be typed normally.
> ----
> **
>
> You seem to do it differently, a bit like the way the SBers do it.
>
> Out of curiosity, how are you reading the group? I'm guessing that you have
> a Mac since your address is an @mac.com, so why don't you try using a
> standard program like Outlook Express or Netscape Communicator? They'll
> quote messages being replied to in the way everyone else (with the exception
> of Paul Jaques who, being a frog, uses colons) does.
Paul Jacques reads this group with TIN. ROFL
Dalton
[snip]
> Out of curiosity, how are you reading the group? I'm guessing that you have
> a Mac since your address is an @mac.com, so why don't you try using a
> standard program like Outlook Express or Netscape Communicator? They'll
> quote messages being replied to in the way everyone else (with the exception
> of Paul Jaques who, being a frog, uses colons) does.
Oh yeah, he's using RemarQ.
Durandal, use the "quote original message" button. It's a pain to
reformat, but worth it.
Durandal
but I
don't get nearly all the threads through it, for some reason. I
get a lot of
messages by Crazy9000...
Nothing more than that, though.
John Kang
Durandal wrote:
>
> John Kang:
> [Ok, I keep hearing they did it in a book. Guess what, books are
> inconsistent. We've never seen it done in the movies or even
> spoken of,
> what makes you think that it's fact? With Star Trek there are
> series and
> movies in which stuff could be derived, most of the books
> written,
> however, can be very inconsistent. For example, in the book
> Q-Squared,
> a young Q supposedly had parents. Well, if in Voyager, that was
> the first
> Q baby to be born ever, then how could this one have parents?
> Authors
> don't exactly spend too much effort coordinating what they say
> about
> ---
> Guess what? The novels are an official part of the SW Universe.
> All the
> events that happened in the novels happened in the SW Universe.
> They
> can be used as a source of information unless DIRECTLY
> contradicted by
> the ultimate canon (the movies).
> Trek novels are NOT official. They do NOT undergo the same
> consistency
> tests that SW novels do.
> Both of these are Lucasfilm, Ltd. and Paramount Pictures policy,
> respectively.
So that's why there are contradictions between the novels? Characters
being in one book but never existed in the timeline of another. Ships
needing hyperspace jump points to be located by another ship before in
one book, and then able to jump in anywhere in the other. Ships taking
minutes to make the jump to light speed while in the books they are said
to only take seconds.
> [And for this base of operations that would be setup in the
> galaxy,
> where would this be? The Delta Quadrant with the Borg? The Gamma
> Quadrant with the Dominion? The Beta Quadrant with the Romulans
> and
> Klingons? I doubt the Empire, even with hyperspace technology,
> is able
> to cross the galactic barrier.]
> ---
> Wormhole. They can set up a base of operations literally
> ANYWHERE they
> want in the ST Galaxy. It can be in a little, remote sector,
> far, FAR away
> from any major powers' control. Hyperspace gives them this
> advantage.
> Even if any superpowers found out where they were hiding, it
> would
> take them years to reach the place with their slow warp drives.
The Borg cover the Delta Quadrant, the Dominion covers the Gamma
Quadrant, the Klingons/Romulans covers the Beta Quadrant and the
Federation covers the Alpha Quadrant, where would they go that'll be far
away from any major power?
> [Hence the pointlessness in discussing it. Also, the 2 universes
> seem to
> use different ideas of science anyway. SW ships is suppose to
> travel
> through hyperspace (subspace, later renamed). In the ST universe,
> subspace is a region in which gravimetric disturbances and eddies
> make it impossible to navigate. Also, would those turbolasers on
> a Star
> Destroyer even affect planetary shields? Or even ships with
> shields?
> They seem to me like pumped-up versions of hand-blasters. And
> those
> don't seem very powerful at all. How would deflectors on a Star
> Destroyer match against photon torpedoes? We don't know.]
> ---
> Hyperspace is not subspace. "Hyper" means "above." "Sub" means
> "below."
> We don't KNOW, but we can make educated guesses, based on
> observed
> evidence from both of the series. It doesn't matter if
> Turbolasers would
> affect planetary shields, since there is no evidence that Trek
> has them
> (Wars does, BTW).
The term "hyperspace" is incorrectly stated. I don't know why they
changed it, but if you do read up on theories about it, hyperspace IS a
region below normal space.
Trek manuals says there are planetary shields.
John Kang
> Even a repressive government can give its citizens some rights.
By your logic, the US would also be considered a repressive government.
> > 4) There is a judicial council which decides matter claims between each
> > government.
>
> Seen where?
manuals
> > These are just the simple ones. However, as you see, the Federation, as
> > a whole is anything but a socialistic government. The individual
> > members of the Federation are free to run any government they choose so
> > long as their citizens are allowed to vote on elected officials for the
> > Federation Council and other commissions of the Federation government.
> > It's much like the U.N.
>
> It sounds exactly like a communist government to me. You have shown
> that the Federation could be a nice place to live, but have not shown
> that there is free, non-government controlled enterprise. Without free
> enterprise, the government _must_ be considered communist.
Communism does not have individual members as sovereign states,
everything is government owned.
> > Ok, I keep hearing they did it in a book. Guess what, books are
> > inconsistent. We've never seen it done in the movies or even spoken of,
> > what makes you think that it's fact?
>
> Read the rules. It's not contradicted, so it stands.
So the fact that in one book, a ship is able to enter hyperspace at a
specific point only by having a ship jump in first and set the
coordinates, and then in another book, it can jump in and out in 2
seconds is not a contradiction?
> > With Star Trek there are series
> > and movies in which stuff could be derived, most of the books written,
> > however, can be very inconsistent. For example, in the book Q-Squared,
> > a young Q supposedly had parents. Well, if in Voyager, that was the
> > first Q baby to be born ever, then how could this one have parents?
> > Authors don't exactly spend too much effort coordinating what they say
> > about the specific details, they're writing for the character plot.
>
> Here you are ignoring the fact that SW books are official, and have
> remarkably few inconsistencies, while ST books are not considered at
> all, and are full of so many inconsistencies as to be useless in these
> sorts of debates.
Remarkably few, still has them, which means they are not actually
realistic, just carefully thought out.
> > And for this base of operations that would be setup in the galaxy, where
> > would this be? The Delta Quadrant with the Borg? The Gamma Quadrant
> > with the Dominion? The Beta Quadrant with the Romulans and Klingons?
> > I doubt the Empire, even with hyperspace technology, is able to cross
> > the galactic barrier.
>
> Find a single planet in the farthest outer reaches of the galaxy, and
> build your base there. Since it would takes decades for the Federation
> to reach their base, it's safe enough.
What about the other major powers? Anywhere in the galaxy is within
reach of one or the other major powers. And the Borg with their
transwarp technology should be able to assimilate the hyperspace
technology.
> > > Where is S31 going to collect this info from? The Ferengi would be
> > > happy to sell the Imps info. There is no one to sell the Feds info.
> > > Also, if you want a fair debate, then you are in the wrong argument.
> > > The Imps so ridiculously overpower anything the entire galaxy can throw
> > > at them that it is impossible for the battles to be _fair_.
> >
> > Hence the pointlessness in discussing it. Also, the 2 universes seem to
> > use different ideas of science anyway. SW ships is suppose to travel
> > through hyperspace (subspace, later renamed).
>
> No, subspace is _not_ hyperspace in SW. The two are clearly different,
> as outlined in Han Solo and the Lost Legacy.
Well current theories about hyperspace is that it's what use to be
called subspace.
> > In the ST universe,
> > subspace is a region in which gravimetric disturbances and eddies make
> > it impossible to navigate. Also, would those turbolasers on a Star
> > Destroyer even affect planetary shields? Or even ships with shields?
> Of course they would, unless of course you are going to claim immunity
> to turbolasers simply because of their name.
How do you know they would affect it? We've never actually seen what
they would do against spacial distortions, all we've seen is it blast a
black spot on the side of a ship, which, by the way, didn't seem all
that powerful at all.
> > They seem to me like pumped-up versions of hand-blasters. And those
> > don't seem very powerful at all. How would deflectors on a Star
> > Destroyer match against photon torpedoes? We don't know.
>
> We don't know for certain, but we can figure it out from the known
> information, or have you forgotten the entire purpose of this group. An
> SD can withstand it's own firepower for at least half an hour, so it
> would take thousands of photorps to even make a noticeable dent in the
> shields.
How do you know what a photon torpedoe's firingpower is compared to a
turbolaser? From what I've seen of the turbolasers they're not that
powerful at all.
John Kang
Wait wait wait, intergalactic travel? It took hours for the Millenium
Falcon (very fast ship) to travel from the one sector to the neigboring,
by this, I assume it can cross the galaxy within a matter of months.
Now, considering that the space between galaxies is hundreds of millions
of light years, it would mean it'd take them about 1000 years to reach
the ST galaxy, then there's the problem of crossing the galactic
barrier, which is just downright impossible.
John Kang
Graeme Dice wrote:
>
> John Kang wrote:
> >
> > Dalton wrote:
> > >
> > > John Kang wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Exactly how fast is the hyperdrive mechanism in SW anyway? I've heard
> > > > Solo describe his fast ship the Falcon as being able to do .5 past
> > > > lightspeed. I don't know exactly what the .5 refers to but if it can't
> > > > be such a drastic change as by several hundred thousand times, as this
> > > > plan would suggest it being capable of. I think we can ignore most of
> > > > the books because we know most of the authors just use the tech as a
> > > > side note to the real storyline and don't bother to think too much into
> > > > the tech.
> > >
> > > Canon examples place it at 29,000,000x or more the speed of light.
> > >
> > > > Also, the Feds could develope hyperspace dampeners.
> > >
> > > Unlikely.
> > >
> > > > Hyperspace, after all, is the same thing as subspace (the term was
> > > > renamed for some reason).
> > >
> > > Proof? "hyper" means "above". "Sub" means "below".
> >
> > The theories on hyperspace is a region below normal space, don't know
> > why they call it "hyper" space, but it was originally dubbed subspace,
> > until later changed.
>
> Where is your info that you get this from?
Steven Hawking recently published a newsletter I managed to get a look
at outlining the theoretical properties of hyperspace. Also, if you
want to go Sci Fi reference, it was explaned in Lost in Space.
> > > > And we do know that the Feds have ways of altering subspace.
> > >
> > > And we do know that in Star Wars use of subspace is considered
> > > primitive.
> >
> > Not really, all communications in Star Wars is subspace. Or so they say.
>
> No, all communications were done in subspace 25,000 years ago in the SW
> galaxy, before the rise of the old republic.
In the one of the SW books I've read, an incomming transmission to
Corescant to Princess Leia was transmitted in subspace. There were
subspace tranceivers used.
Kyle
MF took an hour of two to travel across half of the galaxy. 60,000 lys.
So it can cross the galaxy in less then a day, TPM shows Darth Maul in a
slow class three hyperdrive traveling a similar distance from Coruscant
to Naboo in less then a day.
--
Kyle Knopf
Dalton
Where the hell do you get this one from?
> by this, I assume it can cross the galaxy within a matter of months.
> Now, considering that the space between galaxies is hundreds of millions
> of light years, it would mean it'd take them about 1000 years to reach
> the ST galaxy, then there's the problem of crossing the galactic
> barrier, which is just downright impossible.
