Greg Maddux
slatconsulting
From a blog:
`
So, is Greg Maddux the best pitcher of all time?
The release of former Senator George Mitchell's report on baseball players
using steroids and/or human growth hormone names lots of names, most of
them obscure, but some of them famous, most notably Roger Clemens, who
probably has the best pitching statistics of all time. Of course, they're
also kind of silly looking statistics, with three separate peaks in his
career: age 23-28, when he won three Cy Young Awards as the best pitcher in
the league, 34-38 when he won 3 more, and 41-42 when he won one and was
even better the second year with a 1.87 ERA. He pitched for the Yankees
last year age 44. You might think that a sure Hall of Famer like Clemens
wouldn't keep coming back with the risk of steroid exposure over his head,
but Clemens was never really into this whole growing old gracefully thing.
In contrast, unimposing-looking Greg Maddux, who is second among active
pitchers with 347 wins to Clemens's 354, is not named in the report, and he
has grown old gracefully. His peak was age 26-29, when he won four straight
Cy Young Awards. He remains a quite productive major league starter, but in
his last five seasons, from age 37 through 41, his ERA has ranged from 3.96
to 4.24, just slightly better than the league average over that time.
While Clemens puts himself through a famously rigorous weightlifting
regimen during the off-season, Maddux spends six days a week on the golf
course.
Of course, not all the juicers are named in this report -- it's mostly just
people who got squealed on by a handful of connections, like a New York
clubhouse attendant who sold drugs.
The Cat
>
> From a blog:
> `
>
> So, is Greg Maddux the best pitcher of all time?
>
No, but it doesn't mean he's not a great, and a 1st ballot HoFer.
For me, it would have been more impressive if he did what he did in the AL.
--
The Cat
jwra...@gmail.com
He's one of the greatest, but not in the Koufax/Pedro (peak) level or
the Seaver/Gibson et al. power pitcher elite. I'd say he's in the top
15 pitchers. I agree about the AL though. Although the AL wasn't so
much better for much of Maddux's career.
The Cat
That's not what Baseball Reference shows.
--
The Cat
Vinnie S.
>
>From a blog:
>`
>
>So, is Greg Maddux the best pitcher of all time?
No chance.
Vinnie S.
The old geezer
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Lefty Grove
Carl Hubbel
Cy Young
Etc. Etc. Etc.....
Jimbo Jones
No Randy Johnson is. He killed a bird.
END OF THREAD.
Vinnie S.
>Walter Johnson
>Christy Mathewson
>Lefty Grove
>Carl Hubbel
>Cy Young
>
>Etc. Etc. Etc.....
Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez.
Vinnie S.
D C
> No Randy Johnson is. He killed a bird.
So did Dave Winfield.
Pepe Papon
McDuck
wrote:
>
Greg Maddux is very good, significantly better, I'd say, than Koufax,
for example.
He should be on everyone's top 10 list and has an argument for a top 5
list. Looking only post 1900 stuff b/c I have no idea about stuff
before then, I'd say the only once clearrly better would be:
Lefty Grove
Walter Johnson
Pedro Martinez
Christy Mathewson
I'd also put Randy Johnson ahead of him, and Bob Gibson too close to
call. Depends how much we focus on career and peak, of course, and I
was looking for some balance. Maddux is not high on K/9 inning (not in
