Ainge making progress...
Michael
I hope he gets it cleaned up and comes back. I liked the way he
looked. Raw, but big upside. Perhaps he can get back to football now.
Papa Carl
"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:a0c89fb0-937f-4a9a...@cu4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
> http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/New-York-Jets-QB-Erik-Ainge-says-he-was-a-really-bad-drug-addict-032911
>
> I hope he gets it cleaned up and comes back. I liked the way he
> looked. Raw, but big upside. Perhaps he can get back to football now.
With bi-polar disorder it is perhaps not a good place for him to be. I hope
he thinks about his health and long term future first. For him, football
has to be a distant second priority. I hope he makes it.
Michael
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:a0c89fb0-937f-4a9a...@cu4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/New-York-Jets-QB-Erik-Ainge-says-h...
>
> > I hope he gets it cleaned up and comes back. I liked the way he
> > looked. Raw, but big upside. Perhaps he can get back to football now.
>
> With bi-polar disorder it is perhaps not a good place for him to be. I hope
> he thinks about his health and long term future first. For him, football
> has to be a distant second priority. I hope he makes it.
bipolar is not a death sentence. i read that you can get excellent
results with the meds they have today. depends on the person and the
particularites of their condition. or so i have read.
Papa Carl
Those meds come with some serious side effects....Lithium and Depakote for
the most part...with others often used in conjunction....he needs to get
really stable first and I just don't think the up and down world of pro
football is a good place for someone early in treatment.....it's not a death
sentence, but it is a biologically driven disease and is often marked with
decompensations that need to be dealt with. Alonzo Spellman would be one
recent player troubled with stuff like this. The end results for football
players struggling with a mental illness have not been good.
Tutor
> http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/New-York-Jets-QB-Erik-Ainge-says-h...
>
> I hope he gets it cleaned up and comes back. I liked the way he
> looked. Raw, but big upside. Perhaps he can get back to football now.
Sorry for the double post. Didn't see this threads was started. Here
is the Cimini ESPN article on the same subject:
What ever happened to Erik Ainge? He was a fifth-round pick of the
Jets in 2008, spent two years carrying a clipboard and, suddenly, he
was gone. He didn't report to training camp last July, with no
explanation from the team. He reportedly had entered drug rehab ...
and disappeared. He missed the entire season.
Well, I caught up with Ainge recently and, in a series of interviews,
he gave a candid account of what he calls is "personal war" -- drug
addiction and his fight to get his life back. He said his clean date
is July 17, meaning he has been clean and sober since then.
In several conversations with Ainge, I found him to be extremely open
and remorseful. He realizes he messed up, ruining a lot of
relationships and perhaps his football career, and I think he
genuinely wants to make things right and straighten out his life.
Here's an except from his first-person account:
I'm a drug addict. I was in denial for a long time, but that's who I
am. My addiction is with the hardest of hard drugs -- heroin, cocaine
and alcohol. During my days of using, I was a really bad drug addict.
I would've made Charlie Sheen look like Miss Daisy.
I always thought of myself as a good kid that liked to have fun. We
use the term "rationalization" in therapy. I would rationalize my drug
use, and make it seem a lot more normal than it was. But it wasn't,
because I was using a lot of drugs at a young age.
Michael
>
> news:a0c89fb0-937f-4a9a...@cu4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>
> >http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/New-York-Jets-QB-Erik-Ainge-says-h...
>
> > I hope he gets it cleaned up and comes back. I liked the way he
> > looked. Raw, but big upside. Perhaps he can get back to football now.
>
> With bi-polar disorder it is perhaps not a good place for him to be. I hope
> he thinks about his health and long term future first. For him, football
> has to be a distant second priority. I hope he makes it.
papa... one other thing to consider. i am positive that there were
people that have been miss diagnosed with things like bi-polar at the
same time that they are fighting a substanse abuse. a lot of things
that booze and drugs due to you mimmic the effects of things like bi-
polar. i'm not disputing his doctors, but i am always a tad bit
skeptical about mental illness being diagnosed along with drug or
booze addiction. lets keep in mind, ainge made it through grade
school, high school and college all the way to the pros with NO help.
