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Montreal's Terrible Judgment and PK Subban
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Mike
2017/05/25 9:49:072017/05/25
To:
Gerry
2017/05/25 10:51:152017/05/25
To:
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 9:49:07 AM UTC-4, Mike wrote:
> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
It's kind of funny to see a bit of hyperbolic bandwagon jumping going the other direction for a change.
Frankly, I do not think Marc Bergevin will EVER actually "regret" this trade. Lots of Habs fans might, and lots of us did the moment it was made. But I can't imagine Bergevin will ever feel like he made a mistake. He got the player he wanted, got rid of the player he wanted to get rid of, and I'm sure he'd tell you today that he's 100% confident he got the better player, the better person, the better fit to the team he wants to build.
Of course, it shows what a dolt he is. But that isn't going to change.
And for all that the Preds are on a great run, and Subban has some great underlying numbers, it's really not all about him. They'd probably be on this run with Weber too.
Subban has been hobbled by his back injury, he's not "fast skating" by any stretch these days, and really never was.
He's playing great D, and I find it hilarious whenever I read people reacting like that's something new, or that he somehow changed his game in response to the heartbreak of being traded out of Montreal. He's always been that good defensively. It's just a matter of where the media spotlight chooses to shine. In Montreal, they'd shine on a giveaway or the times when his risky moves failed. He still does that stuff. But now there's more attention on the good stuff. And most of them don't even realize yet that this is only a hobbled Subban playing well below his capabilities.
I hope Subban wins with the Preds, for his own sake as a great guy, and for the good of hockey in general in the sense that the Preds are a team which I feel plays a good style of hockey. Any hope of "revenge" on Bergevin is going to fall on deaf ears, however.
l8r,
Gerry
> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
It's kind of funny to see a bit of hyperbolic bandwagon jumping going the other direction for a change.
Frankly, I do not think Marc Bergevin will EVER actually "regret" this trade. Lots of Habs fans might, and lots of us did the moment it was made. But I can't imagine Bergevin will ever feel like he made a mistake. He got the player he wanted, got rid of the player he wanted to get rid of, and I'm sure he'd tell you today that he's 100% confident he got the better player, the better person, the better fit to the team he wants to build.
Of course, it shows what a dolt he is. But that isn't going to change.
And for all that the Preds are on a great run, and Subban has some great underlying numbers, it's really not all about him. They'd probably be on this run with Weber too.
Subban has been hobbled by his back injury, he's not "fast skating" by any stretch these days, and really never was.
He's playing great D, and I find it hilarious whenever I read people reacting like that's something new, or that he somehow changed his game in response to the heartbreak of being traded out of Montreal. He's always been that good defensively. It's just a matter of where the media spotlight chooses to shine. In Montreal, they'd shine on a giveaway or the times when his risky moves failed. He still does that stuff. But now there's more attention on the good stuff. And most of them don't even realize yet that this is only a hobbled Subban playing well below his capabilities.
I hope Subban wins with the Preds, for his own sake as a great guy, and for the good of hockey in general in the sense that the Preds are a team which I feel plays a good style of hockey. Any hope of "revenge" on Bergevin is going to fall on deaf ears, however.
l8r,
Gerry
Chuck
2017/05/25 11:00:172017/05/25
To:
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 9:49:07 AM UTC-4, Mike wrote:
> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
MB failed because he did little if anything to expand the team's depth. Weber for Subban, looking at the past season only, was a sideways move at best. Unfortunately the team had just too many support players who were past their best before dates aswell as being little if any threat to any of the core player's icetime. Without push from below, too many players were invisible too often and too long. Too many willing to accept MT's koolaid
> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
Chuck
2017/05/25 11:09:102017/05/25
To:
Gorgo
2017/05/25 11:24:502017/05/25
To:
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 10:49:07 AM UTC-3, Mike wrote:
> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
I disagree with this whole "I told you so" attitude of this article. I like Sube and hope he wins the cup but I also like Weber and what he brings to the Habs. I look at things this way. Will (can) the Preds win the cup without Sube? I truly think so. Face it, IMO Sube is the 3rd or maybe even 4th best Dman on that team. He is not the teams defensive kingpin. Can the Habs win without Weber? I think not, he's just too important and they don't have others good enough to fill his shoes. Switch them back to their respective teams and I still think Mtl would have lost and the Preds would still be where they are. Couple weeks ago some talking head on TSN 690 was discussing Sube and the Preds playoff run and if the Habs got stiffed in the trade. He said it best IMO, in that Sube played well this year but he didn't give Gashville a 9 million dollar season. Even in the playoffs he's been but one of 4 or 5 Dmen that are all playing well and he's clearly behind Josi and Ellis in the depth chart.
