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How NOT to develop the QB you traded up in round one to get
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Tutor
May 17, 2012, 9:02:58 AM5/17/12
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Agree with every point
New York Jets: How NOT To Develop A Young Quarterback
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did chuckle a bit when reading this , but I would have been LOLing
if it wasn't so dead on accurate
New York Jets: How NOT To Develop A Young Quarterback
May 15th, 2012 | by Mike Donnelly |
Turn On The Jets would like to welcome our newest assistant staff
writer, Mike Donnelly on board. Mike was previously writing for You
Don’t Know Football and freelancing for his own site on the New York
Jets.
When the New York Jets made the shocking trade for Tim Tebow earlier
this offseason, people had many different takes and opinions on it.
Beyond just the normal Jets-bashing and Tebow-trashing, some people
loved the move because of Tebow’s running ability and some people
hated it, mainly due to the effect it would have on Mark Sanchez both
on and off the field. Sanchez is a fine young quarterback who has
improved each year and had a lot of success — despite what his
detractors say — so the Tebow trade was a curious one.
I did a little digging however, and found out there was a method to
the madness. If it seemed like the Jets as an organization were going
out of their way to push Sanchez to the side and stunt his
development, it’s because they were, and this was just the latest in a
series of questionable decisions. Apparently, in their never-ending
quest for more publicity, the Jets decided to see how far they can
push this thing and publish the first ever “How NOT to Develop Your
Young Quarterback” handbook. Luckily, I was able to get my hands on a
rough copy and will share some excerpts with you.
Chapter One – “What you want to do is hire a defensive Head Coach who
has no interest in the offense whatsoever. The real trick, though, is
you want to give the keys to the entire offense to an unqualified
coordinator who has had no success in the NFL at all. In our case,
that man was Brian Schottenheimer. Schotty had been here for three
years already by the time we drafted Mark, and before that he was the
quarterbacks coach in San Diego. It was during that time that Drew
Brees had the worst years of his career before moving to New Orleans
and carving out a Hall of Fame career under new coaches. We knew
Schotty would do a pretty bad job, but we had to be absolutely sure we
couldn’t let Sanchez improve at all. That’s why we also hired Matt
Cavanaugh to come in and be the QB’s coach in 2009, and that was a
major coup for us…”
Wow. If the goal was really to hire two incompetent coaches to coach
the offense and Mark Sanchez specifically, they did a great job with
these two. First, let’s start with Schottenheimer. By now everybody
knows how bad of a job he did here and that his offense was too
complicated and too ineffective. Chad Pennington even had a tough time
grasping it. Brett Favre basically ignored it. Many current players
complained about it. Let’s quickly take a look at some of Schotty’s
failures:
95.7 and 107.2. Those are Brett Favre’s QB ratings the year before and
after he worked with Schotty, respectively. His rating with Schotty?
81.0 to go along with his 22 interceptions.
Chad Pennington’s QB rating with Schotty over 2 years: 83.3. The year
he left? 97.4 and a 2nd place MVP finish. Hmm.
16 straight games, including 3 playoff contests, where he couldn’t
come up with a game plan to score a 1st quarter touchdown
58 straight weeks without a 300 yard passer between 2006 and 2010
Passing offense never finished higher than 16th in NFL
And it is not like Cavanaugh helped matters. Before coming to the Jets
to mentor Sanchez, he was the offensive coordinator at Pittsburgh
University where his claim to fame was being part of the brain trust
that decided to start Tyler Palko at QB over future NFL 1st round pick
Joe Flacco. Prior to that, he was the offensive coordinator for the
Baltimore Ravens during the era where their offensive ineptitude was
the butt of many jokes. During his last three years on the job, the
passing offense ranked 27th, 32nd, and 31st. A perfect candidate to
come in and help a young QB become a great passer! He was clearly
everything the Jets were looking for in their handbook.
Chapter 4 – “Once you’ve established that the young QB won’t get any
competent coaching, the next thing you want to do is take away
anything he’s familiar with and not let him get into any kind of
comfort zone. So what we did is change the receivers Mark would be
throwing to every season. The thinking was, if he we let him get
comfortable and grow with any receivers, his stats would improve, and
that’s a no-no. In 2011 we even took it a step further and not only
did we take away the two receivers he was most familiar with, we
replaced them with two guys who couldn’t run anymore! It was great…”
The Jets did a great job adhering to this. In 2009, the first receiver
Sanchez got comfortable with was Chansi Stuckey, so he was traded by
week 5. They brought in Braylon Edwards, though, which was actually a
great thing for Sanchez. Too great of a thing, apparently, because
just a year and a half later he was gone. In 2010, Santonio Holmes was
brought in, but due to his 4 game suspension, it took a while for him
and Sanchez to get on the same page. With the trio of Edwards, Holmes,
and Cotchery, Sanchez had an excellent, young corps of receivers to
work with. So naturally the whole thing was blown up after the 2010
season that nearly ended in a Super Bowl. Edwards was let go, Cotchery
was released, and they were replaced by the decrepit Derek Mason and
fresh from prison Plaxico Burress. The Jets apparently didn’t ask
Plaxico to work out for them or run a 40 yard dash before signing,
probably because they didn’t have a sun dial available. So not only
was Sanchez left without a deep threat, but he had to break in these
new receivers during a lockout without coaches being present. No big
deal.
