Where is IDIC? (was: Askem Noone - how it started)
T'Len
>IDIC is all around us ...
>I have stayed out of this debate, as I have not read the stories in
>question ... and do not plan to. However, I have found the discusison
>rather fascinating, if not a bit tedious (as it has taken over the
>list) ... but now, when the question of IDIC has come up, I thought I
>would put in my 2¢
>If we are to follow the philosophy of IDIC, we must be willing to
>accept *ALL* the posts that are submitted to the list, not just the
>ones that are supportive and accepting.
>Read what you want ... agree to dissagree, if you must ... but do not
>say that someone should not post, because you do not care for the way
>they do it (using Ascem Noone), or for what they have to say.
You did get me wrong, T'Lin. I'm not claiming IDIC in the way that there
should be no negative reactions. That would be stupid. Anybody has the
right of hir own opinion. But there is a huge difference between a
respectfully voiced disagrement and a flame.
T'Maia was positive that she would be flamed if she posts certain stories.
Noone felt it neccessery to hide hir identity, Robin saw the need of create
the Noone-possibility. All this wouldn't be neccessary if IDIC really rules
here.
Alone the fact that ppl. flame others (and I don't refere to a special case
yet) shows that IDIC isn't living here. I can give critics, open opinions,
differents POVs, a disagreement and I still can have in mind that the other
has all rights for hir own own, different opinions like I have and thread
this person that way. The flames I saw here over the last 1 1/2 year didn't
show any respect for the oposite, they did hurt and they didn't except the
others rights and opinions. The flamer often insisted that s/he was teh
only person who had the right opinion. That's not IDIC. There were no
acceptance of differences.
I DO accept Alara's, Noone's and all the other objections against my story.
I never said anything less then that. But I do not accept that at least a
few of those opinions where built without knowing it. It's not IDIC to
object against anything only after reading the header and the comments of
others but without having an own look at it. For me IDIC does not mean that
I have to agree with any way the diversity is shown but I have to grant it
the right to exist and give it the honor of a attentive thought-over before
I voice my own disagreement.
Do you know "Leben und Leben lassen?"
T'Len
************************************************************
The TOS Twins: Fanfiction in English and German by Lady Charena and T'Len
http://home.dencity.com/TOSTwins/KSlash.htm
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a.h.vericker
----- Original Message -----
From: T'Lin <femme_f...@yahoo.com>
To: <ASC...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 6:48 PM
Subject: [ASCEML] Re: Where is IDIC? (was: Askem Noone - how it started)
IDIC is all around us ...
I have stayed out of this debate, as I have not read the stories in
question ... and do not plan to. However, I have found the discusison
rather fascinating, if not a bit tedious (as it has taken over the
list) ... but now, when the question of IDIC has come up, I thought I
would put in my 2¢
If we are to follow the philosophy of IDIC, we must be willing to
accept *ALL* the posts that are submitted to the list, not just the
ones that are supportive and accepting.
Read what you want ... agree to dissagree, if you must ... but do not
say that someone should not post, because you do not care for the way
they do it (using Ascem Noone), or for what they have to say.
>:-]
T'Lin
I agree, T'Lin.
If incest stories are allowed on this list then so be it. Whether we
like it or not sibs can post them. Though I will admit, I never
expected to see one here. But I did not read them. I hit delete as
soon as I saw what they were about. My choice. I personally do not
want to see K&S in situations like that. But certainly sibs who read
them and want to post their FB should be able to do it both pro and con
in anyway they want, (even Ascem Noone) It certainly can't be a surprise
to the writers of these stories that a subject such as incest would stir
things up around here.....
Helen
T'Len
>I was not a writer of these stories, but I actually *am* surprised at
>all the excitement. I thought that if a deathbed fisting story
>didn't generate a furor (hi, Sunbeam!), then nothing would.
>A fifteen-year-old is hardly a helpless child - particularly a
>fifteen-year-old Jim Kirk. In many cultures, someone of this age is
>considered to be an adult. Incest is not necessarily synonomous with
>child abuse.
Exactly what I'm trying to say the whole time. It's just a topic nobody can
generalize.
>This is fiction. No real person is being exploited, no child is
>being abused. It's fiction. Any subject matter should be welcome.
>You're free to read it or not as you choose.
Again: Exactly my point. There is no law what says fanfiction has to cope
reality. Not to mention that we are talking about a SF-series. I wonder why
ppl. do not understand this.
<snip>
>That, incidentally, is exactly what "Askem Noone" did. Not well,
>IMO, but that's beside the point. It's a shame that someone would
>feel that they need to hide behind a flame barrier called "Askem
>Noone" in order to post a satiric rebuttal.
I agree it's a shame.
>Repeat after me: It's only a story. It's only a story. It's only a
>story . . .
EmGee, may I just say: Amen? I can't think of any better concluding adress
then yours. You hit exactly the points I'm trying to make clear the whole
time.
I wonder what had happened is Noone had have the guts to post under some
regognizable name? Unfortunately we never will know. I for myself had just
given some fb for the drabble, preferable even in private as I'm no one who
steps easily at other ppls feelings, and that just had been it.
I'm tired of all this. And I can do better with my time. I don't know if
Noone got what s/he wanted. If so, s/he can be "proud" of hirself.
Again: Amen, finito, Ende. That's all folks!!!!!!!!
