--
Tyralak,
Supreme Commander of the Imperial Romulan Warbird, Psionax
Official ASVS Token Trekkie
> One of my favorite bits from YouTube. Just a taste of what would
> happen if the Daleks fought the Empire. The obvious answer that
> anyone with a brain can figure out, is that the Empire would be
> curbstomped. This clip just demonstrates it.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyEBqJBtPlU&feature=related
Well, it wouldn't be a complete curbstomp, the Empire could at least
nail a few Dalek ships in space. Before the Daleks invoke time travel,
anyway, at which point all bets are off and let's pray the Doctor
somehow gets involved.
However, the Stormtroopers are pretty much screwed -- they have some
heavy weapons that should be able to take Daleks apart pretty easily,
like the E-WEB, but the Dalek strategy seems to be more heavily
oriented in the recent seasons toward "overwhelming firepower".
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:36:48 GMT
> Tyralak <Tyr...@secureundisclosedlocation.com> wrote:
>
>> One of my favorite bits from YouTube. Just a taste of what would
>> happen if the Daleks fought the Empire. The obvious answer that
>> anyone with a brain can figure out, is that the Empire would be
>> curbstomped. This clip just demonstrates it.
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyEBqJBtPlU&feature=related
>
> Well, it wouldn't be a complete curbstomp, the Empire could at least
> nail a few Dalek ships in space. Before the Daleks invoke time travel,
I hope you're not insinuating that the Daleks would try to run away. It
would be the equivelent of cavemen throwing rocks at a Sherman tank. Why
would the tank retreat?
> anyway, at which point all bets are off and let's pray the Doctor
> somehow gets involved.
>
> However, the Stormtroopers are pretty much screwed -- they have some
> heavy weapons that should be able to take Daleks apart pretty easily,
> like the E-WEB, but the Dalek strategy seems to be more heavily
> oriented in the recent seasons toward "overwhelming firepower".
>
It's possible they could get a few ships, and some individual Daleks,
but as we've seen in this last season especially, Dalek technology
borders on magic. I've been to a few sites recently (Don't have them
bookmarked, or I'd list them) which detail the capabilities of
individual Daleks. Their aromor for one, is capable of facilitating time
travel and they have personal sheilding which utilizes space/time
distortions. But you're right. They do go for overwhelming force.
Something else I will mention, but only if you've seen the entirety of
the last season. I don't want to spoil it for you.
S
P
O
I
L
E
R
S
P
A
C
E
G
R
A
E
M
E
D
I
C
E
I
S
A
D
I
C
K
Any race that is capable of kidnapping entire planets and creating a
device to destroy all reality - all dimensions - is so far avanced over
the Empire it's not even worth mentioning.
> John Hansen <cray...@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:20081013203942.5a12032a@box1:
>
> > On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:36:48 GMT
> > Tyralak <Tyr...@secureundisclosedlocation.com> wrote:
> >
> >> One of my favorite bits from YouTube. Just a taste of what would
> >> happen if the Daleks fought the Empire. The obvious answer that
> >> anyone with a brain can figure out, is that the Empire would be
> >> curbstomped. This clip just demonstrates it.
> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyEBqJBtPlU&feature=related
> >
> > Well, it wouldn't be a complete curbstomp, the Empire could at least
> > nail a few Dalek ships in space. Before the Daleks invoke time
> > travel,
>
> I hope you're not insinuating that the Daleks would try to run away.
> It would be the equivelent of cavemen throwing rocks at a Sherman
> tank. Why would the tank retreat?
It's not that they would retreat - it's just the most efficient way of
doing things. We are talking about an Empire with millions of
capital ships (even if you assume only 1 Star Destroyer or equivalent
per member world, which is pretty much the bare minimum needed for
defense/garrison, that's still over one million ships).
Their other options would be to
a) flood the Empire with millions if not billions of Dalek ships to
suppress every planet at once (don't forget that they did send one
fleet against Earth... a rather insignificant planet in the Whoverse,
all things considered, even if most players take a rather strong
interest in it.),
or
b) send a strong force of many thousands of vessels and systematically
EXTERMINATE starting at one end of the galaxy, a task that could take
an inordinately long amount of time even if they do have overwhelming
firepower.
<snip rest - agreed>
And if you ask me, the new Doctor Who guys were clearly inspired by
our very own Imperials when they fleshed out the Daleks. Or at least
the Imperium.
One million SD's?
The figure I heard was closer to 25,000.
>
> Their other options would be to
>
> a) flood the Empire with millions if not billions of Dalek ships to
> suppress every planet at once (don't forget that they did send one
> fleet against Earth... a rather insignificant planet in the Whoverse,
> all things considered, even if most players take a rather strong
> interest in it.),
First they would target Coruscant I think.
