Is there any free agent who is not Latin that Minaya wants?
je
getting ridiculous.....
Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
"je" <ift...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:qO22j.94$u23...@newsfe09.lga...
>I really dont care about the ethnic makeup of the team, but this seems to
>be getting ridiculous.....
>
Contradict yourself much?
Yabahoobs
While it's true 'je' contradicted himself, Minaya genuinly seems
uninterested in anything not Latino. He must've been on a 2-day booze
bender when he signed Sean Greene.
Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
"Yabahoobs" <chend...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:9bc24731-bee4-4685...@i12g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
And Poll Laduca.
Pasta
neither...
I have to agree with je. I've been a Mets fan since I saw them win in '69
and have to say, I've never seen such blatant racism in baseball in the last
forty years.
I remember back in the early and mid 80s when the Mets were getting a bit
"white" under Frank Cashen's rule. Personally, I did not like that, but
compared to what Omar Minaya is doing today, that was nothing! Minaya is
simply looking for the best Latin players available, not the best players
available.
I don't care what the racial, ethnic or religious make up of the players on
the Mets team is - I just hope to see them play well on the diamond and hope
they get along off the field well enough to promote good overall team
chemistry. I've become very disenchanted with Minaya.
I also believe that between Omar and Tony Bernazard trying to help/protect
the Hispanic players (Minaya being in the clubhouse so much & Bernazard
giving the Latin players his personal phone number), that much of Willie
Randolph's authority has been eroded. If Willie tries to discipline a Met
player who happens to be Hispanic and that player contacts Minaya or
Bernazard directly to whine and complain, what true power as an on-field
manager does Randolph really have?
As an example of Omar Minaya's skewed vision concerning player transactions,
here is one of the moves I was praying Minaya would make before the trade
deadline last year:
Trade for Mark Teixeira, thereby upgrading the offense and defense at first
base and trade Carlos Delgado to an American League team (plus pick up part
of his salary for '07 & maybe some of '08). This would have cost the Mets in
prospects and been a near wash financially over the long haul, but would
have solidified first base for nearly the next decade. I like Carlos Delgado
as a person and baseball player, but his best days are too far behind him.
Instead, the Braves now have Teixeira and he will certainly help them
against the NYM for years to come.
***** Point is - Omar Minaya would NEVER CONSIDER this move since Delgado is
from Puerto Rico and Mark Teixeira is white and from Annapolis, MD. Whether
this specific move was realistic or not is irrelevant. Minaya simply WOULD
NOT CONSIDER the first base change based solely on race. That IS racism.
"Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bj...@bellsouth.net> wrote
in message news:13khp0r...@corp.supernews.com...
Franke Carlino
>I really dont care about the ethnic makeup of the team, but this seems to be
>getting ridiculous.....
Then the first part of your sentence is purely bullshit
______________________________________________________
Peace,
Franke Carlino
LETS GO METS!!!
Robert
people question why the abundance of Hispanics on the Mets? The roar of
outrage over the lack of caucasions in the NBA and NFL is non-existent.
Why was it "great for the community" (Washington Heights) in 1998 when Sosa
was hitting all the home runs. Young Dominican kids saying how they had
someone they can relate to. Yet if I said I'd rather see McGwire break the
record because he is white and I can relate to that, I'd be blasted as a
racist and bigot.
I had the Saturday plan this past year and can say without question that
most fans we heard were a bit put off by the incessant shoving down our
throats of the Latin atmosphere Shea tried to convey.
I know, I'm a racist. Just because I enjoy things in the "white culture"
more than in other cultures.
PS: Who won the Miss White USA pageant this year?
"Pasta" <past...@nycap.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4749471b$0$16523$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
je
"Franke Carlino" <Vintag...@sw.rr.com> wrote in message
news:ms2jk3higfu7ehm8h...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 24 Nov 2007 18:53:14 -0500, "je" <ift...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>>I really dont care about the ethnic makeup of the team, but this seems to
>>be
>>getting ridiculous.....
>
> Then the first part of your sentence is purely bullshit
no, its not. If the team was 80% white I would say the same thing. So would
all the media. When its Latin, no one says a word. Everyone knows this is
true.
Like I said, I dont care about the ethnic makeup of the team, as long as we
win. We aint winning. Lat year's collapse was a disgrace.