Later in Chapter 4- “And just to be sure the quarterback won’t be
comfortable at all, you might want to go ahead and weaken his
offensive line a great deal. Nothing frazzles a QB more than being hit
every play, so we decided to put Wayne Hunter at tackle and back him
up with Vlad Ducasse. Doesn’t get much worse than that! Speaking of
backups, make sure you have none, so if one of your starters like Nick
Mangold does get injured, your QB will get buried…”
Well, this strategy definitely did work. Gotta give them credit.
Chapter 8 – “If you’ve come this far, it means you’ve done everything
you physically can to your QB to make sure he fails. Now it’s time to
work on the mental side and really ruin his confidence. It will be
hard to top what we did, because a guy like Tim Tebow only comes along
once in a lifetime, but if possible, you have to bring in an extremely
popular player to back up your quarterback. That way, every time he
throws an incomplete pass or messes up, the whole crowd will be
pushing for the backup to play, even if he can’t throw a forward pass!
Plus the entire media will report on every little move he makes and
make it nearly impossible for him to not crack under the pressure.
This is an important step in the process here…”
Well, they were right about it being hard for future teams to one-up
them when it comes to Tebow. In fact, I don’t think any starting QB
that has had the success Sanchez has, has ever had to deal with
something like Tim Tebow being brought in and getting on the field for
up to 20 plays per game every Sunday. The Jets really broke new ground
with this one. It was a nice touch added on also to have Matt
Cavanaugh criticize Sanchez publicly while also talking about how
wonderful Tim Tebow is. Smooth.
Look, I’m a big Mark Sanchez supporter and fan. I think he’s gotten a
bum rap, and it’s totally undeserved. People seem to forget that he
only just completed his 3rd season in the league, and is actually
ahead of where many other star players were at the same point in their
careers, just look at Drew Brees’ stats early in his career. Or even
better, look at Eli Manning, who many Giants fans wanted to run out of
town after 3 years.
There are lots of similarities between Sanchez and Eli that go beyond
just the stats. After Eli’s third year, they fired the offensive
coordinator who wasn’t using Eli to the best of his abilities and
became way too predictable. Sound familiar? They replaced him with
Kevin Gilbride, a former Head Coach who had success as an offensive
coach prior to flopping as Head Coach. Again, sound familiar? I hope
the Jets took some notes. The Giants let Eli work out his problems,
progress, and late in Year 4, Eli started to “get it”. He cut out the
silly mistakes, grasped the offense that suited his skills, and he led
them to the Super Bowl. I’m not saying that’s what will happen this
year with Mark Sanchez, but he deserves the opportunity to do so. Mark
Sanchez has proven he can handle the big stage in the past, and I
wouldn’t bet against him rising up and doing so again.
New York Jets: How NOT To Develop A Young Quarterback
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did chuckle a bit when reading this , but I would have been LOLing
if it wasn't so dead on accurate
New York Jets: How NOT To Develop A Young Quarterback
May 15th, 2012 | by Mike Donnelly |
Turn On The Jets would like to welcome our newest assistant staff
writer, Mike Donnelly on board. Mike was previously writing for You
Don’t Know Football and freelancing for his own site on the New York
Jets.
When the New York Jets made the shocking trade for Tim Tebow earlier
this offseason, people had many different takes and opinions on it.
Beyond just the normal Jets-bashing and Tebow-trashing, some people
loved the move because of Tebow’s running ability and some people
hated it, mainly due to the effect it would have on Mark Sanchez both
on and off the field. Sanchez is a fine young quarterback who has
improved each year and had a lot of success — despite what his
detractors say — so the Tebow trade was a curious one.
I did a little digging however, and found out there was a method to
the madness. If it seemed like the Jets as an organization were going
out of their way to push Sanchez to the side and stunt his
development, it’s because they were, and this was just the latest in a
series of questionable decisions. Apparently, in their never-ending
quest for more publicity, the Jets decided to see how far they can
push this thing and publish the first ever “How NOT to Develop Your
Young Quarterback” handbook. Luckily, I was able to get my hands on a
rough copy and will share some excerpts with you.
Chapter One – “What you want to do is hire a defensive Head Coach who
has no interest in the offense whatsoever. The real trick, though, is
you want to give the keys to the entire offense to an unqualified
coordinator who has had no success in the NFL at all. In our case,
that man was Brian Schottenheimer. Schotty had been here for three
years already by the time we drafted Mark, and before that he was the
quarterbacks coach in San Diego. It was during that time that Drew
Brees had the worst years of his career before moving to New Orleans
and carving out a Hall of Fame career under new coaches. We knew
Schotty would do a pretty bad job, but we had to be absolutely sure we
couldn’t let Sanchez improve at all. That’s why we also hired Matt
Cavanaugh to come in and be the QB’s coach in 2009, and that was a
major coup for us…”
Wow. If the goal was really to hire two incompetent coaches to coach
the offense and Mark Sanchez specifically, they did a great job with
these two. First, let’s start with Schottenheimer. By now everybody
knows how bad of a job he did here and that his offense was too
complicated and too ineffective. Chad Pennington even had a tough time
grasping it. Brett Favre basically ignored it. Many current players
complained about it. Let’s quickly take a look at some of Schotty’s
failures:
95.7 and 107.2. Those are Brett Favre’s QB ratings the year before and
after he worked with Schotty, respectively. His rating with Schotty?
