Football and defective behavior (Sorry, but this needs its own thread)
Michael
violent or have personality defects. Far from it. Unfortunately, all
too often, ignorant and fallacious parallels are drawn between
football and violent or defective behavior. I live in an area in NJ
that has two nationally regarded high schools as far as college
football recruitment goes. Bergen Catholic and Don Bosco. Both of
those schools are "prep schools" and they are also just as highly
regarded for academic standards. People that cant read, write or
maintain a high academic standard don't get into these schools. Last
year, there was a first round NFL draft pick that came from BC. They
put almost their entire compliment of kids into college due to
academic standards and plenty for athletics. You will find few if any
real trouble makers coming from these schools and all of them have
brains enough to earn grades to get into college. Plenty of good
football players canbe found in both of those schools. In some other
"football factory" high schools that are located in say texas, ohio,
pa, florida, ca and so on... They take kids with problems, do little
or nothing to educate them, put a ball in their hands and then, the
system makes the bull shit parallels between football and defective
behavior. "He's gonna be good at ball because he's violent, troubled
or disadvantaged." Once and for all, you don't have to be a fuck-up
or violent or mad at the world to make a top notch football player.
Putting a ball in some kids hands and then excusing an encouraging
further defective behavior is bad news. There are lots of problems
but NOT because screw-ups make much more likely football players. The
problem is ignorant self serving fools are running athletic programs.
The old cannard about football keeping kids out of trouble or giving
them an oppertunity has been told time and time again. What is
actually done in practice all too often in these football factories is
the exact opposite. The wrong lessons are taught. So much so, as a
matter of course, people see violent and defective social behavior as
a bfoq of a pro ball player.
Glenn Greenstein
OK, I just did some research on BC. The fact is that only Brian
Cushing is the only person that went to that school and became an NFL
player. Great sample size there Michael. What school is next? Lawrence
High school with Lyle Alzado?
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make the
best ball players ???
MZ
Has the term "straw man" ever crossed your path before?
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
Interesting...
I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly just
right.
Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into great
wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the rainbow.
If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those countless
thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when pro
ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims some
pain and suffering.
Glenn Greenstein
What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the place. I
thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to save
human kind.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
If you want to continue draw breath you have some degree of potential
violence in you. My point is that it is ignorant to think that
violent and troubled people are likely to make the best football
players... Hence... People expect as a matter of course that ball
players are going to be violent and defective. As such, it
perpetuates at atmosphere of tolerance and denial. So what that
Santonio or some other ball player does violent things off the field.
That is why he's such a good ball player. He's an animal. You gotta
be an animal to play ball.
Do you have any friends or family members that have been in combat or
in law enforcement ??? Do you have any idea what soldiers are trained
to do ??? Have you ever seen any footage of soldiers training with
bladed weapons ??? How about cops training to apprehend violent and
armed criminals.
Now... As a matter of course, do we expect that Marine Corps soldier
or Police Officer to be likely to use criminal violence when ever they
felt socially challenged ??? Gee... You gotta be a real animal to
shoot the enemy or take down a violent criminal. No wonder we hear
about soldiers beating people up in the streets every day.
Glenn Greenstein
Michael, you are taking comments I made about isolated incidents and
making it as if I painted the whole league with the same brush. In
Holmes case his inner violence spilled over into everyday life and I
never said it was OK, I just said it is understandable for it to
happen to a guy with his occupation. I really wish you would stop
putting words in my moth and start reading what I write.
Now to your point I do think the best players have a higher degree of
violence in them than the average person, this doesn't meran they
don't have the ability to keep that in check when they are not on the
football field. I really don't know how you take a simple observation
about that and turn it into something like Charles Manson would have
made a great Ted Bundy would have made a great football player.
Glenn Greenstein
BTW, it's nice to see you are now agreeing that violence is not just
connected to criminal activity.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
Given that you reject my definition of "violence" I've switched to
using "criminal violence" for the sake of expedient communication.
Obviously, you have a broad view of what "violence" is as most others
do. My definition of it is the novel one.
MZ
You're all over the map here, Michael. But at least you're not trying
to rewrite the definition of violent anymore.
