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How the Jet CB's will be used...

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Michael

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Jan 4, 2011, 12:11:26 PM1/4/11
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In the last NE game, the jets best defensive assets, revis and
cromartie were pretty much rendered useless. how can you keep them in
the game against what NE was doing ??? the colts are probably going
to try to do somthing like that as well. obviously they dont have the
variety of pass catchers that ne does, but that seems to be the trend
against the jets defense. to take the cb's out of the game with
fodder and get miss matches against lesser qualified db's especially
in the center of the field

papa.carl44

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Jan 4, 2011, 3:48:38 PM1/4/11
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"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:1fae0d74-33a4-4302...@w17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

You "invert" the defense, which puts safeties outside or under and corners
deep or inside OR you go into a man scheme and let Revis play who is
perceived as the most dangerous threat no matter where he goes.


Harlan Lachman

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Jan 4, 2011, 4:17:39 PM1/4/11
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In article
<1fae0d74-33a4-4302...@w17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
Michael <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote:

Michael, this makes no sense.

Revis and Cromartie stopped NE from throwing to two players.

Two defenders by themselves taking two receivers out of the game makes
it easier for the rest of the D to guard the other 3 or 4 potential
receivers.

The fact that our Pass Rush was non-existent, our S inept , and our LB
not great at defending against the pass caused a blow-out, which was
exacerbated by a hellacious offensive game plan and execution, providing
the Pats no threat or pressure to score.

Based on recent play of our S and back-up CB, I would employ Cole and
Coleman back with Cro and Revis on every down and have all of them play
man. I would probably try Lowery at S and rotate Poole in. I might play
Eric Smith if I wanted to give up a penalty or a big play.

It might work against the Colts. It could work against the Pats too but
unless our offense can outscore the other teams'...

harlan

Harlan Lachman

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Jan 4, 2011, 4:20:38 PM1/4/11
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In article <df6dnZpe-eY6Gr7Q...@giganews.com>,
"papa.carl44" <papad...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:

I disagree. Two DBs at most can take two receivers out of the game.
Brady would invert too and thow to the guys not being covered by our
Safeties and LB.

As posted elsewhere in this thread, I think a new approach is needed.
Cole and Coleman have almost looked like NFL players, especially when
not confused by Rex' tricksy defenses. I would start all four of them
in man (with Revis and Cro rotating to the two toughest receivers). I
would even give Lowery some play at safety.

Make the Colts run the ball against our front 7.

h

papa.carl44

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Jan 4, 2011, 5:20:25 PM1/4/11
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"Harlan Lachman" <har...@eeivt.com> wrote in message
news:harlan-505861....@news60.forteinc.com...

An invert is not something a person does...it's a defensive scheme, Brady
can't "invert"...he's a QB. What it means is where a given position will be
placed....and it can wind up looking like four across which sometimes it is
called and then the key is to do it so Brady or Peyton do not know who is
who, who is covering deep and who is going short...either way, the nickle
back and LB's have to figure into the coverage scheme...that is the only way
you take away the TE.


papa.carl44

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Jan 4, 2011, 5:20:59 PM1/4/11
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"Harlan Lachman" <har...@eeivt.com> wrote in message
news:harlan-8CFC8C....@news60.forteinc.com...

Bingo...no pass rush...and I don't care what scheme you play..it's over.


Michael

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Jan 4, 2011, 6:37:32 PM1/4/11
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On Jan 4, 4:17 pm, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
> In article
> <1fae0d74-33a4-4302-9aab-a7b81ec6e...@w17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,

>
>  Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > In the last NE game, the jets best defensive assets, revis and
> > cromartie were pretty much rendered useless.  how can you keep them in
> > the game against what NE was doing ???  the colts are probably going
> > to try to do somthing like that as well.  obviously they dont have the
> > variety of pass catchers that ne does, but that seems to be the trend
> > against the jets defense.  to take the cb's out of the game with
> > fodder and get miss matches against lesser qualified db's especially
> > in the center of the field
>
> Michael, this makes no sense.
>
> Revis and Cromartie stopped NE from throwing to two players.

it did not stop ne from completing passes at will. i'm pointing out
that the jets have two "shut down" cb's and it was good for nothing as
far as stopping the pass.

