Cromartie
Joe Blaub
bust.
badlands420
"Joe Blaub" <alv...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1188105717.1...@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> I'm sorry to say this, but all signs point toward Cromartie being a
> bust.
Even though this is supposed to be his senior year in college?
Raymond Feist
"badlands420" <bu...@hole.com> wrote:
Hey, never let facts get in the way of an opinion. Isn't the
conventional wisdom that DBs take longer to mature than anyone on a team
this side of a QB?
Best, R.E.F.
--
Never attribute to malice what can
satisfactorily be explained away by stupidity.
Joe Blaub
> "Joe Blaub" <alvi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Well, I certainly hope his poor play due to inexperience. However, he
frequently misses tackles and looks clumsy in doing so. Perhaps if I
saw some sign of things to come (anything that could be put in a
highlight film that shows his defensive skills), I could overlook the
bad things.
Then again, maybe he just had a bad game today.
badlands420
> Hey, never let facts get in the way of an opinion. Isn't the
> conventional wisdom that DBs take longer to mature than anyone on a team
> this side of a QB?
Cornerback is the most difficult and complex position on the field, and the
one with the least margin for error. If you can be a competent cornerback by
your third year in the NFL, you're a pretty damn good player. If you can be
a competent cornerback as a rookie, you're most likely a hall of famer.
badlands420
> Well, I certainly hope his poor play due to inexperience. However, he
> frequently misses tackles and looks clumsy in doing so. Perhaps if I
> saw some sign of things to come (anything that could be put in a
> highlight film that shows his defensive skills), I could overlook the
> bad things.
I thought he flashed his (significant) ability on a number of occasions last
year.
Shawn
@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
> I'm sorry to say this, but all signs point toward Cromartie being a
> bust.
>
Huh?!?!
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Pouta
> I'm sorry to say this, but all signs point toward Cromartie being a
> bust.
as a starting CB, yes. as a dime CB and PR/KR, he's serviceable.
he was a reach as a 1st rounder, and everyone knew that going in.
Jammer's been the bust. this is his 6th year, drafted FIFTH OVERALL,
and he still plays like a neanderthal. geez....
Shawn
@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
The "FIFTH OVERALL" seems to be your biggest issue....should I show you
about a hundred players throughout history drafted 5th or higher that
were ACTUAL "busts"?
I think you just never played the game before. At least never tried to
play CB. Every CB that ever played any game ever has been burned. THe
good ones comeback and forget that burn and play well after it. Jammer
seems to do this. Cromartie is up and comming and noone (with an actual
clue) expects him to be there already. If Jammer had played his 1st six
years on a team with a strong pass rush and safeties, you'ld be here
wishing he was on our team. He played with a pass rush the last two
years and....TADA...he's been very good. Now if the Safeties would help,
he'd be damn good.
Of course almost everyone here has been saying this for about six years
now, so I won't expect you to ever truely understand, but it was worth a
try. <shrug>
Pouta
> and....TADA...he's been very good.
oh really ? "very good" players make it to the
Pro Bowl. how many trips to Hawaii has Joker
taken in the past 5 years ?
right.
badlands420
> taken in the past 5 years ?
You'd have to ask his travel agent.
Raymond Feist
"badlands420" <bu...@hole.com> wrote:
See, what the mental giant you're talking to hasn't grasped is Jammer
didn't walk up and say, "Hey, I'm the 5th best player in the draft!"
That was management. So, what was he supposed to do, say, "Aw, shucks,
fellas, I'm really only worth about half that much . . . "? But Pouta
keeps hammering at Jammer like somehow he's a criminal for not meeting
management's expectations and fails to realize that along the way he's
become a good corner, which is why teams are throwing away from him more
often than not.
Savage Lizard
<ray...@nospam.bittersea.com> wrote:
>See, what the mental giant you're talking to hasn't grasped is Jammer
>didn't walk up and say, "Hey, I'm the 5th best player in the draft!"
>That was management. So, what was he supposed to do, say, "Aw, shucks,
>fellas, I'm really only worth about half that much . . . "? But Pouta
>keeps hammering at Jammer like somehow he's a criminal for not meeting
>management's expectations and fails to realize that along the way he's
>become a good corner, which is why teams are throwing away from him more
>often than not.
