Cardinals flawless fundametals and execution

[john smith]

Down 2-1 and with runners on second and third with nobody out Molina
grounds out hitting the ball the other way for one run. Then Freese gets
the other run in with a sacrifice fly. No hits but two runs cross the
plate! Tell me how many times Reds executed this scenario this year?
Probably none.

Fundamentals are preached and emphasized by a good manager and coaching
staff every day! Then it is reflected by the team every day on the
field.

[tmbow...@yahoo.com]

If these flawless fundamentals make the Cardinals a better team than the Reds, then why did they finish 9 games back?

Just wondering.

[Tom]

He didn't say that. The Reds won the division because they won more
games than the Cardinals, How they won those games is what's at issue.

Tom

[john smith]

More flawless execution tonight.

Wainwright settles down after Pence homer not allowing anymore runs.

Then up 4-1, he sets aside Posey and Sandoval in key 6th inning with
first and second and one out.

Then Wainwright continues by putting down 6th inning sac bunt. Jay
singles two more runs in, Cards up 6-1 effectively ending the game and
probably series.

[Tom]

I was surprised Matheney left Wainwright in to pitch the 7th. Matheney
has become boring and predictable, something that was never a concern
when Tony La Russa was managing.

Let's hope the Cardinals beat the Giants today and win another WS for
the NL Central. Eventually, the Central will start getting the respect
it deserves.

Tom

[john smith]

I really take a lot of good natured poking out from my father who is a
Cardinals fan. He told me today, "what time do the Reds play today?" He
also said, "how is that home field helping you now?" Of course I cringe
for the moment and then laugh.


But heck, the Cardinals deserve to be where they are. The team has
overcome alotta adversity and didn't sit by and make excuses like many
teams and their fans seem to do when they get dealt a bad break. They
play very sound fundamental baseball. My only beef with them right now
is they have a self admitted steroid user and the poster boy for
steroids as their batting coach in McGuire.


If you are a baseball fan, you love watching well executed
fundamentals. I am enjoying the Cardinals brand of baseball right now.
You complain about Metheney, sorry I have to laugh. You should be
thankful you have him as a manager rather than a Baker. A guy who is
just given a pass and is told he had many excuses in blowing a two
nothing lead. Baker may not be fully responsible for the collapse. But
he had a huge hand in nurturing the collapse. Talk about predictable,
this guy managed like he did every game this season. Unfortunately
somebody forgot to tell Dusty this was the post-season. Good luck the
rest of the way!

[john smith]

Poor decision by Lynn not to take the sure out at first and throwing it
away at second. I fault the decison above all, errors happen.

[Tom]

Of course, you're right... no matter how frustrating I find Matheney,
it could be much, much worse.

I just don't get why and how Baker keeps getting hired, especially
after the carnage he left in wake in Chicago.

Enjoy the ribbing from your dad... there's nothing like talking
baseball with your dad, no matter which teams are involved or what
your age is.

Tom

[Tom]

On Oct 20, 10:50 am, eddyg...@msn.com (john smith) wrote:
> Poor decision by Lynn not to take the sure out at first and throwing it
> away at second. I fault the decison above all, errors happen.

Another source of frustration for me at the hands of Matheney...

When the Cardinals had bases loaded and one out, he should've pinch
hit for Lynn. Had the Cardinals taken the lead, I think they would've
won... the bullepn has completely stymied the Giants.

The bullpen was completely rested thanks to Wainwright and Salas the
night before. For me, that was the turning point in the game... I'm
convinced Lynn took that failed AB to the mound with him...

Tom

[john smith]

Looks like Cardinals will be in the same position the Reds were in 11
days ago. Only they have to win their game on the road now. They will
kick themselves for not taking care of business at home verse Zito. The
Reds wil be forever haunted by the wasted Bailey gem in game 3.


Today baseball has become very mediocre and unpredictable. I am banking
on the Cardinals in game 7 just simply because they handle the game
mentally as well as any team. Win or lose, they are playing with house
money having already won two World Series the past 6 years. Any Reds fan
would have taken a game 7 tomorrow with 2 recent rings in their pocket.