> Two defenders by themselves taking two receivers out of the game makes
> it easier for the rest of the D to guard the other 3 or 4 potential
> receivers.
>
> The fact that our Pass Rush was non-existent, our S inept , and our LB
> not great at defending against the pass caused a blow-out, which was
> exacerbated by a hellacious offensive game plan and execution, providing
> the Pats no threat or pressure to score.
>
> Based on recent play of our S and back-up CB, I would employ Cole and
> Coleman back with Cro and Revis on every down and have all of them play
> man. I would probably try Lowery at S and rotate Poole in. I might play
> Eric Smith if I wanted to give up a penalty or a big play.
>
> It might work against the Colts. It could work against the Pats too but
> unless our offense can outscore the other teams'...
>
> harlan

harlan... the jets did put brady on the floor a few times. it looked
to me that the coverage was never adequate. the pats appeared to have
a miss-match on every play with slot and seam guys getting down the
field. i would consider six db's. four across in man, one shallow
zone, one deep zone.

cd

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Jan 4, 2011, 6:57:38 PM1/4/11
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> zone, one deep zone.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Last year as I recall, Greene and Lowery got hurt and then everything
fell apart. The Jets do have more db's this year but are weaker, way
weaker at safety.

Grinch

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Jan 4, 2011, 9:42:48 PM1/4/11
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On Jan 4, 6:37 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> On Jan 4, 4:17 pm, Harlan Lachman <har...@eeivt.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article
> > <1fae0d74-33a4-4302-9aab-a7b81ec6e...@w17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com>,
>
> >  Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > > In the last NE game, the jets best defensive assets, revis and
> > > cromartie were pretty much rendered useless.  how can you keep them in
> > > the game against what NE was doing ???  the colts are probably going
> > > to try to do somthing like that as well.  obviously they dont have the
> > > variety of pass catchers that ne does, but that seems to be the trend
> > > against the jets defense.  to take the cb's out of the game with
> > > fodder and get miss matches against lesser qualified db's especially
> > > in the center of the field
>
> > Michael, this makes no sense.
>
> > Revis and Cromartie stopped NE from throwing to two players.
>
> it did not stop ne from completing passes at will.  i'm pointing out
> that the jets have two "shut down" cb's and it was good for nothing as
> far as stopping the pass.

Don't overestimate the how "shut down" those CBs are.

Brady torched Cromartie by throwing right at him. If you remember,
they even ran an isolation play, like in basketball, where they sent
Branch all alone straight against Cromartie, nobody else near, Branch
ran a short comeback, Cromartie trying to cover both sides of him at
once fell down on his ass, and Branch scooted down the sideline for a
good 30 yards.

No more complicated than that. As both Brady and Cutler said after
their games, the Jets are leaving their DBs exposed all alone in man
coverage and are getting torched with mismatches. The other guys have
solved Rex's blitzes and without a pass rush DBs all alone in man
coverage -- not to mention LBs! --- get killed. QED.

You could bring Apollo down from Olympus to play "shut down" CB, leave
him exposed alone in man coverage long enough against a QB facing no
pass rush, and he'll get torched. Except they won't have to throw
against Apollo because they'll get Jason Taylor alone trying to chug
along after a RB flying straight downfield first. When the big blitz
doesn't get to the QB, mismatches against isolated pass defenders
kill.

Rex has to either get the blitz hitting the QB again or learn that
"the threat can be stronger than the execution" and give the blitz a
break.

When the Steelers won the SB they blitzed more than any other team
during the regular season. Then in the playoffs they stopped, faked
it, and dropped their guys back to bust the anti-blitz reactions the
Os got duped into. It worked great.

If Rex is cunning he could do the same, condition the rest of the
league into thinking all he knows how to do is blitz and play man --
and he's sure done that! -- then at the key time screw 'em over.

But I doubt we'll ever see anything like that from him, he sure seems
to be daddy's boy. Daddy was known for a lot of great things as a D
coach, but "patient subtle cunning" wasn't one of them.