Michael
No... What you and half of the world are doing is more like you are
saying you "expect" things to happen with ball players because
football is... oooooooh violent. I keep pointing out that you don't
have to be at all violent in a criminal sense to be a ball player at
any level. The system is fucked up with denial and lack of regard for
education and self improvement while at the same time extolling the
virtues of character building and offering opportunity. Still..Lots
or people in the system are actually good teachers and take measures
to. see that ball programs are run at their best. When a team or
program unabashedly takes on repeat offenders for the sake of winning,
it perpetuates what is worst about sports. I'm not interested in
winning at all costs. The Jets did not have to take one multiple
trouble makers. What message is that sending to the fans ??? What
kind of organization is the Jets ??? It may not bother you or the
other fans, but I think setting bad examples in front of the media
like the Jets just did has far reaching effects. Negative ones. I
state this and what do I get ??? More of the same bull shit about
ball players all being defective and violent as is what is needed and
expected in their line of work.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
Please don't fault me if cognitive thinking is not one of your
specialties.
MZ
Don't lash out at me just because your panties are all in a twist.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jeez... Of all people... A Patriots fan not agreeing on the value of
team character issues. I know that the Pats took in a few problem
cases BECAUSE THEY COULD, but dont you think that building on
character trumps a team that builds on talent considerations to the
exclusion of character ??? I mean, really...Look at what I am saying
about the value of setting examples... If the Pats did not have
character and real good leaders, how would they have done with
Moss ??? What if Moss went to the Cowboys and not the Patriots ???
See what I mean ???
MZ
You need to take a chill pill and come back when you're more level-headed.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
More denial...
Glenn Greenstein
So now you are telling me what I was saying?
Glenn Greenstein
Must be a fictional "novel".
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
ok... lets add on mike vick and packman to round things out...
they wont cost much
Glenn Greenstein
If Moss went to a Cowboys team that was winning and a SB contender, he
would have been just the same. Come on, he was on the Raiders.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
the vikes were in contention too, no ???
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
oh, yes.. that is what you were saying alright.
it would appear to me that you have overlooked or ignored what i said.
MZ
Yeah, he sucked on the Vikings.
You draw conclusions way too readily, Michael. And then you refuse to
budge from those conclusions. A guy says something you don't like to
the press, and all of a sudden he's a troublemaker. Moss is a team
captain in New England. He's one of the hardest working players on the
team. The same things were true in Minnesota too. But he's an asshole
to the media, even to this day. They bait him and he bites every time.
In your mind, that means he'd only be productive on a team with high
character guys (whatever that means...).
Please, whatever you do, don't watch Fox News. You'll believe
everything they say too and turn right wing on us.
Michael
Sure.. and he never lets up on plays and he never ran over a cop and
he never said one single thing to distract his teamates... he's
footballs counterpart to derek jeter
> Please, whatever you do, don't watch Fox News. You'll believe
> everything they say too and turn right wing on us.- Hide quoted text -
fox news ??? never...
i get it... nothing to protest... lets just accept the trouble
makers... boys will be boys... why bother...
MZ
Yeah, he sucks. The Pats never should have traded for him.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
I got exactly the type of responses here I expected regarding the
larger point of my original post. Denial, misdirection,
understatement, insults. The manifestations of media inspired learned
helplessness.
MZ
That's because no one here is as smart as you, Michael.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
additional insults... very good...
MZ
I'm sure they won't mind.
Glenn Greenstein
I don't think they were winning when they traded him. He was still
productive either way.
Glenn Greenstein
OK, non of the players the Jets have taken on are convicted felons.
You are now comparing apples and oranges.
Glenn Greenstein
Actually not, and I thank you for translating my thoughts for me. I
would have never realized my position otherwise.
Michael
No convictions yet, Glenn. With Santonio, that may change...
Now, Glenn and Mark... On to the larger point...
I am saying this. You dont have to be mean spirited, violent in a
"criminal" sense, immature or unsavory in any way in order to be a
good football player. Hence, it is folly to make any excuses for
people based on the fact that football is a physical game. Why in the
hell are you guys resisting this ??? All you have left to do is agree
with me or mock my shitty spelling and grammar.
Past that I will say the best thing you can do to combat such problems
is to deter them. There is a guy right now someplace in high school
or college that is more brazen because he just saw what the Jets did.
He knows the public/fans/leage/university allows fuck-up'sto continue
offending so long as they can provide a service. Beat a woman, take
drugs, assault who ever... You dont have to worry about getting
punishment or having your career ended. You'll still get your money
and an NFL team uniform. Get out there and let it all hang out. Your
it and you always will be.
MZ
> Now, Glenn and Mark... On to the larger point...
>
> I am saying this. You dont have to be mean spirited, violent in a
> "criminal" sense, immature or unsavory in any way in order to be a
> good football player.
And no one said you did.