[Tom]

As has happened a few times this season, the bats went cold at the
wrong time.

However, I place the loss of this series squarely on the shoulders of
Mike Matheney. In game 5, the Cardinals had bases loaded and 1 out, he
should have pinch hit for Lance Lynn. The bullpen was fresh, thanks to

Wainwright and Salas the night before.

A couple of runs in that inning probably would've won the game. I also
believe Lynn was rattled after hitting into the DP and then going out
to pitch.

Tom

[john smith]

Cardinals with a huge collapse, unforgivable. Just like the Reds did,
inexcusable.

Giants now win 6 straight post season elimination games. Dusty has
accumulated 10 of these such games over the years and has managed to go
1-9 as a manager in these games.

Alotta bouncing balls off the plate tonight. That's why I always preach
urgency and take care of business in the present because tomorrow may
never come. Congrats Giants......Small consolation, I predicted Giants
to get to the World Series at beginning of play-offs.,,,,,

[David Short]

On 10/19/2012 12:46 PM, john smith wrote:
> But heck, the Cardinals deserve to be where they are. The team has
> overcome alotta adversity and didn't sit by and make excuses like many
> teams and their fans seem to do when they get dealt a bad break. They
> play very sound fundamental baseball. My only beef with them right now
> is they have a self admitted steroid user and the poster boy for
> steroids as their batting coach in McGuire.
>
>
> If you are a baseball fan, you love watching well executed
> fundamentals. I am enjoying the Cardinals brand of baseball right now.
> You complain about Metheney, sorry I have to laugh. You should be
> thankful you have him as a manager rather than a Baker. A guy who is
> just given a pass and is told he had many excuses in blowing a two
> nothing lead. Baker may not be fully responsible for the collapse. But
> he had a huge hand in nurturing the collapse. Talk about predictable,
> this guy managed like he did every game this season. Unfortunately
> somebody forgot to tell Dusty this was the post-season. Good luck the
> rest of the way!

Sounds different now doesn't it?

dfs

[David Short]

On 10/21/2012 10:46 AM, Tom wrote:> I just don't get why and how Baker

keeps getting hired, especially
> after the carnage he left in wake in Chicago.

The connection between the Dusty Baker that left the Cubs and the one
that manages the reds seems tenuous at best. Baker was known for abusing
starting pitching their and we have not seen any of it. To put it
politely the Cubs were a bunch of thugs where I think only cardinal fans
would describe the reds that way.

Baker made a bad situation worse with the cubs by sitting passively and
collecting paychecks after he had given up on the team and the team had
given up on themselves. We DO see echoes of that passive nature now and
then. In the playoffs Dusty was very reactive and certainly had rounds
left in his bullpen chamber that never got fired.

> Enjoy the ribbing from your dad... there's nothing like talking
> baseball with your dad, no matter which teams are involved or what
> your age is.

This is true.

dfs

[john smith]

And its not all about Dusty and how he managed the last 3 games.
Although he managed the relievers like it was the regular season.




It is about Dusty being Dusty. The stifling of young talent by catering
to washed up old guys. His total ignorance of his players lack of basic
fundamentals. His teams poor approach to hitting overall. His love of
bunting with a team who can't bunt. His nonsense of playing a player
like Stubbs all year long. His propensity to stick with starting
pitchers two to three batters too long. The poor base running. The lack
of urgency. I mean I could find some other things, I am sure I could.



It is a broken record David. Then you have a media in Cincinnati who
doesn't question him at all. It gets to the point of absurdity. I don't
know if I could watch that next year. They won 97 games yeah... but the
culture of baseball he cultivates will never win in the post season.
Yeah they won 97 games but those 13 Astros wins won't be available next
year.



