Apportioning Blame

[euph...@mindspring.com]

From Perkins - Sun Sentinel...


August 29, 2016, 8:42 AM |DAVIE
Dolphins quarterback Ryan Tannehill is doing his job. Now it’s up to the people who catch his passes – the tight ends and wide receivers – to do theirs. The Dolphins’ wide receivers and tight ends have too many dropped passes so far, the bulk of those coming in the last two games against Dallas and Atlanta.

“I think we have to clean up the drops,” coach Adam Gase said Sunday.

Here’s the way you have to look at this situation: the wide receivers and tight ends must make Tannehill better, not the other way around.

The Dolphins have waited four years for Tannehill to make the receivers better and it hasn’t worked. The notable exceptions this preseason have been wide receiver Kenny Stills, who has been outstanding, and tight end Dion Sims, who has met expectations.

The other starting-caliber pass catchers have been shaky.

Unofficially, tight end Jordan Cameron has three drops (two in the end zone), wide receiver Jarvis Landry has three (two in the end zone), wide receiver DeVante Parker has two (one in the end zone).

Landry, the 2015 Pro Bowl selection, also has two penalties in the last two weeks.

But let’s focus on the drops.

Tannehill has been an accurate passer. For the most part he’s putting the ball on the money.

Sure, some of the "drops" are borderline. For example, the one Landry had in the front left corner of end zone against Dallas when Tannehill fired a bullet his way -- that’s a tough call to blame it on Landry.

And many of the other drops have come on what would have been tough catches.

Landry had one such play in the end zone against Dallas, as did Parker. Cameron had a drop in the end zone that would have been a tough catch against Atlanta, and Parker had a drop on a deep pass against Atlanta that would have been a tough catch.

If you’re a good corps of pass catchers, however, you must make a lot of those tough catches.

The wide receivers know they’ve struggled. Gase said they worked extra on distraction drills in Sunday’s practice.

“This is a very prideful group ... and they don’t want to be the guy to drop the ball in big situations,” Gase said.

Many who follow the Dolphins expected the wide receivers to be among the list of the team's most trusted units this season.

But they must earn that status each season on action, not potential.

And so far the tight ends and receivers, with the exception of Stills and Sims, have only proven to be average.

[Drumrboy]

I have a problem with this...

Six guys can't catch, although the author admits some where hard catches, but the guy throwing the passes has been doing his job?

Yea, ok....

What's the constant in this formula? The only pass that was flat out dropped was Jordan's quick in at the goal line. Every other one is borderline.

[euphemism]

I expected you'd be upset by that article. It's still fair to expect
the receivers to catch balls that hit them in the hands. No QB throws
perfectly and I see lots of receivers make really tough catches. Being
as many, including you, have been extremely hard on Tannehill, it's more
than fair to judge his receivers with the same level of harshness.

I saw Landry drop at least two very reasonable passes. He's earned some
forgiveness. Cameron is a completely different story. He has been a
steady disappointment and has admitted that he has sucked.

It's really likely that you're going to beat Tannehill like a rented
mule every time he makes a mistake. I expect to hold his receivers and
blockers accountable since I believe Tannehill has been poorly served by
his supporting cast.

[Valravn]

Agreed. The only other Dolphin catching everything thrown his way besides Stills is playing with the twos (or threes/fours). Dominique Jones. Also the only TE catching anything.

Grant looked good early, but few opportunities since game one.

Valravn

[J Lunis]

Gase and CC are on record noting drops by Cameron, Landry, et al are
unacceptable. Gase has referred to to RTan's passing as much improved.
I'll take Gase's word on where the blame lies. Yeah, I know, Gase's
comments are only protecting his QB. 'I know!! I'll dump on the
receivers for something that's not their fault so I can protect RTan's ego.'

That said, we agree some. One 'drop' by Landry in the EZ looked to me
like the timing was off between QB/WR, and one drop by I-forget-who
looked like it got to him faster than he expected. If those are timing
problems, they're correctable. Jordan's drops? I can't explain those.
He looks stone-handed.