> > Two defenders by themselves taking two receivers out of the game makes
> > it easier for the rest of the D to guard the other 3 or 4 potential
> > receivers.
>
> > The fact that our Pass Rush was non-existent, our S inept , and our LB
> > not great at defending against the pass caused a blow-out, which was
> > exacerbated by a hellacious offensive game plan and execution, providing
> > the Pats no threat or pressure to score.
>
> > Based on recent play of our S and back-up CB, I would employ Cole and
> > Coleman back with Cro and Revis on every down and have all of them play
> > man. I would probably try Lowery at S and rotate Poole in. I might play
> > Eric Smith if I wanted to give up a penalty or a big play.
>
> > It might work against the Colts. It could work against the Pats too but
> > unless our offense can outscore the other teams'...
>
> > harlan
>
> harlan... the jets did put brady on the floor a few times.  it looked
> to me that the coverage was never adequate.  the pats appeared to have
> a miss-match on every play with slot and seam guys getting down the
> field.  i would consider six db's.  four across in man, one shallow

Michael

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Jan 4, 2011, 10:30:30 PM1/4/11
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against chicago's martz style, i agree pressure to force a short end
to the rout is key. also noted was your point about cromartie giving
ground and getting caught playing soft. what i'm thinking about at
the moment is how you can run a defense that gives any chance at all
of a victory over NE should the jets get past the colts. IMHO... and
i cant get this one out of my head... what would give the best chance
is going to a radical base defense like some of the ones I have seen
used to quell a pardee style four man spread run and shoot. the
current ne offense reminds me of a cross between that pardee offense
and the walsh short west coast offense. in my very amature opinion,
they should do what i have seen work to perfection against that run
and shoot four man spread set. use a single LB as a spy... say david
harris on the rb, a single OLB that can rush or drop and six db's.
man coverage on for wr's with your best man gusy and two extra db's...
one deep and one shallow zone. of course you can vary this depending
on down, distance and the set the offense has in, but i am convinced
this is the thing to do against ne if they get there.

Harlan Lachman

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Jan 4, 2011, 11:28:05 PM1/4/11
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In article
<cb50a825-0739-4433...@j25g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
cd <cd...@verizon.net> wrote:

Hence, my suggestion to do without them.

h

papa.carl44

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Jan 5, 2011, 12:17:55 AM1/5/11
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"Grinch" <oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:9bbb8ad3-9a64-4546...@c2g2000yqc.googlegroups.com...

AGAIN GREAT ANALYSIS.....it seems like people are wanting to toast the D
backs, safeties...and it isn't really their fault, IMHO....there is only so
much that can be done without any pass rush...and I mean a legit threat from
the D line...at least one guy who can get there...they have NOTHING going
on...and that leaves the DB's hung out to dry...not even to mention what it
will do to at least one LB who MUST cover someone and usually in man
coverage.

Michael

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Jan 5, 2011, 4:06:05 PM1/5/11
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On Jan 5, 12:17 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:

<SNIP>

> AGAIN GREAT ANALYSIS.....it seems like people are wanting to toast the D
> backs, safeties...and it isn't really their fault, IMHO....there is only so
> much that can be done without any pass rush...and I mean a legit threat from
> the D line...at least one guy who can get there...they have NOTHING going
> on...and that leaves the DB's hung out to dry...not even to mention what it
> will do to at least one LB who MUST cover someone and usually in man
> coverage.


papa... im interested to know what you think of my idea above to use
six db's and 2 lbs against the pats. im sure you must have seen
similar defense used on run and shoot spread offense. 4 db's in man
and two in zone. only 2 lbs with three down linemen. line for db's
across in man, (revis, poole, lowrey or coleaman and cromartie) one
post db in zone (lowrey or coleman) and one in shallow zone (smith).
the shallow db can be used in coverage, come up against the run or
used in a zone blitz. a spy MLB (harris) on the ball carrier and the
second OLB (pace or blt) to be used on the edge. Of course, each and
every DB could be used in a zone blitz too.

opinion ?

papa.carl44

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Jan 5, 2011, 6:53:52 PM1/5/11
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"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:c2a33462-0ab9-457f...@g25g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...

<SNIP>

opinion ?

:-) I ran a defense like that....even had to create it on the spot one
night. I took a CB / S backup on the sideline, showed him where the Sam LB
was lined up...told him to just go back two yards and play the TE in the
seam to the flat...only worry about pass. He went in and did the job...he
was a sophomore basketball player with great athletic skills. That created
a defense that night and we installed it formally then. The kid in question
actually played a lot from that point on and played in college when he
graduated. But that was high school, the Jets have a problem, they lost
their best safety and they have no D linemen who can penetrate. IMHO, to do
this stuff effectively, you need a D line inside that can cause some
problems. If the Jets get too cutesy, anybody would just run up the middle
like crazy, again, OMHO. PC


papa.carl44

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Jan 5, 2011, 7:44:34 PM1/5/11
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"papa.carl44" <papad...@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message
news:1LudnRDeQLYMmbjQ...@giganews.com...