81.0 to go along with his 22 interceptions.
Chad Pennington’s QB rating with Schotty over 2 years: 83.3. The year
he left? 97.4 and a 2nd place MVP finish. Hmm.
16 straight games, including 3 playoff contests, where he couldn’t
come up with a game plan to score a 1st quarter touchdown
58 straight weeks without a 300 yard passer between 2006 and 2010
Passing offense never finished higher than 16th in NFL
And it is not like Cavanaugh helped matters. Before coming to the Jets
to mentor Sanchez, he was the offensive coordinator at Pittsburgh
University where his claim to fame was being part of the brain trust
that decided to start Tyler Palko at QB over future NFL 1st round pick
Joe Flacco. Prior to that, he was the offensive coordinator for the
Baltimore Ravens during the era where their offensive ineptitude was
the butt of many jokes. During his last three years on the job, the
passing offense ranked 27th, 32nd, and 31st. A perfect candidate to
come in and help a young QB become a great passer! He was clearly
everything the Jets were looking for in their handbook.
Chapter 4 – “Once you’ve established that the young QB won’t get any
competent coaching, the next thing you want to do is take away
anything he’s familiar with and not let him get into any kind of
comfort zone. So what we did is change the receivers Mark would be
throwing to every season. The thinking was, if he we let him get
comfortable and grow with any receivers, his stats would improve, and
that’s a no-no. In 2011 we even took it a step further and not only
did we take away the two receivers he was most familiar with, we
replaced them with two guys who couldn’t run anymore! It was great…”
The Jets did a great job adhering to this. In 2009, the first receiver
Sanchez got comfortable with was Chansi Stuckey, so he was traded by
week 5. They brought in Braylon Edwards, though, which was actually a
great thing for Sanchez. Too great of a thing, apparently, because
just a year and a half later he was gone. In 2010, Santonio Holmes was
brought in, but due to his 4 game suspension, it took a while for him
and Sanchez to get on the same page. With the trio of Edwards, Holmes,
and Cotchery, Sanchez had an excellent, young corps of receivers to
work with. So naturally the whole thing was blown up after the 2010
season that nearly ended in a Super Bowl. Edwards was let go, Cotchery
was released, and they were replaced by the decrepit Derek Mason and
fresh from prison Plaxico Burress. The Jets apparently didn’t ask
Plaxico to work out for them or run a 40 yard dash before signing,
probably because they didn’t have a sun dial available. So not only
was Sanchez left without a deep threat, but he had to break in these
new receivers during a lockout without coaches being present. No big
deal.
Later in Chapter 4- “And just to be sure the quarterback won’t be
comfortable at all, you might want to go ahead and weaken his
offensive line a great deal. Nothing frazzles a QB more than being hit
every play, so we decided to put Wayne Hunter at tackle and back him
up with Vlad Ducasse. Doesn’t get much worse than that! Speaking of
backups, make sure you have none, so if one of your starters like Nick
Mangold does get injured, your QB will get buried…”
Well, this strategy definitely did work. Gotta give them credit.
Chapter 8 – “If you’ve come this far, it means you’ve done everything
you physically can to your QB to make sure he fails. Now it’s time to
work on the mental side and really ruin his confidence. It will be
hard to top what we did, because a guy like Tim Tebow only comes along
once in a lifetime, but if possible, you have to bring in an extremely
popular player to back up your quarterback. That way, every time he
throws an incomplete pass or messes up, the whole crowd will be
pushing for the backup to play, even if he can’t throw a forward pass!
Plus the entire media will report on every little move he makes and
make it nearly impossible for him to not crack under the pressure.
This is an important step in the process here…”
Well, they were right about it being hard for future teams to one-up
them when it comes to Tebow. In fact, I don’t think any starting QB
that has had the success Sanchez has, has ever had to deal with
something like Tim Tebow being brought in and getting on the field for
up to 20 plays per game every Sunday. The Jets really broke new ground
with this one. It was a nice touch added on also to have Matt
Cavanaugh criticize Sanchez publicly while also talking about how
wonderful Tim Tebow is. Smooth.
Look, I’m a big Mark Sanchez supporter and fan. I think he’s gotten a
bum rap, and it’s totally undeserved. People seem to forget that he
only just completed his 3rd season in the league, and is actually
ahead of where many other star players were at the same point in their
careers, just look at Drew Brees’ stats early in his career. Or even
better, look at Eli Manning, who many Giants fans wanted to run out of
town after 3 years.
There are lots of similarities between Sanchez and Eli that go beyond
just the stats. After Eli’s third year, they fired the offensive
coordinator who wasn’t using Eli to the best of his abilities and
became way too predictable. Sound familiar? They replaced him with
Kevin Gilbride, a former Head Coach who had success as an offensive
coach prior to flopping as Head Coach. Again, sound familiar? I hope
the Jets took some notes. The Giants let Eli work out his problems,
progress, and late in Year 4, Eli started to “get it”. He cut out the
silly mistakes, grasped the offense that suited his skills, and he led
them to the Super Bowl. I’m not saying that’s what will happen this
year with Mark Sanchez, but he deserves the opportunity to do so. Mark
Sanchez has proven he can handle the big stage in the past, and I
wouldn’t bet against him rising up and doing so again.