Now he has help. I dont see why he wont be able to continue even if
he actually has bi-polar. Also... There are several kinds of bi-
polar. Some being the type with long periods of ups where the person
does wild stuff like spending, drugs and all manner of chance taking,
followed by long periods of serious depression. Others have the same
length of periods but with much less intensity. Then there is the bi-
polar that has swings that dont last as long. One person is not like
the other, and Ainge may not be that bad off. Some people with bi-
polar are functional without lithium. Anti-Depresants alone can help
in some cases. Again... Let him stay clean for a long time and than
get evaluated. You know what booze and drugs to the nervous system.
Even the best Psch on the planet would have a hard time making an air
tight diagnosis. I bet he plays again and with help, is able to do it
without booze. Hard, but not impossible.
Papa Carl
The most common comorbidity of issues is bi-polar disorder and a substance
disorder. In many cases it is the use of a depressant drug to get back down
again after a manic episode. Other times it may be use of stimulant drugs
to prolong a manic episode. The difficulty is that during a manic period
the individual often feels invincible and is very resistant to any
suggestion that something could be wrong. The disease itself is an up and
down cycle usually...but not always. He has been in treatment long enough
now, and with good enough doctors to figure out what is wrong with him.
Yes, bi-polar disorder exists in various forms...like Bi-Polar I and
Bi-Polar II and then with a lot of qualifiers. If you are really interested
you can look it up in The DSM IV Manual. It isn't so difficult that it
can't be followed and understood. He is in the age category where the
disease usually presents itself in full bloom. A lot of typical cases do
not get recognized as such during adolesence and then become evident in
early adulthood. You are also right that he needs to be clean for a period
of time to be certain about everything...especially with the array of drugs
he alluded to. However, he has been in treatment for 8 months, and that
should have gotten him to a point where they more fully understand what is
wrong with him. Did any of the articles indicate where he was being
treated? 21 years ago when I left coaching I went in to my second career
which was in behavioral heath. I had been taking courses and securing a
second MA level degree over a period of time. I had also taken a night job
after football season working in a crisis center. Then I made the switch
and that is what I did since then. I had the experience of working with a
lot of young people with dual diagnosis issues...substance abuse /
dependence and mental illness. It is a very hard road to walk for them. I
certainly wish him well...and for all those who I'm sure will be
judging...the bi-polar issues definitely foster substance use and abuse.
Papa Carl
"Tutor" <dcat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1b5ee03c-3db6-44d6...@x8g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
______________________________________________________________________
Doesn't this sort of stuff make you wonder how he got through high school
and college with nobody asking what could be happening? I just don't
believe there weren't any signs of it, if he could play it probably got
overlooked. Very sad.
Michael
no question that biologial mental illness and mental trauma leads a
lot of people to "self medicate". that is basic. i am not disputing
that he may have bi-polar. i am saying two things here. bi-polar and
substance abuse is so commonly linked, that medical professionals go
off half cocked. i know it for a fact. a guy i know with a booze
problem got miss diagnosed with bi-polar. two years after he started
taking drugs for b-polar and was clean from booze, another dr.
evlauated him and told him he did not have bi-polar but had been
suffering from damage to his nervous system from booze. it just looked
like bi-polar. they took him off his lithium and there were no sings
of bi-polar. i also know a woman who is bi-polar. she takes meds and
works in a high pressure business job. years go, she had all manner
of problems in her life, but since she got diagnosed, all is under
control. why not ainge too ??? again... if the guy got through life
playing ball up to now, he can play again and be better for it. i
dont agree that the stimulation of a competitive career WONT be better
for him than basket weaving. it depends on the paticularites of his
condition.
Papa Carl
"John C TX" <johnc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c97e6cfc-75f6-46bf...@p16g2000vbo.googlegroups.com...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>>.and for all those who I'm sure will be
>> judging...the bi-polar issues definitely foster substance use and abuse.
>
> well?
I was referring to the responses I would expect from others posting. There
are definite links between various behavioral issues and substance abuse.
