Re: Nice article: Ten logical cap casualties for 2010...
MZ
<snip>
> Nick Kaczur, T, New England Patriots
> Kaczur consistently has been the weak link of a once-formidable Patriots offensive line,
> and while the team signed him to a contract extension in the summer of 2009, the emergence
> of Sebastian Vollmer should force him out of New England. The team could trim $3 million
> in bonus money by releasing him, while avoiding his $2.7 million base salary for this
> year.
Don't know a whole lot about the rest of the guys, but this one I do
know is idiotic. So, maybe I'm throwing out the baby with the bathwater
here, but I'd be skeptical about the others. The Houshmenzada thing
seemed far-fetched too.
BUT.. VG is useless and expensive. I just don't know how the rules work
when they implement a cap in 2011.
Ray O'Hara
"buRford" <buR...@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
news:7h4gp590ur41v69ul...@4ax.com...
> Well, VG made another Top Ten list ;)
>
>
> Ten logical cap casualties for 2010
> By Bill Barnwell
> Football Outsiders
>
2010 is an uncapped year.
and more importantly its a year with no minimum.
teams can dump players with no consequences.
the players and agents see uncapped and think the sky is the limit.
the owners see no minimum and the floor is the limit.
big stars will get their money.
the average guy and rookies will get screwed.
Johnctx
Mark, I am not a big fan of Football Outsiders for quite a few reasons.
This is proof that the geeks over there can't even get right what they
should be good at, i.e. the business side of football. Yes there are no
cap issues this year but any dead money hits come home to roost in the
first capped year.
They will take a small cap hit to escape a cash outlay in salary if the
guy is terrible. They probably won't cut a guy if there is $5+MM in
dead money.
So Jerry Jones will dump his #2 WR after making the final 8?
The Seahawks will cut a player with guaranteed a contract who is
starting? So you cut a player you have to pay anyway?
Johnctx
for the 100th time dead money hits the team in the first capped year.
teams will cut if the salary is unreasonable but won't load up on dead
cap space.
Ray O'Hara
"Johnctx" <j...@spamtx.net> wrote in message
news:y4CdnRXeBJZNZQXW...@giganews.com...
How do you know that? What's yor source that the dead money is just saved
for the future?
a deal has to be negotiated and everything is open to negotiation.
Johnctx
Ray it has been posted before...if i have time I will look for it.
papa.carl44
It's really not an uncapped year then....a delayed year or something
maybe....but the league should consider becoming The National Financial
League...forget about football. :-)
Glenn Greenstein
wrote:
> "Johnctx" <j...@spamtx.net> wrote in message
>
> news:k--dnTm2Vro6nQTW...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
> > Ray O'Hara wrote:
> >> "Johnctx" <j...@spamtx.net> wrote in message
> >>news:y4CdnRXeBJZNZQXW...@giganews.com...
> >>> Ray O'Hara wrote:
> >>>>news:7h4gp590ur41v69ul...@4ax.com...
> >>>>> Well, VG made another Top Ten list ;)
>
> >>>>> Ten logical cap casualties for 2010
> >>>>> By Bill Barnwell
> >>>>> Football Outsiders
>
> >>>> 2010 is an uncapped year.
> >>>> and more importantly its a year with no minimum.
> >>>> teams can dump players with no consequences.
> >>>> the players and agents see uncapped and think the sky is the limit.
> >>>> the owners see no minimum and the floor is the limit.
> >>>> big stars will get their money.
> >>>> the average guy and rookies will get screwed.
> >>> for the 100th time dead money hits the team in the first capped year.
> >>> teams will cut if the salary is unreasonable but won't load up on dead
> >>> cap space.
>
> >> How do you know that? What's yor source that the dead money is just saved
> >> for the future?
> >> a deal has to be negotiated and everything is open to negotiation.
>
> > Ray it has been posted before...if i have time I will look for it.
>
> It's really not an uncapped year then....a delayed year or something
> maybe....but the league should consider becoming The National Financial
> League...forget about football. :-)
If you think this is bad, try following the NBA.
Wow, that was a great trade in terms of freeing up cap space. Who were
the players involved again?
papa.carl44
"Glenn Greenstein" <lex...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:25c24de0-d058-4672...@33g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
When somebody said that league is thugs in short pants they were mostly
right....that game has become unwatchable to me. Curling was more fun to
watch.