Darth Maul crossed HALF A GALAXY in TWELVE HOURS!
Kyle
> > by this, I assume it can cross the galaxy within a matter of months.
> > Now, considering that the space between galaxies is hundreds of millions
> > of light years, it would mean it'd take them about 1000 years to reach
> > the ST galaxy, then there's the problem of crossing the galactic
> > barrier, which is just downright impossible.
>
> Darth Maul crossed HALF A GALAXY in TWELVE HOURS!
From the NJO map it looks like the distance from Tatooine to Alderaan is
somewhat greater then the distance from Naboo to Coruscant. But Han
seems to have covered it in a much shorter time, just thought I'd
mention the insane speeds of the Falcon.
--
Kyle Knopf
Dalton
Very insane.
Kyle
Isn't it great, but you know what's best about SW speeds? The ships are
so fast you could never have a Voyager in SW:)
--
Kyle Knopf
Dalton
ROFL! The closest you'd come is being stuck in a TIE fighter between
systems :)
Durandal
**
----
So that's why there are contradictions between the novels?
Characters
being in one book but never existed in the timeline of another.
Ships
needing hyperspace jump points to be located by another ship
before in
one book, and then able to jump in anywhere in the other. Ships
taking
minutes to make the jump to light speed while in the books they
are
said to only take seconds.
**
You're obviously not listening to me. It is Lucasfilm's policy
to subject
each potential SW novel to a rigorous series of consistency
tests to
ensure that it will fit in the SW Universe. Therefore, each
novel written is
an official part of the SW Universe and can be used as a
reference point.
Hyperspace inconsistencies can be rationalized by the fact that
the
shorter straight-line course may have more stellar hazards than
the
longer straight-line course, and therefore, requires additional
time.
And, Trek novels carry no such authority with the exception of
Mosaic.
**
----
The Borg cover the Delta Quadrant, the Dominion covers the Gamma
Quadrant, the Klingons/Romulans covers the Beta Quadrant and the
Federation covers the Alpha Quadrant, where would they go
that'll be
far away from any major power?
----
**
Then, why did it take Voyager so long to run into them in the
Delta
Quadrant? Do you have any proof of your allegations? I don't
remember
anyone stating that the Klingons and Romulans cover the ENTIRE
Beta
Quadrant. Picard explicity stated in ST:FC that the Federation
spanned
8,000 light years. That is HARDLY 1/4 of the Galaxy.
**
----
The term "hyperspace" is incorrectly stated. I don't know why
they
changed it, but if you do read up on theories about it,
hyperspace IS a
region below normal space.
Trek manuals says there are planetary shields.
----
**
Subspace's speed, as stated by the TM, is 200,000c. Hyperspace
has been
observed, in canon events, to be 50 million c (Darth Maul's ship
going
from the Core to the Outer Rim in a matter of hours). The two
technologies are clearly different.
**
----
So the fact that in one book, a ship is able to enter hyperspace
at a
specific point only by having a ship jump in first and set the
coordinates,
and then in another book, it can jump in and out in 2 seconds is
not a
contradiction?
----
**
The ULTIMATE source is the movies. Whenever a novel contradicts
the
movies, the movies win. If two novels contradict eachother, you
simply
go to the movies for reference, or rationalize it. And, your
points are
uselss and vague, as they do not give specific examples.
**
----
What about the other major powers? Anywhere in the galaxy is
within
reach of one or the other major powers. And the Borg with their
transwarp technology should be able to assimilate the hyperspace
technology.
----
**
No, anywhere in the galaxy is NOT within reach of the major
powers. The
Borg had NO presence in Kazon territory in the first season of
ST:Voyager. The Federation only spans 8,000 lightyears. Hardly
"everywhere."
Borg Transwarp is much different from Hyperspace. Transwarp
requires
building conduits to make it accessible (Dark Frontier).
**
----
Well current theories about hyperspace is that it's what use to
be called
subspace.
----
**
First, I'll ask you to remember that we are debating FICTIONAL
universes.
Second, I'll ask you to provide source material for the claims
that you
are spouting. Otherwise, they are just unsubstantiated bullshit.
**
----
How do you know they would affect it? We've never actually seen
what
they would do against spacial distortions, all we've seen is it
blast a
black spot on the side of a ship, which, by the way, didn't seem
all that
powerful at all.
----
**
Again, I'll ask you for source material. Turbolasers have been
calculated
to pour out many gigatons of energy per second. Federation
shields can
withstand about 200,000TJ of energy.
(www.stardestroyer.net/Empire.html)
**
----
How do you know what a photon torpedoe's firingpower is compared
to
a turbolaser? From what I've seen of the turbolasers they're not
that
powerful at all.
----
**
I've seen phasers and they're not that powerful. How does that
sound?
You're wasting time with your unsubstantiated claims. Again, go
to
www.stardestroyer.net/Empire.html
It is run by an engineer who has a degree in physics. Feel free
to contest
his opinions.
**
----
Wait wait wait, intergalactic travel? It took hours for the
Millenium
Falcon (very fast ship) to travel from the one sector to the
neigboring, by
this, I assume it can cross the galaxy within a matter of
months. Now,
considering that the space between galaxies is hundreds of
millions of
light years, it would mean it'd take them about 1000 years to
reach the
ST galaxy, then there's the problem of crossing the galactic
barrier,
which is just downright impossible.
----
**
Tatooine is on the Outer Rim. Alderaan is in the Core Worlds.
Solo
transversed that distance in less than a day ("We'll arrive at
Alderaan at
around 0300"-ANH)
Plus, we generally assume that there is a wormhole connecting
the two
galaxies.
**
----
Steven Hawking recently published a newsletter I managed to get
a look
at outlining the theoretical properties of hyperspace. Also, if
you want
to go Sci Fi reference, it was explaned in Lost in Space.
----
**
Did you UNDERSTAND those theories, by any chance? Reading a
newsletter doesn't qualify you to make judgements that two
technologies from entirely different Universes are exactly the
same,
despite exhibiting different properties.
**
----
In the one of the SW books I've read, an incomming transmission
to
Corescant to Princess Leia was transmitted in subspace. There
were
subspace tranceivers used.
----
**
Source information is not "one of the Star Wars books that I
read."
Dalton
>
> Dalton <dalto...@nospam.erols.com> wrote in message
> news:39726B78...@nospam.erols.com...
> > Kyle wrote:
> > >
> > > Dalton wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Kyle wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Dalton wrote:
> months.
> > > > > > > Now, considering that the space between galaxies is hundreds of
> millions
> > > > > > > of light years, it would mean it'd take them about 1000 years to
> reach
> > > > > > > the ST galaxy, then there's the problem of crossing the galactic
> > > > > > > barrier, which is just downright impossible.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From the NJO map it looks like the distance from Tatooine to
> Alderaan is
> > > > > somewhat greater then the distance from Naboo to Coruscant. But Han
> > > > > seems to have covered it in a much shorter time, just thought I'd
> > > > > mention the insane speeds of the Falcon.
> > > >
> > > > Very insane.
> > >
> > > Isn't it great, but you know what's best about SW speeds? The ships are
> > > so fast you could never have a Voyager in SW:)
> >
> > ROFL! The closest you'd come is being stuck in a TIE fighter between
> > systems :)
> >
Precisely.
Crayz9000
"John Kang" <god...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:39728C6E...@prodigy.net...
>
> > Even a repressive government can give its citizens some rights.
>
> By your logic, the US would also be considered a repressive government.
Then maybe it is. Remember all the censorship going on now? Clinton wanting
to regulate the Internet? Wake up, ostrich.
> > > 4) There is a judicial council which decides matter claims between
each
> > > government.
> >
> > Seen where?
>
> manuals
Name the manual.
> > > These are just the simple ones. However, as you see, the Federation,
as
> > > a whole is anything but a socialistic government. The individual
> > > members of the Federation are free to run any government they choose
so
> > > long as their citizens are allowed to vote on elected officials for
the
> > > Federation Council and other commissions of the Federation government.
> > > It's much like the U.N.
> >
> > It sounds exactly like a communist government to me. You have shown
> > that the Federation could be a nice place to live, but have not shown
> > that there is free, non-government controlled enterprise. Without free
> > enterprise, the government _must_ be considered communist.
>
> Communism does not have individual members as sovereign states,
> everything is government owned.
Well, you've finally got something right. Congradulations. Oh, by the way,
concession accepted.
> > > Ok, I keep hearing they did it in a book. Guess what, books are
> > > inconsistent. We've never seen it done in the movies or even spoken
of,
> > > what makes you think that it's fact?
> >
> > Read the rules. It's not contradicted, so it stands.
>
> So the fact that in one book, a ship is able to enter hyperspace at a
> specific point only by having a ship jump in first and set the
> coordinates, and then in another book, it can jump in and out in 2
> seconds is not a contradiction?
In your "one book," the system was probably not mapped out yet. In the
other, the system was likely already mapped.
> > > With Star Trek there are series
> > > and movies in which stuff could be derived, most of the books written,
> > > however, can be very inconsistent. For example, in the book
Q-Squared,
> > > a young Q supposedly had parents. Well, if in Voyager, that was the
> > > first Q baby to be born ever, then how could this one have parents?
> > > Authors don't exactly spend too much effort coordinating what they say
> > > about the specific details, they're writing for the character plot.
> >
> > Here you are ignoring the fact that SW books are official, and have
> > remarkably few inconsistencies, while ST books are not considered at
> > all, and are full of so many inconsistencies as to be useless in these
> > sorts of debates.
>
> Remarkably few, still has them, which means they are not actually
> realistic, just carefully thought out.
What? Are you saying that glaring discrepancies are "carefully thought out"?
LOL!
> > > And for this base of operations that would be setup in the galaxy,
where
> > > would this be? The Delta Quadrant with the Borg? The Gamma Quadrant
> > > with the Dominion? The Beta Quadrant with the Romulans and Klingons?
> > > I doubt the Empire, even with hyperspace technology, is able to cross
> > > the galactic barrier.
> >
> > Find a single planet in the farthest outer reaches of the galaxy, and
> > build your base there. Since it would takes decades for the Federation
> > to reach their base, it's safe enough.
>
> What about the other major powers? Anywhere in the galaxy is within
> reach of one or the other major powers. And the Borg with their
> transwarp technology should be able to assimilate the hyperspace
> technology.
Ok, then tell me how they will do just that. Especially when hyperspace
vessels can jump out of hyperspace to make quick course changes to throw off
pursuit. The hyperspace vessels could go any way they pleased, with some
confused Borg left behind.
> > > > Where is S31 going to collect this info from? The Ferengi would be
> > > > happy to sell the Imps info. There is no one to sell the Feds info.
> > > > Also, if you want a fair debate, then you are in the wrong argument.
> > > > The Imps so ridiculously overpower anything the entire galaxy can
throw
> > > > at them that it is impossible for the battles to be _fair_.
> > >
> > > Hence the pointlessness in discussing it. Also, the 2 universes seem
to
> > > use different ideas of science anyway. SW ships is suppose to travel
> > > through hyperspace (subspace, later renamed).
> >
> > No, subspace is _not_ hyperspace in SW. The two are clearly different,
> > as outlined in Han Solo and the Lost Legacy.
