Gosh, you guys make me laff. I've been saying the same thing for days.
Are we just sore that the TWINS are not playing instead of the Yanks? But I'm not sure I could handle them being there at this time of year between the Gophers, Vikings, Wild, and Timberwolves. Sheesh. It's about time there is a separation between the sports.
I'm a Tigers fan. I wish you guys would have beat the Yankees, and we wouldn't have to worry about it right now. (lol).
Go Phillies.......but, let's face it. Even if the Phils win tonight, they're not gonna sweep the Yankees back home in New York. They're not playing well enough. There's always next year.
On Nov 2, 9:37 pm, jd...@msn.com (Jack Johnson) wrote:
> I'm a Tigers fan. I wish you guys would have beat the Yankees, and we > wouldn't have to worry about it right now. (lol).
> Go Phillies.......but, let's face it. Even if the Phils win tonight, > they're not gonna sweep the Yankees back home in New York. They're > not playing well enough. There's always next year.
The more games they play, the more $$$$s are made!
> On Nov 3, 8:42 am, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > On Nov 2, 10:25 am, powrwrap <powrw...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 2, 8:26 am, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > > > I hate the Yankees.
> > > > I love the Yankees.
> > > I'm not conflicted.
> > > I don't like the Yankees. > > > I don't hate the Phillies. > > > I don't hate the Yankees. > > > I don't like the Phillies.
> > > GO PHILLIES!
> > If I had thought about it longer, I would have written:
> > I hate the Yankees.
> > I love some of the Yankees.
> > I just can't bring myself to hate guys like Jeter and Pettite.
> > brianj
> Upon further reflection, let me say:
> I don't always hate the Yankees, though I sometimes do.
> I can't help but respect some of the Yankees sometimes, for the way > they play the game.
> There. I feel better about it now.
> brianj
Hate is a strong word that loses its impact if overused.
You really are jealous of the Yankees success because they beat the Twins in the playoffs constantly, but with real commitment from management, the Twins could be a real World Series contender. Yet that won't happen. That's why Torii Hunter and Johan Santana went bye bye, and Mauer will be next.
I respect Morneau and Mauer and Gardenhire and I will see them at Hammond Stadium in Fort Myers in March.
> On Nov 5, 12:25 am, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You really are jealous of the Yankees success because they beat the > Twins in the playoffs constantly,
Please show where anyone in this group said they were jealous of the Yankees success.
> but with real commitment from > management, the Twins could be a real World Series contender.
What, like building a new ballpark? Like locking up an MVP first baseman for seven years at $14M a year? Like signing a 16 year old SS to the second highest signing bonus in MLB history?
The Yankees were able to buy another championship (Sabathia, Teixiera, Burnett) because they have the revenues. Like just about every MLB team the Yankees spend about 55% of their revenues on salary. They happen to have the most revenues. Just because somebody may have personal wealth it does not mean they are going to throw it away on high-priced free agents.
> Yet that > won't happen. That's why Torii Hunter and Johan Santana went bye bye, > and Mauer will be next.
Mauer will be signed this off season to a contract extension. Hunter and Santana left because other teams WITH HIGHER REVENUES offered them ridiculous amounts of money.
> On Nov 3, 5:12 pm, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > On Nov 3, 8:42 am, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > > On Nov 2, 10:25 am, powrwrap <powrw...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > On Nov 2, 8:26 am, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > > > > I hate the Yankees.
> > > > > I love the Yankees.
> > > > I'm not conflicted.
> > > > I don't like the Yankees. > > > > I don't hate the Phillies. > > > > I don't hate the Yankees. > > > > I don't like the Phillies.
> > > > GO PHILLIES!
> > > If I had thought about it longer, I would have written:
> > > I hate the Yankees.
> > > I love some of the Yankees.
> > > I just can't bring myself to hate guys like Jeter and Pettite.
> > > brianj
> > Upon further reflection, let me say:
> > I don't always hate the Yankees, though I sometimes do.
> > I can't help but respect some of the Yankees sometimes, for the way > > they play the game.
> > There. I feel better about it now.
> > brianj
> Hate is a strong word that loses its impact if overused.
> You really are jealous of the Yankees success because they beat the > Twins in the playoffs constantly, but with real commitment from > management, the Twins could be a real World Series contender. Yet that > won't happen. That's why Torii Hunter and Johan Santana went bye bye, > and Mauer will be next.
> I respect Morneau and Mauer and Gardenhire and I will see them at > Hammond Stadium in Fort Myers in March.
