Article from Sunday' Star
RDOGuy
interesting, and I am curious to know how others feel about the issues
raised within it. Following the article, I have included some
comments made by readers on the Star site.
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Haley’s Desire to Find Right Players Keeps Chiefs on Their Toes
By KENT BABB
The Kansas City Star
Derrick Johnson is pacing in a hallway, trying to find the words. He
says he has no idea where he stands with the Chiefs. He didn’t watch
television on Tuesday because that was the NFL’s trade deadline. He
couldn’t relax on his day off at the same time he was worrying about
his future.
Johnson wasn’t traded. It is less than 24 hours after the deadline
passed, and emotions are taking hold. Anger and confusion pinch
hardest.
“You don’t really know,” he says, barely above a whisper. “I know I’m
right for this defense. I’m right for this team. I’m versatile. I can
fit in any kind of defense, really. I don’t know, man. I don’t know.”
Johnson doesn’t know because the Chiefs don’t want him to know. He was
demoted weeks ago. A few injuries. A few weak practices. Down to third-
string at linebacker he went, no explanation provided. The team wants
players to do precisely what Johnson is doing: walking around without
answers, but determined to uncover them and improve enough that the
Chiefs have no choice but to play him.
Johnson says he’d like to think he fits the profile of what the Chiefs
are looking for. This season is important, but as important as
anything is building a roster that coach Todd Haley says consists of
the “right 53” players. Haley says that’s more important to him than
having the most talented group. Fitness, belief and work ethic are the
equalizers; skill is the separator.
Still, specifics are not provided to players, only the notion that if
a man will not or cannot do his job the way Haley and his staff
require, then the Chiefs will find those who will and can. The roster
already has been through a cleansing process. It’s not finished.
“One day, the right 53 might include you,” tight end Sean Ryan says.
“The next day, it might not.”
“No matter how good you are,” wide receiver Dwayne Bowe says, “if
you’re doing it right, you might have a chance.”
“You’d better not take your position on this team for granted,”
outside linebacker Mike Vrabel says. “We’re all here right now. That
could change daily and weekly. These guys, they’re not going to stop.”
As the Chiefs advance into a season that seems equal parts an effort
in improvement and a telling social experiment, the pile of casualties
is growing. Third-year defensive lineman Tank Tyler was traded to
Carolina on Monday. He had potential, but the Chiefs believe upgrades
are available.
“There are guys out there,” Haley says, “that are better, we think,
than what we have.”
Players who don’t fit Haley’s version of perfection are ridiculed,
threatened, issued final chances and then given up on — not always in
such an orderly fashion. What remains is an agonizing existence for
some players, who watch as their teammates pack their things and
depart Chiefs headquarters.
On this day, Johnson leans against a wall in a quiet corridor.
“Coach definitely wants us to be strong-minded,” he says. “Sometimes,
to get something done or to be successful, you’ve got to be
uncomfortable.”
He exhales.
“It’s uncomfortable,” he says.
• • •
There are things that test Haley’s patience and drive him all the way
into a full-fledged rage, but he’d prefer to discuss the things he
likes in a player.
The first is that he is willing to put the team above personal glory
and achievement. Bowe had to learn that one during training camp. The
flexing, dancing, cocky wideout was told to tone down the act — unless
he preferred to take that act to the road. Starters must be willing to
teach backups and tutor reserves — even if that means increasing the
possibility of the teacher someday losing his job to a student.
“Some guys aren’t wired that way,” Haley says, and he’s willing to
part ways with those players.
Another is for players to follow instructions, even if they don’t
immediately make sense or cater to their skills. Ryan signed with the
Chiefs as a veteran blocking tight end. He met with Haley, who had
other plans, and now Ryan is known more as a receiving option.
“Whatever kind of tight end it’s going to be,” Ryan remembers
thinking, “I’m going to prove to them I can do it all.”
But the tallest challenge for Haley has been establishing a philosophy
that injuries, which he says are occasionally unavoidable, are
sometimes viewed as a sign of weakness. Free safety Jarrad Page faced
doubts after he suggested during the preseason that an injury should
keep him out of the Chiefs’ third exhibition game. Johnson has endured
several nagging injuries that kept him on the sideline during
practices and threatened his job security.
Haley has made it clear that the way players react to injuries might
determine their futures in Kansas City. If players nurse their wounds
too long or report minor issues as long-lasting problems, Haley takes
mental notes.