MZ
May 17, 2012, 9:37:54 AM5/17/12
to
I agree with the sentiment that the problem with the Jets offense is
multifaceted. But this article reads to me like the classic
declaration: "<fill in the blank> would be good if only he had a good
coordinator, good offensive line, and WRs." Believe me, I used that
line every offseason in defense of Drew Bledsoe. But I learned that
when you start making those declarations, it means your QB is not very
good and you're in denial.
Sanchez has some obvious problems with his game that are probably not
going to be fixed. But he always shows just enough to make you think
he's an NFL QB. He has the physical tools and he rises to the
occasion in pressure situations. But I think the author is delusional
if he thinks they're going to win on his arm, no matter how clever the
coaching staff is. At this stage, Tebow only has the "rises to the
occasion" part, because it's not clear whether he can ever be a
passer. But DAMN, that guy knows how to rise to the occasion. There
are worse things in the world than having young players with a
demonstrated ability to lead and play well in clutch situations. The
problem is not Tebow -- the problem is whether the Jets coaching staff
can figure out a way to harness his abilities.
multifaceted. But this article reads to me like the classic
declaration: "<fill in the blank> would be good if only he had a good
coordinator, good offensive line, and WRs." Believe me, I used that
line every offseason in defense of Drew Bledsoe. But I learned that
when you start making those declarations, it means your QB is not very
good and you're in denial.
Sanchez has some obvious problems with his game that are probably not
going to be fixed. But he always shows just enough to make you think
he's an NFL QB. He has the physical tools and he rises to the
occasion in pressure situations. But I think the author is delusional
if he thinks they're going to win on his arm, no matter how clever the
coaching staff is. At this stage, Tebow only has the "rises to the
occasion" part, because it's not clear whether he can ever be a
passer. But DAMN, that guy knows how to rise to the occasion. There
are worse things in the world than having young players with a
demonstrated ability to lead and play well in clutch situations. The
problem is not Tebow -- the problem is whether the Jets coaching staff
can figure out a way to harness his abilities.
Tutor
May 17, 2012, 10:13:23 AM5/17/12
to
deck stacked against him in the ways the author pointed out. This
year will be very telling.
Papa Carl
May 17, 2012, 11:55:55 AM5/17/12
to
"MZ" wrote in message
news:5866a804-ec36-410e...@n42g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
the article. I don't see how you can say he can't be fixed or the specific
problems are his. We've never seen him play in any consistent offense with
consistent tools around him or with good coaching. Part of the point of the
article is a great player may not do so well with those circumstances. I
don't really know how good Sanchez is or can be, and after the crap job of
managing him that has been done, maybe we never will. But I'd really like
to know what the specific problems that can't be fixed are.
Johnny Morongo
May 17, 2012, 2:35:43 PM5/17/12
to
indictment of his 6 years here and his record of underachievement at San
Diego. There IS a ton of difference playing for an OC who really knows
his stuff and someone who relies so heavily on a shoebox. And the FACT
remains that the O-line was shit last year and Sanchez was throwing to a
very underwhelming set of receivers. Add that to his obvious fear of
getting killed on pass after pass for quinella of woes. Fixing the
first three might well help with the fourth, so we MIGHT be able to get
to the Dance with him under center.
But I don't know how anyone can fix his inaccuracy.
Papa Carl
May 17, 2012, 3:00:36 PM5/17/12
to
"Johnny Morongo" wrote in message news:jp3ge6$9r2$1...@dont-email.me...
Here is where I think things can be done. From what we saw of him in
college till now we know he is more accurate when he is moving or in play
action to roll out. GOOD coaching can work on accuracy. Mechanics, mind
set, and really teaching not just the BS crap a lot of guys hang their rep
on. I really believe that. And I do not think he has ever had the right QB
coaching in the NFL..it's one thing to make the transition, harder for him
because he played little in college....and then changed styles totally with
no consistency in anything and bad management. I don't know if he will be
good...but he at least should get good coaching, get his mechanics fixed and
go from there.
MZ
May 17, 2012, 3:44:48 PM5/17/12
to
EXACT.
I'm not a Schott apologist by any stretch of the imagination, but the
article had a couple things wrong. First, Brees was an EXCELLENT qb
with the Chargers. He was a highly sought after player once he left,
and only his allegedly career-threatening injury was all that
prevented him from being pursued by 1/3 of the teams in the league.
Second, the Jets offense isn't that confusing. It's pretty vanilla as
far as NFL offenses go. In fact, it was reported in one of the
articles someone posted today that Sparano's blocking schemes were
more numerous and complicated than Schott's, so if the "too
complicated" idea is true, then you guys are totally screwed this
year!
I agree with you that the Jets have other offensive issues to deal
with, especially at RT and WR. And I also agree that the Jets
offensive playcalling has been pretty bad in recent years. But I also
think it's a mistake to believe that players will go from bad to good
just by tweaking the system a little bit. If you believe that Sanchez
can completely turn things around by getting a new coordinator, then
why don't you believe that Hunter and the receivers can do the same?
