Re: Hartsock released
Michael
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> Who is more insane.
>
> A guy with one catch won't take a pay cut or the Jets for having him
> in there 43% of the plays.
the offense in general did some odd things...
who gets the credit/blame ???
btw... if rex is confusing the offense further, it is only because
they dont have a strong and completely respected OC on the job. do
you think a qualified OC would take fool hardy input from a defensive
HC ??? nop... he'd do his job and set the HC straight.
Michael
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > > Who is more insane.
>
> > > A guy with one catch won't take a pay cut or the Jets for having him
> > > in there 43% of the plays.
>
> > the offense in general did some odd things...
>
> > who gets the credit/blame ???
>
> > btw... if rex is confusing the offense further, it is only because
> > they dont have a strong and completely respected OC on the job.
>
> Sanchez went backwards they brought in 2 & 3 TE sets which were rarely
> present in Schott's previous three years. It could be Schott or it
> could be all three of them trying to get a green QB through.
>
> >do
> > you think a qualified OC would take fool hardy input from a defensive
> > HC ??? nop... he'd do his job and set the HC straight.
>
> somewhere else.
im not sure of that.. i'd guess that there are DC's and OC's that run
their system they way they see fit. why have them if the HC does it
all ??? look at guys like martz, rex, norv, holmgren, etc... they port
their offense/defense from team to team. they are not doing what the
HC dreams up. they are running their systems... sure they have some
new wrinkes, but for the most part, the bring in the same systems that
they were well known for. if a HC told the OC to run at a critical
time and the OC passed instead... yeah, you would have a problem
Michael
> > their system they way they see fit. why have them if the HC does it
> > all ??? look at guys like martz, rex, norv, holmgren, etc... they port
> > their offense/defense from team to team. they are not doing what the
> > HC dreams up. they are running their systems... sure they have some
> > new wrinkes, but for the most part, the bring in the same systems that
> > they were well known for. if a HC told the OC to run at a critical
> > time and the OC passed instead... yeah, you would have a problem
>
> 2009, with an even more dramatic changed mid season of the same year,
> that is the extent of my knowledge. If the head coach brings an OC or
> has one forced on him then yes they have so leeway. Schott was not
> brought in as he signed his contract after Rex' hiring. Rex could
> like him or Rex could have decided he will do it my way so he didn't
> care and both are speculation on my part.
>
> You anti-schottistas have hope as no extension been signed. If Don
> Coryell was available there could be no OTA's so a change is
> counterproductive. I am still not 100% Schott returns. $2MM is a
> pile of dough for an OC.
2mm is a pile for shotty... 2mm is fair market value for a top guy
Michael
>
> with a good QB. Like I have said before look at the top 50% of the
> offenses in the league and they generally have a good QB & he is also
> usually a veteran. I don't think you see too many instances where the
> X & O's guy is pulling a guy above his level except maybe Weis in KC &
> perhaps Schott with the Jets.
>
> I think you pay that to get a DC if you are Sean Payton, Kubiak, etc.
> if your personal strength is on the other side of the ball. $2MM is
> market for a top DC because the good ones can turn a team immediately.
i have to contemplate this, john... have there even been any good
examples of quality qb's languishing on fairly manned offenses that
still had little to no production ??? it calls for some study.
consider the offense walton ran with ken o'brien. there must be other
examples. also... a new point here... if you are correct and 2mm is
above market value... even for an experienced and accomplished OC...
how would you explain schotty having a 2mm ??? may be... some one up
there lilkes him... when i say "up there" i mean... woody... dig ???
papa.carl44
"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:57e11973-00e2-450b...@v11g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
The C stands for COORDINATOR...not Cing or Control freak...they coordinate
the collective efforts of the program as far as offense goes. I never heard
of a OC or DC being totally autonomous...the HC is the guy in charge and
decides what the system should be...at least that is how it should work. The
reason it should be that way is Offense and Defense are not mutally
exclusive. You need to have systems that compliment each other. If you
have a high power quick strike type offense, you need to have a defense that
can come back on the field quickly and be ready...AND play against stuff
that will most likely be in catch up mode. If you have a defense that can
get the job done but is thin and lacks depth you need an offense that can
keep the drive going and give the D a rest...it is still a TEAM...not two
totally different groups out there.