Are we done?
Michael
if you get on board with me and agree that excuses need to stop being
made for poor and violent off the field behavior based on the fact
MZ
No one's making excuses. Settle down, Michael.
papa.carl44
"Glenn Greenstein" <lex...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:507cf357-03da-4cf0...@s9g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Wait a minute...that place is a POWERHOUSE of NFL players....Scott Brunner
too !
papa.carl44
"Michael" <mjd...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:202a1d03-a494-4328...@z3g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
Are you objecting to the larger point of my post ???
Social defectives and people that cant read or write too well make the
best ball players ???
Whoever said they make the "best" ball players. I never did. What I said
was that guys who play football tend to be less offended by violent behavior
and even those with brains and grades have sometimes had a reputation for
some rowdy behavior. I went to a school where you had to have some decent
stats to hang in with the rest of the student body, academics I mean, and
there were a lot of very bright guys with majors in business or science of
whatever who raised a lot of hell and got into a lot of trouble, and we had
a football coach who tolerated very little back in the day. I think you
have read way to0 much into this and made some gross generalizations.
BTW...I've coached against both of the fine schools you referenced...and
coached at a school who competes with them in championship games. My former
employer has some great kids, lots of them, and academic standards just as
stringent as either BC or DB.....AND....there are some football players
(historically) that do some things we would rather they didn't do....I was
one of the coaches who had to deal with it. Boys will be boys. Read the
articles about Carl Nicks of the Saints and how he has matured and changed.
The kids who get to go to DB and BC aren't exactly from a massive pool of
disadvantaged guys either. I can tell you this...when someone is "hungry"
and sees very little opportunity excepting some particular behavior, be it
football, boxing or crime....they will work very hard at that limited
opportunity. Where did you read that social defectives make the best
football players. The fact is, a lot of very bright kids with a lot of
talent have not had the opportunity to grow in ways that allowed them to
present themselves in ways other kids can.
papa.carl44
On Apr 15, 1:39 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 15, 12:47 pm, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Apr 15, 12:31 pm, Glenn Greenstein <lexa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 15, 11:59 am, Michael <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> > > > > Michael wrote:
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
>
> > > > I was expecting Pavlov's media dogs to show up. I was exactly just
> > > > right.
>
> > > > Obviously, when the media tells that feel good story of a
> > > > disadvantaged and troubled kid that was saved and thrust into great
> > > > wealth due to football, that is all that you see. Not the
> > > > thousands... EVERY YEAR that don't quite make it over the rainbow.
> > > > If real consideration was given to what I'm saying, those countless
> > > > thousands might have a much better chance at a better life when pro
> > > > ball didnt work out. Not to mention, spare their future victims some
> > > > pain and suffering.
>
> > > What exactly is your point here. You seem to be all over the place. I
> > > thought the argument was if you are an NFL player you need to have
> > > some degree of violence in you. Now we seem to be on a crusade to save
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
football is... oooooooh violent. I keep pointing out that you don't
have to be at all violent in a criminal sense to be a ball player at
any level. The system is fucked up with denial and lack of regard for
education and self improvement while at the same time extolling the
virtues of character building and offering opportunity. Still..Lots
or people in the system are actually good teachers and take measures
to. see that ball programs are run at their best. When a team or
program unabashedly takes on repeat offenders for the sake of winning,
it perpetuates what is worst about sports. I'm not interested in
winning at all costs. The Jets did not have to take one multiple
trouble makers. What message is that sending to the fans ??? What
kind of organization is the Jets ??? It may not bother you or the
other fans, but I think setting bad examples in front of the media
like the Jets just did has far reaching effects. Negative ones. I
state this and what do I get ??? More of the same bull shit about
ball players all being defective and violent as is what is needed and
expected in their line of work.
You are passing judgement on what people say and have some preconceived
ideas. Are you aware that the incidents of violence against family or
people close to a returning soldier are way higher than the norm? Are you
aware of the rates of alcoholism and behavioral issues for professionals who
have to work in very dangerous and violent situations? That does not make
them bad people, it is an indicator of the stresses of a particular job.