“Always show that you’re a guy that wants to be here,” Haley says,
“who won’t look for ways out of practice but will look for ways in.”
Haley says it’s about toughness. That if players rise above aches and
confront even significant injuries, it builds a kind of mental
toughness that other teams envy. He says the best teams are made up of
players who detest the idea of spending a day on the rehab field. The
Chiefs’ training room has been stripped of luxuries, and Haley says
it’s designed to make it feel less like a lounge and more like a
prison cell. Haley said his vision for progress is a day when the
rehab field is empty.
Johnson says now that players have learned to hide their injuries. For
better or worse, they downplay minor health concerns because of how
the opposite reaction might be interpreted. When Johnson hurt his
groin this month, he remembers pedaling on a stationary bike and
coming to a startling realization.
“Damn,” he says, “I’m the only one. Nobody’s limping out there.”
Whether it’s because of improved conditioning, good luck or fear of
Haley’s wrath, the Chiefs’ injury report the last month has looked
bare. When the final report was released before the Chiefs’ game
against the New York Giants, the Giants listed 12 injured players
compared with the Chiefs’ two. A week later, Dallas listed nine
injured players to the Chiefs’ three. Last week, Washington listed
seven players and the Chiefs listed three.
“You’ve got to practice to play, and that’s the way it is,” Haley
says. “We’ve made it clear to them that it’s not going to be
tolerated.”
This past Friday, players gathered for a morning practice. They
stretched and ran sprints at the team’s indoor facility. A few dozen
yards away, the team’s trainer, Cedric Smith, folded his arms. The
stationary bikes were still. The heavy equipment stayed put.
Just as Haley had imagined it, the conditioning field was empty.
• • •
Talent doesn’t trump everything. Haley says the best teams aren’t
those with the best players but rather with the best mix of players.
It’s because of that, he says, that some of the Chiefs’ more talented
players have been banished. Haley says that Tyler and former
quarterback Tyler Thigpen were traded because neither could help the
team quickly enough or in the right way. Both were traded for fifth-
round picks in next year’s NFL draft.
“He probably could’ve developed and been somebody,” Haley says of
Thigpen. “But when you start weighing: Where’s he at right now? What
can he be? What can we get; what can we turn that pick into?
“And the same with Tank. Tank is a guy that has a lot of potential
that we all liked and thought could be a good player. But how high,
where could he get — what’s the ceiling? What could we get? What can
we turn that player into? It’s constant.”
Haley says the constant evaluating keeps coaches abreast of the
Chiefs’ long-term prospects and the free-agent landscape. It also
keeps players on edge, which Haley says keeps them sharp.
“They want guys who are willing to do whatever they can to help this
team win,” Vrabel says. “Guys who aren’t willing to do that, then they
shouldn’t ask questions when they’re released or traded.”
Vrabel says he’s used to this kind of approach. He spent eight seasons
with the New England Patriots, who he says holds players to similar
standards. It’s not new to Vrabel. It is new to others.
Johnson walks toward a meeting room and stops. He is a former first-
round pick who hasn’t reached his potential. Now he is Demorrio
Williams’ backup, and Williams has played so well that he hasn’t
allowed Johnson a chance to reclaim his spot. Still, Johnson wonders
why he was benched in the first place. Was it his effort? Work ethic?
Training habits? He says he doesn’t know.
But Johnson says that he’ll just have to keep trying to improve in all
areas to try to win back his starting job. He says he’s determined to
make it right. That’s why — although Johnson hasn’t been told this —
the Chiefs like him and see him in their future. That’s why they
didn’t trade him last week. Regardless, they’d prefer that Johnson
remained uncomfortable.
“Football teaches you you’ve got to have a strong mind, man,” Johnson
says. “Just putting the pieces to the puzzle together. Just making a
team.
“It’s going to make us better.”
• • •
Haley lifts himself from a rolling chair and straightens himself. His
back has been giving him problems this week, and he’s not sure why.
Still …
“Got to be tough,” he says with a smile.
Haley says part of his job is to be the bad guy, to make certain that
players understand what is expected of them — and cut ties with them
if they don’t meet those expectations. Neither assignment is easy, and
Haley insists he had no delusions that his job would be simple.
Haley heads toward the door. As he steps into a hallway, he’s greeted
by general manager Scott Pioli. The team just worked out another
player. Haley says that when there’s a new face in the building, the
Chiefs’ players stay at attention. They’re aware of what it might
mean. Adding a player would mean that someone else is out. There’s no
such thing as the right 54.
