Sanity

[rt]

You want a nicer house, Mr. Ross? Hire contractors and foot the
bill. The rest of us have better things to do and certainly see
through the bullshit economic arguments supporting public funding
polishing your vast ego trophy. Super Bowls are vastly overrated
anyway.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9240615/florida-legislature-refuses-help-aid-miami-dolphins

[Stu Gotts]

> http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9240615/florida-legislature-refuses...


Aw, come on rt... Ross was just trying to help the good folks of Dade
County. After all, everybody knows that the hotels, clubs and
restaurants are damn near empty there in the winter. Especially the
2nd week of February. Hell, all that happens that week is the Miami
International Boat Show, Florida's largest annual event... with 3,000
boats and over 2,000 exhibitors from all over the planet. Oh yeah...
it also draws more than 100,000 visitors and runs for a week.

I'm just sorry he was shafted by one of his reach around buddies up in
Tallahassee... instead of having the opportunity to be humiliatingly
repudiated at the polls by the voters.

It's HIS team... and HIS stadium... so he needs to spend HIS own
fucking money to increase it's worth. Isn't that the way good old
fashioned capitalism is supposed to work?

Stu

[Drumrboy]

I'm not from Florida so take it for what it's worth...

Why the fuck is a Billionare asking for what amounts to welfare?

I don't ask my local politicians for money every time my roof leaks.

it's "his" house, isn't it? Lt him foot the fucking bill. Isn't he supposed to be some fucking hotshot Real Estae Mogul?

[rt]

I almost included in my original post "I wonder how many hours until
we hear threats about moving the team to LA?".... I guess the answer
was around 12.

rt

[J Lunis]

All I saw was a little of Dee's comments. As I read it, Ross has 'no
intentions' of moving the team, but has no idea what the 'next' owner
will do. I read it more like 'Mr. Ross won't move but he may sell.'
Still, I'm skeptical of that. My guess? Ross will get his improvements
but he'll have to put up more of his own money.

[euphemism]

Disclaimer: I no longer live in Florida and do not go to Dolphin games.

I think that the fair thing to do with any proposal such as this is to
make sure it gets before the voters. If the voters kill it, so be it.

I have vague memories of the time when Joe Robbie went with his hat in
hand to various state and local governments looking for money. I
believe Mr. Huizenga's vision for some sort of Sports World Complex was
similarly rejected. There's not much appetite for this sort of thing in
Florida and I think that is probably fair given the desirability of the
area. Any given February, I would much rather party in Miami at an
older stadium than be in some state-of-the-art facility in New York or
similar climes.

I would recommend to any So-Fla denizen who might listen, that they
consider the thing fairly. I realize that it's the very essence of
chutzpah when a billionaire owner goes looking for taxpayer money to
help improve or build a property he will or does own. No argument.

The reality is that communities do benefit in many ways from having a
premier facility and pro sports franchise in their region. This is why
owners are able to "greenmail" the taxpayers. That is what many large
businesses do to get favorable deals when they have much to offer.

I have witnessed what I think was the absolute height of robber baron
behavior out here at Texas as Jerry Jones was able to not only get money
to build his palace - and it IS a palace - but he also enlisted their
aide in confiscating the land on which it was built from dozens and
dozens of private citizens.

It is in many ways a near criminal abuse of power.

Now that it's over, the immediate area where this palace was built has
been given an amazing facelift. The roads have been improved, the
police are about, the entire area has far more life thanks to the
Jerry's Palace.

You pays your money and you takes your chances. If you don't live in
the area you really shouldn't pretend "not to care" if the team was
moved. Of course you don't care.

No, I don't envision Ross moving the team, but it's hardly outside the
norm of everyone's life experience. How many teams have moved since you
became an NFL fan? How many have moved TWICE since you became an NFL fan?

The arguments against this thing may seem pure and simple, but the
actual issue is complex. Ross is incapable of handling much of anything
with grace or dignity. I think that the number I heard ($400 million)
is a small contribution for the region to make to rejuvenate an aging
stadium that cost them nothing to build but which has probably generated
many billions in tax revenue for the local economy. That isn't a
"bullshit economic argument. This isn't/wasn't just about Super Bowls.

[Stu Gotts]

On May 6, 5:05 pm, euphemism <euphem...@minspring.com> wrote:
> On 5/3/2013 11:58 PM, rt wrote:
>
> > You want a nicer house, Mr. Ross?  Hire contractors and foot the
> > bill.  The rest of us have better things to do and certainly see
> > through the bullshit economic arguments supporting public funding
> > polishing your vast ego trophy.  Super Bowls are vastly overrated
> > anyway.
>

> >http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9240615/florida-legislature-refuses...

It is a completely bullshit argument. Some points to ponder...

Did any of the previous franchises that change cities own their
stadiums? If Ross sells the team to new owners intending to move
it... is the stadium gonna be part of the deal? Assuming that it
is... what are they gonna do with a stadium that they just paid $400
million for?