Mary1973
does not even realize that he favors Hispanics.
Wretch
> Why is it OK to bemoan the lack of black players in MLB but wrong when
> people question why the abundance of Hispanics on the Mets? The roar of
> outrage over the lack of caucasions in the NBA and NFL is non-existent.
Because whitey is perceived to be in a position of power. Never mind
that YOU may not necessarily be spending all your waking moments
scheming up nefarious techniques for oppressing blacks and latinos,
and never mind that you may not have been born with a silver spoon and
actually have had to work for a living. No, that doesn't matter,
cracker. You're just a lil' ol' white devil, even if you don't know
it. You can't see your own racism because you're incapable of seeing
through the institutionalized racism in which you were reared and
educated.
If you're confused as to how these other people know you so much
better than you know yourself...well, that's just tough. Just give a
ring to Sharpton, Gary Sheffield, or Ozzie Guillen, and I'm sure
they'd be happy to tell you all about the racism swirling around your
dumb white ass.
W
Wretch
> I'd love one of the commentators to flat out ask Omar about this. Maybe he
> does not even realize that he favors Hispanics.
Yeah right. If that's true then the Muts are in big trouble having
somebody that dense and imperceptive running their team.
W
Whistler
>be getting ridiculous.....
Wasn't this supposed to be the point of hiring Minaya in
the first place, to entice more Latinos onto the team?...
Phil
> I'd love one of the commentators to flat out ask Omar about this. Maybe he
> does not even realize that he favors Hispanics.
I'm glad you're happy, then, because Omar's been asked about this
countless times, and responded the same way each time. Essentially he
says he does not favor Latinos, but that the current demographics among
the MLB talent pool is such that many of them _are_ Latinos, so
statistically a lot of the players the team will go after, and acquire,
will be Latinos, and he's even admitted that if he can use the fact
that he's also Latino to his advantage, he will cheerfully do so.
However, he also maintains he doesn't go after players because they're
Latino; he says he goes after good players he thinks he can get, and
who he thinks will get on well in the clubhouse.
Of course, if people insist on levelling this charge against him no
matter how little conclusive proof there is for it, there'll always be
some people who'll believe it, especially since we now live in a world
where rhetoric, no matter how false, can be repeated until people
believe it.
There are also people who are offended, for whatever reason, at the
current MLB ethnic breakdown, but who are quick to point out they don't
care about it as long as the team wins. And now, of course, in the late
season and off-season they weren't winning, but many of the same people
made the same complaints when the Mets were in first place.
Wretch
<siempredelira...@googlelaw.net> wrote:
> Now how about going away for another couple of months, so that we can
> all not miss you all over again?
Awww...you're trying to tell me that absence makes the heart grow
fonder? I'm flattered. I didn't even get you anything for your
birthday.
W
Wretch
> However, he also maintains he doesn't go after players because they're
> Latino; he says he goes after good players he thinks he can get, and
> who he thinks will get on well in the clubhouse.
aka "latinos." Racially prejudiced people always use excuses of this
sort.
W
Phil
Which sucks for the people who are actually telling the truth and
basing their decisions on the stated criteria. It's sort of like the
difficulty you must have with people thinking you're a troll simply
because you never post anything here but needlessly inflammatory
content. People might easily think that, if they based their evaluation
of conditions purely on, well, conditions, such as posting trolling
content, knowing you're doing it, knowing the effect it'll have, and
not caring. Yes, I can easily see people might think you're a troll.
What a shame for you.
Phil
It's the thought that counts, and your lovely absence as you cringed
under the bed for a month after the Yankees' ignominious, tearful
collapse to a handful of non-biting gnats was more thoughtful than any
necktie. Unless you were planning to hang yourself with one, of
course...
Mary1973
"Phil" <ph...@nomail.com> wrote in message
news:2007112520274816807-phil@nomailcom...
> On 2007-11-25 16:09:45 -0500, "Mary1973" <MLA...@nj.rr.com> said:
>
>> I'd love one of the commentators to flat out ask Omar about this. Maybe
>> he
>> does not even realize that he favors Hispanics.
