SI.com: Ellis’ defense is red flag for interested teams [a must read -AL]
Allen
Really opened my eyes. I thought he was an OK defender, it was just
that he didn't have the energy to go all out against those larger guys
all the time and still play 10,000 minutes a game. Lowe includes that
as an argument, but it goes well beyond that. -AL
===============================================
The Point Forward
Zach Lowe on the NBA
Ellis’ defense is red flag for interested teams
http://nba-point-forward.si.com/2011/06/22/ellis-defense-is-red-flag-for-interested-teams/
Monta Ellis usually had to defend both the league's best shooting
guards, including Kobe Bryant, and best point guards. (AP)
The first thing that jumps out when you watch hundreds of clips of the
Warriors’ Monta Ellis playing defense is this: It is astounding how
much trouble such a good player and such a good athlete has with
simple change-of-direction moves. Ellis ranked as one the worst
isolation defenders in the league last season, and the tape of his one-
on-one defense is an endless reel of brutal crossovers, reckless
gambles and spin moves that leave him flailing out of position.
It’s not just Ellis’ penchant for chasing steals that gets him in
trouble; remarkably, even marginal players like Gerald Henderson just
destroy him on change-of-direction dribble moves when the Golden State
guard does his best to play standard one-on-one defense. Scouts and
coaches, including former Warriors coach Keith Smart, have noticed
these quirks and have various explanations for them.
Those varying explanations hint at why Ellis, the endless subject of
trade rumors, is perhaps the most divisive player in the league. He’s
either touted as the NBA’s third-best shooting guard, or ripped as a
selfish gunner, defensive sieve and all-around team-killer Golden
State should look to unload the first chance it gets. Even Ellis’
supporters, including Smart and Warriors general manager Larry Riley,
recognize his flaws, and potential trade partners have to ask
themselves: Are those issues unique to Golden State, or will they
follow Ellis wherever he goes?
Ellis’ allegedly poor defense is at the center of that question. As
many have pointed out, the Warriors have been much better defensively
with Ellis on the bench for three straight seasons. That statistic has
its flaws, especially considering how many minutes Ellis plays (a
league-leading 40.3 minutes per game last season), but his critics
have a growing pile of evidence that he is fatal to the Warriors’
already-limited defense. Those who have hope for Ellis hold strongly
to two caveats:
• The Warriors did not exactly prioritize defense under Don Nelson,
who coached Ellis for four years before being replaced by Smart last
season. Their transition defense has long been abysmal, Nelson’s wacky
lineups didn’t help and Golden State was horrendous defensively in
2008-09, when Ellis played just 25 games.
• Ellis was miscast as the guy charged with defending every opponent’s
best perimeter player. Smart clearly did not think Stephen Curry was
ready for that kind of challenge, usually leaving Ellis to defend both
the league’s best shooting guards (Kobe Bryant, Joe Johnson, Eric
Gordon) and the best point guards (Deron Williams, Chris Paul, Steve
Nash). Pair Ellis with a more capable defender, and perhaps he can
have more “off” nights guarding Marco Belinelli, Raja Bell, Derek
Fisher, Kirk Hinrich and Eric Bledsoe.
“Part of his deficiency stems from where he played,” said one scout
who has followed Ellis’ career closely. “There was not a lot of time
spent teaching the way it should be done. He was not required to
defend.”
The hope, according to this scout and others, would be that Ellis
becomes a neutral defensive presence on a team with a rigid system and
under a coach who holds players accountable to that system.
But, man, those bad habits. Let’s start with the blow-bys. Watch
enough of them, and it becomes clear that Ellis suffers from shaky
footwork and a defensive stance that is far too upright. Opponents can
use his momentum against him, but they often don’t even need to do
that because Ellis is almost standing straight up, vulnerable to a
speedy drive. Smart said he noticed the same thing and tried to
correct it.
“You have to sit down in a saddle, really bend down and slide,” Smart
said. “And that comes with having the flexibility to get wide, open up
your hips and sit down. I suggested this to Monta and our other
guards. It’s about flexibility, focus and stretching.”
Smart cautions that learning this kind of positioning is hard, and not
everyone can do it — especially if players haven’t been coached well
and forced to perform proper flexibility exercises, something the
former coach says he wanted Golden State’s trainers to learn more
about.
“I would say to Monta, ‘Keep your arms out wide, sit in that saddle,’
” Smart said. “But that fatigues your gluts and your hamstrings, and
that forces you to stand up.”
Smart, by the way, thinks Ellis is a heady, hard-working defender who
has gotten better and generally followed the coaching staff’s
instructions. And he was quite successful on pick-and-rolls; opponents
averaged just 0.74 points per possession when the ball-handler on a
pick-and-roll, guarded by Ellis, finished the play with a shot, drawn
foul or turnover, according to Synergy Sports. That put Ellis 42nd in
the league among all defenders — an elite ranking.
Smart said Ellis chased the best shooters over picks and tried his
best to only go under screens when coaches instructed him to do so,
often against so-so shooters. The lack of a shutdown interior defender
also hurt because Ellis, like any guard, would fall behind ball-
handlers while chasing them over a pick. At that point, it’s the big
man’s job to contain penetration, and the Warriors’ big men outside of
Ekpe Udoh weren’t much good at that.
