Re: Jets defense may be even better than most people realize. Some interesting stats.
Michael
> From Kerry Byrne's column in SI.com:
>
> "Like his odd duck old man, Rex has delivered the goods. He promised
> Jets fans an ass-kicking defense. And, in his first year with the team,
> he's delivered an ass-kicking defense.
>
> ...That unit is almost singularly responsible for lifting a team with a
> dysfunctional rookie quarterback and an odd duck rookie head coach into
> the playoffs.
>
> Here's a look at how the Jets stacked up in several key defensive
> indicators last year under Eric Mangini and this year under the Odd
> Duck:
>
> The 2008 Jets ranked 22nd in Defensive Passer Rating (88.1).
> The 2009 Jets are No. 1 (58.8).
> That's a stunning improvement of nearly 30 points in this critical
> indicator of defensive success. That's borderline unprecedented.
>
> The 2008 Jets ranked 23rd in touchdown passes allowed (23).
> The 2009 Jets are No. 1 (8).
> In other words, the Jets were torched for three touchdowns passes every
> two games last year. This year? Just one TD pass every two games.
>
> The 2008 Jets ranked 16th in total defense (329.4 YPG).
> The 2009 Jets are No. 1 (252.3).
>
> The 2008 Jets ranked 18th in scoring defense (22.2 PPG).
> The 2009 Jets are No. 1 (14.8 PG).
> We're not math majors, but that looks like a decline of 33 percent in
> scoring against the Jets this year. Not impressed? Just remember the
> acidic bile that ate away at your stomach lining when your retirement
> fund lost 33 percent in the fall and winter of 2008-09.
>
> The 2008 Jets ranked 13th in points allowed vs. Quality Opponents
> (22.7).
> The 2009 Jets are No. 1 in points allowed vs. Quality Opponents (13.7).
> In other words, the Odd Duck's defense has improved even more
> dramatically against good teams than it has against your ordinary,
> average, run-of-the-mill teams.
>
> The 2008 Jets ranked 29th in pass defense (234.9 YPG).
> The 2009 Jets are No. 1 (153.7).
> Yup, another big turnaround. It's like two different teams out there.
> And, yes, the NFL's shutdown cornerback du jour, Darrelle Revis, started
> all 16 games for both teams.
>
> The 2008 Jets ranked 18th in passing yards per attempt allowed (7.0
> YPA).
> The 2009 Jets are No. 1 (5.4 YPA).
> Wow, 5.4 YPA passing the ball against the Jets. There were a handful of
> players this year who averaged more than 5.4 YPA running the ball:
> Jamaal Charles (5.9 YPA), Felix Jones (5.9) and Chris Johnson (5.6), to
> name three notables from the 2009 season.
>
> The 2008 Jets ranked 15th in third-down defense (61.4%).
> The 2009 Jets are No. 1 (68.5%).
> Call us brilliant, but forcing opponents to punt sure seems like one
> good way to keep them out of the end zone.
>
> We don't care how odd your coach is, that's called delivering the
> goods."
>
> --
> graybeard
all the need to do is increase their amount of take-away's
MZ
Unbelievable. I remember asking this offseason what it would mean about
Mangini if the Jets D got considerably better. Never did I think they
would be #1.
Although, in fairness to Mangini, the Jets did make a couple of real
good moves this offseason. Leonhard was a huge addition, Scott too,
Lito, and even Douglas was a significant upgrade. But still... there's
a clear difference in the entire defensive approach, and that's got to
be responsible for much of it, if not most. Mangini's a pretender.
Grinch
========
Jets defense....
Advanced NFL Stats
http://www.advancednflstats.com/
2009 .......... 2008
Defense #1 ... #12
v run #4 ... # 6
v pass #1 ... #15
===========
Football Outsiders
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/
2009 .......... 2008
Defense #1 ... #14
v run #8 ... # 7
v pass #1 ... #18
=============
The big thing Rex did was run the pass defense up from mediocrity to
solid #1 in just one season -- and somehow he did it without much of
a pass rush.
FOers has the Jets pass rush sack rate as only 14th, actually a bit
down from 2008 when it was 12th.