“Their ears are up,” Haley says. “They’re aware of it, and I think
that them understanding that that’s the culture, and that’s the way
it’s going to be — I tell them all the time: ‘It’s always going to be
like that.’
“It’s a work in progress, obviously, and it’ll stay a work in progress
forever.”
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comments
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There is nothing wrong with demanding the highest possible standard of
performance, nor with making players compete for their positions - in
fact, that is necessary for a winning organization. However, demoted
players should always be informed of the reasons for their demotion.
That is Management 101, in the NFL, or in the business world. A
culture in which players are forced to "hide" injuries, however, is a
two-edged sword. Yes, you want to ensure that there is no malingering
going on, but if minor injuries turn into major, long-term injuries,
then the team has a major problem. A player attempting to play while
injured is less likely to provide the level of on-field performance
that is expected and needed.
-----------------------------------------
I like all of this because it was so obvious how poorly conditioned
Herm's teams were, but you cant have players hiding real injuries
because they think they are going to lose their starting job. You
should also definitely explain to a player why he has been demoted. If
not, how do they fix what got them demoted?
-----------------------------------------
Before these guys are football players, they are human beings. I hope
the NFL and players association looks into the injury situation. I
think Haley's ambition for tough, smart football team is great, but I
hate that he strips these men of their dignity. He wants players sold
out for the team, yet he doesn't have the decency to speak to them man
to man about where they stand. It's like disciplining a child and not
telling the child why. That child doesn't learn discipline but fear.
So how far away are the Chiefs from getting 22 men off the street now?
-----------------------------------------
Todd Haley never played college or pro football so he lacks the
personal experience of enduring the pain of the injury or the rehab.
That does not detract from his ability to coach, but it does make him
seem like a hypocritical martinet.
Granted, the team seems to play with a higher level of concentration
and awareness, they are on their toes. Granted, injuries are a part of
playing football and they do have trainers to deal with that. Granted,
they are paid well and should expect to compete to stay on the field
and on the team.
But given the increasing public awareness of the dreadful toll
football can take on a man's body, particularly regarding head
injuries, you must wonder if there is not a collision coming between
the "just suck it up and play" attitude of coaches and the
increasingly vocal response of the NFLPA and the retired players
confined to wheelchairs or condemned to dementia long before their
time.
-----------------------------------------
DJ I think the entire city knows why you're on the bench. It's because
you have absolutely ZERO work ethic and ZERO effort, and you're good
for at best a couple of good games a year, and the rest of the time
you're completely invisible out there. MAN UP OR GET OUT!
-----------------------------------------
Who knows if Haley will make a good coach in the long run? If his
expectations are 1) put the team first, 2) follow instructions, do
what you are told, 3) try to stay on the field, be a guy who WANTS to
play, not just collect a check. That all sounds reasonable to me. What
winning team would not have those expectations.
Do we have any players who should be comfortable? Who on the roster
has achieved anything? Waters, yes. Tony G is gone (as he requested),
he did not believe he was surrounded by players who could get it done
anytime soon. If you are a Chief who does not believe this is the
right way to run things you should be like Tony and ask to be let go.
No doubt the other NFL teams will fight to acquire your services. You
would have a lot of options, right?
Why would (should) anyone be comfortable on a team that rarely wins?
This team NEEDED a lot of change. Eventually Pioli and Haley will be
graded on the performance of this team and their jobs will be on the
line
-----------------------------------------
I love this attitude Pioli/Haley have. This isn't going to be the most
talented team, but they will be the toughest, meanest bunch of sob's
in the NFL. They're going to be the Packers of the 60', the Raiders of
the 70's. If Derrick Johnson has a house in KC, he might as well get
it ready for sell, because it's evident he would rather look for
sympathy from the press and public than give 100% on the field. If he
wants to stay with this team, he needs to shut his mouth, get PO'd,
and smash people in theirs. Can you even imagine a Butkus, Nitchski,
Lanier, Huff, Singletary,Hendricks, Lambert, etc. saying the stuff DJ
is. Now there is one former Chief great, if not the greatest, I wonder
about though, Bobby Bell. I saw him practice a few times, and don't
know if he ever broke a sweat. I wonder if he would have made a Haley
team?
-----------------------------------------
Well, if this kind of attitude is good for the players, shouldn't it
be good for the head coach? Kansas City has experienced some really
talented coaches; Hank Stram, Marv Levy, Dick Vermeil. Can you imagine
any of them using any kind of humiliation to motivate their players?
