Jets top 2 weakneses exposed in 1st Q on way to 0-17.
Grinch
Weakness #1: The pass D, while staying #1 on allowing lowest % of
completed passes, only 50%, has plunged from #2 to #28 on yards
allowed per completion.
First quarter: Brady only hits 5 of 10, 50% good!
But those five average 17 yds each, terrible. Count the 36 yd
interference penalty in the end zone after the D backfield gets beat
there, and it is 20 yards (!) per completion. *Gawd Awful*.
Weakness #2: Sanchez has a league bottom (29th) completion
percentage.
First quarter: Sanchez hits 2 of 7.
(And nobody can say Schott didn't come out throwing against the weak
Patriot pass D ... didn't use the hurry up offense Sanchez loves ...
didn't throw slants to Holmes.)
Result: 0-17, and the Jets have to play uphill out of this hole the
rest of the way.
yoyodog
"Grinch" <oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:10062379-2184-4b4d...@h17g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
You forgot to mention the drops by...
Tutor
Rex Ryan loses after every bye week. This is the equivalent.
Completely unprepared physically and mentally. He either does not
know how to get his team ready or is just too lax too much of the
time. Our defense is atrocious. Without Harris and Taylor in there
it was even worse, but make no mistake, this pass defense is weak.
papa.carl44
"Tutor" <dcat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4314ba79-734d-45d3...@29g2000yqq.googlegroups.com...
What you are watching is a very poorly designed pass defense...defense in
general..it is all gambling...they have totally wasted their two best D
backs....NO pass rush...this was all smoke and mirrors, no substance.
Grinch
I think Schott was trying to have Sanchez hit Holmes on those slants,
instead of throw behind him.
He probably intended Braylon to hold on to that one he dropped too.
Then they are 5 of 7 on those passes -- and they'd have had more first
downs to set up more passes, and the Pats wouldn't have had the ball,
etc.
What the players do on the field can make the OC's intentions look
much more intelligent.
Brady's 66% completion rate probably adds about 20 points to the IQ of
whoever calls his plays.
> in that no-huddle to start the game?
"He never uses the 'hurry up' even though Sanchez loves it"
"WTF is his purpose using the 'hurry up'?".
It's tough being an OC. :-)
> You watch the Pats, & you see what they're trying to do.
> You look at the Jets, & it's like they're praying to move the ball.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Grinch
wrote:
> "Tutor" <dcat4...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
The same defense worked great last year with no more pass rush.
The opposing OC's have figured out how to see through the smoke and
hit big plays against it this year.
John Vamp
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 18:59:19 -0800 (PST), Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> You watch the Pats, & you see what they're trying to do.
> You look at the Jets, & it's like they're praying to move the ball.
I actually liked the idea (from a Jets' perspective) of going no-
huddle. It worked early on.
papa.carl44
"John Vamp" <jvamp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:47e46960-992c-44b6...@k22g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
That's why they got out of it...to do it....you need to have a real game
plan and sequence of things to do...they don't have that.
papa.carl44
There was more of a rush last year....and they did not use the same stuff at
all...this is a lot more of the "bubble" "amoeba" crap now....they look like
they confuse themselves to me.
Michael
wrote:
> "Grinch" <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
jets defensive issues are all manpower issues... no interior pass
rush, no pass rush from the edge... the db's are not able to hold that
scheme up with press coverage unless they can shorten the time the
QB's have to throw the ball. when they try to go max coverage in zone,
their safeties suck so bad that wont work either.
Grinch
How is the manpower so much worse this year than last year, when they
were #1 against both pass and run?
Has adding Cromartie, Taylor and Wilson really hurt the D all that
much?
>... no interior pass
> rush, no pass rush from the edge... the db's are not able to hold that
> scheme up with press coverage unless they can shorten the time the
> QB's have to throw the ball. when they try to go max coverage in zone,
> their safeties suck so bad that wont work either.- Hide quoted text -
RickyBobby
"Grinch" wrote in message
news:10062379-2184-4b4d...@h17g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
As long as Sanchez is starting there is no point in following the Jets.