> AJ- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
I know that what you are saying is conventional wisdom, but the truth is that the Twins offered Hunter and Santana a lot of money. A lot. The organization was not trying to get by on the cheap in either case. You can fault the Twins' front office for many things, but failing to offer these guys really nice contracts is not one of them. You also make it sound like a vice that the organization doesn't have a higher payroll. But the truth is, they just don't have anywhere near the kind of money available for player salaries that the Yankees do. So they have to create winning teams using a completly different model. To an outsider, this model looks like a failure when the Twins lose somebody like Hunter or Santana, but it is just part of the way the system works (though I will amit it hurts when it happens). Sometimes the stars move on, and you have to have thought of that ahead of time, and developed players who can (arguably) take their places.
My sometimes negative feelings about the Yankees are really more about how the team is brought together, because I am a fan of a team that doesn't have the option of going out and signing, for example, CC Sabathia at whatever price he demands. I am not jealous of the Yankees' success. I am just a little miffed that they have an advantage over the Twins that will last forever--an advantage the Twins have to try to overcome every year (Lately, that has not been working out so well.). I don't have anything against the players. As I have said, any baseball fan who doesn't respect and even admire guys like Pettite and Jeter and Texiera should pay closer attention, in my opinion.
> On Nov 5, 12:25 am, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 3, 5:12 pm, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > > On Nov 3, 8:42 am, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > > > On Nov 2, 10:25 am, powrwrap <powrw...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Nov 2, 8:26 am, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > > > > > I hate the Yankees.
> > > > > > I love the Yankees.
> > > > > I'm not conflicted.
> > > > > I don't like the Yankees. > > > > > I don't hate the Phillies. > > > > > I don't hate the Yankees. > > > > > I don't like the Phillies.
> > > > > GO PHILLIES!
> > > > If I had thought about it longer, I would have written:
> > > > I hate the Yankees.
> > > > I love some of the Yankees.
> > > > I just can't bring myself to hate guys like Jeter and Pettite.
> > > > brianj
> > > Upon further reflection, let me say:
> > > I don't always hate the Yankees, though I sometimes do.
> > > I can't help but respect some of the Yankees sometimes, for the way > > > they play the game.
> > > There. I feel better about it now.
> > > brianj
> > Hate is a strong word that loses its impact if overused.
> > You really are jealous of the Yankees success because they beat the > > Twins in the playoffs constantly, but with real commitment from > > management, the Twins could be a real World Series contender. Yet that > > won't happen. That's why Torii Hunter and Johan Santana went bye bye, > > and Mauer will be next.
> > I respect Morneau and Mauer and Gardenhire and I will see them at > > Hammond Stadium in Fort Myers in March.
> > AJ- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> I know that what you are saying is conventional wisdom, but the truth > is that the Twins offered Hunter and Santana a lot of money. A lot. > The organization was not trying to get by on the cheap in either > case. You can fault the Twins' front office for many things, but > failing to offer these guys really nice contracts is not one of them. > You also make it sound like a vice that the organization doesn't have > a higher payroll. But the truth is, they just don't have anywhere > near the kind of money available for player salaries that the Yankees > do. So they have to create winning teams using a completly different > model. To an outsider, this model looks like a failure when the Twins > lose somebody like Hunter or Santana, but it is just part of the way > the system works (though I will amit it hurts when it happens). > Sometimes the stars move on, and you have to have thought of that > ahead of time, and developed players who can (arguably) take their > places.
> My sometimes negative feelings about the Yankees are really more about > how the team is brought together, because I am a fan of a team that > doesn't have the option of going out and signing, for example, CC > Sabathia at whatever price he demands. I am not jealous of the > Yankees' success. I am just a little miffed that they have an > advantage over the Twins that will last forever--an advantage the > Twins have to try to overcome every year (Lately, that has not been > working out so well.). I don't have anything against the players. As > I have said, any baseball fan who doesn't respect and even admire guys > like Pettite and Jeter and Texiera should pay closer attention, in my > opinion.
> brianj
If I remember correctly, Hunter, the face of the Twins organization all those years, and for that, the Twins were offering him a 3-year contract. You can argue money; Angels offered not only more money, but what Hunter wanted, more years. And that's as I said again, to the face of your franchise, who I remember watching in A ball when Fort Myers was the Twins farm team, all he deserved was a three-year contracr.
Santana, same thing in some ways. Was told Twins don't offer 5 or 6- year contracts for pitchers; they don't, it's not what they do. Well, they should have since the Mets offered 6 years. Santana is one of those once in a generation kind of pitchers where you throw such arbitrary "we don't offer those kind of long term contracts" philosophies out the window.
