Time
POPS
hitting and fielding great. Now it is time to say that the Mets are slip
sliding away................
spike lee
Wright ain't the problem, he's hitting .300+ and had another ribby
last nite, tied with Howard for NL lead.
Easy to see Mets problem: Frenchy and Bay don't hit. They gave Bay
mega money and he's hitting .260 or so, few HRs, pathetic
Sit Frenchy down now, put anyone in. Move Pagan to right when Beltran
is ready.
tmp
I hope it works....
The way they are playing right now, they will be lucky to get 1 of these
3. They need the All Star break badly, and they really need to put Reyes
on the DL. I mean, are they *trying* to lose him for the season?
Harlan Lachman
<016d6654-5d41-431c...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
spike lee <jamez...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Frenchy is not the problem. He did not sign himself to this team. He did
not force the Mets to throw needed money at Ollie P. He did not make the
choices our FO made (and did not make).
The fish rots at the head and the Mets will not be better until the
Wilpons either sell or take a hands off approach and we get a better GM.
harlan
Stewart
"tmp" <t...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:4c387eee$0$22529$607e...@cv.net...
They are just normalizing back to mediocre.
spike lee
> not force the Mets to throw needed money at Ollie P. He did not make the
> choices our FO made (and did not make).
There's a reason 1st place Braves dumped Frenchy 2 years ago, he
doesn't get the 2 out hit....
Uncle Abogado®
Or the one-out hit, or the no-out hit.
Uncle Abogado®
wrote:
>In article
><016d6654-5d41-431c...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> spike lee <jamez...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 10, 6:41 am, "POPS" <metfa...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> > for a negative post. The last time I trashed David Wright, he started
>> > hitting and fielding great. Now it is time to say that the Mets are slip
>> > sliding away................
>>
>> Wright ain't the problem, he's hitting .300+ and had another ribby
>> last nite, tied with Howard for NL lead.
>>
>> Easy to see Mets problem: Frenchy and Bay don't hit. They gave Bay
>> mega money and he's hitting .260 or so, few HRs, pathetic
>>
>> Sit Frenchy down now, put anyone in. Move Pagan to right when Beltran
>> is ready.
>
>Frenchy is not the problem.
He's the worst right fielder in baseball. I consider that a problem.
Tristan daCunha
out?
He's injured....in his f'n head!
Tell him to get off the juice.
tmp
Normalizing back to stupid is more like it. It takes David Wright to
notice that Reyes is hurting too much to be playing??
He can't swing a bat, can't throw without pain. I dunno Jerry. Think
maybe you should do something?? No rush - think it over.
POPS
Me thinks that this comes from upstairs, not Jerry. The medicos tell the GM
and ownership the results on injury tests. With a big series against the
Bravos, there was no way Jeffy was going to let Jose' sit. Hence, folks, why
in the hell is Jose' only batting right handed. That's because he is
INJURED. Nothing has changed with this dysfunctional organization. Ryan
Church, among others, is smiling................
tmp
Maybe I'm naive, but I'd have to seriously doubt Jeffy would directly
order Manuel to play Reyes. Indirectly yeah - I'm sure Manuel felt some
pressure to do well in this series. And with Reyes insisting on playing,
and no hard and fast medical reason not to play him, he decided to do it.
OK fine. But just watching him play Friday night, it was clear that he
shouldn't be out there, and that should have been the end of it right
there. Not only does he play him again yesterday, but he sits on his ass
watching him play in pain *again*, until David Wright finally gets him
out there to do something.
I don't see how Manuel gets off the hook for that, regardless of
anything else.
POPS
Manuel has complete autonomy, just like Omar does. RIGHT. Wright had to make
a public display, which got Jerry off the hook. He immediately pulled Reyes.
And as he was walking back to the dugout, you could clearly see Jerry
pointing out to Wright. He was "saying" thanks for bailing me out. I doubt
Jeffy would challenge Wright. Early in his tenure as manager, he did pull
Reyes out of a game for injury. I'm sure he got called on the carpet for
taking out a star player. The Wilpons are pulling the strings, here. If
anybody thinks they are not involved in EVERYTHING baseball related, then
they aren't paying attention.
Ruben Safir
> In article
> <016d6654-5d41-431c...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> spike lee <jamez...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > for a negative post. The last time I trashed David Wright, he started
>> > hitting and fielding great. Now it is time to say that the Mets are slip
>> > sliding away................
>>
>> Wright ain't the problem, he's hitting .300+ and had another ribby
>> last nite, tied with Howard for NL lead.
>>
>> Easy to see Mets problem: Frenchy and Bay don't hit. They gave Bay
>> mega money and he's hitting .260 or so, few HRs, pathetic
>>
>> Sit Frenchy down now, put anyone in. Move Pagan to right when Beltran
>> is ready.
>
> Frenchy is not the problem. He did not sign himself to this team. He did
> not force the Mets to throw needed money at Ollie P. He did not make the
> choices our FO made (and did not make).
>
French IS the problem. This team isn't scoring any runs and he is
filling the key offensive position with a sickly offensive output.
Frechy is problem Number #1 with this team. You can't win games when
you score less than 2 runs a game.
> The fish rots at the head and the Mets will not be better until the
> Wilpons either sell or take a hands off approach and we get a better GM.
>
eh...that doesn't let frenchy off the hook.
> harlan
Ruben
Ruben Safir
The problem is that they have no reasonable SS backup. They can't win
consistantly with two Tejada's in the middle infield, their rookie 1st
baseman adjusting to MLB scouting, and their RF with a 300OBP.
Stanglely enough, they can really use Daniel Murphy right now at 2nd
base, and anyone on earth in RF.
BTW - Barry: Tatis can't replace Davis because I believe he is also on
the DL, unless I'm mistaken. They could use a rental vertern right now
like Jim Thome.