Did any of the previous franchises that change cities own their
stadiums? Cleveland... Baltimore... LA?

The stadium already exists... what increased economic benefits/area
rejuvenation do you predict for the surrounding area if they: upgrade
the lighting, remove the baseball dugouts, put a semi-canopy over some
of the seats, remove 6,000 lower priced seats and install 3,000 new
high end ones?

Hotel occupancy, restaurant use, and tourism overall is already
sustaining record levels... how will the price gouging during any
extra special event... as opposed to a plain "special event" help the
area? Here are just a few of the already existing "special events":
Miami International Boat show, Food Network South Beach Wine & Food
Festival, Art Basel Miami, Orange Bowl, Sony Ericsson Tennis Open, US
Open Polo Championship, Doral Open, Mercedes-Benz Fashion Week, Urban
Beach Week... and that's besides the winter weather, being the cruise
ship capital of the world... and the Miami Heat drawing an occasional
look see from some folks. (http://tinyurl.com/c2o2peg)

Dee has even gone so far as to claim that Ross didn't know what kinda
shape the stadium was in when he bought it. Really? You want us to
believe that a real estate tycoon, who has made BILLIONS, buying,
developing and selling property, didn't bother doing a walk through
before he handed over more than a billion dollars to Wayne Huizenga?

Hey Stevie... caveat emptor!

If he wants out... great. If he wants to move the team... fine.
Enough is enough. Fuck'em!

[euphemism]

I have pondered your points and read them in other posts. Did my level
best to make it clear that the idea of building or renovating a stadium
is not something that belongs in the taxpayer's back in an ideal world.
The fact is that you and other taxpayers in every locale subsidize
various business interests and this is done in recognition of the
greater benefit that flows from such arrangements. Even if civic pride
were the only value to be gained, there's an argument to be made for
keeping the team and stadium healthy and in place. Ross isn't going to
live forever and no matter how much you may dislike him, he's just a
chapter in the team's story.

I can well remember when South Beach had fallen on very hard times but
then bounced back. When things start going bad, the trend can be hard
to stop. Conversely I have seen what that sort of "fucked up spending"
can do for an area that is in trouble.

Yes, "fuck 'em" is the prevailing attitude.

[rt]

Bang on, I say.

I can see how a SB in Houston may be a big February boom to a town
that doesn't exactly jump out when folks ponder winter vacation spots,
but I think the Dolphins and Ross need Miami Dade more than the
community needs them.

God knows (no offense to anyone in the Miramar/Miami Gardens area) the
surrounding neighborhood is hardly a destination in and of itself, and
little has been done in 26 years to convince fans that anything but
desperately fleeing for safety after games is the only rational
option. Even stadium parking has been a two-plus decade atrocity, and
this should have been fixed in the 1980's.

The Dolphins are being completely disingenuous with this "it's only
fair to bring it up for a vote" argument.

Just because Steve Ross is a billionaire doesn't mean he can control
lawmakers (well, if he was more clever and deft, then sure, he
probably could, but this IS Ross we're talking about). Keep in mind,
Miami-Dade's republican delegation to the FL house were against the
deal. Major power-brokering Reps. Carlos Trujillo and Richard
Corcoran were never courted by Ross and were totally against the
partnership. Why should Tallahassee bother if the locals don't even
like the deal?

Ross won't move the Dolphins. The stadium complicates things too
much. But it wouldn't surprise me to see him sell out and let someone
else who didn't go to high school in Miami Beach figure out how to
move west.

rt

[rt]

I guess another way to look it this is the Dolphins reap what they
sow.

More than a decade without a playoff win and only being competitive in
a year Brady had a broken leg has done a lot to cool local interest.
Combine that with the horrible taxpayer funded abortion built last
year for the Marlins in Little Havana and a generally tough economy,
and you have to wonder what Ross expected. He's willing to pay $700
million of the $1.1 billion for improvements, but now, nothing? He's
been too rich and too isolated for too long. Stu's right- fuck
'em...

rt

[euphemism]

Well, maybe everybody will get lucky and he will sell the team. He's
not getting much return on his investment in terms of success, love or
respect.

[rt]

Yeah, but he's going to be digging the shared network revenue that
ramps up BIG in 2014 with a CBA'd salary cap that doesn't ramp up
nearly as fast. He's getting the kind of return he cares about, I'd
guess...

rt

[euphemism]

I've seen the 30,000 empty seats that seem to be the norm form most home
games.

The last game I attended I had to leave because I got baked in the sun.
I do not know how people stand it. If I were the owner i would wish
to put a lid on that box. I would try to get the tourists to help pay
for it.