>
> Well current theories about hyperspace is that it's what use to be
> called subspace.
Your "current theories" are ancient theories. Hyperspace is NOT subspace,
period. I have no idea what universe you came from.
> > > In the ST universe,
> > > subspace is a region in which gravimetric disturbances and eddies make
> > > it impossible to navigate. Also, would those turbolasers on a Star
> > > Destroyer even affect planetary shields? Or even ships with shields?
>
> > Of course they would, unless of course you are going to claim immunity
> > to turbolasers simply because of their name.
>
> How do you know they would affect it? We've never actually seen what
> they would do against spacial distortions, all we've seen is it blast a
> black spot on the side of a ship, which, by the way, didn't seem all
> that powerful at all.
You see black spots in Trek, not Wars. In Wars, the part of the ship that is
hit disentigrates. Remember, nerfhead?
> > > They seem to me like pumped-up versions of hand-blasters. And those
> > > don't seem very powerful at all. How would deflectors on a Star
> > > Destroyer match against photon torpedoes? We don't know.
> >
> > We don't know for certain, but we can figure it out from the known
> > information, or have you forgotten the entire purpose of this group. An
> > SD can withstand it's own firepower for at least half an hour, so it
> > would take thousands of photorps to even make a noticeable dent in the
> > shields.
>
> How do you know what a photon torpedoe's firingpower is compared to a
> turbolaser? From what I've seen of the turbolasers they're not that
> powerful at all.
Something which can disentigrate asteroids that could wipe out the American
continent is pretty damn powerful. In case you have no idea what I'm talking
about, I'm referring to TESB, the asteroid field scene.
Come on, give me a break and go back to spacebattles.com. Jeez, it's like
arguing with Paul Jacques or Elim Garak!
--
http://crayz9000.port5.com
Remove SOCKS when replying by E-mail.
I'd love to see you naked.
I'll drink to that.
--Microsoft Word
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Crayz9000
"John Kang" <god...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:39728E1F...@prodigy.net...
> Steven Hawking recently published a newsletter I managed to get a look
> at outlining the theoretical properties of hyperspace. Also, if you
> want to go Sci Fi reference, it was explaned in Lost in Space.
DO NOT bring up Lost in Space. They BLATANTLY ripped off Star Wars. As for
Steven Hawking's newsletter, which one?
> > > > > And we do know that the Feds have ways of altering subspace.
> > > >
> > > > And we do know that in Star Wars use of subspace is considered
> > > > primitive.
> > >
> > > Not really, all communications in Star Wars is subspace. Or so they
say.
> >
> > No, all communications were done in subspace 25,000 years ago in the SW
> > galaxy, before the rise of the old republic.
>
> In the one of the SW books I've read, an incomming transmission to
> Corescant to Princess Leia was transmitted in subspace. There were
> subspace tranceivers used.
But that doesn't rule out hyperspace comms. Look at the HoloNet.
Crayz9000
"Durandal" <durandal6...@mac.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:0690755d...@usw-ex0105-035.remarq.com...
> Yeah, I'm on a Mac. I have this forum in my Usenet subscription,
> but I
> don't get nearly all the threads through it, for some reason. I
> get a lot of
> messages by Crazy9000...
Sorry if I'm annoying. I was trying to write a fanfic, and I posted two
drafts (3 chapters, two times, plus several queries). I'm almost finished
re-writing the first chapter, though. As for the not getting all messages,
RemarQ has some eccentricities. Try a regular newsgroup (see
http://www.newzbot.com)
> Nothing more than that, though.
Jonathan Willis
> Step 3 is a demonstration of power. After waiting for the
> federation's reply, we send a single imperial vessal (an ISD will work
> fine) to attack. We calculate 2 hyperspace jumps (one going to
> target, one leaving target). We also, of course, determine what our
> alignment with the target will be, and train our guns to hit said
> target before we jump (simple geometry). The target will be a
> starfleet instillation. What we shall do next is to syncronize
> everything. End result will be the ISD jumps in, fires emediately,
> and jumps out. Total time in system is less then 2 seconds. This is
> not enough time for a starfleet vessel to locate, target, fire, and
> hit for effect before we are gone.
Setp 3 is flawed because it is highly unlikely the Empire can do this.
Ships come out of hyperspace around 6 diameters away from a planet
(around 70,000 km for Earth) and there is no evidence that ISDs have
anywhere near this sort of weapons range. The best ranges we have seen
them use is the initial stages of the battle of Endor, which was several
hundred kilometers and seemed to be indecisive compared with short range
fire.
> Step 6 we send in a civilian transport. It does the hyperspacejump in
Spyda
>
> Spyda wrote:
> >
> > Graeme Dice wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > 3: As far as the Federation citizens are concerned, it's the word of some
> > > > pesky aliens vs the word of the first government in mankind's history to
> > > > provide utopia.
> > >
> > > Communist/socialist government that represses its citizens.
> >
> > I can't believe I'm still hearing this "The Federation is evil" bullshit. The
> > citizens of the Federation are happy, they all get along, and that's a canon
> > fact.
>
> That has nothing to do with whether the government is communist or not,
> or if it represses its citizens. There were people who were happy in
> Communist Russia you realize, and they were most likely to have
> positions of power such as captains of ships. Also note that these
> high-ranking officers of are the only people we ever really see do
> anything.
Am I talking to an American? The Federation may well be communist, it doesn't
matter. The only thing that does matter is that the people aren't
complaining, so as per the ORIGINAL point; The citizens aren't going to take
the word of some Aliens trying to coax them into a new way of life over the
people that have given them Utopia.
> >
> > > >
> > > > 4: There is nothing canon confirming that a Star Destroyer can jump in and
> > > > out in 2 seconds and still attack a target effectively.
> > >
> > > There is one book where they do just that.
> >
> > They could have done it to the rebel base on Hoth but didn't.
>
> They _did_ do it to freighters in a book. The rebels on Hoth had a
> planetary shield in case you forgot that.
The rebels only put them up when Ozzel's ship came out of hyperspace in the
system.
> >
> > > >
> > > > 5: This is completely disreguarding the fact that there's more than just the
> > > > Federation to deal with.
> > >
> > > Not in this scenario there isn't. Note, that it is simply Imps versus
> > > Feds.
> >
> > Still wouldn't happen.
>
> Why not? The Romulans would most likely join in on the Imperials side,
> and the Klingons could be dealt with at the same time. The Dominion are
> stuck behind a wormhole, and most other powers in the Alpha quadrant are
> too small to be a threat.
Proof? Figures?
> >
> > > >
> > > > 6: This scenario is biased towards the Empire as it relies on the Imperials
> > > > having prior knowledge of Federation tactics etc, while the Federation
> > > > appears to have no information on the Empire whatsoever.
> > >
> > > Information can be bought, if you have the price.
> >
> > It's still a biased scenario. Section 31 could just as easily have been
> > collecting information on the Empire. You can't have a fair VS debate when
> > you assume one side has been preparing and the other hasn't.
>
> Where is S31 going to collect this info from? The Ferengi would be
> happy to sell the Imps info. There is no one to sell the Feds info.
> Also, if you want a fair debate, then you are in the wrong argument.
> The Imps so ridiculously overpower anything the entire galaxy can throw
> at them that it is impossible for the battles to be _fair_.
The Ferengi didn't sell the Dominion the info, they didn't sell the Romulans
any info, the never sold any information about the Federation to anybody that
was against it.
Look at this from another angle. This scenario is like Predator VS Dutch.
Only the Predator has spent twenty four hours preparing for battle and Dutch
has just rolled out of bed.
This scenario is assuming that the Empire knows that the Federation exists
while the Federation knows nothing. It's biased.
> Graeme Dice
> --
> Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an
> hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a
> minute.
> That's relativity.
> -- Albert Einstein
--
_ _ _ _
\\ \\ // // Alone in the darkness...
\\ || || //
_ \\ \\ // //
|________________________\\ \\_// //_____________________________
| ____________________ \\/ \// ____________________________/
|ICQ#: 39921647 /_\ /_\ http://www.nano.dk/~spyda /
|_______________________// | | \\_________________________/
_| // /| |\ \\
Not the only current // //| |\\ \\
regular of AGRSQ // // \___/ \\ \\
// \\
Jonathan Boyd
durandal6...@mac.com.invalid:
> Boyd: This is plain text format, if I'm not mistaken. How do I
> get italics?
Actually, I just though, you could do italics using HTML posting. But we'd
have to kill you then. It's one of the few issues Kynes and I will stand
together on.
You can represent italics in plain text like this:
Normal text is like this, but italics text is like _this_ and bold text is
like *this*.
Hope that helps.
--
Jonathan
AIM: BoydClone | STvsSW website: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/index.html
This message transmitted on 100% recycled electrons.
Jonathan Boyd
durandal6...@mac.com.invalid:
> Boyd: This is plain text format, if I'm not mistaken. How do I
> get italics?
You can't. What I meant was that most people on Usenet quote messages like
this:
**
----
> The next someone is replying to would be on lines beginning with a '>'
The new text being added would just be typed normally.
----
**
You seem to do it differently, a bit like the way the SBers do it.
Out of curiosity, how are you reading the group? I'm guessing that you have
a Mac since your address is an @mac.com, so why don't you try using a
standard program like Outlook Express or Netscape Communicator? They'll
quote messages being replied to in the way everyone else (with the exception
of Paul Jaques who, being a frog, uses colons) does.
--
Jonathan
AIM: BoydClone | STvsSW website: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/index.html
"The third is an enigma. Some say he can be turned, that he does not
believe in what he fights for. Some say he is an idiot. Some say he
is mad. All we know is that his ancestral memories caused him to write
the heart-rending accountings of The Good Old Days, times he was not
alive to see (and those that were would like to forget)." - Liet Kynes
tran...@cybertown.com
Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
> This scenario is assuming that the Empire knows that the Federation
exists
> while the Federation knows nothing. It's biased.
>
It's also realistic.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
tran...@cybertown.com
John Kang <god...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> Durandal wrote:
> >
> > John Kang:
> > [Ok, I keep hearing they did it in a book. Guess what, books are
> > inconsistent. We've never seen it done in the movies or even
> > spoken of,
> > series and
> > movies in which stuff could be derived, most of the books
> > written,
> > however, can be very inconsistent. For example, in the book
> > Q-Squared,
> > a young Q supposedly had parents. Well, if in Voyager, that was
> > the first
> > Q baby to be born ever, then how could this one have parents?
> > Authors
> > about
> > the specific details, they're writing for the character plot.]
> > ---
> > Guess what? The novels are an official part of the SW Universe.
> > All the
> > events that happened in the novels happened in the SW Universe.
> > They
> > can be used as a source of information unless DIRECTLY
> > contradicted by
> > the ultimate canon (the movies).
> > Trek novels are NOT official. They do NOT undergo the same
> > consistency
> > tests that SW novels do.
> > Both of these are Lucasfilm, Ltd. and Paramount Pictures policy,
> > respectively.
>
> being in one book but never existed in the timeline of another. Ships
> needing hyperspace jump points to be located by another ship before in
> one book, and then able to jump in anywhere in the other. Ships
taking
> minutes to make the jump to light speed while in the books they are
said
> to only take seconds.