BTW - I still am optomistic about the team, especially going into next
season (assuming they don't just shoot Reyes in the calf). Thole is
looking good, Davis to me is showing real talent that wil be molded,
Tejada is adequate, I like Niese and Dickey...even going into next
season. They need a RFer.
Ruben
tmp
I'm not exactly a member of the Jeffy Wilpon Fan Club (if there was such
a thing). But I go by what I see, not by what I think might be going on
behind the scenes.
What I saw was for 2 games in a row, a player out there playing when he
clearly was hurting and should have been taken out. That's the manager's
job, and IMO he wasn't doing it. And I really don't know or care what
the reason was.
POPS
I believe there are certain calls made that are beyond what the manager
wants. I'm not a big supporter of Jerry Manuel, but I think he takes care of
his players.
Tristan daCunha
He'll never last! Word...
Uncle Abogado®
I don't think Murphy made more than a couple of appearances at second
before his season ended. There's no way he's ready to play second
base at the major league level at this stage of his career.
>BTW - Barry: Tatis can't replace Davis because I believe he is also on
>the DL, unless I'm mistaken.
Yes, with rosteritis. My suspicion is that he'd make a very quick
recovery if Davis was ever dealt away.
>They could use a rental vertern right now like Jim Thome.
Of course they could, but the same thing was true at the start of this
season, and they went with Jacobs and Tatis instead. We should
never assume that Mets management has a grasp of the obvious.
>BTW - I still am optomistic about the team, especially going into next
>season (assuming they don't just shoot Reyes in the calf). Thole is
>looking good,
I thought he had a great AB in the 8th inning today, and he's looked
very good in limited action. But I still don't see any continuing
need for three catchers on the roster. My gut feeling is that the
reason he's still hanging around is that he's being shopped.
>Davis to me is showing real talent that wil be molded,
Agreed. Then again, they haven't exactly had much success when it
comes to developing first basemen from within the organization. As
far as I can tell, the last real first base prospect to make any sort
of lasting impact on the franchise was John Milner. (Dave Magadan
was originally a third baseman, so I'm not counting him.)
>Tejada is adequate,
Not really. He's done a nice job defensively, but he's really
overmatched on offense. It's looking more and more like Castillo
will reclaim the second base job when (or if) he returns.
>I like Niese and Dickey...even going into next season. They need a RFer.
They also need another starting pitcher and a major-league ready
second baseman. If this thing with Reyes lingers, another backup
infielder wouldn't be a bad idea, either.
Ruben Safir
> I'm not exactly a member of the Jeffy Wilpon Fan Club (if there was such
> a thing). But I go by what I see, not by what I think might be going on
> behind the scenes.
>
> What I saw was for 2 games in a row, a player out there playing when he
> clearly was hurting and should have been taken out. That's the manager's
> job, and IMO he wasn't doing it. And I really don't know or care what
> the reason was.
they can swap Wally for Jerry..
Ruben Safir
Trading your catching prospect is real stupid, especially since I think
we've seen about the best we are going to see out of the two FA catchers
they signed.
That is how this team gets screwed.
>>Davis to me is showing real talent that wil be molded,
>
> Agreed. Then again, they haven't exactly had much success when it
> comes to developing first basemen from within the organization. As far
> as I can tell, the last real first base prospect to make any sort of
> lasting impact on the franchise was John Milner. (Dave Magadan was
> originally a third baseman, so I'm not counting him.)
>
is there a position they HAVE been able to develop?
>>Tejada is adequate,
>
> Not really. He's done a nice job defensively, but he's really
> overmatched on offense. It's looking more and more like Castillo will
> reclaim the second base job when (or if) he returns.
>
They can't win with an infield more porous the a fishing net
>>I like Niese and Dickey...even going into next season. They need a
>>RFer.
>
> They also need another starting pitcher and a major-league ready second
> baseman. If this thing with Reyes lingers, another backup infielder
> wouldn't be a bad idea, either.
They need a back up middle infielder and for the life of me I just don't
know why there isn't one in the minor leagues. Maybe they have to call
the LI Ducks and see if they have one. What is with Havens?
Your extra pitcher is likely to be Meja.
Ruevain
Ruben Safir
>>Davis to me is showing real talent that wil be molded,
>
> Agreed. Then again, they haven't exactly had much success when it
> comes to developing first basemen from within the organization. As far
> as I can tell, the last real first base prospect to make any sort of
> lasting impact on the franchise was John Milner. (Dave Magadan was
> originally a third baseman, so I'm not counting him.)
If Davis dumped the Charlie Lau hitting style that would improve his
numbers.
Ruben
jonathan
> >>the DL, unless I'm mistaken.
>
> > Yes, with rosteritis. My suspicion is that he'd make a very quick
> > recovery if Davis was ever dealt away.
Omar has a total hard-on for Tatis since I believe he signed him
originally in the Rangers organization. Omar will always give this
guy a job. He'll never release this guy. He can hide him on the DL
indefinitely at this point.
>
> >>They could use a rental vertern right now like Jim Thome.
>
> > Of course they could, but the same thing was true at the start of this
> > season, and they went with Jacobs and Tatis instead. We should never
> > assume that Mets management has a grasp of the obvious.
Or has objectivity, which to me is the more damning issue. There's
very little real analysis that happens and far too much 'gut' that
goes into their decision making. That's not me talking either. It's
been well documented that the Mets and Giants are basically the only
two franchises in baseball that do not make significant use of
statistical analysis in the front offices.
> > I thought he had a great AB in the 8th inning today, and he's looked
> > very good in limited action. But I still don't see any continuing need
> > for three catchers on the roster. My gut feeling is that the reason
> > he's still hanging around is that he's being shopped.
>
> Trading your catching prospect is real stupid, especially since I think
> we've seen about the best we are going to see out of the two FA catchers
> they signed.
>
> That is how this team gets screwed.