For example, the incidence of clinical depression in people self described
as alcoholics is exponentially higher than in the general population.
People use alcohol and drugs because they work, they solve a problem for
them even if in the long term it makes things worse. So, those who are
depressed will often find a temporary solution in alcohol or some other
drug, and then the use of that substance becomes a problem compounding
things. One of the biggest problems our culture has is not accepting the
fact that addiction is a disease and can be treated as such. In the process
of doing that they would also treat a lot of other very treatable situations
and save lives, money and relationships.
Papa Carl
This is where you lose people...you go from playing Pro Football to basket
weaving...come on...to your other point...a LOT of bi-polar diagnoses are
probably way off base...it is popular these days :-)
Papa Carl
X-No-Archive: Yes
__________________________
>
> Doesn't this sort of stuff make you wonder how he got through high school
> and college with nobody asking what could be happening? I just don't
> believe there weren't any signs of it, if he could play it probably got
> overlooked. Very sad.
Dave, Dexter Manley got through OSU & received a degree while he was
illiterate. Auburn players are talking about bring paid for sacks.
Take all the money in Div I (hoop & college football) & share it
equally & this crap will slow down. I can see that where Alabama &
Texas share the $ with Rice & Navy. I can also see the day where my
hair is my eyes.
_____________________________________________
Probably about 30 years ago or so I was standing on the field of a pro team
during practice as the guest of one of the coaches. I was talking with the
defensive coordinator and when I said something about how good some of the
guys looked in reaction drills his comment was "A lot of expensive cattle
here....top grade beef." That is how a lot of it works out....they are
commodities being paid to do a job and not people, and I'm sure a lot of
players are aware of this and can handle it...but it also is a very
dangerous place for others.
Michael
yeah, it was an asshole remark, but just making a point. he may very
well be able to play on the big stage even if he does have real
bipolar. to a pro ball player, not beign on the field is virtual
basket weaving.
>to your other point...a LOT of bi-polar diagnoses are
> probably way off base...it is popular these days :-)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
again... psych not my area, but it seems like some diagnosis and psych
drugs these days are just in fassion. i suppose better than the dark
ages 30-50 years ago or so when witch doctors were at work on psych
cases.
Michael
> "John C TX" <johnctxj...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:ad3b1eb0-1a73-4ba2...@z3g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
i think the same can be said for a lot of other occupations. i have
zero experience with sports, but extensive experience in business. in
business, if a person does not perform, the superiors ask that the
body be left outside of the office. a lot of times companies prefer
not to fire execs/reps. especially if there are non compete issues
involved. if you shit can a guy, it makes it hard to hold them to any
non commit that they might have signed. they just make things
uncomfotable for them until they leave.
Papa Carl
IMHO...and afteer working inside a psych hospital...a lot of guys who get a
psych diagnosis and "help" should have gone to jail, prison and done some
serious time, but in so many cases they get a pass because someone, somehow
gets them a diagnosis and they are of the right "type" to skate on what
others may wind up doing time for. I think there are a lot of mentally ill
people in prison, but I do not think every criminal does what they do
because they are mentally ill. I think a lot of psychiatrists and other
practitioners tend to want to have a reason why someone does what they do
and even turns to drugs. In the cultural mindset it is easy to do that when
they are dealing with a person from an extremely deprived, and often violent
environment. It is harder for them to come up with a reason when they are
working with a kid that has had it all...or appears to have. This stuff is
all an outgrowth of the "free will" notions and they don't want to admit
that some stuff just happens or that someone is a victim of their genetics
or in the case of athletes and other "special" kids they get too much given
to them and are given too many passes. Life is very often quite difficult
and it is not always meant to be fun...try and sell that to some folks.
Papa Carl
So at least in football they have the balls to fire the guy? What you
describe is passive / aggressive behavior...a corner stone of the NEW
American.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
i'd gather that the mental health field is part science and part
craft. too many shades of gray for absolutes or cook book measures.