Other teams have good quarterbacks but the Jets always have lousy
quarterbacks.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
they were simply getting more production from guys up front like pace
and ellis. the jets do not have a single defensive scheme or base
defense. there is nothing for an offense to "figure it out". the
jets try to put pressure on the qb in various ways to shorten pass
routs while letting their interior backers control running gaps.
they are not getting that pressure and their db's are hung out there
in a varierty of man, zone and loaded zones... for too long. ellis is
old and pace is not the same without roids. add to that, the jets
safeties do not have good coverage skills.
Michael
> Rhodes was a pussy, but he was better in coverage than anyone this season.
> Pace is really the only rusher we have, and as such, he can be neutralized.
> And without the talent, a scheme can only go so far. Other OCs have learned to attack our
> weaknesses... and we don't have the talent, to make up for it.
>
>
>
> >Has adding Cromartie, Taylor and Wilson really hurt the D all that
> >much?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>... no interior pass
> >> rush, no pass rush from the edge... the db's are not able to hold that
> >> scheme up with press coverage unless they can shorten the time the
> >> QB's have to throw the ball. when they try to go max coverage in zone,
> >> their safeties suck so bad that wont work either.- Hide quoted text -
>
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
and... when you cant get any rush at all from your interior defensive
line guys... guess what.... it makes it easy for the qb you are facing
to step up and complete passes in the middle of the field...
especially if the inside line backers come up to close the *A* gaps...
like the jets do :-) lack of pass rush is killing them... the offense
is loaded with talent at every level but the OC does not know how to
use it.... the jets have a manpower issue on defense and a coaching
issue on offense...
Michael
> And ya can't overlook the hole the O puts the D in, every game, by giving away the first
> quarter.
> Yeah, Sanchez has had issues at times, but he's given nothing by the OC. Every game is
> the same thing... just follow the plan - - the same plan - - against every team.
> For instance, is it Sanchez' fault that when Shonn is running well, Schott removes him for
> no reason, to put in LT? That's the plan... doesn't matter the situation, or how
> productive a player is... just follow the plan... that every DC knows.
> Last season, Sanchez single-handedly lost games, while this season I can't think of one.
> And he's won a few for us.
> Sanchez is not this offense's problem. The design is.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
yep... it is lots of fun to follow the jets now beacuse they are
entertaining...not because they are perfect... if they want to get
better, they need a proven OC next season and they need to build a
real defensive line. the guys they have now on the line are "try
hard" guys but ellis, pouha and devito is not a premier line...
Michael
> with this O, they're totally exposed.
> I wonder if Rex has encountered the thought, that keeping Schott will have an effect on
> his longevity as HC? I mean... does he ever realize that Schott may be a problem?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
i dont think rex wants to care about the offense. his big issue as hc
is not his bravado or his mouth or that he runs a loose ship.. it is
his doctrine that defense wins games and offense is an after though.
we have to hope that one way or another they stumble on a guy that can
run an offense.
papa.carl44
"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:6ad4559e-68f4-43fa...@s9g2000vby.googlegroups.com...
Ditto...Michael, the guy you are arguing with only understands statistics
and can't see things that change, even when it should not have...they are
NOT getting production our of people who used to produce.
Michael
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
ahh... glad to see you back :-)
now we need mark and glenn to return... this NG has more holes now
then the jets d
Michael
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>
>
>
>
>
> > "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
> Ellis, Pouha, DeVito & Pryce. They may be getting worn down although.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
ellis is old and he is a one gap 43 end. pryce is a retread working
for food. devito is a ham-an-egger who can help run stuff but with no
pass rush ability... pouha is much like devito but stronger... there
is no pass rush to speak of from any of those guys... pace has not
gotten past blockers either... with the group they have, the jets
woudl be better off now with more of a read and react 34 than an
attacking defense.