Again, the Twins stuck to their guns and like Hunter, Santana walked as well. AJ
> On Nov 5, 9:45 am, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > On Nov 5, 12:25 am, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 3, 5:12 pm, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > > > On Nov 3, 8:42 am, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > > > > On Nov 2, 10:25 am, powrwrap <powrw...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Nov 2, 8:26 am, brianj <firstp...@turtlecreek.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > I hate the Yankees.
> > > > > > > I love the Yankees.
> > > > > > I'm not conflicted.
> > > > > > I don't like the Yankees. > > > > > > I don't hate the Phillies. > > > > > > I don't hate the Yankees. > > > > > > I don't like the Phillies.
> > > > > > GO PHILLIES!
> > > > > If I had thought about it longer, I would have written:
> > > > > I hate the Yankees.
> > > > > I love some of the Yankees.
> > > > > I just can't bring myself to hate guys like Jeter and Pettite.
> > > > > brianj
> > > > Upon further reflection, let me say:
> > > > I don't always hate the Yankees, though I sometimes do.
> > > > I can't help but respect some of the Yankees sometimes, for the way > > > > they play the game.
> > > > There. I feel better about it now.
> > > > brianj
> > > Hate is a strong word that loses its impact if overused.
> > > You really are jealous of the Yankees success because they beat the > > > Twins in the playoffs constantly, but with real commitment from > > > management, the Twins could be a real World Series contender. Yet that > > > won't happen. That's why Torii Hunter and Johan Santana went bye bye, > > > and Mauer will be next.
> > > I respect Morneau and Mauer and Gardenhire and I will see them at > > > Hammond Stadium in Fort Myers in March.
> > > AJ- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > I know that what you are saying is conventional wisdom, but the truth > > is that the Twins offered Hunter and Santana a lot of money. A lot. > > The organization was not trying to get by on the cheap in either > > case. You can fault the Twins' front office for many things, but > > failing to offer these guys really nice contracts is not one of them. > > You also make it sound like a vice that the organization doesn't have > > a higher payroll. But the truth is, they just don't have anywhere > > near the kind of money available for player salaries that the Yankees > > do. So they have to create winning teams using a completly different > > model. To an outsider, this model looks like a failure when the Twins > > lose somebody like Hunter or Santana, but it is just part of the way > > the system works (though I will amit it hurts when it happens). > > Sometimes the stars move on, and you have to have thought of that > > ahead of time, and developed players who can (arguably) take their > > places.
> > My sometimes negative feelings about the Yankees are really more about > > how the team is brought together, because I am a fan of a team that > > doesn't have the option of going out and signing, for example, CC > > Sabathia at whatever price he demands. I am not jealous of the > > Yankees' success. I am just a little miffed that they have an > > advantage over the Twins that will last forever--an advantage the > > Twins have to try to overcome every year (Lately, that has not been > > working out so well.). I don't have anything against the players. As > > I have said, any baseball fan who doesn't respect and even admire guys > > like Pettite and Jeter and Texiera should pay closer attention, in my > > opinion.
> > brianj
> If I remember correctly, Hunter, the face of the Twins organization > all those years, and for that, the Twins were offering him a 3-year > contract. You can argue money; Angels offered not only more money, but > what Hunter wanted, more years. And that's as I said again, to the > face of your franchise, who I remember watching in A ball when Fort > Myers was the Twins farm team, all he deserved was a three-year > contracr.
> Santana, same thing in some ways. Was told Twins don't offer 5 or 6- > year contracts for pitchers; they don't, it's not what they do. > Well, they should have since the Mets offered 6 years. Santana is one > of those once in a generation kind of pitchers where you throw such > arbitrary "we don't offer those kind of long term contracts" > philosophies out the window.
> Again, the Twins stuck to their guns and like Hunter, Santana walked > as well. > AJ- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
Still, it has to do with what resources are available. If the Yankees agree to pay CC millions of dollars for many years, and he fails to produce, they lick their wounds and try again with somebody else. If the Twins sign Santana for 6 years and his arm falls off after two, they are in deep. And there will be no money to pay anyone to replace him, because he will be sitting on his couch collecting the Twins' money. Because of their limited resources, the Twins are just not in a position to enter into the kind of contracts the Yankees can sign.
Will Joe Mauer be the exception? Maybe. I believe the Twins have to sign him. He knows that, and every Twins fan knows that. That should put him in the driver's seat at negotiation time. But he also wants to win, and that means that the Twins have to be able to afford to build a team around him (and Morneau). If everybody does the right thing, it can happen, and everybody makes money, and the Twins get a good team.