[euph...@mindspring.com]

On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 at 6:58:05 AM UTC-5, J Lunis wrote:
> On 8/29/2016 2:32 PM, Drumrboy wrote:
> > I have a problem with this...
> >
> > Six guys can't catch, although the author admits some where hard catches, but the guy throwing the passes has been doing his job?
> >
> > Yea, ok....
> >
> > What's the constant in this formula? The only pass that was flat out dropped was Jordan's quick in at the goal line. Every other one is borderline.
> >
>
> Gase and CC are on record noting drops by Cameron, Landry, et al are
> unacceptable. Gase has referred to to RTan's passing as much improved.
> I'll take Gase's word on where the blame lies. Yeah, I know, Gase's
> comments are only protecting his QB. 'I know!! I'll dump on the
> receivers for something that's not their fault so I can protect RTan's ego.'

Sometimes the truth is just the truth.

> That said, we agree some. One 'drop' by Landry in the EZ looked to me
> like the timing was off between QB/WR, and one drop by I-forget-who
> looked like it got to him faster than he expected. If those are timing
> problems, they're correctable. Jordan's drops? I can't explain those.
> He looks stone-handed.

There is no defense for the goal line drop that bounced off Jordan's chest. He managed to begin raising his hands as the ball doinked off his face. Sure, the ball came in hot and fast. That's the nature of that play. When you are a TE in the NFL, that is a play you have to make. There are plenty of TE's who do that week-in and week-out. I have no idea how Jordan was ever able to establish himself as such a valuable player, but he hasn't shown it since he came to Miami. Not much analysis need there. Maybe psychoanalysis would help.

[Drumrboy]

Aug 29euph...@mindspring.com
- show quoted text -

I expected you'd be upset by that article.  It's still fair to expect
the receivers to catch balls that hit them in the hands.  No QB throws
perfectly and I see lots of receivers make really tough catches.  Being
as many, including you, have been extremely hard on Tannehill, it's more
than fair to judge his receivers with the same level of harshness.

I saw Landry drop at least two very reasonable passes.  He's earned some
forgiveness.  Cameron is a completely different story.  He has been a
steady disappointment and has admitted that he has sucked.

It's really likely that you're going to beat Tannehill like a rented
mule every time he makes a mistake.  I expect to hold his receivers and
blockers accountable since I believe Tannehill has been poorly served by
his supporting cast.

I'm not upset, I'm just calling it as I see it. Miami has had a bunch of shit receivers.

Wes Welker, Brandon Marshall, Mike Wallace, Brian Hartline, Matthews, Gibbons, etc.. Maybe Ross needs to hire a WR Whisperer?

Funny how there's no mention in tht article of the 2 batted balls last game, huh?

[euphemism]

Wes Welker? Now that's going back a bit.

Wallace? He's been a bust in Minnesota as far as I can tell. Shame
about Bridgewater BTW.

You think Tannehill is the only QB who gets 'em batted?

[Drumrboy]

Aug 30euph...@mindspring.com

- show quoted text -

Wes Welker?  Now that's going back a bit.

Wallace?  He's been a bust in Minnesota as far as I can tell.  Shame
about Bridgewater BTW.

You think Tannehill is the only QB who gets 'em batted?

Point is, you talk bad about, show up or mention the flaws of the "anointed one" and your ass is on the next plane out of Miami.

Has nothing to do with how much talent you have, or had, it's all about Golden Boy's "safe zone".

As far as batted balls go, he's not the only one, but he sure seems to have more than just about anybody else. At least 2 a game.

[J Lunis]

Not quite. RTan is 3rd from bottom - A Smith and Bortles have a higher
%. RTan's in '14 (last I can find) was 19 BP.

BTW, that same source lists RTan as average in overthrows and league's
best (fewest) at underthrows.

And as a point of interest, from an article on Weeden and batted passes
. . . <snipped>

"I believe batted passes are a shared responsibility," Hasselbeck said.
"The quarterback has to find passing lanes. The offensive line and the
guys in pass protection have to do a good job of getting defensive
linemen and linebackers' hands down."

One-third of Weeden's batted passes came on wide receiver screens or off
three-step drops.

The expectation is for Weeden's batted passes to decline this year
because of the new offensive system under Rob Chudzinski and Norv
Turner, who will put Weeden in the shotgun more often. Chudzinski used
the shotgun on 74 percent of the passes thrown last year by Carolina's
Cam Newton, and Turner had Philip Rivers in the shotgun 77 percent of
the time. Last season, Weeden only threw 42 percent of his passes out of
the shotgun.
http://www.espn.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/78389/batted-passes-not-all-weedens-fault

[euph...@mindspring.com]

You have often referred to Tannehill as the "anointed one" and that is sort of puzzling. There hasn't been a better QB spotted among the 10 or more candidates that have graced Miami's camps over the last 4 years.