Grinch
> The object is to attack the weakness, not the strength.
Gee, before this game weren't so many people saying the weakness of
the Pats is their pass D, and it would be a big *mistake* for the Jets
not to switch to attacking it, and instead stick with their ground and
pound?
Do you want me to post links?
This is the thing about the anti-Schott brigade, if he passes he
shoulda run, if he runs he shoulda passed, we told you! :-)
If *before* next week's game y'all could get together and agree on a
single game plan that will be better than Schott's, that would be more
persuasive. There, a challenge!
> On the other hand, Shonn Greene runs well against the Pats.
> So, you go hurry up, rushing Greene, then doing play-action.
> That puts the D on their heels.
You may have forgotten this, but the Jets were losing before Schott
got his first chance to make a bad call.
The Pats' first possessions went FG, TD, TD, TD, as their receivers
averaged *20 yards per catch*.
In that scenario a game plan of "Shonn up the middle" isn't going to
impress any D. Play action doesn't put any D on its heels when you
are *behind* and running the clock out on yourself. Play action only
works when you are even or ahead.
If as the D gave up 6 TDs and a FG in its first nine possessions
Schott spent his time trying to get play action going, he'd a been
lynched. And rightly so.
And I do believe that you, Michael and Papa would be competing to
supply the rope. :-)
> Everything Schott does the Pats expect... and every D expects.- Hide quoted text -
Grinch
> And ya can't overlook the hole the O puts the D in, every game, by giving away the first
> quarter.
By "every game" you mean all three games out of the first 11 in which
the Jets were outscored in the first quarter, two of which they won
(and the third of which they were down by all of 3-0).
This is what I mean, you Schott busters just make crap up. "Schott
sucks as an OC, so he *must* have put the D in a hole in every game by
giving away the first quarter", as the Jets consistently out-score the
opposition in the first quarter.
(And don't try to blame Schott for putting the D in a hole in the
first quarter last night, as the team was behind before he got to call
his first play and the D gave up a TD on every possession after that.
Who put who in that hole?? )
Feel free to bash Schott all you want, but try to stick to reality.
> Yeah, Sanchez has had issues at times, but he's given nothing by the OC. Every game is
> the same thing... just follow the plan - - the same plan - - against every team.
> For instance, is it Sanchez' fault that when Shonn is running well, Schott removes him for
> no reason, to put in LT? That's the plan... doesn't matter the situation, or how
> productive a player is... just follow the plan... that every DC knows.
> Last season, Sanchez single-handedly lost games, while this season I can't think of one.
> And he's won a few for us.
> Sanchez is not this offense's problem. The design is.- Hide quoted text -
Grinch
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2010 21:25:08 -0800 (PST), Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> Rhodes was a pussy, but he was better in coverage than anyone this season.
> Pace is really the only rusher we have, and as such, he can be neutralized.
> And without the talent, a scheme can only go so far. Other OCs have learned to attack our
> weaknesses... and we don't have the talent, to make up for it.
>
>
>
> >much?
>
OK. So how does that make the D personnel so much worse than last
year?
>
> >>... no interior pass
> >> rush, no pass rush from the edge... the db's are not able to hold that
> >> scheme up with press coverage unless they can shorten the time the
> >> QB's have to throw the ball. when they try to go max coverage in zone,
> >> their safeties suck so bad that wont work either.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
Grinch
>....
> I wonder if Rex has encountered the thought, that keeping Schott will have an effect on
> his longevity as HC? I mean... does he ever realize that Schott may be a problem?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
If he's as smart as he's supposed to be, he's probably thinking about
how his own D giving up 45 points ... 6 TD and a FG in the first nine
drives ... and 20 yards per pass completion in the first Q as they
gave up 17 (a 68-per game rate), is a problem.
After the game he said the collapse of the D was the big problem last
night, so there is some hope that he may be as smart as he's supposed
to be.