Would you advocate it in your job? Is it possible that this first-year
head coach is simply over his head and his reaction to being totally
overwhelmed is to find scapegoats?
He says that there are probably better players out there and the right
approach is to get rid of current players and go get those better
players. Okay, try this one on for size, 'coach'. Is it possible that
there are better head coaches out there? Let's see... Jon
Gruden....Tony Dungy...Brian Billick...Mike Holmgren....Mike
Shanahan...Bill Cowher....Steve Mariucci...
I don't think that this team will every be successful with this
'coach' running things.......
-----------------------------------------
Yeah this isn't good. Sometimes an assistant can get away with
motivation by fear but there comes a time when people just wear out on
it and when that happens you lose them all. I think that happened
already. I coached 30 years at the high school and college level, seen
some bad actors in my time, been one sometimes, but I have never seen
anyone act like this or coach like this. The only thing I can say is
that this is a guy who has never had to experience anything like this
in his life and he doesn't really have any clue what guys in the
trenches go thru or what they get sick of. I am surprised he is still
upright but I notice he picks the guys he does and does not get in the
face of. That is the only wise thing I see in this guy.
-----------------------------------------
You know what 'Fail'ey reminds me of and I think that just about
everyone can relate to it. He reminds me of the spoiled only child who
after Christmas received that toy that all the kids in the
neighborhood had coveted. So when you go over to play and he brings it
out, he says you can only play with it a certain way and only for a
minute. Any time that someone does anything to that toy that is not
the way he wants it done, he throws a tantrum. To me, he is a coach
who does not coach but screams and trys to blame others for failures.
Another example is the micromanager boss that everyone has at one
time. They guy who tries to get into every facet of something even
though they might know nothing of it and brings in his cronies in
upper level positions. Then when the dung hits the fans, then it is
everyone else's fault except his. Just my opinion
-----------------------------------------
How in heaven's name can you run any offense when the line is out to
lunch? They do not blow anybody off the line--at best they sink back
in the fetal position hoping something will happen soon. Contrast that
to the good OLs who give their QB lots of time to look the formations
over and throw. Haley inherited a pathetic mix of players right after
King Karl gave away the best pass rusher. He inherited a game plan
that was like trying to run a pro set with a junior high B-team! Karl
and Herm left this team in one mell of a hess--maybe Haley has temper
tantrums. How much underperformance can the team stand before they get
it right?
-----------------------------------------
Haley hasn't figured out that people, even football players, don't do
well when treated like dirt.
His ego far exceeds any coaching talent he may have, and that's a
fact.
The continuous thrashings the Chefs take from even mediocre teams is
the proof.
As a Bronco fan, I can only hope the Chefs are dumb enough to keep
Haley and Pioli around.
Nunya Bidnits
clip---->
I'll just respond to some of the comments as if they were posted here...
> -----------------------------------------
> comments
> -----------------------------------------
>
> There is nothing wrong with demanding the highest possible standard of
> performance, nor with making players compete for their positions - in
> fact, that is necessary for a winning organization. However, demoted
> players should always be informed of the reasons for their demotion.
> That is Management 101, in the NFL, or in the business world. A
> culture in which players are forced to "hide" injuries, however, is a
> two-edged sword. Yes, you want to ensure that there is no malingering
> going on, but if minor injuries turn into major, long-term injuries,
> then the team has a major problem. A player attempting to play while
> injured is less likely to provide the level of on-field performance
> that is expected and needed.
>
Why is management 101 in the business world the same as in the NFL? I think
it's what's comfortable for you, and you see it work in the business models
in which you reside. But that doesn't mean it works in every direction of
human endeavor.
I think there is, and should be, a greater similarity with military
management than the business world. After all, it's a physical, punishing,
conditioning and training focused war. As in the military, when people rise
to higher levels of accomplishment or trust from their superiors, the
pressure eases up, they share in more information, and are more welcome in
the decision process. But those situations are purely at the discretion of
higher ranking officers. But the first thing anyone who wants to be
successful in the military has to accept is that you follow orders, you
don't ask questions, and you especially don't ask why or challenge your
superiors. You don't demand explanations where none is given, and you
realize quickly that expecting superiors to take a counseling posture in
managing your work is going to lead to disappointment and lack of progress.
