Deja Vu All Over Again
j.b...@comcast.net
From Dave Stubbs's report on the Philly game at habsinsideout.com:
"His 13th goal of the season and fourth in his last six games was the
outgrowth of some beautiful puck-control work by flu-weakened captain
Saku Koivu"
Jim
mike cornmeal
last year.
Marty
@pd7urf1no:
Does Koivu have the flu 4 months a year? Yeesh, get a damn flu shot.
But seriously, this is the 3rd season in a row he's gone into a funk for at
least one extended stretch. At some point it is time to stop repeating the
myth that "Koivu shows up for every game" and to start acknowledging the
reality that he's a streaky player now. Now, some very good players are
streaky. Damphousse was famous for being streaky. But the idea that Koivu's
one of the hardest working players on the ice every game (in any effective
way) is something I just haven't seen for a long time. Yes, sometimes he's
all over the place, and then other times for 10-20 game stretches he's much
more invisible than a typical #1 centre. I would find it hard to believe
that anyone who has watched the Habs the last few years could disagree with
this if they think about it.
Marty
j.b...@comcast.net
> I would find it hard to believe
> that anyone who has watched the Habs the last few years could disagree with
> this if they think about it.
Well, at the risk of being accused of not having thought about it, I
disagree. I see no evidence that Koivu is any more "streaky" than the
average player.
Jim
Gerry
> I would find it hard to believe
> that anyone who has watched the Habs the last few years could disagree with
> this if they think about it.
I disagree with it entirely. And to "think about it" one step
further, I suggest that you're confusing productivity with with hard
work. Yes, Koivu (as with most other non-superstar players) goes
through periods of greater and lesser productivity. But I think his
work ethic is beyond reproach, even during times when the puck is not
going in for him/his linemates. He is almost never "invisible". But
he _is_ a pass-first player, and he doesn't possess much scoring
ability of his own, he has (lately) played with one rather stone-
handed winger (Higgins) and another who basically embodies streakiness
(Ryder). And certainly nobody better before that. So yes, his
productivity is certainly susceptible to fluctuations. But that's
about it. If you think about it.
l8r,
Gerry
Marty
news:00bff19e-8f32-4ae1...@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com:
Umm, but is Koivu supposed to be an average player?
Marty
j.b...@comcast.net
I don't know what he's "supposed" to be according to the general
population.
I will say two things: first, it's my belief that "streakiness" is
highly exaggerated in the world of sports writing and commentary. I
think that "consistency" and "streakiness" are by and large labels
that we tend to assign to players who are experiencing the normal
variation of outcomes that probability theory would predict.
I don't deny that human physical and psychological characteristics
argue for a bit of "streakiness," but I think we're way too quick to
seize on every statisical pattern as having some "common sense"
explanation.
Second, I don't think that, to the extent that "consistency" and
"streakiness" are stable characteristics of a particular player,
there's little or no correlation to that player's overall inability.
In other words, I can believe that Koivu has an average endowment of
"consistency" does not mean I think he's an average player. Absent
convincing evidence to the contrary, I also will assert that Sidney
Crosby has an average endowment of "consistency." That hardly means I
think Crosby is an "average" player.
Jim
P.S. Marty, I had hoped that your next post in this thread was going
to acknowledge that posting about how you just can't imagine any
thinking person disagreeing with you is not a great way to start a
discussion. I know I was annoyed by that, and I think Gerry was too,
though I won't claim to speak for him. You don't need to resort to
such rhetorical devices; you're better than that.
Marty
news:795c3dfd-ed21-4b34...@w56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
I thought about it. I've seen lots of games where Koviu is a non-factor,
and I don't believe in those games he's working his ass off above and
beyond the average players. I mean, most players go out there and give a
solid effort. However, some are tired and worn down by times, so they
coast once in a while. Sometimes they feel energetic and are able to
really give they team a lift. Overall, they play mostly to their
abilities.
Now, when a really skilled player does the above, it is more noticable
than when a 3rd liner does it. A really good player getting on 2 points
in 10 games is noticable and hurtful to a team. A player who scores 10
points in 5 games is doing the type of things that wins games. And that
is the slot that Koivu fits in now. He's not a shutdown player or a
phyisical player, so generating offence matters and if he's not that
noticable for a string of games and not putting up points, then typically
turns it around and goes on a run, that's a streaky player. In fact, I
HOPE he's streaky, because if he isn't we're in trouble, because
currently he has 8 points in 19 games and is projected out to 58 points.