T'Len
************************************************************
The TOS Twins: Fanfiction in English and German by Lady Charena and T'Len
http://home.dencity.com/TOSTwins/KSlash.htm
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
T'Len
>If incest stories are allowed on this list then so be it. Whether we
>like it or not sibs can post them. Though I will admit, I never
>expected to see one here. But I did not read them. I hit delete as
>soon as I saw what they were about. My choice. I personally do not
>want to see K&S in situations like that. But certainly sibs who read
>them and want to post their FB should be able to do it both pro and con
>in anyway they want, (even Ascem Noone) It certainly can't be a surprise
>to the writers of these stories that a subject such as incest would stir
>things up around here.....
>Helen
Helen, I completely understand you. As I alread stated in my answer to
T'Lin claimign IDIC is not a question of claimign agreement from all parts.
That would be a crazy idea. I'm raised up in a country were equalizing was
at the agenda. It never works - believe me.
You say you do not like/read such stories. Fine. That's a clear statement,
something I can deal with as the author. BTW as I posted the story I was
thinking about possible reactions from a few ppl. I think I can guess their
raectiosn from previous posted likes/dislikes. May I say that you did not
disappoint me. And I'm sure I can guess a few other which haven't read it
either.
I wouldn't mind to hear from you that you did nit want to read such
stories. I also wouldn't mind if someone has read the story and voices his
critics then. As an author I have to deal with all these reactions. That's
not what makes me doubt IDIC.
What's troubling me is the fact that Alara did judge about a story she
didn't read. She saw the header, she saw other comments and she built her
own opinion without knowing the original. Such a behaviour makes me doubt.
As well is Noone. Not that s/he hided behind anonymity. S/he made it clear
that she did wrote the drabble because s/he was upset with the positive fb
our stories got. If s/he found this inappropriate why didn't s/he post an
answer to said mails or hir own fb to the stories instead of triggerung the
reactions s/he wanted to see from other ppl. imo s/he snuggle sat back and
elt other do the dirty work for her. It as a shame that someone feels the
neccessity to hide because s/he fears the reactions. That makes me doubt,
too, not voiced disagreements, giving critics.
I hope I was able to made my point clearer now.
TLin
Sorry if this posts twice ... when I first replied (through the yahoogroups
page) I was dissconnected, then couldn't get back, so I'm trying agian through
aol <shrug>)
>T'Lin wrote:
>
>>IDIC is all around us ...
>
>>I have stayed out of this debate, as I have not read the stories in
>>question ... and do not plan to. However, I have found the discusison
>>rather fascinating, if not a bit tedious (as it has taken over the
>>list) ... but now, when the question of IDIC has come up, I thought I
>>would put in my 2¢
>
>>If we are to follow the philosophy of IDIC, we must be willing to
>>accept *ALL* the posts that are submitted to the list, not just the
>>ones that are supportive and accepting.
>
>>Read what you want ... agree to dissagree, if you must ... but do not
>>say that someone should not post, because you do not care for the way
>>they do it (using Ascem Noone), or for what they have to say.
>
>
>You did get me wrong, T'Lin. I'm not claiming IDIC in the way that there
>should be no negative reactions. That would be stupid. Anybody has the
>right of hir own opinion. But there is a huge difference between a
>respectfully voiced disagrement and a flame.
>
Yes, you are quite correct, but to date (on this topic, at least) there have
been NO FLAMES here ... concidering the subject matter, this has been a fairly
civilized discussion.
>T'Maia was positive that she would be flamed if she posts certain stories.
But I wonder ... would xe be flamed, or would the 'subject matter' ... and if
it is the stories, not the author that are critisized and torn apart, it is
not
a flame ('Flames' are 'personal attacks, not critisism of ones work)
>Noone felt it neccessery to hide hir identity, Robin saw the need of create
>the Noone-possibility. All this wouldn't be neccessary if IDIC really rules
>here.
>
>Alone the fact that ppl. flame others (and I don't refere to a special case
>yet) shows that IDIC isn't living here. I can give critics, open opinions,
>differents POVs, a disagreement and I still can have in mind that the other
>has all rights for hir own own, different opinions like I have and thread
>this person that way. The flames I saw here over the last 1 1/2 year didn't
>show any respect for the oposite, they did hurt and they didn't except the
>others rights and opinions. The flamer often insisted that s/he was teh
>only person who had the right opinion. That's not IDIC. There were no
>acceptance of differences.
>
All very true, but we are human, after all ... we may aspire to live up to the
ideals of IDIC, but it is far too easy to make a reply in the heat of the
moment, and later regret ones words ... but of course, by then it is too late,
and they can not be taken back.
>I DO accept Alara's, Noone's and all the other objections against my story.
>I never said anything less then that. But I do not accept that at least a
>few of those opinions where built without knowing it. It's not IDIC to
>object against anything only after reading the header and the comments of
>others but without having an own look at it.
Yes, I see your point ... and that is why I have stayed out of the discussion
of the stories ... but I can also see why the subject matter alone could
encourage some to comment, even without reading them.
>For me IDIC does not mean that
>I have to agree with any way the diversity is shown but I have to grant it
>the right to exist and give it the honor of a attentive thought-over before
>I voice my own disagreement.
>
>Do you know "Leben und Leben lassen?"
>
>T'Len
Ja ... "Live and Let Live."
>:-]
T'Lin
T'Lin's FANFIC PAGE - http://www.geocities.com/tlin_s/
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I'm just not sure which one I prefer" (Les Sampou)