Grinch
> On Tue, 7 Dec 2010 16:10:30 -0800 (PST), Grinch <oldna...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >On Dec 7, 11:01 am, buRford <buRf...@buR.ford.com> wrote:
>
> >>....
> >> I wonder if Rex has encountered the thought, that keeping Schott will have an effect on
> >> his longevity as HC? I mean... does he ever realize that Schott may be a problem?- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> >If he's as smart as he's supposed to be, he's probably thinking about
> >how his own D giving up 45 points ... 6 TD and a FG in the first nine
> >drives ... and 20 yards per pass completion in the first Q as they
> >gave up 17 (a 68-per game rate), is a problem.
>
> they?
>
>
>
> >After the game he said the collapse of the D was the big problem last
> >night, so there is some hope that he may be as smart as he's supposed
> >to be.
>
When the D gives up 6 TDs and a FG in 9 drives you lose unless the O
scores more than 6 TDS and a FG in its nine drives.
So if you want to deny that the D collapse was the *BIG* problem in
this game, you have to say they lost because the O failed to score >45
points -- while playing uphill from behind all the way from before it
got to run its first play.
I mean, c'mon. If Lex Luthor set off a nuclear bomb at the
Meadowlands you'd say, "yeah, but you're ignoring Schott..."
Harlan Lachman
<b08dba78-b5cc-4b9d...@k14g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
Grinch <oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote:
No. This is silly Grinch.
If the Offense moves the ball down the field and scores (and specials
make kicks and punt further than twelve yards), it not only impacts on
the other team's D, it minimizes time the other team can score, puts
pressure on them, etc. There is no way the Pats would have scored 45
points had the offense performed as other teams had against this defense.
harlan
eric
> In article
> <b08dba78-b5cc-4b9d-9856-9d3dc62f0...@k14g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
The Jets collapse was a complete team effort. The defense, offense and
special teams all made their contribution to it.
But - since the Jets are supposedly a defense oriented team, I'd
consider it to be the job of the defense to pick up the slack on
occasion when the other two squads made a mistake. Did that happen?
Nope.
cd
> season, and they'd wear down Ds... not this year.
> Against a good offense, especially when your offense has been impotent for 3/4 of the
> season, you want to try to control the clock... and wear down their D.
> Greene was the only player, that looked good yesterday... but of course, he rarely sees 3
> plays in a row, because Sanchez removes him from the game, in favor of LT.
>
>
>
> >Do you want me to post links?
>
> >This is the thing about the anti-Schott brigade, if he passes he
> >shoulda run, if he runs he shoulda passed, we told you! :-)
>
> The thing about the Schott brigade, is that they filter what people say, through a blind
> filter, instead of actually attempting to comprehend what a person is saying.
> It's NOT about passing or rushing, it's about attacking an opponent - - taking advantage
> of situations, setting up subsequent plays, & having a coherent vision of what you're
> trying to accomplish. But you guys never go outside of your box - - it's all black and
> white - - either running or passing. To me, it's about doing what is appropriate, at a
> given point. And that changes from play-to-play. No black & white... either or... just
> what the situation dictates.
> I don't know how to be any clearer, but I suspect, if you haven't gotten yet what some of
> us are saying, you won't. All I can say, is let go of the pass or rush thing, and think
> of every situation/play in a game, calling for a different approach. The more rigid a
> coach is, not willing to flow with the game, the more frenetic the play becomes - - and
> there's no rhythm.
> You'll notice the O was starting to play well, earlier in the season, Keller was playing
> well, as was Braylon, LT, etc... then Holmes joined the team. Since, the O has sputtered.
> Schott still hasn't figured out how to effectively utilize his players. He makes things
> more complicated than they need to be.
> Last season, the run game wore out opposing Ds. This season, Sanchez has improved; LT is
> an improvement over TJ; Braylon has been focused; Shonn is steady; Keller has improved his
> blocking, & can be a force... and they've added Holmes. Yet, the offense is worse.