This team has no hope of making the play-offs if that is what we can
expect from him all year.
Marty
Marty
news:e5fc56ac-6faa-4373...@s12g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
>
> P.S. Marty, I had hoped that your next post in this thread was going
> to acknowledge that posting about how you just can't imagine any
> thinking person disagreeing with you is not a great way to start a
> discussion. I know I was annoyed by that, and I think Gerry was too,
> though I won't claim to speak for him. You don't need to resort to
> such rhetorical devices; you're better than that.
I am surprised that people think Koivu isn't streaky, if it is indeed
possible to label any player streaky. People call Ryder streaky, and no one
disagrees. Lots of top-end players around the league have a bit of a
streaky label to them. I was just pointing out that Koivu has now how very
extended scoring droughts 3 season's in a row now. I thought people would
agree this would qualify him for a streaky label. I guess I was wrong about
that. Agreement on this group is hard to come by.
Marty
Winkie
always productive. Effective in the sense that the puck does tend to go the
other way when he is on the ice. However is productivity has to be measured
in points and in that sense he is very streaky. He rarely has long
droughts but once in every 3 or four games he will figure in to a multiple
of goals and then nothing..point wise.
I have never denied his talent and in recent years I have said that I was
wrong about his heart. But he is not a chips are down ..the one guy we can
look to for leadership player and consistency in production never has his
name attached to it. He is night after night effective at taking the puck
down the ice and making a decent but not often rewarded offensive play
"Marty" <martyt...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A07CBD0B1A48ma...@127.0.0.1...
j.b...@comcast.net
> I am surprised that people think Koivu isn't streaky, if it is indeed
> possible to label any player streaky. People call Ryder streaky, and no one
> disagrees. Lots of top-end players around the league have a bit of a
> streaky label to them. I was just pointing out that Koivu has now how very
> extended scoring droughts 3 season's in a row now.
Well, you said a lot more than that he has "extended scoring
droughts." You criticized his work ethic, saying that "it is time to
stop repeating the
myth that 'Koivu shows up for every game' . . . . the idea that
Koivu's
one of the hardest working players on the ice every game (in any
effective
way) is something I just haven't seen for a long time."
Hard work and points don't always go together, as Winkie and Gerry
have both argued in this thread.
Having said that, Koivu's longest pointless streak this season is....
three games. That doesn't seem all that dire to me.
Jim
Marty
news:c227ab70-6d66-41ce...@c4g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
>
> Having said that, Koivu's longest pointless streak this season is....
> three games. That doesn't seem all that dire to me.
>
> Jim
>
>
Before tonite, 8 points in 19 games. Come on. That's a long stretch without
much productivity for his ice time. Losing streaks happen because too many
players were doing this lately.
As for working, I put his work ethic closer to average than most. However,
most players work fairly hard. There are few players who can stay in the
league and coast. I'm not saying Koivu's a coaster. But players like Begin,
Lapierre, Higgins, Kostopolous, Plekanec, Komisarek, Dandenault, Hamrlik
and a few other all hustle really well most shifts, and I disagree that
Koivu stand above them in work ethic. Skill, overall effectiveness, sure.
Now, tonite Koivu hustled like hell, and bang-o, two goals! It's not aways
that easy, but Koivu both looked great and scored. I hope we see more of
same for a while!
Marty
j.b...@comcast.net
> Before tonite, 8 points in 19 games. Come on. That's a long stretch without
> much productivity for his ice time. Losing streaks happen because too many
> players were doing this lately.
I agree. Koivu had a bad stretch. So did most of the team.
What's interesting is that I didn't see anyone suggest that we trade
Andrei Markov.
> As for working, I put his work ethic closer to average than most. However,
> most players work fairly hard. There are few players who can stay in the
> league and coast. I'm not saying Koivu's a coaster. But players like Begin,
> Lapierre, Higgins, Kostopolous, Plekanec, Komisarek, Dandenault, Hamrlik
> and a few other all hustle really well most shifts, and I disagree that
> Koivu stand above them in work ethic. Skill, overall effectiveness, sure.