>
Just because a character is not in the movies does not mean they cannot
introduce one in a book. That is not an inconsistancy. Also a single
specialized tactic using interdiction ships by Grand Admiral Thrawn
does not invalidate ANY known official sources I have read. Also the
hyperspace calculation time can VARY, based on where you are and where
you are going.
> > [And for this base of operations that would be setup in the
> > galaxy,
> > where would this be? The Delta Quadrant with the Borg? The Gamma
> > Quadrant with the Dominion? The Beta Quadrant with the Romulans
> > and
> > Klingons? I doubt the Empire, even with hyperspace technology,
> > is able
> > to cross the galactic barrier.]
> > ---
> > Wormhole. They can set up a base of operations literally
> > ANYWHERE they
> > want in the ST Galaxy. It can be in a little, remote sector,
> > far, FAR away
> > from any major powers' control. Hyperspace gives them this
> > advantage.
> > Even if any superpowers found out where they were hiding, it
> > would
> > take them years to reach the place with their slow warp drives.
>
> The Borg cover the Delta Quadrant, the Dominion covers the Gamma
> Quadrant, the Klingons/Romulans covers the Beta Quadrant and the
> Federation covers the Alpha Quadrant, where would they go that'll be
far
> away from any major power?
The Borg do NOT cover all of the Delta Quadrant, need proof? Voyager
traveled for quite some time before running into the borg. Klingons and
Romulans controlling ALL of the Beta Quadrant? Hmmmm, the Federation
starship Voyager contacted a Romulan vessel, INSIDE the alpha quadrant
(not beta) that also happened to be in Romulan space. The Romulans
therefore control at least PART of the Alpha Quadrant which proves that
the Federation does not rule the entire Alpha Quadrant. If they did
then WTF is all this unexplored space they kept going to anyway? The
Klingons and Romulans also do not cover the whole of the beta quadrant
by similar arguments. To put it mildly to say that each of these powers
controls 1/4 of the entire galaxy is a sign of your insanity or
ignorance (you may pick which). None of these powers are in anyway NEAR
that large, same goes for the Dominion in the Gamma Quadrant.
>
> > [Hence the pointlessness in discussing it. Also, the 2 universes
> > seem to
> > use different ideas of science anyway. SW ships is suppose to
> > travel
> > through hyperspace (subspace, later renamed). In the ST universe,
> > subspace is a region in which gravimetric disturbances and eddies
> > make it impossible to navigate. Also, would those turbolasers on
> > a Star
> > Destroyer even affect planetary shields? Or even ships with
> > shields?
> > They seem to me like pumped-up versions of hand-blasters. And
> > those
> > don't seem very powerful at all. How would deflectors on a Star
> > Destroyer match against photon torpedoes? We don't know.]
> > ---
> > Hyperspace is not subspace. "Hyper" means "above." "Sub" means
> > "below."
> > We don't KNOW, but we can make educated guesses, based on
> > observed
> > evidence from both of the series. It doesn't matter if
> > Turbolasers would
> > affect planetary shields, since there is no evidence that Trek
> > has them
> > (Wars does, BTW).
>
> The term "hyperspace" is incorrectly stated. I don't know why they
> changed it, but if you do read up on theories about it, hyperspace IS
a
> region below normal space.
> Trek manuals says there are planetary shields.
Wrong on both counts. Hyperspace has none of the characteristics of
subspace, BOTH of with are use in the SW universe, where they are
stated to be seperate things. And Star Trek has NEVER had ANY full
planetary shields (no, simple "anti-transporter" shields don't count, I
mean something capable of shielding against a weapon, and over a whole
planetary surface as shown in SW). I don't know what "manual" you claim
has this in it, in fact I'd say you are lying, mistaken, or
hallucinating.
What clueless newbie factory did you walk out of?
Jonathan Willis
> > Setp 3 is flawed because it is highly unlikely the Empire can do this.
> > Ships come out of hyperspace around 6 diameters away from a planet
> > (around 70,000 km for Earth) and there is no evidence that ISDs have
> > anywhere near this sort of weapons range. The best ranges we have seen
> > them use is the initial stages of the battle of Endor, which was several
> > hundred kilometers and seemed to be indecisive compared with short range
> > fire.
>
> They can hit planets at that range, which is all that is needed to
> destroy any enemy without planetary shields.
Proof? We know the DS can hit a target at that range, but this is hardly
a typical example, and it needs the longer range for its own safety. A
planet may be a signficantly larger target than even a SW starship, but
SW ships have never shown great accuracy. Even a very minor deviation in
the path of a turbolaser would be sufficient to miss a planet. And this
is also assuming the blast has the killing power to cover this distance;
it could spread sufficiently to be useless, or explode into blast flak
at some maximum range.
Chris O'Farrell
Graeme Dice
>
> Graeme Dice wrote:
> >
<snip>
> > Where is your info that you get this from?
>
> Steven Hawking recently published a newsletter I managed to get a look
> at outlining the theoretical properties of hyperspace. Also, if you
> want to go Sci Fi reference, it was explaned in Lost in Space.
This is not "Lost in Space", this is Star Wars, and in Han Solo and the
lost legacy and many other books, we find that SW uses subspace for
short range (~100 light-year) communication. This is considered
different than hyperspace in the SW universe.
> > No, all communications were done in subspace 25,000 years ago in the SW
> > galaxy, before the rise of the old republic.
>
> In the one of the SW books I've read, an incomming transmission to
> Corescant to Princess Leia was transmitted in subspace. There were
> subspace tranceivers used.
Exactly, it would have been a short range communication, unlike the
hypercomms which are instantaneous across the galaxy.
Graeme Dice
--
If it can't be expressed in figures it not science. It is opinion.
-- from "the notebook of Lazarus Long"
Graeme Dice
>
> Graeme Dice wrote:
>
<snip>
> >
> > They can hit planets at that range, which is all that is needed to
> > destroy any enemy without planetary shields.
>
> Proof? We know the DS can hit a target at that range, but this is hardly
> a typical example, and it needs the longer range for its own safety. A
> planet may be a signficantly larger target than even a SW starship, but
> SW ships have never shown great accuracy. Even a very minor deviation in
> the path of a turbolaser would be sufficient to miss a planet. And this
> is also assuming the blast has the killing power to cover this distance;
> it could spread sufficiently to be useless, or explode into blast flak
> at some maximum range.
Are you claiming that they would miss a planet, when they can hit the MF
almost all of the time at close range? We also know that the range of a
TL is 75% of the max range of the DS superlaser.
SyG
<ja...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>SyG wrote:
>
>> Step 3 is a demonstration of power. After waiting for the
>> federation's reply, we send a single imperial vessal (an ISD will work
>> fine) to attack. We calculate 2 hyperspace jumps (one going to
>> target, one leaving target). We also, of course, determine what our
>> alignment with the target will be, and train our guns to hit said
>> target before we jump (simple geometry). The target will be a
>> starfleet instillation. What we shall do next is to syncronize
>> everything. End result will be the ISD jumps in, fires emediately,
>> and jumps out. Total time in system is less then 2 seconds. This is
>> not enough time for a starfleet vessel to locate, target, fire, and
>> hit for effect before we are gone.
>
>Setp 3 is flawed because it is highly unlikely the Empire can do this.
>Ships come out of hyperspace around 6 diameters away from a planet
>(around 70,000 km for Earth) and there is no evidence that ISDs have
>anywhere near this sort of weapons range. The best ranges we have seen
>them use is the initial stages of the battle of Endor, which was several
>hundred kilometers and seemed to be indecisive compared with short range
>fire.
>
Yet we have an official, uncrontadicted example of the Falcon jumping
to hyperspace while INSIDE of the atmosphere of the planet Byss. If
that is possible, it's a logical assumption that the reverse is also
possible, and there is nothing official or cannon to contradict that.
The bigest problem, however, is the precision needed in the timing.
That's why computer controll is used and the calculations are made
beforehand, so that there is enough time to get everything right.
>> Step 6 we send in a civilian transport. It does the hyperspacejump in
>> just like the ISD did in the previous ones, but does not jump out
>> right away. We stick around until Starfleet attacks it.
>
>Second flaw, Starfleet wouldn't attack. Even during the Dominion War
>they didn't start attacking unarmed ships on sight.
Was the Tantive IV unarmed? No. It was not a warship, but it was not
unarmed. Were liberty ships in WWII unarmed? No, they were
freighters, but they normaly carried a small deck gun and some AA.
The federation will see a ship jumping in from hyperspace, notice it
has a few weapons, think about the previous attacks (where there
wasn't even time to get an accurate look at the attacking vessel),
realize that they are at war and this is an enemy vessel in THEIR
space, and draw the conclusion required.
Jonathan Willis
> > > They can hit planets at that range, which is all that is needed to
> > > destroy any enemy without planetary shields.
> >
> > Proof? We know the DS can hit a target at that range, but this is hardly
> > a typical example, and it needs the longer range for its own safety. A
> > planet may be a signficantly larger target than even a SW starship, but
> > SW ships have never shown great accuracy. Even a very minor deviation in
> > the path of a turbolaser would be sufficient to miss a planet. And this
> > is also assuming the blast has the killing power to cover this distance;
> > it could spread sufficiently to be useless, or explode into blast flak
> > at some maximum range.
>
> Are you claiming that they would miss a planet, when they can hit the MF
> almost all of the time at close range?
<sigh> I get the feeling we have had this discussion before.
They can't hit the MF nearly all the time at close range. In TESB they
fired dozens of shots and only scored one clean hit, plus various
bursts. Executor missed a Nebulon-B at a range of only a few hundred
meters; the angular size of the target in this case was far larger than
that of a planet at thousands of km.
The mere survival of the MF argues that this is true. When being chased
from the DS by TIEs it suffered a few dozens hits and was moderately
damaged. TIE lasers are similar to X-Wings, so minimum 60 GJ, perhaps as
much as a few TJ. ISD TLs are minimum thousands of TJ, so a single hit
should inflict as much damage as all that TIE fire combined. In TESB
strikes back the MF was moderately damaged by the ISDs fire, and this is
strong evidence for my interpretation. If it had been hit many times as
you claim it would have been completely vaporised.
> We also know that the range of a
> TL is 75% of the max range of the DS superlaser.
How do we know this? The relative power of the two weapons (SL being at
least 1e9 times more powerful than a TL) means this statement makes a SL
extremely short ranged by comparison.
Spyda
>
> In article <39722435...@spacemoose.com>,
> Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> >
> > This scenario is assuming that the Empire knows that the Federation
> exists
> > while the Federation knows nothing. It's biased.
> >
> <snip>
>
> It's also realistic.
Proof?
tran...@cybertown.com
"Crayz9000" <cray...@SOCKS.mailandnews.com> wrote:
<snip>
>
> Come on, give me a break and go back to spacebattles.com. Jeez, it's
like
> arguing with Paul Jacques or Elim Garak!
Actually worse, Elim and Paul can almost look like they are making
sense sometimes, until you actually examine their arguments. This guy
is straight out of the newbie factory or a spacebattles.com fanatic, or
both.
tran...@cybertown.com
John Kang <god...@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> SyG wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:49:18 +1200, Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com>
> > wrote:
> >
the Imperials
> > >> > having prior knowledge of Federation tactics etc, while the
Federation
> > >> > appears to have no information on the Empire whatsoever.