You may reasonably argue that Tannehill was not worthy of being handed the job his first year, but he has since proven himself to be superior to all the others who have been his competition during that time. Matt Moore is the sole survivor among the crowd of also-rans and his play has been very erratic over that period, to put it nicely. Nothing you or anyone else has seen suggests that Tannehill isn't the appropriate choice among those auditioned.

If you feel they've ignored opportunities to acquire any superior QB, you should specify which guy that was because I have seen them pass on NO ONE that the assembled experts would have said was a solid choice.

They did pass on Zak Prescott in this last draft... a decision that is likely to haunt them and 30 other teams. In fairness, the Cowboys would also have passed on Prescott had they been able to move up and snag Paxton Lynch, so it's not like they knew what they might get in Prescott and then waited patiently for the 4th round to grab him. Then again, maybe Zak is just the next Collin Kaepernick... flash, bang.... gone.

For my part, I have repeatedly said that the Dolphins need to roll the dice in the 3rd or 4th round (at least) in every draft until they clearly do not need a QB to groom. Prescott may be just the next surprise QB to prove that as a wise draft strategy. Clearly the experts are not especially savvy when it comes to identifying those hidden gems. The Dolphins again failed to draft a QB in 2016, despite the fact that this is clearly Tannehill's win or go elsewhere season based solely on his contract terms. God help us if they decide to try to replace him via the draft in 2017.

[J Lunis]

Two comments. 1) RTan was considered the 3rd best QB in the draft.
Interestingly, he was projected as a top 10 pick at the high end to low
R1 at the low end. A lot of variation. 2) As for Prescott, 32 teams
passed on him HOW MANY times?? It isn't as if his talent was obvious to
every one.
As for the draft, after RTan's draft, QBs drafted in 1st two rounds
consist of Manuel, Geno, Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater, Carr,
Garoppollo(sp), Winston, Mariota. Not an 'elite' QB in the group, and
none are 'top' QBs. Some MAY be someday, but the same can be said for
RTan. Yes, there are the RARE Wilson and Brady late picks, but fans
will have to accept a LOT of misses before MAYBE SOMEDAY hitting it right.
To be fair, every 1R QB is considered the "anointed one." RGIII, Ryan
Leaf, Bortles, Sanchez. All of them. Less than half are NFL starters 4
years later, or if they ARE starting, their team is SERIOUSLY looking
for a replacement.
Just to refresh, I see RTAN to date, as average. In this post I show
he's poor at batted passes (as is Brees). He's poor on 3rd down. I'm
not in denial. BUT, he has above average stats in many areas and,
although detractors HATE this, he's been saddled with the league's worst
HC and OL. I believe I've stated elsewhere . . . there's a reason teams
with average and above QBs RARELY draft a QB in 1st 3 rounds. Average
and above QBs are hard to find and other positions need upgrading much
worse.

[Drumrboy]

Actually, they drafted Doughtery this year. I don't know if they'll keep him, but I like the kid. He smart, accurate, and had a pretty damn good collage career.

Come to think of it, maybe they didn't draft him… Was he an UFA?

[Drumrboy]

I'm tired of the OL excuses. The Fanboi's always blame someone else, whether its the OL, WR's, Coaches, RB's, TE's…

He hasn't been sacked in over his last 50 Drop Backs. He has a 67 QBR over that time. So whats the excuse?

Oh, yea, his WR's drop everything….

Please, It's put up or shut up time. They've done everything possible to make this guy a success, and so far, he looks like a pretty good QB for WR. That's it in a nutshell, There is a reason he didn't play QB in Collage.

Wake me up when he carries the team to a win, or hell, even wins a game in December.

[J Lunis]

Hmmm, let's revisit. I noted his excessive BPs and poor 3rd down
performance and offered no excuses. explain "blame someone else" to me.
There are two extremes - either NOTHING is RTan's fault or NO ONE else
deserves some of the blame. I'm firmly in the middle. If you see no
one else deserving blame, I can deduce your prejudice.