People who are rewarded for acting in a violent way can sometimes have
problems isolating that violence and / or that behavior. It isn't with
everyone, and it is most likely a minority of those involved, but it
happens. My experience was there was a HELL of a lot of difference between
a QB and a LB in terms of their potential to act out. That said, most of
the LB's I worked with were quite bright and could think quickly. I'd say a
D lineman would be more likely to have some issues.....certain positions are
taught to react, don't over think it. If you can't leave that on the field
it can be a problem. Then individual temperment plays a huge role, and it
doesn't matter where the person came from or past experiences. Some guys
are hot heads, others aren't. Some very tough guys play "quiet", seem to go
inside themselves to get the job done and others are raging bulls, screaming
and carrying on to get the same results. All that aside, it is a violent
game, if you can leave it on the field....great. But a few can't. That
fact does NOT make them non-readers or social defectives or whatever else
you seem to want to call them. When I was coaching, I never was able to
"come down" after a game...after a night game, I'd still be awake at 6
AM.....I was always just way too wired to stop. That was my problem, and I
was not alone in it either. I played with a coached guys who, if they lost,
would not be in any kind of shape to act very sociable. People are very
different and very interesting.
Tutor
Alzado went to Lawrence?
papa.carl44
Seems to me there are a bunch of guys in the US Senate, Congress and running
big corporations who have and give the same message. As a matter of fact,
the former Vice President got a pass on this too....so maybe some guys in
street gangs should figure they can keep rumbling?
papa.carl44
Michael, I don't know what you do for a living. But if you should commit a
crime...should you have your ability to earn that living, your current job,
taken away from you...be barred from the profession? Of course, if you keep
it up, and it becomes such a problem your lifestyle gets in the way...you
get to go to jail or your employer can just tell you to hit the bricks.
But....are you saying if a football player acts out, screws up...he should
lose his ability to earn a living at what he does best? And BTW...I don't
like people like Michal Vick or Pacman or any other guy who carries that
baggage. But, if, as in Vick's case...he payed his penalty....I can not
justify keeping him from earning a living.. Let me know how guys like Pete
Rose fit into all of this?
Michael
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
If you excuse or make little of a ball player that acts out especially
at the pro level because football is a "violent" game you are making a
horse shit assosiation. I dont need years of coaching experiece to
know that.
>The fact is, a lot of very bright kids with a lot of
> talent have not had the opportunity to grow in ways that allowed them to
> present themselves in ways other kids can.- Hide quoted text -
And showing tollerance at the pro level to violence is a good way to
teach them how to act ???
Michael
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
Papa... Agree 100 % that the understanding and tollerance level should
be at a very fair level for younger people. No argument from me.
papa.carl44
On Apr 15, 2:19 pm, MZ <m...@nospam.void> wrote:
> Michael wrote:
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > specialties.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jeez... Of all people... A Patriots fan not agreeing on the value of
team character issues. I know that the Pats took in a few problem
cases BECAUSE THEY COULD, but dont you think that building on
character trumps a team that builds on talent considerations to the
exclusion of character ??? I mean, really...Look at what I am saying
about the value of setting examples... If the Pats did not have
character and real good leaders, how would they have done with
Moss ??? What if Moss went to the Cowboys and not the Patriots ???
See what I mean ???
Character issues stopped being important in this culture a long time
ago.....Jimmy Swaggart, Slick Willie Clinton and Georgie Boy
Bush....character???????? Do you think Jerry Jones has "character" ? Is
Donald Trump a principaled person with a high degree of integrity and
character? Do most of the TV talk show clowns show character? or do they
say whatever gets ratings?
papa.carl44
"MZ" <ma...@nospam.void> wrote in message
news:QuGdndTC_IId-FrW...@giganews.com...
And maybe even get violent....Hell, Sarah wants us to all get our guns ! :-)
Michael
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
i'm with you here... the white collar guys that offend should all see
the inside of a jail cell..
Michael
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
yes... and two wrongs dont make a right... neither do twenty wrongs...
papa.carl44
Good....because a lot of these guys coming into the NFL are effectively
"very young" and socially immature. I've been in the position of taking a
bunch of them on a road trip and being aware I needed to prep a few kids on
how to act in the resteraunt we would use, or how to act at the hotel we
stayed at....they just hadn't had those experiences in their own lives.
