Double Cheaters!!
Antonio Varblespunk
reported the league is looking into the incident to determine if
Alosi and the Jets' inactive players were instructed to station
themselves on the extreme edges of the sideline to inhibit Carroll
from using that area to cover a punt.
As you can see in the still shot of the video below, Alosi and
some inactive Jets players stood in a military-style phalanx,
foot to foot, with their toes right up against the boundary.
Alosi is stationed as close to the corner of the sideline box
as allowable. That doesn't look like a coincidence."
http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/23160/jets-deliver-strong-statement-on-sal-alosi
Tripgate is only in the initial stages....
Glenn Greenstein
>
> Tripgate is only in the initial stages....
My God, you people will reach for anything. There was nothing illeagal
about where the Jet players were standing and if that fool was runing
where he was supposed to be running, Alosi doesn't have the chance to
make a jackass out of himself. We are not talking about a guy trying
to walk a tight rope here, he was a goo 2 to 3 yards out of bounds.
Antonio Varblespunk
reported the league is looking into the incident to determine if
Alosi and the Jets' inactive players were instructed to station
themselves on the extreme edges of the sideline to inhibit Carroll
from using that area to cover a punt.
As you can see in the still shot of the video below, Alosi and
some inactive Jets players stood in a military-style phalanx,
foot to foot, with their toes right up against the boundary.
Alosi is stationed as close to the corner of the sideline box
as allowable. That doesn't look like a coincidence."
In article <a1789c70-8a68-4f3f...@s9g2000vby.googlegroups.com>
Glenn Greenstein <lex...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 14, 4:37=A0am, Antonio Varblespunk <a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > "The NFL will not add to the sanctions, but ESPN's Chris Mortensen
> > reported the league is looking into the incident to determine if
>There was nothing illeagal
> about where the Jet players were standing and if that fool was runing
> where he was supposed to be running, Alosi doesn't have the chance to
> make a jackass out of himself. We are not talking about a guy trying
> to walk a tight rope here, he was a goo 2 to 3 yards out of bounds.
You do know the rules about going out of bounds, don't you?
Don't you?
AT
Deadmeat
He was blocked out of bounds, which happens quite a bit on punts.
That's why the refs will allow the player a little time to get back in.
John Vamp
Here's a post from Beiselbub© in the Pats2 newsgroup:
"Blocking the gunner out of bounds is the goal of coverage--they use
a
double jamb and try to force him off the field. From the rule book:
"During a kick from scrimmage, only the end men, as eligible
receivers
on the line of scrimmage at the time of the snap, are permitted to go
beyond the line before the ball is kicked."
If the gunner runs out of bounds the gunner can't be the first player
to touch the ball. If the return team blocks the gunners out of
bounds
they succeed in neutralizing the only players who by rule can start
running at the snap. (Everyone else must wait until the ball is
kicked.) So the Jets are lining the sideline to create further
obstacles for the gunner--by design. It's intentional.
It wasn't an accident they were lined up toe-to-toe, as close to the
sideline as they could get. Ryan claims he coaches them to do the
opposite, to stay away from the sideline. If he coaches that, why
don't they listen? Alosi was the fall guy. He was doing exactly what
Ryan instructed, and so were the four guys next to him. (Ryan will
give him a raise next year, say...$25,000.)
If the Pats did this it would be wall-to-wall coverage on ESPN"
---
Do you disagree with any of this, Glenn?
John Vamp
Turns out it *is* illegal for the Jets' players to be where they
were. That's a spot, apparently, reserved for coaches and players who
are going into the game, not inactive players.
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/news/story?id=5922926
Clearly, the Jets committed this illegal act intentionally for the
purpose of affecting the play on the field.
Now, when a team commits an illegal (not by US law, obviously, but by
league rules) act for the purpose of gaining a direct advantage on the
field (specifically done by a coach, not a player, who might commit a
holding infraction, etc.), what penalty should that team receive?
papa.carl44
"John Vamp" <jvamp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d16156af-b3d9-416c...@c2g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...
http://sports.espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/news/story?id=5922926
John, That is interesting....it will be argued about and discussed...and
denied a lot. I have never seen guys randomly standing that way. My
opinion is....the HC sets the culture or in some way allows it to develop, I
don't like that kind of thing, but it is and has always been a part of what
goes on, OMHO. Thanks for posting this. Papa Carl
Glenn Greenstein
> "The NFL will not add to the sanctions, but ESPN's Chris Mortensen
> reported the league is looking into the incident to determine if
> themselves on the extreme edges of the sideline to inhibit Carroll
> from using that area to cover a punt.
>
> As you can see in the still shot of the video below, Alosi and
> some inactive Jets players stood in a military-style phalanx,
> foot to foot, with their toes right up against the boundary.
> Alosi is stationed as close to the corner of the sideline box
> as allowable. That doesn't look like a coincidence."