Michael, I should explain here that we had already gone into a max pass
coverage by replacing the DE with a LB and a CB in for where the LB
left....sorry...so what we effectively did was go with the MLB and WLB up on
the line but playing pass in the slot and put in more DB's....the biggest
thing was the SLB coming out and a DB going in....we expected the opponent
to start running right away....but they didn't. We controlled the line with
two tackles and one strong side DE....I would have run on it.


Michael

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Jan 5, 2011, 8:54:30 PM1/5/11
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On Jan 5, 7:44 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1LudnRDeQLYMmbjQ...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> two tackles and one strong side DE....I would have run on it.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

that is some creative stuff ! i think the jets could use it against NE
and still avoid getting ground up in the running game because of
Pouha, Ellis and Devito. I hardly ever seen ball carriers get past
them. They dont get any penetration on the qb, but they are very
stout run defenders. it is a very good first down line. the lack of
pass rush, of course would be helped by 6 db's sustaining coverage and
use of zone blitz from the db's. of course, you could go to more of a
standard 34 and can two db's for two more lb's at times on first down,
short yardage of goal line. IMHO, I dont see the jets haveing ANY
chance at all against new england unless they use a defense much like
the ones we are describing.

From a coaching standpoint, how hard is it to come up with a set of
rules for the two DB's in zone and the single OLB ???

papa.carl44

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Jan 6, 2011, 12:43:25 AM1/6/11
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"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:d8a7b02e-065c-4d21...@i17g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...

I was very fortunate in my last coaching job. I only left that job because
I wanted to see my son play in college, then life just changed and I went
into other things. But, we had very good players, and some fantastic
coaches. We were even able to do the offense / defense thing and even split
practices almost completely. We had a good mix of kids, and they had a
reason to be academic, it was a very large private school but one where some
kids were there because the parents worked thier tails off to put them
there..a parochial school. All I'm trying to show you is we had some smart
kids, and ones who grew up in the system. If you drill a lot, teach a
lot...really teach and have sets of rules for situations it is not hard...we
often played man under and zone deep with that stuff and the kids knew how
to communicate and pass off someone. BUT.....the two down tackles both went
on to big time schools and were part of the teeth of the D...the other top
spot of the D was our strong safety who could play deep or up on the line as
a LB. A year later we found we could not do this stuff...just didn't have
the mules to pull the wagon anymore. I'm not so sure those guys you put a
lot of cred in can hold their own without the LB's being very involved.


Michael

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Jan 6, 2011, 10:25:12 AM1/6/11
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On Jan 6, 12:43 am, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> lot of cred in can hold their own without the LB's being very involved.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

ahhh...i think i understand what you are saying... the brainpower of
the players helps determine how the coach can run a system. sort of
like leonhard calling coverage ??? lots of posters and fans dont like
e. smith, but rex seems to like him. i think rex finds some security
in having him around because e. smith probably has some football
brainpower as far as calling coverage even though his play has been
horrendous ! probably hard for rex to give up on a guy like that since
he knows his style of defense is dead in the water without the
brianpower component calling the coverage

papa.carl44

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Jan 6, 2011, 2:38:22 PM1/6/11
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"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:0bf726cc-2baf-4b48...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...

That could be, for sure. For one eight year stretch I had a series of LB's
that were smart....very smart. They could come out of a game and tell me
what was happening, they saw things we could not see from the sideline or
even from up above. They wouldn't come out and go to the bench or get a
drink, they'd come right to me and start telling me what they saw and what
they felt they could and could not do. I've stayed very close to some of
them through all these years...you really develop a close relationship like
that...so I could see how Rex would need a player who can "coach" from the
field. There is always a great athlete who needs to have someone else get
him to the right place...it just happens.