That was not their fault. A lot of these guys were identified early on as
potential stars, when they were in Pop Warner even. They had junior high
coaches who used them to pave their own career paths to a better job, they
had way too many people covering up some of their mistakes...all kinds of
things, and a lot of them just didn't have the life experiences to equip
them to go out into the world with several millions of dollars at their
disposal. And....some are just not very nice people...but you know what,
several of the guys I coached with wern't either. And when I left coaching,
I had a CFO at the hospital system I worked for who should have a special
place in Hell....but, that's life. I learned a long time ago I don't have
to like somebody to work with them, and I don't have to act like them
either. Apparently, Rex sees something in these guys. Bill Parcells did
too. Maybe Rex can do what Tuna did. Keshawn seems to be a gentleman
these days. That was not the story when he was first a Jet. And how about
Brian Cox? I would have had a real hard time putting up with him before BP
got into his head. Let's see what Rex does with these guys.
papa.carl44
Did he get arrested? Did he get fined? Does he pay a price for his
behavior according to the standards the league sets up? That is what we go
by. I don't tolerate or condone the behavior. But I'll be damned if I'm
going to pass the final judgement on someone. Let's take the principal you
suggest to all jobs then. Screw up, act out, commit a violent act...and you
are on the streets, jobless and homeless.....I think we'd have a lot of
politicians involved in that gang then.
Michael
wrote:
<SNIP>
> Papa... Agree 100 % that the understanding and tollerance level should
> be at a very fair level for younger people. No argument from me.
>
> Good....because a lot of these guys coming into the NFL are effectively
> "very young" and socially immature.
Of course... And would you not agree that in both high school and
college there are plenty of coaches that are not very good
teachers ??? Some that might even revel a bit in a kid that shows
signs of trouble ??? Perhaps looking at troubled or violent kid as
nothing more than a cash cow ??? Are there not high school and college
coaches that know all about roids and who's takin' 'em ??? Turn a
blind eye cause it is good for your record and good for the kids
future aspirations in the nfl ??? It is such abuses at all levels
that I'm talking about. Is it possible that a guy that screws up in
the NFL does so because he did not have a good coach like you ??? Is
it posslble that they continue to act out because they seel little or
no consequences to those that do ???
>I've been in the position of taking a
> bunch of them on a road trip and being aware I needed to prep a few kids on
> how to act in the resteraunt we would use, or how to act at the hotel we
> stayed at....they just hadn't had those experiences in their own lives.
> That was not their fault. A lot of these guys were identified early on as
> potential stars, when they were in Pop Warner even. They had junior high
> coaches who used them to pave their own career paths to a better job, they
> had way too many people covering up some of their mistakes...all kinds of
> things, and a lot of them just didn't have the life experiences to equip
> them to go out into the world with several millions of dollars at their
> disposal. And....some are just not very nice people...but you know what,
> several of the guys I coached with wern't either. And when I left coaching,
> I had a CFO at the hospital system I worked for who should have a special
> place in Hell....but, that's life. I learned a long time ago I don't have
> to like somebody to work with them, and I don't have to act like them
> either.
I think that is a lesson that we all learn.
>Apparently, Rex sees something in these guys. Bill Parcells did
> too. Maybe Rex can do what Tuna did. Keshawn seems to be a gentleman
> these days. That was not the story when he was first a Jet. And how about
> Brian Cox? I would have had a real hard time putting up with him before BP
> got into his head. Let's see what Rex does with these guys.
Yes... Lets see... I hope for the best... I still see that this can be
seen as setting a bad example...
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
Do they pay the price according to the standards that the rest of us
do ??? In general, no. They have money and legal resources assigned
to them that all but ensures all but the most vile get away with
serious crime. Wanna bet there have been a bunch of assault and rape
victims that were paid off to shut up ??? Have any idea what goes on
at some div1 colleges ??? Can you for one second tell me that there
are no div1 football programs dont do things to promote kids gettig
the idea that they are immune to consequences ??? And if you commit a
single violent act in the workplace or on campus it is my opinion
that you should be out.
papa.carl44
<SNIP>
"Good Examples" are gone. They left town quite a while ago. When the very
powers that control our financial lives can run a huge scam, and elected
officials are flat out bought and sold, corporations pay little or no taxes
and Wall Street can sell crap that doesn't even really exist....the train
has left the station. Why should some guys getting the crap kicked out of
them, taking incredible physical abuse be the last bastion of a "Good
Example" ? It's sad, but it is what it is. Tebow is a supposed good
example...but frankly, I think his pious attitude goes too far the other
direction. Whatever happened to quiet confidence where you just did your
job and shut up, lived your life and let others live theirs? Eveybody has a
freakin opinion now. I try and run a 501c3, and have some great folks who
volunteer tons of time and talent to make it happen. We give away every
nickle we raise....but damn, you should hear all the crap we get hurled at
us. I've had some clown try and find out if I draw a salary (I told him to
look at my 1997 Subaru), and we have all kinds of people assume we do this
for personal gain. The fact is they know nothing about what we do, the
cause we work for...but that doesn't stop them. Everybody that can tweet,
or Facebook or Myspace or whatever is an expert today. So, just like people
don't know what the expenses of a family whose child went through a
transplant and what insurance does and doesn't pay....I don't know all the
facts about what some guy did or didn't do. They pay cops and judges to
solve that and if the League thinks somebody went too far, they can do their
thing. When I am honest and take a good look at it....half the guys I
played ball with were not people I'd want to hang with today and I only have
a few close friends left over from my coaching days too. I knew a couple of
them that wern't such "Good Examples" too. :-) Perhaps I wasn't on an
occasion or two.