As for QBR, RTan's for 3 PS games is 86 - above average. If you want to
run the numbers yourself, go here . . .
http://brucey.net/nflab/statistics/qb_rating.html
And let the record show if just one of those EZ passes had been caught,
his QBR would be 92.

Or try this one . . . Newton and his team LOST the SB. Mostly Newton had
a bad game. What's that you say? He was harassed relentlessly by the
D? QBR of 16. ONE TD. TWO fumbles. Blew it in 4Q. Don't tell me the
Denver D is good. Don't tell me the Cal O failed. EXCUSES!!!! NEWTON
lost the SB. Yeah, right.

Every analyst/talking head has noted RTan's improved efficiency,
accuracy, mastery of the O. All mention drops and poor run game. Yet,
you seem to think the only thing that matters is the negative stats. No
good stat is so significant it can't be ignored. No number of analysts
can dissuade you from your opinion. RTan has flaws. No one here denies
that. OTOH, the OL sucked. Until last year receivers sucked. The HC
sucked. The OC sucked. There's only one person here who won't admit
that had any influence.

[J Lunis]

I was a fan fo Doughty through the summer. But, he hurt himself with
the Atlanta performance. He should get a lot of snaps against Tenn, but
for now I think he's behind Dysert.

[euph...@mindspring.com]

If his receivers, including and especially his TE's, were playing at anything like an NFL level right now, he'd have no excuse... but it they were, he wouldn't NEED and excuse because they'd have caught the fucking balls that hit them in the hands and Tannehill's QB rating would be far healthier.

>
> Please, It's put up or shut up time. They've done everything possible to make this guy a success, and so far, he looks like a pretty good QB for WR. That's it in a nutshell, There is a reason he didn't play QB in Collage.
>
> Wake me up when he carries the team to a win, or hell, even wins a game in December.

Wake me up when you have a superior alternative.

[Drumrboy]

12:42 PMJ Lunis

On 8/31/2016 10:46 AM, Drumrboy wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 9:41:47 AM UTC-4, J Lunis wrote:
- show quoted text -

Hmmm, let's revisit.  I noted his excessive BPs and poor 3rd down
performance and offered no excuses.  explain "blame someone else" to me.
  There are two extremes - either NOTHING is RTan's fault or NO ONE else
deserves some of the blame.  I'm firmly in the middle.  If you see no
one else deserving blame, I can deduce your prejudice.

As for QBR, RTan's for 3 PS games is 86 - above average.  If you want to
run the numbers yourself, go here . . .
http://brucey.net/nflab/statistics/qb_rating.html
And let the record show if just one of those EZ passes had been caught,
his QBR would be 92.

Or try this one . . . Newton and his team LOST the SB. Mostly Newton had
a bad game.  What's that you say?  He was harassed relentlessly by the
D?  QBR of 16.  ONE TD.  TWO fumbles.  Blew it in 4Q.  Don't tell me the
Denver D is good.  Don't tell me the Cal O failed.  EXCUSES!!!!   NEWTON
lost the SB.  Yeah, right.

Every analyst/talking head has noted RTan's improved efficiency,
accuracy, mastery of the O.  All mention drops and poor run game.  Yet,
you seem to think the only thing that matters is the negative stats.  No
good stat is so significant it can't be ignored.  No number of analysts
can dissuade you from your opinion.  RTan has flaws.  No one here denies
that.  OTOH, the OL sucked.  Until last year receivers sucked.  The HC
sucked.  The OC sucked.  There's only one person here who won't admit
that had any influence.

You know how I feel about stats, J... But I ask you this.

What exactly is Tanehill above average at (stat wise) other than being able to take a pounding and get up again that makes him a $100,000,000 QB?

Mind you, even if you find one (you won't) it doesn't change the fact that the guy has no pocket presence, stares down his recievers, and is inaccurate (both resasons why WR's cant stay healthy) in a dink and dunk game?

Look, I'm not rooting against him, I'm just trying to figure out what this kid has done since he replaced a QB that went 9-7 the year before he was drafted?

Every move this organization has made in the last 5 years has been to make this kid better. Is he really any better than Moore was?

THAT'S my problem with him. They've been trying to build a team around a guy that was a reach at #8 for 4 years now. Time to put up or shut up. The guys a fucking MOUSE! He's supposed to be the team leader? Please! No one respects him because he hasn't DONE ANYTHING!! Even with all the pampering, and coaching, and running naysayers out of town regardless of the talent they have.