The whole catching scenario is fascinating to me. Omar let's Jesus
Flores (who granted, has gotten hurt since) go for nothing in favor of
Paul Lo Duca. Then, he makes the good decision of letting Lo Duca go,
only to pick up Brian Schneider when he has a much better option
(Ramon Castro) sitting right there. Now, he has Thole, who I
personally think is a bit limited offensively, but given the relative
dearth of catching in baseball right now, is probably adequate, and he
spends most of the year in the minors in favor of two more veterans.
It's not that Blanco and Barajas aren't ok . . . but you never needed
both of them. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed because Barajas had a
nice month at the plate, but the reality is he sucks and between him,
Francouer, and the pitcher, 1/3 of the lineup is an automatic out.
Had they done Thole and Blanco, they could have gotten the same
thing. If Thole is going to be in the mix as their catcher, then he
needs to play. Blanco is a terrific tutor and twice-a-week guy.
>
> >>Davis to me is showing real talent that wil be molded,
>
> > Agreed. Then again, they haven't exactly had much success when it
> > comes to developing first basemen from within the organization. As far
> > as I can tell, the last real first base prospect to make any sort of
> > lasting impact on the franchise was John Milner. (Dave Magadan was
> > originally a third baseman, so I'm not counting him.)
>
> is there a position they HAVE been able to develop?
No, and it's disgusting. The inability of the FRANCHISE to develop
position players over the last 49 years is completely damning.
Strawberry is the career leader in OPS+ at 145. John Olerud is the
only other player over 140. There are only 6 teams that have a career
OPS+ leader equal or below the Mets.
Brewers (141)
Diamondbacks (130)
Rays (136)
Royals (144)
Twins (145)
Angels (141)
So two teams that have only been around for 12 years, three others
that have had definite periods of success but also long periods of
losing and constant issues with market size. That leaves the Angels
as the only realistic (and probably appropriate) comparison.
Actually, I never thought about it until right now but I think the
Angels and Mets are the two most comparable teams to baseball in terms
of non-baseball context.
>
> >>Tejada is adequate,
>
> > Not really. He's done a nice job defensively, but he's really
> > overmatched on offense. It's looking more and more like Castillo will
> > reclaim the second base job when (or if) he returns.
>
> They can't win with an infield more porous the a fishing net
They can't win with Tejada in the lineup longterm. Now, coupled with
Barajas, Francouer, and the pitcher, you have FOUR automatic outs.
You have to score at some point.
>
> >>I like Niese and Dickey...even going into next season. They need a
> >>RFer.
They need some outfielders who can hit. There are very few catchers
in baseball who can hit so I'm not optimistic on that one. They
should be able to find a second baseman who can get on base and who
has range that exceeds a statue.
>
> > They also need another starting pitcher and a major-league ready second
> > baseman. If this thing with Reyes lingers, another backup infielder
> > wouldn't be a bad idea, either.
I'm not arguing that the bench isn't important because it is, but I'm
more concerned with the lineup first. Find me 8 good players and then
I'll worry about the bench.
>
> They need a back up middle infielder and for the life of me I just don't
> know why there isn't one in the minor leagues. Maybe they have to call
> the LI Ducks and see if they have one. What is with Havens?
I like Havens but he seems to have injury issues. There are also
questions about his defense, although to be honest I'm less concerned
about those. I'd be more confident if the Mets seemed to have strong
defensive coaching their system but I'd really see that. Maybe they
can hire Brian Butterfield away from the Blue Jays.
tmp
Backman will most likely get his shot at some point...
I just came across something that's actually pretty funny. You know how
Manuel has been whining for weeks that he doesn't have "an 8th inning
guy"?
Take a look at their "Runs Allowed by inning" chart at this link:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/inning_summary.cgi?year_game=2010&team_id=NYM
In the 8th inning, the Mets allow 2.38 runs/9 innings, and that is
actually their BEST inning of the game - better than the 9th or any
other inning. And the 8th inning average for all NL teams is 4.02 per 9
innings.
You would think someone with the Mets would look this up and tell Jerry
to be quiet about it ....
Ruben Safir
> and he
> spends most of the year in the minors in favor of two more veterans.
> It's not that Blanco and Barajas aren't ok . . . but you never needed
> both of them. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed because Barajas had a
> nice month at the plate, but the reality is he sucks and between him,
Not from me. I think you've gotten all your going to get from Barajas,
who is the anti-thole. He has no plate discipline and had a good run.
Now is the time to find the next guy who is going to have a good run and
that seems to be Thole. As for picking up both catchers, I don't think
going into this season that Thole was ready, especially defensive. He
seems to have picked up on that end of the game fast.
Ruben
Ruben Safir
> Brewers (141) - Yount and Molitor (not to mention Cecil Cooper)
> Diamondbacks (130) Gonzolez - eh steroids.
> Rays (136) - Longento
> Royals (144) - George Brett
> Twins (145) - Kilabrew
> Angels (141) - Jim Edmons, Glaus.
So where does that leave the Mets in player development.
Ruben
Ruben Safir
> I'm not arguing that the bench isn't important because it is, but I'm
> more concerned with the lineup first. Find me 8 good players and then
> I'll worry about the bench.
If they have a bench they can platoon players and cover up weaknesses.
They can't function at all now. It takes 25 players to win.
Ruben
Ruben Safir
> In the 8th inning, the Mets allow 2.38 runs/9 innings, and that is
> actually their BEST inning of the game - better than the 9th or any
> other inning. And the 8th inning average for all NL teams is 4.02 per 9
> innings.
>
> You would think someone with the Mets would look this up and tell Jerry
> to be quiet about it ....
>
You know what that is about? Its about putting anyone in the 8th inning
who is working out and to hell with the roles.
Ruben
KathyGlickstern
> > >>BTW - Barry: Tatis can't replace Davis because I believe he is also on
> > >>the DL, unless I'm mistaken.
>
> > > Yes, with rosteritis. My suspicion is that he'd make a very quick
> > > recovery if Davis was ever dealt away.