>
> I'm glad you're happy, then, because Omar's been asked about this
> countless times, and responded the same way each time. Essentially he says
> he does not favor Latinos, but that the current demographics among the MLB
> talent pool is such that many of them _are_ Latinos,
Oh, thanks, I didn't know he had been asked this.
Phil
Yeah, he has. He's made a very, very good case against this line of
thinking, and the standard response from some here has been wait a
couple weeks, and raise the subject again as if it hasn't already been
beaten to death.
Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
"Wretch" <wre...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:31836695-ea75-4ad0...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
How about worrying about your own circus of a team that just blew $400
million to put the same crap as last year?
DebArchery
> I really dont care about the ethnic makeup of the team, but this seems to be
> getting ridiculous.....
Actually it isn't just with the Mets. Look at the Angels. Similar
situation. The world has changed quite a bit in the last 50 years
with regard to who goes into this particular sport and it being a meal
ticket for a particular ethnic group. Just look at the way basketball
changed from the late 50s through the 70s. Which ethnic/racial group
dominates?
Phil
Edition ®" <bj...@bellsouth.net> said:
Not the same crap as last year. They're trying to trade a boatload of
young talent for pitching. Things _could_ get much worse.
Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
"DebArchery" <C.Tend...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3545e512-1f1f-403a...@e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 24, 6:53?pm, "je" <ift...@optonline.net> wrote:
> I really dont care about the ethnic makeup of the team, but this seems to
> be
> getting ridiculous.....
>Actually it isn't just with the Mets. Look at the Angels. Similar
>situation. The world has changed quite a bit in the last 50 years
>
The way racist trolls think will never change. That's why they are
racists - their small stuffy minds will never evolve. No worries, though.
Sir Darwin usually takes care of them.
Jesse
> I have to agree with je. I've been a Mets fan since I saw them win in '69
> and have to say, I've never seen such blatant racism in baseball in the last
> forty years.
True but...
If you complain about it YOU get labeled racist.
Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®
"Jesse" <jess2251...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%UZ2j.17263$ht1.16250@trndny01...
Because there IS veiled racism in complaining about a team's ethnic makeup.
DUH.
Pasta
facts, as an observer, does not make that observer anything other than a
person who is viewing the reality of that situation.
Here are two situations that disprove what you wrote.
(1) If the Mets team were composed of 100% white players, would you say
there is racism in the make-up of the team? If you say yes, then by your own
definition, you would be a racist.
(2) To step away from race, religion and ethnic issues for a minute, here is
a silly but simple example of observation not incriminating the viewer....
If the Mets gave every one of their forty-two 2007 amateur draft picks a
5-year $20 million MBL contract, would you not be able to say with some
degree of certainty (just as an observer) that this action by the
owner/GM/Mets Execs is foolhardy (at best!). You would just be drawing a
sensible conclusion from the existing facts. That is all.
Minaya's actions during his tenure have fairly clearly defined him as a
racist. This does not mean that he will continue this trend, but based on
the facts, he has been acquiring players (for the major league team) as
someone who clearly favors Hispanic players.
"Bellsouth Ijit 2.0 - Global Warming Edition ®" <bj...@bellsouth.net> wrote
in message news:13kot31...@corp.supernews.com...
Phil
Edition ®" <bj...@bellsouth.net> said:
Well, there certainly could be. If you look at the Mets and the first
and only thing you see to complain about is the ethnic balance of the
team, you're probably worried about the wrong things. If you come here
and raise this issue again and again and again without any real proof
other than circumstantial evidence and insinuation, looking to sway the
gullible, you most definitely are. And if you're basically obsessed
with the wrong thing, and that thing is race, what does that make you?
Phil
<siempred...@googlelaw.net> said:
> [Default] On Wed, 28 Nov 2007 00:24:23 -0500, "Pasta"
> <past...@nycap.rr.com> escribió:
>
>> Minaya's actions during his tenure have fairly clearly defined him as a
>> racist. This does not mean that he will continue this trend, but based on
>> the facts, he has been acquiring players (for the major league team) as
>> someone who clearly favors Hispanic players.
>
> "Omar has been acquiring Hispanic players because he's a racist.
> The evidence of his racism: he's been acquiring Hispanic players."
>
> This is what's known as circular reasoning. You're not drawing a
> conclusion here; you're merely assuming a motive, and tailoring your
> conclusions to your assumption. As argumentation, it sucks.