What sticks in my craw the most is that Bailey Game. Bailey pitched the
best game of his life especially considering the magnitude of the game
and his stuff, never seen better from him. It was wasted. This whole
season was wasted on a top of the order Dusty played until the cows came
home. A faith in a mythical player named Drew Stubbs. His blatant non
use of the bullpen in games 4 or 5 was insane. Sorry, the Reds will
never get the health or performance from their starting pitching that
they received this year. It was all wasted on a manager who is full of
excuses. A manager who likes to create media circuses about All Star
selections. A manager who was more concerned about getting Cueto twenty
wins than preparing him for the post season. A manager who sat his best
clutch player during the month of September wishing and hoping on a
Rolen whose power has been dormant for 2.5 years.



To me the biggest problem this team beyond its lack of fundamentals is
their horrible approach to hitting. They don't know how to work counts
or grind out ABS. They are totally clueless when they get cripple
pitches. Besides Votto pre injury, none of them use the gaps. Good
hitters use all fields but especially the gaps. Red's hitter take the
approach of pulling the ball except for Hanigan and Votto. You can't win
this way. None of them hit behind runners in key situations. None of
them get that key SF fly, opposite field grounder or long fly out to
move up runners. Sorry this is all accepted and never corrected by a
manager named Baker.


I don't need stats to see this kind of baseball doesn't get you very
far. Discerning eyes are all you need to follow this game. And maybe
some experience of playing organized ball for like 20 years as an adult.


Sorry nothing has changed here. The Reds won their first two playoff
games in 17 years and choked away a once in a lifetime opportunity. The
Cardinals won 5 playoff games this year and got beat in a seven game
NLCS with two recent World Series rings in their back pockets. No,
nothing is really different. The Cardinals can't win a World Series
every year.


A Dusty Baker managed team just doesn't do many things well. The
pitching masked alotta problems this year. Those problems will be
magnified you next year I guarantee it!

[tmbow...@yahoo.com]

On Tuesday, October 23, 2012 11:05:02 AM UTC-7, john smith wrote:
>
> It is about Dusty being Dusty. The stifling of young talent by catering
>
> to washed up old guys.

I keep hearing this one, from you and a few others, but I think youre wrong about it. Give me some examples.

Here, i will give you some counter-examples.

Mike Leake has been in Dustys rotation since the 3rd week of Spring Training 2010.

Cozart started at SS in his rookie year. Cozart would have been the starter for the secondhalf of last season, except he got hurt.

Mesoraco got 40% of the paying time when he was up here, despite the presence of veterans Navarro and Corky at AAA and the fact that Mes should have been optioned at the end of June.

Frazier essentially played full-time in his rookie season, largely because of injuries to Votto and Rolen. But he did start over Cairo and Valdez. True that Frazier didnt make the club out of ST, but he was up by mid-April.
Also true that Frazier didnt start in the postseason. But he was clearly outhit by washed-up Scott Rolen in the 2nd half of the season:

Rolen - .297/376/473
Frazier - .269/321/455

with Frazier totally cratering in September

.176/235/257

Despite rumours to the contrary, Dusty did not "shut down" Frazier in September (as some writer on Redlegnation claimed). Frazier had 81 plate appearances in Sept/Oct.

Stubbs has been the starter in CF since the first day he was called up. Dusty has given Stubbs more than enough time to develop and i can find zero evidence of Dusty playing veterans over Stubbs and "stifling" this young talent.

The least experienced member of this years bullpen was given the closers job in May. Thats Chapman.

My guess is that you are referring more to Chris Heisey. Heisey fanboys need to get over this guy. He is not a major league starting outfielder. He had his career year in 2011. He has peaked and will never do enough to warrant a starting job. I certainly hope he does. But i wont put money on it.
Heisey had the inside track on the leftfield job and lost out to a guy who was hitting .206/292/393 at the end of May. That was Ludwick. Heisey couldnt ourperform that weak line. Dusty made the call to stick with Ludwick. He defended him for 2 months and kept claiming that Ludwick would be fine once he got his swing back. Everybody, including you and I, scoffed at that. Thats just Dusty being Dusty and playing his veteran. In the end, fortunately for all of us, Dusty was right and everybody else on the planet was wrong.