>
> or
>
> b) send a strong force of many thousands of vessels and systematically
> EXTERMINATE starting at one end of the galaxy, a task that could take
> an inordinately long amount of time even if they do have overwhelming
> firepower.
>
I don't think that would be likely. It would rather be inefficient.
www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html
liam=mail
> You know, I read the thread title, and for some reason the name
> "Tyralak" just popped into my mind for some reason. No, I don't know
> what that reason is, I just had a sneaking suspicion.
Very perceptive you are. Yes.
>
> And if you ask me, the new Doctor Who guys were clearly inspired by
> our very own Imperials when they fleshed out the Daleks. Or at least
> the Imperium.
How so?
> On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 04:15:09 GMT
> Tyralak <Tyr...@secureundisclosedlocation.com> wrote:
>
>> John Hansen <cray...@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:20081013203942.5a12032a@box1:
>>
>> > On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 02:36:48 GMT
>> > Tyralak <Tyr...@secureundisclosedlocation.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> One of my favorite bits from YouTube. Just a taste of what would
>> >> happen if the Daleks fought the Empire. The obvious answer that
>> >> anyone with a brain can figure out, is that the Empire would be
>> >> curbstomped. This clip just demonstrates it.
>> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyEBqJBtPlU&feature=related
>> >
>> > Well, it wouldn't be a complete curbstomp, the Empire could at
least
>> > nail a few Dalek ships in space. Before the Daleks invoke time
>> > travel,
>>
>> I hope you're not insinuating that the Daleks would try to run away.
>> It would be the equivelent of cavemen throwing rocks at a Sherman
>> tank. Why would the tank retreat?
>
> It's not that they would retreat - it's just the most efficient way of
> doing things. We are talking about an Empire with millions of
> capital ships (even if you assume only 1 Star Destroyer or equivalent
> per member world, which is pretty much the bare minimum needed for
> defense/garrison, that's still over one million ships).
Just curious. Where do you get the millions number? I don't recall any
evidence that there was a presence at every world. It doesn't exactly
take that long to get to places in the SW universe, they wouldn't need
to.
>
> Their other options would be to
>
> a) flood the Empire with millions if not billions of Dalek ships to
> suppress every planet at once (don't forget that they did send one
> fleet against Earth... a rather insignificant planet in the Whoverse,
> all things considered, even if most players take a rather strong
> interest in it.),
>
> or
>
> b) send a strong force of many thousands of vessels and systematically
> EXTERMINATE starting at one end of the galaxy, a task that could take
> an inordinately long amount of time even if they do have overwhelming
> firepower.
>
> <snip rest - agreed>
They wouldn't do something like that. Take too much time. They would hit
strategic targets. Take out manufacturing facilities, C&C areas, and
other important targets. It would still be funny to see a Dalek battle
fleet tear apart a Death Star.
Not in the so-called G or even T level canon for SW. But you will find
in some of the more obscure passages of EU material and ICS. The
closest G-level canon source is the ANH novelization, which has Tarkin
mentioning the "million systems" of the Empire. Million member worlds,
or million worlds that happens to be a mix of member worlds, colonies,
and uninhabited worlds, too?
The TPM novelization places membership in the Galactic Republic at
100,000 worlds, and the AoTC movie dialog from Palpatine suggests that
10,000 worlds siding with the CIS, which already had several thousand
systems under it's collective thumb, was enough to "split in two" the
Republic. Which suggests less than 50,000 member worlds.
As we saw at Tatooine, there were no Imperial capital ship presence
there prior to the Devastator/Tantive IV incident. According the to
the ANH novelization, Tatooine did not even possess space station
facilities. So the Empire clearly does not have ships stationed around
at every planet. Alderaan prior to it's destruction by the Death Star,
did not appear to have any Imperial presence, and in neither the
movie, nor the novelization does Tarkin, Vader, or any Imperial
official express concern over destroying Alderaan for fear of also
destroying any Imperial assets stationed on or near there.
-Mike
I think he was talking about the ships, not the worlds.
www.nksf.scifics.com/nksfseries.html
liam=mail
Naturally, he probably assumed that there would at least be one ship
per world, but Mike has just suggested that that might not in fact be
the case. Interesting.
You are correct, Ray. One ship per 50,000-100,000 worlds seems oddly
excessive given the lack of Imperial ships and bases at places like
remote Tatooine, or core world Alderaan. Han even explicitly states in
the ANH movie his puzzlement at the TIE fighter's presence in the
Alderaan system by noting: "There aren't any bases around here Where
did it come from?".
Alderaan's supplying munitions and money to the Rebel Alliance also
indicates a rather interesting independence from Imperial control.