Harlan Lachman

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Jan 6, 2011, 2:46:14 PM1/6/11
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In article
<0bf726cc-2baf-4b48...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
Michael <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote:

> probably hard for rex to give up on a guy like that since
> he knows his style of defense is dead in the water without the
> brianpower component calling the coverage

Of course, the alternative would be to play someone else not so adept at
being too slow to cover, hit, or tackle and simplify the defense.

h

papa.carl44

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Jan 6, 2011, 7:41:50 PM1/6/11
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"Harlan Lachman" <har...@eeivt.com> wrote in message
news:harlan-25C988....@news60.forteinc.com...

Rex can't simplify his defense...because then it isn't his defense and it
becomes very, very vanilla with less than the best in some positions. The
entire thing was build around two outstanding corners. When he lost Jenkins
he lost a lot.


Michael

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Jan 6, 2011, 8:50:34 PM1/6/11
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On Jan 6, 7:41 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:

> "Harlan Lachman" <har...@eeivt.com> wrote in message
>
> news:harlan-25C988....@news60.forteinc.com...
>
> > In article
> > <0bf726cc-2baf-4b48-94aa-5c5394fd6...@e20g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,

> > Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> >> probably hard for rex to give up on a guy like that since
> >> he knows his style of defense is dead in the water without the
> >> brianpower component calling the coverage
>
> > Of course, the alternative would be to play someone else not so adept at
> > being too slow to cover, hit, or tackle and simplify the defense.
>
> > h
>
> Rex can't simplify his defense...because then it isn't his defense and it
> becomes very, very vanilla with less than the best in some positions.  The
> entire thing was build around two outstanding corners.  When he lost Jenkins
> he lost a lot.

imho, the poor production of pace and ellis cost them as much if not
more this year than losing jenk

papa.carl44

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Jan 6, 2011, 9:26:57 PM1/6/11
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"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:45e64b2d-09fa-48cc...@w17g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...

sort of...maybe not....there is only so much they can do with no big
pressure in the middle. In my opinion, not having that huge player in the
middle changes everything. You don't see teams doubling up on people in the
middle and that changes everything in terms of how they can defend the
outside.


Michael

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Jan 6, 2011, 10:19:36 PM1/6/11
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On Jan 6, 9:26 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> outside.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

i'm wondering why the jets done use the double a gap blitz more
often. when they run it, it appears to be one of the few ways they
get successful pressure on the qb

papa.carl44

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Jan 6, 2011, 10:26:39 PM1/6/11
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"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:ec7c31d3-0851-4435...@z19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

You guess wrong on that while you are playing a two deep and you are
toasted...big time...no way around it...they NEED a big player in the
middle...more than one really.


Michael

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Jan 7, 2011, 9:39:40 AM1/7/11
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On Jan 6, 10:26 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
> middle...more than one really.- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

i am frequently confused about the intention of the jets defense. in
your typical 34, the interior line guys get mentioned by the
announcers as often as offensive guards. they are just run suffers in
a typical two gap 34. the classic pats defense for the past few years
often shifts from a two gap 34 on first and second to a one gap 43 to
pressure on 3rd down. the jets "rex" 34 is never the same thing.
pouha, devito and ellis make an ideal run stuffing two gap 34 group,
but no way is that a good group to run an attacking or one gap front.
so... when you try to morph or vary the jets defensive set from a two
gap 34 run stuffing line to a pressure 43, they dont have the guys who
can penetrate up the gut. so... rex sends a bunch of guys in a blitz,
and... not one single jet rush lineman or OLB has nearly the juice to
destroy a single blocker. the few times they get to the qb fast is by
a db that was unaccounted for or they luck out with double a gap
pressure. so... here is my question of intention. why keep it up if
you cant run that race with the horses you have in the stable ??? This
is why I keep talking about using a 4(3)-1(2)-6 if they go visit brady
later this month

papa.carl44

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Jan 7, 2011, 12:53:42 PM1/7/11
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"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:f7d9dfc7-12c4-4496...@g26g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...

:-) I like a 4-3 the best. But the teams that do best with any Rex type D
are the ones who have somebody in the middle who can create enough concern
to occupy at least the attention of all three middle O players, even the
away guard will often check to see the guy is not looping or something. ANY
kind of major threat in the middle like that changes everything I think and
even if it is one guy being the huge run stopper, it frees up other people
to do the cute stuff. I think Jenkins was capable of that kind of threat,
they took a gamble and lost it...there are not a lot of great ones around I
don't think. They just need a really dominant D lineman and like you say,
the kind of guy who gets mentioned a LOT.