> If Sanchez is the liability you imagine, why then, didn't they just continue what they did
> last season, and add some passing on top of that - - blending in the new talent?
> On the other hand, the Pats totally transformed their offense, as the season progressed.
> They melded their O, to fit the players they had. And the Jets force their players to
> follow the plan... whatever it is.
>
>
>
> >If *before* next week's game y'all could get together and agree on a
> >single game plan that will be better than Schott's, that would be more
> >persuasive. There, a challenge!
>
> They should start the game with Shonn Greene as the RB, and LT as the change of pace back.
> And do what they do best, beat up opponents. Then mix in play-action... roll out
> Sanchez... get Keller involved. And make a D actually play defense, for once. I haven't
> seen a D in a long time, look even the slightest bit flustered. They know exactly what
> Schott is going to do, and he keeps doing it. If he can't come up with something new,
> then go back to basics - - what the Jets do best. It's really not complicated, Schott
> just makes it that way.
>
>
>
> >> On the other hand, Shonn Greene runs well against the Pats.
> >> So, you go hurry up, rushing Greene, then doing play-action.
> >> That puts the D on their heels.
>
> >You may have forgotten this, but the Jets were losing before Schott
> >got his first chance to make a bad call.
>
> And if the Jets scored on their first drive? Or 2nd drive? Or 3rd drive?
> Ya think that changes anything?
>
>
>
> >The Pats' first possessions went FG, TD, TD, TD, as their receivers
> >averaged *20 yards per catch*.
>
>
>
>
> >In that scenario a game plan of "Shonn up the middle" isn't going to
> >impress any D. Play action doesn't put any D on its heels when you
> >are *behind* and running the clock out on yourself. Play action only
> >works when you are even or ahead.
>
> Between all those scores, the Jets offense was on the field, n'est-ce pas?
> It's not like the Pats were given an opportunity to score 4 times, before the Jets got the
> ball.
> And that's a place that Rex should take a hit. He continually gives the ball to
> opponents, to start a game, when we win the toss. Nice to have confidence in his D, but
> maybe getting the O out their first, puts the opposition in a hole, for once.
>
>
>
> >If as the D gave up 6 TDs and a FG in its first nine possessions
> >Schott spent his time trying to get play action going, he'd a been
> >lynched. And rightly so.
>
> been 7-3 Jets... and so on.
>
>
>
> >And I do believe that you, Michael and Papa would be competing to
> >supply the rope. :-)
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Everything Schott does the Pats expect... and every D expects.- Hide quoted text -
>
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
That was a great post.
papa.carl44
"Harlan Lachman" <har...@eeivt.com> wrote in message
news:harlan-9E3EC9....@news60.forteinc.com...
You are wasting you time Harlan...he has his position, he views himself as
an expert on the issue and will not budge...no matter how ridiculous it is.
These guys are a lot like the buffoons in Congress and The White House. How
anyone can ignore the fact that if the O does anything, takes up some time
and actually scores...that is time the other team can NOT be scoring and it
also totally changes the game plan and approach the other team uses...this
is a TEAM sport and involves all three aspects of the game. They can't see
that at all. Yes...the D played terribly, and YES the O did nothing to help
that situation. I'll get ripped for saying anything that comes from having
some experience with the game...I'll be accused of all kinds of crap...but I
know what I know...and when I D is stressed and trying to regroup, a good O
will call a game that keeps them out there for a while, and hopefully moving
toward a TD...that works for the TEAM...for both sides of the ball. I knew
I shouldn't have come back to this...it is a totally pointless discussion
here. Be well, H, have a good Holiday season.
papa.carl44
"Grinch" <oldn...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:6a587793-6166-47b8...@j19g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
THEY SIMPLY PLAYED BETTER LAST YEAR !
papa.carl44
"John C TX" <johnc...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0ef7bf57-a443-4c05...@m7g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> X-No-Archive: Yes
>> What you are watching is a very poorly designed pass defense...defense in
>> general..it is all gambling...they have totally wasted their two best D
>> backs....NO pass rush...this was all smoke and mirrors, no substance.