Well, then there's the fact that motives are being assigned to actions
unknown, or incompletely known, based on whatever data the media (who
often has its own ax to grind) sees fit to give us. Really, the most we
can say is that we can't completely rule out the possibility that Omar
is stacking the ethnic deck of this team, but anybody who says he or
she knows this to be true is delusional, an idiot, or lying.
"The facts" are that there are a lot of Latinos on the Mets. We can't
really know for sure what alternatives were really available in each
and every case.
Pasta
Firstly, what you wrote was circular logic. Problem is I did not write that.
You changed what I wrote.
Secondly, the only reason we are even discussing this issue is because many
Mets fans "noticed" Minaya's attempt to fill the ML roster with Hispanic
players is:
(1) A consistent behavior, and
(2) Most notably is out of the statistical norm of behavior for the
"average" GM.
Point two is why any fan would even notice the trend in the first place.
Most of us are real Mets fans who follow transaction and see the player our
team does and DOES NOT acquire. In many cases, when Minaya has made deals,
it seems that there were other players to be had that might have been a
better fit, less expensive in dollars or young talent traded and even the
number of years to which various players are signed.
Is it possible that in each case the real issue is some information to which
we fans are not privy? Sure, it is possible. But again, it boils down to
statistical abnormalities over a period of time that forms a fairly clear
trend.
Here is an example that can easily be defended when someone who is less
objective will claim racism. When the Mets resigned Luis Castillo for 4
years at $25 million, I wasn't thrilled. Not because he is Hispanic, but
because of his health condition, number of years playing MLB and his clear
loss of speed. BUT, after I looked at what else is available (again as far
as average fan can see...) there really wasn't a better alternative out
there. So from what I can see, the signing made sense. I just hope his knees
hold out!
Another example was when Minaya was first hired as GM. He went after Pedro
Martinez, Carlos Delgado and Carlos Beltran. That was clearly because those
three guys were the best three players available for the Mets needs that
off-season! No racism involved. I just wish we had gotten Delgado too so we
wouldn't have had to trade for him the following season - not to mention
that he seems to have had his last, best year in Florida.
Anyway, back to Earth.... a consistent statistical deviation from the norm
is what makes many people (including myself) believe that Minaya is a
racist.
POINT TO PHIL - you are correct in asserting that we cannot know for sure
Minaya is doing all of this to stack the ethnic deck of the Mets. Nobody
knows for sure what he is thinking in his own mind. I am just agreeing with
many fans that see the same trend Minaya has taken since day one in favor of
Hispanic players.
After all, I don't think George Bush ever stated as fact that his primary
objective for his Presidency was to drain the middle class of its
accumulated wealth and redistribute it up to the wealthiest 1% of Americans,
but I believe (or at least hope) most intelligent Americans can see that for
themselves by now.
Phil
Okay. Please indicate what and where.
> Problem is I did not write that.
> You changed what I wrote.
I quoted your phrase "the facts" and didn't change anything you wrote.
If anyone else did, you might start paying more attention.
> Secondly, the only reason we are even discussing this issue is because many
> Mets fans "noticed" Minaya's attempt to fill the ML roster with Hispanic
> players is:
> (1) A consistent behavior, and
Consistent when you ignore the additions of non-Latino players and the
availalability of players at least as good as, if not better than, the
Latino players available?
> (2) Most notably is out of the statistical norm of behavior for the
> "average" GM.
Do tell. Bring on the stats.
> Point two is why any fan would even notice the trend in the first place.
> Most of us are real Mets fans who follow transaction and see the player our
> team does and DOES NOT acquire. In many cases, when Minaya has made deals,
> it seems that there were other players to be had that might have been a
> better fit, less expensive in dollars or young talent traded and even the
> number of years to which various players are signed.
Such as?
> Is it possible that in each case the real issue is some information to which
> we fans are not privy? Sure, it is possible. But again, it boils down to
> statistical abnormalities over a period of time that forms a fairly clear
> trend.