I think the realistic hope right now is that Sparano comes in and
takes charge of the offense that seems to lack leadership and
direction, re-establishes the ground attack, and adds a common sense
playcalling strategy that puts his players in a better position to
make plays according to their strengths while attempting to mask their
deficiencies. I do NOT, however, believe that Ducasse and Hunter will
turn into good players, that undrafted free agent TEs are going to
become double threats, or that Mark Sanchez will become a good QB.
Johnny Morongo
May 17, 2012, 3:59:46 PM5/17/12
to
year's less than stellar 8-8, given that configuration at RT, TE, and
QB. Neither do I. But the season's still 4 months away. Things may
change for the better.
Nah. This IS the Jets we're talkin' bout here.
STFU, Michael.
MZ
May 17, 2012, 4:45:52 PM5/17/12
to
can go back to what got them there in the previous two years -- the
running game. I'm not expecting the Jets to suddenly become a
successful passing team. I think that's totally unrealistic. But
given their easier schedule this year, I see 10-6 if the things in my
last paragraph turn out to be true.
Grinch
May 17, 2012, 11:00:35 PM5/17/12
to
On Thu, 17 May 2012 06:02:58 -0700 (PDT), Tutor <dcat...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Agree with every point
Remember, if true, it all comes down to one word: "Rex".
Anybody in an organization can screw up one thing.
Screwing up everything from top to bottom and throughout, Eight
Chapters worth, can only be the responsibility of the top boss in
charge.
wrote:
>Agree with every point
Remember, if true, it all comes down to one word: "Rex".
Anybody in an organization can screw up one thing.
Screwing up everything from top to bottom and throughout, Eight
Chapters worth, can only be the responsibility of the top boss in
charge.
Grinch
May 17, 2012, 11:33:40 PM5/17/12
to
On Thu, 17 May 2012 12:44:48 -0700 (PDT), MZ <for...@mdz.no-ip.org>
wrote:
And Pennington was Comeback Player of the Year with Schott -- ahead of
Brees in N.O.
>He was a highly sought after player once he left,
>and only his allegedly career-threatening injury was all that
>prevented him from being pursued by 1/3 of the teams in the league.
>Second, the Jets offense isn't that confusing. It's pretty vanilla as
>far as NFL offenses go.
Confusing only for the intellects running it. Maybe even not for them.
When clanging incompletes and throwing behind, short and over, with a
league bottom completion % year in and year out, it is easy to look
"confused".
Pennington after his years here was able to leave with the all-time
highest NFL completion %. No evident confusion there.
Among the QB traits that are the most consistent year to year, moving
team to team, with teammate and coaching changes, the #1 most stable
("on the QB") is completion percentage.
wrote:
Brees in N.O.
>He was a highly sought after player once he left,
>and only his allegedly career-threatening injury was all that
>prevented him from being pursued by 1/3 of the teams in the league.
>Second, the Jets offense isn't that confusing. It's pretty vanilla as
>far as NFL offenses go.
When clanging incompletes and throwing behind, short and over, with a
league bottom completion % year in and year out, it is easy to look
"confused".
Pennington after his years here was able to leave with the all-time
highest NFL completion %. No evident confusion there.
Among the QB traits that are the most consistent year to year, moving
team to team, with teammate and coaching changes, the #1 most stable
("on the QB") is completion percentage.
cd
May 20, 2012, 5:38:10 PM5/20/12
to
>
> - Show quoted text -
Only one correction about Brees, he was good only his final year with
SD, thats why they drafted Rivers. It takes a few years and the
situation has to be right to develop into a good NFL QB and even in
NFL years, Sanchez should be a rookie in the league.
John C TX
May 21, 2012, 9:22:11 AM5/21/12
to
>or that Mark Sanchez will become a good QB.
You are too spoiled. Brady won a Super Bowl in year two but wasn't a very good QB that year, Manning even took a few years, Marino, & these are the fast starters.
I am not saying he is going to be great but he shows signs of hope.
John C TX
May 21, 2012, 9:12:24 AM5/21/12
to
John C TX
May 21, 2012, 9:16:48 AM5/21/12
to
Of this I am sure, there are dozens of QB's that don't get it until years 4, 5 & even later. He mentions Brees & ignores the fact that Schott was there in his 4th & 5th year.
Harlan Lachman
May 22, 2012, 5:51:24 PM5/22/12
to
In article <cd270037-7c0c-4f13...@googlegroups.com>,
Well this is the year that Rex proves he is completely inept (along with
Sparano) if the OL does not jell and if TE pick us apart again or that
Mark proves he is an NFL QB (or not).
If the D takes pressure off the offense to score, Sparano fixes the OL
and play calling, and Hill just runs flies, Mark should get his chance.
If he does not get his chance, I hope Woody cleans house.
harlan
Sparano) if the OL does not jell and if TE pick us apart again or that
Mark proves he is an NFL QB (or not).
If the D takes pressure off the offense to score, Sparano fixes the OL
and play calling, and Hill just runs flies, Mark should get his chance.
If he does not get his chance, I hope Woody cleans house.
harlan
Nomen Nescio
May 22, 2012, 7:29:56 PM5/22/12
to
I think you guys are kidding yourselves.