I think that's the difference between the Edwards and Haley models... one is
a PC business model, and one is a military model. And I think we've seen
what happens with the Edwards model, and especially, I don't think that
model works when you are starting from scratch. Imagine if boot camps were
all PC and full of guidance counseling, multiple chances, and patient
explanations. We'd have never kicked the British out of the US!
Maybe when things become better established a different model would suit
this football team, but right now, the job is to right a shipwreck using a
large percentage of untested and untrained or poorly trained personnel. It's
not going to be easy, and those who will succeed will be those who ask "how
high" when told to jump.
We've already seen what the business model can do under Herm Edwards. He was
a players' coach, interested, sympathetic, personal, and most of all, a
failure.
> -----------------------------------------
>
> I like all of this because it was so obvious how poorly conditioned
> Herm's teams were, but you cant have players hiding real injuries
> because they think they are going to lose their starting job. You
> should also definitely explain to a player why he has been demoted. If
> not, how do they fix what got them demoted?
>
Yeah, but you can't hide injuries which are true impairments to physical
activity and performance, and from that report, it's exceedingly clear that
it's a night and day difference between Haley's team, and the fat, poorly
conditioned, and ill trained players of the Edwards era. So what if Haley
doesn't tolerate whining about minor injuries? It's always been a hallmark
of the greatest players in most sports that they are able to play through
pain, and differentiate between that which hurts, and that which disables.
It's not as if trainers and doctors don't look at reports of pain and
injuries, and it's not as if their evaluations aren't submitted to coaches
and management. They have a very good idea which aches and pains are
significant, and which can be played through.
The fact that Haley seems to keep a hard line drawn between the two, and yet
has very few serious injuries on his team, is a testament to the wisdom and
effectiveness of his hard nosed conditioning program. And at this point I
think it's finally fair to compare the injury situation of Herm Edwards'
Chiefs to Haley's, and note that indeed, one of Edwards huge failings, and a
major reason for his lack of success, was his lack of attention to proper
physical conditioning. He did not have a demanding style in that area, and
we now see just how much that cost him in terms of player injuries, and I
think in the future we will also see how much that cost him in terms of
performance.
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Before these guys are football players, they are human beings. I hope
> the NFL and players association looks into the injury situation. I
> think Haley's ambition for tough, smart football team is great, but I
> hate that he strips these men of their dignity. He wants players sold
> out for the team, yet he doesn't have the decency to speak to them man
> to man about where they stand. It's like disciplining a child and not
> telling the child why. That child doesn't learn discipline but fear.
As far as dignity, I think Haley sees this season the way a drill sergeant
sees boot camp. They have to make it all the way through, not just do well
once or twice. They have to run the gauntlet over time, and then they will
get respect, and obviously in endeavor, Haley treats everyone the same way.
I think that's fair, and I think it's a solid approach to turning this mess
around.
>
> So how far away are the Chiefs from getting 22 men off the street now?
That's a question with no legitimate answer.
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Todd Haley never played college or pro football so he lacks the
> personal experience of enduring the pain of the injury or the rehab.
> That does not detract from his ability to coach, but it does make him
> seem like a hypocritical martinet.
He knows the emotional and psychological pain of playing golf. Nothing on
earth could be worse. ;-)
>
> Granted, the team seems to play with a higher level of concentration
> and awareness, they are on their toes. Granted, injuries are a part of
> playing football and they do have trainers to deal with that. Granted,
> they are paid well and should expect to compete to stay on the field
> and on the team.
There's actually a "but" to that?
>
> But given the increasing public awareness of the dreadful toll
> football can take on a man's body, particularly regarding head
> injuries, you must wonder if there is not a collision coming between
> the "just suck it up and play" attitude of coaches and the
> increasingly vocal response of the NFLPA and the retired players
> confined to wheelchairs or condemned to dementia long before their
> time.
Dementia? Hey, they are very well aware of the concussion situation these
days, and I don't see where Haley's team is treated any differently than any
other in that respect, and the NFL has become a diligent overseer in the
fight to reduce the long and short term consequences of concussions.
Physically I don't think the confinement to wheelchairs etc. has to do with
aches and pains, but with more quantifiable injuries, as well as the sheer
wear and tear of that kind of work. Other forms of very physical work also
take a toll, and yet the work must be done, and there will always be those
willing to do it if the price is right. It's a short career compressed in
activity and earnings to a fraction of most careers, and that also means the
toll it takes will be likewise compressed. And that means being sometimes
uncomfortable, and playing through pain, but I don't think there is any
grounds for singling out Haley, if that's what you're doing, as pursuing
methods which will result in any worse physical degeneration down the road
than any other method.