So Rex ramped up the pass D with coverage, confusion, magic
incantations, I dunno -- but give him credit, he did it.
MZ
Pass rush looks a lot better to me. Sack numbers are only an indirect
measure of it. Does FO at least have a hurry/knockdown stat?
Harlan Lachman
graybeard <gray...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:42:21 -0500 MZ <ma...@nospam.void> wrote:
>
> >Unbelievable. I remember asking this offseason what it would mean about
> >Mangini if the Jets D got considerably better. Never did I think they
> >would be #1.
> >
> >Although, in fairness to Mangini, the Jets did make a couple of real
> >good moves this offseason. Leonhard was a huge addition, Scott too,
> >Lito, and even Douglas was a significant upgrade. But still... there's
> >a clear difference in the entire defensive approach, and that's got to
> >be responsible for much of it, if not most. Mangini's a pretender.
>
> This is why I was opposed to Mangini from the beginning. He simply did
> not have the credentials to either attract these kinds of players or to
> motivate them to play at the top of their game for him.
>
> Here are some more interesting stats, comparing the Browns' defense from
> 2008 to 2009:
>
> Total Defense (Yards Allowed)
> 2008 26th
> 2009 31st
>
> Total Defense (Points Allowed)
> 2008 16th
> 2009 21st
>
> Rushing Defense
> 2008 28th
> 2009 28th
>
> Passing Defense
> 2008 14th
> 2009 29th
>
> With a so-called defensive oriented head coach like Mangini, wouldn't
> you expect at least some kind of improvement, instead of regression in
> almost all areas? "Pretender" is right. If Eric stays on as HC of the
> Browns (which I find unlikely), I wonder what will happen the first time
> he tries to control what Holmgren says to the press?
No. Mangini's better at other things. He weeds out the crap players and
gets extra draft picks. If he is let go, the next coach will benefit
from his cleaning house and stockpiling picks. Cleveland is a better
team for Mangini's so far brief tenure.
Mangini is too cautious to coach an aggressive go for broke defense that
can dominate but just as easily lose games (see Fish and Falcon's game).
He tends to get the as much as possible out of a team (one win more with
less talent in Cle and the same record as Rex who had Leonard, Scott,
Douglas and Braylon). I doubt he can ever win it all because to do so
requires something extra. But...
In fact, if Holmgren wants to set things up intelligently, he keeps
Mangini in on a tight leash, brings in his own OC, and fixes the Qb and
offense.
If there is a lock out as I expect, he saves a fortune. If it turns
south too quickly, he coaches for part of the year. But, I think a
Holmgren - Mangini pairing is actually a pretty good one.
harlan
MZ
Wait, you think Cleveland's talent was less? And the Jets are better
than they were last year, and arguably with less overall talent (Favre
vs. Sanchez).
> In fact, if Holmgren wants to set things up intelligently, he keeps
> Mangini in on a tight leash, brings in his own OC, and fixes the Qb and
> offense.
>
> If there is a lock out as I expect, he saves a fortune. If it turns
> south too quickly, he coaches for part of the year. But, I think a
> Holmgren - Mangini pairing is actually a pretty good one.
Mangini's only shot in the NFL is as a coordinator. He needs someone
above him to veto his stupidity. Holmgren can't do it on gameday.
Glenn Greenstein
> Harlan Lachman wrote:
> > graybeard <graybe...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
In a year, Holmgren will be the Browns coach.
Grinch
Eric proved his smarts by losing at a frachise-recrord rate until his
his owner acted to dump him, and *then* winning four straight.
Although ... like Weis at ND ... sign a big multi-year contract, get
yourself fired right away, take the buyout, walk away a
multi-millionaire...
"Mangini reportedly has three years and $11.7 million left on a
four-year deal."
http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2010/01/07/mangini-leaves-browns-headquarters-without-word/
...maybe not entirely dim after all.
Belichick's former assistants may not have done so well as HCs in the
W-L department, but they haven't done badly at all $$$$-wise.