I agree with you here for the most part. I think work ethic is
overrated. If making the NHL was just a matter of trying really
really hard, I would have been there, and so would you. In general,
I'd say the number of players who "take shifts off" is much less than
is commonly supposed.
> Now, tonite Koivu hustled like hell, and bang-o, two goals! It's not aways
> that easy, but Koivu both looked great and scored. I hope we see more of
> same for a while!
Here I disagree. I don't think that Koivu tried much harder tonight
than in other games. The goals are nice, and in the long run, they're
what matters, but I don't think Koivu's effort tonight is that
different from other nights.
Jim
crussellp
> Oddly I think I agree with both here. Koivu is always effective but not
> always productive. Effective in the sense that the puck does tend to go the
> other way when he is on the ice. However is productivity has to be measured
> in points and in that sense he is very streaky. He rarely has long
> droughts but once in every 3 or four games he will figure in to a multiple
> of goals and then nothing..point wise.
> I have never denied his talent and in recent years I have said that I was
> wrong about his heart. But he is not a chips are down ..the one guy we can
> look to for leadership player and consistency in production never has his
> name attached to it. He is night after night effective at taking the puck
>
> news:Xns9A07CBD0B1A48ma...@127.0.0.1...
>
> > Gerry <gerr...@hotmail.com> wrote in
MI5 Bump
A.J. Bassett
>
> I thought about it. I've seen lots of games where Koviu is a non-factor,
> and I don't believe in those games he's working his ass off above and
> beyond the average players.
Actuallly it's stuff like this that makes me believe the fans in
Montreal don't deserve Koivu.
Maybe he should be shipped off to a team where he'd be appreciated.
A.J.
Marty
news:0887ad70-520f-4f1c...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
> Here I disagree. I don't think that Koivu tried much harder tonight
> than in other games. The goals are nice, and in the long run, they're
> what matters, but I don't think Koivu's effort tonight is that
> different from other nights.
Well, I think he tried a little harder, in the sense that most players
probably don't go 100% almost every shift, every night. If they did, they
probably wouldn't last the season. But last night Koivu had several things
motivating him. One, the mounting personal critisism. Two, the (incorrect)
trade rumours. Three, the team's home ice losing streak. Four, apparently,
his folks were in the crowd. Finally, five, it was the Leafs, and perhaps
Montreal's starting to get the hint that losing to them constantly is
embarrassing. So all this little factors I think helped to motivate Koivu
to give what I'd call a "play-off" effort in a regular season game. It was
definately what was needed. On the other hand, I admit you don't
automatically get 2 goals just because you hustle a tiny bit more or bear
down a tiny bit more than normal, but it does help your chances.
Anyway, I'll finish my end of this little debate by stating that I don't
think Koivu should be traded, unless he wants it. I don't think he's
overpaid or that he shouldn't be the team captain. He's a veteran, he
elevates his game for the play-offs. I have no problem with him but I just
think he's not as good as his die-hard fans would suggest, nor as bad as
his critics would have us think. In some respects, he's a reflection of the
entire team.
Marty
Gerry
> Actuallly it's stuff like this that makes me believe the fans in
> Montreal don't deserve Koivu.
>
> Maybe he should be shipped off to a team where he'd be appreciated.
Bah, I wouldn't worry about the fans in Montreal. Let them spew
whatever drivel they like. In the end, I think Bob Gainey has spoken
to how he sees Koivu, and I trust that by and large he sees things the
right way, and so long as that appreciative atmosphere pervades the
team itself, then the fans can do whatever they please, it won't
matter. Koivu has been around long enough to know how those things
work.
And even if the majority of Habs fans are baaaaa-ing along in
different directions with every stray gust of the winds of fancy,
there are still probably more residual appreciative ones in Montreal
than he'd find in most other cities. The sheer volume of Habs fans
assures him of as much appreciation in Montreal as he'd get most
anywhere else. Even amidst the lunacy.
It's too defeatist to wish for players to go elsewhere for their own
sakes, IMHO. (Although I totally admit to feeling the temptation to
succumb to that sentiment many times myself).
l8r,
Gerry