Also very curious for a supposed core world that ought to be tightly
under Imperial control, if the Empire has so many ships and resources
at it's disposal. My personal theory is that the Death Star project
siphoned off a considerable amount of resources that might otherwise
have gone into building many millions more conventional ships.
-Mike
> You are correct, Ray.
That's Ray_Cav_ to you :p
>One ship per 50,000-100,000 worlds seems oddly
> excessive given the lack of Imperial ships and bases at places like
> remote Tatooine, or core world Alderaan. Han even explicitly states in
> the ANH movie his puzzlement at the TIE fighter's presence in the
> Alderaan system by noting: "There aren't any bases around here Where
> did it come from?".
>
> Alderaan's supplying munitions and money to the Rebel Alliance also
> indicates a rather interesting independence from Imperial control.
> Also very curious for a supposed core world that ought to be tightly
> under Imperial control, if the Empire has so many ships and resources
> at it's disposal. My personal theory is that the Death Star project
> siphoned off a considerable amount of resources that might otherwise
> have gone into building many millions more conventional ships.
> -Mike
Well, I'm still a Warsie at heart, so I'll offer this interpretation:
We know Alderaan had a planetary defense shield that was so strong its
existence (or rather the existence of such shields in general) was the
impetus for the Death Star in the first place. Provided that they are
self-sufficient enough (shouldn't be a problem for an entire planet)
parking a Star Destroyer in the system would be more or less pointless
anyway. It's also possible Alderaan had some active defensive or even
offensive capability as well, enough to ward off a sizable fleet.
TIE Fighters are very short ranged (lacking hyperdrives, so they're
strictly STL) and there were no nearby planets nor did Han pick up any
capital ships, hence his surprise that there was a TIE flying around.
That is a good idea, but it doesn't quite hold up to close scrutiny.
First off, the Empire not having ships, bases, and stations around
outlying worlds like Tatooine is perfectly understandable. It's just a
stupid little dirtball in the middle of nowhere, right? But Alderaan,
on the other hand, should have gotten considerably more attention,
especially early on. The establishment of bases and garrisons would
have been perfectly understandable, especially during the build-up of
the Clone War. Does Alderaan have an all-encompassing shield? I've
seen arguements for and against it, and lord knows it's inspired some
very... um, "heated" debate here and elsewhere.
The strongest evidence against it is the clear lack of one in the RoTS
movie, and not even the slightest hint of even a Hoth-like theater
shield in the novelization for Courscant. While I know that there have
been attempts at an ICS retcon for the shield not being there, the
highest canon of the movie and novelization prevail. Thus I am
assuming that Alderaan has theater shielding, and some anti-capital
ship defenses as.
> TIE Fighters are very short ranged (lacking hyperdrives, so they're
> strictly STL) and there were no nearby planets nor did Han pick up any
> capital ships, hence his surprise that there was a TIE flying around.
It's Han's clear statement in the movie and novelization about there
being no (Imperial) bases around there that is what is most telling.
The fact that there are no large Imperial captial ships around says
more about the size of the Imperial fleet than anything else. After
all, shield and defenses or not, there is no reason why the Empire
couldn't come up with an excuse for not having at least some old
assault ships and former Republic cruisers (aka Acclamators and
Venators respectively in the ICS EU material) to patrol around and a
base or station.
Also, a siege by the Imperial navy for Alderaan need not last forever,
even if it has a shield since the Heir to the Empire trilogy clearly
states that the top-of-the-line shields of Courscant will not last
more than several months before power runs out.
-Mike
>
> Naturally, he probably assumed that there would at least be one ship
> per world, but Mike has just suggested that that might not in fact be
> the case. Interesting.
>
I don't think it would be nessecarry to have even one ship per world.
Hyperspace travel is very fast, and the whole point of the Death Star
was outlined by the line. Paraphrasing:"Fear will keep the locals in
line. Fear of this battle station" The existance of the Death Star was
likely meant to be enough to keep any uprisng at bay.
> Well, I'm still a Warsie at heart, so I'll offer this interpretation:
Good. We need Warsies here. It's not a good thing to have ASVS be a Trekkie
wank fest, any more than SDN is a big Warsie bread party.
Oh yes. That's what SDN is. You have to admit. Just a big Warsie bread
You're just gonna find every excuse to use that word aren't you?:p
I sure am. Until it's included in the Oxford Dictionary.
Is SDN bread made of neutronium? ;-)
-Mike
...you really don't want to know
That would make it even worse. Do you know what a bread party is?
...don't tell him!
Muwahahahah!
Oh yes, which is WHY I asked if it's made of neutronium. >;-)
-Mike
Oh man, I feel so sorry for you.