There's no magic to this formula. It's just a lot more complicated trying to build a winning team when you have less money.
> On Nov 5, 11:22 am, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote: > If I remember correctly, Hunter, the face of the Twins organization > all those years, and for that, the Twins were offering him a 3-year > contract.
Three years at $15M a year.
> You can argue money; Angels offered not only more money, but > what Hunter wanted, more years.
Yeah, five years at $18M a year. He's not worth it.
> And that's as I said again, to the face of your franchise,
<psst...."Joe Mauer">
> who I remember watching in A ball when Fort > Myers was the Twins farm team, all he deserved was a three-year > contracr.
He was 32 years old at the time. How many outfielders remain productive past age 35?
> Santana, same thing in some ways. Was told Twins don't offer 5 or 6- > year contracts for pitchers; they don't, it's not what they do.
That's right. Because it's stupid. See Mike Hampton, Kevin Brown, Dontrelle Willis, Barry Zito, Chan Ho Park, Carl Pavano, even Carlos Silva.
> > On Nov 5, 11:22 am, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > If I remember correctly, Hunter, the face of the Twins organization > > all those years, and for that, the Twins were offering him a 3-year > > contract.
> Three years at $15M a year.
> > You can argue money; Angels offered not only more money, but > > what Hunter wanted, more years.
> Yeah, five years at $18M a year. He's not worth it.
> > And that's as I said again, to the face of your franchise,
> <psst...."Joe Mauer">
> > who I remember watching in A ball when Fort > > Myers was the Twins farm team, all he deserved was a three-year > > contracr.
> He was 32 years old at the time. How many outfielders remain > productive past age 35?
> > Santana, same thing in some ways. Was told Twins don't offer 5 or 6- > > year contracts for pitchers; they don't, it's not what they do.
> That's right. Because it's stupid. See Mike Hampton, Kevin Brown, > Dontrelle Willis, Barry Zito, Chan Ho Park, Carl Pavano, even Carlos > Silva.
Mauer is the face of the franchise now, especially with Hunter gone. Torii was until the day he left.
> On Nov 5, 3:17 pm, powrwrap <powrw...@aol.com> wrote:
> > > On Nov 5, 11:22 am, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > If I remember correctly, Hunter, the face of the Twins organization > > > all those years, and for that, the Twins were offering him a 3-year > > > contract.
> > Three years at $15M a year.
> > > You can argue money; Angels offered not only more money, but > > > what Hunter wanted, more years.
> > Yeah, five years at $18M a year. He's not worth it.
> > > And that's as I said again, to the face of your franchise,
> > <psst...."Joe Mauer">
> > > who I remember watching in A ball when Fort > > > Myers was the Twins farm team, all he deserved was a three-year > > > contracr.
> > He was 32 years old at the time. How many outfielders remain > > productive past age 35?
> > > Santana, same thing in some ways. Was told Twins don't offer 5 or 6- > > > year contracts for pitchers; they don't, it's not what they do.
> > That's right. Because it's stupid. See Mike Hampton, Kevin Brown, > > Dontrelle Willis, Barry Zito, Chan Ho Park, Carl Pavano, even Carlos > > Silva.
> Mauer is the face of the franchise now, especially with Hunter gone. > Torii was until the day he left.
> Productive past 35? Here's one: Ichiro; he's 36.
> Not stupid. Here's one: Josh Beckett.
> AJ- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
It's not stupid because it fails every time. It is stupid because it fails too often. It is especially stupid for a team on a smaller budget than the Yankees. I think your examples are evidence against your position. Sure sometimes a team signs a huge long-term contract and everything works out great. But it would be more like an exception than a rule. It was pointed out that not many outfielders are really productive past age 35, and in argument you named one--and he is 36. I am sure there are others past 35 who are hanging in there, but surely you get the point.
> On Nov 6, 3:51 pm, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Not stupid. Here's one: Josh Beckett.
What about Josh Beckett's THREE year contract? For $28M?
I thought the subject matter was long term big buck contracts to starting pitchers. Sorry, this doesn't qualify. Also, he was 27 years old when he got it. How big of a risk is a three year contract to a 27 year old?
He does have a club option for $12M that the Red Sox will surely pick up.
On Nov 6, 6:44 pm, powrwrap <powrw...@aol.com> wrote:
> > On Nov 6, 3:51 pm, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Not stupid. Here's one: Josh Beckett.
> What about Josh Beckett's THREE year contract? For $28M?