>
> Omar has a total hard-on for Tatis since I believe he signed him
> originally in the Rangers organization. Omar will always give this
> guy a job. He'll never release this guy. He can hide him on the DL
> indefinitely at this point.
>
I think Tatis was most useful back in 2008 -- in fact, his late-season
shoulder injury was likely a contributing factor to their September
swoon.
But I disagree with Barry: I don't think it's rosteritis; instead, I
don't think Tatis has ever recovered from that shoulder injury. At
this point, I'm not sure he ever will.
[...]
> > Trading your catching prospect is real stupid, especially since I think
> > we've seen about the best we are going to see out of the two FA catchers
> > they signed.
>
> > That is how this team gets screwed.
>
> The whole catching scenario is fascinating to me. Omar let's Jesus
> Flores (who granted, has gotten hurt since) go for nothing in favor of
> Paul Lo Duca. Then, he makes the good decision of letting Lo Duca go,
> only to pick up Brian Schneider when he has a much better option
> (Ramon Castro) sitting right there.
You're understating this: Brian Schneider might be the worst catcher
in baseball. It's conclusive that he offers little offensively, but
his catcher's ERA tends to be a run higher than the other backstops on
his team. There's something very wrong with that picture on the
whole.
But, that said, there was something probably up with Castro, too.
Considering he was a number-one pick who put up killer numbers in the
minors, you have to wonder why he's never been entrusted with a full-
time job and how off-the-field factors have always seemed to enter his
equations.
Now, he has Thole, who I
> personally think is a bit limited offensively, but given the relative
> dearth of catching in baseball right now, is probably adequate, and he
> spends most of the year in the minors in favor of two more veterans.
> It's not that Blanco and Barajas aren't ok . . . but you never needed
> both of them. I'm sure I'm going to get flamed because Barajas had a
> nice month at the plate, but the reality is he sucks and between him,
> Francouer, and the pitcher, 1/3 of the lineup is an automatic out.
> Had they done Thole and Blanco, they could have gotten the same
> thing. If Thole is going to be in the mix as their catcher, then he
> needs to play. Blanco is a terrific tutor and twice-a-week guy.
I'm actually not opposed to having little-hit veteran catchers if
they're serving the purpose of helping the pitching staff. We'll
never be able to isolate who or what is responsible for the
development of some of the team's younger arms, but I have to wonder
whether the same growth would have been experienced with Thole as the
#1 catcher. I have no tangible evidence, mind you, but I have to
think having Barajas back there is like having a pitching coach on
staff; I remember all too well what happened when we left this to
Warthen and Santos.
Is Barajas an out machine? Yes. But, in addition to his defense and
handling of the pitching staff, he does offer power for his position.
He's not a total waste in my book. I would jump at Thole in a second
if I thought he could offer similar attributes behind the plate, but I
just don't see it.
[...]
>
> > >>Tejada is adequate,
>
> > > Not really. He's done a nice job defensively, but he's really
> > > overmatched on offense. It's looking more and more like Castillo will
> > > reclaim the second base job when (or if) he returns.
>
> > They can't win with an infield more porous the a fishing net
>
> They can't win with Tejada in the lineup longterm. Now, coupled with
> Barajas, Francouer, and the pitcher, you have FOUR automatic outs.
> You have to score at some point.
I don't think Tejada is ready for everyday play right now -- but his
minor-league numbers, especially considering his age, suggest he can
be a useful big-leaguer. The real question with him is whether he
develops any kind of SLG as he matures, because his glove is fine and
he seems to know how to take the occasional walk.
>
>
>
> > >>I like Niese and Dickey...even going into next season. They need a
> > >>RFer.
>
> They need some outfielders who can hit.
I put on my Miss Cleo doo-rag and envision Lucas Duda being this
year's version of Daniel Murphy: The otherwise-obscure rookie who
comes up in late August and sets the league on fire. Duda is very
interesting in that he comes from a major college program, has good
size and has always had the ability to get on base -- but now,
suddenly, his power has just blossomed. And, considering the dearth
of lefty power on this team, I could see him taking Carter's spot on
the bench sooner than later.
And don't forget Niewenhuis, either. He's brought up his K:BB ratio
(was around 4:1 earlier and is now approaching 3:1) and is slugging
over .500 at AA at age 22.
When you put F-Mart, Duda and Niewenhuis together, you've got three
potential power-hitting outfielders -- a true rarity that the Mets
probably haven't seen in 25 years.
There are very few catchers
> in baseball who can hit so I'm not optimistic on that one. They
> should be able to find a second baseman who can get on base and who
> has range that exceeds a statue.
>
>
>
> > > They also need another starting pitcher and a major-league ready second
> > > baseman. If this thing with Reyes lingers, another backup infielder
> > > wouldn't be a bad idea, either.
>
> I'm not arguing that the bench isn't important because it is, but I'm
> more concerned with the lineup first. Find me 8 good players and then
> I'll worry about the bench.
>
>
>
> > They need a back up middle infielder and for the life of me I just don't
> > know why there isn't one in the minor leagues. Maybe they have to call
> > the LI Ducks and see if they have one. What is with Havens?
>
> I like Havens but he seems to have injury issues. There are also
> questions about his defense, although to be honest I'm less concerned
> about those. I'd be more confident if the Mets seemed to have strong
> defensive coaching their system but I'd really see that. Maybe they
> can hire Brian Butterfield away from the Blue Jays.
By all indications, Havens was coming along quickly with the bat
before suffering yet another injury. I don't worry too much about his
defense because he played shortstop in a major college program and
because it's his bat that will carry him, if and when he makes the big
leagues.
jonathan
> shoulder injury was likely a contributing factor to their September
> swoon.
>
> But I disagree with Barry: I don't think it's rosteritis; instead, I
> don't think Tatis has ever recovered from that shoulder injury. At
> this point, I'm not sure he ever will.