Time for him to lead, or get the fuck out of the way. I'm tired of the same excuses!

[Drumrboy]

1:04 PMeuph...@mindspring.com

On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 9:46:04 AM UTC-5, Drumrboy wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 9:41:47 AM UTC-4, J Lunis wrote:
- show quoted text -

If his receivers, including and especially his TE's, were playing at anything like an NFL level right now, he'd have no excuse...  but it they were, he wouldn't NEED and excuse because they'd have caught the fucking balls that hit them in the hands and Tannehill's QB rating would be far healthier.

>
> Please, It's put up or shut up time. They've done everything possible to make this guy a success, and so far, he looks like a pretty good QB for WR. That's it in a nutshell, There is a reason he didn't play QB in Collage.
>
> Wake me up when he carries the team to a win, or hell, even wins a game in December.


Wake me up when you have a superior alternative.

How can I have a superior alternative when everyone in the organization has so far REFUSED to open up the position to compition? The guy has been handed the starting job since the day he was drafted. They've bent over backwards as an entire organization for four years.

If it looks like a duck, walks like and duck and quacks like a duck....

[Stoobz]

http://www.finheaven.com/showthread.php?377454-Tannehill-Batted-Balls

[Stoobz]

On 8/31/2016 5:11 AM, Drumrboy wrote:

Scroll down to "Batted Down & Defensed". The rest of the article has
some great information, although from two seasons ago.

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/2014-incomplete-pass-breakdown-passers

[J Lunis]

You make this too easy. Where is he above average? TD passes. Total
yards. Deep passing % (9th)Play action passing (2nd). Bad passes (4th
fewest). You're stat of choice, accuracy (7th). Not top, but average
(come from behind 4Q wins. Yup, he's done it. Big play passes (tied
for 9th). Time to throw (actually, how long he had until the pocket
collapsed) 3rd shortest time. Short pass grade - 9th. Intermediate
pass grade - 7th. That's with a quick look. I can find more. Full
disclosure - some of those are '14 stats - can't find '15.
Saw an article a few months ago (you'll have to trust me) RTan was 11th?
12th? in directing defenders with his eyes. Another way to measure
'stares down.'

Keep in mind I'm NOT an RTan defender. I can list flaws. But stats as
a whole paint him as average.

Now, there's a difference between TRYING to 'make this kid better' and
actually accomplishing it. League's worst OL IN SPITE of attempts.
Very few run plays. Not allowed to scramble. Not allowed to role out.
Not allowed to sneak. Not allowed to audible. Not allowed in the
game-planning room. It's no coincidence RTan's stats got better once
Queasy and Lazor left. Certainly you remember the uproar when the
opponent's CBs started calling the receivers' routes pre-snap? You
remember the complaints last year the receivers were running sloppy
inconsistent routes? You remember go and go-go? You remember the
bubble screen every 3rd play and how they quit working after afew games?
And how the OC KEPT calling them? You don't think any of that
influences any QBs stats? You see that all as "excuses?"

[euph...@mindspring.com]

You can have a superior alternative by simply pointing to what the Dolphins (Gase, et al) should be doing differently at this time.

At this moment, in this new season, Tannehill has done nothing wrong to be bashed about. He'll have no opportunity to prove you're opinion right or wrong until the regular season games begin. Once they do, it's obvious you'll give him no quarter. There's no one available that should logically be put in ahead of him, so pointing out everything he's ever done to piss you off is rather pointless. You're having none of what anyone says in his defense - I'm having none of the "Tannehill is this team's biggest problem" view point. There are A LOT of DUCKS on this team and many of them quack much louder than Tannehill.

Right now, whenever Jordan Cameron is quoted as saying "I just have to make those catches," all I hear is "AFLAC."

[J Lunis]

On 8/31/2016 2:43 PM, euph...@mindspring.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 1:12:14 PM UTC-5, Drumrboy wrote:
>> 1:04 PMeuph...@mindspring.com

>

> Right now, whenever Jordan Cameron is quoted as saying "I just have to make those catches," all I hear is "AFLAC."
>

Now THAT'S funny.

[J Lunis]

You can certainly have a suggested alternative. Doesn't mean
Queasy/Gase have to take it. Example: I wanted Miami to take Knighton
at DT instead of Jones. What would you suggest Miami should have done?