>
> Here is an example that can easily be defended when someone who is less
> objective will claim racism. When the Mets resigned Luis Castillo for 4
> years at $25 million, I wasn't thrilled. Not because he is Hispanic, but
> because of his health condition, number of years playing MLB and his clear
> loss of speed. BUT, after I looked at what else is available (again as far
> as average fan can see...) there really wasn't a better alternative out
> there. So from what I can see, the signing made sense. I just hope his knees
> hold out!
Me, too. But of course, you're providing an example that runs counter
to your premise as a means of proving that your premise isn't mere
knee-jerk racism. That's laudable. Then again, if its only purpose is
to make the people holding the opinion that Omar is a racist look less
like racists themselves, it's kind of a straw man, no?
> Another example was when Minaya was first hired as GM. He went after Pedro
> Martinez, Carlos Delgado and Carlos Beltran. That was clearly because those
> three guys were the best three players available for the Mets needs that
> off-season! No racism involved. I just wish we had gotten Delgado too so we
> wouldn't have had to trade for him the following season - not to mention
> that he seems to have had his last, best year in Florida.
Okay, again. You're suggesting that these signings are not, in
themselves, racist acts, but they somehow contribute to the statistics
indicating a trend of racism? I guess if you ignore the reality of the
individual acts, yes.
> Anyway, back to Earth.... a consistent statistical deviation from the norm
> is what makes many people (including myself) believe that Minaya is a
> racist.
Even when the stats are padded by acts which don't support the theory?
> POINT TO PHIL - you are correct in asserting that we cannot know for sure
> Minaya is doing all of this to stack the ethnic deck of the Mets. Nobody
> knows for sure what he is thinking in his own mind. I am just agreeing with
> many fans that see the same trend Minaya has taken since day one in favor of
> Hispanic players.
Except that, again, you're using your conclusion as a premise in
support of your conclusion. Racism, or, rather, discrimination,
requires intent. We really don't know all of what Omar is thinking when
he does what he does. We can guess, but we can't know; even if he tells
us, we can't be completely certain. But if we look for a consistent
trend of behaviors or events, all we know is that Omar has signed or
traded for some players, and many of them have been Latinos. That's
what, and all that, we know. If you choose to interpet these events as
a trend of favoritism, you can, but there's no more logical reason to
make that interpretation than there is to conclude that the market for
non-Latinos is comparatively weak.
> After all, I don't think George Bush ever stated as fact that his primary
> objective for his Presidency was to drain the middle class of its
> accumulated wealth and redistribute it up to the wealthiest 1% of Americans,
> but I believe (or at least hope) most intelligent Americans can see that for
> themselves by now.
I'd say that objective has been displaced in favor of playing in the
bathtub with real live toy soldiers, boats, and planes. But yes, it's
clear that every day is payday for his buddies, many of whom are toy
manufacturers.
In the end, though, in both cases it's not that the events aren't there
to see. It's a matter of interpreting them according to how you _can_
interpret them, how you _want to_ interpret them, and according to
which interpretation best represents the totality of the events.
Pasta
what I've written over the last few days, I've tried to explain why some
Mets fan (including myself) believe Minaya is racist. I have even backed off
my original statement (which I admit I worded too harshly) that he "IS" a
racist. After all, unless he admits it publicly, there is absolutely no way
to PROVE anything. Just as there was no proof that the '80s Mets management
under Frank Cashen's reign were being racist in trying to acquire white
players over African-American players (despite George Foster's complaints at
the time).
All of this ends up being a waste of time argument. I am not a racist
myself. I have many relatives (through marriage) and close friends (at least
before I moved upstate to get old an die) that were white, Hispanic,
African-American, Jewish, Muslim, and most every ethnic group that you can
name. That's the beauty if NY. It's a great melting pot.
In my last post, I mentioned two examples that, were I a racist, I would
have pointed a finger. I was trying to show that in those two cases (and I
could probably find more), that were simply the best business deals. I'm not
trying to create a smoke screen or any other bull. I was trying to show that
if you look at each transaction one at a time, you can see that there are
times that the deal makes sense and others (my example of Mark Teixeira in
my fist post) that make one wonder if Minaya would honestly even consider a
transaction giving up major league Hispanic talent for a long term player
who is white.
Today (or yesterday), Minaya said that he would not consider trading Reyes.