Remy McSwain
"buRford" <buR...@buR.ford.com> wrote in message
> Well, VG made another Top Ten list ;)
>
>
> Ten logical cap casualties for 2010
> By Bill Barnwell
> Football Outsiders
>
> they already have one
> advantage that none of the owners in other professional sports
> have: nonguaranteed
> contracts. While a team in virtually any other sport is stuck
> paying an underperforming
> player for the full length of his contract, NFL organizations can
> choose to cut a player,
> and avoid paying any future bonuses and base salaries due to him.
>
>
> Normally, there's a downside to that move. Players receive the
> cash from a signing bonus
> immediately upon signing a deal, but teams are allowed to spread
> the cap hit from a
> signing bonus across the length of a contract.
>
>
> For example, a $10 million signing bonus on a five-year deal
> results in a cap hit of $2
> million in each of those five seasons (in addition to a player's
> base salary, incentives
> and other bonuses). When a player is released or traded, the bonus
> money assigned to the
> cap in future years is accelerated onto the current year's cap,
> forcing the team to devote
> a portion of its precious cap space to players who are no longer
> on the roster. That's
> commonly known as "dead money."
>
>
> This year, though, things are different. Because this is an
> uncapped year, teams can
> release players with onerous base salaries and large signing
> bonuses without having to
> worry about cutting corners on this year's roster. That presents
> teams with a
> once-in-a-generation opportunity to erase their mistakes for good.
> Assuming there will be
> a salary cap on the other side of any lockout, there are plenty of
> examples of bad
> contracts teams would be wise to get rid of. We've identified 10
> below, listed
> alphabetically.
This guy is obviously confused about whatever point he's trying to
make. He talks about how NFL teams get to save money because of
non-guaranteed contracts as though bonuses don't exist, but then,
because they do exist, marginalizes them because the cap
consequences of those bonuses get to be spread over multiple years.
What does how the bonuses get cost accounted have to do with whether
or not they exist?
What is oft misunderstood about the NFL and it's non-guaranteed
contracts is that they only exist because, given the cap and how
it's designed, that's the way the players want it anyway. Take the
case of a player who signs a $40MM five year deal with $25MM to be
guaranteed. He has a simple choice. Take the $25MM in the form of
$5MM per year in guaranteed money, or take the whole $25MM up front
in the form of a signing bonus. Which would you take? Sure, you
could make the case that the whole $40MM should be guaranteed, but
that would be a case for increasing the total amount of money to be
paid to players, and not a case for guaranteed contracts. If the
total amount of money to be paid to players remained the same, and
all contracts had to be guaranteed, then that $40MM would never have
been the deal in that case to begin with.
The whole "non-guarenteed contract" in the NFL is a bad thing
argument is bogus on its face.
Johnctx
There are some guaranteed salaries. The Jets have used it a few times.
With Vilma it was smart. They had cap space & they knew they wouldn't
cut him so you get more of the guaranteed portion out of the way. We did
the same thing with Gholston and that doesn't look too smart now.
The non-guaranteed portion is a two edged sword & has value for player &
team.. If Greene doesn't step up & play so well at the end of the year
then Jones makes $6MM and is a FA. Instead he will make $5MM at the
back end of his career.
Remy McSwain
All of which provides further proof that there is no rule against
non-guaranteed contracts, and that it's a natural consequence of the
way the salary cap was designed.
MZ
I don't think the author says otherwise. I think all he said was that
it's allowed in the NFL and apparently not in other leagues.
Ray O'Hara
> Always loved watching the NBA... can't watch anymore, but more because it
> aint Basketball
> anymore, with all the uncalled traveling & palming that goes on these
> days.
it's not travelling it's a "jump stop".
I blame Pat Riley for the mug & thg ball it's become. he started that crap
when he coached Orlando.
Ray O'Hara
"Remy McSwain" <Paradi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:au-dne80zbqL_AfW...@giganews.com...
There weren't any guaranteed contracts before the cap.
Remy McSwain
"MZ" <ma...@nospam.void> wrote in message
news:YvmdnT20acWS-QfW...@giganews.com...
I agree that the author didn't say otherwise. It's just a pet peeve
I have about how the whole issue of non-guaranteed contracts are
misperceived in many circles.
Remy McSwain
"Ray O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hndojg$qc8$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Yes, and instead of the NFL following suit with, for instance, MLB,
and going to a system of no cap, but guaranteed contracts, they,
with the players, wisely chose to go in a different direction. IMO,
this lead to the rise of the NFL to heights of well above where it
would otherwise exist today.
MZ
Yeah, I've seen some people say that it's unfair to the players. They
fail to recognize that contracts have adapted with this in mind and that
bonus money and the overall guaranteed money of the contract tends to be
lower when the entire thing is guaranteed.