In fact, I will go as far as to suggest that the lazy-ass Herm Edwards
approach to condition puts players at much more risk, both on immediate
terms, and in long term consequences of injuries, many of which may not have
been suffered had his players been better conditioned. And in fact I wonder
if what bugs Haley about DJ is the possibility that he was so often injured
under the past program that he's already past the point of no return as a
reliably healthy player. And furthermore if that's what he thinks, he'd be
silly to say so, because then it would just diminish any value he may have
to other teams who are already nervous about DJs injury history.
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> DJ I think the entire city knows why you're on the bench. It's because
> you have absolutely ZERO work ethic and ZERO effort, and you're good
> for at best a couple of good games a year, and the rest of the time
> you're completely invisible out there. MAN UP OR GET OUT!
>
And maybe it's because of what I just said, and because maybe he already
feels physically beat and used up. I think it's actually a combination of
both, and again, we go back to the methods of the Edwards era, where this
first round player was not forced to man up or get out from the first day,
was not pressured to be in the best physical condition possible, and was not
treated as just another guy in boot camp who better suck it up and get it
done, or get out. In other words, I think the damage is done, and may not be
reversible, and I place responsibility for that on Herm Edwards, who was
supposed to develop DJ as a player, not Todd Haley. DJ should have been a
standup, ready to go, productive player when Haley walked in the door, and
I'm guessing he's one of Coach's greater disappointments coming in.
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Who knows if Haley will make a good coach in the long run? If his
> expectations are 1) put the team first, 2) follow instructions, do
> what you are told, 3) try to stay on the field, be a guy who WANTS to
> play, not just collect a check. That all sounds reasonable to me. What
> winning team would not have those expectations.
>
> Do we have any players who should be comfortable? Who on the roster
> has achieved anything? Waters, yes. Tony G is gone (as he requested),
> he did not believe he was surrounded by players who could get it done
> anytime soon. If you are a Chief who does not believe this is the
> right way to run things you should be like Tony and ask to be let go.
> No doubt the other NFL teams will fight to acquire your services. You
> would have a lot of options, right?
Waters abdicated his right to be comfortable when he went off like a four
year old having a tantrum before the new regime could even move into their
houses.
No, I think he sees himself as the drill sergeant who has just been handed
the fattest, whiniest, most spoiled batch of weak-assed recruits he's ever
seen in his life.
> He says that there are probably better players out there and the right
> approach is to get rid of current players and go get those better
> players. Okay, try this one on for size, 'coach'. Is it possible that
> there are better head coaches out there? Let's see... Jon
> Gruden....Tony Dungy...Brian Billick...Mike Holmgren....Mike
> Shanahan...Bill Cowher....Steve Mariucci...
And what did those coaches inherit coming into their jobs, which ones rose
through a system already estagblished, which ones struggled with both their
own abilities and the lack of abilities of their teams, and which ones found
that success is a constant struggle, not a rise to the top where you then
sit on the perch as long as you wish? You know the answers, and you know
it's not fair to Haley to expect he won't go through the same struggles.
And I think you also know that as a new coach coming in, under a new GM also
coming in, both of whom are rookies, inheriting one of the most god awful,
poorly conditioned, poorly coached, and poorly staffed teams in the history
of the NFL, that he faces a task more monumental than any of those coaches
you just listed. What those names tell me is that Haley has the balls to try
to fit into their shoes, and we should give him a chance to do it before we
start questioning his methods, and understand that part of his method may
have to amount to taking a flame thrower to the trashpile he found when he
walked onto the field.
>
> I don't think that this team will every be successful with this
> 'coach' running things.......
>
Then maybe it's time to find some other sport to watch because he's going to
be here a while, and he's in the same boat as any other coach who may have
come in here, facing massive obstacles and unrealistic expectatios on a
daily basis.
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Yeah this isn't good. Sometimes an assistant can get away with
> motivation by fear but there comes a time when people just wear out on
> it and when that happens you lose them all. I think that happened
> already. I coached 30 years at the high school and college level, seen
> some bad actors in my time, been one sometimes, but I have never seen
> anyone act like this or coach like this. The only thing I can say is
> that this is a guy who has never had to experience anything like this
> in his life and he doesn't really have any clue what guys in the
> trenches go thru or what they get sick of. I am surprised he is still
> upright but I notice he picks the guys he does and does not get in the
> face of. That is the only wise thing I see in this guy.