All said and done I'm happy for Sube, I'm pulling for Gashville but I'm also happy we have Weber. Actually, I wish we had them both.
> https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/montreals-terrible-judgment-exemplified-by-subbans-stellar-playoff-run
I disagree with this whole "I told you so" attitude of this article. I like Sube and hope he wins the cup but I also like Weber and what he brings to the Habs. I look at things this way. Will (can) the Preds win the cup without Sube? I truly think so. Face it, IMO Sube is the 3rd or maybe even 4th best Dman on that team. He is not the teams defensive kingpin. Can the Habs win without Weber? I think not, he's just too important and they don't have others good enough to fill his shoes. Switch them back to their respective teams and I still think Mtl would have lost and the Preds would still be where they are. Couple weeks ago some talking head on TSN 690 was discussing Sube and the Preds playoff run and if the Habs got stiffed in the trade. He said it best IMO, in that Sube played well this year but he didn't give Gashville a 9 million dollar season. Even in the playoffs he's been but one of 4 or 5 Dmen that are all playing well and he's clearly behind Josi and Ellis in the depth chart.
All said and done I'm happy for Sube, I'm pulling for Gashville but I'm also happy we have Weber. Actually, I wish we had them both.
Gerry
2017/05/25 12:00:042017/05/25
To:
Hmm, while I agree that I didn't really like the "I told you so" attitude in the article, I think from watching a lot of the Preds now, that Subban is indeed going to prove to be the best of their defense. I know some Preds fans are still a little reluctant to accept this, given their long-seated appreciation for Josi, and the recent uptick in Ellis' contribution. So it's not a uniformly accepted opinion yet.
They really do only have the 4, though... Weber and Irwin are both clearly so far below the top 4 that you can't go to a "4 *or 5*" statement. It's the 4.
And I also don't think there's a "depth chart" on the 4 right now. TOI is 25:56, 25:52, 25:34, 23:59. Subban is 2nd on that list, 4 seconds behind Josi. They're 11, 10, 10, 8 pts. I don't believe special teams utilization reveals any reason to rank them either. My impression is that Subban and Ekholm are used more against top opponents, and I've seen some of their impressive Corsi-like stats, but I'd imagine Josi and Ellis are doing fine and the coach is not afraid to match them against anybody either.
All in all, I don't think there is any mileage to be had in rating the other Nashville D above or behind Subban. Based on this playoff run.
On the regular season, I don't think Subban was as good, and they definitely had some struggles getting the pairings to function, it was perhaps even part of the reason that the team struggled a bit relative to expectations. Subban and Ekholm was a topic of concern for Preds fans for a good stretch of the season. Neither was as good as Josi or Ellis in the regular season. And for sure, Subban was nowhere near a $9M player.
But then, I've also seen Subban at his best, and I fully believe he's not close to being at his best right now, even in the playoffs. He's as good as the other Nashville D right now. But he's also playing a significant notch below the level I've seen him play at for the Habs in the past. I'm attributing this to the suspected injury factor, for now. (It's admittedly possible that Subban has just fallen off, however, and maybe he'll just never be that good again, who knows. OR that the injury is going to be chronic and he'll just never fully recover, either way).
So that's my basis for believing that he's actually better than Josi or Ellis. He's a little better than them defensively and physically right now. A little worse than them offensively. But when he gets back to full health, he'll be better than them in all categories.
All 4 are truly playing like kingpins right now, I wouldn't want to say one was 3rd or 4th best, nor that one was a kingpin and another wasn't.
Yet over the long haul, I still believe it will turn out that Subban is indeed the best, not just on his team, but perhaps in the entire league again, and indeed a $9M player. Nashville hasn't seen that Subban yet, unfortunately. We saw him, albeit sometimes with chains on. I don't think Josi or Ellis, as good as they are, will ever be in quite that elite category. Subban was once, and could be again, hopefully if he just gets healthy.
l8r,
Gerry
They really do only have the 4, though... Weber and Irwin are both clearly so far below the top 4 that you can't go to a "4 *or 5*" statement. It's the 4.
And I also don't think there's a "depth chart" on the 4 right now. TOI is 25:56, 25:52, 25:34, 23:59. Subban is 2nd on that list, 4 seconds behind Josi. They're 11, 10, 10, 8 pts. I don't believe special teams utilization reveals any reason to rank them either. My impression is that Subban and Ekholm are used more against top opponents, and I've seen some of their impressive Corsi-like stats, but I'd imagine Josi and Ellis are doing fine and the coach is not afraid to match them against anybody either.