In the end, as far as fairness goes, it doesn't really matter. It's
still an open market and players can still negotiate the best possible
deal. The exception to this is the franchise/transition tags, RFA/ERFA,
and the draft. If the NFLPA was really interested in "fairness", they'd
demand that tagging and restricted free agency is eliminated. But I
haven't heard that that's even on the table.
Ray O'Hara
Yes it has allowed the owners to prosper
the players don't see it as good for themselves.
I'm betting on a strike/lockoutfor 2011
Johnny Morongo
>
Fixed.
Johnctx
Actually it started on the Lakers but it is only thug ball if there no
super stars on the court.
The problem with hoop is the players outgrew the court.
papa.carl44
Very good observation...now, take it to football....I think they outgrew the
essence of the game...or were "grown" to that point. I think if they played
the game today the way they played it 45 years ago we would see guys being
carried off to the funeral parlor. Can you imagine legal clotheline hits
today?
Johnctx
If they test for HGH the players will shrink. If they are using HGH
they are probably using steroids.
MZ
Even if you took HGH and steroids out of the equation, they'd still be
bigger and faster. There's a lot more money in the system now than
there was 30 or 40 years ago, and that trickles down to college and high
school and even pop warner. Sure, Texas always had their HS football,
but now you've got Ohio, California, Illinois, and everyplace else
(outside the northeast, anyway) with big HS programs. Johnny QB is no
longer playing football to get the chicks. He's being groomed to get a
big scholarship and to satisfy his daddy's ego. And the chicks. :)
Johnctx
I agree about being bigger but I wonder how much bigger they would be.
The sad part about what you wrote is how coaches hoard their players.
They don't want them playing hoops (it is even worse the other way) and
then you go to a 5A game (top level) in TX and see 80+ kids suited up.
What do the last 41st-80 players do at training? & no they aren't JV
players as most HS at that level run 2 Frosh teams a soph, & a jv team.
250 players in a HS program.
Johnny Morongo
And how many of those 250 players will actually graduate? Gun racks in
pickups, many a child left behind, the Bush legacy, a state where it's
illegal to take more than three sips of beer at a time while standing
and, in your own home town, it's illegal to sell Limburger cheese on
Sunday. Wish we all could live in redneck heaven.
papa.carl44
OK...I'm old, but....I grew up in a factory town in Northwest New Jersey. I
can still remember being taken to high school football games when I was
younger than five years old. That is what everybody did it seemed. The
whole damn town showed up to games on Saturday afternoon, and when the team
won there was a huge parade up to the middle of town and everybody showed
up. It was all blue collar working class driven. We did have two frosh
teams and a sophomore team, a JV team and a varsity. Until the icon of a
coach left when I was a junior the offense was always four yards and a cloud
of dust too. I remember when I was a junior we lost a game and immediately
after went to the practice field to scrimmage. I'm not BS'ing here either.
As far as I know, I was the only guy from my senior year team to play in
college, not that others couldn't have but most just wanted to get a job at
one of the many places you could go to work in. My father had grown up in
company housing, dirt poor and the son of immigrants. He was adamant that
if I could I try and go to college. I did, and it made a difference. But I
will never forget the values I learned from that education and a lot of it
was on the football field. Those coaches, as tough as they were, really
cared about us and what happened to us. It was very different than what
goes on today. I still get to see a lot of football, at all levels and I am
convinced that there is a significant amount of chemical enhancement going
on at all levels too. The intensity of training does some of it..but you
can only get so big lifting weights. I do think it is a shame that kids
today only play one sport. That was all I ever did, play sports and work,
if you weren't out for a sport...you automatically got a job after school.
I don't think anybody ever suffered for it either...it did a lot of good for
me. That same town today...the factories are gone, and so has all the good
stuff. They play football on Friday nights to a much, much smaller crowd.
Johnctx
Wrong again crotch breath, probably most of them.
Surprisingly the better public schools, meaning in academics, are the
suburban HS and they generally clean up in football. In the inner city
schools they don't have the money to sustain the coaching ad what is
worse is that the schools while spending $ are worthless. The better,
meaning white & Asian schools in the city proper do fine, but there are
few public HS in the city that you would let your kids attend.
I could explain to you how the geniuses in TX at least know how to do
some things correctly but public policy on schools above the elementary
school level in the inner city isn't one of them. The geniuses in CA &
NY aren't doing much better.
Next time you want to tee off on the Vatican you may want to ask
yourself how many inner city school kids would be totally f***** w/o
Catholic schools but we'll save that for a bottle of tequila.
:)