Harlan Lachman
MZ <ma...@nospam.void> wrote:
Yes I do. Favre was hurt. Sanchez was not. Our LB core is better with
Harris a year older.
>
> > In fact, if Holmgren wants to set things up intelligently, he keeps
> > Mangini in on a tight leash, brings in his own OC, and fixes the Qb and
> > offense.
> >
> > If there is a lock out as I expect, he saves a fortune. If it turns
> > south too quickly, he coaches for part of the year. But, I think a
> > Holmgren - Mangini pairing is actually a pretty good one.
>
> Mangini's only shot in the NFL is as a coordinator. He needs someone
> above him to veto his stupidity. Holmgren can't do it on gameday.
he will never be a coordinator again -- unless it is for a very
aggressive Offensive coach who needs a conservative DC. He may end up as
a scout or GM. He is not a great teacher and too conservative to be
useful.
Holmgren can counteract that.
harlan
MZ
I think the Jets offensive talent was a lot better last year. I think
their receiving group was better and their running game was better (due
in part to having a full season out of Washington). And although Favre
was hurt, I think I'd still take a gimpy Favre for part of the year over
Sanchez playing like a rookie for most of the year. Having a rookie QB
has really handcuffed Ryan, and I suspect Schott is getting an undue
amount of crap for it too.
Also, I don't know if it's been quantified in here, but it seems to me
that the defensive opponents have been a lot tougher this year. I read
a stat on FO the other day that said that this year Brady has faced the
toughest pass defenses that any QB has faced in 15 years, and the Jets
shared 12 games out of the schedule so I'm sure they're in the same boat.
But I'll definitely concede that the defensive personnel improved
considerably. But damn, so did the stats!
Basically, what I'm saying is that the defense improved beyond
everybody's expectations (even when we considered the upgrade at S, ILB,
CB, and DE), and the offensive problems can mostly be attributed to the
QB problem, Coles' departure, and Washington's injury.
>>> In fact, if Holmgren wants to set things up intelligently, he keeps
>>> Mangini in on a tight leash, brings in his own OC, and fixes the Qb and
>>> offense.
>>>
>>> If there is a lock out as I expect, he saves a fortune. If it turns
>>> south too quickly, he coaches for part of the year. But, I think a
>>> Holmgren - Mangini pairing is actually a pretty good one.
>> Mangini's only shot in the NFL is as a coordinator. He needs someone
>> above him to veto his stupidity. Holmgren can't do it on gameday.
>
> he will never be a coordinator again -- unless it is for a very
> aggressive Offensive coach who needs a conservative DC. He may end up as
> a scout or GM. He is not a great teacher and too conservative to be
> useful.
>
> Holmgren can counteract that.
>
> harlan
On gameday though? Mangini's decision-making was awful.
Johnctx
> aggressive Offensive coach who needs a conservative DC. He may end up as
> a scout or GM. He is not a great teacher and too conservative to be
> useful.
He could be a professional speaker to cure insomnia.
Johnctx
I said that to my Texans buddies from day one.
The Saints & especially the Broncos showed what happens when you get a
good DC. Granted, the Saints picked up a few defensive players
especially Sharper, but why is it that certain guys can change teams
dramatically on defense. I think even more than offense.
>
>
>>>> In fact, if Holmgren wants to set things up intelligently, he keeps
>>>> Mangini in on a tight leash, brings in his own OC, and fixes the Qb
>>>> and offense.
>>>> If there is a lock out as I expect, he saves a fortune. If it turns
>>>> south too quickly, he coaches for part of the year. But, I think a
>>>> Holmgren - Mangini pairing is actually a pretty good one.
>>> Mangini's only shot in the NFL is as a coordinator. He needs someone
>>> above him to veto his stupidity. Holmgren can't do it on gameday.
>>
>> he will never be a coordinator again -- unless it is for a very
>> aggressive Offensive coach who needs a conservative DC. He may end up
>> as a scout or GM. He is not a great teacher and too conservative to be
>> useful.
>>
>> Holmgren can counteract that.
>>
>> harlan
>
> On gameday though? Mangini's decision-making was awful.
I really hate that you were right about that idiot.