Maybe you were thinking of Janish. Dusty played the Renterias and Cabreras when Janish was clearly the better glove. You can make a better argument there, but Janish was never projected to hit the in the majors at all. In any event he still loses his job to Cozart, a rookie.

> His total ignorance of his players lack of basic fundamentals.

I dont think he's ignorant of that at all. He's an old-school player from the 70's. In fact, he is alot more like you than you seem to want to admit. You have a disdain for stats and modern approaches to building teams. So does Dusty. You place alot of credence on playing small ball and on outdated and disproven notions such as "clucth" hitting. So does Dusty. Thats makes both of you out of step with the times.
The main difference is that Dusty seems to understnd the importance of starting pitching more than you do. In fact, i'm sure of that.

> His teams poor approach to hitting overall.

Not really Dustys fault. He doesnt draft talent, make trades or sign the hitters. He doesnt develop talent in the minors. He isnt the hitting coach and probably couldnt replace Jacoby on his own.

I think its a mistake to try to change hitters too much. I suspect that Stubbs biggest problem is the consternation everybody has over his strikeouts. There was nothing wrong with the player we saw in 2010. I say just let him be and let him go back to what worked for him. I dont have the numbers to prove it but i feel pretty certain that Stubbs takes more pitches in 2012 than he did in his previous 2 years. It was like he was more focused on working walks rather than waiting for a pitch in his comfort zone. Its commendable, but it isnt working for him.

I feel the same way about Bruce. Bruce is not Paul O'Niell or Joey Votto. He is more like GriffeyJr. He is a natural pull hitter. I'm not saying that he shouldnt learn to hit outside pitches to left field. But that should not be his bread and butter, and he should not be up there focused on that. Pitchers will make mistakes and leave pitches in on him. He needs to be ready and able to jerk those pitches over the right field wall. Thats his money right there. 3-run homeruns win alot of games. Stop trying to make him into Votto. Dont even compare him to Votto.

> His love of bunting with a team who can't bunt.

The NL success rate for sacrice bunts was 71%. The Reds finished at 66%. Cueto tied for the lead league in sacrifices with 17. He is a good bunter. latos was 6th with 10, so he must be decent. The rest of the team cant bunt very well.
Did Dustys love of the bunt cost the Reds wins? Possibly. Did it cost them a significant number of wins. Here we define "significant" as being more than 1. Probably not. Would it have made any difference in the postseason if Dusty had bunted less often. No. If anything there is the question that he didnt bunt enough against the Giants. I'm referring to the Hanigan called third strike atbat.

The Mets were succesful 80% of thier bunt attempts. Did it help them win games. Probably not.

> His nonsense of playing a player like Stubbs all year long.

Who should have played CF? Heisey? Wrong answer. Heisey finished the season at -0.3 WAR. That is not an everyday player in the majors. That is a AAAA player. Accept it. Dusty played Stubbs because he had to. Heisey never did enought to claim the job. Stubbs can at least give you top-notch defense in CF, which helps the pitching alot.

In 2012, the Reds were 74-49 (.602) in games where Stubbs started. That means that they were 23-16 (.590) when he didnt start. So they actually were slightly better off starting him than not.

With Heisey starting 46-34 (.575)
Without 51-31 (.622)

If Heisey were the better option, then the record should start to reflect that. It didnt. Relatively small samples i know. But I see no evidence anywhere that the Reds had a better option in CF than Stubbs. Sad but true.

> His propensity to stick with starting pitchers two to three batters too long.

This is your most ludicrous claim. The Reds led the majors in pitching. They didnt have any significant injuries during the regular season. None of the starters, with the possible exception of Cueto, was worn out by September. If anything, Bailey and Latos hit thier strides in September.

Baker, Price and the bullpen coaches did an awesome job with the staff. From start to finish.

> The poor base running. The lack
>
> of urgency. I mean I could find some other things, I am sure I could.