Tatis is a really good example of a really good Omar idea that he just
didn't know when to let go of. He's no different from Marlon Anderson
and Damion Easley and Jose Valentin. I have no problem signing these
guys on Spring Training invites and seeing what they have and catching
lighting in a bottle. The problem I have is that Omar has
consistently held on to these guys and paying them for what they did
as opposed to what they will do. There are numerous examples already.
> You're understating this: Brian Schneider might be the worst catcher
> in baseball. It's conclusive that he offers little offensively, but
> his catcher's ERA tends to be a run higher than the other backstops on
> his team. There's something very wrong with that picture on the
> whole.
I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but isn't is fascinating how this
guy keeps getting jobs? The only thing I can figure is that
management thinks he's a good clubhouse guy or something. He's never
been a good player.
>
> But, that said, there was something probably up with Castro, too.
> Considering he was a number-one pick who put up killer numbers in the
> minors, you have to wonder why he's never been entrusted with a full-
> time job and how off-the-field factors have always seemed to enter his
> equations.
The Castro thing always fascinated me. I think part of it is that he
was injury prone and had a 'bad body' which meant management tended to
undervalue him. I also think there may have been some personality
issues there.
>
> I'm actually not opposed to having little-hit veteran catchers if
> they're serving the purpose of helping the pitching staff. We'll
> never be able to isolate who or what is responsible for the
> development of some of the team's younger arms, but I have to wonder
> whether the same growth would have been experienced with Thole as the
> #1 catcher. I have no tangible evidence, mind you, but I have to
> think having Barajas back there is like having a pitching coach on
> staff; I remember all too well what happened when we left this to
> Warthen and Santos.
I buy this to an extent, since, as you know, I don't think Warthen
could teach a fish how to swim. Isn't that where Blanco comes in
though? His CERA is actually better then Barajas . . . plus, Blanco
could easily be teaching Thole the tips of the trade while Thole gets
valuable playing time at the major league level. Blanco dwarfs
Barajas as a defender. He's the one I'd want Thole to most emulate.
>
> Is Barajas an out machine? Yes. But, in addition to his defense and
> handling of the pitching staff, he does offer power for his position.
> He's not a total waste in my book. I would jump at Thole in a second
> if I thought he could offer similar attributes behind the plate, but I
> just don't see it.
I honestly have no idea. They're hard to judge in small samples.
Catcher is a very nuanced position and without better understanding
the relationship it's tough to know. Honestly, Warthen affects this
too since theoretically he's the guy gameplanning how they pitch to
certain hitters. Of course, maybe he doesn't bother which explains
some of the issues.
I'm neither a fan nor detractor of Thole. I'm very objective on him
and I need to see more. He may pan out, he may not, but we won't know
unless he plays. Catchers are so hard to predict, although there
seems to be a glut of strong young catchers right now. The position
has totally shifted in the last 3-4 years.
> I don't think Tejada is ready for everyday play right now -- but his
> minor-league numbers, especially considering his age, suggest he can
> be a useful big-leaguer. The real question with him is whether he
> develops any kind of SLG as he matures, because his glove is fine and
> he seems to know how to take the occasional walk.
I think he can get on base eventually. I just think he's an automatic
out now. Put him in the middle of the Yankee or Red Sox lineup and
you can probably survive. The problem is the Mets already have a P,
RF, and C who can't hit. Now you're adding the 2B. Eventually you
just have too many outs to provide any consistent offensive support.
This is not the 1971 Orioles rotation. This rotation and particularly
this bullpen can't play 2-1 games every night.
> I put on my Miss Cleo doo-rag and envision Lucas Duda being this
> year's version of Daniel Murphy: The otherwise-obscure rookie who
> comes up in late August and sets the league on fire. Duda is very
> interesting in that he comes from a major college program, has good
> size and has always had the ability to get on base -- but now,
> suddenly, his power has just blossomed. And, considering the dearth
> of lefty power on this team, I could see him taking Carter's spot on
> the bench sooner than later.
>
> And don't forget Niewenhuis, either. He's brought up his K:BB ratio
> (was around 4:1 earlier and is now approaching 3:1) and is slugging
> over .500 at AA at age 22.
>
> When you put F-Mart, Duda and Niewenhuis together, you've got three
> potential power-hitting outfielders -- a true rarity that the Mets
> probably haven't seen in 25 years.
I agree that all three are interesting. Niewenhuis is coming fast,
which I like. An unsubstantiated theory that I've never studied is
the idea that a player moving fast through the system is ultimately
more successful then those that move slower. Intuitively that makes
sense to me, but I have no hard evidence.
> By all indications, Havens was coming along quickly with the bat
> before suffering yet another injury. I don't worry too much about his
> defense because he played shortstop in a major college program and
> because it's his bat that will carry him, if and when he makes the big
> leagues.
Yeah, I don't disagree, but he has to show he can stay on the field
and so far that has not been the case.
KathyGlickstern
[...]
> > You're understating this: Brian Schneider might be the worst catcher
> > in baseball. It's conclusive that he offers little offensively, but
> > his catcher's ERA tends to be a run higher than the other backstops on
> > his team. There's something very wrong with that picture on the
> > whole.
>
> I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but isn't is fascinating how this
> guy keeps getting jobs? The only thing I can figure is that
> management thinks he's a good clubhouse guy or something. He's never
> been a good player.
Everyone likes to talk about how the Phils' big contracts have
handcuffed them going forward (I believe they already have something
like $120-130 million committed next year to only 15 players, meaning,
like the Miami Heat, it's not clear how they're going to fill out the
rest of their roster), but I'm amazed by the multi-year deals Amaro
has given out to guys like Schneider, Baez and Gload. When you
consider that Schneider got more money and job security than Barajas,
you see that Amaro is making Omar look smart.
>
>
>
> > But, that said, there was something probably up with Castro, too.