ROFLMAO! That ouwld be hard to eat. But maybe softer after the SDN guys
get through with it. I wonder which one of them will lose? *evil grin*
Well, while I'm at it, I might as well rant about SDN and SB.com for a
bit.
It's been long enough so that I can't remember why exactly I got
banned from SDN both time (yes, twice) except that it was entirely my
fault and I just had problems. Hehe, yeah, problems needless to say.
Actually, I do remember a rather interesting fanfic being involved, in
which Wong wisely sought to destroy all copies ever written. Anyway, I
suppose part of my problem with SB.com was that I was already carrying
a lot of that baggage going in. And most of the people there are
pretty good people, but there was always the occasional pedantic moron
here and there that would always get on my nerves. A lot of it was
just unintentional but there were a few who, believe me, really were
going out of their way to be goddamn fucking assholes. Like one time
when there was some sort of debate on real life politics, I forgot the
exact nature, and I brought up something about third world countries
vs. second world countries vs. first world countries. Now, definitions
aren't exactly solidified on certain abstract concepts, especially
when they tend to get twisted around in the media and elsewhere.
Anyway, a lot of people define "first world nations" as being
superpowers, with "second world nations" being regional powers and
"third world nations" being anything lower. Of course, it got into a
shitstorm when some pedantic morons kept bringing me down and calling
me an idiot because I apparently don't know that "first world nations"
were really allied with NATO, "second world nations" were allied with
the Warsaw Pact and "third world nations" were neutral! I guess
someone should tell the fucking asshole that there were a lot of
"third world nations" who were actively sided with the U.S. or Soviet
Union and often switched sides but weren't exactly neutral - and I
don't see a lot of people being in a hurry to call Switzerland a third
world nation! And then there was a thread where somewhere I was
arguing that something was anti-Semetic in the "racism against Jews"
sense - and then some morons tried to put me down by trying to make my
argument invalid, arguing that it's not anti-Semetic because anti-
Semitism only refers to racism against Muslims!
I mean, goddamn, it fucking pisses me off. Little stuff like this, but
a few posters here and there would just make it build until it just
finally got to the point where I had enough - I was goddamn fucking
pissed and just about ready to kill. So I just got so fed up, I just
lost it and I fucking dared the mods to ban me. Yes, I posted a pic of
tubgirl followed by the exact message, "I fucking DEMAND you ban me."
And they did.
No doubt this message will filter its way back to SDN and SB.com
considering how infamous I've become. And you know what? I-don't-give-
a-mother-fucking-damn of what those goddamn wankers think. Let them
think I'm the world's biggest crybaby, because they're not going to
care anyway beyond the massive fanwank cloistered self-congratulatory
self-fellatioing breadparty that SDN and some of the inner, tighter
cliques of SB.com have become. And I'm not going to care either, and
nobody in the fucking world is gonna care what they think of me
anyway.
But, with that said, I still wouldn't mind if white_rabbit and
Cpl_Facehugger were to suddenly drop dead this second and burn in hell.
>
> But, with that said, I still wouldn't mind if white_rabbit and
> Cpl_Facehugger were to suddenly drop dead this second and burn
> in hell.
I told Rob Dalton last year after my "Where did everybody go?"
post that I wouldn"t join the SDN bbs unless he could get me senior
status 'cause I won't be treated as a newbie but he and I have had
emails from time to time.
Wasted about three hours last night trying to find the deaf kid and
other posters I would recognize but found nothing....too much to wade
through.
--
Origin: "Battle Beyond The Stars"[1980,George Peppard,actor.Roger
Corman,producer,low budget but fun to watch]
See "The Magnificent Seven" & The Seven Samurai"...
"Classic" Trekker and presently, a Browncoat!
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about! Bring the fire back to ASVS! You'll
never be banned here, because this is USENET. It's not possible to ban
someone! That makes ASVS the most democratic of all situations. That's
partially why SDN exists, some poeple wanted to control the discussion.
Somebody says something that tey don't like, they can get rid of them.
Just as Ali about Galacticus.
I want to know!
> <command...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:db62b9f5-d438-4625-afc9-
13c658...@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Yes, but it's their warped idea of what neutronium is, so it would be
hard for the loser to eat after they're done.
LOL...but I have a feeling that wouldn't stop them from trying to eat
it...especially after wong gets done...
Isn't Wong the president of the two inch society?
You're giving him too much credit ;)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but it's their warped idea of what neutronium is, so it would
be
>>>> hard for the loser to eat after they're done.
>>>
>>> LOL...but I have a feeling that wouldn't stop them from trying to
eat
>>> it...especially after wong gets done...
>>
>> Isn't Wong the president of the two inch society?
>
> You're giving him too much credit ;)
I'm feeling generous today.