I'm sure you could to. However, the team you descibe above could never have won 97 games. This team did. That is a fact, and facts trump opinion. Therefore, they are not the team you describe above and your assesment of Dustys management is seriously flawed.

I think you need to take a year or 2 away from watcing the Reds. Follow some other team closely and you will begin to realize that thier manager does an ever-increasing number of odd things, just like you feel Baker does. I think its only natural for many people. Eventually, they get to the point where they feel that they could do a better job with the team than the manager could. Or for that matter, they could bring in any random guy off the streets and get a better performance than the actual manager.

>
> It is a broken record David.

There are only 2 broken records here. One is you complaining about a team that far exceeded yours or anyones expectations.
The other broken record is me pointing this out to you.

>Then you have a media in Cincinnati who
>
> doesn't question him at all. It gets to the point of absurdity. I don't

Now youre just being ridiculous. John Fay, Paul Daugherty etc found fault all year. Thats thier job. I dont listen to the Cinci talk shows anymore, but thats all they ever do anyway is magnify minor issues to try and create controversy and generate ratings. Theres an entire blogosphere that critiques Dustys every move. Brennaman asked Dusty to his face about some of these issues (lack of clutch hitting, bunting, pitcher moves, etc...). Theres no end to it. Managers are under far more scrutiny than they have ever been. Most of it is unjustified.

Are you a frequent listener to these talk shows? I bet you are. Do yourself a favor and turn them off. Most of the callers are idiots. Many of the host on local channels need ratings to justify thier jobs and will say anything. Some are outright clowns when they get a mic in front of them.

I listen mainly to shows on the XM channell. They have thier downsides too, like hearing hour after hour of talk about the Red Sox problems (who cares) or about how great the Braves are (they arent).
But the really interesting thing about the XM shows is that you get to hear callers from around the country call in to talk about thier local teams. And this should be the real eye opener. You see John, there are people just like you all over the country who are convinced that the manager of thier favorite team is as big an idiot as you believe Dusty to be. The number of calls i heard from Tiger fans demanding the firing of Jimmy Leyland was ridiculous and it easily rivaled the Baker bashers numbers. Most of the XM host i listened to were as dismissive as i am, and were just as flummoxed by the amount of discontent. I think that i am safe in saying that at any given time, a minimum of 30% of a teams fans want thier manager fired. I hate to say it, but i am more and more convinced that most baseball fans are clueless malcontents.

A week before the playoffs, i'm in a bar talking to a guy who is a Padres fan. We get onto the subject of Dusty and i'm talking about how maligned Dusty is. He starts talking about Bruce Bochy. Bochy is an ex long-time Padres manager. His opinion of Bochy was that "Bochy is quite possbly the worst manager in baseball history and even he was able to win a world series". Thats paraphrasing but eseentially accurate of what he said. I was like "Huh?"

I've gotten the the point where i dont think there are any good managers left in the game, at least according to the standards of the average fan. Angels fans i know out here say that its time for Scioscia to go. Red Sox fans hated Francona and cheered when he left. I'll bet that there were Cards fans eager to see TLR shown the door and the same could be said of Braves fans with regard to Bobby Cox. You just cant satisfy anyone.
I've said this before, but i bet that if we were all talking baseball in the 70's when Sparky was manager, we would have strong opinions of whether he should be fired or not, especially after losses in 2 world series and the embarrasing lack of hitting against the Mets in 73.
But we look back in time with Rosy glasses and tend to remember mainly the good things. i think eventually we will pine for the days of Baker long after he has been gone and has been replaced by a string of failures that keep us lost in the wilderness.

Speaking of which, wtf with David Bell going to work with the Cubs. I thought that he had been promoted to manage Louisville last year with the intention of grooming him a a possible Reds manager. He was the supposed heir-apparent. I guess Dustys extension and Louisvilles crappy 2012 showing ended that. Bring back Rick Sweet.

>
> know if I could watch that next year. They won 97 games yeah... but the
>
> culture of baseball he cultivates will never win in the post season.
>
> Yeah they won 97 games but those 13 Astros wins won't be available next
>
> year.