Intelligent fan will realize that is a wise decision, since barring injury,
Jose should only get better (experience should raise walks, hence OBP and
average by not swinging at bad pitches...). To trade him would be worse than
trading Scott Kazmir a couple of years ago and probably rank just below the
Seaver trade.
But again as I wrote in my original post, "I personally believe" having
watched all the transactions that have taken place since Minaya was hired as
GM, that the argument that he is a racist is probably the strongest case
that I have seen in the last 40 years of watching MLB.
You guys can keep posting arguments to the contrary, but I am stating what
"I believe," and I know many other Mets fans believe, from watching Minaya's
work - and that is that he clearly wishes to create a Mets roster of mostly
Hispanic players.
PS - the three-year, $10.8 million deal he offered to Scott Schoeneweis was
just plain stupid! Ascribing a motive to that signing is also possible. I
thought the same thing... And before you rip me for defending Schoeneweis
(which I won't), I am not Jewish - and from the other side, I am not
anti-Semitic (my wife is Jewish).
Thanks for the banter, but I'm done on this topic for now. I just hope the
Mets can get at least one #2 or #3 starter and another inning eater. Go
Mets.
"El Abogado Que Delira En Usenet®" <siempred...@googlelaw.net> wrote in
message news:diuuk3df0ls9kj2qq...@4ax.com...
> [Default] On Thu, 29 Nov 2007 02:38:53 -0500, "Pasta"
> <past...@nycap.rr.com> escribió:
> I understand that you didn't write that. But what you did write was
> most certainly an exercise in circular logic.
>
> >You changed what I wrote.
>
> I was summarizing what appeared to be your argument, based on the lack
> of any actual evidence advanced to support your conclusion.
>
> >Secondly, the only reason we are even discussing this issue is because
many
> >Mets fans "noticed" Minaya's attempt to fill the ML roster with Hispanic
> >players is:
> >(1) A consistent behavior,
>
> Consistent behavior of what? Every GM looks to acquire Hispanic
> players, not just Minaya. But it so happens that a lot of the best
> players happen to be Hispanic, so we don't assume a racist motive
> on their part. But of course, those other GMs aren't Hispanic.
>
> >and
> >(2) Most notably is out of the statistical norm of behavior for the
> >"average" GM.
>
> And what's the statistical norm of behavior for the average GM? Do
> you know the average number of Hispanic players per major league
> roster? Do you know what proportion of other teams' acquisitions
> consisted of Hispanic players? Can you tell us how they compare
> statistically to Omar Minaya? Do you have any actual evidence at
> all to support your conclusion? If so, please enlighten me.
>
> >Point two is why any fan would even notice the trend in the first place.
> >Most of us are real Mets fans who follow transaction and see the player
our
> >team does and DOES NOT acquire. In many cases, when Minaya has made
deals,
> >it seems that there were other players to be had that might have been a
> >better fit, less expensive in dollars or young talent traded and even the
> >number of years to which various players are signed.
>
> Seems to me that the most egregious example of that would be the
> three-year, $10.8 million deal he offered to Scott Schoeneweis. Of
> course, since he's a Jew from Long Branch and not the least little bit
> Hispanic, this doesn't really help your theory.
>
> >Is it possible that in each case the real issue is some information to
which
> >we fans are not privy?
>
> Each case of what? If you're not going to cite them for us, then we
> can't be sure which acquisitions you're even referring to.
>
> >Sure, it is possible. But again, it boils down to
> >statistical abnormalities over a period of time that forms a fairly clear
> >trend.
>
> You have yet to demonstrate any such "statistical abnormality."
>
> >Here is an example that can easily be defended when someone who is less
> >objective will claim racism. When the Mets resigned Luis Castillo for 4
> >years at $25 million, I wasn't thrilled. Not because he is Hispanic, but
> >because of his health condition, number of years playing MLB and his
clear
> >loss of speed. BUT, after I looked at what else is available (again as
far
> >as average fan can see...) there really wasn't a better alternative out
> >there. So from what I can see, the signing made sense. I just hope his
knees
> >hold out!
>
> So you're offering an example of what you believe to be a non-racially
> motivated signing as proof of what, exactly? That Omar is a racist,
> but not always? I don't understand what point you're trying to
> make here.