> > Considering he was a number-one pick who put up killer numbers in the
> > minors, you have to wonder why he's never been entrusted with a full-
> > time job and how off-the-field factors have always seemed to enter his
> > equations.
>
> The Castro thing always fascinated me. I think part of it is that he
> was injury prone and had a 'bad body' which meant management tended to
> undervalue him. I also think there may have been some personality
> issues there.
Beyond him being hurt all the time, there seemed to be the suggestion
that he was a clown who liked to party. That's great for a fourth
outfielder, but not a starting catcher. I also think his injury
profile and his commitment (or lack thereof) to conditioning probably
went hand in hand. I remember when he was dealt, Jerry Manuel said
something to the effect of his attitude was holding him back from
being a starting catcher.
>
>
>
> > I'm actually not opposed to having little-hit veteran catchers if
> > they're serving the purpose of helping the pitching staff. We'll
> > never be able to isolate who or what is responsible for the
> > development of some of the team's younger arms, but I have to wonder
> > whether the same growth would have been experienced with Thole as the
> > #1 catcher. I have no tangible evidence, mind you, but I have to
> > think having Barajas back there is like having a pitching coach on
> > staff; I remember all too well what happened when we left this to
> > Warthen and Santos.
>
> I buy this to an extent, since, as you know, I don't think Warthen
> could teach a fish how to swim. Isn't that where Blanco comes in
> though? His CERA is actually better then Barajas . . . plus, Blanco
> could easily be teaching Thole the tips of the trade while Thole gets
> valuable playing time at the major league level. Blanco dwarfs
> Barajas as a defender. He's the one I'd want Thole to most emulate.
But I don't think Blanco could catch 4-5 games per week, which is
essentially what the Mets need from their mentoring catcher right
now. For better or worse, the Mets are contending this year, which
means they need to get production out of guys like Pelfrey and Niese;
I don't see those two developing into legitimate #2 and #3 starters,
respectively, with Thole behind the plate. What's more, there are
some brutal scouting reports on Thole's defense out there; granted, he
hasn't looked all that bad when I've watched and, maybe, the reports
are based on earlier times when he was first learning the position,
but, even if his handling of a staff improves, there could still be
questions about his defense.
As for his offense, I think Thole is one of the smartest hitters in
the organization, and I believe his SLG will come along with age and
experience. Right now, though, on a contending team trying to
establish young starters, I think he's the wrong fit behind the plate.
[...]
> > I don't think Tejada is ready for everyday play right now -- but his
> > minor-league numbers, especially considering his age, suggest he can
> > be a useful big-leaguer. The real question with him is whether he
> > develops any kind of SLG as he matures, because his glove is fine and
> > he seems to know how to take the occasional walk.
>
> I think he can get on base eventually.
.351 OBP in AA at age 19 and a .341 in AAA at 20? The last time he
played against people his own age, his OBP was over .400. Because
he's been rushed, he hasn't had the chance to put up gaudy numbers
against people his own age, but his early struggles in the bigs at age
20 aren't all that different from those experienced by Luis Castillo
when he was called up. That said, I agree with you that this team
can't afford his bat right now, particularly with other dark holes in
its lineup.
>I just think he's an automatic
> out now. Put him in the middle of the Yankee or Red Sox lineup and
> you can probably survive. The problem is the Mets already have a P,
> RF, and C who can't hit.
I think Barajas offers power. He was arguably one of the most
important bats for the first two months of this season.
It's Frenchy I have the most problem with. And I'm anticipating that
Beltran on one leg will put up better numbers than Frenchy, thereby
making the case for Pagan to get Frenchy's ABs. This may be a career
year for Pagan, but you have to tip your hat to him, being in the top
10 in BA and getting on base 37% of the time.
Now you're adding the 2B. Eventually you
> just have too many outs to provide any consistent offensive support.
> This is not the 1971 Orioles rotation. This rotation and particularly
> this bullpen can't play 2-1 games every night.
>
>
>
> > I put on my Miss Cleo doo-rag and envision Lucas Duda being this
> > year's version of Daniel Murphy: The otherwise-obscure rookie who
> > comes up in late August and sets the league on fire. Duda is very
> > interesting in that he comes from a major college program, has good
> > size and has always had the ability to get on base -- but now,
> > suddenly, his power has just blossomed. And, considering the dearth
> > of lefty power on this team, I could see him taking Carter's spot on
> > the bench sooner than later.
>
> > And don't forget Niewenhuis, either. He's brought up his K:BB ratio
> > (was around 4:1 earlier and is now approaching 3:1) and is slugging
> > over .500 at AA at age 22.
>
> > When you put F-Mart, Duda and Niewenhuis together, you've got three
> > potential power-hitting outfielders -- a true rarity that the Mets
> > probably haven't seen in 25 years.
>
> I agree that all three are interesting. Niewenhuis is coming fast,
> which I like. An unsubstantiated theory that I've never studied is
> the idea that a player moving fast through the system is ultimately
> more successful then those that move slower. Intuitively that makes
> sense to me, but I have no hard evidence.
My unsubstantiated theory, which might be similar to yours, is that a
minor-leaguer on a hot streak can replicate that performance in the
bigs right then and there -- but, quite possibly, not in the years to
come. Think Mike Vail in 1975 or Gregg Jefferies in 1988 or Daniel
Murphy in 2008: There's a certain momentum and confidence these guys
got from doing well in the minors that they were able to bring with
them that season in the bigs, but could never really replicate
thereafter. It's truly a lightning-in-a-bottle thing. I think the
Mets would be smart to try to capture it this stretch drive with
someone like Duda, who is just putting up insane numbers at AAA right
now.
jonathan
> handcuffed them going forward (I believe they already have something
> like $120-130 million committed next year to only 15 players, meaning,
> like the Miami Heat, it's not clear how they're going to fill out the
> rest of their roster), but I'm amazed by the multi-year deals Amaro
> has given out to guys like Schneider, Baez and Gload. When you
> consider that Schneider got more money and job security than Barajas,
> you see that Amaro is making Omar look smart.