This former coach doesn't tell us about his own record of success, either on
the field, or by players he coached after they moved on. And he seems to
completely ignore the fact that Haley has a long coaching resume, one which
tells a story of massively greater success than his own, so frankly I think
those comments are just bullshit. He doesn't say what he should do, he just
lobs turds over the wall of oblivion into the real world.
Some of the comments didn't impress me enough to respond so they are
clipped.
---clip silly comment---
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> How in heaven's name can you run any offense when the line is out to
> lunch? They do not blow anybody off the line--at best they sink back
> in the fetal position hoping something will happen soon. Contrast that
> to the good OLs who give their QB lots of time to look the formations
> over and throw. Haley inherited a pathetic mix of players right after
> King Karl gave away the best pass rusher. He inherited a game plan
> that was like trying to run a pro set with a junior high B-team! Karl
> and Herm left this team in one mell of a hess--maybe Haley has temper
> tantrums. How much underperformance can the team stand before they get
> it right?
>
There's a comment that's right on point. The lines are trash, and they
didn't go into the crapper under Haley. The core basis of all football teams
are the offensive and defensive lines. Nothing much productive can happen if
they can't execute the basics of the game, and Haley inherited a pair of
absolutely horrid lines. And it's pretty clear that in trading away Allen,
the compensation recieved is far from showing similar value, and in
retrospect, which is the only fair way to evaluate trades and draft picks,
it's not looking very good so far.
> -----------------------------------------
>
> Haley hasn't figured out that people, even football players, don't do
> well when treated like dirt.
>
> His ego far exceeds any coaching talent he may have, and that's a
> fact.
>
> The continuous thrashings the Chefs take from even mediocre teams is
> the proof.
>
> As a Bronco fan, I can only hope the Chefs are dumb enough to keep
> Haley and Pioli around.
I can appreciate how such an ignorant, mindless, and mean spirited response
could come from a Bronco fan.
;-)
MartyB in KC
Da Blue Guy
demoted. Maybe he doesn't understand it, maybe he doesn't agree with
it(I don't either), but I doubt it's some mystical reason that he's in
the dark about. From what I've read about both Pioli and Haley's
background, at NE, and Chicago/Dallas/Arizona, respectively, they are
both extremely communicative with their players(not the press, which is
probably why this article and others have the slant they do), and lay
things out pretty clearly, when watching film, and other times, what
their expectations are. Some players "get it", some don't, and
regardless of their talent, they won't be around for the long haul if
they don't. DJ has admitted himself he must be more consistent, and one
of Haley's credos is he wants the same guy every day, not a yo yo
player. So again, what exactly is DJ in the dark about?
As for the injury stuff, and the uncomfortability stuff, and some other
stuff, it's pure Parcells/Belicheck. We know it works, and it's what
both Pioli and Haley know. It's culture shock to this team, and this
town, and this team's fans, after a decade of 2 of the softest, mushiest
Coaches in the recent NFL in Vermeil and Edwards. And that's precisely
why it's so badly needed here.
I think Vrabel's comments are the most cogent in the article, and for
any Chief player, or fan, that doesn't quite "get" what's going on, his
words should be read, re-read, and digested.
Pioli and Haley aren't going anywhere, as much as lots of the press
would like them to. So they, the players, and the fans, better get used
to the new way of doing things because it's not going to change anytime
soon.
"22 players off the street could win 2 games"- Todd Haley.
Dabl...@webtv.net
RDOGuy
september.invalid> wrote:
> I think there is, and should be, a greater similarity with military
> management than the business world.
You make an interesting point, Marty - one that has a lot of merit.
Certainly I'll agree that NFL players ought to do what the coaches
want - whether threy agree with it or not.
But IMO, the argument breaks down in two places. First, NFL players
have to rely more on individual initiative more than a dogface sojer.
They have to use their heads when they're out on the field. Second,
grunts get paid a helluva lot less than the NFL minimum, and aren't
asked to give autographs. It's pretty hard to imagine an army drill
sergeant getting much traction with recruits who just signed contracts
worth millions of dollars.
So I'll agree with you that what you called the "PC business model"
isn't quite right. But I don't think the military model is quite
right, either. Managing people is tough under any circumstances...
but when you add in the money and fame that comes with being an NFL
player, it becomes something quite different. I'm glad I don't have
to do it.