>
>
> Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Dec 14, 4:37=A0am, Antonio Varblespunk <a...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > "The NFL will not add to the sanctions, but ESPN's Chris Mortensen
> > > reported the league is looking into the incident to determine if
> >There was nothing illeagal
> > about where the Jet players were standing and if that fool was runing
> > where he was supposed to be running, Alosi doesn't have the chance to
> > make a jackass out of himself. We are not talking about a guy trying
> > to walk a tight rope here, he was a goo 2 to 3 yards out of bounds.
>
> You do know the rules about going out of bounds, don't you?
> Don't you?
>
> AT
What difference does the rule make, he was running up the side line
out of bounds for about 20 yards. He had ample opportunity to get back
on the field of play. He was the one cheating if anyone was.
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dude, he was making no atempt to get back in bounds.
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, but I still don't see what the Jets did that was not legal other
than the asshole Alosi trying to trip the guy.
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sorry, I must have missed the part where it said doing that breaks
league rules. It does say that is the coaches box but it doesn't say
players are not allowed to stand there.
John Vamp
Look at this diagram: http://www.bostonsportsmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/nfl-bench-area.png
You see the area designated "Coaches and Situation Substitution
Players Only"? This rules out guys on the practice squad or who are
not active for that game. The guys Alosi ordered over there were not
allowed to be there.
It's a small point, to be sure. But so what? They put guys there
that were not allowed to be there. Against the rules.
Deadmeat
I don't know about that. I know there was a previous penalty before
that for the same hing. I don't know if it happened on that play.
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
Oh come on. He was running straight down the field out of bounds in
order to avoid blockers. If a blocker engages him there they get
flagged for hitting out of bounds. I can understand getting blocked
out of bounds but you can't run the rest of the way down field there
because you were.
This in no way defends what Alosi did, I think he should be fired, but
don't tell me the Fins gunner wasn't cheating.
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
John, nobody in the media has said what the Jets did was against the
rules, as a matter of fact, Mark Schleretz on ESPN said the Jets
didn't break any rules by having them stand there just this morning.
Beiselbub©
Is Illlegal Procedure cheating? Is a False Start cheating? Is Too
Many Men on the Field cheating? Is Holding cheating? These are rules,
rules that have penalties associated with them. Plays like that are
in the rule book because they happen; they're part of the game.
Players try to get away with holding, and more often do than not. Are
they all "cheaters" in your mind (except when the Jets do it)?
Running out of bounds used to be legal, until Steve Tasker of the
Bills did it TOO WELL, opposing coaches complained and the League made
it punishable by 15 yards. It's called the Tasker Rule.
The likely outcome of this is the Rules Committee will look at this in
the offseason--building walls that is--and decide whether to make it a
"point of emphasis" or actually change the rules. (Hopefully it will
become known as the Jets Rule.) But let's not pretend that what
coaches and players do on the sideline to OBSTRUCT play is in ANY
CONCEIVABLE WAY LEGAL. Obstructing play on the field--that isn't in
the rulebook--and it isn't part of the game.
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
WTF are you taking about. Define cheating for me. Could it be doing
something that breaks the rules? Could it be doing something that give
you an unfair advantage? Isn't that what holding is or does tackling a
defensive player that is about to hit your QB seem like a fair thing
to you, Does having an extra man on the field seem fair? Does a player
engaging a defender before the snap seem fair? Does taking video in a
place that you are not allowed to seem fair? Does a member of a team
tripping a player running down fiel seem fair?
All the above are acts of cheating with varying penalties for doing
so, that is why you have refs, to make sure the teams don't cheat. Now
I'm not saying every player intentionally does these things but don't
try to tell me Caroll wasn't running out of bounds becuase he couldn't
turn back into the field of play, he was doing it so he wouldn't get
hit. Did you notice as soon as he hit the ground that two Jet
defenders were on him instantly, they were shadowing him on the
sideline while he was out of bounds, the only way he would have gotten
down field was to stay out of bounds.
Beiselbub©
Glenn, speaking of classic rants. (That one rivals something out of
Wall Street, or maybe I'm thinking of Zoolander? Yeah, that's it,
defintely Ben Stiller.) You can't compare holding and running out of
bounds with doing something to SUBVERT the rules of the game.
*Organizing* and using players *off the field* to intentionally
influence players *on the field* is the very definition of cheating.
The rest is just part of the game. Think about it. Please...Glenn, I
know you're smarter than this.
Beiselbub©
>
> John, nobody in the media has said what the Jets did was against the
> rules, as a matter of fact, Mark Schleretz on ESPN said the Jets
> didn't break any rules by having them stand there just this morning.
And Glenn, like I SAID PREVIOUSLY, running out of bounds to avoid the
press blocking wasn't illegal UNTIL the League changed the rules to
make it illegal. The Tasker Rule.
Do you think making a wall to prevent a player who may be BLOCKED off
the field from returning represents fair play? Do you want to teach
your kids that technique? Are you PROUD of the Jets for doing it, or
are you feeling defensive, and a little ashamed?
(Asked and answered.)
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
Forget it, to me if you break a rule it is cheating, plain and simple.