> > >>
> > >> Information can be bought, if you have the price.
> > >
> > >It's still a biased scenario. Section 31 could just as easily have
been
> > >collecting information on the Empire. You can't have a fair VS
debate when
> > >you assume one side has been preparing and the other hasn't.
> >
> >
> > First off, I assumed NO advanced knowledge of tactics and abiliteis
on
> > ether side. The hit and run stratigy outlined would be usefull
> > against any oponenet because of the breif time spent in system is
not
> > long enough for effective firing against the attacker. The speed of
> > hyperspace, in and off it's self, make the tactic that much better,
> > since by the time the defenders could react, the attacker would be
far
> > away.
> >
> > As for section 31 having information on the empire.... just how did
it
> > get to the SW galaxy? With the speeds of the ST and SW FTL drives,
> > it's all but impossible for ST to get to the SW galaxy, but only a
> > relitivly minor problem for SW to get to the ST galaxay. That is
> > assuming, of course, that the galaxies are in teh same cluster (or
> > supercluster).
>
> Falcon (very fast ship) to travel from the one sector to the
neigboring,
> Now, considering that the space between galaxies is hundreds of
millions
> of light years, it would mean it'd take them about 1000 years to reach
> the ST galaxy, then there's the problem of crossing the galactic
> barrier, which is just downright impossible.
>
<sarcasm>Yes yes I am sure that Alderaan, a system near the galactic
core, and Tattooine, a system near the edge of the galaxy, are one
sector apart. </sarcasm>
Now take your medication now and go back into that nice padded room of
yours.
tran...@cybertown.com
Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
> tran...@cybertown.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <39722435...@spacemoose.com>,
> > Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > This scenario is assuming that the Empire knows that the
Federation
> > exists
> > > while the Federation knows nothing. It's biased.
> > >
> > <snip>
> >
> > It's also realistic.
>
> Proof?
Imperial Probe Droids, stealthed Imperial scout ships, need I REALLY go
on? Meanwhile, with the slow speeds of Federation and other ST
governments starships they could search for YEARS and not find the
Imperial base, or the wormhole assuming there even is one.
Matthew Hyde
> John Kang wrote:
> > by this, I assume it can cross the galaxy within a matter of months.
> > Now, considering that the space between galaxies is hundreds of millions
> > of light years, it would mean it'd take them about 1000 years to reach
> > the ST galaxy, then there's the problem of crossing the galactic
> > barrier, which is just downright impossible.
> Darth Maul crossed HALF A GALAXY in TWELVE HOURS!
Somebody please define "galactic barrier"
*looking pointedly at Edam who might actually make sense*
--
Matt Hyde
Math Lab Consultant
Who is Matt Hyde? http://www.mathlab.mtu.edu/~mdoughy
Matthew Hyde
> <snip>
> > >
> > > They can hit planets at that range, which is all that is needed to
> > > destroy any enemy without planetary shields.
> >
> > Proof? We know the DS can hit a target at that range, but this is hardly
> > a typical example, and it needs the longer range for its own safety. A
> > planet may be a signficantly larger target than even a SW starship, but
> > SW ships have never shown great accuracy. Even a very minor deviation in
> > the path of a turbolaser would be sufficient to miss a planet. And this
> > is also assuming the blast has the killing power to cover this distance;
> > it could spread sufficiently to be useless, or explode into blast flak
> > at some maximum range.
> Are you claiming that they would miss a planet, when they can hit the MF
> almost all of the time at close range? We also know that the range of a
> TL is 75% of the max range of the DS superlaser.
Even the government can hit the Earth 100 % of the time
Matthew Hyde
> **** Post for FREE via your newsreader at post.usenet.com ****
> John Kang sought to enlighten the world with this:
> {real big snip}
>
> >the ST galaxy, then there's the problem of crossing the
> >galactic barrier, which is just downright impossible.
> You'll have to back up there John and slow down a bit,
> this crowd on the "other" side refuses to concede to any
> of the Old Show evidence as I have tried.
> You may want to catch my other posts stored at deja
> to see why and starting with this one they'll be no
> more storing of my posts over there any more.
> Except for Dalton, whom I've told, I bet this crowd
> doesn't even know where I got my nom de plume from
> because they're basically all too young.
I bet they weren't ready for that :)
Matthew Hyde
John Kang <god...@prodigy.net> wrote:
> > Even a repressive government can give its citizens some rights.
> By your logic, the US would also be considered a repressive government.
Wow, *that's* farfetched :}
Matthew Hyde
> In article <39728D7B...@prodigy.net>,
> Now take your medication now and go back into that nice padded room of
> yours.
STRAP ME DOWN! SHOOT ME UP! STRAP ME DOWN! SHOOT ME UP! STRAP ME DOWN!
SHOOT ME UP! STRAP ME DOWN! SHOOT ME UP! STRAP ME DOWN! SHOOT ME UP!
Matthew Hyde
> Jonathan Boyd wrote:
> >
> > Our spies intercepted the following article from Durandal at
> > durandal6...@mac.com.invalid:
> >
> > > Boyd: This is plain text format, if I'm not mistaken. How do I
> > > get italics?
> >
> > You can't. What I meant was that most people on Usenet quote messages like
> > this:
> >
> > **
> > ----
> > > The next someone is replying to would be on lines beginning with a '>'
> >
> > The new text being added would just be typed normally.
> > ----
> > **
> >
> > You seem to do it differently, a bit like the way the SBers do it.
> >
> > Out of curiosity, how are you reading the group? I'm guessing that you have
> > a Mac since your address is an @mac.com, so why don't you try using a
> > standard program like Outlook Express or Netscape Communicator? They'll
> > quote messages being replied to in the way everyone else (with the exception
> > of Paul Jaques who, being a frog, uses colons) does.
> Paul Jacques reads this group with TIN. ROFL
Hey!
tran...@cybertown.com
Matthew Hyde <mdo...@mtu.edu> wrote:
> Dalton <dalto...@nospam.erols.com> wrote:
> > John Kang wrote:
>
> > > by this, I assume it can cross the galaxy within a matter of
months.
> > > Now, considering that the space between galaxies is hundreds of
millions
> > > of light years, it would mean it'd take them about 1000 years to
reach
> > > barrier, which is just downright impossible.
>
>
> Somebody please define "galactic barrier"
>
> *looking pointedly at Edam who might actually make sense*
Well there is this energy barrier at the edge of the galaxy, supposedly
it is impossible to get through. Interesting enough the ORIGINAL
Enterprise, no bloody A, B, C, OR D, crossed through this barrier at
least 2 times. So much for being impossible.
Lord Sander
news:397289EA...@prodigy.net...
> The Borg cover the Delta Quadrant, the Dominion covers the Gamma
> Quadrant, the Klingons/Romulans covers the Beta Quadrant and the
> Federation covers the Alpha Quadrant, where would they go that'll be far
> away from any major power?
Please go read this site
http://www.stdimension.de/int/Cartography/index.htm, and especially take a
good look at this image:
http://www.stdimension.de/Cartography/Source/chart212e.jpg. I think you'll
find it well-researched and definately disproves any (laughable, really)
suggestions of these immense sizes you're making for the Milky Way's major
powers..
Lord Sander,
http://promotion.simplenet.com/
Glory to the Empire and Emperor Palpatine!
Lord Sander
that dominates the threads seems a bit strange to me, considering the scale
of things. Is the Empire really gonna be concerned with a 'power' THAT
small, which has extremely slow propulsion and really holds little that
would interrest them? It seems to me they'd just overrun it along with all
the other tiny 'powers' in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, and save the
strategical stuff for powers like the Borg and Dominion, who can give some
resistance. After all, the Federation might be considered important in ST
because it's where Earth is etc., but to the Empire, it's just another pesky
little collection of aliens like all the others across the galaxy.
(I hope that didn't just sound incredibly biased and trolling.. heh)
Crayz9000
"Space Cowboy" <space...@HephestusStation.com> wrote in message
news:8F7435E7DHep...@208.33.61.59...
> Crayz9000 sought to enlighten the world with this:
>
> >DO NOT bring up Lost in Space. They BLATANTLY ripped off Star
> >Wars. As for Steven Hawking's newsletter, which one?
> >
> Oh Fuck Off!
I take it that you never saw the movie. It only had the main plot in common
with the original LSS- most of the technology was changed. Did you take a
look at the (I forgot its name, but it began with a P) ship with the
crab-aliens? May I remind you that that ship looks like a SW ship, and that
the aliens were borrowed from "Aliens"?
> Is 'Crayz' an anagram for Crazy?
Not quite. You see, I was going to use Cray9000 until I found out that
someone else was using it. So I tacked a z on the end of it.
> This is as bad as Dalton's page I once saw, every fucking element in your
> beloved SW is a rip-off of everything that came
> before it and hyperspace theory goes way back to the 1940s or
> even earlier including landspeeders, speeder bikes [see reruns
> of Fireball XL5 & Stingray] and I bet if I look hard enough
> into past sci-fi I'll probably find a lightsabre-type device.
Well true. Lucas got the some ideas from 2001: A Space Oddessy. No, DUH! He
also got some ideas from Nazi Germany: the Empire, its stormtroopers, etc.
But borrowing hyperspace theory from physics, well, what's the problem with
that? Trek, on the other hand, borrowed just about all the theories and made
a mess. One of the main features of MOST sci-fi is that they have
anti-gravity vehicles. Lucas and his designers spend a lot of time just
thinking out ship designs, instead of watching other sci-fi and copying. He
also came up with the idea of a 25,000 year old galaxy-spanning
civilization.
The lightsaber was borrowed from fantasy (a la J.R.R. Tolkien, or the
Knights of the Round Table). The Jedi "Knights". Need I say more? My point
is that Lucas had the idea to re-arrange and rename things, and throw in
many ideas of his own, unlike most of the other sci-fi of the time. He threw
in some stunning special effects, and the result is that SW is the No.1 (I
think).
OTOH, look at Battlestar Galactica. They just made a collective rip-off of
most sci-fi. They borrowed ship styles from SW, they borrowed the plot from
LIS, tehy borrowed Basestars (flying saucers) from 50's sci-fi, they
borrowed Cylons (shiny evil robots) from 50's sci-fi. At least they didn't
use the old "aliens invade Earth" theme. ST:Voyager is another rip-off of
Lost in Space. And it doesn't even have Dr. Smith to make it funny! NBC's
show, "V" is another example. You've got the aliens invade Earth theme,
flying saucers, boring special effects, plastic ships, and the list goes on
and on. Their shuttles look vaguely resemblent of ST shuttles. In ST, if you
look at pictures of Daedelus-class ships, does anyone notice that they look
like the Discovery from 2001? And yet another thing: teleportation is not a
new idea. It's in several older sci-fi books. ST ships are flying saucers on
stilts. Has anyone noticed how all aliens in ST, with the exception of the
Dominion, look similar? Vulcans: humans with pointy ears. Romulans:
generally look Chinese. Klingons: dark humans with ridges on their skulls.
Ferengi: very ugly humanoid pygmies. Episodes routinely defy logic. Captains
fly through solar flares, go into known dangerous regions of space, beam
down with away crews, and the list goes on and on.