Gillick built that team and Amaro is destroying it. The Ibanez deal
was the beginning of the end. Then they trade Cliff Lee for peanuts
this winter because they say they have no money, yet go hand stupid
deals to junk you mention above. This is the mistake people make when
you win. You can't suddenly change your mindset when you win. You're
ALWAYS building. I hate when people talk about these 'windows'. To
me, that's a mistake. Windows can stay open indefinitely if you can
keep your farm system churning out prospects and stop paying for past
performance. Let someone else pay your veteran for how well he
performed for you when there's little chance he can repeat that
performance.
> As for his offense, I think Thole is one of the smartest hitters in
> the organization, and I believe his SLG will come along with age and
> experience. Right now, though, on a contending team trying to
> establish young starters, I think he's the wrong fit behind the plate.
It could be. Honestly I'm bullish on the catcher situation. I don't
know that there is a good answer. At the end of the day though, you
can't have a 5-man lineup, so at some point one of the other
situations (2B or RF preferably) need to start generating some
offense.
>
> I think Barajas offers power. He was arguably one of the most
> important bats for the first two months of this season.
He's had a sub .500 OPS since June 1st. That's horrific. I
understand he had a great May and was decent in April, and I can live
with the crappy OBP, but he's not doing anything at this point.
KathyGlickstern
> > Everyone likes to talk about how the Phils' big contracts have
> > handcuffed them going forward (I believe they already have something
> > like $120-130 million committed next year to only 15 players, meaning,
> > like the Miami Heat, it's not clear how they're going to fill out the
> > rest of their roster), but I'm amazed by the multi-year deals Amaro
> > has given out to guys like Schneider, Baez and Gload. When you
> > consider that Schneider got more money and job security than Barajas,
> > you see that Amaro is making Omar look smart.
>
> Gillick built that team and Amaro is destroying it. The Ibanez deal
> was the beginning of the end. Then they trade Cliff Lee for peanuts
> this winter because they say they have no money, yet go hand stupid
> deals to junk you mention above.
The problem I had with all of this was that they dealt one boatload of
prospects to Cleveland for Lee -- and then dealt another boatload to
Toronto to get Halladay. By virtue of these two transactions, which
only yielded them the benefit of these pitchers one at a time, they
pretty much traded away about 80% of their top-10 prospects. Yeah,
they got some prospects back from Seattle, but they aren't of the ilk
they sent away. And the one they kept through all of this -- Brown?
-- is yet another lefty hitter.
I understand the case can be made that Halladay is the better pitcher
and was available for three years, rather than the five Lee would have
likely wanted, but I think it's a marginal upgrade and it's not a
situation for which you deal away two boatloads of prospects.
Moreover, Halladay has a lot more mileage on his arm than Lee does,
yet Lee has earned some post-season stripes that Halladay hasn't.
And their re-signing of Howard to that $125-million contract could
come back to haunt them. He's a good player, but his game has fallen
since 2006 and 2007. He's already 30, and that contract won't take
effect until he's 31.
Ruben Safir
> What's more, there are
> some brutal scouting reports on Thole's defense out there;
at this point, those reports are old and no longer apply. He has taken
the next step defensively. He certainly seems to handle the Knuckle Ball.
Ruben
Ruben Safir
> This may be a career
> year for Pagan, but you have to tip your hat to him, being in the top 10
> in BA and getting on base 37% of the time.
:)
Victor Diaz...Victor Diaz
jonathan
> It's Frenchy I have the most problem with. And I'm anticipating that
> Beltran on one leg will put up better numbers than Frenchy, thereby
> making the case for Pagan to get Frenchy's ABs. This may be a career
> year for Pagan, but you have to tip your hat to him, being in the top
> 10 in BA and getting on base 37% of the time.
>
It's well documented that the only thing I have a bigger problem with
then Jeff Francoeur is the fact that many Mets fans seem to have an
irrational love for the guy. I am willing to concede that Pagan is
having a good season. I am not willing to concede that Pagan will
duplicate it, and frankly I think Omar should sell high in the
offseason. I'd deal him as quickly as possible. He's arbitration
eligible and I'd try to catch lightning in a bottle and see if someone
will overpay. I can't place good odds on the idea that a guy who has
never hit this well in the minors has suddenly found himself. I think
it's more likely that this is his prime 26-28 years and a decline is
likely.
Ruben Safir
>> It's Frenchy I have the most problem with. And I'm anticipating that
>> Beltran on one leg will put up better numbers than Frenchy, thereby
>> making the case for Pagan to get Frenchy's ABs. This may be a career
>> year for Pagan, but you have to tip your hat to him, being in the top
>> 10 in BA and getting on base 37% of the time.
>>
>>
> It's well documented that the only thing I have a bigger problem with
> then Jeff Francoeur is the fact that many Mets fans seem to have an
> irrational love for the guy.
It starts with Howie Rose...
> I am willing to concede that Pagan is
> having a good season. I am not willing to concede that Pagan will
> duplicate it, and frankly I think Omar should sell high in the
> offseason. I'd deal him as quickly as possible. He's arbitration
> eligible and I'd try to catch lightning in a bottle and see if someone
> will overpay.
I think he will have ONE more good season.
> I can't place good odds on the idea that a guy who has
> never hit this well in the minors has suddenly found himself. I think
> it's more likely that this is his prime 26-28 years and a decline is
> likely.
Victor Diaz...Victor Diaz...Victor Diaz.
Ruben Safir
BTW - Pagan's last two seasons thus far look almost identical...
Ruben
Ruben Safir
Ruben Safir
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/paganan01.shtml#2009-2010-sum:batting_standard
Ruben Safir
want to win. He has been the leading CF in the NL defenisvely as
measured by total zone runs, and especially at the beginning of Beltran's
return, Carlos is not going to be a better CF. Frenchy goes, and Beltran
plays RF for the time being..which happens to be a pretty large RF
anyway. But why put the strain on his legs. Let Beltran worry about
hitting.