>
> watched.
>
> I wonder how much is Rex & how much is Pettine? Doe she yank control
> when it gets bad?
It's all Rex....his father got into this crap too....they out think
themselves with all the cute schemes that are all designed on a particular
tendency of the O for down / distance / field position and time in game or
game situation....then if the O does something different they are
screwed...that is the time you go back to a base D, go back to something
that everyone knows and works...to me, it looks like they rarely do this and
they often look confused. When your big time players are the two starts
CB's and you just don't get them involved in the D, something is
wrong...then they LB's got taken out of the game too....at some point you
need to recognize the scheme is not working and have something to go back
to. OMHO...what do I know?
Grinch
> In article
> <b08dba78-b5cc-4b9d-9856-9d3dc62f0...@k14g2000pre.googlegroups.com>,
>
>
>
>
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
In principle of course your are right -- but it works exactly the
other way too.
If the D holds on those first three drives in the 1st Q then the game
is close at worst, we can use our superior running game, the running
game sets up the pass via play action etc., Sanchez has a much easier
hand to play, the weak Pats D has to defend run and pass at the same
time -- and Sanchez and Co are in the same situation in which they've
been good enough to produce 9-2 until then.
So it is symetrical -- good D protects and sets up the O, and good O
protects and sets up the D, in principle.
But in *practice*, coming into this season, to win now, which squad
has to be responsible for doing the heavy lifting? Coming into this
season off of last year, were you thinking "This year we win with our
great D!" or "This year we win with our great O!" ??
Last year the D was #1 against both run and pass, dominating as few
do.
Last year the Pass O was at the bottom of the league, with a QB ranked
#25.
So what was this year's success going to be primarily based upon??
Sanchez has shown he *can* win when the game is close so he can use
the running game, stick to the plan, not be forced to improvise.
He's also shown that with his league-bottom completion rate, and let's
say unfinished education at reading Ds, you *can't* expect him to be
the hero improvising and hurling the ball to come back from multiple
scores down against a good D waiting for him to tryt. Look at the
picks he threw Monday. Thinking he and the O should be able to do that
is delusional.
So who is responsible for keeping the game close so Sanchez can play
at his best? "The best defense in the league", to quote Rex. That's
who.
Football is a war game and there's an old military saying: you have to
win with the army you've got, not another one you'd prefer to have.
With our army, if the D on its opening possessions gives up score,
score, score, score, we're screwed. We don't have Peyton's O to lead
the comeback.
If we did have Peyton's O with last year's #1 D, then I'd say they
were equally responsible for covering each other. But we don't.
Sanchez is #25 this year too.
BTW, Peyton's in the reverse situation. How many people say the Colts
won their SB and all their division titles over the last decade
because of their D? When Peyton throws 4 picks how many people say,
"the Colts lost because of their damned defense"? The Colts started
only 6-6 this year and I've heard a lot of people say it's because
Peyton and all the injured O players are having a bad year -- I
haven't heard a single person say: If only the Colts D had sucked it
up to compensate they'd be 10-2, it's their defense's fault! Is that
fair?
Harlan Lachman
"papa.carl44" <papad...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
Thanks Papa. Birthday coming up. I am one of the few people guaranteed a
national holiday on their birthday in just about every country in the
civilized world. I would say it was a big one, but it just means I am
too old.
h
papa.carl44
I tried putting up the outside decorations today....I decided that I am not
the guy I once was because of all the surgery. Then my son calls, he tells
me that isn't it...I'm just old. Anyway...some of the stuff got up...enough
of it did, I'm done. :-) Happy Birthday ! Jan 1st?
Harlan Lachman
"papa.carl44" <papad...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
At my age, I cannot afford to wait that long. Better make it six days
earlier.
h