Grinch

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Jan 7, 2011, 7:09:44 PM1/7/11
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On Jan 7, 12:53 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:

>...


> ANY kind of major threat in the middle like that changes everything I think and
> even if it is one guy being the huge run stopper, it frees up other people
> to do the cute stuff.  I think Jenkins was capable of that kind of threat,
> they took a gamble and lost it...there are not a lot of great ones around I
> don't think.  They just need a really dominant D lineman and like you say,
> the kind of guy who gets mentioned a LOT.

I fully agree. (How come we are agreeing so much lately? <g>)

And one thing I just don't understand, if it is true, is the report in
the papers at the time Jenkins was injured that his knee was only 70%
healed when they sent him back in to play. He said he felt good and
wanted to play. The coaches said we need you and you are a player, so
go play. The doctors said "70%, it is your decision".

If it's my decision, having Jenkins miss the first 6 games to be sure
he plays he last 10 and the playoffs at 100% seems a no-brainer
compared to any risk of losing him immediately forever. I mean to
send a *nose tackle* of all players(!) onto the field with an unhealed
knee...

That's just the selfish W-L calculation. I'd hope the human
calculation that you don't risk crippling a person forever to win a
footballl game would count too. But since the human and selfish-WL
calculations give the same result, we don't have to argue that, and I
don't understand the answer they came up with.

Even when I was back in high school eons ago the coaches I knew said
there's a difference between being hurt, i.e. feeling pain, and being
injured. If you are hurt you suck it up and play, no matter how bad,
that's part of being what a member of a team is. If you are injured,
even if you feel no pain, you sit until you get better.

If Jenkins was pushing to get in early, I don't blame him. Some
players are like race horses, they are born to want to *go* even if it
means running on a broken leg that will force them to be shot. They
just have to be restrained. There is a responsibility to do that.

And some responsibilities can't be delegated. The navy holds the
captain of a ship responsible for whatever bad happens to it, no
matter who actually was responsible*, period. And for good reason. The
coach of a NFL team decides who plays in the game. That makes him
responsible for who plays, period. I *hate* when in injured-player
cases at *any* level the coach weasels "well, I'm no medical expert,
but the doctors say it seems not too bad, so if the player says he's
not too bad and wants to play..." Bullshit.