Fuck off yourself!
--
http://crayz9000.port5.com
Remove SOCKS when replying by E-mail.
I'd love to see you naked.
I'll drink to that.
--Microsoft Word
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*** Usenet.com - The #1 Usenet Newsgroup Service on The Planet! ***
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Cyborg Stan of CyKoLaJx, Inc.
wrote:
>tran...@cybertown.com wrote:
>>
>> In article <39722435...@spacemoose.com>,
>> Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
>> <snip>
>> >
>> > This scenario is assuming that the Empire knows that the Federation
>> exists
>> > while the Federation knows nothing. It's biased.
>> >
>> <snip>
>>
>> It's also realistic.
>
>Proof?
He's probably thinking of the difference between warp and hyperdrive
speeds. If the Empire scouted out the Federation beforehand, the
Federation might know of some odd ships in the terrority, but probably
would not know the Empire's war machinery at all.
Outlyer Base at
http://www.ipass.net/~bdiller/
email : bdi...@ipass.net
ICQ - 32779556
Matthew Hyde
Yah it do... EMH!
Lord Edam de Fromage
happened to him?" "umm, take a look at this message from Jonathan
Boyd..it gave him a heart attack"
> > Boyd: This is plain text format, if I'm not mistaken. How do I
> > get italics?
>
> Actually, I just though, you could do italics using HTML posting. But we'd
> have to kill you then. It's one of the few issues Kynes and I will stand
> together on.
>
> You can represent italics in plain text like this:
>
> Normal text is like this, but italics text is like _this_ and bold text is
> like *this*.
Nononono
normal text is like this, but italic text is like /this/ whilst bold text
is like *this* and underlined text is like _this_, so when you get some
stupid fucker who can't quote properly and posts in HTML you show him
you're really pissed off by shouting in bold underlined italicised text
*_/LIKE THIS/_*. Failing that you spend half and hour drawing a three
page ascii art FUCKER that can only be read by turning your screen on its
side and scrolling.
--
Lord Edam de Fromage
AIM:Sorborus
WEB:www.trek-wars.co.uk
They had a system there pretty close to ours - but it had only 7 stars
and one gas giant -- Elim Garak
Jonathan Boyd
michael....@physics.org:
> Two medics rushed into the room pulling the crash cart. "My god what
> happened to him?" "umm, take a look at this message from Jonathan
> Boyd..it gave him a heart attack"
>
>>> Boyd: This is plain text format, if I'm not mistaken. How do I
>>> get italics?
>>
>> Actually, I just though, you could do italics using HTML posting. But we'd
>> have to kill you then. It's one of the few issues Kynes and I will stand
>> together on.
>>
>> You can represent italics in plain text like this:
>>
>> Normal text is like this, but italics text is like _this_ and bold text is
>> like *this*.
>
> Nononono
>
> normal text is like this, but italic text is like /this/ whilst bold text
> is like *this* and underlined text is like _this_, so when you get some
> stupid fucker who can't quote properly and posts in HTML you show him
> you're really pissed off by shouting in bold underlined italicised text
> *_/LIKE THIS/_*. Failing that you spend half and hour drawing a three
> page ascii art FUCKER that can only be read by turning your screen on its
> side and scrolling.
No, no, on, no, no! Italics _are_ like _this_ That's why ship names in
fanfics are like this: _Enterprise_. You put ship names in italics, not
underlined. same with thoughts.
--
Jonathan
AIM: BoydClone | STvsSW website: http://www.jboyd.co.uk/index.html
Your eyes are weary from staring at the CRT. You feel sleepy. Notice how
restful it is to watch the cursor blink. Close your eyes. The opinions
stated above are yours. You cannot imagine why you ever felt otherwise.
Brad Moon
Lord Edam de Fromage wrote:
> Two medics rushed into the room pulling the crash cart. "My god what
> happened to him?" "umm, take a look at this message from Jonathan
> Boyd..it gave him a heart attack"
>
> > > Boyd: This is plain text format, if I'm not mistaken. How do I
> > > get italics?
> >
> > Actually, I just though, you could do italics using HTML posting. But we'd
> > have to kill you then. It's one of the few issues Kynes and I will stand
> > together on.
> >
> > You can represent italics in plain text like this:
> >
> > Normal text is like this, but italics text is like _this_ and bold text is
> > like *this*.
>
> Nononono
>
> normal text is like this, but italic text is like /this/ whilst bold text
> is like *this* and underlined text is like _this_, so when you get some
> stupid fucker who can't quote properly and posts in HTML you show him
> you're really pissed off by shouting in bold underlined italicised text
> *_/LIKE THIS/_*. Failing that you spend half and hour drawing a three
> page ascii art FUCKER that can only be read by turning your screen on its
> side and scrolling.
>
ROTFLMFAO!!!!
> --
> Lord Edam de Fromage
>
> AIM:Sorborus
> WEB:www.trek-wars.co.uk
>
> They had a system there pretty close to ours - but it had only 7 stars
> and one gas giant -- Elim Garak
-Alex Moon
"For those of you just joining us, today we are teaching poodles to fly."
Spyda
>
> On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 18:18:59 +1200, Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com>
> wrote:
>
> >tran...@cybertown.com wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <39722435...@spacemoose.com>,
> >> Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >> >
> >> > This scenario is assuming that the Empire knows that the Federation
> >> exists
> >> > while the Federation knows nothing. It's biased.
> >> >
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >> It's also realistic.
> >
> >Proof?
>
> He's probably thinking of the difference between warp and hyperdrive
> speeds. If the Empire scouted out the Federation beforehand, the
> Federation might know of some odd ships in the terrority, but probably
> would not know the Empire's war machinery at all.
The point is that they would be aware of the ships. He's trying to get across
that the Feds would just sit there all sunshine and lollypops.
Spyda
>
> In article <3972A553...@spacemoose.com>,
> Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
> > tran...@cybertown.com wrote:
> > >
> > > In article <39722435...@spacemoose.com>,
> > > Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
> > > <snip>
> > > >
> > > > This scenario is assuming that the Empire knows that the
> Federation
> > > exists
> > > > while the Federation knows nothing. It's biased.
> > > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > It's also realistic.
> >
> > Proof?
>
> Imperial Probe Droids, stealthed Imperial scout ships, need I REALLY go
> on? Meanwhile, with the slow speeds of Federation and other ST
> governments starships they could search for YEARS and not find the
> Imperial base, or the wormhole assuming there even is one.
There'd have to be some kind of wormhole as neither side has trans galactic
capable ships. And if it's within Federation borders, even the outer borders,
it'll show up on long range sensors from the deep space starbases peppered
around the outskirts.
tran...@cybertown.com
1) SW ships are capable of travelling between galaxies without a
wormhole, it'll take them quite a while but it's possible or the
Outbound Flight Project would never have gotten started.
2)Do you realise how tiny the space of the known so-called "major"
powers of the ST galaxy IS. The Federation is about 8000 lightyears
wide at it's widest point. The ST galaxy (well same as ours actually
so...) just measuring WIDTH is over 100,000 lightyears across. Plenty
of room outside of the known powers' space to hide in. Also plenty of
space for the wormhole be in. Take years to search.
SyG
wrote:
>tran...@cybertown.com wrote:
>>
>> In article <3972A553...@spacemoose.com>,
>> Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
>> > tran...@cybertown.com wrote:
>> > >
>> > > In article <39722435...@spacemoose.com>,
>> > > Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
>> > > <snip>
>> > > >
>> > > > This scenario is assuming that the Empire knows that the
>> Federation
>> > > exists
>> > > > while the Federation knows nothing. It's biased.
>> > > >
>> > > <snip>
>> > >
>> > > It's also realistic.
>> >
>> > Proof?
>> <snip>
>>
>> Imperial Probe Droids, stealthed Imperial scout ships, need I REALLY go
>> on? Meanwhile, with the slow speeds of Federation and other ST
>> governments starships they could search for YEARS and not find the
>> Imperial base, or the wormhole assuming there even is one.
>
>There'd have to be some kind of wormhole as neither side has trans galactic
>capable ships. And if it's within Federation borders, even the outer borders,
>it'll show up on long range sensors from the deep space starbases peppered
>around the outskirts.
>
>
Oh joy, I get to tear apart another unfounded misbleif.
Hyperdrive speeds from CANNON sources are in exess of 10 million times
the speed of light, and that's low end. (Maul's trip was much faster,
but I don't have the figures for it on me.)
The Andromeda galaxy is only 2 million lightyears away.
This equals to a travel time of slightly over 2 months. Like I said
before, it's not a major problem.
How about another example?
The Pinwheel galaxy (M101) is only 22 million lightyears away, putting
travel time around 2 years. Not bad for a transgalactic invasion.
Dwingeloo 1, a large and only recently (1994) discovered galaxy, is
only about 10 million lightyears away, putting travel time in the 1
year range. Still not a problem.
The Southern Pinwheel Galaxy (M83) is only around 15 million light
years away. Gee, a year and a half is rather good time for such a
trip.
Star Trek, however, is much worse off. At warp 9, it would take a
starship over 1319 YEARS just to get to the Andromeda galaxy.......
Don't think starfleet officers sign up for terms quite that long.
tran...@cybertown.com
> > wrote:
> >
> > >tran...@cybertown.com wrote:
> > >>
> > >> In article <39722435...@spacemoose.com>,
> > >> Spyda <sp...@spacemoose.com> wrote:
> > >> <snip>
> > >> >
> > >> > This scenario is assuming that the Empire knows that the
Federation
> > >> exists
> > >> > while the Federation knows nothing. It's biased.
> > >> >
> > >> <snip>
> > >>
> > >> It's also realistic.
> > >
> > >Proof?
> >
> > speeds. If the Empire scouted out the Federation beforehand, the
> > Federation might know of some odd ships in the terrority, but
probably
> > would not know the Empire's war machinery at all.
>
> The point is that they would be aware of the ships. He's trying to
get across
> that the Feds would just sit there all sunshine and lollypops.
>
I never claimed that. Just said they would have little or no intel.
Dalton
>
> Two medics rushed into the room pulling the crash cart. "My god what
> happened to him?" "umm, take a look at this message from Jonathan
> Boyd..it gave him a heart attack"
>
> > > Boyd: This is plain text format, if I'm not mistaken. How do I
> > > get italics?
> >
> > Actually, I just though, you could do italics using HTML posting. But we'd
> > have to kill you then. It's one of the few issues Kynes and I will stand
> > together on.
> >
> > You can represent italics in plain text like this:
> >
> > Normal text is like this, but italics text is like _this_ and bold text is
> > like *this*.
>
> Nononono
>
> normal text is like this, but italic text is like /this/ whilst bold text
> is like *this* and underlined text is like _this_, so when you get some
> stupid fucker who can't quote properly and posts in HTML you show him
> you're really pissed off by shouting in bold underlined italicised text
> *_/LIKE THIS/_*. Failing that you spend half and hour drawing a three
> page ascii art FUCKER that can only be read by turning your screen on its
> side and scrolling.
That's hilarious. It's in the Famous Quotes.
--
Dalton
"Qui a coupé le fromage?" --Freakazoid
Dalton
>
> >DO NOT bring up Lost in Space. They BLATANTLY ripped off Star
> >Wars. As for Steven Hawking's newsletter, which one?