Michael
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
Neither does the "C" stand for "Laundry Boy". Schotty is the guy
with the clip board and the headset... The only guy the QB hears from
on field
And... The Jets do have the right idea about making the offense and
defense jive. Strong defense and groud game. It is classic.
Formula. The problem being, the Jets offense could not score enough
points to cover the 85 Bears defense. I'm astounded that they made it
to the AFC Champ game twice in a row with their offensive production.
And no, John C... It was not all Sanchez and it was not all dropped
passes. That counts, but underpinning all the offensive woes has been
you know who
papa.carl44
LOL...you reminded me of an occasion when I was coaching and we tried to get
into our office in the early part of the summer. A guy was posted at the
door that went down a ramp under the building. That's where our office was
located next to locker rooms. This guy had a clip board and a flashlight.
He told us that the building was being inspected for asbestos and we could
not enter. We told him we had been in that same room day in and day out for
the last five years. He said, "No." So, my buddy told him to get the F out
of our way...."you've got a clip board, a flash light, a GED, and an uncle
who got you a job...now F'ing move." He did. BTW...there wasn't any
asbestos. So maybe Schott has someone who got him a job?
papa.carl44
"John C TX" <johnc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:fc175821-c40d-4637...@d12g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
X-No-Archive: Yes
> And no, John C... It was not all Sanchez and it was not all dropped
> passes. That counts, but underpinning all the offensive woes has been
> you know who
I truly don't know.
All I know, when I coach any sport, I look much better as a coach,
when I have players with good decision making skills. Sanchez is great
athlete but he at times he is an idiot.
Any more of an idiot than Brett? Or any number of top Hall of Fame QB's?
papa.carl44
Carl, it is why my sport is so much easier to coach than American
football. Everyone is defender. Everyone is an attacker.
How tough would it be to have a plan in place, and this is not a
Schott boost, and have the head coach say, "run it", "pss it", etc.
Well...in one sound bite we did see Schott asking Rex what to do...the
critical play that beat the Colts.
Michael
Michael
> > passes. That counts, but underpinning all the offensive woes has been
> > you know who
>
>
> All I know, when I coach any sport, I look much better as a coach,
> when I have players with good decision making skills. Sanchez is great
> athlete but he at times he is an idiot.
a lot of it could be sanchez... he's sucked as often as he's
astounded. past offensive problems were written off due to
pennington's poor arm strenght, swapping qb's last minute and going
with favre, and then having to wet nurse a rookie. when has the jets
offense been good on a regular basis under schotty ??? there are some
good excuses for schotty... BUT... then there is the extensive
collection of very strange calls... usually at critical times. i dont
know how dealing with a rookie qb would prompt an OC to pick some of
the plays i have seen schotty come up with... if i could only see a
good stretch of games with good production and no off the wall play
calls that kill drives, I'd be a Schotty supporter. That has never
happend. I do think that Rex is the guy behind the under use of
Green. LT is Rex's guy. LT gets the ball even when Green will serve
them better. I almost pissed my pants some of the time they gave LT
the short yardage and goal line carries and not Green. This coming
season, if LT's production is poor and they dont go to Green, it wont
be Schotty that I point at.
papa.carl44
X-No-Archive: Yes
> All I know, when I coach any sport, I look much better as a coach,
> when I have players with good decision making skills. Sanchez is great
> athlete but he at times he is an idiot.
>
> Any more of an idiot than Brett? Or any number of top Hall of Fame QB's?
Fair enough & I always have said he is very young & very
inexperienced. That after two years he already has 6 play off games
under his belt is very advantageous.
Yeah...I wonder how many other QB's had six playoff games by year two, and
with only a little bit of college ball? Doesn't it sort of make you wonder
how good he might be if coached the right way and in the right situation?
I'm not suggesting he is not being coached the right way, I'm wondering just
how far he can go if he gets all the tools he needs.
papa.carl44
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>> How tough would it be to have a plan in place, and this is not a
>> Schott boost, and have the head coach say, "run it", "pss it", etc.
>>
>> Well...in one sound bite we did see Schott asking Rex what to do...the
>> critical play that beat the Colts.
>
> look I wrote it had nothing to do with Schott.