If Jenkins really went in at 70% Rex is responsible whether he thinks
it was his decision or not -- and he's paying the price now.

~~~~
* My grandfather was a US Navy ship captain who got his ship rammed on
the St Lawrence Seaway by some commercial tug-barge get-up long before
I was born.

One of the funniest things I've ever read in my life is his report on
it to his superiors. The first half of every sentence is "My
responsibility ... no excuse..." and the second half is his excuse for
why he wasn't responsible.

"It was my full responsibilty, and I have no excuse for not knowing
that the tug captain was drunk, the pilot was disabled by an epileptic
fit, and the tug's mate was a co-owner of the barge who steered into
me intentionally to get an insurance recovery. It is also fully my
responsibility that ...."

Michael

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Jan 7, 2011, 8:16:18 PM1/7/11
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there is a real good chance that jenk may not have re-injured that
knee if he wore a brace. somthing he did not agree to do

papa.carl44

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Jan 7, 2011, 9:54:46 PM1/7/11
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"Grinch" <oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:55238e7a-1e41-455f...@fm22g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...


The HC is the guy where the buck stops...period. Every system I've ever
seen had a weakness in it. It was either a coach who could "bully" the
training staff or had a doctor in his hip pocket or a doctor / trainer who
were very loose...it seems like those are the guys who drift toward being
around the game. The word spreads too, amongst players, "Don't go to Doctor
so and so because you'll be out for the season." It's just the way it is.
We have nurtured, "No pain no gain...play with pain...mental toughness" and
all kinds of crap. A ton of kids playing the game are not really hurt at
all, they only feel discomfort, vocalize it and mommy responds....but a lot
of kids will take all kinds of chances too. That attitude becomes
solidified in the culture of the game. My son played in college when he
shouldn't have been playing and it cost him. If he would have given his leg
a rest, he would have come back, I feel pretty sure about it...but he was
pressured to the extreme by the coaches to get back...all that, "We need
you...you're walking OK....Hey, you're a tough kid." He was tough, he
played a game that won them the conference championship with a broken hand
and carried the ball the entire second half. So....the tougher the player
appears to be, the more encouragement they will get to return to the game.
And...it is always harder with a big body. We agree because we are both
right :-)


papa.carl44

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Jan 7, 2011, 9:55:30 PM1/7/11
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"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:dc392380-a915-4b96...@f2g2000vby.googlegroups.com...

And...it was within the powers of the CS to force him to do that I believe.


Grinch

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Jan 8, 2011, 12:25:11 AM1/8/11
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On Jan 7, 9:54 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Grinch" <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote in message

I hope that's why! :-) But I agree with everything you said again.

I always admired Walt Michaels because he was both a top coach and had
real character as a human being.

Back in the USFL he coached Doug Flutie as QB of the NY Generals,
owned by Donald Trump. Flutie broke his collarbone during the season
and sat some games after they locked up a playoff spot, but the team
needed him back for the playoffs.

Before the first playoff game Flutie said he felt 100% and started
practicing again. The team doctors said he was OK. Trump told the
papers he would play. But Michaels knew from experience that a
collarbone could be treacherous, feel good before healing, and if it
shattered under contact the injury could be life-altering serious.
Michaels also didn't trust the team doctors, he thought they'd say
whatever Trump told them to say.

So Michaels on the sly sent the x-rays from the team doctors to
outside doctors he knew from his Jets days, on his own dime. Those
doctors said, "Holy crap, that's not healed, if it snaps the wrong way
it could cut an artery and kill him. Don't let him even anywhere near
a practice field."

So Michaels benched Flutie and they lost in the first round. Flutie,
who only knew what the team doctors had said, was furious. Trump was
more furious and fired Michaels. (Though it didn't really matter in
the end, as the league folded after that season.)

Years later Flutie learned the truth, and he had the class to publicly
thank Michaels for maybe saving his career and possibly even his
life, at the cost of losing the team a game (and, not least, his
job) when so many others were trying to get him to go out and play
without even telling him the risk he was taking. Flutie's a good guy
too.

Grinch

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Jan 8, 2011, 12:28:08 AM1/8/11
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On Jan 7, 9:55 pm, "papa.carl44" <papadotc...@nospamverizon.net>
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> And...it was within the powers of the CS to force him to do that I believe.- Hide quoted text -

Good point. "Play with the brace, Big Butt". "I don't wanna ..."
"Let me tell you who we are. I'm the boss. You're the one playing with
the brace". And maybe they still have a pass rush.

papa.carl44

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Jan 8, 2011, 12:59:39 PM1/8/11
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"Grinch" <oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:d8a1f920-bf7c-43c8...@l7g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...

___________________________________________________________
The NEW JERSEY Generals....had tickets to them for a season.
____________________________________________________________

Before the first playoff game Flutie said he felt 100% and started
practicing again. The team doctors said he was OK. Trump told the
papers he would play. But Michaels knew from experience that a
collarbone could be treacherous, feel good before healing, and if it
shattered under contact the injury could be life-altering serious.
Michaels also didn't trust the team doctors, he thought they'd say
whatever Trump told them to say.

_______________________________________________________________
Does't everybody who works for Trump say what he wants to hear.
_______________________________________________________________

So Michaels on the sly sent the x-rays from the team doctors to
outside doctors he knew from his Jets days, on his own dime. Those
doctors said, "Holy crap, that's not healed, if it snaps the wrong way
it could cut an artery and kill him. Don't let him even anywhere near
a practice field."

________________________________________________________________
That was Dr. Nichols I believe.
________________________________________________________________

So Michaels benched Flutie and they lost in the first round. Flutie,
who only knew what the team doctors had said, was furious. Trump was
more furious and fired Michaels. (Though it didn't really matter in
the end, as the league folded after that season.)

Years later Flutie learned the truth, and he had the class to publicly
thank Michaels for maybe saving his career and possibly even his
life, at the cost of losing the team a game (and, not least, his
job) when so many others were trying to get him to go out and play
without even telling him the risk he was taking. Flutie's a good guy
too.

____________________________________________________________________
Did they hold the championship game at Giant's Stadium? I think I had
tickets to that and
didn't go. I met Michaels a couple of times...was extremely nice.
____________________________________________________________________


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