All in all, I don't think there is any mileage to be had in rating the other Nashville D above or behind Subban. Based on this playoff run.
On the regular season, I don't think Subban was as good, and they definitely had some struggles getting the pairings to function, it was perhaps even part of the reason that the team struggled a bit relative to expectations. Subban and Ekholm was a topic of concern for Preds fans for a good stretch of the season. Neither was as good as Josi or Ellis in the regular season. And for sure, Subban was nowhere near a $9M player.
But then, I've also seen Subban at his best, and I fully believe he's not close to being at his best right now, even in the playoffs. He's as good as the other Nashville D right now. But he's also playing a significant notch below the level I've seen him play at for the Habs in the past. I'm attributing this to the suspected injury factor, for now. (It's admittedly possible that Subban has just fallen off, however, and maybe he'll just never be that good again, who knows. OR that the injury is going to be chronic and he'll just never fully recover, either way).
So that's my basis for believing that he's actually better than Josi or Ellis. He's a little better than them defensively and physically right now. A little worse than them offensively. But when he gets back to full health, he'll be better than them in all categories.
All 4 are truly playing like kingpins right now, I wouldn't want to say one was 3rd or 4th best, nor that one was a kingpin and another wasn't.
Yet over the long haul, I still believe it will turn out that Subban is indeed the best, not just on his team, but perhaps in the entire league again, and indeed a $9M player. Nashville hasn't seen that Subban yet, unfortunately. We saw him, albeit sometimes with chains on. I don't think Josi or Ellis, as good as they are, will ever be in quite that elite category. Subban was once, and could be again, hopefully if he just gets healthy.
l8r,
Gerry
gorgo...@gmail.com
2017/05/25 14:58:092017/05/25
To:
Sube still proves to be a high risk, high return player, more so than Josi and Ellis IMO. Then again, so is Ottawa's Karlsson and he's pretty good... I think. Perhaps with Mtl Sube was trying too hard, too often and thus was prone to mistakes. Now it looks like he's picking his spots more. I've always felt that there isn't a Dman in the world, save for Karlsson perhaps, that I'd want on the ice if it's late in the game and you need a goal.
Gerry
2017/05/25 15:57:372017/05/25
To:
Yeah, I don't even think he actually does pose a "high risk". That's part of the myth. He's a high return player, period.
Once in a while he makes a play that many hockey traditionalists think was unnecessarily complicated or risky, yes. The thing is, though, he's consciously *trying* to make that play, showing confidence and creativity. Whereas other players make *more* turnovers or miscues that actually weren't part of a conscious effort to be creative or anything. The other players are actually riskier and fumble their "safe" dump outs more often than Subban makes a complicated risky maneuver. But Subban gets more attention for 1 of his failures to execute a risky play than they do for all of their failures to execute simple plays put together.
Karlsson has come a long way too. He makes risky plays, and pulls them off. He makes risky plays and sometimes fails. But he definitely doesn't draw as much attention for the miscues as Subban does either.
l8r,
Gerry
Once in a while he makes a play that many hockey traditionalists think was unnecessarily complicated or risky, yes. The thing is, though, he's consciously *trying* to make that play, showing confidence and creativity. Whereas other players make *more* turnovers or miscues that actually weren't part of a conscious effort to be creative or anything. The other players are actually riskier and fumble their "safe" dump outs more often than Subban makes a complicated risky maneuver. But Subban gets more attention for 1 of his failures to execute a risky play than they do for all of their failures to execute simple plays put together.
Karlsson has come a long way too. He makes risky plays, and pulls them off. He makes risky plays and sometimes fails. But he definitely doesn't draw as much attention for the miscues as Subban does either.
l8r,
Gerry
Chuck
2017/05/25 16:07:542017/05/25
To:
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 2:58:09 PM UTC-4, gorgo...@gmail.com wrote:
> Sube still proves to be a high risk, high return player, more so than Josi and Ellis IMO. Then again, so is Ottawa's Karlsson and he's pretty good... I think. Perhaps with Mtl Sube was trying too hard, too often and thus was prone to mistakes. Now it looks like he's picking his spots more. I've always felt that there isn't a Dman in the world, save for Karlsson perhaps, that I'd want on the ice if it's late in the game and you need a goal.