>
> At the end of Pardee's run in Houston the owner read in the paper
> where someone wrote that Pardee doesn't where a head set. They also
> made Gilbride pick up a TE. So all of a sudden Pardee is wearing a
> headset and you knew he had lost the team. By then they also sucked
> because Moon & other stars were let go.
>
> I was referring to not having control.
I know what you meant....and what did I reply? He obviously has some
control if in a critical situation the OC has to ask him what to do....and
then the HC agrees with the QB. Well, maybe he doesn't know what he's doing
either...he let the QB run the show...but it worked.
papa.carl44
X-No-Archive: Yes
> >> How tough would it be to have a plan in place, and this is not a
> >> Schott boost, and have the head coach say, "run it", "pss it", etc.
>
> >> Well...in one sound bite we did see Schott asking Rex what to do...the
> >> critical play that beat the Colts.
>
> > I guess that is a good sign but I think you missed my point. If you
> > look I wrote it had nothing to do with Schott.
>
> > At the end of Pardee's run in Houston the owner read in the paper
> > where someone wrote that Pardee doesn't where a head set. They also
> > made Gilbride pick up a TE. So all of a sudden Pardee is wearing a
> > headset and you knew he had lost the team. By then they also sucked
> > because Moon & other stars were let go.
>
> > I was referring to not having control.
>
> I know what you meant....
& ignored it
>and what did I reply? He obviously has some
> control if in a critical situation the OC has to ask him what to do....and
> then the HC agrees with the QB. Well, maybe he doesn't know what he's
> doing
> either...he let the QB run the show...but it worked.
You have beat that dead horse into the ground. I know you hate
Schott.
I happen to think the problem is a green QB and a head coach that
wants to run the ball resulting in problems. Rex needs to get someone
that will give him what he wants. Schott was his choice.
NO...quite honestly, you are the one perseverating on the OC. I made a
statement of fact based on what we were able to see and hear. Schott
deferred to Rex in a critical situation...he asked him what HE wanted to
run. Then Rex answered and looked at Sanchez and said "Run that."....so,
all I know is Schott deferred to Rex and Rex went along with the QB...but
the fact of the matter is still it was Rex's call...honestly, I don't give a
damn who the OC is...Rex is the HC and he should be responsible for the
entire team. If Rex can get the offense to be more efficient and play
consistently like they seem to be able to play in spurts and in a crisis,
that would be great.
Harlan Lachman
<a0339881-a569-4531...@a28g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>,
John C TX <johnc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
> > >> How tough would it be to have a plan in place, and this is not a
> > >> Schott boost, and have the head coach say, "run it", "pss it", etc.
> >
> > >> Well...in one sound bite we did see Schott asking Rex what to do...the
> > >> critical play that beat the Colts.
> >
> > > I guess that is a good sign but I think you missed my point. If you
> > > look I wrote it had nothing to do with Schott.
> >
> > > At the end of Pardee's run in Houston the owner read in the paper
> > > where someone wrote that Pardee doesn't where a head set. They also
> > > made Gilbride pick up a TE. So all of a sudden Pardee is wearing a
> > > headset and you knew he had lost the team. By then they also sucked
> > > because Moon & other stars were let go.
> >
> > > I was referring to not having control.
> >
> > I know what you meant....
> & ignored it
> >and what did I reply? He obviously has some
> > control if in a critical situation the OC has to ask him what to do....and
> > then the HC agrees with the QB. Well, maybe he doesn't know what he's doing
> > either...he let the QB run the show...but it worked.
>
> You have beat that dead horse into the ground. I know you hate
> Schott.
>
> I happen to think the problem is a green QB and a head coach that
> wants to run the ball resulting in problems. Rex needs to get someone
> that will give him what he wants. Schott was his choice.
John, I think you are unfair. I am the one who hates the OC. Papa just
raises occasional questions from time to time.
You are correct that we cannot know what is Rex and what is Shott. I am
correct that until Shott is replaced, we will never get better,
regardless if the problem is Shott or Rex' interference. Until his
replacement, we will not know the cause. If it is Rex, with a
replacement, the cover will be off and pressure can be placed where it
belongs. However, I think with at least an adequate replacement, we
would find the problem solved.
harlan
papa.carl44
"Harlan Lachman" <har...@eeivt.com> wrote in message
news:harlan-816AEA....@news60.forteinc.com...