[Stu Gotts]

On May 6, 6:59 pm, euphemism <euphem...@minspring.com> wrote:
>
> > Hey Stevie... caveat emptor!
>
> > If he wants out... great.  If he wants to move the team... fine.
> > Enough is enough. Fuck'em!
>
> I have pondered your points and read them in other posts.  Did my level
> best to make it clear that the idea of building or renovating a stadium
> is not something that belongs in the taxpayer's back in an ideal world.
>   The fact is that you and other taxpayers in every locale subsidize
> various business interests and this is done in recognition of the
> greater benefit that flows from such arrangements.  Even if civic pride
> were the only value to be gained, there's an argument to be made for
> keeping the team and stadium healthy and in place.  Ross isn't going to
> live forever and no matter how much you may dislike him, he's just a
> chapter in the team's story.
>
> I can well remember when South Beach had fallen on very hard times but
> then bounced back.  When things start going bad, the trend can be hard
> to stop.  Conversely I have seen what that sort of "fucked up spending"
> can do for an area that is in trouble.
>
> Yes, "fuck 'em" is the prevailing attitude.

Civic pride... for what? A team being the laughingstock of the NFL...
like the Jets? (They have a new stadium.) Having one of the most
idiotic asshole owners in the history of professional football like
Washington? (Their field was built in 1997 and renovated in 2011 and
2012.) I sure as hell wouldn't take much civic pride from them.

Or maybe you're referring to a brand new stadium? Like Jerry Jones
making fools out of the taxpayers in north Texas? And you're 100%
correct... what they did through eminent domain was criminal...
where're those 2nd amendment guys when we REALLY need them?

And what do you think the result of last years Super Bowl fiasco in
Dallas was? Do you think stroking Jerry's ego offset the fact that
now everybody knows not to book an event in Dallas for February? Your
golf game can get snowed out, but you'll be able to bask in a tanning
bed... then fight the sleet storm outside when trying to get to The
Mansion for a swank dinner party.

Or do you think seeing some pretty young gal in short shorts and
halter top sitting in the somewhat slightly worn out 2nd rate seats at
JRS, drinking beer and getting tan while watching a Fins game will be
more beneficial to luring tourists? Don't know about you, but...
unless their showing a close up of her ass on tv, I don't really much
notice what she's sitting on.

[tgowan]

> http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9240615/florida-legislature-refuses...


I'm finding it awfully hard to generate any concern over the comings
and goings of billionaires who pay the salaries of millionaires while
emptying the wallets of people living paycheck to paycheck.
Professional sports owners have been holding localities hostage since
they discovered that it was possible to do so. Everyone can be
counted on to act in their own best interests, others be damned. The
conversation never changes, only the location.

Do I think that Ross should get some kind of dispensation from the
Miami-area taxpayer? No. As a wise man recently said, "Fuck 'em."

But I can't generate any concern over the outcome. If Ross gets a
shiny new building like the A-Hole in Dallas, good for him. If he
sells the team and the Dolphins are moved to LA, good for LA. When
LA, yet again, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the second
largest media market in the country is not profittable for an NFL
franchise, good for the new town that will get the Dolphins /
Earthquakes.

Terry Gowan

[mel.f...@gmail.com]

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[euphemism]

I live here... I know what Jones' stadium has done for the area. If you
like, you can come out and see.

Do I think it's a bargain? Maybe... I know that the new palace Jerry
has is attracting one big event after another. I doubt that's in
anyone's calculus of it's worth. Your reasoning seems to be entirely
predicated on not doing anything to benefit Ross. I'm not about to
argue with anyone who has such anger towards an idea.

The suckiness of the Dolphins predates Ross. He has yet to make things
better - maybe that's finally coming. To me that's at best a tiny part
of the story. The "fuck the rich" attitude in this country borders on
something out of the French Revolution.

[Stu Gotts]

On May 7, 9:57 pm, euphemism <euphem...@minspring.com> wrote:
> On 5/6/2013 6:59 PM, Stu Gotts wrote:
>
> I live here... I know what Jones' stadium has done for the area.  If you
> like, you can come out and see.

Which of those neighborhood benefits do you envision happening to the
area around JRS... had the Florida coffers been kicking in $200
million?

> Do I think it's a bargain?  Maybe... I know that the new palace Jerry
> has is attracting one big event after another.  I doubt that's in
> anyone's calculus of it's worth.  Your reasoning seems to be entirely
> predicated on not doing anything to benefit Ross.  I'm not about to
> argue with anyone who has such anger towards an idea.

I don't blame you. There is no reasonable way for you spin it.
Government has too many other far more beneficial things to spend our
tourist tax money on. Like upgrading the convention center. T

> The suckiness of the Dolphins predates Ross.  He has yet to make things
> better - maybe that's finally coming.  To me that's at best a tiny part
> of the story.

I don't think it's any part of THIS story. This is strictly about the
stadium, not the teams performance.

> The "fuck the rich" attitude in this country borders on
> something out of the French Revolution.

Fuck the rich? Not from anything I've said. Fuck the idea of giving
him our money and getting nothing in return. He's simply not bringing
anything to the party that isn't already there.

We don't need a Super Bowl in order to draw people to South Florida in
February.