But even on pick-and-rolls, Ellis has some habits you rarely see from
great defenders. When he goes under a screen, he has a weird tendency
to spin off the screener, so that his back is turned to the ball-
handler before Ellis meets him on the other side of the pick. The
habit leaves Ellis vulnerable to change-of-direction moves because
he’s blinding himself to the ball for a second or two. Smart says
Ellis claims to have learned the technique from watching Isiah Thomas
(on tape) and Derek Fisher, Ellis’ teammate in Golden State in
2005-06.
Then there’s the gambling. Ellis is a serial gambler, and he often
kills Golden State’s defense by pursuing steals when he’d be better
off holding his ground. Some of this was by design, Smart said. The
Warriors understood they were a shaky defensive team with rebounding
issues, and so Smart considered turnovers a weapon they could use to
tilt the balance back their way a bit. He told his guards not to
gamble for steals at the top of the key or near the foul line because
a bad bet there could allow an opponent to slice into the heart of the
defense. He preferred gambling on the wings and baseline, where it is
easier for help defenders to get in position.
“He was 50/50 in terms of doing the right thing,” Smart said of Ellis’
gambling. “It was something that was just so much a part of him, and
he does come up with a lot of steals.”
Still, Ellis is too aggressive a gambler and does things that would be
unacceptable in Boston, Chicago and other defense-first places. The
league knows this, too, as Kobe, Quincy Pondexter, Joe Johnson, Jason
Richardson, Grant Hill and others all pulled the same move on Ellis
last season. Each player got the ball at the right elbow, dribbled
hard to the right, waited for Ellis to reach that way and then spun
back to the left for either an open jumper or uncontested drive. Some
of these guys worked this move multiple times in the same game, and
each time, Ellis would reach his way out of position, ending up near
the top of the arc while his guy scored, drove or dished for an easy
basket.
Part of his tendency to gamble in these situations might be linked to
the size disadvantage Ellis faces against shooting guards. It’s a
problem NBA people consider his biggest shortcoming as a player — the
dreaded “tweener” status. He understands that if those players back
him down, he will be in trouble.
Ellis’ height won’t change, but any team interested in dealing for him
ask to itself whether his defensive habits might.
Greg Lentz
wrote:
>I've never seen a better analysis of what's wrong with Ellis' defense.
>Really opened my eyes. I thought he was an OK defender, it was just
>that he didn't have the energy to go all out against those larger guys
>all the time and still play 10,000 minutes a game. Lowe includes that
>as an argument, but it goes well beyond that. -AL
I can't wait for Peter L's rebuttal.
--
Greg Lentz
Phantom Post
8d886a...@h38g2000pro.googlegroups.com:
> "You have to sit down in a saddle, really bend down and slide," Smart
> said. "And that comes with having the flexibility to get wide, open up
> your hips and sit down. I suggested this to Monta and our other
> guards. It's about flexibility, focus and stretching."
>
Reading this description reminded me so much of Mike Dunleavy Jr. and,
straight from this season's playoffs, Carlos Boozer. They stand around out
there in the middle of everything in this proper, coached position while
all sorts of people are running past, around, and behind them and putting
the ball in the hole. (^;
--
Pat
email: valid would be net
Peter Lawrence
> On Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:43:23 -0700 (PDT), Allen<lonewo...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> I've never seen a better analysis of what's wrong with Ellis' defense.
>> Really opened my eyes. I thought he was an OK defender, it was just
>> that he didn't have the energy to go all out against those larger guys
>> all the time and still play 10,000 minutes a game. Lowe includes that
>> as an argument, but it goes well beyond that. -AL
>
> I can't wait for Peter L's rebuttal.
There's not much to rebut. But my main point still stands. Most of Ellis'
deficiencies on defense, as noted in this article, are correctable though
proper coaching and training. The only one that Monta can't correct is his
lack of height.
Curry's has two deficiencies in regards to defense that he won't ever be
able to correct: his lack of height *and* his lack of athleticism.
- Peter
Greg Lentz
wrote:
If Curry's height is an issue, how is that not an issue for Ellis? They're
the same height.
--
Greg Lentz
Peter Lawrence
Please reread my initial post on this thread, again. (Hint: I had already
noted that (last sentence of my first paragraph))
- Peter
Phantom Post
> Curry's has two deficiencies in regards to defense that he won't ever be
> able to correct: his lack of height *and* his lack of athleticism.
>
I don't think there's too many players in the NBA that can use the excuse
of "lack of athleticism" for anything. If Curry is athletic enough to be
a starting guard and an admired shooter in the league he's atheletic enough
to play defense. Not saying he's going to be a lock down defensive stopper
but he should be able to play adequate man on man D - at least enough to
make his guy work a little bit.
Curry seems to go way up and way down with his energy/confidence level
during games. At times he looks like he wants to sit down and cry and not
do anything. Other times the opposite. I'm hoping Coach MJ will teach
theses guys proper defense and that when their offesive game is lacking a
bit to put the effort in on the defensive end and that will get the offense
going.