top 20), and that has to drop him some. That 4-year CY streak is
amazing. Here are a few "leader" stats for Maddux:
ERA
1992 NL 3RD 2.18
1993 NL 1ST 2.36
1994 NL 1ST 1.56
1995 NL 1ST 1.63
1996 NL 2ND 2.72
1997 NL 2ND 2.20
1998 NL 1ST 2.22
1999 NL 8TH 3.57
2000 NL 4TH 3.00
2001 NL 4TH 3.05
2002 NL 2ND 2.62
HITS/9 IP
1992 NL 2ND 6.75
1993 NL 5TH 7.69
1994 NL 1ST 6.68
1995 NL 2ND 6.31
1997 NL 9TH 7.74
1998 NL 3RD 7.21
2000 NL 9TH 8.12
BASERUNNERS/9 IP
1991 NL 6TH 10.40
1992 NL 3RD 9.57
1993 NL 1ST 9.64
1994 NL 1ST 8.33
1995 NL 1ST 7.47
1996 NL 3RD 9.40
1997 NL 2ND 8.74
1998 NL 1ST 9.07
2000 NL 2ND 10.00
2001 NL 3RD 9.81
2002 NL 8TH 10.97
2003 NL 7TH 10.96
2004 NL 9TH 11.00
2006 NL 6TH 10.97
2007 NL 10TH 11.45
STRIKEOUTS/9 IP
1991 NL 6TH 6.78
1992 NL 8TH 6.68
1995 NL 7TH 7.77
WALKS/9 IP
1991 NL 9TH 2.26
1993 NL 5TH 1.75
1994 NL 3RD 1.38
1995 NL 1ST .99
1996 NL 1ST 1.03
1997 NL 1ST .77
1998 NL 4TH 1.61
1999 NL 2ND 1.52
2000 NL 1ST 1.52
2001 NL 1ST 1.04
2002 NL 4TH 2.03
2003 NL 1ST 1.36
2004 NL 3RD 1.40
2005 NL 1ST 1.44
2006 NL 3RD 1.59
2007 NL 1ST 1.14
STRIKEOUTS/WALKS
1991 NL 4TH 3.00
1992 NL 7TH 2.84
1993 NL 2ND 3.79
1994 NL 3RD 5.03
1995 NL 1ST 7.87
1996 NL 1ST 6.14
1997 NL 1ST 8.85
1998 NL 5TH 4.53
1999 NL 7TH 3.68
2000 NL 3RD 4.52
2001 NL 2ND 6.41
2003 NL 5TH 3.76
2004 NL 4TH 4.58
2005 NL 7TH 3.78
2006 NL 10TH 3.16
2007 NL 3RD 4.16
WINNING PERCENTAGE
1988 NL 6TH .692
1989 NL 10TH .613
1992 NL 7TH .645
1993 NL 8TH .667
1994 NL T3RD .727
1995 NL 1ST .905
1997 NL 1ST .826
1998 NL T10TH .667
1999 NL 5TH .679
2000 NL 8TH .679
2002 NL T4TH .727
STRIKEOUTS
1991 NL 2ND 198
1992 NL 3RD 199
1993 NL 3RD 197
1994 NL 3RD 156
1995 NL 3RD 181
1997 NL 9TH 177
1998 NL 5TH 204
Here is the list for Bob Gibson
ERA
1961 NL 5TH 3.24
1962 NL 5TH 2.85
1966 NL 5TH 2.44
1968 NL 1ST 1.12
1969 NL 3RD 2.18
1970 NL 4TH 3.12
1972 NL 5TH 2.46
1973 NL 6TH 2.77
HITS/9 IP
1961 NL 4TH 7.93
1962 NL 2ND 6.69
1964 NL 9TH 7.84
1965 NL 5TH 7.31
1966 NL 3RD 6.75
1968 NL 1ST 5.84
1969 NL 7TH 7.19
1970 NL 7TH 8.02
1972 NL 3RD 7.32
1973 NL 8TH 7.34
BASERUNNERS/9 IP
1962 NL 7TH 10.73
1966 NL 3RD 9.42
1967 NL 7TH 9.98
1968 NL 1ST 7.88
1969 NL 7TH 10.20
1970 NL 5TH 10.84
1972 NL 8TH 10.26
1973 NL 4TH 10.11
STRIKEOUTS/9 IP
1961 NL 3RD 7.08
1962 NL 3RD 8.00
1963 NL 6TH 7.20
1964 NL 4TH 7.68
1965 NL 5TH 8.13
1966 NL 7TH 7.23
1967 NL 5TH 7.56
1968 NL 2ND 7.91
1969 NL 8TH 7.71
1970 NL 2ND 8.39
1971 NL 6TH 6.77
1972 NL 8TH 6.73
1973 NL 9TH 6.55
WALKS/9 IP
1967 NL 10TH 2.06
1968 NL 8TH 1.83
STRIKEOUTS/WALKS
1964 NL 10TH 2.85
1967 NL 2ND 3.67
1968 NL 2ND 4.32
1969 NL 7TH 2.83
1970 NL 3RD 3.11
1973 NL 5TH 2.49
WINNING PERCENTAGE
1963 NL 7TH .667
1964 NL 10TH .613
1966 NL T6TH .636
1967 NL 5TH .650
1968 NL 3RD .710
1970 NL 2ND .767
STRIKEOUTS
1961 NL 5TH 166
1962 NL 3RD 208
1963 NL 5TH 204
1964 NL 2ND 245
1965 NL 3RD 270
1966 NL 4TH 225
1968 NL 1ST 268
1969 NL 2ND 269
1970 NL T2ND 274
1971 NL 6TH 185
1972 NL 3RD 208
jwra...@gmail.com
Which part is not what Baseball Reference shows? About the AL?
The Cat
Correct.
--
The Cat
Vinnie S.
>>>Walter Johnson
>>>Christy Mathewson
>>>Lefty Grove
>>>Carl Hubbel
>>>Cy Young
>>>
>>>Etc. Etc. Etc.....
>>
>>
>>Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez.
>>
>>Vinnie S.
>
>Greg Maddux is very good, significantly better, I'd say, than Koufax,
>for example.