Then they will only win 90 games and go into the playoffs as a wildcard. I will be happy. You will complain. So things will be as usual.

>
> What sticks in my craw the most is that Bailey Game. Bailey pitched the
>
> best game of his life especially considering the magnitude of the game
>
> and his stuff, never seen better from him. It was wasted. This whole
>
> season was wasted on a top of the order Dusty played until the cows came

Again, please tell us who should have batted at the top of the order. People bitched all year about the fact that Phillips was batting leadoff. Phillips was moved there in September and the offense was as bad as it had been all year. Phillips hit

.202/254/298

in the leadoff spot. Thats in 28 games. Phillips is a career .322 OBP guy. He's topped .350 only once in his 11-year career. He's not a tablesetter. He is a number 6 hitter. Accept it.
Its fine to criticise the use of Stubbs and Cozart. They all stunk. But someone has to hit in that spot. Phillips may have been the best option. But he isnt anywhere near ideal and it still isnt acceptable. Thats not on Dusty. Thats on Walt.
I said at the beginning of the year that the Reds lineup was Joey Votto and a bunch of number 6 hitters. Nothing has changed. Meanwhile, the fans clamor for Josh Willingham.

>
> A manager who sat his best
>
> clutch player during the month of September wishing and hoping on a
>
> Rolen whose power has been dormant for 2.5 years.
>

We must have been watching two different teams.

September/October 2012

Frazier 22 games 18 starts 81 plate appearances .176/235/256

Rolen 16 games 15 starts 58 plate appearances .222/259/370


Far from being sat. Frazier was playing semi-regularly, and he played more than Rolen did. Alot more. The "best clutch player" on the team had 5 RBI in September.

>
>
> To me the biggest problem this team beyond its lack of fundamentals is
>
> their horrible approach to hitting. They don't know how to work counts
>
> or grind out ABS. They are totally clueless when they get cripple
>
> pitches. Besides Votto pre injury, none of them use the gaps. Good
>
> hitters use all fields but especially the gaps. Red's hitter take the
>
> approach of pulling the ball except for Hanigan and Votto. You can't win
>
> this way.

And yet, they did.

>
>
> I don't need stats to see this kind of baseball doesn't get you very
>
> far. Discerning eyes are all you need to follow this game. And maybe
>
> some experience of playing organized ball for like 20 years as an adult.
>

You mean, somebody like Dusty Baker?

>
> Sorry nothing has changed here. The Reds won their first two playoff
>
> games in 17 years and choked away a once in a lifetime opportunity. The

Once in a lifetime opportunity? Are you saying that the Reds wont make the playoffs any time during the next 75 years or so?

>
> A Dusty Baker managed team just doesn't do many things well. The
>
> pitching masked alotta problems this year. Those problems will be

"masked problems"?

The lack of offense was obvious coming into the season. Even then, its not as bad as you make it out to be. The club offense is about average all things considered.

They need better hitting for average and more OBP skills from a few positions. They could use a righthanded power hitter capable of 30+ HR. They need table setters who can get on base for Votto. The offense should revolve around Votto. Guys ahead of him who can get on base. Guys behind him who can get long hits when Votto is on base, which he is alot.
They dont need bunters or slap hitters or "clutch" hitters, whatever those are. They need hitters period.

>
> magnified you next year I guarantee it!

Things tend to regress to the norm after an outlier season. The pitching is more likely to get worse than better. The hitting could go either way.

We at least agree that there are problems in the organization related to the quality of hitting. You seem to focus on situational stuff. I think the problem is more the lack of good hitting in general, and the lack of OBP skills. Alot of this is driven by the Reds lack of lefthanded batters, but this isnt just a problem with the big league club. I think this problem exist all through the minors. The Reds dont have many prospects above Billings level that i can see who look like they have potential to be good hitters at the major league level. The pitching prospect situation still looks good. The hitting does not.

[Chuck]

Hmm glad to see you guys are still here. I will try to get on PCM later. This smart phone is smarter than me. Go baily