>
> >Another example was when Minaya was first hired as GM. He went after
Pedro
> >Martinez, Carlos Delgado and Carlos Beltran. That was clearly because
those
> >three guys were the best three players available for the Mets needs that
> >off-season! No racism involved. I just wish we had gotten Delgado too so
we
> >wouldn't have had to trade for him the following season - not to mention
> >that he seems to have had his last, best year in Florida.
>
> >Anyway, back to Earth.... a consistent statistical deviation from the
norm
> >is what makes many people (including myself) believe that Minaya is a
> >racist.
>
> Again, I don't understand what you're trying to prove here. You're
> acknowledging that none of these acquisitions were motivated by race,
> and yet you'd still count them as part of a "statistical deviation
> from the norm" that would prove Minaya's overall motive for acquiring
> players is based on racism? Sorry, but that doesn't make sense. And
> you still haven't shown that any such deviation actually exists. What
> exactly is the norm? Give us the facts, please, and not just your
> conclusions.
>
> >POINT TO PHIL - you are correct in asserting that we cannot know for sure
> >Minaya is doing all of this to stack the ethnic deck of the Mets.
>
> I don't know how you can possibly reconcile that statement with this
> one:
>
> :: Minaya's actions during his tenure have fairly clearly defined him as a
> :: racist. This does not mean that he will continue this trend, but
based
> :: on the facts, he has been acquiring players (for the major league team)
as
> :: someone who clearly favors Hispanic players.
>
> We can't know for sure if he's trying to stack the deck with Hispanic
> players, but you know that he's been acquiring players for the major
> league team as someone who clearly favors Hispanics.
>
> You don't see an inherent contradiction there?
>
> >Nobody knows for sure what he is thinking in his own mind.
>
> Yet you know that he's a racist who clearly favors Hispanic players.
>
> >I am just agreeing with many fans that see the same trend Minaya
> >has taken since day one in favor of Hispanic players.
>
> But you're not just commenting on a trend. You're also assigning a
> motive. It's one thing to say, "My, the Mets have acquired a lot of
> Hispanic players," and quite another to say, "Yeah, that's because
> Omar Minaya is a racist."
>
> :: After all, I don't think George Bush ever stated as fact that his
primary
> :: objective for his Presidency was to drain the middle class of its
> :: accumulated wealth and redistribute it up to the wealthiest 1% of
Americans,
> :: but I believe (or at least hope) most intelligent Americans can see
that for
> :: themselves by now.
>
> Yes, but is he doing that because he happens to like rich people
> better than the rest of us, or because he truly believes in his own
> misguided mind that this will somehow benefit society in the long run?
> Again, the policy may be disastrous, but you're ascribing a motive to
> his actions when that's not necessarily clear. Similarly, it's
> entirely possible that the numbers will show that Minaya _does_
> acquire more Hispanic players than the average GM, but that still
> doesn't tell us why. Does he do so because he thinks those players
> give him the best chance to win, or merely because he's a racist who
> likes Hispanics better than Anglos? As you said yourself, nobody
> can really know for sure what he's thinking in his own mind.
>
> The fact is, even if you can provide statistical proof for your
> contention, which you still haven't done, proving a racist motive is
> another matter altogether. So far, all you've done is assume that
> one exists.
>
> -- EAQDEU®
>
>
>
>
>
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Wretch
> things
Pasta -- I don't think it is accurate to call Omar Minaya a racist. I
have used that word in reference to him in order to rankle Mut fans,
but it's just not appropriate (unless you're having fun at the expense
of the raw-nerved, grumpy, overly sensitive Mut fans of course).
Racism connotes some belief of racial superiority, and there is no
evidence that Minaya feels that way. It's more appropriate to call
him prejudicial in his hiring decisions.
Latino players constitute about 30% of Major League Baseball. Going
by the Mut roster as listed at
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/teams/roster?team=nym
one sees that 21/35 of the Mut roster is comprised of latinos (a small
few born in the USA). That's sixty percent, twice the MLB average for
the league. Mut fans who protest Minaya's blatant bias cannot explain
away this fact, although it's highly amusing to watch them try. And
these raw numbers don't even account for the inexplicable dismissal of
Lo Duca, or the absurd degree of "forgiveness" afforded a steroid
abusing loser like Guillermo Mota.
W