Lond term, yeah. And he had dominant years in the 1990's. The problem was he
wasn't dominant in post season. He was pretty damn good, but he wasn't dominant,
and his teams failed often. And I think that hurts him.
>He should be on everyone's top 10 list and has an argument for a top 5
>list. Looking only post 1900 stuff b/c I have no idea about stuff
>before then, I'd say the only once clearrly better would be:
>
>Lefty Grove
>Walter Johnson
>Pedro Martinez
>Christy Mathewson
Here is the problem I have with him. He was notoriously known for pulling
himself out of games, with low pitch counts in the 7th or 8th innings. The mets
announcers always would question why he did this. Ed Coleman once said, "I have
no idea why he does it, but he does it all the time". I am not going to put a
guy like that into that group.
>I'd also put Randy Johnson ahead of him, and Bob Gibson too close to
>call. Depends how much we focus on career and peak, of course, and I
>was looking for some balance. Maddux is not high on K/9 inning (not in
>top 20), and that has to drop him some. That 4-year CY streak is
>amazing. Here are a few "leader" stats for Maddux:
RJ is a no brainer, and spent most his career in the AL.
Vinnie S.
McDuck
wrote:
>
>>>>Walter Johnson
>>>>Christy Mathewson
>>>>Lefty Grove
>>>>Carl Hubbel
>>>>Cy Young
>>>>
>>>>Etc. Etc. Etc.....
>>>
>>>
>>>Bob Gibson, Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez.
>>>
>>>Vinnie S.
>>
>>Greg Maddux is very good, significantly better, I'd say, than Koufax,
>>for example.
>
>Lond term, yeah. And he had dominant years in the 1990's. The problem was he
>wasn't dominant in post season. He was pretty damn good, but he wasn't dominant,
>and his teams failed often. And I think that hurts him.
Good point. I was only looking at season stats. By the same logic,
Christy Mathewson and Koufax ought to ge a few extra points for their
post-season greatness.
>
>>He should be on everyone's top 10 list and has an argument for a top 5
>>list. Looking only post 1900 stuff b/c I have no idea about stuff
>>before then, I'd say the only once clearrly better would be:
>>
>>Lefty Grove
>>Walter Johnson
>>Pedro Martinez
>>Christy Mathewson
>
>Here is the problem I have with him. He was notoriously known for pulling
>himself out of games, with low pitch counts in the 7th or 8th innings. The mets
>announcers always would question why he did this. Ed Coleman once said, "I have
>no idea why he does it, but he does it all the time". I am not going to put a
>guy like that into that group.
I don't know about it, or know why he would do it. Hard to figure into
comparisons. RS fans felt Roger pulled himself a couple of times. No
one ever thought that of Gibson or Pedro <g>.
>
>>I'd also put Randy Johnson ahead of him, and Bob Gibson too close to
>>call. Depends how much we focus on career and peak, of course, and I
>>was looking for some balance. Maddux is not high on K/9 inning (not in
>>top 20), and that has to drop him some. That 4-year CY streak is
>>amazing. Here are a few "leader" stats for Maddux:
>
>RJ is a no brainer, and spent most his career in the AL.
>
True.
Vinnie S.
>>Here is the problem I have with him. He was notoriously known for pulling
>>himself out of games, with low pitch counts in the 7th or 8th innings. The mets
>>announcers always would question why he did this. Ed Coleman once said, "I have
>>no idea why he does it, but he does it all the time". I am not going to put a
>>guy like that into that group.
>
>I don't know about it, or know why he would do it. Hard to figure into
>comparisons. RS fans felt Roger pulled himself a couple of times. No
>one ever thought that of Gibson or Pedro <g>.
I can't exlain this, and the only time I ever listen to the Mets was when I was
driving, and the Yankees were off. However, this was brought up numerous times,
by Maddog and Coleman. Maddog obviously is a NL fan and knows more about the NL
than I do, and Coleman is a Mets beat reporter and radio announcer. This is
definitely a strike against him.
>>>I'd also put Randy Johnson ahead of him, and Bob Gibson too close to
>>>call. Depends how much we focus on career and peak, of course, and I
>>>was looking for some balance. Maddux is not high on K/9 inning (not in
>>>top 20), and that has to drop him some. That 4-year CY streak is
>>>amazing. Here are a few "leader" stats for Maddux:
>>
>>RJ is a no brainer, and spent most his career in the AL.
>>
>True.
Vinnie S.
Erasmus "The Mannequin" Brown
"Vinnie S." <no...@coldmail.com> wrote in message
news:pik8m3ptlebqqu5h6...@4ax.com...
Even if you're going to exclude Clemens, Walter Johnson and Lefty Grove are
still ahead.