papa.carl44
Agreed...but the only person I can do anything about is me....and that's
what I need to worry about. If I don't like somebody enough, I just won't
go see them play. I do that with a couple musicians I know.
papa.carl44
Does John Ensign get treated the same way you or I do? Does any big time
celebrity? No...that's a function of what we have created in our culture,
if we want to blame someone we need to look first in the mirror
collectively. Assault and rape victims paid to shut up????? Do you mean
like the Gov of NY ? As for violence in D I schools? Do you think steroids
might just play a little bit of a role in any of this?
Michael
wrote:
> "Michael" <mjd1...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>
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Jeeez... so what should we all do, just throw in the towel ??? dont
offer any protest ??? I see good examples every day... If I see bad
ones, I do what is in my power to correct them. I think you do too.
You've been known here to protest agaisnt social injustice and offer
possible solutions.
Michael
Yes... And that is part of the reason I am running my trap here. I
pay for tickets and go to games, so I'm part of it too. I also want
things to change for the better. You dont have to ignore or accept
defective behavior to have a college program or a pro league.
Assault and rape victims paid to shut up????? Do you mean
> like the Gov of NY ? As for violence in D I schools? Do you think steroids
> might just play a little bit of a role in any of this?-
Yes ! And the people turning their backs and condoning it also have a
part in it when guys leave college for the pros having learned all the
wrong lessons. Even bigger problem with the ones who dont get to the
pros after rolling the dice. That is what I have been pissing and
moaning about. It is true people need a fair chance to learn and grow
up. That does not mean by any reason that you cant draw the line or
point out flaws in the sytem and flaws in individuals.
papa.carl44
What I do is for me...I make sure I'm doing the right thing. I avoid people
who I don't want to associate with. But I'm not going to go to some
employer and tell them to get rid of a guy because in my judgement he is a
bad apple and not a good example. I think people like some of these guys
( read Pacman especially) are probably never going to change. I also find
Mike Tyson a very interesting person, even with all the things he did.
People are complex. I absolutely think Santonio should own up to taking
care of the kids he has with two women...be a man and do what is right. But
I accept that there have been people like that in the game for a long time.
Did you ever meet any of the guys from way back in the day? They were not
such choir boys. I just think there are more ways to get into trouble
today, and a lot more attention paid to it. I watched less pro ball last
season than at any time in my life, part of that is the stuff that has
happened to the game, but the trends were always there. When I was playing
in college we had an incident that resulted in five top players being tossed
out of school....today they would probably get a pass of some sort, but that
is what has happened. All I can do is take care of me and mine, as for all
the "other" pros in all walks of life...yeah, I think a lot of them should
go to prison.....especially a lot of people in the financial world. But the
topic was about violence.....football has always had an element of people
involved that couldn't keep the violence to the field. I sure knew a few of
them.
MZ
Holy crap, you need a break Michael. Earlier today you were talking
about how players can separate violence from their jobs just as easily
as people in non-violent professions, and implied that guys like Holmes
were the exception. Now you're saying there are a bunch of players who
have been involved in Holmes-like (or, rather, Roethlisberger-like)
activities. Both Glenn and I said you were all over the map on this issue.
Glenn Greenstein
yeah he did, I just didn't know Brunner went there as well. I also
went to Lawrence. Lyle was sort of a God there.
Michael
>
> - Show quoted text -
Mark... You know full well that a lot of my posts are diffuse and
provocative. I think out loud and off the top quite often but hadly
ever without some substance. For myself, if I see a post that does
not interest me, I dont get involved in it.
MZ
Fair enough.
Tutor
>
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>
> something.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
well the above reply was form me, not from my better half. LOL.
in the meantime a shameless plug: spookymoonart.com
papa.carl44
"Glenn Greenstein" <lex...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:0701c200-f9b4-4d92...@u31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
Different Lawrence....Alzado, Lawrence NY....Brunner, Lawrence NJ......