The Jammer hating idiots have grown beyond tiresome. He could make 10
good plays, and they won't notice. But if he gets beat once, the "see
he sucks" stuff starts up. I guess DBs aren't supposed to ever get
beat, despite the fact that the receiver knows exactly where he's
going, and the DB can only react.
Savage Lizard
Shawn
@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
well, only a small % of NFL players get to go to the Pro-bowl. I didn't
say Jammer was in the top 2%. I can think of a lot of great players that
don't go to the probowl...we have a punter on our team that hasn't gone,
I guess he just sucks too, and the year LT had 100 catches, he was no
good either...great logic there Dick Tracy. I'd say you're still a few
clues short.
Pouta
I never said that. even Champ Bailey gets beat.
it's HOW jammer gets beat, and how OFTEN he gets beat
that annoys the living shit out of most of us.
but, I forget -- this NG is dominated by shiny happy people,
who are accomplished apologists. same people who
thought Ralph Friedgen & Dave Adolph were good coaches.
Raymond Feist
Savage Lizard <ge...@gern.net> wrote:
Ya, like Champ Bailey, Rod Woodson, Mel Blount, Willie Brown, Mel
Renfro, etc. never got burned once in their entire careers. No Hall of
Fame receiver ever got past those guys. Not once in their careers did
they get toasted like Elvis Patterson. Nope.
That's why they call the position The Island, because you're out there
all by yourself. I played safety and linebacker, so you know I wasn't a
very fast safety. If I had been fast enough to play corner, I'd have
gone out for wide receiver, because it's an easier gig. As you said,
the receiver knows where he's going, and the corner has to play catch-up
on every play.
Kurgan Gringioni
>
> The Jammer hating idiots have grown beyond tiresome. He could make 10
> good plays, and they won't notice. But if he gets beat once, the "see
> he sucks" stuff starts up.
I can't speak for others, but the thing about him that bothers me
about Jammer is very specific.
It's that thing where he doesn't look back for the ball and opts to
throw his hands up in the receiver's face instead.
Jammer is a very physical player. He's a really good tackler. But he's
got a problem. If you're the opposing QB, and you've got Jammer
covering one of your guys on the outside and you need a lot of yards,
it's an attractive option. All you have to do is look the safety off
and if the safety bites, you throw it up for grabs to the guy Jammer
is covering. Since Jammer doesn't look back for the ball, the worst
thing that can happen is an incompletion. The next best thing is
Jammer throws his hands up in the receiver's face and gets a
interference call. The best thing is the receiver beats him and
catches the ball.
I don't understand how Jammer can't have developed the skill of
looking back for the ball on those long plays and reacting
accordingly. How can that be?
Chuck D.
!!!GO BOLTS!!!
enof
I love it!
I lived in Cowboys country back then
rarely and barely saw Charger games
enof
"Raymond Feist" wrote ...
> Savage Lizard wrote:
Shawn
@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com:
No, you have a conniption EVERY TIME Jammer gets beat and you act as if
it is a constant, yet I posted how the biggest names of DBs got burned
on an average even more then Jammer before. I posted who we played and
how that WR did against Jammer, then I looked at how those same Randy
Moss's and Terrell Owens' did against all the other DB's and Jammer was
burned a lot less then most and some of them were the biggest names in
DBs that went to Pro Bowls. I wish I could find that again, it was too
much work to do again and if you are too blind to see it, then it's your
own loss.
Chuck D.
", yet I posted how the biggest names of DBs got burned on an average
even more then Jammer before. I posted who we played and how that WR did
against Jammer, then I looked at how those same Randy Moss's and Terrell
Owens' did against all the other DB's and Jammer was burned a lot less
then most and some of them were the biggest names in DBs that went to
Pro Bowls. I wish I could find that again, it was too much work to do
again and if you are too blind to see it, then it's your own loss."
I remember that post Shawn, no need to fret if a Jammer-hater doesn't
believe you. That was an awesome job you did, very detailed. I almost
wish you still had it, but please, for your own sanity, don't bother w/
writing it out again. Unless of course, you REALLY feel the need to do
it again. ;)
!!!GO BOLTS!!!