> I thought the subject matter was long term big buck contracts to > starting pitchers. Sorry, this doesn't qualify. Also, he was 27 years > old when he got it. How big of a risk is a three year contract to a 27 > year old?
> He does have a club option for $12M that the Red Sox will surely pick > up.
You made my point. I believe Santana was about 28 when the Mets offered him the six-year contract. How big is a risk for a 28-year-old of his skills to have him locked up pitching to 34?
And look, if the Twins are organizationally against a long-term contract like this for even someone like Santana, offer him less years but for alot more money per year. But the Twins don't want to do that; they want to pay a yearly salary that would be comparable to a long-term contract, but only extend it for 3 years at most.
> On Nov 6, 10:24 pm, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> You made my point. I believe Santana was about 28 when the Mets > offered him the six-year contract. How big is a risk for a 28-year-old > of his skills to have him locked up pitching to 34?
It's a huge risk. Huge. Oh look, he got injured this year and is having surgery. See what I mean?
> And look, if the Twins are organizationally against a long-term > contract like this for even someone like Santana, offer him less > years but for alot more money per year.
The Twins offered 4 years at $20M a year. At the time, had Santana signed that deal, he would have been the 2nd highest paid player in baseball (tied with Manny and Jeter, with A-Rod being #1 highest paid.) Is there something wrong with an offer that would make a person the 2nd highest paid player in the game?
I predict the Mauer contract will be at least a five year deal for at least $100M. Will that satisfy your spending/longevity requirements?
> > On Nov 6, 10:24 pm, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > You made my point. I believe Santana was about 28 when the Mets > > offered him the six-year contract. How big is a risk for a 28-year-old > > of his skills to have him locked up pitching to 34?
> It's a huge risk. Huge. Oh look, he got injured this year and is > having surgery. See what I mean?
> > And look, if the Twins are organizationally against a long-term > > contract like this for even someone like Santana, offer him less > > years but for alot more money per year.
> The Twins offered 4 years at $20M a year. At the time, had Santana > signed that deal, he would have been the 2nd highest paid player in > baseball (tied with Manny and Jeter, with A-Rod being #1 highest > paid.) Is there something wrong with an offer that would make a person > the 2nd highest paid player in the game?
It's wrong if you wind up getting six years at nearly $23 million. And if you are referring to the $20 million, you mean he's be the 2nd highest for one year at $20 million. There are a good number of contracts - again, it's the length - that are better than $100 million.
> I predict the Mauer contract will be at least a five year deal for at > least $100M. Will that satisfy your spending/longevity requirements?
It won't for Mauer because he and his agent and the going rate for a CATCHER of his quality, at his age, is easily 6-7 years at $22-$24 million. You'll see. And then like with Santana, when the Twins are turned down because you tried to lowball him (hell, if you were offering $100 million what's another $37?) you'll wind up signing someone like you did when the Twins then inked Livan Hernandez for what was it, $7 million a year, only to release him in mid-season. You don't want to pay top dollar for a marquee player than spend a good chunk of money on junk because you needed a starter, as you will need for a catcher. That's where the problem with baseball, and teams who complain about salaries, lie. It's not with the Santana contract offers, its the fact that the Livan hernandez's of this world get offered $7 million and Gil Meche $55 million for five years by teams who think they're spending wisely by buying second-rate talent. AJ
> On Nov 7, 8:25 pm, atjar <a_jar...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > On Nov 7, 4:19 pm, powrwrap <powrw...@aol.com> wrote: > > I predict the Mauer contract will be at least a five year deal for at > > least $100M. Will that satisfy your spending/longevity requirements? > It won't for Mauer because he and his agent and the going rate for a > CATCHER of his quality, at his age, is easily 6-7 years at $22-$24 > million. You'll see.
That would be the 2nd highest contract in baseball history, behind A- Rod.
> And then like with Santana, when the Twins are > turned down because you tried to lowball him (hell, if you were > offering $100 million what's another $37?)
Umm...37 percent higher?
> you'll wind up signing > someone like you did when the Twins then inked Livan Hernandez for > what was it, $7 million a year, only to release him in mid-season. You > don't want to pay top dollar for a marquee player than spend a good > chunk of money on junk because you needed a starter, as you will need > for a catcher. That's where the problem with baseball, and teams who > complain about salaries, lie. It's not with the Santana contract > offers, its the fact that the Livan hernandez's of this world get > offered $7 million and Gil Meche $55 million for five years by teams > who think they're spending wisely by buying second-rate talent.
Blah, blah, blah. Non sequitur. You really do enjoy moving the goalposts and changing your argument, virtually on a post-by-post basis.
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