> Yeah, but you can't hide injuries which are true impairments to physical
> activity and performance, and from that report, it's exceedingly clear that
> it's a night and day difference between Haley's team, and the fat, poorly
> conditioned, and ill trained players of the Edwards era. So what if Haley
> doesn't tolerate whining about minor injuries? It's always been a hallmark
> of the greatest players in most sports that they are able to play through
> pain, and differentiate between that which hurts, and that which disables.
Personally, I think Haley's concept of a "rehab area" for injured
players is a great idea. This sends the message that you can't sleep
in and play Nintendo at home simply because you twisted your ankle or
got a deep thigh bruise in last Sunday's game. And as I've previously
said, Haley's conditioning program certainly seems to have paid some
benefits in terms of player availability.
Yes... it's true that we consider players who "play through pain"
heroic. Vince Lombardi was famous for saying that "hurt is in the
mind." But it's exactly that attitude - carried to extremes - that
creates guys like Sherrill Headrick, who for so many years appeared on
Chiefs Alumni days in a wheelchair. Or to use a more modern
example... Patriots linebacker Ted Johnson.
It's OK with me if players don't use minor injuries as an excuse to
miss practice. But what concerns me is that if this is carried too
far, players will start to feel that they can't report these injuries
to the trainers or coaches. A minor injury - that is, one that isn't
disabling - is the very type of injury that trainers and coaches might
not even know about unless a player brings it to their attention.
Coaches need to know the physical condition of all their players.
It's information that should be factored into many of the decisions
they make.... from game day scratches to whether they should go for it
on their own 41.
Like so many things, it's not so much a question of principle, but
deciding on exactly where you draw the line. If the Chiefs injury
report each week showed half as many players as the other team, I
wouldn't be concerned. I'd just be saying, "Wow... Haley's
conditioning program really works!" But it seems to be showing far
less than half... and to me, this suggests that Haley could be pushing
this a little too hard for his own good.
> He knows the emotional and psychological pain of playing golf. Nothing on
> earth could be worse. ;-)
ROFL - true that.
I haven't checked this fact for myself - I imagine it wouldn't be easy
to do - but I've read that Haley is the only current NFL coach that
didn't play the game at some level. Does this matter? Allow me to
take you into a discussion I had with one of my colleagues from the
fourth level at Arrowhead on Sunday:
We were talking about the question I asked Haley in the press
conference after the Cowboys game - the one about the two point
conversion. He said, "Well... you know, it's easy for us to sit up
here in the press box and second guess that decision. He only has
seconds to make it, so he doesn't have the time to consider factors
such as how the fans and media will blame him instead of the team if
it doesn't pan out." He was exactly right, of course.
But here's what I'm wondering: would that decision have been easier
for Haley to make if he'd had the benefit of playing the game - even
in high school? Perhaps he would have had the experience of being
part of a team that was in a similar situation, saw how it played out,
and could file it away for future reference. That wouldn't have given
him any more seconds to make the decision in the Cowboys game, but
experience does allow you to consider your options more quickly -
which in the end, gives you more time to make the right call.
I think it's great that Haley got to dissect game films with his dad.
In my opinion, without that experience, he never would have been able
to break into the NFL coaching ranks in the first place, and he
wouldn't now be the head coach of the Chiefs. But while watching game
films with an expert at a young age gave Haley that advantage, he did
miss out on an advantage that is apparently shared by other head
coaches: to be part of teams at the high school or college level... to
live through (and learn from) those struggles. I think that's part of
why his game time decisions have sometimes been questionable, and why
he is having trouble relating to his players.
John
Nunya Bidnits
...clipping some.....
I really don't agree. He doesn't play, he coaches. Archie Manning had two
kids at his knee too. Look at them. They don't coach, they play.
Look at almost every successful racing driver in the country. They grew up
around it. In fact it's nearly impossible unless you're independently
wealthy to rise to a high level in motor racing in just one generation. So
there's a lot to be said for it, and you don't have to be something else to
succeed at what you've been brought up to do from the time you could walk.
And factually, Haley has been in coaching for a very long time. What you're
suggesting in terms of relating to players is something that would be valid
for a rookie coach, and by that I don't mean rookie head coach, but just
coaching overall. He's had plenty of time to learn, and decide what the best
way is for him to relate to players, get his message across, and get the
performance he needs out of players. By reputation, he didn't make friends,
but he did make some stars. Just look at the Cards. Do you think Boldin
would have ever been a superstar if he had been coached by someone like Herm
Edwards? I don't.
MartyB in KC