ScottW
How many times have we seen a DB looking back for the ball
as he trails a WR and then the WR throws on the brakes, the
DB crashes into him and penalty flags fly?
I have no idea how a DB can man up under todays rules and do anything
but prevent the receiver from catching the deep ball and tackling him
for
limited gain on the short ball. If he gets lucky and jumps the short
route
he might get a pick or in a zone...but man to man on the outside as
Jammer
often is, I'm not sure I want him giving up the man to play the ball.
ScottW
Raymond Feist
ScottW <Scot...@hotmail.com> wrote:
And, we have no idea what the regular season packages are going to look
like this year, with a new defensive coaching staff. We won't get a
hint of what those are going to be, how they're going to work, until the
Bears roll into town.
Kurgan Gringioni
ScottW
wrote:
> In article <1188235956.960033.223...@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
They better look better than they've looked so far or this season is
gonna
be a flashback to air coryell....
My concern for the loss of Donnie and the new LB coach with no
3-4 experience has not been calmed by these preseason games.
Still the comeback win against Arizona was fun to watch...
for a preseason game.
> We won't get a
> hint of what those are going to be, how they're going to work, until the
> Bears roll into town.
Grossman contnues to be erratic while Griese looks calm and
controlled in stark contrast.
ScottW
gjoh...@gmail.com
Since we are watching pre-season games, with the team playing a
vanilla defense, opinions at this point don't count much.
Shawn
@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
> How many times have we seen a DB looking back for the ball
> as he trails a WR and then the WR throws on the brakes, the
> DB crashes into him and penalty flags fly?
>
> I have no idea how a DB can man up under todays rules and do anything
> but prevent the receiver from catching the deep ball and tackling him
> for
> limited gain on the short ball. If he gets lucky and jumps the short
> route
> he might get a pick or in a zone...but man to man on the outside as
> Jammer
> often is, I'm not sure I want him giving up the man to play the ball.
>
> ScottW
>
Excellent point.
Shawn
news:1188241264.6...@x35g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
Maybe seeing #56 coming at him might make his hands sweat. <g>
Kurgan Gringioni
> ScottW <Scott...@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1188235956.960033.223080
> @m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>
> > How many times have we seen a DB looking back for the ball
> > as he trails a WR and then the WR throws on the brakes, the
> > DB crashes into him and penalty flags fly?
>
> > I have no idea how a DB can man up under todays rules and do anything
> > but prevent the receiver from catching the deep ball and tackling him
> > for
> > limited gain on the short ball. If he gets lucky and jumps the short
> > route
> > he might get a pick or in a zone...but man to man on the outside as
> > Jammer
> > often is, I'm not sure I want him giving up the man to play the ball.
>
> > ScottW
>
> Excellent point.
Except that's not Jammer's problem.
The malady I'm referring to is when he's in a position to make the
play but can't because he's looking at the receiver.
ScottW
Taking one's eyes off the receiver can be asking for trouble.
I see more DBs staying right on them until they see hands
go up to make a catch and they stick their hands right in.
Turning to look for the ball prematurely can be disastrous.
ScottW
- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Chuck D.
"How many times have we seen a DB looking back for the ball as he trails
a WR and then the WR throws on the brakes, the DB crashes into him and
penalty flags fly?"
It's called Incidental Contact, as long as the DB is playing the ball...
Hell... The Officials might even call Offensive PI in your scenario.
Which is not what Pouta & Kurgan are talking about. Jammer, except
recently, had always played the WR, not the ball. Lately... Well, let's
just say I'm anticipating big things from him this year & beyond.
!!!GO BOLTS!!!
Kurgan Gringioni
A good DB reads the eyes.
Jammer's problem was that when he knew the ball was coming, he'd throw
his hands up in the receiver's face instead of turning around to play
the ball.
He did show a few glimpses of getting out of that really, really bad
habit last year, but we'll see.
Sometime pollyanna Chuck D. will even back me up on this.
PBDepot
It was more then just a few glimpses. While you're dead on about
Jammer's problems with not looking for the ball, that really went away
for the most part last season. Jammer had an exceptional year in '06,
and I expect him to do the same again this time around, no doubt about
it in my mind for even a second.