I think MT's dump and chase system numbed all his players playmaking and positioning skills. When they moved the puck to teammates, it left the recipients with no room to do anything with it. Give any of them a clear lane to the net, most of them could muster a scoring chance. Close the lane, they were lost on what to do with it next, other then clear it into a corner. PK and Galchenyuk both became players who hung onto the puck too long
> Sube still proves to be a high risk, high return player, more so than Josi and Ellis IMO. Then again, so is Ottawa's Karlsson and he's pretty good... I think. Perhaps with Mtl Sube was trying too hard, too often and thus was prone to mistakes. Now it looks like he's picking his spots more. I've always felt that there isn't a Dman in the world, save for Karlsson perhaps, that I'd want on the ice if it's late in the game and you need a goal.
Chuck
2017/05/25 16:10:142017/05/25
To:
Jim Bauch
2017/05/25 17:54:292017/05/25
To:
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 7:51:15 AM UTC-7, Gerry wrote:
> And for all that the Preds are on a great run, and Subban has some great underlying numbers, it's really not all about him. They'd probably be on this run with Weber too.
>
Probably true. But you know that if Nashville had missed the playoffs, or crashed out in the first round, and the Habs advanced a round, you know we'd all be hearing about how this was a total vindication of The Trade.
> And for all that the Preds are on a great run, and Subban has some great underlying numbers, it's really not all about him. They'd probably be on this run with Weber too.
>
Hell, a lot of pundits pounced back in November when Weber was on an early-season tear and Subban was hurt, and declared that The Habs Won The Trade. So while I'm not going to make the argument myself, I will enjoy the irony of seeing the simple-minded, results-based talking point shoved back in their faces.
Jim
Gerry
2017/05/25 17:59:562017/05/25
To:
On Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 5:54:29 PM UTC-4, Jim Bauch wrote:
>
> Probably true. But you know that if Nashville had missed the playoffs,
> or crashed out in the first round, and the Habs advanced a round,
> you know we'd all be hearing about how this was a total vindication
> of The Trade.
That is sooo true. I never thought of it that way before. Ok, so those going over-the-top the other way just got more of a pass from me. :)
>
> Probably true. But you know that if Nashville had missed the playoffs,
> or crashed out in the first round, and the Habs advanced a round,
> you know we'd all be hearing about how this was a total vindication
> of The Trade.
l8r,
Gerry
Jim Bauch
2017/05/30 13:12:112017/05/30
To:
I gather there was a minor controversy over some comments John Scott made about Subban, which were recorded two years ago but just aired recently. Seems like no big deal to me -- the comments were made before Scott was traded to the Habs or even met Subban, were fairly innocuous, and Subban has brushed it off as no big deal.
But there's some other interesting remarks by Scott in this story:
http://www.tsn.ca/scott-subban-comments-were-outdated-1.765077
---
The now retired forward played one game with the Canadiens at the end of the 2015-16 season. Scott said he the feeling among players who made their way up from the AHL IceCaps to the Canadiens and back down was not that Subban was a distraction, but that the team's dressing room was uncomfortable to be in.
"All I heard from guys coming up and down was that that locker room was just really dysfunctional. It was quiet, it wasn't a fun place to play hockey. The guys weren't having fun. When you go into a locker room like that, it's just quiet. No one's talking, no one's building relationships and for the one game that I was there, I totally sensed that. And P.K. tried, (but) it's hard to be one guy and try to pick everybody up and he was hurt and the team was going through a tough time but I didn’t hear of anybody really trashing him. It was more of a Montreal's not really that fun to play in right now."
----
Obviously a need for grains of salt here -- Scott is a guy who probably has a well-deserved grudge against Habs' management. But it's an interesting perspective: that P.K. maybe didn't "fit in" to that locker room because he was the only guy trying to have fun in a miserable environment. And if true, what an astonishing decision to "fix" the problem by trading the one happy guy.
Jim
But there's some other interesting remarks by Scott in this story:
http://www.tsn.ca/scott-subban-comments-were-outdated-1.765077
---
The now retired forward played one game with the Canadiens at the end of the 2015-16 season. Scott said he the feeling among players who made their way up from the AHL IceCaps to the Canadiens and back down was not that Subban was a distraction, but that the team's dressing room was uncomfortable to be in.
"All I heard from guys coming up and down was that that locker room was just really dysfunctional. It was quiet, it wasn't a fun place to play hockey. The guys weren't having fun. When you go into a locker room like that, it's just quiet. No one's talking, no one's building relationships and for the one game that I was there, I totally sensed that. And P.K. tried, (but) it's hard to be one guy and try to pick everybody up and he was hurt and the team was going through a tough time but I didn’t hear of anybody really trashing him. It was more of a Montreal's not really that fun to play in right now."
----
Obviously a need for grains of salt here -- Scott is a guy who probably has a well-deserved grudge against Habs' management. But it's an interesting perspective: that P.K. maybe didn't "fit in" to that locker room because he was the only guy trying to have fun in a miserable environment. And if true, what an astonishing decision to "fix" the problem by trading the one happy guy.