Greg Lentz
wrote:
Curry will always be playing the small guard offensively, so height really
isn't an issue for him defensively. For a small guard, he is average or
slightly above average in height. If the Warriors draft a two guard and
trade Ellis, Curry will play PG and they'll function just fine offensively
and defend however well the new guy allows them to. If you trade Curry
and keep Ellis, you have to get a guy who is capable of making all the
point guard plays that Ellis doesn't make and hopefully upgrades your 2
guard defense.
Either way, Monta still has zero defensive edge on Curry while making it
harder to find someone to fit offensively because Ellis doesn't even
pretend to try to play point guard.
--
Greg Lentz
Greg Lentz
<pha...@cox.invalid> wrote:
>Peter Lawrence <humm...@aol.com> wrote in news:iu0a3n$3ct$1...@dont-email.me:
>
>> Curry's has two deficiencies in regards to defense that he won't ever be
>> able to correct: his lack of height *and* his lack of athleticism.
>>
>
>I don't think there's too many players in the NBA that can use the excuse
>of "lack of athleticism" for anything.
Like anything else, even a group of elite athletes are going to have guys
who are above the average and those who are below. Curry is solidly below
average as a leaper, probably average at best in terms of up and down the
court speed, and below average in strength. Monta is elite quick,
probably at least above average at leaping, and below average in strength.
>If Curry is athletic enough to be
>a starting guard and an admired shooter in the league he's atheletic enough
>to play defense.
Defense is much more about willingness than athleticism anyway. Was Bruce
Bowen an elite athlete?
>Not saying he's going to be a lock down defensive stopper
>but he should be able to play adequate man on man D - at least enough to
>make his guy work a little bit.
He would have to apply himself at it and neither Ellis nor Curry have done
that.
--
Greg Lentz
Peter Lawrence
>
> Curry will always be playing the small guard offensively, so height really
> isn't an issue for him defensively.
Height will always be a issue with him. Not only he is on the small size,
but he doesn't have great wingspan either. But to fair, height will always
be an issue with Ellis too.
> For a small guard, he is average or slightly above average in height.
I don't think so. He is at best average, but more likely slightly below
average for a starting PG in the NBA.
> If the Warriors draft a two guard and
> trade Ellis, Curry will play PG and they'll function just fine offensively
> and defend however well the new guy allows them to. If you trade Curry
> and keep Ellis, you have to get a guy who is capable of making all the
> point guard plays that Ellis doesn't make and hopefully upgrades your 2
> guard defense.
If the Warriors keep Ellis and trade Curry then they need to acquire a big
PG. But that PG doesn't have to be a scorer -- just a good ball distributor
and a good defender.
> Either way, Monta still has zero defensive edge on Curry while making it
> harder to find someone to fit offensively because Ellis doesn't even
> pretend to try to play point guard.
I've seen enough of both players to know that Ellis does have an edge over
Curry in regards to defense. I'm not saying that Monta is a good defender,
or might ever will be. But what I am saying that he is a better defender
than Curry, and probably will continue to be. To me it's pretty obvious
watching both of them play the game.
And regards to Monta Ellis being a PG, I hope the Warriors canned that
experiment. Ellis isn't a point guard and never will be.
But Curry isn't a true point guard either. In a perfect world, Curry is a
combo guard sixth-man coming off the bench to spell the starting PG or SG of
a playoff caliber team.
- Peter
Greg Lentz
wrote:
>On 6/23/11 3:58 PM, Greg Lentz wrote:
>>
>> Curry will always be playing the small guard offensively, so height really
>> isn't an issue for him defensively.
>
>Height will always be a issue with him. Not only he is on the small size,
>but he doesn't have great wingspan either. But to fair, height will always
>be an issue with Ellis too.
>
>> For a small guard, he is average or slightly above average in height.
>
>I don't think so. He is at best average, but more likely slightly below
>average for a starting PG in the NBA.
>
>> If the Warriors draft a two guard and
>> trade Ellis, Curry will play PG and they'll function just fine offensively
>> and defend however well the new guy allows them to. If you trade Curry
>> and keep Ellis, you have to get a guy who is capable of making all the
>> point guard plays that Ellis doesn't make and hopefully upgrades your 2
>> guard defense.
>
>If the Warriors keep Ellis and trade Curry then they need to acquire a big
>PG.
Good thing there are so many of them around.
>> Either way, Monta still has zero defensive edge on Curry while making it
>> harder to find someone to fit offensively because Ellis doesn't even
>> pretend to try to play point guard.
>
>I've seen enough of both players to know that Ellis does have an edge over
>Curry in regards to defense.
Unfortunately, other people measure this by how well guys *actually*
defend as opposed to how they think they *could* defend.
>But Curry isn't a true point guard either.
No, but he's a lot closer to one. He at least has the vision to pass and
the desire to do it.
>In a perfect world, Curry is a
>combo guard sixth-man coming off the bench to spell the starting PG or SG of
>a playoff caliber team.
Funny. That's what I would say about Monta Ellis. A sixth man paid to be
a starter.
--
Greg Lentz