There's no real cause for concern here, and I'm not sure why you're
even stressing on it. Pouta I can understand, cause he has a bias
towards the man, but any self respecting Chargers fan knows that
Quentin played exceptionally well last season. And any worries about
him reverting to his old form are long and gone by this point.
Clint
lack of
pass rush early on.
But now the Chargers have the #1 pass rush & still thier entire
secondary gets beat
waaaaaay to often. Including fuckin' reche Caldwell beating Jammer when
the play
cant get any bigger for the Chargers.
I like the fact that he's a big physical player.. but move his dumb-ass
to SS to replace
hart or McCree & lets take our lumps w/ Cromartie awhile so he can get
up to speed.
-Clint
Pouta
> To be honest.. I always thought Jammer was getting
> the bad end due to lack of pass rush early on.
>
> But now the Chargers have the #1 pass rush & still
> thier entire secondary gets beat waaaaaay to often.
> Including fuckin' reche Caldwell beating Jammer when
> the play cant get any bigger for the Chargers.
>
> I like the fact that he's a big physical player.. but
> move his dumb-ass to SS to replace hart or McCree
> & lets take our lumps w/ Cromartie awhile so he can
> get up to speed.
>
> -Clint
truer words have never been spoken.
therefore Clint, be prepared to get flamed by the
Jammer lovers/apologists on here...
Shawn
@news.suddenlink.net:
hasn't this been said enough? Hasn't it been said that EVERY DB gets
beat. To many of you think, just because he is a top 5 pick, that he
should never get beat and that he should INT every passs ever thrown.
DBs do other things besides get INTs. and they all get beat. As I have
pointed out with stats and not just basic hoopla, bigger names then
Jammer (Pro-Bowlers) get beat sometimes more often then Jammer by the
exact same WRs.
Now let it go. If you hate him, then hate him and keep to your quiet
minority self.
Raymond Feist
Shawn <slamb...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
It's never going to change, I guess. Look, one thing people keep
wanting to ignore is that the Chargers scored a lot last year, so a lot
of teams were playing catch-up and throwing a lot. I'll leave it to the
stat-freaks to run and see how many passes were thrown against the
Chargers in the 2nd half and especially the 4th quarter, but it is
probably among the highest in the league. Irrespective of how many
times they secondary gets "burned way too often," the simple question
is, "how many games did they lose last year because the secondary got
'burned?'" You want to hang both loses on the secondary, go ahead, but
if you do, then you've got to also give them some props for the fourteen
games won.
Shawn
news:raymond-66213D...@johnf2.biosci.ohio-state.edu:
Excellent point(s). The Raiders were among the leagues best passing D's.
Some think it is just that they are THAT good, others say it is because
they sucked so bad, teams would get a quick lead then just run the ball
and work the clock and didn't need to through passes. Since no passes
are being thrown, thier DBs didn't get "burned". <shrug>
Pouta
no, meaningless points.
REF defended Ryan Leaf right up until his very last day wearing a
Chargers uniform. REF is a handler for the Spanii. A "rah-rah" fan.
Great type to have in the stands, but useless with respect to
providing objective analysis.
PBDepot
I haven't noticed that. He may speak along company lines sometimes,
but a biased PR shill he ain't.
Speaking of providing objective analysis.... the old "Jammer sucks"
line isn't exactly that either. I haven't seen one objective analysis
of his play last year that was negative. (And no, schpeeling former
concerns about him doesn't count.)
Shawn
@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com:
What does defending Ryan Leaf have to due with anything?
The "rah, rah" stuff (as I pointed out in another thread) was those of
you that "rah, rah" against Jammer. Yes, he gets burned from time to
time (name any CB ever who didn't) and he gets a few too many penalties.
But he does cover well enough to force QBs to look another way and he is
excelent at helping stop the run. Those last two are things that many of
the "Big Names" don't do. Deon Sanders was known as someone who was
scared to tackle.
The points REF Made are very good. As I pointed out, the Raiders
statisticly had one of the best pass D's (#4 I think it was) because
other teams don't need to through the ball. Against us, the other teams
are trailing or it is at least close enough that the other team must
keep trying to score. The Raiders games were usually over by half time
and the other team was just working the clock.