Jim
Mike
2017/05/30 14:39:372017/05/30
To:
gut. The problem with Subban is that he is black. He plays like a black
athlete (in the minds of those in charge and those long term veterans on
the ice) and more damningly, he behaves like a black athlete. Nobody
will ever convince me that had PK Subban been BJ McGillicuddy, was white
and played identically to PK Subban that he never would have been
traded. Therrien is a well known bully and abuser of young players. Its
not hard to imagine that PK Subban added a dimension to the player that
Therrien likes to harass that resulted in things going to another level.
Gerry
2017/05/30 14:42:512017/05/30
To:
Not enough to go on by itself, of course. That was such a messed up season, especially at the end, that I don't really see how much else could be expected... a total disaster of a season and Scott was there for 1 game?
Was he up longer than the 1 game? Because Subban didn't play that game. Not too sure how often they actually were in the same room together? Hanley, Johnston, Pateryn, and Dietz were on D that game too. As Scott said, it was a sense he got from guys coming up and down, not from his own direct observation. A lot of those guys were up and down after Subban went out. But I can also imagine it's always hard for young guys up from the minors to feel comfortable with Therrien as a coach too.
But I can certainly imagine they have a fairly robotic type of "personality" in general as a team. That being said, if you have a room full of robots, and 1 playful jokester, I can easily imagine that 1 guy grating on the rest. Not every minute of every day, but often enough that adds up to an issue. And I can totally imagine Weber fitting in on the robot factory floor much better.
I wonder how much of that problem is plaguing Galchenyuk too. He seemed like a bit of a happy-go-lucky type at times. Nobody can compare to Subban in that regard, but Galchenyuk seems to have(/had) a bit of happiness in him too.
l8r,
Gerry
Was he up longer than the 1 game? Because Subban didn't play that game. Not too sure how often they actually were in the same room together? Hanley, Johnston, Pateryn, and Dietz were on D that game too. As Scott said, it was a sense he got from guys coming up and down, not from his own direct observation. A lot of those guys were up and down after Subban went out. But I can also imagine it's always hard for young guys up from the minors to feel comfortable with Therrien as a coach too.
But I can certainly imagine they have a fairly robotic type of "personality" in general as a team. That being said, if you have a room full of robots, and 1 playful jokester, I can easily imagine that 1 guy grating on the rest. Not every minute of every day, but often enough that adds up to an issue. And I can totally imagine Weber fitting in on the robot factory floor much better.
I wonder how much of that problem is plaguing Galchenyuk too. He seemed like a bit of a happy-go-lucky type at times. Nobody can compare to Subban in that regard, but Galchenyuk seems to have(/had) a bit of happiness in him too.
l8r,
Gerry
Jim Bauch
2017/05/30 15:00:032017/05/30
To:
Normally I would be content to leave such judgment calls about mood and demeanor and chemistry to the folks who live in that world. But nothing about Therrien or Bergevin gives me any confidence in their judgment in those respects.
And incidentally, wasn't Bergevin supposedly the wacky mad prankster in his playing days?
Jim
Gerry
2017/05/30 15:23:072017/05/30
To:
Indeed, Bergevin did have that reputation, which makes everything even weirder.
It would seem like they have added some guys who are known to have "emotion" of a different type, though, in Radulov and Shaw. Those guys seem to be wound pretty tight, more fiery than jovial? Or at least, Radulov used to seem temperamental, even if he has mellowed out now in his old age. So I doubt it's all just stoic robots anymore either.
Totally aside to all this, just thinking of Radulov reminded me of a peek I took the other day at the UFA list for this summer. There's a serious lack of upper end players in their prime. He might be the top forward available? Ought to make it tougher still to retain him.
l8r,
Gerry
It would seem like they have added some guys who are known to have "emotion" of a different type, though, in Radulov and Shaw. Those guys seem to be wound pretty tight, more fiery than jovial? Or at least, Radulov used to seem temperamental, even if he has mellowed out now in his old age. So I doubt it's all just stoic robots anymore either.
Totally aside to all this, just thinking of Radulov reminded me of a peek I took the other day at the UFA list for this summer. There's a serious lack of upper end players in their prime. He might be the top forward available? Ought to make it tougher still to retain him.
l8r,
Gerry
Mike
2017/05/31 12:57:532017/05/31
To:
the loss of Radulov. Throw in a gaggle of bottom pairing defencemen (cuz
you can never have too many defencemen apparently) and the loss of
Radulov is easily managed.
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