> >
>
> Oh Fuck Off!
>
>
> beloved SW is a rip-off of everything that came
> before it and hyperspace theory goes way back to the 1940s or
> even earlier including landspeeders, speeder bikes [see reruns
> of Fireball XL5 & Stingray] and I bet if I look hard enough
> into past sci-fi I'll probably find a lightsabre-type device.
Exactly what is so bad about it? That page is designed to defuse any
hyperactive Trek goobers looking for easy prey.
PREDATOR
tran...@cybertown.com wrote:
> 1) SW ships are capable of travelling between galaxies without a
> wormhole, it'll take them quite a while but it's possible or the
> Outbound Flight Project would never have gotten started.
However this has large ramifications for logistics. In a wormhole
situation, the Empire can use it's SW galaxy resources, it would have
almost instant access to supplies and reinforcements. Even only a 2
month lag in response from the SW galaxy will seriously hinder their
efforts in the Milky way.
> 2)Do you realise how tiny the space of the known so-called "major"
> powers of the ST galaxy IS. The Federation is about 8000 lightyears
> wide at it's widest point. The ST galaxy (well same as ours actually
> so...) just measuring WIDTH is over 100,000 lightyears across. Plenty
> of room outside of the known powers' space to hide in. Also plenty of
> space for the wormhole be in. Take years to search.
1) The Federation is barely a "Major" power. Technology wise, size wise,
numbers wise, it barely makes the grade. The Dominion would count as a
major power. Of course the Borg would. The Voth would. The Alpha
quadrant powers are probably below average in power compared to the
other quadrants major powers.
2) There have been no sections of the milky way in ST found to be empty
or devoid of civilisation. Great sections of the milky way have never
been seen in ST. Going by what we have seen, it is safe to say that the
as yet unexplored portions house at least a few Federation equivalent
powers, and possibly Voth, Borg or S8472 equivalent super-powers. Only
outside of the galaxy would be safe for the Imperials, and that is
divoid of any resources, which are vital if the Empire is to establish a
self sufficient beachhead in the MW.
John Kang
> > How do you know they would affect it? We've never actually seen what
> > they would do against spacial distortions, all we've seen is it blast a
> > black spot on the side of a ship, which, by the way, didn't seem all
> > that powerful at all.
>
> You see black spots in Trek, not Wars. In Wars, the part of the ship that is
> hit disentigrates. Remember, nerfhead?
Oh yea, the ship just either explodes or there is absolutely no visual
damage. Gee. And what about those blasters? They seem to work on the
same principle as turbolasers. They didn't seem to do that much damage,
nothing close to a phaser.
> > > > They seem to me like pumped-up versions of hand-blasters. And those
> > > > don't seem very powerful at all. How would deflectors on a Star
> > > > Destroyer match against photon torpedoes? We don't know.
> > >
> > > We don't know for certain, but we can figure it out from the known
> > > information, or have you forgotten the entire purpose of this group. An
> > > SD can withstand it's own firepower for at least half an hour, so it
> > > would take thousands of photorps to even make a noticeable dent in the
> > > shields.
> >
> > How do you know what a photon torpedoe's firingpower is compared to a
> > turbolaser? From what I've seen of the turbolasers they're not that
> > powerful at all.
>
> Something which can disentigrate asteroids that could wipe out the American
> continent is pretty damn powerful. In case you have no idea what I'm talking
> about, I'm referring to TESB, the asteroid field scene.
Oh yes, blow away a piece of that's a spec compared to you, that's real
hard, I could do that with a colt 45.
Dalton
>
> > > How do you know they would affect it? We've never actually seen what
> > > they would do against spacial distortions, all we've seen is it blast a
> > > black spot on the side of a ship, which, by the way, didn't seem all
> > > that powerful at all.
> >
> > You see black spots in Trek, not Wars. In Wars, the part of the ship that is
> > hit disentigrates. Remember, nerfhead?
>
> Oh yea, the ship just either explodes or there is absolutely no visual
> damage. Gee. And what about those blasters? They seem to work on the
> same principle as turbolasers. They didn't seem to do that much damage,
> nothing close to a phaser.
>
So now the comparison to Treknology becomes paramount. Well, let's
derail this argument before it gets started. Blasters will kill you just
as dead as phasers. Which is what it is designed for. So what if they
don't have NDF or any other kind of technobabble BS?
> > > > > They seem to me like pumped-up versions of hand-blasters. And those
> > > > > don't seem very powerful at all. How would deflectors on a Star
> > > > > Destroyer match against photon torpedoes? We don't know.
> > > >
> > > > We don't know for certain, but we can figure it out from the known
> > > > information, or have you forgotten the entire purpose of this group. An
> > > > SD can withstand it's own firepower for at least half an hour, so it
> > > > would take thousands of photorps to even make a noticeable dent in the
> > > > shields.
> > >
> > > How do you know what a photon torpedoe's firingpower is compared to a
> > > turbolaser? From what I've seen of the turbolasers they're not that
> > > powerful at all.
> >
> > Something which can disentigrate asteroids that could wipe out the American
> > continent is pretty damn powerful. In case you have no idea what I'm talking
> > about, I'm referring to TESB, the asteroid field scene.
>
> Oh yes, blow away a piece of that's a spec compared to you, that's real
> hard, I could do that with a colt 45.
Shit, Cray, I had no idea you were THAT big! And John, you can blow up a
40m asteroid with a handgun?! Wow! Better tell the military!
Space Cowboy
>Lucas and his designers
>spend a lot of time just thinking out ship designs,
Well, in May of 1977, when everyone else was o-o-o-oohing
and ah-ing to the flyover of [in the original cut] of what
then was called 'Imperial Starship' [not Stardestroyer].
My thoughts were: "shit, the bloody thing looks like a
plumber's nightmare with all those pipes, humps and bumps!"
F.Y.A.H.
Space Cowboy
>I bet they weren't ready for that :)
>
Close Matt, but it is actually from a Roger
[the indie who lets young ppl on for
scale or sometimes free, just so they
could build up a portfolio/experience]
Corman movie, a shoestring budget piece that
satisfied his urge to re-create "The Magnificent
Seven" [with two actors basically reprising their
old roles with new names] which in turn
was a re-make of "The Seven Samurai<sp?Xnews no sp-ck>"
I'll give you three guesses, if you know your film
trivia.
Dalton
>
> Matthew Hyde wrote:
>
> >I bet they weren't ready for that :)
> >
>
> Close Matt, but it is actually from a Roger
> [the indie who lets young ppl on for
> scale or sometimes free, just so they
> could build up a portfolio/experience]
> Corman movie, a shoestring budget piece that
> satisfied his urge to re-create "The Magnificent
> Seven" [with two actors basically reprising their
> old roles with new names] which in turn
> was a re-make of "The Seven Samurai<sp?Xnews no sp-ck>"
>
That's spelt right, yeah.
> I'll give you three guesses, if you know your film
> trivia.
I smell a trip to IMDb coming on.
tran...@cybertown.com
PREDATOR <san.n...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
> > tran...@cybertown.com wrote:
>
> > 1) SW ships are capable of travelling between galaxies without a
>
> > wormhole, it'll take them quite a while but it's possible or the
> > Outbound Flight Project would never have gotten started.
>
> However this has large ramifications for logistics. In a wormhole
> situation, the Empire can use it's SW galaxy resources, it would have
> almost instant access to supplies and reinforcements. Even only a 2
> month lag in response from the SW galaxy will seriously hinder their
> efforts in the Milky way.
>
Ok so bring along a World Devastator and some cloning tanks :P
> > 2)Do you realise how tiny the space of the known so-called "major"
> > powers of the ST galaxy IS. The Federation is about 8000 lightyears
> > wide at it's widest point. The ST galaxy (well same as ours actually
> > so...) just measuring WIDTH is over 100,000 lightyears across.
Plenty
> > of room outside of the known powers' space to hide in. Also plenty
of
> > space for the wormhole be in. Take years to search.
>
> 1) The Federation is barely a "Major" power. Technology wise, size
wise,
> numbers wise, it barely makes the grade. The Dominion would count as a
> major power. Of course the Borg would. The Voth would. The Alpha
> quadrant powers are probably below average in power compared to the
> other quadrants major powers.
>
Agreed.
> 2) There have been no sections of the milky way in ST found to be
empty
> or devoid of civilisation. Great sections of the milky way have never
> been seen in ST. Going by what we have seen, it is safe to say that
the
> as yet unexplored portions house at least a few Federation equivalent
> powers, and possibly Voth, Borg or S8472 equivalent super-powers.
Only
> outside of the galaxy would be safe for the Imperials, and that is
> divoid of any resources, which are vital if the Empire is to
establish a
> self sufficient beachhead in the MW.
>
There has been shown in ST that there ARE large areas with plenty of
starsystems and no life. It's rare but they do occur.
Matthew Hyde
Oh, like a real ship?
Matthew Hyde
Space Cowboy <space...@HephestusStation.com> wrote:
> Matthew Hyde wrote:
> >I bet they weren't ready for that :)
> >
> Close Matt, but it is actually from a Roger
> [the indie who lets young ppl on for
> scale or sometimes free, just so they
> could build up a portfolio/experience]
> Corman movie, a shoestring budget piece that
> satisfied his urge to re-create "The Magnificent
> Seven" [with two actors basically reprising their
> old roles with new names] which in turn
> was a re-make of "The Seven Samurai<sp?Xnews no sp-ck>"
> I'll give you three guesses, if you know your film
> trivia.
I don't. So I'll just say Black Sabbath
Matthew Hyde
Space Cowboy <space...@HephestusStation.com> wrote:
> Matthew Hyde sought to enlighten the world with this:
> >
> >> My thoughts were: "shit, the bloody thing looks like a
> >> plumber's nightmare with all those pipes, humps and bumps!"
> >
> >Oh, like a real ship?
> >
> Last time I looked, real ships, especially submarines had
> smooth hulls, pipes & other stuff were accessable from the
> inside.
Uhhhh
--
The ability of a piece of equipment to function correctly is inversely
proportional to the number of Ph.D.'s in proximity to it.
Matt
On Tue, 18 Jul 2000, Space Cowboy wrote:
> On 18 Jul 2000, you wrote in alt.startrek.vs.starwars:
>
>
> a) The two times I was ever on a real military ship
> {as 'cargo'} the external hull was pretty smooth.
Well they are a plumber's nightmare. There is a rating called Hull
Technician (HT) which gets dubbed "turd chaser."
> >
> >> I'll give you three guesses, if you know your film
> >> trivia.
> >
> >I don't. So I'll just say Black Sabbath
> >
>
> b) 1980's "Battle Beyond The Stars" New World Pictures.
>
Not the one with Molly Ringworm?! Was it?
Computation takes input, applies a finite number of well-defined
operations to it, and gives an output. Thought takes an input, applies
a finite number of poorly defined operations to it, and gives an
output. In both cases the output will be incomprehensible to the
general public.
Crayz9000
"Space Cowboy" <space...@HephestusStation.com> wrote in message
news:8F75B3CHeph...@137.195.74.20...
> Crayz9000 sought to enlighten the world with this:
> >I take it that you never saw the movie.
> I own a copy of the movie [DVD].