Michael
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
yep... passive agressive. on tap. though, my personal disgust goes
to the empty suit. the slob that contributes little and has wormed
his/her way into the heart of another useless slob that is in a
position to sustain them. though, i suppose that is a very old
story. those types will be with us always... like bad weather.
Papa Carl
Same patient two different psychiatrists often means two different
diagnoses....or different days when the patient presents...it is not a hard
science
Papa Carl
I love it..useless top dog hires useless slob...to make lots of money with
no product involved....great schemes.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
it happens all the time. since i tend to hold on to jobs for a long
time, I have only had three jobs since leaving college. all told, 24
years between those three jobs. i have met a lot of true
professionals that have unselfish dedication to the organizations
mission and bottom line. i have also met a bunch of people that are
selfish, immature and personally corrupt. They need adulation and
narcissistic supply far more than they need money. These types know
full well that they are incompetent and destructive. Because they are
not legitimate, they dare not expose themselves on equal terms. They
work hard at building a network of equally inept and or lasy ass-
kissers and hanger's on who also realize that they are not productive
and need to play a game for the benifit of the top asshole. They take
advantage of every single person that puts in an honest day. One
asshole like this can hold up an entire organization. It happens all
too often. I despise dead weight.
MZ
It is a hard science. It's just in its infancy. We really don't know
much about it. In the future, people will probably look at our level
of understanding and strategies of treatment the way we look at
bloodletting now.
Papa Carl
"MZ" <for...@mdz.no-ip.org> wrote in message
news:b31cac3e-0655-4916...@v31g2000vbs.googlegroups.com...
Mark...my reference is to the current system of diagnosing something. DSM IV
and how it gets used is not hard science. I completely agree that in the
future it will be. Also, in the case of depression...I personally think it
is a crime that so many suffer from it...there is enough science there that
puts it in the category of high blood pressure...nobody should die from it.
This stuff goes untreated and that is a crime. You are 100% correct...in
the future..but right now...this culture does not even recognize parity of
behavioral health issues. Somebody finally asks for help with a serious
alcohol addiction and his insurance company gives him three days of
treatment. IF...a big IF we used the tools available it would be a lot more
scientific...most treatment centers don't even test for steroids..not even
when all of the signs are there. I agree with you...it is in it's
infancy..but a lot of what we do have available does not get used.
MZ
We can't let the insurance companies be the arbiter of good and bad
medical policy. Their goals run counter to that a lot of the time. I
know what you meant though. I just don't think we should make
distinctions like "hard science" or, as Michael was putting it,
"biological" mental issues. It summons dualism, which is a crappy
road to go down. I think a better description is that some diagnosis
and treatment are very post hoc. Lots of research money goes into
trying to fix that, but like I said, we're really in the infancy of
our understanding of mental health and cognitive function in general.
Science can, and often does, solve a lot of these issues, but it will
take time.
Papa Carl
All of contemporary mental health or if you will behavioral heath is
diagnosed using the DSM IV R Manual. It is a five axis diagnosis pattern.
Axis I is biologically driven diseases, like depression, schizophrenia,
bi-polar disorder, and addictions, Axis II is acquired disorders like
personality disorders and also mental retardation...being a person so
afflicted CAN learn but not in a time frame that allows them to function
(personally I have always taken exception to that placement) Axis III is
physical problems that influence the function of the patient. Axis IV is the
social function of the individual and Axis V is a Gross Assessment of
Function....the very "science" of the system does in fact emphasize
biological issues. You are right, it will take time but even more
importantly it will take a populace and people in a position to drive it
that want it to happen. That does not exist at the moment and in fact, we
are experiencing a backlash against what I believe you and I would want to
see. As for what started this discussion, I think a lot of personality
disorders get called Bi-polar disorder by convenience and because the
clinician doing the diagnostic work know that will get treatment and the
real issue will often not. If it is not a good idea for someone with a
kidney transplant to be involved in contact sports and we can understand
that...why isn't it not understandable that someone with a serious mental
disorder not be involved in aggression based, highly volatile and emotional
activities? We just don't let people get what they need to be healthy. I
LOVE shellfish...dream about clams on the halfshell or raw oysters..but I
can't eat them...with two organ transplants that would be pure
follishness...I also can't have my beloved grapefruit in the morning because
it interacts with immunosupressants...all understood....but we sometimes
seem to think it is OK to subject a recovering alcoholic to a lot of social
drinking or a person dealing with mental illness with situations that
compound the stress, not help it. We have a long way to go.