You don't seem to realize how mediocre
Sanchez is. Did you know that 18 QB's had
completion percentages of over 60% or
better last year? That Sanchez was 28th
in completion percentage (behind Rex
Grossman, among others)? In his first
four years, Brees worst completion
percentage was still better than anything
Sanchez has accomplished so far? Look:
Drew Brees
2002 60.8 17 16 76.9
2003 57.6 11 15 67.5 (11 games only)
2004 65.5 27 7 104.8
2005 64.6 24 15 89.2
Mark Sanchez
2009 53.8 12 20 63.0
2010 54.8 17 13 75.3
2011 56.7 26 18 78.2
You don't seem to realize how mediocre
Sanchez is. Did you know that 18 QB's had
completion percentages of over 60% or
better last year? That Sanchez was 28th
in completion percentage (behind Rex
Grossman, among others)? In his first
four years, Brees worst completion
percentage was still better than anything
Sanchez has accomplished so far? Look:
Drew Brees
2002 60.8 17 16 76.9
2003 57.6 11 15 67.5 (11 games only)
2004 65.5 27 7 104.8
2005 64.6 24 15 89.2
Mark Sanchez
2009 53.8 12 20 63.0
2010 54.8 17 13 75.3
2011 56.7 26 18 78.2
Papa Carl
May 22, 2012, 8:23:42 PM5/22/12
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"Nomen Nescio" wrote in message
news:a0dc77877d3a31dc...@dizum.com...
design.
John C TX
May 30, 2012, 11:20:28 AM5/30/12
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Nomen Nescio
May 31, 2012, 9:02:54 AM5/31/12
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Well, why not Bart Starr too? I don't see what
good it does to compare Sanchez to QB's before
the salary cap and the Polian pussy rules went
into effect, among other things. The game was
quite different 30 years ago. Those three
QB's were never great QB's, they were solid
enough when they had great teams around them,
and they had a deserved reputation for toughness,
but they are not in the same league with today's
best QB's. Jay Cutler-type QB's like Elway were
good enough then, but not now. In any case, it's
pretty clear that Sanchez, relative to his peers,
is not very good.
Mark Sanchez
2009 53.8 12 20 63.0
2010 54.8 17 13 75.3
2011 56.7 26 18 78.2
Aikman
1989 52.9 9 18 55.7 (11 games)
1990 56.6 11 18 66.6 (15 games)
1991 65.3 11 10 86.7 (12 games)
1992 63.8 23 14 89.5 (16 games)
Elway
1983 47.5 7 14 54.9 (11 games)
1984 56.3 18 15 76.8 (14 games)
1985 54.0 22 23 70.2
1986 55.6 19 13 79.0
Simms
1979 50.6 13 14 66.0 (12 games)
1980 48.0 15 19 58.9 (13 games)
1981 54.4 11 9 74.0 (10 games)
1984 53.7 22 18 78.1 (16 games)
good it does to compare Sanchez to QB's before
the salary cap and the Polian pussy rules went
into effect, among other things. The game was
quite different 30 years ago. Those three
QB's were never great QB's, they were solid
enough when they had great teams around them,
and they had a deserved reputation for toughness,
but they are not in the same league with today's
best QB's. Jay Cutler-type QB's like Elway were
good enough then, but not now. In any case, it's
pretty clear that Sanchez, relative to his peers,
is not very good.
Mark Sanchez
2009 53.8 12 20 63.0
2010 54.8 17 13 75.3
2011 56.7 26 18 78.2
1989 52.9 9 18 55.7 (11 games)
1990 56.6 11 18 66.6 (15 games)
1991 65.3 11 10 86.7 (12 games)
1992 63.8 23 14 89.5 (16 games)
Elway
1983 47.5 7 14 54.9 (11 games)
1984 56.3 18 15 76.8 (14 games)
1985 54.0 22 23 70.2
1986 55.6 19 13 79.0
Simms
1979 50.6 13 14 66.0 (12 games)
1980 48.0 15 19 58.9 (13 games)
1981 54.4 11 9 74.0 (10 games)
1984 53.7 22 18 78.1 (16 games)
John C TX
Jun 1, 2012, 9:34:04 AM6/1/12
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As for completion % & eras they also played in the height of the era where the backs, especially Simms & Aikman, were receiving more than today. Defenses continue to improve. You focus on completion % while I focus on TD's both passing & running & int's.
Again my point is that most QB's take 3-5 years to get good. There are very few exceptions.
Nomen Nescio
Jun 1, 2012, 2:53:07 PM6/1/12
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My point was that most qb's that are good start good
and stay pretty consistent, and I provided the evidence.
In the 14 years prior to 1997 and 1998, when the Broncos
won two superbowls (after some cheating in the draft), Elway's
teams were in the playoffs seven times, with a 7-7 record
and three appearances in the superbowl, where Elway threw
one touchdown and one interception in '86, 1 td and 3 ints
in 87 (with a qb rating of 36.8 and losing to Doug Williams),
and 0 tds and 2 ints (for a QB rating of 19.4!) in '89. '86 was his
4th year in the league, '89 was his SEVENTH year in the
league! Are you prepared to wait another 10-11 years for
Sanchez to win a superbowl?
Elway, despite the media perception, was not a GREAT quarterback,
he was a solid qb, and tough, but not GREAT. He won the big one
only when his team cheated and got some superior players to play
with him. In this way you are right, Sanchez could be another
Elway, as Sanchez almost got to the Superbowl twice with a good
defensive team around him.