Ruben
jonathan
I don't listen to the Mets on the radio. The broadcast doesn't come
in well up here and to be honest this season I decided I wasn't
spending the money to get this team over the internet either through
radio or TV. It's my own little protest I guess that I haven't spend
a penny on the Mets this year.
I was a Howie Rose fan back when he was on Mets extra. I don't enjoy
him calling the game nearly as much. I can completely understand,
though, how he would like Francouer. To be honest, I like watching
baseball via gamecast or such because I don't have to listen to
announcers. There are very few I like. Vin Scully is one of the only
one's left that I truly enjoy listening to.
>
>
> I think he will have ONE more good season.
I'd hate to chance it. He'll be a free agent after 2012 which means
that the Mets still hold his rights for a long time. He's the kind of
player that I think could bring back more then he's worth right now
but if you wait another year and get another .720-.750 OPS with
impending free agency his value will drop like a stone. At .850 with
two more years of arbitration, this is the kind of guy that a team
could do for a young starting pitcher, which would be more valuable at
this point.
I wonder if the Giants would do Jonathan Sanchez for Angel Pagan and
say Bobby Parnell. That would be the kind of deal I'd be looking to
make.
Ruben Safir
>> It starts with Howie Rose...
>
> I don't listen to the Mets on the radio. The broadcast doesn't come
> in well up here and to be honest this season I decided I wasn't
> spending the money to get this team over the internet either through
> radio or TV. It's my own little protest I guess that I haven't spend
> a penny on the Mets this year.
>
> I was a Howie Rose fan back when he was on Mets extra. I don't enjoy
> him calling the game nearly as much. I can completely understand,
> though, how he would like Francouer. To be honest, I like watching
> baseball via gamecast or such because I don't have to listen to
> announcers. There are very few I like. Vin Scully is one of the only
> one's left that I truly enjoy listening to.
>
>>
>>
>> I think he will have ONE more good season.
>
> I'd hate to chance it. He'll be a free agent after 2012 which means
> that the Mets still hold his rights for a long time. He's the kind of
> player that I think could bring back more then he's worth right now
> but if you wait another year and get another .720-.750 OPS with
> impending free agency his value will drop like a stone. At .850 with
> two more years of arbitration, this is the kind of guy that a team
> could do for a young starting pitcher, which would be more valuable at
> this point.
Getting another season with a 125 OPS+ and stellar CF defense is worth
more than any trade value he would have. And I'm quite certain that he
will have one more excellent season.
Did we have a cheesecake bet over Pagan from the start of the season?
BTW - FWIW - Pagan has had a better season then any that Reyes has ever
had, if you look at the stats objectively.
>
> I wonder if the Giants would do Jonathan Sanchez for Angel Pagan and
> say Bobby Parnell. That would be the kind of deal I'd be looking to
> make.
>
>
Neise and Pagan for King Felix?
Ruben
Bill
>> I think Tatis was most useful back in 2008 -- in fact, his late-season
>> shoulder injury was likely a contributing factor to their September
>> swoon.
>>
>> But I disagree with Barry: I don't think it's rosteritis; instead, I
>> don't think Tatis has ever recovered from that shoulder injury. At
>> this point, I'm not sure he ever will.
>
> Tatis is a really good example of a really good Omar idea that he just
> didn't know when to let go of. He's no different from Marlon Anderson
> and Damion Easley and Jose Valentin. I have no problem signing these
> guys on Spring Training invites and seeing what they have and catching
> lighting in a bottle. The problem I have is that Omar has
> consistently held on to these guys and paying them for what they did
> as opposed to what they will do. There are numerous examples already.
Tatis is having shoulder surgery, he's out for the year. Hopefully this
is the end of his Mets career.
Bill
Ruben Safir
> In article
> <016d6654-5d41-431c...@w31g2000yqb.googlegroups.com>,
> spike lee <jamez...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Jul 10, 6:41?am, "POPS" <metfa...@optonline.net> wrote:
>> > for a negative post. The last time I trashed David Wright, he started
>> > hitting and fielding great. Now it is time to say that the Mets are slip
>> > sliding away................
>>
>> last nite, tied with Howard for NL lead.
>>
>> Easy to see Mets problem: Frenchy and Bay don't hit. They gave Bay
>> mega money and he's hitting .260 or so, few HRs, pathetic
>>
>> Sit Frenchy down now, put anyone in. Move Pagan to right when Beltran
>> is ready.
>
> Frenchy is not the problem.
frenchy is the MODEL of the problem with this team. He is a player with
a direct line to Jeff Wilpon who should have been sent to the minors
months ago,
Looks like we are going to see Martinez. Sit back and enjoy the youth
movement. We're going to see a lot of Tejadah, who isn't ready,
Martinez, Davis and Neise, especially with Cora now gone and dwindling
hope for the season.
The weird thing, is that I still think this team can make a run if the
bench is improved, Bay hits and Pelfrey does better.
> He did not sign himself to this team. He did
> not force the Mets to throw needed money at Ollie P. He did not make the
> choices our FO made (and did not make).
>
> The fish rots at the head and the Mets will not be better until the
> Wilpons either sell or take a hands off approach and we get a better GM.
o
I agree there.
>
> harlan
Ruben Safir
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2010 12:17:08 -0700 (PDT), spike lee
> <jamez...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Frenchy is not the problem. He did not sign himself to this team. He did
>>> not force the Mets to throw needed money at Ollie P. He did not make the
>>> choices our FO made (and did not make).
>>
>>doesn't get the 2 out hit....
>
> Or the one-out hit, or the no-out hit.
And he never walks. He is Dave Kingman without the 600 Slugging
percentage power.
Ruben