Michael
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > Science can, and often does, solve a lot of these issues, but it will
> > take time.
>
> They better hurry up.
>
> :)
>
> You make a good point about insurers. I can't remember when it was
> but 15 or so years ago they just decide to cut stays in psych
> facilities by 50%. Where was the science in that?
jets fans did not want to miss a full season so they lobbied for
shorter stays ???
MZ
It's all biological. Mental health issues -- every one of them --
reside in the body. Just because we don't presently understand the
neuronal/chemical/endocrine/etc mechanism underlying a particular
disorder doesn't mean it's not biological. It just means that's we're
too stupid right now to be able to properly diagnose and treat it (or
sometimes even categorize it, which is perhaps the main purpose of the
DSM). I think it's a big mistake to attempt to categorize disorders
in this way -- nowadays, the implication is sometimes that some are
"real" and the others aren't. The DSM is historically a very flawed
reference... it's a story about how little we know.
Michael
<SNIP>
Mark & Papa...
I'm ignorant about how to use the word "biological" in the case of
mental illness. If you take an illness like bi-polar or scitzofreneia
for instance. It is fairly well accepted that those illnesses are not
as a result immediate environmental influences. I've always thought
that was what a "biological" mental illness was. The brain as an
organ itself is not normal without cause from any influence outside of
the body itself.
Then for instance... Take PTSD. A person suffers a serious trauma and
winds up with a mental illness. This is not "biological" in origin.
Hence, it is not considered a "biological" illness in a strict sense.
But... Then again... Any behavior or mood is a result of a chemical/
electrical/material function inside the brain. In the case of
prolonged trauma like a guy gets at the Hanoi Hilton... The brain
itself changes over time... Hence... Moods and behaviors change and
continue even after the removal of the traumatic stimulus... Although
not strictly "biological" in origin, this is still a "biological"
illness, no ??? The brain itself has still changed as a result of
prolonged stimulus.
Papa Carl
It is what we have and without it there is The Middle Ages and it's all bad
behavior or deamons....what would you suggest until this breakthrough
happens?
Papa Carl
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>> Science can, and often does, solve a lot of these issues, but it will
>> take time.
>
> They better hurry up.
>
> :)
>
> You make a good point about insurers. I can't remember when it was
> but 15 or so years ago they just decide to cut stays in psych
> facilities by 50%. Where was the science in that?
There is not a lot of science in any American medicine when it comes to
adequacy of treatment and time involved...it's all cost analsysis and what
an insurance exec determines. Before my two transplants I was in a hospital
for two months..getting slowly worse while they fought to keep me alive. Of
course I complained and wanted to go home....even if just to die. They told
me I had to hang on and they needed to keep me there. Then the very next
day a guy comes in, wearing a suit, and aske me for my wife's phone number
so she can come pick me up. The insurance company told them if I was that
sick forget it. I got sent home that afternoon, got a whole lot sicker very
quickly, had a visiting nurse and wound up in the ICU four days
later...costing them a WHOLE bunch more. Great business decisions. I can
not stomach the buffoons who tout the wonderful system we have...they have
never been sick.
MZ
Your last paragraph nails it. If changes that influence behavior
aren't occurring in the brain, then where ARE they occurring? [this
is sort of a trick question, because there actually are influences
outside the brain (think hormonal...) that can result in behavioral or
cognitive changes...but still "biological"] PTSD absolutely takes
root in a change in nervous system function. Just because it doesn't
necessarily come from physical trauma to the brain, viruses, etc
doesn't make it any less "biological."
I understand the nomenclature that many folks use, and what you guys
mean in particular. I just think it's bad terminology that gives rise
to even worse conclusions, and I think some of those had started to
crop up in this discussion, which is why I said something.