I mean do you think that guy who holds on purpose and doesn't get
flagged thinks what he did was fair? Holding isn't part of an NFL game
or at least it isn't supposed to be. ymmv.
Glenn Greenstein
it's a questionable act and there probably will be clarifcation on it
now that Alosi showed what some idiot could do while standing there
but if the gunner is doing what he is supposed to be doing (running in
the field of play) does this human wall ever come into play? He would
be 2 or 3 yards away from the closest player.
Ron
Cheating? LMAO. Guess you don't pay much attention to the gunners on
punts.
Ron
> Dude, he was making no atempt to get back in bounds.
And how did you come to that conclusion? The JEST player was ALSO out
of bounds.
rt
Please re-consider the reasonableness of what you're saying. There is
only ONE reason Carroll was OB-- because he was pushed there by the
Jets doubleteam, as he was attempting to cover the punt. It is absurd
to assume once he is pushed OB then he should immediately re-enter the
field exactly perpendicular to where he was pushed out! It is the
side judge's discretion as to how far the gunner can run OB before
being flagged for unsportsmanlike as Reshad (not Carroll) was
penalized for earlier in that game.
And why are Jets (and other teams) coached to do this to runners?
Other than to generally impede the advance of the fast guys, it is
also to the returning team's advantage in case of a muffed or fumbled
punt- the first player who touches this ball may NOT have been out of
bounds at any point in that play.
Coaching the push OB is fine. Coaching the push OB coupled with a
wall of players is pushing the limits of sportsmanship and fair play
(and in fact, is cheating when the wall is manned with inactive
players). Having a wall member trip is beyond the pale (which to your
credit, no one in here seems to disagree with).
Anyway, I think this comes from Rex. His fat ass was right next to
the wall, Rex seems contemptuous of good behavior, and Westhoff does
not have a history of being dirty. Plus, as the ESPN 1000 interview
yesterday proves, Mike isn't that smart. Awesome ST coach, for sure,
but not the guy you want holding a microphone.
rt
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
I pretty much agree that Ryan knew what was going on and Alosi is
taking the fall. Kind of surprised they are readdressing the
punishment.
Glenn Greenstein
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
I know the rule, I think he broke it from what I could see. He was
running straight down the sideline to avoid engaging the blockers.
Deadmeat
Glenn, you keep ignoring the fact that the gunner was pushed or blocked
out of bounds because it doesn't suit your argument.
Everyone else seems to acknowledge that point.
John Vamp
So that NFL diagram doesn't mean anything? Players are actually
allowed to be wherever they want? Granted, these rules are probably
violated all the time and aren't really enforced, but there are
regulations about it.
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
And what your not acknowledging is he wasn't making an attempt to get
back in the field of play. He wasn't blocked into Alosi knee, he was
running past him while out of bounds and away from the blockers. The
camera must have followed him for 10 yards before he ws tripped. Ya
think he could have started running towards the field by then?
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
said the Jets are not the only team that does this but they are the
only team that has an idiot standing there trying to trip someone as
they run by,
Deadmeat
Ok, he was pushed 3 yards past the sideline and when he was hit he WAS
heading to the field of play, not straight down the sideline. Watch
every other punt return in the league, you might notice a trend.
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
If he was heading to the field of play, he wouldn't have been close
enough to Alosi to trip him.
John Vamp
Two things: (1) I'm sure that most players (and ex-players) have no
idea about what all the lines on the sidelines mean. That's because
that rule isn't likely enforced very much. Doesn't mean it isn't a
rule, though. (2) I'm also sure that other teams do this. That said,
other teams - as various people like Ditka and Jimmy Johnson said
publicly - also did videotaping. Yet that cost the Pats $750k and a
1st round pick. Using the "everyone does it" defense is no different
than Pats fans using that defense in 'spygate'.
Ron
He was blocked out of bounds. Why do you think that the JEST player
was also out of bounds????
Glenn Greenstein
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well maybe if a memo went out a short time beofre last week specificly
stating you are not allowed to form a human wall along the area
designated for coaches, the Jets probably are looking at a similar
fine and penalty.
Ron
If you can't tell from this video that he was indeed trying to get
back in bounds, then I don't know what to say.
Shit, he was blocked so far out of bounds that he is behind the white
line!
John Vamp
> > Two things: (1) I'm sure that most players (and ex-players) have no
> > idea about what all the lines on the sidelines mean. That's because
> > that rule isn't likely enforced very much. Doesn't mean it isn't a
> > rule, though. (2) I'm also sure that other teams do this. That said,
> > other teams - as various people like Ditka and Jimmy Johnson said
> > publicly - also did videotaping. Yet that cost the Pats $750k and a
> > 1st round pick. Using the "everyone does it" defense is no different
> > than Pats fans using that defense in 'spygate'.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Well maybe if a memo went out a short time beofre last week specificly
> stating you are not allowed to form a human wall along the area
> designated for coaches, the Jets probably are looking at a similar
> fine and penalty.
LOL.