Actually that makes a lot of sense...because I have no clue who calls all
the "shots"...no pun....I was actually surprised in the clip when Schott
turned to Rex to ask what he wanted. That told me that Rex does have more
input than I thought. I still do not like the design or the way the offense
is run and I do not think it utilizes all the talent they have at their
disposal. So, if Brian Schottenheimer is really a top notch OC he may not
get to show it if Rex is the one causing the problems. If Rex is going to
be a top notch HC, he needs to see that there are some issues and either
replaces the OC if that IS the problem or he leaves the OC alone and lets
him get the job done. If Schottenheimer were to leave and nothing gets any
better or even changes, then you know Rex has a hand in it. Of course,
Schott could leave and a complete loser could run the show...and that would
still be on Rex. This also leaves room for something I have suspected for a
while--and that is Woody Johnson has his fingers in things a little deeper
than an owner probably should. It's all guessing. But what is not guessing
is the offense looks absolutely terrible at times and it is not all because
of the QB.
papa.carl44
So by saying this has nothing to do with Schott I brought it up? My
point was about coaching not about his abilities or lack thereof.
Your observation would be anecdotal evidence.
And from where we both sit...what other kind of evidence is there? Until
they let me come sit in thier meetings and go to practice it is all
assumptions and anecdotal evidence. From everything I was ever taught, came
to understand, saw on successful teams that won Championships and Super
Bowls....the offense does not appear, TO ME, as being a cohesive and smooth
operation. I don't see a scheme or plan to it. I have NO idea who is
really at fault for that, but I do think it loses them games, especially
critical games to take it to the next level and I know who they list as the
OC...so I make an assumption. If it is not that guy and really Rex who is
in total control of the offense then things don't look so good for the
future I guess.
papa.carl44
"John C TX" <johnc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:78aa5970-9741-4be9...@p3g2000vbv.googlegroups.com...
harlan you have some company. When I write "hate" I mean you guys
thinks he sucks.
If you mean 1/5 -10 posts as opposed to 2/3? Then yes that would be
the occasional question.
As I have written before at least PC brings specifics.
>
> You are correct that we cannot know what is Rex and what is Shott. I am
> correct that until Shott is replaced, we will never get better,
> regardless if the problem is Shott or Rex' interference.
I am not 100% sure what the problem is but I do believe a green QB has
been a big part of it. His accuracy also holds the offense back.
> Until his
> replacement, we will not know the cause. If it is Rex, with a
> replacement, the cover will be off and pressure can be placed where it
> belongs. However, I think with at least an adequate replacement, we
> would find the problem solved.
>
> harlan
Like I have written 100 times we don't know & it may be Schottenheimer
but to ignore bad QBing, dropped passes, etc. on Schott is unfair.
So...lets' not blame the QB for the dropped passes :-) Some here do....and
that would be the "Sanchez haters" who tend to appear to be the same people
who "love Schott" or at least want to give him a pass for a few more years.
Hell, at the high school level in many, many places if the coach doesn't
produce he's out...and I know for sure (I've seen it) if a position coach or
coordinator does not produce in certain programs they are gone too. So,
whoever runs the Jets offense has had a variety of QB's, a wide variety of
OL, WR's and so on...and it never seems to come together. What am I saying?
I think there are guys out there who could have made the group they had this
past season work...and make Sanchez perform well in a system that works for
him.
BTW...just got a text alert...the talks broke off...and the union is
attempting to dissolve itself.
papa.carl44
X-No-Archive: Yes
Thanks I love reading posts about football, especially yours, but I
hate "beer talk"
(Well, I don't drink beer, or wine or anything else with alcohol in it...so
put up with some Strong Coffee, Espresso, Coke and Green Tea talk)
I would agree there is something rough. If they get everyone back & it
isn't smooth I am with you 100%. 3rd years with a good line, good
backs, & it shoudl be smooth.
papa.carl44
"papa.carl44" <papad...@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message
news:CZ6dnXNNTrIiM-fQ...@giganews.com...
If they don't get better next year...and it may be in two years which would
screw it all up...Woody needs to find another plan....it's all about the
moment in the game these days.