Another comparison, the league's average completion % in '85,
and Elway's completion % that year, and the same comparison
for Sanchez for last year:
'85 54.8% Elway 54.0%
'11 60.1% Sanchez 56.7%
In '85, league highs were Montana, with 61.3%, Dan Fouts and
Mark Herrmann combined for a 61.1%, and Ken O'Brien of the Jets
had 60.9%, so Elway was a little below average, and Elway
finished right in the middle of the pack because the 16th
ranked team (Minnesota) had a 54% completion %. In 2011, 4 teams
finished above 65% (NO,Packers,Cowboys,Pats), and *16* teams
finished above 60%! Sanchez was tied for 24th, as only the
Bears, Colts, Browns, Vikings, Cardinals, Rams, Jaguars and
Broncos had a worse completion %. So it looks to me that
you have the poor man's Elway, but that's only because Elway
had only Montana as definitely superior competition, while Sanchez
has Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Rivers and Roethlisberger to compete
against. I must say, I don't like his chances.
and stay pretty consistent, and I provided the evidence.
In the 14 years prior to 1997 and 1998, when the Broncos
won two superbowls (after some cheating in the draft), Elway's
teams were in the playoffs seven times, with a 7-7 record
and three appearances in the superbowl, where Elway threw
one touchdown and one interception in '86, 1 td and 3 ints
in 87 (with a qb rating of 36.8 and losing to Doug Williams),
and 0 tds and 2 ints (for a QB rating of 19.4!) in '89. '86 was his
4th year in the league, '89 was his SEVENTH year in the
league! Are you prepared to wait another 10-11 years for
Sanchez to win a superbowl?
Elway, despite the media perception, was not a GREAT quarterback,
he was a solid qb, and tough, but not GREAT. He won the big one
only when his team cheated and got some superior players to play
with him. In this way you are right, Sanchez could be another
Elway, as Sanchez almost got to the Superbowl twice with a good
defensive team around him.
Another comparison, the league's average completion % in '85,
and Elway's completion % that year, and the same comparison
for Sanchez for last year:
'85 54.8% Elway 54.0%
'11 60.1% Sanchez 56.7%
In '85, league highs were Montana, with 61.3%, Dan Fouts and
Mark Herrmann combined for a 61.1%, and Ken O'Brien of the Jets
had 60.9%, so Elway was a little below average, and Elway
finished right in the middle of the pack because the 16th
ranked team (Minnesota) had a 54% completion %. In 2011, 4 teams
finished above 65% (NO,Packers,Cowboys,Pats), and *16* teams
finished above 60%! Sanchez was tied for 24th, as only the
Bears, Colts, Browns, Vikings, Cardinals, Rams, Jaguars and
Broncos had a worse completion %. So it looks to me that
you have the poor man's Elway, but that's only because Elway
had only Montana as definitely superior competition, while Sanchez
has Brees, Rodgers, Brady, Rivers and Roethlisberger to compete
against. I must say, I don't like his chances.
John C TX
Jun 1, 2012, 4:18:07 PM6/1/12
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On Friday, June 1, 2012 1:53:07 PM UTC-5, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> My point was that most qb's that are good start good
> and stay pretty consistent, and I provided the evidence.
First off what evidence Drew Brees vs Sanchez 3's? If so Brees proves my point. Most QB's take 3-5 years some take longer.
> My point was that most qb's that are good start good
> and stay pretty consistent, and I provided the evidence.
>
> In the 14 years prior to 1997 and 1998, when the Broncos
> won two superbowls (after some cheating in the draft), Elway's
> teams were in the playoffs seven times, with a 7-7 record
> and three appearances in the superbowl, where Elway threw
> one touchdown and one interception in '86, 1 td and 3 ints
> in 87 (with a qb rating of 36.8 and losing to Doug Williams),
> and 0 tds and 2 ints (for a QB rating of 19.4!) in '89. '86 was his
> 4th year in the league, '89 was his SEVENTH year in the
> league! Are you prepared to wait another 10-11 years for
> Sanchez to win a superbowl?
You make no sense & flip back & forth. You must be a Pats fan.
> In the 14 years prior to 1997 and 1998, when the Broncos
> won two superbowls (after some cheating in the draft), Elway's
> teams were in the playoffs seven times, with a 7-7 record
> and three appearances in the superbowl, where Elway threw
> one touchdown and one interception in '86, 1 td and 3 ints
> in 87 (with a qb rating of 36.8 and losing to Doug Williams),
> and 0 tds and 2 ints (for a QB rating of 19.4!) in '89. '86 was his
> 4th year in the league, '89 was his SEVENTH year in the
> league! Are you prepared to wait another 10-11 years for
> Sanchez to win a superbowl?
Brady & Manning are a rarity. Most QB's take time but most are just one big piece of the puzzle. Manning won one Super Bowl & if Belichik had not have been so cheap dumping Branch Manning probably would not have won tha.
>
> Elway, despite the media perception, was not a GREAT quarterback,
> he was a solid qb, and tough, but not GREAT. He won the big one
> only when his team cheated and got some superior players to play
> with him. In this way you are right, Sanchez could be another
> Elway, as Sanchez almost got to the Superbowl twice with a good
> defensive team around him.