And how do you like it? It hardly had any of the original flavor of LIS. It
was even worse than ST when it came to real physics. For example, they use
their "hyperdrive" to go straight THROUGH the sun.
> >
> >Lucas and his designers
> >spend a lot of time just thinking out ship designs,
>
> Crock of shit! His ships borrowed heavily from the designs of
> Derek Meddings and his crew. indeed alot of Medding's ppl worked
> at Pinewood during the making of the first movie in '74-76.
> Look at the 'guest' vessels from "Space: 1999".
Hello, crock of shit indeed. Did you know how much work they put into the
design of TPM ships? For example, Lucas wanted a plain flying saucer. He
found that it was hard to tell where the front was, and stuck engines on it.
His designers then figured that it didn't look right for a battleship, and
it finally became a flying dougnut with prongs. Then look at the queen's
royal ship. His main designer was walking by a jewelery shop, trying to
figure out what it should be like. He saw a piece of Art Deco jewelery, and
that's where he got the idea. The list goes on and on.
> >shuttles. In ST, if you look at pictures of Daedelus-class
> >ships, does anyone notice that they look like the Discovery
> >from 2001?
>
> You mean Horizon/Archon Classes?
I'm not sure, but if you go to many sites, they have pictures of
sphere-headed, barrel-bodied ships and list them as "Daedalus-class".
> Wrong again Boy-o! go look at the Whitfield/Roddenberry
> book "The Making of Star Trek" RELEASED in 1968! Pages
> 81 through 83. These sketches were later released as
> "The Enterprise Evolution Prints" circa 1984.
Well, that's new to me. Even so, the movie "2001" was RELEASED in '68, not
made in '68.
> >idea. It's in several older sci-fi books. ST ships are flying
> >saucers on stilts.
>
> Justified at the time because they WERE getting a lot of feedback
> from NASA and everyone back then was stuck in a 'command module'
> 'service module' mode and that is what Roddenberry ordered.
Saucers on stilts are not particularly suited to combat.
Crayz9000
"Space Cowboy" <space...@HephestusStation.com> wrote in message
news:8F7577F6Heph...@137.195.74.20...
> Crayz9000 sought to enlighten the world with this:
>
> >Lucas and his designers
> >spend a lot of time just thinking out ship designs,
>
>
> Well, in May of 1977, when everyone else was o-o-o-oohing
> and ah-ing to the flyover of [in the original cut] of what
> then was called 'Imperial Starship' [not Stardestroyer].
>
> My thoughts were: "shit, the bloody thing looks like a
> plumber's nightmare with all those pipes, humps and bumps!"
Well, then tell me how easy it is to build a sleekly painted starship as
compared to a ship that has half its (coolant?) pipes exposed. Humps and
bumps are very simple. They house equipment, turbolasers, sensors, etc. Did
you know how hard it is to utilize the space on a round ship compared to a
triangular ship? Plus where would you put the main drive? A perfect flying
saucer would have to have thrusters on every surface.
Besides, every time that the sleekly painted starship goes through combat,
it has to be repainted. What a waste of money (but considering that the
Federation is socialistic, it probably doesn't matter.)
If you want to know, my favorite class of Fed starship is the Constitution
refit. It had the nicest lines of any of them.
Crayz9000
"Space Cowboy" <space...@HephestusStation.com> wrote in message
news:8F7550365Hep...@137.195.74.20...
> Matthew Hyde sought to enlighten the world with this:
>
> >
> >> My thoughts were: "shit, the bloody thing looks like a
> >> plumber's nightmare with all those pipes, humps and bumps!"
> >
> >Oh, like a real ship?
> >
>
> Last time I looked, real ships, especially submarines had
> smooth hulls, pipes & other stuff were accessable from the
> inside.
Last time I looked, a *real* ship floated on the water. And it had
appendages, bumps, etc. Subs don't count because the water friction demands
that they have sleek hulls. In space, you don't have even much air friction,
so you can build whatever you want.
Matthew Hyde
> John Kang wrote:
> >
> > Dalton wrote:
> > >
> > > John Kang wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Exactly how fast is the hyperdrive mechanism in SW anyway? I've heard
> > > > Solo describe his fast ship the Falcon as being able to do .5 past
> > > > lightspeed. I don't know exactly what the .5 refers to but if it can't
> > > > be such a drastic change as by several hundred thousand times, as this
> > > > plan would suggest it being capable of. I think we can ignore most of
> > > > the books because we know most of the authors just use the tech as a
> > > > side note to the real storyline and don't bother to think too much into
> > > > the tech.
> > >
> > > Canon examples place it at 29,000,000x or more the speed of light.
> > >
> > > > Also, the Feds could develope hyperspace dampeners.
> > >
> > > Unlikely.
> > >
> > > > Hyperspace, after all, is the same thing as subspace (the term was
> > > > renamed for some reason).
> > >
> > > Proof? "hyper" means "above". "Sub" means "below".
> >
> > The theories on hyperspace is a region below normal space, don't know
> > why they call it "hyper" space, but it was originally dubbed subspace,
> > until later changed.
> >
> Which theories on hyperspace/subspace?
It's not a theory, it's a definition to set up a deductive system for
making theories that fit the reality imposed by the definition. He may not
mean to, but he is referring to a mathematical definition that can't really
apply to sci-fantasy, that is, hyperspace is the (n-1)th space if you are
in n-space, so that the xy plane is a hyperspace of 3-space,
blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah
--
The ability of a piece of equipment to function correctly is inversely
proportional to the number of Ph.D.'s in proximity to it.
Matt Hyde
Lord Edam de Fromage
happened to him?" "umm, take a look at this message from Jonathan
Boyd..it gave him a heart attack"
> >> You can represent italics in plain text like this:
> >>
> >> Normal text is like this, but italics text is like _this_ and bold text is
> >> like *this*.
> >
> > Nononono
> >
> > normal text is like this, but italic text is like /this/ whilst bold text
> > is like *this* and underlined text is like _this_, so when you get some
> > stupid fucker who can't quote properly and posts in HTML you show him
> > you're really pissed off by shouting in bold underlined italicised text
> > *_/LIKE THIS/_*. Failing that you spend half and hour drawing a three
> > page ascii art FUCKER that can only be read by turning your screen on its
> > side and scrolling.
>
> No, no, on, no, no!
YES
> Italics _are_ like _this_
So how do you underline?
That's why ship names in
> fanfics are like this: _Enterprise_. You put ship names in italics, not
> underlined. same with thoughts.
No, one person decided to underline ship names instead of italicisifying
them, and everyone else baaa'ed. I'm right. Look. See.
Jonathan Boyd
michael....@physics.org:
>> No, no, on, no, no!
> YES
Nah.
>> Italics _are_ like _this_
>
> So how do you underline?
I've no idea. Like this?
-----
>> That's why ship names in fanfics are like this: _Enterprise_. You put ship
>> names in italics, not underlined. same with thoughts.
> No, one person decided to underline ship names instead of italicisifying
> them, and everyone else baaa'ed. I'm right. Look. See.
In Ms Word if you type _this_ then it automatically removes the '_'s and
puts 'this' in italics.
Nyah, hah :^b
--
Jonathan
Cyborg Stan of CyKoLaJx, Inc.
<cray...@SOCKS.mailandnews.com> wrote:
>Hello, crock of shit indeed. Did you know how much work they put into the
>design of TPM ships? For example, Lucas wanted a plain flying saucer. He
>found that it was hard to tell where the front was, and stuck engines on it.
>His designers then figured that it didn't look right for a battleship, and
>it finally became a flying dougnut with prongs. Then look at the queen's
>royal ship. His main designer was walking by a jewelery shop, trying to
>figure out what it should be like. He saw a piece of Art Deco jewelery, and
>that's where he got the idea. The list goes on and on.
I like the story behind the M. Falcon myself. Hamburgers rock.
Outlyer Base at
http://www.ipass.net/~bdiller/
email : bdi...@ipass.net
ICQ - 32779556
Space Cowboy
>"Space Cowboy" <space...@HephestusStation.com> wrote in
>message news:8F75B3CHeph...@137.195.74.20...
>
>And how do you like it? It hardly had any of the original
Its a 'repeatable' movie for me.
>flavor of LIS. It was even worse than ST when it came to real
>physics. For example, they use their "hyperdrive" to go
>straight THROUGH the sun.
Their drive was based on theories of going inter-
dimensional. They passed through the location of
the sun but in a different space.
>
>> >
>> >Lucas and his designers
>> >spend a lot of time just thinking out ship designs,
>>
>> Crock of shit! His ships borrowed heavily from the designs
>> of Derek Meddings and his crew. indeed alot of Medding's
>> ppl worked at Pinewood during the making of the first movie
>> in '74-76. Look at the 'guest' vessels from "Space: 1999".
>
>Hello, crock of shit indeed. Did you know how much work they
>put into the design of TPM ships?
I was refering to what would later be called
ANH, which was made almost exclusively at Pinewood, in
England, for cost cutting.
>
>> >shuttles. In ST, if you look at pictures of Daedelus-class
>> >ships, does anyone notice that they look like the
>> >Discovery from 2001?
>>
>> You mean Horizon/Archon Classes?
"Daedelus" is ^&*%# Okuda's term for the ship class.
>
>I'm not sure, but if you go to many sites, they have pictures
>of sphere-headed, barrel-bodied ships and list them as
>"Daedalus-class".
>
>> Wrong again Boy-o! go look at the Whitfield/Roddenberry
>> book "The Making of Star Trek" RELEASED in 1968! Pages
>> 81 through 83. These sketches were later released as
>> "The Enterprise Evolution Prints" circa 1984.
>
>Well, that's new to me. Even so, the movie "2001" was
>RELEASED in '68, not made in '68.
Ok i can see defending ones' fave movie.
I do that with "Battle Beyond the Stars"
because many of the actors were old friends of Corman's
who had their first break through him. It was well done
despite a shoestring budget and that is where true
creativity comes in, doing a lot with very little.
It is far too easy to burn money while making a movie.
Sure the FX suffered, but the model construction was
excellent and if you pay attention there are homages
to more that "Magnificent Seven", SW & ST and he
left the whole buggaboo about interstellar travel
ambiguous<sp?>, leaving it to the viewers imagination.
Ok, wanna play 'whose on first?'
The book [Ballatine SBN, should be ISBN now, #345-24691-8-195]
took over a year to put together. The idea (ST) was born in 1960
[page 21], the pilot ep "The Cage" was delivered to NBC
February 1965 [page 122] after 10 months. Therefore Matt
Jeffries' preliminary sketches and drawings for the Enterprise
were made long before that, if you read chapters one through
eight. Some of those later became the Horizon/Archon/Daedelus
[and the later Hope/Olympic medical frigate] classes.
[damn you Crazy9000, if you find one, you owe me a copy
because the spine on my aged copy just gave out while i
was looking up the page numbers!]
>
Space Cowboy
> A
>perfect flying saucer would have to have thrusters on every
>surface.
>
Not on a true grav/anti-grav vessel, take Klaatu's ship
[Day the Earth Stood Still...an anti-war movie]
or the C-57D, which used an energy field to touch down
[Forbidden Planet...based on Shakespear's The Tempest]
and inspired certain things Trek.