Can we say the same about Manning?
> Elway, despite the media perception, was not a GREAT quarterback,
> he was a solid qb, and tough, but not GREAT. He won the big one
> only when his team cheated and got some superior players to play
> with him. In this way you are right, Sanchez could be another
> Elway, as Sanchez almost got to the Superbowl twice with a good
> defensive team around him.
>
> Another comparison, the league's average completion % in '85,
> and Elway's completion % that year, and the same comparison
> for Sanchez for last year:
>
> '85 54.8% Elway 54.0%
> '11 60.1% Sanchez 56.7%
You are fixated on completion %. Tony Romo had a high one last year how did that work out?
> Another comparison, the league's average completion % in '85,
> and Elway's completion % that year, and the same comparison
> for Sanchez for last year:
>
> '85 54.8% Elway 54.0%
> '11 60.1% Sanchez 56.7%
Anonymous Remailer (austria)
Jun 2, 2012, 1:26:15 PM6/2/12
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What is your reason for thinking he suddenly is going to
become good?
Sanchez
2009
3rd worst int%
17th worst sack yds
25TH best td%
2010
17th worst int%
22nd worst sack yds
24th best TD%
2011
8th worst INT%
8th worst sack yds
9th best TD%
So his td% improved dramatically this past year. Unfortunately
his negative stats became much worse, although it would be hard
to beat that first year int% (for badness). What's disturbing
is that his completion percentage is so low, which probably
means he's keeping the ball in a hard place to catch to avoid
interceptions, yet he's still throwing lots of interceptions!
As far as I'm concerned, he has given us no reason to believe
that suddenly he will become much better. He may not need to
be with a Ryan defense, but I don't think he's going to turn
into Joe Montana, or even Joe Flacco:
Flacco
Y C% T I R
2008 60.0 14 12 80.3
2009 63.1 21 12 88.9
2010 62.6 25 10 93.6
2011 57.6 20 12 80.9
John C TX
Jun 2, 2012, 1:44:51 PM6/2/12
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Papa Carl
Jun 2, 2012, 2:11:42 PM6/2/12
to
"John C TX" wrote in message
news:8acbda45-81f1-475a...@googlegroups.com...
been caught and were juggled into an interception by one of those stellar
receivers? I do not recall any of those guys doing a fantastic job last
season and quite a few balls that were just dropped should have been
completions. I think part of this is totally on the FO...they should NEVER
have changed receivers the way they have making it much harder for him to
develop consistency.
Nomen Nescio
Jun 2, 2012, 5:42:25 PM6/2/12
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Aren't those the same receivers you were saying were great
and everything was all Schottenheimer's fault?
and everything was all Schottenheimer's fault?
Papa Carl
Jun 3, 2012, 12:26:10 AM6/3/12
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"Nomen Nescio" wrote in message
Aren't those the same receivers you were saying were great
and everything was all Schottenheimer's fault?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
great...never...and as a matter of fact I bitched about the constant
shuffling of new guys in.
John C (tx)
Jun 4, 2012, 9:27:09 AM6/4/12
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On Jun 2, 1:11 pm, "Papa Carl" <papa.c...@NOTATverizon.net> wrote:
> "John C TX" wrote in messagenews:8acbda45-81f1-475a...@googlegroups.com...
Mildly changing subjects what do you think the biggest defensive
adjustment (maybe offense by more & more spread formations) was made
to radically reduce teh # of catches RB's make?
> "John C TX" wrote in messagenews:8acbda45-81f1-475a...@googlegroups.com...
adjustment (maybe offense by more & more spread formations) was made
to radically reduce teh # of catches RB's make?
Papa Carl
Jun 4, 2012, 10:24:59 AM6/4/12
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"John C (tx)" wrote in message
news:5bc0bd4c-9e73-4d5f...@v9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
that looks confused, too many times with receivers in the wrong places etc.
that the ability to throw to a RB diminishes because they become easier to
cover.
John C TX
Jun 5, 2012, 8:42:59 AM6/5/12
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> Mildly changing subjects what do you think the biggest defensive
> adjustment (maybe offense by more & more spread formations) was made
> to radically reduce teh # of catches RB's make?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I do think that when there is no deep threat, and quite often a passing game
> that looks confused, too many times with receivers in the wrong places etc.
> that the ability to throw to a RB diminishes because they become easier to
> cover.
Papa Carl
Jun 5, 2012, 3:14:00 PM6/5/12
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"John C TX" wrote in message
complementary set of WR's. When you need to consider and cover all of them,
and put them in a position to be effective it allows the RB to be used
also...and if you use the spread to accomplish that fine...but it is not
always the spread or just the spread offense. OMHO...but anyone who is
eligible should be a threat in the passing game.
John C TX
Jun 6, 2012, 8:43:59 AM6/6/12
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Papa Carl
Jun 6, 2012, 12:20:00 PM6/6/12
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"John C TX" wrote in message
of some play action where the FB was able to slip out underneath or as a
part of a sweep design type play...you are right....the West Coast type
stuff sort of got rid of that scheme and moved the RB in some cases to more
of a safety valve..but look what Manning did with the Colts....lots of
throws to backs....you need an O LINE to do that too...
John C TX
Jun 6, 2012, 3:36:18 PM6/6/12
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